Looking For Good Shuai Jiao Book

[ninthdrunk]

Any suggestions. I really just want it to compare techniques with applications I have from pa kua, or to give me ideas for new applications from pa kua.

Thanks.

[Water Dragon]

Not sure about good books. I really like Cartmell's Effortless Combat Throws, but that's not SC specific, and is really more theory. It's a great book if you already know what you're doing.

I can recommend some good video's though. go to www.combatshuaichiao.com and get any of the videos there. Quality stuff.

If you're just looking for raw technique, and don't care about origin, there's some real good Judo books out there.

[golden arhat]

try and find a good shuai jiao teacher rather than a good book
books are ok for revising what you know already and going over things u may have missed and finer points

but if you want your ba gua/shuai jiao apps to work u cant just think of them u have to have actual experience and feel proficient with both

try western wrestling books if u do need them they are very concise direct and effective

hmm ba gua wrestling ??
i think lancashire turns would fit well with ba gua

hmm
i have ideas

[Water Dragon]

golden arhat is correct. If you can't find good Shuai Chiao (trust me, I know how hard it can be) I'd recommend looking for a Judo Dojo. The two arts are very similar, and it's not hard to match up SC training with Judo throws. It actually works out quite well training like that.

[ninthdrunk]

Thanks, y'all for the responses so far. I guess I should have been more clear. I already have what I feel like is a pretty good arsenal of pa kua applications, but after watching some shuai jiao techniques, I was pretty amazed that a good majority of them were techniques I already had found in pa kua. I really just want a book or two (from other throwing arts as well) to see what other moves are similar to pa kua movements.

So, not really looking for instruction, just looking for similarities. I will say though, that after seeing the shuai jiao, I wouldn't mind trying it. If for no other reason than to learn how to safely use my own applications...so much of it gets dumped off because I know I couldn't safely do it with a partner. Not trying to make a "too deadly argument," but more of a "lack of understanding" argument!

Thanks again, and if you have ANY other references in mind, throw 'em my way.

Ben

[Water Dragon]

If that's all you need, Bro, you should be able to find what you want on YouTube.

[Three Harmonies]

Read waterdragons first post! Tim's book is bar none the best on the subject.
Jake :cool:

[ninthdrunk]

In Cartmell's book, are there depictions of the throws?

As for youtube. It's kinda funny. I can't find much in the way of just basic clips of techniques. Lots of free wrestling, but not a lot of technique clips.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Videos/dvd's are much better than books because you can actually see the dynamics of the throws, the unbalancing and such.

Books are great as a reference for "minor" details that tend to become major details -
Foot placement, hip placement, center-of-gravity, etc...

In terms of throwing with a jacket, judo is the way to go if for no other reason than the simple fact they you can find a judo dojo anywhere.

SC can give you the complete package and there is where it is "better" than Judo.

IF you can find a good teacher.

[Water Dragon]

SC can give you the complete package and there is where it is "better" than Judo.


I've been doing Judo for about 2 years now, Did SC for about 4. This statement is not true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've been doing Judo for about 2 years now, Did SC for about 4. This statement is not true.

I am a shodan in Judo, woudl you prefer "more complete" ?
I am refering to the "complete" shuai Chiao.

[Water Dragon]

I hold my blue in SC, so I probably hold more rank in that art. I don't think either art is 'more complete'. You get some striking training in SC, but you get groundwork in Judo. SC has the forms, Judo has Uchikomi. Both arts have similar, yet different, equipment training. I simply disagree with your statement, it's not what I've found.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hold my blue in SC, so I probably hold more rank in that art. I don't think either art is 'more complete'. You get some striking training in SC, but you get groundwork in Judo. SC has the forms, Judo has Uchikomi. Both arts have similar, yet different, equipment training. I simply disagree with your statement, it's not what I've found.

SC has IP , IV has Weapons and such...I don't see how Judo is more complete.
SC striking is also more effective than Judo's has ever really been since after WW2.

[Water Dragon]

I gotta go to work, Bro. I'll write back tonight.

[Ben Gash]

In Cartmell's book, are there depictions of the throws?

As for youtube. It's kinda funny. I can't find much in the way of just basic clips of techniques. Lots of free wrestling, but not a lot of technique clips.

Here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ashwix

[Water Dragon]

SC has IP , IV has Weapons and such...I don't see how Judo is more complete.
SC striking is also more effective than Judo's has ever really been since after WW2.


OK. I have a little time before Judo so I can respond to this. My stance is not that one is more complete than the other. My stance is that you can't call one more incomplete than the other.

