Structure Study Project

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

I am working of a study project at this time.

I looking at the structural development of Wing Chun.

Also an indepth look at the structure system of Chu Sau Lei wing chun.

Within this study I will look at the structure of many different martial arts as well.

I will like to connect the key idea of what is structure.

Part of this study requires open debate on these points. This will happen more once I have produced more work to show.

To start with I would like people views on a few topics.


PLEASE NOTE.

ONLY POST - if you can give your full name and short background of which arts you train in.

and

please note any posts may or may not be used within my project. If so your name will be quoted. If you do not want that to happen, then please do not post.

All view points are important and will be welcome.

If you want to add random comment, then please don't waste your own time.

Many thanks

Alan

www.alanorr.com

First Question :

What does the term 'Structure' Mean to your art?

[Alan Orr]

Hi Victor

Thanks for taking time to add your method.

If anyone else would like to add their views of what they do then please do.

Second question for all:

How does your structure produce striking power?


Third Question for all:

How does your structure deal with the power of your opponent? ie transfer of weight or movement.

You views are welcome for my project.

My best

Alan Orr

www.alanorr.com

ps Please note this is open to all arts. Knifefighter you view on grappling structures would be helpful. Full name is required and your view may be published as part of my project.

[couch]

Hi Victor

Thanks for taking time to add your method.

If anyone else would like to add their views of what they do then please do.

Second question for all:

How does your structure produce striking power?


Third Question for all:

How does your structure deal with the power of your opponent? ie transfer of weight or movement.

You views are welcome for my project.

My best

Alan Orr

www.alanorr.com

ps Please note this is open to all arts. Knifefighter you view on grappling structures would be helpful. Full name is required and your view may be published as part of my project.

I would like to, for now, answer the second question (hope this makes sense):

Because of the feet shoulder-width apart, toes in and sitting in the stance quite low (until there is a fist distance between the knees - not pushed together...but sat in), the pelvis in neutral and the elbows in and down:

I feel that my right fist and arm are one rod. Therefore, all force is coming from my elbow, attached to my hip and finally attached to my foot.(right arm, right hip, right foot).

The power is generated from the ground.

The power is accessible because of the ability to relax before and after a motion (what my immediately family considers ging).

Lastly, I believe that I am person, between heaven and earth. Therefore the power of God or Source connects with me from above (Du20 if you like), while the ground (at K1) supports me. Intention is brought to my elbow to make it the engine or driving force. Intention for anything to happen is key.

At times, as well, I like to play around with the ging mostly found in Bak Mei or some families of Crane(the hunching of the back). I find that this expansion/contraction can be very useful to generate power in certain situations.

I hope this helps. Some might be "practical" and some might be a little "esoteric," but I know your Sifu does Chinese Medicine. If you have q's...just ask.

Background:
Moy Yat-Sunny Tang-Joeseph Boychuk-Dave Harris-Me
My Wing Chun is part of my Sifu's innovation and my own after years in the following MA: Kenpo Karate, Tai Chi, Qigong, Short Stint in TWC.
I am also a Doctor of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik Dip.Ac., Dip.TCM

[Alan Orr]

Hi Kenton

Many thanks for your reply.

Don't worry about being to esoteric, I practice Chinese Medicine as well.

I'm not looking for answers as such. This is part of my project. I need to have lots of points of view from other people.

Then when I write my thesis I have different view points to refer too.

I may come back at times for more opinons from peoples view points if thats okay.

My next question will be a good one for you to answer, due to your background.

Question four:

How would you explain the physical forces used within your structure to control power? In a western point of view and/or chinese medicine Internal /Qi Gong view point?

Again thank you for taking time to add to this work

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[aelward]

I haven't posted in ages, but this topic is one that interests me.

Name: John Kang

Art(s): My primary Wing Chun lineage is from Sifu Lo Man Kam, but I have been heavily influenced by the approaches of Sifu Duncan Leung via Sifu Gorden Lu; by Sifu Francis Fong via Sifu Akko Nishimura; and by Sifu Ken Chung and his students via friendly exchanges. While I still follow my Sifu's core forms and approach to Chi Sao learning, he does not particularly approve of how I apply it; nor do my views on structure necessarily reflect his.

