UK Wing chun Multi Lineage day Reloaded

[Nick Forrer]

This event was held in Leicester (city in the midlands) at Urban martial arts which is a really cool well equipped gym that anyone should visit if they have the chance

Running order was as follows:

It started at 10 with shawn rawcliffe

Then Alan Gibson 1130 till 1

Then in the afternoon we had Paul Smith 2-330

And then finally my teacher Alan Orr 330 -5

The event was six hours with four different teachers, all with lots of experience. So a good event with loads of keen people from all over attending (over 50) and good for building bridges/bonds and seeing what else is out there in terms of wing chun

http://www.wingchunday.co.uk/

Big thank you to Jon for organising it

[Nick Forrer]

Comments from participants:

Dan Robinson:

very good day, good time had by all. Was good to see so many people turn up. I was expecting about 30-40, there was possibly double that on the day.
Was a good look at all the aspects wing chun can offer, and a good mix of people attending.
Thanks to shaun, alan, paul and alan for sharing their collective knowledge and time with us. Thanks also to jon broster for organising the day, and the uma for having us all descend on the gym on gwoklin's day off.
Nick, special thanks for taking the time (as always) to look at the different flavours on offer, and helping us understand a few of the finer points. Hope you got back home without too much hassle. See you soon.
I hope another of these days happens in the future, it was nice to see that instead of all the style bashing and 'my lineage is best' that sometimes occurs online, everyone just got stuck in, in the realisation that actually we're not all that different. It was all taken in good faith with a good attitude to learning from each other.

Anyhoo, shawn rawcliffe started the day with a look at street applications of wing chun, looking at various options.
Alan gibson looked at turning as a response to pressure applied on your stance, and grew some drills from there.
Paul smith again looked at his interpretation of street uses, and his experience as a doorman. He was basically looking at how to end a fight as quick as poss, with a little on how to deal with a knife armed attacker.
Alan orr had a good look at stance and structure. He had some simple structure tests which people all tried, with mixed results. He then went to chi sau without strikes, the idea being to maintain stance whilst trying to disrupt your opponents.
Was all in all a very good day, a good mix of ideas and people.

As for the body structure stuff, alan orr's whole take on that was 'how can you win a fight if you can't even stand your ground' (not an exact quote, but in essence what i took from his words). We started that with a simple structure test where your partner placed his hand in the middle of your chest and steadily pushes into you, gradually pushing harder as your stance absorbs it (or not). this developed into non striking chi sau, not moving your feet and using stance to absorb and redirect. I think we also did a similar thing with alan gibson only taking the force onto a tan sau, redirecting it to one of your feet and to the ground. I think things like this are helpful and one key to finding and developing power from the ground, so it helped me a lot. I think if you need a good look into this i would recommend contacting alan orr directly, or nick forrer (above) nick has a good understanding on this matter and is on here a bit.
i dont know enough about any of this to comment, all i know is that the stuff alan showed, and that nick showed me after the seminar, it works. and it works well compared to other stuff i've seen.(in my limited experience)
Anyone else at the seminar? anyone else care to share what they learned that day? I hope so, because it was a good day which opened my eyes (which is happening a lot lately with wing chun) to a good many ways of doing things, now i just gotta sift through it all and filter out what doesnt suit/work for me.


Chee


I've been on holiday so I've not been able to comment earlier. It was nice to meet Nick at last, he's bigger and more solid than I imagined!

Overall it was a very worthwhile day and very much an eye-opener for me to see so many interpretations of Wing Chun. But really Alan Orr's approach was the one I found most intriguing but difficult to comprehend (more later).

As has been mentioned before, Shaun Rawcliffe and Paul Smith's sections of the seminar were more technique oriented, drawing on their personal experiences of close quarter protection and door work respectively.

Alan Gibson's section was excellent especially from a learner's point of view. The initial drill was simple and structured, training some key concepts of Wing Chun like the sensitivity, elbow control. There was progressive building on top of this drill ... when your partner pushes or pulls ... stepping ... control (laap) and punching. From a personal viewpoint a very satisfying experience.

Finally Alan Orr's section. I think we almost went through all of Robert Chu sifu's structure tests. I think we could have done with more time and/or more of Alan's people to give pointers. I only really "got" the bong sau test after some advice and it was certainly quite different to what we, and I guess, most people do.

