Ark Yuey Wong- list of lineage/style holders?

[zhangxihuan]

hey does anyone out there have a list of people they know are legit inheritors of the 5 animals 5 family's style as done by Shifu Ark Yuey Wong.. ???

Im curious as to who truly knows this system (i'm looking into it).

also if anyone in california is qualified to teach it...???

[hskwarrior]

i have a very old vid clip of him either 1950's or 60's

[lostdragon]

IIRC, there are a few practitioners that are still teaching today. Seming Ma is the grandson of AYW, and current inheritor of the system.

They used to post alot on the southern fist forum, before it closed down. Now they have a proboards forum:

http://cuervo1.proboards75.com/index.cgi

If you look around in their , you can find some video of both seming and AY doing materials. Here's a vid of semind doing the 'combination form'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDTlcUwqa_Y

Here's some footage of ark wong. IIRC, a lot of this was intentionally demonstrated slow for teaching purposes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8vLoq3ZsM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YAEX3pooJg&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvnsMlF1exg&mode=related&search=

and here's some of the other practitioners that I've seen performing at a masters expo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On8n_kDPEgg&mode=related&search=

sry I can't ID the ppl right off.

[Steeeve]

Howdy lost dragon .....I probably know you ???? Thank to put some link of my You tube videos:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8vLoq3ZsM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YAEX...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvnsM...elated&search=


Here the link for Ng Ga

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nggakuen/

http://www.kungfu5family.com/

http://cuervo1.proboards75.com/index.cgi#general

Everybody welcome to the Ng Ga Kuen (GM Ark Yueh Wong Kung fu)

Steeve

[Vajramusti]

I think that there is someone who studied with the late great sifu- and who lives in California. He visits the forum from time to time and he may or may not see the inquiry. Its not me.

[Steeeve]

Sifu Joy

I dont understood your post ????im french ....difficult to me in english sometime..

By the way nice to you to respond to the post about GM Wong .....

All my respect to the Augustine Fong Wing chun family....and to you

Steeve

[TenTigers]

Hey, who is the guy that was on the Bruce Tegner books on Kung-Fu?

[Jade Tigress]

I studied Sil Lum in the Ark Wong lineage. Blue Ridge Kung Fu Arnis Association. GM Rick Ward's school's. http://www.blueridgekungfuinternationalheadquarters.com/

The guy in Cali you're probably referring to is Rick Ward's teacher, I think his name is David Wood but I can't remember right now. Anyway, he has been ill and to my knowledge no longer teaches, you could try calling Blue Ridge headquarters and perhaps they can steer you in the right direction.

Good luck! :)

[Vajramusti]

Steeeve and also Jade Tigress-


Pete Robinson in Southern California is a superb experienced , knowledgeable and long standing kung fu person, who has studied with some of the very best and distinguished kung fu sifus in the US going back to the sixties. He was the late Ark Yuey Wong's student for many years. He does not have a web site to my knowledge and does not run an open over commercialised school. He is careful about who he takes on as a serious student. He does not get involved in political web xxxx chats.

He occasionally has scanned through the forum- most recently in a Southern mantis -tong long lineage issue. If serious- you can pm him via a search in this
forum's list of members or go back to that SPM thread.

joy chaudhuri

[Steeeve]

Joy

Im a student of Ng Ga under Sifu Seming Ma ....since couple years....

The late GM Wong teach a lot of American students.....Sifu Seming Ma is the grandson of GM Wong ,,,,

Steeve

[Scott R. Brown]

http://www.energeticartscenter.com/kungfu2.html

[Steeeve]

Whos Who.....

All the american students learn good ....and thats great to keep the teaching of GM Wong......Everyone have their own interpretation of the style .....maybe one day we have the bruce lee of wing chun ...doing the Ng kune do concept ....Why not .......