I previously learned Northern Shaolin, Yang Taiji and Shorinji Kempo; and have also done some basic cross training in Western Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

Other note: like some other posters in this topic, I am also a practitioner of Chinese Medicine.


In my humble opinion, the theory of power generation in Wing Chun comes from some of the Kuits:

"Power Comes from the Earth."
"Waist and Horse Together."
"Use Form to Complement Hands."
"Fist Comes from the Heart."

I think this is the meaning of Structure, and that structure embodies several concepts-- Alignment, Rooting, and Linkage.

Alignment, emodied by "Waist and Horse together" and "Use Form to Complement Hands" has to do with your own body's alignment, isolated from a partner or opponent. It is lining up your bones and joints-- the knuckles, wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine, pelvic girdle, knees, and ankles-- so that it can become relatively a passive conduit to the ground. Some key components are:

1. Sun-Character fist: The third knuckle lines up with the radius, the fifth nuckle with the ulna.

2. Elbow pointing downwards

3. Shoulders down

4. Hips tilted forward to straighten out the lumbar spine

5. Knees pointing inward

Rooting connects your Alignment to the ground. It is the concept of "Li Cong Di Qi" -- power comes from the earth. When you hit something, rooting combined with structure diverts the recoil (i.e., Newton's 3rd Law) downward instead of backward.

While Alignment looks inward at one's self, Linkage looks outward toward others. It is how you connect your center to your opponent's center. It is how the muscle and connective tissue surrounding the joints and bones support your passive, isolated structure. At the same time, you can "unlink" to strike hit with localized, relaxed muscle if you do not have optimal alignment or if you want to prevent your opponent from linking to your own center.

All these concepts integrate to form power. But power is only one aspect of training, because without a delivery system, it is meaningless (like all those Nuclear Warheads we have in silos that supposedly won't even get off the ground). The delivery system comes from other training methods-- Chi Sao partially as a tool of making your structure dynamic with regard to your partner's; conditioning to harden the bones, strengthen the muscles and ligaments, hone reflexes and build endurance; sparring to make the skills applicable; tactics to guide your sparring, etc. Therefore, I personally think that Structure is something that does not have to be perfect from the begininng-- it is something that you will always improve at as you train.

[Alan Orr]

Hi John

Many thanks for your post.

You guys are all bringing in good thoughts on the subjects.

My best

Alan

ps If you guys have time think about the others questions as well.

[stonecrusher69]

First Question :

What does the term 'Structure' Mean to your art


reply-- "structure" in the art we practice means one's ability to use any technique such as a Tan sao ,Bong Sao, etc to deflect,obsorb,hold skink whatever without ussing any physical forse but relying on body machanics to achieve the same results that someone can do using alot of physical power.

Michael Mc Ilwrath

[Alan Orr]

Hi Victor

Thank you for taking time to add more.


Hi Michael

Thanks for your input as well.


My best

Alan


www.alanorr.com

[couch]

I haven't posted in ages, but this topic is one that interests me.

Name: John Kang

Art(s): My primary Wing Chun lineage is from Sifu Lo Man Kam, but I have been heavily influenced by the approaches of Sifu Duncan Leung via Sifu Gorden Lu; by Sifu Francis Fong via Sifu Akko Nishimura; and by Sifu Ken Chung and his students via friendly exchanges. While I still follow my Sifu's core forms and approach to Chi Sao learning, he does not particularly approve of how I apply it.

I previously learned Northern Shaolin, Yang Taiji and Shorinji Kempo; and have also done some basic cross training in Western Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

Other note: like some other posters in this topic, I am also a practitioner of Chinese Medicine.


In my humble opinion, the theory of power generation in Wing Chun comes from some of the Kuits:

"Power Comes from the Earth."
"Waist and Horse Together."
"Use Form to Complement Hands."
"Fist Comes from the Heart."

I think this is the meaning of Structure, and that structure embodies several concepts-- Alignment, Rooting, and Linkage.