I have to say that the "look" of Alan's (& Nick's) Wing Chun looks very different to most. When they engage their structure it looks like they are leaning in with their bodyweight, but if the pressure is removed they don't topple forward they just relax back into their stance (great sensitivity). When I chi sau'ed with Alan and Nick (earlier), it was a total joke on my part, I was totally off balance the entire time!

I liked Alan's spinning top analogy where he likened himself to a spinning top that just spun incoming force off his centre. He then illustrated this using Nick as his partner. Instead of stepping away from Nick, as most people are wont to do, he simply turned Nick about and pointed out that he was in an equivalent position to having stepped, but without giving up his stability.

He then demonstrated a scenario where he did step but it was only half a body width and into his opponent, bringing himself into a range much closer than I would be comfortable with (clinch range).

Alan showed how he could simply hit 3-4 times at the range before someone could register the fact. Another way seemed to be some kind of wrestling move which I don't have any experience with so I can't describe what he was doing.

In closing I would like to thank Jon Broster and everyone at UMA for organising and holding such a great event. Also to all the instructors who presented their material and experience.

Personally, I would love to train some more with Alan Gibson and Alan Orr (and Nick), but that is for the future, family time permitting.

Right, time to big up Alan Gibson ...

I don't have my notes with me so it is all from memory and getting hazier by the moment. So hopefully the others can fill in.

Alan started with a punching - wu sau drill. One person punches, and the other receives with the wu sau, pivoting in the stance only if the pressure of the punch is great enough. The other hand is of course punching. Then your partner punches over your punch which retracts into wu, etc.

He was very particular about elbow positions of course. The punching arm elbow must be down to control your partner's other arm. This also means distance is another crucial aspect. I had played with this drill the weekend before with Dan, but only on the day did I think that it was kind of like a "hands" version of the tui ma drill.

On watching Alan a second time I realised he was only pivoting very slightly, not like the exaggerated pivot I was doing! You really have to accept what comes.

I really can't remember too clearly from this point on. The drill was extended into what if the puncher pulls on your arm and the responses to that, e.g. stepping, lan sau, punch, etc.

That's pretty much all I can remember without my notes, and even they are suspect. So over to Dan and Nick.

This was another part of the seminar that I enjoyed a lot. The reason being that it was about building core skills rather than focusing on fixed responses. There was a real sense of progression in the drill.

[Nick Forrer]

More about Chu Sau Lei WCK in response to questions on the internet

Nick Forrer Comments

1) We have guys who fight and have won pro mma (head shots allowed) as well as boxing matches. Also if anything amateur mma is harder for strikers as it means a grappler will have less risk in trying to take you down. But with our body structure we have been able to gather wins in 3 areas (strikes only, and strikes and grappling both with and without head shots).

2) People say when they look at our clips 'where is the wing chun'. What they really mean is 'where is the kind of wing chun I practice'. If you mean where is the 100-0 back weighted, running in chain punching, fast hands wing chun you wont ever see it in the ring. Why? Because it doesn't work in reality

3) Body structure has two main functions - it allows us to absorb force and it allows us to issue force. This is why we can take punishment and why we can dish it out.

4) To be clear what we do is very different from what Alan Gibson teaches (by way of David Peterson). Their idea is that under pressure the basic square stance is designed to 'collapse' when pressured into a more function stance that allows you to gain an angle on your opponent (the toi ma concept). Our stance doesn't collapse but roots and borrows the pressure...then we can press into our opponent and issue our force

5) That said We have plenty of mobility....our footwork has shuffle step, pressing step, lateral step, marching step, circle step, pivot step, drifting step, plucking step, crashing step, stealing step, triangle step, crossing step etc.
These combine with all our methods e.g. borrowing, stealing, leaking, guiding, crossing, evading, floating, cutting, uprooting etc.
Also our 50 50 weight and weight over k1 point (balls of the feet) helps our mobility

6) In terms of origins Robert is open about where our wc comes from: Hawkins Cheung and to a lesser extent Kwan Jong Yuen (YKS and Gulao). What he did was organise a lot of material into one coherent system starting with the basic structure tests (which we did at the seminar - to bring this thread back to what it was started about)

Of course some people with many years of experience fail these tests and because their ego cant take it they start acting in strange ways. Others see it as something positive and try and fill the gaps they have in their wing chun. In a way the tests aren't just a test of wc but a test of character too.

