Tai chi before Bagua (or, should I return to my old Sifu?)

[Lode Runner]

This is going to require some background, but I'll *try* to keep it as brief as possible... Just bear with me:

Five or six years ago, my life reached a turning point. Previously I had been... well, a nothing. Just turned 18, completely coasting in life, not liking anything or anyone in general, really really struggling to see the point in it all.

All of this changed in 2002. I guess I finally just decided to start living--I got a job, got my GED, enrolled in college, took up Tai Chi Chuan and Judo, had my collarbone broken in Judo (this was due to my Sensei allowing a wrestler to practice full-strength sparring on his very first day. Tied up my arms and took me down on my shoulder without letting go, so I couldn't roll out of it. After my Sensei tried to blame the injury on me--for being a weakling--I quit), finally got a girlfriend, went out for 4 months, and then dealt with a messy, two-month-long breakup.

I'm telling you all this to illustrate just what a crazy, chaotic, life-changing period of my life this was. The importance of all this will become clear in a moment.

I studied Tai Chi for nine months under a Sifu whose primary style was Northern Praying Mantis. He seemed to promote Tai Chi Chuan mainly as relaxation and meditation, but when I questioned him on it he said that he did teach martial aspects (including push hands drills) for those who were interested. I told him that I was.

For the first five months or so, I came in early every single day. I watched the advanced class with interest and expressed interest in participating in push hands drills (which I would occasionally, but not frequently see among the Sihings and Sizhes.) Once, a Sizhe pushed hands with me for 2 minutes, and then told me I should practice some qigong drills on my own. I did so, but I was never again offered the chance to push hands. I could have asked, I suppose, but at this point in my life I was pretty society inept and besides, I wasn't sure if it was proper (in the Confucian sense of the word) for me to ask.

I quit Tai Chi after 9 months. I told my Sifu it was because my life was just too crazy at the time... but secretly, I was disappointed. I had practiced hard (at least for those first 5 or 6 months-I admit, my enthusiasm dropped somewhat after this point, though I still attended classes once a week without fail, and often twice a week) but still was at least 3-6 months away from completing the "beginner" form (a "standard government form" based on simplified Yang. Or so I was told) and the advanced class seemed to simply be practicing another slow-moving Yang form (some wielding jians.) Sifu himself was very frequently absent (often due to obligations connected to his NPM Kung Fu organization.)

I don't mean to imply that I was only interested in Tai Chi for the martial aspects, but I choose that school specifically because it was the only one in my area that claimed to teach them. In the beginning, Tai Chi was a tremendous benefit to me and my sanity through that chaotic period in my life. By the end, though, I felt I wasn't learning anything new. A new move to tack onto the end of my form, yes, but nothing new philosophically, nothing to increase my qi (or awareness, or endurance, or peace of mind, or whatever you call it.)

Fast forward to today. My life has reached a stability (of a sort) in part because I've discovered the Daodejing and Zhuangzi. I'm not a new ager by any stretch of the imagination (no offense intended if you do consider yourself a new ager)--I've been an atheist all my life, but I consider myself a Taoist now... a very BAD Taoist, probably, and one who has a lot to learn, but I seek the way just just the same. I have a sane girlfriend now and a non-stressful job that leaves me plenty of free time.

So, I look back and I realize... maybe I was unjust in my reasonings. Maybe I was too shy and distracted to make a proper effort, maybe I should have demonstrated that I was willing to go above and beyond what was required of me and help out around the school. Maybe I should have inquired about Taoist thought (though I only vaguely knew what the Tao was at the time.) Maybe I should give my old Sifu and Sihings/zhes a second chance, if they're kind enough to give me a second chance.

I open up the yellow pages to look for their phone number, and I find their ad proclaiming that they now teach Bagua and Hsing-I.

:eek: :D

I've ALWAYS wanted to study either of those IMAs (Baguazhang especially.)

But... I am cautious. I emailed my old Sifu anonymously, and he replied that "usually recommends that the student master the art of Yang Tai Chi, then mastering the advanced form of Chen style, then learning Bagua and Hsing-I." Bagua and Hsing-I (Xingyiquan) are apparently taught in the regular advanced Tai Chi classes.

This reply has left me very conflicted.

On the one hand, perhaps my disappointment five years ago was justified. Why was he absent so frequently? Why is he saying that Chen style (which, I believe, preceded Yang) is more "advanced"? Why does he encourage a student to learn the "external", acrobatic NPM Kung Fu alongside Yang Tai Chi yet not allow him to learn Chen Tai Chi or Xingyi or Bagua without *several years' worth* (judging by my previous progress) of Yang Tai Chi first?

On the other hand, perhaps it's my own natural clumsiness that slowed my progress the first time. Perhaps I should have practiced harder, or displayed more interested in extra-circular activities they would have offered to push hands with me more than just the one time. Or perhaps I was unintentionally disrespectful:

1. I did not inform Sifu in person that I was starting Judo. However, this was because Sifu was out of town for a month, and I did ask one of the longtime Sizhes--she assured me he would not object to it. (As it turns out, though, he seemed *slightly* offended when he found out.)

