Whats the most effective way of developing the Tonic Muscles (stabilisers)?

[Crosshandz]

The subject says it all. Share the fruits of your training please.

[5Animals1Path]

Every range, from every angle.



IE> Diamond pushups, squat w/ legs together, reverse crunches (leg lifts). The same goes for weights, but I'd be more carefull with changing range and angles with those if you're not pretty knowledgeable about 'em.

[viper]

Well there are a wide variety for my legs i do stance traing on air cushins like the ones you find at gyms an it def helps build up endurance an stabilty whilst adding a extra dimension.Doing some activtys with eyes closed say kicking helps improve balance and also makes the muscles stabilise. The best way I can describe is to do exercises with unstable either foundations of weights an makes the situation more unstable an a bit less ridged (excuse spelling). Rock climbing is a good one for shoulders pherhaps if you consult your physio they pherhaps could enlighten you further hope ive been some help.

[bodhitree]

Full body, dynamic lifts: Deadlifts, Rows, Power Cleans, Squats (and variations), Overhead squat, overhead press, bench press.


Always use freeweights and not machines. Machines limit the range of motion and don't recruit as many stabalizers.

[golden arhat]

steroids LOL

jk

[mickey]

Greetings,

Crosshandz, there are three, well established, disciplines (outside of the martial disciplines) that train the stabilizers:

1- Yoga

2- Ballet

3- Gymnastics



Emerging Disciplines:

Kettle Bell (one may argue that this is a re-emerging discipline)


Emerging Concepts:

Core training: This appears to have been pioneered by Paul Chek that works the core (back and abdominals) and develops it into a stabilization tool for movement.



The simple approach:

Take a look at what your performance level is and strengthen all aspects of it.


One component they all share:

They all require consistent practice.


mickey

[kwaichang]

Mini Tramp single leg stance with eyes closed NONE BETTER KC

[IronFist]

What are "tonic muscles?"

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if i understand what your shootin for id definately say the oly lifts.

[bodhitree]

powerlifting of course, but other ways


Pilates, Grappling, Yoga (as mentioned before), Acrobatic stuff, Copeira (sp?),

[Mr Punch]

What are "tonic muscles?"Nobody's answering you Iron. Let me have a go: they're the new black in exercise... a couple of years ago people would have been talking about training tendons or upper or lower or left or right abs, or lower biceps etc, but now we are all talking about training the stabilizers... the small connective muscles, between the er... you know. Those. And they are called tonic muscles because they... tone your er, other muscles.

Got it?!

OK, frankly, I'm not sure. I'm wavering between thinking it's a load of old c0ck and it being just common sense like, maybe, this:

My answer: I would have thought you would train them by training your 'normal' big muscles carefully, starting with light weights to make sure you're not straining any connective tissue, and concentrating esp on exercises that you can superset which work things like the rotator cuffs. In short, lift big, but work up from small - don't overdo it.

[Becca]

Mine core has gotten much better since I started working "oly lifts". (though using very light weights as I don't want to hurt myself) The better I get at lifting, the more weight I add. the more I add the better stronger my back and abs are durring group calistenics. The better my callistenics, the ****her I can get into group class without being muscularly exhosted...

Yoga has help alot with stability in awkward (sp?) poses that you get in some TCMA animal forms. I used to sometimes have my feet slip out from under me if I didn't land just right from jumps into a low lunge stance, for instance. Now I can catch myself so even a bad landing is a stable one.