Yes Robert has studied with many wing chun people (hes like a walking encyclopedia on WC)...but what he uses and applies and teaches comes primarily from the 2 people named. Anyone can check out Hawkins inch power dvd and cross reference it with alans dvds if they want to verify this...all the methods/body structure we use are there if you know what to look for. Actually its worth checking it out anyway as its the best DVD i've seen on wing chun (IMHO).

7) sure other WC people have structure...how comprehensive it is and how systematised it is within a particular branch is another story. For example, I had some structure before I met Alan not all the structure I could have (if you like I wasn't maximizing my structure). Some people might think I'm training with Alan for NHB or grappling. That isn't the case. To be clear he is my WC coach. And what he has taught me first and foremost is proper structure. To put it another way, I didn't really appreciate Alan's system when he demonstrated it on me - I only truly appreciated it when I began to be able to apply it for myself against other people. It was only then that I realised how much my wing chun had improved with the correct structure in place, that is, now that I could correctly store force, issue force and divert force with my structure. People say seeing is believing. I would have to say in this case feeling is believing.


Alan Orr Comments


Alan : With our Structure of the Chu Sau Lei system we can control bigger, stronger opponents. I am 85 - 89 kgs and I can throw around guys of 130 Kgs.
If a heavy guy had my structure is would be harder work! Then we use the next level of our structure control. Its still no real problem. I have girls I teach who can deal with guys who are 20- 30 kgs.
I am sure if 7 Stone girl was trying to turn to get of of the way of a 20 stone guy, then he would just chase her centre and over come her movement.
If you have structure in the way our system uses it, then you root and then de link to redirect. You don't just hold it all day long. Its that first root control that allows you to delink to strike without lost of stance control.
One of my best fighters ( PRO MMA with wing chun) is only 65 kg in training he dealing with guys with structure at 85 - 90kg. I have seen him destroy many guys without structure giving up 30 kg.
At the seminar my guys all had no problems throwing people around due to peoples lack of structure understanding and control.
I did walk around and chi sao with a lot of people to give them a feel of the method.
Please feel free to come to my class and have some first hand feedback. You are all welcome. That the best way to have a clear view of it all.

The main thing in terms of our MMA success is our body structure skills. It gave my guys more confidence in their skills, also the methods produces a lot more power in strikes, it allows you to have strong clinch control as well. Attitude is very important, my group are all good guys and we all workout hard together and push each other. We have a big team feel in everything we do. Skill and Tactics - yes, this is one thing I am good at doing for my fighters and studnets. I am able to breakdown peoples needs to improve them very quickly. I can also see why they are not making some things work. That the coaching part. I use a lot of NLP when coaching as well. Conditioning is 101 if you what to get in a ring. We work very hard on that, its also good for general health as well.

The times we loss to be very honest where only 4 times to guys when they should have won. It was a mental block on my guys part on these fights. The others where with a couple of my guys who went in when I told them they where not ready, as they did not have good grappling skils. They pushed me to fight, so I made a error and let them. So all in all we have not lost a fight due to lack of structure or due to our system not taking the pressure. That is an honest opinon.

All the fights are look at in depth, all the fighters improve from that and so does the normal class studnets. I am very lucky to have a great group of guys and no ego's and good hearts. I coach my guys to have strong game plans for each fight.

We have 6-8 pro MMA fights booked in this year!

[Dan_chi_sau]

cheers for that, nick. Makes for a much easier read when put like that. Shame that there aren't many people who were there who either dont post here, or have chosen not to.
Whilst I'm on the subject, anyone have any pictures/links to pics taken from the day that they would be willing to share? Not that it's the be all and end all, just nice to have a few pics of these days for my album :)
Hope people join in the feedback. I, for one, have had plenty to think of since then. The stance work displayed by alan orr and nick is different to what i am currently using, and i think both have their merits, I'm playing about with both a lot at the mo, finding what works for me, and where my limits are with it all. More to come on that in the future, I have no solid results for myself yet, but we're getting there. Should be hooking up with mick yates soon, dan and scott had a private class with him yesterday and it sounded like they got a lot from him. I suppose the only way you're ever really gonna learn is to go to the horse and have a look in its mouth, if you get my drift.

