Concerning Luohan Xinggong Duanda - a reply to Ghostexorcist

[mantis108]

1) What is the publication history behind the Luohan Xinggong Duanda? Was it actually published in the 18th century? Some pages mention it was published on the “sixteenth day of the third month of the spring of 1794.” I am primarily interested in the poem that mentions the (fictional) gathering of the 18 masters.

As far as I am aware, the author of Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu (manuscripts) was a native of Shandong using the alias Sheng Xiao Daoren. He lived in an area west of Mt. Lao in the Qingdao peninsula. Daoren is an honoray title given to respected and knowledgeable people (ie a scholar). It does not indicate or denote a Daoist person. Sheng Xiao Daoren claimed that he gathered and edited the manuscripts from the teachings of Fuju of Shaolin temple. The first edition was written likely around 1762 CE in Sheng Jing which was then the capital of the Manchurian territory. He claimed that one of his student took the original there. He (or his acquiantence/student) then had to draft the second edition (possibly the 1794 version) out of memory and he edited in and out some material. Given the number of versions available at present time, "his explanation" seems to be logical.

The references and quotes that are used in the manuscripts suggest that he could have been once studied for national military exams but he might not have qualified for an officier commission. So he became a martial arts teacher as customs at the time dictated that he would be awarded a job as such.

A word about Fuju of Shaolin temple - this is more than likely a borrowed name or taken as a pronunciation variant from Abbot Fuyu (Xue Ting He shang - Snow Court Monk) of Northern Shaolin during Yuan dynasty. Fuyu was in charged of building a Shaolin temple in Helin (somewhere in the modern day inner mongolian territories). There are 7 Shaolin temples in total (Henan Shaolin is the oldest). Helin Shaolin is the "Northern Shaolin Temple" in history since it is the northern most geographically. Fuyu later retired to Henan Shaolin temple during his old age. It would have been impossible for a martial arts gathering during the Yuan dynasty because Han people were forbidden to practice martial arts and having gatherings in fear of insurgence.


2) Has there ever been an English translation of the Luohan Xinggong Duanda?

My Kung Fu brother and good friend, Kevin Brazier, who also frequents this forum, is working on an English translation of this.


3) You once said that 1/3 of the 18 masters were from fictional novels: Lin Chong and Yan Qing (Water Margin) & Emperor Taizu , Han Tong, Zhang En and Huai De (Fei Long Quan Zhuan). I’ve read material that mentions the martial prowess of Li Chong, Yan Qing, Song Emperor Taizu and Han Tong. But I don’t know that much about the fictional martial arts sills of Zhang En and Huai De. Does the Fei Long Quan Zhuan portray them as good boxers?

If memory serves, Zhang En in the novel is said to be the incarnation of a God of fortune (the martial - black tiger). He's not a good boxer at all. Huai De or Gao Huai De was a general during Song Taizu's time. I don't remember what exactly his role was in the novel but I am pretty sure he was in there.


4) Has there ever been an English translation of the Fei Long Quan Zhuan. If not, do you know where I can find a regular copy of it?

Sorry, I don't know of any English translation of the novel. But you can try to google a copy using the Chinese (copy and past). I found one that way.


5) I’ve noticed that the Tanglang Quanpu (1935) by Cui Shoushan is often confused for the Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Why is that? Does it share similar information?

Cui Shoushan used material from his teacher Song Zide. There are also elements of the Louhan Xinggong Duanda. There is an intimate relationship between Luohan Xinggong Duanda and Tanglang Quan of Liang Xuexiang (1810 - ? CE). In Liang Xuexiang's other manuscripts (ie Ke Shi You Yong), there is an entry called Shou Fa Zhong Lun (Summary of Hand Method) A.K.A Tanglang Shou (Mantis hands). This entry has elements of the 8 Hard 12 Soft found also in the Xing Shou Gang Mu (index of boxing). BTW, Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da might have been the cousin style of Hua Quan of Gan Feng Chi in Jiangsu region and Hong Quan of Henan region. The Qigong component of the LHXGDD, 18 Luohan Gong, is in mind full of typical "southern" charateristics.


Different topic…

1) On a separate note, have you ever heard of the wuxia tale called the 金台传奇 ? If you have, do you know where I can find a copy of it.

There is a comic book about Zhou Tong called the 周侗传奇 and it supposedly incorporates characters and storylines from the 金台传奇 and the Water Margin. I would like to find Zhou's comic book as well.

Sorry, I don't have any info to offer on these.

warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I elaborated what I have shared on a Mantis forum and on the Shaolin board here on KFM to address your questions in general.

Creation myths in Kung Fu are often meant to address the obscured beginning of the styles. This happens a lot because Chinese history isn't as peaceful and straight forward as most history books would want you to believe. There are long periods of chaotic and random chances which encouraged proliferation of systems and styles often for enconomic or survive reasons. A long story short, Northern Mantis in Shandong, like many other martial arts that come into exsitence arround late Ming and through Qing dynasty, is IMHO indeed a northern adepation of southern methodology.