First, I wouldn't go to Shuai Chiao to learn striking. You can get a lot of combinations, and a lot of good sparring in, but you're not going to become a striker in a Shuai Chiao class. If you do, it's gonna take a long, long time.

Same thing applies to groundwork in Judo. You'll learn it, but not to the sophistication of a BJJ guy, it's also gonna take a lot longer.

I went from straight Shuai Chiao for 4 years, to training MMA and Shuai Chiao at the same time for two. I also did 3 years of BJJ before I came to Judo. That's what I'm basing my experience on. I know what I got from each art, and how they influenced each other.

Back to the discussion.

SC and Judo are both fundamentally throwing arts. That's what they specialize in.

I wouldn't go to SC to learn weapon (especially knife or gun) defense either. My old SC coach also did Kun Tao. Wanna talk scary stuff? To this day I might throw someone if they come at me with a knife, but I'll use the Kun Tao way of defending it. I like my odds better.

Anyway, you go to Judo or SC to learn to throwing. That's what you're gonna get good at if you train right. If you want to learn to strike, you go learn that. If you want to learn groundfighting, you go learn that. Then you bring it back with you.

Mebbe it was different even 100 years ago, but now we have ready access to experts in every form of unarmed martial arts. Why not go to the best if you have the opportunity? To me, anything else is selling yourself short.

[Water Dragon]

Here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ashwix

Man, I'm gonna try that tonight! We have this BJJ guy with a wicked ouchi Gari He fights crouched, since he's BJJ. I bet if I get that grip I can hit a Sasae (Forward March), O Soto (Diagonal Cut) or mebbe even an Uchi mata (inner thigh lifting). I'll let you guys know how it works.

[Water Dragon]

So that technique didn't work so well.

[bodhitree]

Don't blame the technique, techniques require lots of repetition to be useful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK. I have a little time before Judo so I can respond to this. My stance is not that one is more complete than the other. My stance is that you can't call one more incomplete than the other.

First, I wouldn't go to Shuai Chiao to learn striking. You can get a lot of combinations, and a lot of good sparring in, but you're not going to become a striker in a Shuai Chiao class. If you do, it's gonna take a long, long time.

Same thing applies to groundwork in Judo. You'll learn it, but not to the sophistication of a BJJ guy, it's also gonna take a lot longer.

I went from straight Shuai Chiao for 4 years, to training MMA and Shuai Chiao at the same time for two. I also did 3 years of BJJ before I came to Judo. That's what I'm basing my experience on. I know what I got from each art, and how they influenced each other.

Back to the discussion.

SC and Judo are both fundamentally throwing arts. That's what they specialize in.

I wouldn't go to SC to learn weapon (especially knife or gun) defense either. My old SC coach also did Kun Tao. Wanna talk scary stuff? To this day I might throw someone if they come at me with a knife, but I'll use the Kun Tao way of defending it. I like my odds better.

Anyway, you go to Judo or SC to learn to throwing. That's what you're gonna get good at if you train right. If you want to learn to strike, you go learn that. If you want to learn groundfighting, you go learn that. Then you bring it back with you.

Mebbe it was different even 100 years ago, but now we have ready access to experts in every form of unarmed martial arts. Why not go to the best if you have the opportunity? To me, anything else is selling yourself short.

I would agree with your generalizations.
There are notable exceptions, but in general, you are quite correct.

[bodhitree]

counter to ouchi gari (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm) is ouchi gaeshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/ouchigaeshi.gif)


You could also try Tai Otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.htm) or uki otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm)

Do lots of still repetitions and get good at them that way before expecting them to work in sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

counter to ouchi gari (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm) is ouchi gaeshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/ouchigaeshi.gif)


You could also try Tai Otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.htm) or uki otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm)

Do lots of still repetitions and get good at them that way before expecting them to work in sparring.

Mifune used to say that the moment he moves, throw him.
Of course this was Mifune so...:D

[Water Dragon]

The grip is too easy to get out of. It worked for about 3 seconds before the guy figured out all you need to do is swivel your head and your out. You could fight it, but this technique felt real defensive to me. It just doesn't lend itself well to attacking. I bet it would work if you got it and went for the throw immediately, but if you miss, you can't do much with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The grip is too easy to get out of. It worked for about 3 seconds before the guy figured out all you need to do is swivel your head and your out. You could fight it, but this technique felt real defensive to me. It just doesn't lend itself well to attacking. I bet it would work if you got it and went for the throw immediately, but if you miss, you can't do much with it.


maybe using it when the guy tries for some sort of "duck under" and is commited?

[Mas Judt]

WD - it's all about removing the triangle point on him as soon as the grip is applied - if he is defensive, it could work - if he pulls his head away, let go with the right hand grip, and wrap/turn the head - turn it into mopping/head turning.