No bad attitude here about everyone......but whatever the style ....not a lot of person have complete all the style ....Ng ga ,CLF ,WC whatever ....but a lot have complete it by himself ......and thats OK ....


some sex pistol for ya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6MIRa8Gpuo


Enjoy
Steeve

[ShaoliNeophyte]

There are two sifus at the Shaolin Temple Kung Fu School in Lomita that learned southern 5 families from the late grandmaster Ark Wong. They are the main sifu Manuel Marquez, and sifu Louie Martinez.

Master Seming Ma recently attended the school's anniversary party and I got to see him demonstrate. Very impressive!

[hskwarrior]

here is some old footage we've had in our school of Wong Ark Yuey

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eHJj-wWturE

[Steeeve]

Some Salute ,Butterfly ,combinaition and small cross

Steeve

Very good thank to Share Frank

[hskwarrior]

sifu wong can also be found in this video too.

he's helping professor Lau Bun during a lion dance.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xCs1Lcip-Io

[lostdragon]

sifu wong can also be found in this video too.

he's helping professor Lau Bun during a lion dance.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xCs1Lcip-Io

Thanks! Great to see this.

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello out there, I was the first non chinese student taught by master Wong ,I started training with him in 1958 and continued for ten years. We opened the Wah Que Studio in old china town. I used to open the studio every day and would start the classes before sifu would came over after closing his store. He taught me the hard way ,showing me the technique no more than twice. I guess he was always testing me .Luckly I had other martial arts training which help. The first 6 months was horse training in the back of his small store. He sold herbs ,magazines , news paper from china etc. In 1964 I think black belt magazine did an interview with him ,Im mentioned in the article as his long time student.They took a lot of pitures but they left out most of them. I also received my certificate in 1964 which I still have hanging in my home. So as to the question about linrage I guess since I was the first non chinese student. I'm retired now but i continue tokeep my mind active and my body as well as it will let me.

Thanks for your time ,Sifu Jim Anestasi:)

[Steeeve]

Sifu Antestasi

Hope to see you to our forum


http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nggakuen/

Steeve

[chingjong]

Sifu Anestasi,

I have left you a private message. I look forward to your response.

[TenTigers]

so Sifu Jim...who IS that guy from the Bruce Tegner books???!!!
c'mon, ya gotta know!

[Jim Anestasi]

Ten Tigers, Hello I'm am not familiar with those books or Bruce Tegner, If i had a piture of him prehaps i would recognise him. When did he study with master Wong.
Why are you asking these questions? is he a fake or something else??.

Sorry as i can't help at this time. Sifu Jim :D

[kal]

In California there is also James McNeil.
He was a student under Ralph Shun (who was a senior student of Ark Wong).
Sifu McNeil also learned Splashing Hands from Tiny Lefiti who in turn learned it from Ark Wong. He still teaches Combination form, Small Cross form and the animal forms etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In California there is also James McNeil.
He was a student under Ralph Shun (who was a senior student of Ark Wong).
Sifu McNeil also learned Splashing Hands from Tiny Lefiti who in turn learned it from Ark Wong. He still teaches Combination form, Small Cross form and the animal forms etc.

What is that "splashing hands" thing ?

[kal]

What is that "splashing hands" thing ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashing_hands

It was taught to McNeil by Tiny Lefiti. He learned it from two teachers: firstly a general in Taiwan and then Ark Wong. Apparently the general and Ark Wong were the only people that knew this system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah...the footwork I have seen on Youtube tends to not be very "power oriented".
Or at least looks that way which could be the whole point when viewed by the public.

Thanks.

[Steeeve]

Gm Wong never teach the splashing hand....maybe Sifu Jim could talk about ...he s training under Gm Wong ....