This has always been my position regarding Fuju. Fuju is IMHO a fictional character based on the real historical person of Fuyu (1203-1275 CE) .

That aside, let's move onto martial traditions.

IMHO there are 2 main pugilistic traditions in China. These traditions were used in training military and para-military (ie militia, militant cult, etc...) I am sure there are many others that go under the radar; however, the two traditions that I am putting forward are better documented than most. So we will have to bear in mind that we do not disregard oral traditions but we need more that just that to draw a more accurate picture of early martial arts.

It is believed that Tongbi (through the arms), which is also known as Changquan (Long fist) methodology, has a long history going back to the times of Spring-Autuum and Warring-States period. There are some evidences to suggest that it was the preferred method for training the troops during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Tongbi and Changquan are interchangeable designations IMHO since it is common in Chinese culture to call one thing with different names. Tongbi would have been a more formal or academic name; while Changquan would have been a popular usage amongst martial artists (ie Song Taizu and his peers) in my mind. This tradition has a strong base in Shangxi, Hebei and Szechuan provinces. Note that these provinces are north western and south western locations. Much of the physcial confrontations of China with foreign powers prior to Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644) happened mainly from the western fronts.

It is say that in the travels of Jue Yuan, during Jin Yuan period, he visited mainly the western territories until he reached Lanzhou, Xianxi where he met Li Shou who has a friend Bai Yufeng that is originally from Shanxi Taiyuan. While it is logical to think that Bai Yufeng could have "Tongbi" or rather some kind of boxing training when he was in Shanxi, it is also possible that the boxing style that he's brought with him to Shaolin is more in line with Xin Yi Liu He or some type of animal based arts that is also quite old and western terrritory based. We also need to note that Yuan dynasty builded a few more Shaolin temples throughout China. One of them happens to be in Shanxi Taiyuan. Yuan dynasty also restricted martial arts practices by Chinese civilians.

IMHO Tongbi as a term would have been like modern day term boxing in the western territories of China during and throughout Song, Yuan and Ming periods. So to distinguish one style from another you would have to add another designation such as Hong Dong, Bai Yuan, liang Yi, Du Liu, Wu Xing, etc... Note that Hong Dong is pretty much the only one that is named after a specific region in Shanxi. The other designation that are more "attribute" inclined didn't come out until Qing dynasty.

So the question is why Shanxi Hong Dong is so important to Tongbi that a style is named after it?

It so happened that Shanxi, during the chaotic period between Song and Jin Yuan times, was relatively better economics wise. Harvesting was good in Shanxi even during the Yuan dynasty. This provided stability and drew immigrants and refugees from other areas. When Zhu Yuanzhang (Ming Taizu) reunited the country he made some important policies that made a great impact in Chinese psyche that we can found traces of them in our folklores and pop culture even today. One of these policies was massive relocation of the populace. He made an edict to relocate people (mainly from the Shanxi region) to other places in China. The centre for carrying out of this edict is Hong Dong in Shanxi. There is an old tree in front of a temple that marks the beginning of the forced march of the legislated migrantion to repopulate the "poorer" regions of China during the early Ming dynasty. Hong Dong Tongbi is likely a folk response to help those who emigrated to other regions (Henan province is a possible location) to cope and to never forget their roots.

In the Luohan Xinggong Duanda, Taizu Changquan and Han Tong Tongbi in my mind are used to bring out, highlight or emphasize the section containing Lian Quan (linked fist) which is the main entry method of the "style" in the book. Just as Wang Lang Tanglang is to bring out the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" (Discour of Hand Method) section that is meant to be mid to close range techniques after the gap is breached. The 18 family sonnet is not meant to be a legend IMHO rather its function in the book is to bring out different technical sections of the book.

Regarding the southern methodology:

However, this doesn't mean that there's nothing happening in the south. Ming dynasty encountered major Japanese pirate raids along the eastern coastal regions and also southern regions (ie Fujian and surrounded area and as far north as Shandong). There is a strong martial tradition in southern areas such as Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian, Nanjing, etc. This tradition is known as Duanda (short strikes) and is indigenous to the southern countries in China.

It is of note that Zhejiang area used to be the ancient fief of Yue during the Warring States period. So people there are no strangers to warfare and their indigenous martial arts caught the attention of mid to late Ming (1500s and onwards) Generals including Tang Shunzhi, Yu Dayou and Qi Jiguang. I believe even the Daosit Zhuangzi (369-286 BCE) mentioned a tale about a lady of Yue and her sword fighting ability. I am of the opinion that Kung Fu (not equivalent to traditional or modern Wushu) as a discipline is really based in an ancient believe system and philosophy since Xia dynasty (Neolithic and Early Civilsations periods) that is inherited mainly in the south. This means Zhejiang could have been the source of this tradition. Fujian beginning a transit; while, Jiangxi is the hub and Guangdong being the end zone, where there is always a strong Daoist contingent and following.