And one of my favorites is swiss ball training.:)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Crosshandz, you might be interested in this:

http://www.bodyblade.com/

mickey

[cjurakpt]

functional stabilization trains your ability to utilize muscle contractions efficiently to maintain the center of gravity within the base of support, to react quickly and not to overcorrect, because the closer you are to the ege of your COG, the more correction you need to get back, but have a worse lever arm to do it (needing more strenght and having to overcome a greater degree of inertia) and the more likely you will have innacurate (over) correction when doing so (possibly due in somepart to the fact that the vestibular system and the proprioceptive system can have conflicting information going to the overall postural response, because they process info at different speeds; but anyway...)

so it doesn't seem that you are necesarily concerned re: small versus large muscles, but instead are concerned with eccentric function of anti-gravity extensors (anterior tibs, quads, glutes, abs, lower traps and sub-capital felxors) in relation to their individual force couples (agonist / antagonist) and also how they relate throughout the entire kinetic chain; true, you want to have cervical flexion coming from short neck flexors versus long ones (SCM, scalenes), but you need good glutes to have aproper postural response, and you also need a robust set of muscularture around the ankles, including anterior tibialis (from), posterior tibeialis (inside), peroneals (outside) and gastroc / soleus (rear);

training functional stabilization is best done under circumstances where you have to balance dynamically while performing functional tasks - hence the whole trend of doing plyometric type work while standing on an unstable surface; but you can also get this effect other ways, such as by running on uneven terrain, working against active resistance of a partner, etc.

postural re-ed methods such as yoga and Alexander or Feldenkreis are good because they retrain the proprioceptors to give you more accurate information, probably by resetting the muscle spindle threshold (Myotactic Reflex Arc) so that the muscle fires when appropriate rather than too early because the MRA is hypersensitive to any sort of movement or too lae because the muscle is held in a state of hronic low grade contraction; it also clears out local tissue congestion, which increases the ability of the muscle spindle to accurrately sense velocity dependent length tension changes, and thus have a muscle fire appropriately

[Oso]

word...next question?

;)

not completely on topic but...


I've just changed the pushup routine in my kids class. Only 2 of the kids can do a proper push up...it's a combination of lack of arm strength and an extreme lack of core strength (identified by all the butt's in the air). So, for a couple of weeks we have been having them do static holds at the top, middle and bottom of the pushup range but completely focusing on the correct body and head posture. I have them do 15 second holds at each level with 15 sec rests between...maybe not terribly scientific but they have gotten better at holding w/o shaking or falling down. Given that they are only in here twice a week we are going to do this the rest of the summer and then go back to trying actual push ups again.

[bodhitree]

word...next question?

;)

not completely on topic but...


I've just changed the pushup routine in my kids class. Only 2 of the kids can do a proper push up...it's a combination of lack of arm strength and an extreme lack of core strength (identified by all the butt's in the air). So, for a couple of weeks we have been having them do static holds at the top, middle and bottom of the pushup range but completely focusing on the correct body and head posture. I have them do 15 second holds at each level with 15 sec rests between...maybe not terribly scientific but they have gotten better at holding w/o shaking or falling down. Given that they are only in here twice a week we are going to do this the rest of the summer and then go back to trying actual push ups again.

sounds good, add a minute or 30 second planks and some 6 inches or boat sits (if they play little league football they may be familiar already).

[Becca]

Don't know what most call these, we called 'em Hello Dolly's. They work the core very well.
Starting on the back w/feet together -
1) feet 6 inches off the ground
2) spread feet apart as far as you can get them
3) bring them back together.
4) lower back to the ground.

To spice it up or add challenge, raise the head, don't lower feet all the way back to the floor, put hands on abdomin rather than the floor and have the kids "feel" what muscles are contracting. Lots of ways to stir it up and any kid can do them.

[Oso]

sounds good, add a minute or 30 second planks and some 6 inches or boat sits (if they play little league football they may be familiar already).

not these kids. I just discovered one today that can't do a full sit up...went to holding leg lift at 6" w/ head off ground...

what are you calling '6 inches' and 'boat sits'

I do a series of leg lift variations including just holding at 6" off the ground.

don't have any idea what a boat sit is though?

[bodhitree]

Six inches: holding the legs six inches off the ground (lying on back)

Boat sits: holding the legs and shoulders off the ground (basically lying on the lower back)

some people hold boat sits more upright, but I consider it more challanging to have the legs six inches and the shoulders maybe 3 or 4 inches off the ground (arms extended over head).

Start off with 15 seconds, go to 20, 30 etc. Build them up.