This app is just using a momentary mopping to execute a dragging throw. It's clever, but the opportunnity needs to be there for it to work. (just like everything else.)

[SevenStar]

SC has IP , IV has Weapons and such...I don't see how Judo is more complete.
SC striking is also more effective than Judo's has ever really been since after WW2.

judo hasgroundwork, sc does not. neither are known for their striking. I would not call one more complete than the other. iron palm or not, how many sc guys are known for their striking ability?

[SevenStar]

Same thing applies to groundwork in Judo. You'll learn it, but not to the sophistication of a BJJ guy, it's also gonna take a lot longer.

depends. at one of the clubs I train at, about 40% of our time is spent rolling. at the other, it's like 5%. still less than the bjj classes, but not so much less that they can't keep up on the ground.

[Mas Judt]

My Shuai Chiao teacher always encouraged us to improve our striking game by studying other arts such as Muay Thai or Xing yi. His feeling was you get more time in on those skills by studying with people where it is thier focus. He worked with us to integrate it. He felt, as I do, that having throwing skills at the core of your art you are in the best position body skill wise aganst most other specialties - but you need to have a solid working understanding of those other skills or you will have problems.

In my experience, what WD is certainly correct as generalizations. I'm not sure what a 'complete' art is - and I'm not sure if any method could fulfull that concept or any player could truly be complete - as a martial art only really exists when it is played, and humans are simply not perfect - we all have limitations.

The 'complete' martial art line is something I always thought was just stup!d.

In my experience - I have done little to no BJJ, my long ago Judo experience served me well when combined with some Silat ground work. Since BJJ is built from Ne Waza, this makes sense. Had more problems with the Sambo guys where I could not see the attach pattern - whereas Judo ne waza contains the essential DNA of BJJ. Just an observation.

[Water Dragon]

maybe using it when the guy tries for some sort of "duck under" and is commited?

WD - it's all about removing the triangle point on him as soon as the grip is applied - if he is defensive, it could work - if he pulls his head away, let go with the right hand grip, and wrap/turn the head - turn it into mopping/head turning.

This app is just using a momentary mopping to execute a dragging throw. It's clever, but the opportunnity needs to be there for it to work. (just like everything else.)

OK, a few things. At first, I was worried that going over the guy's head would cause him to shoot in for a single. That's not the case in a gi cause I had a good grip on the sleeve, which prevented the shot. What bothered me about it is there was no way to offensively maintain that grip. I could do it defensively, but I caught myself playing the Taichi following game.

I was going for mopping (well, it was Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi actually), but I do it off a wrong side grip with a SC flavor, usually off O Soto. It didn't lend itself well to the rotation. I can see where it would work if you're better than the other guy and can hit it immediately. Problem was, the guy I was with was a Blackbelt who took gold in the Texas State this year. I actually did catch him with Sasae once last night, but not off this grip.

I was using my right arm as the 'elbow arm', and my right side felt completely open to a counter. It felt like he could duck under and take my back completely, and I was gonna get suplexed. I don't think it would have taken him long to figure that out either, which is why I abandoned it.

So I guess I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying there's a lot of danger in the grip portion of the technique. If the guy gets around you, he's gonna completely dominate you're outside gate, and I couldn't see much I could do about it.

[Water Dragon]

My Shuai Chiao teacher always encouraged us to improve our striking game by studying other arts such as Muay Thai or Xing yi. His feeling was you get more time in on those skills by studying with people where it is thier focus. He worked with us to integrate it. He felt, as I do, that having throwing skills at the core of your art you are in the best position body skill wise aganst most other specialties - but you need to have a solid working understanding of those other skills or you will have problems.


This is pretty much the sum of it from the man who taught me this idea.

[Water Dragon]

counter to ouchi gari (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm) is ouchi gaeshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/ouchigaeshi.gif)


You could also try Tai Otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.htm) or uki otoshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm)

Do lots of still repetitions and get good at them that way before expecting them to work in sparring.

Bro, that would work if I were an Ouchi guy. I'm an O Soto/Sasae/Harai Goshi guy. I've countered O Uchi with Uchi mata before, but I can't pull off Ouchi.

[Mas Judt]

Heh,when i was in Judo as a kid, I was a osoto/sasae/tai otoshi guy... although ouchi was good against people without confident footwork... real good with that sacrisice throw too.. i forget the name - the one similar to a shoulder throw. but you roll with the oponent.

[Water Dragon]

This guy today hit Ouchi off a bearhug and turned it into Uchi Mata mid air. It was a crazy throw.