Sifu Tiny learned some Ng a kuen and incorporated it to his system the splashing hands even the forms of ng ga are done following the footwork of splashing hands .... lately He became the Co founder of Lima Lama ...a hawaii kenpo style blending some stuff.... good style by the way

Steeve

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello everyone, As to Who is Bruce Tegner, I did a google search and found out him. I now remember him from long ago,I guess he has past on. He was a Judo guy as I remember and had a following in hollywood area of So. Ca.,He wasn't very well liked by some other martial arts people.My wife tells me that we met him at one time ,but i do not remember.I think he learned a little here & there and called it a martial art.
I remember Ralph Shun he was taught mostly by me & master Wong,also we wrote a book for him.I still have a copy.Ralph was a good student as he came to class about twice a week.As for this thing called splashing hands,I never heard master Wong talk about it.I learned every thing that he new as that is what he told me at that time. He also taught me Dim Muk,I still have the charts that he drew & marked etc. I hope this helps you all.

Sifu Jim:D

[TenTigers]

Hi Sifu Jim,
In the sixties, Bruce Tegner was pretty much the only guy who wrote books on Martial Arts, and he wrote on EVERYTHING.Bruce Tegner's complete book of Karate,Bruce Tegner's complete book on Judo, etc,etc.
Well, in the late sixties, he was the only guy to have ever mentioned Kung-Fu-besides Bruce Lee, and me being a Kato fanatic, gobbled everything I could get on the subject. The guy demonstrating in his book wore the same black and white satin uniform as Ark Wong. Some of what he demonstrated had names like, whipping branch block,(low double block)scorpion blow,(back knuckle strike)monkey blow(elbow strike), rising deer block(double rising block), and forms like cross form(+), Kung Line form(I),Rice Line form(*).

[Jim Anestasi]

As mentioned in my post I really dont remember much about that time as to him. I was with master Wong When he had ordered too uniforms to be made forhim & I. So copy it would be easy if he had a couple pictures. As I stated earlier this was in 1958.
Master Wong taught me only different stances for the first 6 months then very slowly started showing me hand positions,then movement, all the time in the back of his store. Finally we would teach me in the parking lot behind the store.
Nobody new what Kung Fu was back then,I heard about an old man who teaches kung fu and had a store in old china town. I made several trips before I found his store. Then I hung around his store everyday and started talking to him, after much time I asked him if he taught kung fu, he said he did and only taught Chinese. This was already known by me, so I just kept going down to his shop and talking to him about kung fu, I told him that I was Trained in a few other Japanese arts. The rest is history. BTW standing in horse stances for 30 minutes at a time is no fun But I was determined to get him to teach me. He had a few arguments with a few of his customers about it.I trained for 6 to seven days a week.Master Wong was always watching me as I worked out. One thing he demanded from his students was to a strong stance for this is where your power comes from. Standing in the front horse without moving is very difficult.

The reference to splashing hands I think came from a few techniques called slapping hands.

I hope this info. helps.

Sifu Jim:D

[kal]

.As for this thing called splashing hands,I never heard master Wong talk about it.I learned every thing that he new as that is what he told me at that time. He also taught me Dim Muk,I still have the charts that he drew & marked etc. I hope this helps you all.

Sifu Jim:D


Hello Sifu Jim,
According to Tiny Lefiti, GM Ark Wong kept his knowledge of Splashing Hands secret. It may be that Tiny Lefiti was the only person whom he passed Splashing Hands to.

When Tiny came to him with his letter of introduction, GM Wong first denied that he knew Splashing Hands!

Here is some info: http://www.littlenineheaven.com/spteacher.html


Before he left Taiwan he asked his teacher where he could finish his training in Splashing Hands. His teacher gave him a letter to give to Master Ark Yuey Wong asking him to accept Tiny as his student. At first Master Wong refused claiming he knew nothing of the style. However, with Tiny's persistence he was finally accepted.