2. I quit with two or three months left on my contract (you're required to commit to a year) and Sifu let me slide. In hindsight, I feel bad about it and I should've finished paying for the year.

3. He invited me once to come to him and talk about the personal problems I was having in my life, and I declined. This may have had more to do with the fact that really I didn't have the time, but still--in hindsight, I feel as though this was a huge wasted opportunity.

4. In period of my life I was, as I've said, kinda shy and socially inept, and completely unfamiliar with Confucian etiquette (he is ethnically Chinese) so it's entirely possible I committed some other faux paux.

I would rather not commit further disrespect by returning and questioning the way he chooses to run his school (or quitting yet again after only putting in a year.)

Yet, despite my newfound respect and understanding of Taoist philosophy, despite my improved social graces and desire to be more respectful this time around... I have serious reservations. It may be that his policies on IMAs are in place to discourage students who aren't serious, but given my experience I can't help but wonder if they aren't indicative that *he* is the one not taking them seriously.

Any thoughts? In particular, have any of you ever encountered this style of IMA teaching before? (Yang Tai Chi first for several years, with little/no emphasis on push hands or anything martial, then Chen, then Xingyi and Bagua.)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Lode Runner,

Your story is quite compelling and inspiring. Congratulations for improving your life! It takes a lot of effort to make order out of chaos, but the benefit is worth the effort. In your efforts you have developed the skill of introspection. The insights into your thoughts and motivations introspection provides will benefit you greatly in your journey to understand and accommodate to Tao.

There is no way to know what will happen when you return to the MA school. You will have to go to find out. If you want to learn what the instructor has to teach then you must follow his protocols. That is just the way it works. If there is nothing else available in your area then you must decide if the benefits are greater than the detriments. Even if you do not like the teacher, the other students, or the method of teaching, learning something is better than learning nothing. You will still gain valuable experience and in the future when you move to another area with instructors more fitting to your needs and personality you will not be starting from the beginning.

We all have to conform to the structure of the learning institution we attend no matter what we are intending to learn. Conformity in uncomfortable circumstances is not always bad, it helps us learn to accommodate to Tao and helps us retain humility.

I have attended some schools of MA or the only purpose of learning specific skills. In order to learn the skill I wanted I had to conform to social structures and teaching methods that made me feel encumbered. Sometimes I learned from individuals with many years less knowledge and experience than I, but I wanted to learn so I chose to endure. I ended up learning more than just the skills of the art; I also benefited by having my ability to accommodate to uncomfortable situations (Tao) tested. So in the end I benefited both physically and spiritually.

We get out of a situation what we chose to get out of it. A challenge unmet is a skill unlearned and a benefit lost.

MA schools tend to have a large turn over. Instructors are used to that. Commonly there is a small core that stay for years, but even some of these filter away over time. It is could be courteous to let your instructor know if will not be attending any longer, but it is not necessarily required.

Consider your recognition of the embarrassment you may feel as providing an opportunity to grow beyond it. The instructor is responsible for his own expectations of you. If he is upset or insulted by your past behavior, that is his burden to work through. If you consider an apology appropriate by all means apologize for your past apparent departure from courtesy. Even if you are unsure if an apology is expected or needed it cannot hurt. Everyone makes mistakes and in my experience most people accept a sincere apology.

If you decide to go back to your former school, please let us know how it turns out.

[shaolin_allan]

a lot of that sounds like garbage to me. Your last sifu sounds very lame unfortunately i would not return to him ever. he sounds like maybe is part of a chain school or out for the money, or possibly an idiot. im not saying by any means he's not skilled, i have no idea, im nothing special trust me. if you were questioning that early, then there's reason for it, you know whats best for you. chen is in no way any more or less advanced then yang, infact yang came after chen i believe.you should not have to learn many years of no martial tai chi chuan just to be able to learn bagua and xingyi. when you find the right sifu you'll know trust me. good luck sincerely.

[lhommedieu]

Learning taiqiquan, baguazhang, or Xingyiquan takes a long time. Think of it as a 20-30 year project and don't worry about long it takes to learn one art before you can learn another, how long it takes before you can start push-hands, when you'll learn the fighting applications, etc. You're in a different social milieu when you're training in a Chinese martial arts school (which, by the way, starts to feel more like family over time) so behave accordingly. Training in this circumstance is measured in years, not months.

Typically people learn taiqiquan or they learn baguazhang or they learn xingyiquan. Taiqi practitioners tend to stay with their art - but many do move on to learning bagua or xingyi. Xingyi and Bagua practitioners typically learn one and then move on to the other but not everyone takes on taiqi. But it's all good. It sounds as if your teacher is using taiqi as a foundation art and if that's all you do for a while don't let it bother you. Taiqi is a great art with a lot of benefits that will become apparent to you over time.