Alignment, emodied by "Waist and Horse together" and "Use Form to Complement Hands" has to do with your own body's alignment, isolated from a partner or opponent. It is lining up your bones and joints-- the knuckles, wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine, pelvic girdle, knees, and ankles-- so that it can become relatively a passive conduit to the ground. Some key components are:

1. Sun-Character fist: The third knuckle lines up with the radius, the fifth nuckle with the ulna.

2. Elbow pointing downwards

3. Shoulders down

4. Hips tilted forward to straighten out the lumbar spine

5. Knees pointing inward

Rooting connects your Alignment to the ground. It is the concept of "Li Cong Di Qi" -- power comes from the earth. When you hit something, rooting combined with structure diverts the recoil (i.e., Newton's 3rd Law) downward instead of backward.

While Alignment looks inward at one's self, Linkage looks outward toward others. It is how you connect your center to your opponent's center. It is how the muscle and connective tissue surrounding the joints and bones support your passive, isolated structure. At the same time, you can "unlink" to strike hit with localized, relaxed muscle if you do not have optimal alignment or if you want to prevent your opponent from linking to your own center.

All these concepts integrate to form power. But power is only one aspect of training, because without a delivery system, it is meaningless (like all those Nuclear Warheads we have in silos that supposedly won't even get off the ground). The delivery system comes from other training methods-- Chi Sao partially as a tool of making your structure dynamic with regard to your partner's; conditioning to harden the bones, strengthen the bones and ligaments, hone reflexes and build endurance; sparring to make the skills applicable; tactics to guide your sparring, etc. Therefore, I personally think that Structure is something that does not have to be perfect from the begininng-- it is something that you will always improve at as you train.

Alan, I'm going to have a hard time adding my 2 cents to this one.

Very good post and I concur.

Hope I can add more soon,
Kenton Sefcik

[Finny]

Alan, in looking at other styles, you might want to look into some of the 'internal' chinese arts and check out their take on structure. It would be interesting to see how they related to your chu sau lei method.

An excellent example was recently posted in the Taijiquan/IMA forum here by Jay_Bee of Dia Shi Xinyiquan Grandmaster Yan Rong Chang performing Si Ba in super slo-mo. An incredible example of Dai style shen fa.




Here is my shiye demonstrating, Dai Xin Yi's, Si Ba (4 strikes). I hope you all like it.

As I mentioned my shiye is available for seminars, private lessons and training camps in China. Plese email me on Jingang@xtra.co.nz (Jon Dyer) for more details.

Dai Xin Yi Si Ba (4 strikes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ZiH0hsbXM

Dai Xin Yi San Guin (3 stick) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdjD8nVriss

Jay_Bee (aka Jon Dyer).



For some background on Dai Xinyi:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/daitech1.html

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/daihistory.html

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/sanquan.html

Hope that helps.

[aelward]

I think my first post incorporates question 2 and 3, but to expound on 3:

An opponent's power can come from different directions, and there are different solutions based on circumstance.

1. Unlinking - against superior structural strength, relaxing one or more joints to prevent the oppponent from connecting his center to mine.

2. Sinking - against rigidity, using my superior structure to guide his force downward.

3. Redirecting - using the structure of the arms to change the direction of your opponent's force-- i.e, bong sao.

4. Rotating - using the structure of the core to change the direction of your opponent's force.

5. Stepping - of course keeping in mind the maxim "When you move, you have already lost the center," but sometimes, rotation isn't enough. You may have to fall back into a stronger stance or step forward into a stronger stance relative to your opponent's structure.


For question 4, how to explain the processes happening: You can do it in either modern applied science, or in Chinese cosmology. I personally believe they are two different paradigms that explain the same phenomena, and one's existence does not preclude the existence of the other.

For example, Western Medicine talks about Immunity, TCM talks about Wei Qi. Both describe similar phenomena.

From a martial point of view, one might use torque to generate more striking power-- it is the same as Yin becoming Yang. Or, solid low stances can defeat rapid strikes like Earth Controls Water.

[Alan Orr]

Hi Finny

Yes, I am doing that as well.

Your links are cool, Thank you for taking time to post them.

My best

Alan

Hi aelward

Some excellent points.

I do need a full name if I am to use any quotes.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Any opinons on -

Question four:

How would you explain the physical forces used within your structure to control power? In a western point of view and/or chinese medicine Internal /Qi Gong view point?


Maybe the wresten mechanics of using power?

My best

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

The one thing I have learned over the years in the MA and studying different systems and how the produce speed and power is to never apply STATIC principles to a DYNAMIC system.