According to this page, Splashing Hands is a complete system, not just a technique. It has basics, short sequences and 9 forms.
http://www.littlenineheaven.com/splash.html


Here you can see Tiny Lefiti demoing the Splashing Hands Combination Form.

http://www.littlenineheaven.com/home_files/sphands.jpg

[Jim Anestasi]

Perhaps you can tell me what time this was taught to him & just where he learned this style of " slashing hands" was taught to him by master Wong?. I would like to verify this claim. I'm not trying to say that he didn't learn from master Wong.
Master taught me a 10 set form called slapping hands , they had very fast movements and very hard strikes,and were very powerful. I was just about a live in student as I was with him almost everyday.

Just curious , Thanks Sifu Jim.:D

[kal]

Perhaps you can tell me what time this was taught to him & just where he learned this style of " slashing hands" was taught to him by master Wong?. I would like to verify this claim.


Hi Sifu Jim.

I'm afraid I can't help with exact dates. However, Tiny Lefiti said he first learned Splashing Hand in Taiwan from General Wong. This must have been in the 1950s.
After that, the general told him that the only other teacher of Splashing Hands was GM Ark Wong in the USA. He then gave Lefiti a letter of introduction to Ark Wong. So this was possibly late 1950s or early to mid 1960s.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but you can find the sources here:

http://www.kungfupower.com/splashinghands.html



Master taught me a 10 set form called slapping hands , they had very fast movements and very hard strikes,and were very powerful.

That sounds very interesting. Just so I don't misunderstand you, how do you define a "set" and a "form"? Is a set simply a shorter sequence? The reason I ask is because Splashing Hands has 10 short combat sequences called "Browns" which are sometimes linked together to make one long sequence or form. I wonder if this is possibly what you learned.

I've found some footage of these 10 Browns linked together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPMsj2B5Fw

Does this look at all like the slapping hands form you learned?

Here you can see some of the Browns individually:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NQ1l5fAuqk

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Kai
The slapping hand set's are short series of movements, usually done with a partner only after the student has become proficient. A form [ kata ] is a long sequence of set's together.
I looked at those video's and I found the lighting was not very good to see all of the moves. The stances looked like Choy Gar style but not exactly, the kicks are different Some of the blocks look similar. Hard to see when he has his back to you, if you have a video that breaks it down I would like to see it , you wouldn't need to send all of the set's,just key moves.Maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

I hope this helps you.
Sifu Jim.:D

[kal]

Thanks for the info, Sifu Jim.
I've been searching the web for more details and any video footage.
You might find these sites interesting as they go into more detail about the history of Splashing Hand and the relationship between Lefiti and GM Ark Wong.

http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/splashinghands/student%20handbook%20splashing%20hands.doc

http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/FAQ/FAQ%20Splashing%20Hands.html

The second link gives the Chinese name and characters of the system.

I also found some clearer footage on the link below:
http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/footage/footage.html
There's a nice two-person application of Brown shown.

Finally, I also found this syllabus. Is there any overlap with what you learned from GM Ark Wong.
http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syllabus/oldsyllabus.html

[Jim Anestasi]

Kal; Hello , Well after watching those video's some would not respond, but I got a good look at the ones I could.I have come to the conclusion that there are some movements that come from a few basic forms, like the small cross, butterfly form and possibility a few others. Master Wong's style was based on circles both large and small, also the stances were very strong and the heel was rarely raised from the floor unless you were in a cross stance or drop door stance. I saw some straight legged kicks master Wong would not have taught this type kick.There is a closing salute that we used in one of video's. There are some techniques from our system but they have been changed, altered. This was probably done to flow with Mr.Lafiti own style.Back in 1964 we opened the Wah Que Studio of Chinese Kungfu,Everyone was welcome, as the school got going we had alot of people taklng pictures of are basic forms so how those pictures were used I do not know. As I opened & closed the school every day, you might say I just about lived there.During this time we had many different students that came & left . Most could not take the Horse stance training,This was away of weeding out the ones that could not . We also gave alot of demonstrations in those days all were filmed. Getting back to the subject,There are seems to be a lot of mixtures of different styles mixed together. That is not a bad thing if I works use it. And if he used parts of Master Wong's system as primus Thats o.k. with me.