[Oso]

Six inches: holding the legs six inches off the ground (lying on back)

ok, the 'rest' position for leg lifts. ;)

Boat sits: holding the legs and shoulders off the ground (basically lying on the lower back)

gotcha, what Fish at trainforstrength.com calls a 'v-up'

some people hold boat sits more upright, but I consider it more challanging to have the legs six inches and the shoulders maybe 3 or 4 inches off the ground (arms extended over head).

the arms above the head would definitely add tension.

Start off with 15 seconds, go to 20, 30 etc. Build them up.

I've always done leg lifts with head off ground...my wrestling coach stepped on us if we put the head down.


yea, we're taking them slow. I've pretty much stopped our 'traditioinal' kung fu warm up with the kids...they just don't have the balance, coordination or strength. we've got them doing jj's, pushups, crunches and full sit ups, bodyweight squats, bootstrappers and lunges for warmup...just 25 jj's and 5-10 of the others.

kid's just don't play hard enough these days...I like the new campaign I've seen: "Play 1 hour every day" or something like that...can't remember who the cartoon character sponsering it is.

[Becca]

Wow! A kid who can't even one sit up? Most babies can do that by 6 months! Time to take away the play station, or rashion it out. Say 1 hour of playing hop-scotch for 1 hour of play station.:eek:

One I see my son's class doing is alagators. You know, drag youself down the room with your hands while pointing the toes strait back. Sifu has the kids stay on thier toes only, but you could probably work them up to that point.

[TaichiMantis]

word...next question?

;)

not completely on topic but...


I've just changed the pushup routine in my kids class. Only 2 of the kids can do a proper push up...it's a combination of lack of arm strength and an extreme lack of core strength (identified by all the butt's in the air). So, for a couple of weeks we have been having them do static holds at the top, middle and bottom of the pushup range but completely focusing on the correct body and head posture. I have them do 15 second holds at each level with 15 sec rests between...maybe not terribly scientific but they have gotten better at holding w/o shaking or falling down. Given that they are only in here twice a week we are going to do this the rest of the summer and then go back to trying actual push ups again.

Planks are good precursers to learning full pushups. Start toes and forearms, then go to toes and arm extensions. Sounds like you are on your way. Try some side planks also, first forearms, then full arm extension.

[TaichiMantis]

Take the core strenght test! (http://www.calorieking.com/tools/etrainer/core-strength.php)

Some other links you might find helpful...

Basic core strength workout (http://www.calorieking.com/workoutroom/workouts.php?workout_id=3)

Intermediate (http://www.calorieking.com/workoutroom/workouts.php?workout_id=4)

Advanced (http://www.calorieking.com/workoutroom/workouts.php?workout_id=1)

Basic balance workout (http://www.calorieking.com/workoutroom/workouts.php?workout_id=10)

Intermediate (http://www.calorieking.com/workoutroom/workouts.php?workout_id=11)

[bodhitree]

What I learned a V-up is where you start in a boat sit position and then come up and touch your fingers to toes (legs extended of course).

[Oso]

Wow! A kid who can't even one sit up? Most babies can do that by 6 months! Time to take away the play station, or rashion it out. Say 1 hour of playing hop-scotch for 1 hour of play station.:eek:

One I see my son's class doing is alagators. You know, drag youself down the room with your hands while pointing the toes strait back. Sifu has the kids stay on thier toes only, but you could probably work them up to that point.

yep, just the one kid and he's got other issues. mostly, he just don't give a fvk. I know that sounds harsh but I've been working with this kid for 4 months now. He's bright, he's not dumb though I'm not sure he's smart...he just doesn't care. I've been able to get him fired up but if I'm not pushing him...he just don't care enough to do anything on his own.

yea, we do alagators in my grappling class...'cept I just call it 'cleaning the mats' :D

[Oso]

Planks are good precursers to learning full pushups. Start toes and forearms, then go to toes and arm extensions. Sounds like you are on your way. Try some side planks also, first forearms, then full arm extension.