[Alan Orr]

Hi sanjuro_ronin

You are right.

First we must look at the frame work then how it is used.

Why not give you insights to this

My best

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have done Hung Gar, Wing Chun, JKD, Chen Taiji, Judo, Kyokushin, Okinawan Goju, Kali, Kenjutsu, Boxing and Muay Thai in the almsot 30 years I have been doing MA.

Done the stance training till I collapsed, done power lifting till I was squatting and Deadlifting over 400lbs.
Modern training and traditional one.

Different power methods and speed methods.
From the "short" power Taiji to "leverage" of boxing.

The one thing that I have learned is that, moving the way you are suppose to is the only way to do it, anything else is simply second best.
Static training the makes us dwell on certain angles of the elbows and knees, certain placement of the hips and shoulder, stance training that, while great for building a "foundation" serves very little purpose in the actual application of techniques outside the transition phase, these things are great for raw beginners but are NOT to be over-emphasized.

Look at western boxing, when was the last time you some some coach ***** about a STATIC stance to boxer?

From day one they are taught how to stand WHILE moving.

Dynamic body structure principles applied to a dynamic art.

The "solidness" of footing is crucial in the moments before, during and upon impact of a strike ( for example) and at NO point are any of those moments static, they are fluid and dynamic.

And hitting something is crucial, your ability to maintain structure when exposed force is crucial in power generation.
And the ability to hit a moving, reacting target is what correct structure is all about, but it is NOT static.

People see the word structure and they think a building, a strong foundation.
But we must apply it to movement and this is crucial.

One of the reasons boxers hit moving targets so well is because that is who they train their structure.

Tyson in his prime, Joe Louis, Marciano, all people with solid body structures that applied it very well while moving.

[Ernie]

'' Functional Structure VS Marketing a Structure ''

Balance and control

make what ever adjustments you need in motion , when issuing force when receiving force

if this means , moving then move if it means sinking then sink if it means becoming empty in one part of your body or the whole then do so

we open and close joints for power , dissipation or leverage .

it's why we train sensitivity and use that information to make tactical adjustments

we are after all animals we have intuitive balance , we screw it up by trying to make a system out of it and give a name and sell it as a finite way of thinking

reminds me of the story of the millipede ,,, happily moving along with out a care ,,, then it is asked how do you control all those legs , in stopping to think about it ,,, it stumbles and trips on it self ,,,, silly ,,,, like arguing about techniques or styles ,,,,,, to each there own I guess ,,, congrats on your achievements and good luck on your journey !

ps.

It would be better to research and share training methods to develop [Functional Structural Awareness and Development ] just a thought =)

[stonecrusher69]

Question #2 How does structure produce power?

To me structure does not produce power by it self but only acts as a means of transfer of energy. Like a gun acts as a means to transfer the engery of the bullet.

Question #3 How does your structure deal with the power of your opponents?ie transfer of weight or movment.

Your stucture can be used to obsorb,redirect any movment or energy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question #2 How does structure produce power?

To me structure does not produce power by it self but only acts as a means of transfer of energy. Like a gun acts as a means to transfer the engery of the bullet.

Question #3 How does your structure deal with the power of your opponents?ie transfer of weight or movment.

Your stucture can be used to obsorb,redirect any movment or energy.

I agree with your answer to question #2, as for #3 I only add that your structure MUST be free and flowing to be able to absorb, redirect energy and that, that energy must be applied ( in training) in a way as close to reality as possible.

[stonecrusher69]

sanjuro_ronin to your response to my question # 3 absolutly correct!! I 100% agree with you.

[Paul T England]

Hi guys

IMHO to attack or defend will be easier with correct structure as you will have balance and control rather than a movement/position that you cannot capitalise on. So correct structure is the ability to apply what you want/have to. Your structure supports your objectives in business, life and martial art.

I take the stand (no pun intended) that you must learn & understand static structure first Siu Nim Tao or standing post qi gong for example) then apply it in motion so that you have power and control in any position. Against a resisting / alive partner/person you will always have movement.

Obviously lack of sound understanding and basics, overcommitment, tension of mind and body etc all play a part in the success or failure of your structure to support your objective.

I am not saying that I can do it all the time but I at least have a game plan...

Paul Tennet