Regards Sifu Jim:):D

[kal]

Thanks again Sifu Jim.
What you say about never raising the heel struck me as interesting, because Splashing Hands seems to have a LOT of raising the heel in their "shuffling" footwork. They also train on a painted box on the floor.
I'm getting more and more puzzled aboutthe origins of this Splashing hands style. Did you ever meet a person called Tiny Lefiti at GM Wong's school? Since you were there so much time and opening and closing the place, I'm sure you would have known all of GM Wong's students. Especially someone who came with a letter of recommendation from Taiwan.
I'd also like to get to the bottom of where this Splashing Hands comes from.
If it didn't come from GM Ark Wong then where exactly did it come from?

[Jim Anestasi]

kal, The lifting of heels may come from Kenpo Karate, Im not sure.
Painting of the foot work on the was introduced by me with the approval Master Wong. It was a very good traing tool. Once the student was shown how to use it made my job as student teacher a lot easier.
As to Mr.Tiny Lefiti I do not remember meeting him or teaching him.If someone else can refresh my memory please do. I started in 1958 With Master Wong so alot of time has past.
Kal are you going to enroll in that style? or are you just interested?What are you studing now?.

Regards Sifu Jim:)

[kal]

Hello sifu Jim,
Yeah I find the style looks quite fascinating and I'm thinking of possibly enrolling on a live-in training course in Caliornia's retreat. Depends on the money though:(
I remember reading that Ed Parker Kenpo was actually developed (in part) from Splashing Hands, not the other way around. Same thing with Limalama.
The plot thickens!

[Steeeve]

Who Know :)

Interesting discussion .....

Steeve

[kal]

Who Know :)

Interesting discussion .....

Steeve

Yes, it is. And it's still a bit mysterious exactly where this style came from.
Who else is left from those original GM Ark Wong school days that may be able to shed some light on it? I wonder if Seming Ma would know. He's GM Ark Wong's grandson isn't he?
Ed Parker and Lefiti apparently were friends (both being Polynesian descent) so Parker might have been a good person to ask as well, but sadly he is deceased.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this whole thing. I know, of course, that practically al CMA have origin stories that are more legend than anything else, for example the story of Ng Mui and Wing Chun or Chang San Fend and tai chi chuan. That's par for the course. But in the case of Splashing Hands, we are only talking about 40-50 years ago and so there must still be people from those days who can confirm or deny the story, especially when such a well-known master like Ark Wong is involved.

[Steeeve]

I wonder if Seming Ma would know. He's GM Ark Wong's grandson isn't he?


Yes He is :)

and no splashing hands in Ng ga kuen ....but some ng ga kuen in the splashing hands of Sifu Tiny...

Steeve

[kal]

and no splashing hands in Ng ga kuen ....but some ng ga kuen in the splashing hands of Sifu Tiny...

Steeve

Thanks Steeve. Can you give some more details about that please?
Ng ga kuen (AFAIK) is a Southern style, right? Yet Splashing Hands is said to be Northern. So something seems a bit strange here.

[Steeeve]

Kal

I dont know about splashing hands ....just saw some videos ...and some of the ng ga form doing in the splashing hands way ....

Here a tribute for ng ga GM Seming Ma from me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhf_I-QN3qA

Do you see splashing hands :)


U know lima lama ,ed parker kenpo and .....Urs research is in a good way :)

Steeve

[kal]

Dear Sifu Jim,
Did you know and train with a gentleman named Ron Chapel.
I understand he was also a very early student of GM Ark Wong.
I've found this interesting post by him, where he states that Ark Wong was a master of Splashing Hands!
This gets more and more mysterious by the day!