yea, I occasionally do all that...one of my students does it all the time on her own...as far as the kids go...I've got them twice a week for 45 min each time...only so much I can do and still teach 'kung fu' ;)

[Becca]

yea, we do alagators in my grappling class...'cept I just call it 'cleaning the mats' :D
You gotta love those kinds of exersizes. They are anything but boring.:p

We call cleaning the floor where you drag whole body with the fore arms. Garter is where you drag yourself with the hands. And Sifu's requirement is that you do so in a full plank, supporting yourself on jut the top of the feet and hands. Add that with duck walk, bunny hop, ans walk throughs, you get a very intence, some what silly class.

Sifu starts pulling these out durring class time, we know we're in for sweeps in the next few classes.:D

[bodhitree]

In judo we call those mat drags, plus it simulates pulling a gi...

[Becca]

... The simulat all kinds of dragging, 'specially when the floor is dry and you are damp.:eek:

[Oso]

Becca, i misread you...our 'mat cleaning' is the same...I guess I'm not quite getting what you are calling alligators.

we'll do 'shrimping' drills and 'butt scoot' drills and 'sit out' drills in my grappling class.

[No_Know]

Use chairs or the wall. Wall stand three shoes away elbows in/down; hands(palm centers) at ear level (x amount); Then lock out as a break then fold or bend (heads turn because your face is so close to the wall) as a break (five counts). Then adjust hands to jaw height (press and fold x count). The x counts can be long is as it is supposedly less strenuous--but for the individual stressful can vary-since youy'll be doing different palm levels at different feet distancesjust a few can be alot. Less demanding but a work-out and this mechanical efficiency--an Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel concept

Continuing, the next levels will be shoulders then rib-middles-(breast but you might not want to call it breast or get giggles or have some defining/explaining.

Four levels done at different shoe distances-increase shoe distance by half a shoe for better building of stableizers. If you are up to it use quarter shoe increases perhaps shortening the number of pressesbut going to threefull shoe increases as a stopping point watching their back/waist straightnesses and the like

At each shoe distance four levels of palm centers. At each level of palm centersthe breadths:shoulders breadth, collar bones breadth, thumbs touching breadth, right above left, left above right (l on r and r on l except the preasure might hurt unconditioned hands but you might find it beneficial ask a certified Sifu besides you or a physicin though before pressing hand on hand) Continuing: pinkies touching, pinkies with face in between, pinky by pinky shoulder distance. Walk back through the sequence to thumb by thumb shoulder distance then go out a palm then out a second palm then out a third palm

This is a complete design based on what I considered for development from Squirrel. Take what you like of it be within Comfort and have Fun.

No_Know

After this next class do a regular on the floor push-up attempt. if not satis factoy go to the wall. If allowed to go to the floor first the wall pressing should help with development to be better able to do the floor.

Good to see you Keep up the good work It is probabally app?reciated-- your efforts.

No_Know

Too long for private message, too late to fiddle. Too important to not post. Two--No_Know

[Oso]

:)

gotcha. i agree it totally works.

I've used our blue folding mats to do the same progression with adults during our saturday programs. the mats work out well because each fold is 3" so there is a very small level of progression. a woman that trained with me went from not being able to do any pushups on the floor to doing the 12 pushup pyramid from trainforstrength.com on the floor in less than 3 months if I remmber correctly.



there is still an issue of trying to get all things accomplished in just 2700 seconds twice a week. I think we are going to start isolating an exercise every week and rotate through every three weeks: pushups, sit-ups, squats or I'll try to figure out how to get 10 kids through all of it in 10-15 minutes.

[Becca]

Becca, i misread you...our 'mat cleaning' is the same...I guess I'm not quite getting what you are calling alligators.

we'll do 'shrimping' drills and 'butt scoot' drills and 'sit out' drills in my grappling class.
Gators are mat cleaning but you keep your body rigid and grag your self making contact with the floor only with the tops of your feet and hands. Mat cleaning would be dragging yourself with the hands but making contact with full lower body, yes?