It sounds as though going to this school was a positive experience for you, and that it helped you settle down. If you want to return I would make an appointment by calling the teacher first before visiting the school. Applogize for leaving before the contract expired and offer to pay the remainder of your contract. Only after that offer has been accepted or refused should you ask about returning, and then if that happens, it's practice, practice, practice...

Best,

Steve

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Lode Runner,

It all depends on what you want....

If you would like to learn lots of martial arts, find someone who teaches everything, like your old Sifu.

If you want to be good at ONE thing, you would need to find a specialist; A real Tai Chi specialist may know many martial arts, but would specialize only at one style. To do one's Tai Chi well, it would become such an intergral part of his life, he will see no room to practice his other martial arts well. Not to mention good Tai Chi transcends styles, trenscends physical movements. So there is no need to practice anything else because all is within.

Now, of course, to make a living your teacher must run his school like a business and charge fees. But just like a medical doctor (or dentist ;)) if his motive is money, and not the welfare of his patients, he will never be a good doctor. Trust your instinct, and sense what the teacher is all about.

Look for signs of unhealthy behaviours, such as "Sifu/Sihing/Sizhe worshipping" or cult mantality. While we should be grateful of the teachings from our teacher and our seniors, everyone should respect each other, from top down and from bottom up.

And most of all, be free and not be blinded by your own greed/desire; sometimes one may want something so much that he/she may be trapped in a most inappropriate situation or even taken advantage of because of this.

So just walk you path, let it be, and you will find what's right for you.

Cheers,
John

[shaolin_allan]

thats what i was trying to say also imperial. if you're already getting weird vibes from your instructor there's a reason for it. also if he's barely there it's a waste of money.

[ftgjr]

What you learned in Tai Chi will be a good foundation to whatever art you decide to study. When I was in my early twenties, I had lots of time to study and practice my Tae Kwon Do. I did practice but not nearly as hard as I could have. A few years later I started to take my training more seriously and earned my first black belt. The feeling I got was incredible because I had never put that much effort before into anything in my life. I realized for the first time that I could accomplish anything if I worked hard enough.

Whether you continue in Tai Chi or start Bagua or xingyi doesn't really matter as long as you feel comfortable with the instruction. Due to my training in Tai Chi, I was able to progress nicely in both Xingyi and Hung Gar. In Xingyi, I was able to be more relaxed than many other students that only trained in external martial arts prior. In Hun Gar, I was able to use my sensitivity that comes from Tai Chi training to blend with my opponents. I felt like I had an unfair advantage over some of the other students.

There is no doubt that Martial Arts has had a major impact on my life as well as many others. I would not have achieved the success in both my personal and professional life if it weren't for martial arts.

Trust your feelings.

[Ray Pina]

Hsing-I then Taiji then Ba Gua. Well that was the progession I was making and it made sense.

Hsing-I will teach you the major mechanical connections, ultimately how to generate a lot of power from driving off the ground with your leg, adding hip, back, shoulder, elbow and wrist to it. A lot of pieces moving at once together to create a lot of force.

Taichi then refines these connections. Smooths them out.

Ba Gua? I really can't talk too much about it. Just got a small taste. But then again I didn't see too much taiji either. And my master would say the same about my Hsing-I too I guess.

Find someone you like and take what you can, what makes sense to you and apply it.

As I get older I care less and less about a particular style as much as I do about seeing something spectacularly simple. I train at Renzo Gracie's now when I can, usualy intensely for two weeks at a time when in NY, and there's a lot of pro fighters there.

I've been shown some basic wrestling clinch work that I would call Hsing-I, same power source, same mechanics. Good stuff is good stuff. Most important is to be in a positive environment.

Good luck

[yangyang]

1 year contracts, sifu's never there, simplified forms, and Mantis is his primary art? If I was a person seriously interested in TCC study, it doesn't sound like that school is the place to do it at. Just my opinion, don't mean to be rude.

From my experience, most teachers who are VERY good at something 9 out of 10 times only study one art, since it takes so much time and dedication to get to an advanced level.

Anybody who claims to be a master (or even an advanced level teacher) in Yang, Chen, Mantis, Bagua, and Xingxi would be make me run as far away as possible.

PS. It's ok if you're a beginner, but why would anyone want to study TCC with a teacher who's primary art is Mantis. Usually, in cases like that, the teachers TCC is too much flavored with their first and primarty art, which in this case is PM. Lastly, if you are interested in "fighting" per say, you won't find too many TCC teachers that teach thoses aspects, and imho, for good reason, since it takes many years to get the body method down, energy, and the jin(g). If you start off fighting too soon, you most likely won't be doing TCC, but external MA. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but you did say you were interested in TCC.

[bawang]

hi lode runner, don't go back to your old teacher. after only a short time they suddenly teach something new, this is strange.

[Egg fu young]

Schools need money to run. The faster your taught the faster you'll learn. The object is to dangle the carrot without letting you get it or letting you go elsewhere to eat. I understand your frustration. It's unfortunate some Sifu's only see $, not the benifits they could give to people.