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269907&postcount=13


I actually began studying under Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong in the late fifties. I was introduced into a very closed culture by a schoolmate who happened to be his nephew, Douglas Wong now Grandmaster himself of White Lotus and Sil-Lum and a good friend. His other nephew is Curtis Wong founder and publisher of Inside Kung Fu magazine.

The school at that time was located in the Los Angeles Chinatown at 302 Ord Street, around the corner from the Won Kok Chinese Restaurant. (All the seniors have eaten there at one time or another with Ed Parker Sr.) It was also up the street from Bruce Lee’s “secret” LA Chinatown Kwoon at 628 College Street on the other side of Broadway. It also at one time was on Daly Street, which is also basically “around the corner.”

Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America. It is here where the legendary Haumea “Tiny” Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. “Tiny” was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.

The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wong’s. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of “Splashing Hands” he saw with “Tiny.” To put it mildly, “Tiny” was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have “Tiny” at that stage of Parker’s development. Ultimately, “Tiny” left to join Ed Parker’s black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original “Lima Lama” organization at Parker’s suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wong’s as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wong’s school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.

Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and Splashing Hands. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence. Ark Wong contributed “sets” and critical information. Lau Bun taught the initial Hung Gar and Choi Li Fut forms like “Tiger and the Crane,” James Woo provided the majority of the historical information for Parker’s “Secrets of Chinese Karate,” and it was the source of discourse that caused them to separate with two of Parker’s first black belts leaving with Woo. But James Woo collaborated on and provided the Two-Man Set that came to be known as the “Book Set,” as well as other forms. James Woo also taught Taiji Quon in Parker’s school for a period of time.

The “Star Block” was a variation on a Five Animal Blocking Routine, and was the beginning of all “sets.” The original “Finger Set” followed it almost immediately. Ark Wong was a major influence on Parker and is also the root of his understanding of structural integrity, internal energy, and nerve applications that I use today.

In all honesty although I studied with Ark Wong for several years, it was not until I actually met the legendary Ed Parker did he begin to explain what I had learned in a manner that I could really understand. I came to him with a great deal of information, but not truly understanding the applications because it was out of context until the “Kahuna” began to enlighten me as a wide eyed seventeen year old.

The Chinese martial arts community was a “closed shop,” with real information not generally taught to outsiders, and for the most part still is. They liked and embraced Ed Parker and even expressed their feelings of how much they liked him to his son after he passed. I was lucky to have a good friend named Douglas Wong.

Parker never really left “Chinese Kenpo,” but he Americanized it for his own consumption and personal art, and than created a commercial version for the vast majority of his students from the seventies on. Unfortunately, the complexities of the Chinese Sciences are not easily taught, nor were they intended to be, in general, available to most. That hasn’t changed. The level of knowledge required to teach is extradordinary. Although most lay the label of commercialization of kenpo at the feet of Ed Parker, it was actually the Tracy’s who started first and at least initially arguably more successfully.

If I were to do Ed Parker's personal tree, it would be Chow, Wong, Lefiti, with contributions by various others.

Although Ark Wong, Haumea Lefiti, and Ed Parker Sr., are no longer with us, James Wing Woo is alive and well to my knowledge.

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi;Kal
I don't remember the name,But it's possible.My training began 1958 to 68. GMWong opened the Wah Que Studio in 1964.Black Belt Mag. did a story on Sifu Wong ,My name is mentioned twice. I had studied at ED Parker school for about 6 mo.,I asked GM Wong if he knew him ? he said he didn't. I remember Jimmy Woo at the time & the break up.
Around 65 we had alot of visitors Dan Inosanto ,Bruce Lee,Douglas Wong,And many others .Ark Wong met Ed Parker at the first MA tournament At Long Beach Auditorium,AS far as I can remember, Bruce Lee gave a demo of Jeet Chuan Do.
Splashing hands was never mentioned in my presence, It was more of an Islander thing. I heard he may have taken some private lessons at one time?.Btw Sifu John Leoing student won the tournament His Name was Buna? not sure.