The Daoist Neigong stuff is quite evident in the 18 Luohan Gong that is an integral part of the Luohan Xinggong Duanda.

The following is more geared towards praying mantis:

This system usually goes under two different designations in the past, one is Xing Quan (phase fist) and the other is Fanziquan (flip and turn fist). When the longfist and short strikes traditions met in Shangdon roughly beginning to mid-Ming dynasty (1368 - 1500s CE) due to migrations of refugees and redeployment of troops, there began a fusion that later came to known as Luohan Xinggong Duanda which became one of the indigenous pugilistic styles of Shangdong that inspired modern day Shandong Tanglang especially of the Liang Xuexiang (1810-? CE) lines that I would call Greater Meihwa Line. Unfortunately, we have but a book with numerous versions that is called Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu (A.K.A Shaolin Authentic) as a possible source of origin to work with and not much physcially reminence of its existence is available. BTW, this is where the legend of Wang Lang came from. However, there's little doubt in my mind about the southern connection especially with the 18 Luohan Gong portion of LHXGDD for I believe that particular portion as well as some hands/fighting combinations with strategies survived (might have been modified) in the GML as San Hui Jiu Zhuan Luohan Gong and Tanglang Shou (loose hands not the form).

I'd say the following with a caveat (there really isn't substantial phyiscal proof of connections or relationships other than similarity found in training protocols) that Xing Quan as it went north to Jiangsu and Henan from Zhejiang, it became Huaquan and Hongquan. As it went south to Fujian, Jiangxi, and Guangdong, it became White Crane (Fujian), Hung Gar or Wing Chun in Guandong, and Hakka styles (Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, Bak Mei, etc) in the East River region of Guangdong. Hakka/Kejia (guest people) are mainly migrants from the north. Migrations happened in phases as early as Han dynasty (approx. 200 BC). Hakka spirtual or religious practices are generally in line with Shamanistic Daoism especially those sects there are found in the south Such as Jiangxi Long Hu Shan or Juerong Miao Shan. Their loyality to the family, which is the backbone of traditional Chinese culture, is unquestionably strong. We must understand that traditional Chinese sociology is in fact expressed in a chain such as individual + family + country + world (nations). When you are a "guest" people to survive in a rather hostile (pun intended) "country" you must rely on the kinship of the family in order to make it through. This is why Men Pai (system and style) as well as lineage is so important to them. Their spirtual believes also help them to cope with the otherwise hopeless situation. When the going is tough the tough goes to breathing. This is why San Zhan (3 battle) forms is so important to these arts because the only thing that you would have left with sometime really is your own breaths.

We could built a circumstantial case of a connection base on evidences between virtually any and all styles of Kung Fu but we can't possibly prove it or disprove it due to a lack of unfallible solid proof IMHO.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Fu Yu from the Yuan Dynasty times, I see nothing anyplace anywhere that says he brought martial scholars together to develop new Shaolin ideas.

I don't see anything anywhere that suggests the he has been conflated with this mystery Fu Ju from the Song Dynasty era.

Everything I have seen said about this mystery Fu Ju, which HAS to be a nickname of course, is that this person was a totally different person from Fu Yu.

Fu Yu is famous for being a non-martial monk that was held in high regard by the Mongolians and he was able to speak on the Buddhists behalf and win their case before the court. There is lots of factual info about him that exists and his life was well documented. Nothing ever mentions him working with martial artists, other than maybe he hired some guards to protect the Buddhist temples from robbers and rampaging taoists.

Fu Ju was never mentioned as part of any religious activities, he is only mentioned as being from the Song dynasty and a martial monk, not a religious monk, who worked with a series of martial arts experts.

Supposedly there is data out there about this event happening during Zhao Kuan Yin's time, that he called the experts to Shaolin, and these people developed a series of routines, from Tai Tzu Chang Quan Yi Lu to other routines.
Everyone mentioned in relation to this gathering of masters is always from Zhao Kuan Yin's time.

In my opinion, Fu Ju us a nickname for someone that we have lost their real name and he worked with Zhao's friends to develop the early song dynasty sets that start arising from there. These sets all have movements that are interchangeable with each, meaning their sequence can be changed, can be done 2 man (like many ancient sets from after the start of the song dynasty), and drills are a major part of their training. the sets are just a memory device to keep the new composite techniques together so that they don't get forgotten.

Nothing out there found so far suggests that they are the same two people, especially since one is from Yuan dynasty and one is from Song dynasty, in fact or traditional anecdotes.