[Nick Forrer]

good for you Dan

Too many people stick to what they know rather than having a look at whats out there:)

[Gooseman]

hhhmmm.
I posted some positive and proactive comments on this thread.
They were all in a respectful tone and promoted a functional contribution to the piece.
I think that the Orwellian removal of all other posts other than those that support the title demonstrates something that a democracy despises IMHO!
Steve G.

[CFT]

Here is a brief summary of the sections of the seminar given by Shaun Rawcliffe and Paul Smith. Both came over as technique oriented on the day, it might not be reflective of the training in their clubs.

I don't think a blow by blow account is necessary, but I'll just post a few tasters:

Shaun Rawcliffe was very humorous indeed (well I thought so) - his patter was well rehearsed and very smooth; it helped to break the ice, a nice start to the seminar. With his Birmingham accent, he reminded me of the UK comedian Jasper Carrot.

He has a close quarter protection business so drew on some of his experiences whilst presenting his material. First showed a biu sau against an incoming punch, angle stepping to the side, fingers towards the opponent's eye (not a stopper, just to capitalize on the natural flinch reaction). Other hand comes in for palm to jaw, step further around and raise the jaw higher, your elbow in their back rather like a fook sau.

Some more talk about knee checking, variation of above with neck pull action from wooden dummy, knee to face and downward stamp along shin. Very fond of stamping/kicking the oppo's achilles tendon to incapacitate.

There was more to the drills - probably 4 or 5 variations that came back to the start again. More detail than I can remember.

---

Paul Smith drew on his experiences working the doors. He just seemed like a bad, mad Scots; skool of hard knocks! :D Again more technique based. But he certainly had a lot of power.

Bizarrely recommended pak sau to incoming punch (or weapon arm) - hey he has the experience! Couldn't remember what he said about controlling the arm after the pak, but I do remember his advice about using a back fist from that position - don't use the back of the fist, angle it so that the knuckles can cut!

Some people might then still stay within the Wing Chun mind set and try and bring back the punching hand to pin the arm, but Paul just covered his exposed side with his punching arm and punched with the other. Again drawing from his personal experience.

Then he showed angling off an incoming punch, and a palm in response that brushed up the oppo's shoulder as a guide to the jaw. Other hand grabs the wrist and twists over, then we got into a little bit of wrist locking. Won't bore you all with the details.

Then jeet sau (? tan/jut or tan/fook) from the 2nd form against a punch, followed by the last kick from the 2nd form to kick either the lead or rear knee. Always aim for the "notional" lead knee since the arcing nature of the kick will take in either knee if it is in the path of the kick.

---

I'm sorry that I've not been very detailed with these 2 accounts. This was mainly because I am not very keen on technique oriented methods of teaching, though there were a few nice points that I bought away from both these teachers. In my opinion both were less about building core skills, which I felt Alan Gibson and Alan Orr covered quite nicely.

Nonetheless, I enjoyed the whole day and again I'd like to thank all those who presented and the staff of UMA Leicester who organized and ran the seminar.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Chee

Thats great...thanks for your positive contribution :)

[CFT]

No probs Nick. I like the look of the new nice clean thread. :)

I thought that we should have a review of all the instructors to give the thread some balance.

I now realize how bad my memory is. I really only remember a few things from the day. Maybe it is easier for people who have had more "time in".

[Alan Orr]

Hi Steve

Re:

hhhmmm.
I posted some positive and proactive comments on this thread.
They were all in a respectful tone and promoted a functional contribution to the piece.
I think that the Orwellian removal of all other posts other than those that support the title demonstrates something that a democracy despises IMHO!
Steve G.

Alan: Your questions may have been overlooked. The answers have still been put up. I sure it was an oversight Steve. Nick had to go over a lot of posts to sort out the thread.

Any more please post.

My best

Alan

[ronro]

sounds interesting. where do the Alan Orr guys train?

[Nick Forrer]

Alan Orr teaches:

Tue in Maida Vale London 730-930

Sunday in York

Some of the senior guys meet up and train on the weekends too and teach privately

[ronro]

Thanks, I PM'd you