FWIW, Sifu jim.

[bakxierboxer]

Around 65 we had alot of visitors Dan Inosanto ,Bruce Lee,Douglas Wong,And many others .Ark Wong met Ed Parker at the first MA tournament At Long Beach Auditorium,AS far as I can remember, Bruce Lee gave a demo of Jeet Chuan Do.
Splashing hands was never mentioned in my presence, It was more of an Islander thing. I heard he may have taken some private lessons at one time?.Btw Sifu John Leoing student won the tournament His Name was Buna? not sure.
FWIW, Sifu jim.

John Leoning's student Carlos Bunda.
Carlos' student Rick Kinji won it a couple more times.

[Oso]

I studied Sil Lum in the Ark Wong lineage. Blue Ridge Kung Fu Arnis Association. GM Rick Ward's school's. http://www.blueridgekungfuinternationalheadquarters.com/

The guy in Cali you're probably referring to is Rick Ward's teacher, I think his name is David Wood but I can't remember right now. Anyway, he has been ill and to my knowledge no longer teaches, you could try calling Blue Ridge headquarters and perhaps they can steer you in the right direction.

Good luck! :)

That would be Alan (not David) Wood and so far, I've not found any proof of a connection between Wood and Sifu Wong...been looking for a while now.

fyi, the best link to 'sil lum' via BRKF is through Sifu Ward -> Sifu Pedlahore...the crane, tiger and combo forms you might know are from Pedlahore, not Wong.


------------------------------




this is possibly the best conversation I've ever read on KFM. Please, gentleman, keep it up and thank you for the candidness and information. It's great to read about the beginnings of martial arts in the US.

[bakxierboxer]

That would be Alan (not David) Wood and so far, I've not found any proof of a connection between Wood and Sifu Wong...been looking for a while now.

fyi, the best link to 'sil lum' via BRKF is through Sifu Ward -> Sifu Pedlahore...the crane, tiger and combo forms you might know are from Pedlahore, not Wong.

this is possibly the best conversation I've ever read on KFM. Please, gentleman, keep it up and thank you for the candidness and information. It's great to read about the beginnings of martial arts in the US.

Ah... try "David Cash" also in the Blue Ridge area at one time.
He claimed a lot from Wong Ark Yuey, but I don't believe he ever really taught much of it... if any. AFAIK, it was mostly a mail-order deal.

[Oso]

i was staying away from the 'K' word...


the school in question claims lineage from Wong via Alan Wood and David Kash. None of which is substantiated, afaik.


...pardon me while I gird my loins and prepare the claymores....


;)



oh, Kash never lived in the Blue Ridge...Winston Salem. Still there I think.


I sense an eminant PM or email.... :rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

i was staying away from the 'K' word...

the school in question claims lineage from Wong via Alan Wood and David Kash. None of which is substantiated, afaik.

...pardon me while I gird my loins and prepare the claymores....

;)

oh, Kash never lived in the Blue Ridge...Winston Salem. Still there I think.

I sense an eminant PM or email.... :rolleyes:

Not from me....
Guess this just shows how little I know of the geography back there.
I've been considering checking the area out for relocating.... maybe I'd better get some facts straight.
"Little things" like weather, real estate prices, etc.

[Steeeve]

John Leoning's student Carlos Bunda.
Carlos' student Rick Kinji won it a couple more times.

Kajukenbo here from Sijo Emperado

Steeve

[Oso]

wasn't expecting one from you.


if you're thinking about relocating to NC, send me an email and I'll help with insider info as much as I can.

mmelton@ashevillemartialarts.com

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Jim A.,

When you have the time would you please take a moment to read this thread? It is a question I asked nearly two years ago concerning a form supposed called the Yatchi Kune.

If you have any information concerning this form I would appreciate it if you would share it.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37361&highlight=Yatchi+Kune

Thank you,

[Steeeve]

For cantonese its probably YatTsin Kuen (1000 fist)....but no prunonciation here ...I mean the phonetic is important in chinese ..... thats came YET tsin The t is very fast so almost tchi anyway ....

Steeve

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello ,Scott I don't know if I can Help you or not, I looked in all of my form information and the only thing i can reference is this, First Power Fist or First eight power hand.
The movements and the direction are in the shape as if you draw a cross,then two diagonal lines give you the eight movements.I'm not sure but it might be something quite different I was taught so many sets or forms that it hard to recall them all,so I went to my list.

Hope this helps, Sifu Jim:D

[Steeeve]

Here Sifu Jim

You probably talk about the gung lik chuan (power fist forms) of the northern shaolin ....you could find it different version in
praying mantis ,eagle claw , and so on do it ....the 8 step or whatever are the trademark of northern style like ba gua ,Baji Quan and so on

No disrecpect here ....You learned other kung fu style before GM Wong ???

for no confusion ....here I talk or write in my name like every time i write here .....nothing to do with my sifu...

Steeve

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank You Jim and Steeeve for taking the time to read the post and give me your thoughts.

[Steeeve]

Scott Your welcome

In my ng ga kuen lineage ...we dont have this form .....maybe its the name of one of our basics routine ... but dont know .....everybody give some chinese names for look .....

The curriculum(forms) is

Salute
small cross
Butterfly
combinaition
black bird
the palm

And the five animals

plus the weapons ,two men forms ...and so on just to give a idea ...

not quantity but quality

Steeve

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello Steeve: I found some more papers from the old days ,here is a list of term's as they were told to me by GM Ark Yuey Wong.
[stances]
shi ping ma - front horse
ping gee ma - straight horse
song go ma - side horse
neu gee ma - twist horse
deu ma - hanging horse
[ natural weapons]
yeet chuan - punch with fist
chuan - fist
shou - hand
chong - elbow
que shou - bridge hand
cheung - palm push
peet shou - cut with edge of hand
chop - shou - straight hand stab
pea ya - kick
gai shlim chuey - chicken heart fist
fu jow - tiger claw
dok shir leum lee - snake tounge
hok juey - crane hand
tao chuan - knife hand
[ gar] styles
choy, lee, mok, fut, hung
[ animals]
fu tiger
lung - dragon
hok - crane
pao - leopard
shir - snake
My spelling or pronunciation is probably wrong but these are phonetically taken as Master Wong spoke them in cantonese.
Thanks for reading , Sifu Jim.
Btw, I found some old pictures of the early days, one picture is with Jimmy Woo,San Soo fame standing in front of Sifu's store & another of my wife & Sifu Wong in San Francisco.:D

[Fu-Pow]

Hello Steeve: I found some more papers from the old days ,here is a list of term's as they were told to me by GM Ark Yuey Wong.
[stances]
shi ping ma - front horse
ping gee ma - straight horse
song go ma - side horse
neu gee ma - twist horse
deu ma - hanging horse
[ natural weapons]
yeet chuan - punch with fist
chuan - fist
shou - hand
chong - elbow
que shou - bridge hand
cheung - palm push
peet shou - cut with edge of hand
chop - shou - straight hand stab
pea ya - kick
gai shlim chuey - chicken heart fist
fu jow - tiger claw
dok shir leum lee - snake tounge
hok juey - crane hand
tao chuan - knife hand
[ gar] styles
choy, lee, mok, fut, hung
[ animals]
fu tiger
lung - dragon
hok - crane
pao - leopard
shir - snake
My spelling or pronunciation is probably wrong but these are phonetically taken as Master Wong spoke them in cantonese.
Thanks for reading , Sifu Jim.
Btw, I found some old pictures of the early days, one picture is with Jimmy Woo,San Soo fame standing in front of Sifu's store & another of my wife & Sifu Wong in San Francisco.:D

That's a very strange romanization.

[Steeeve]

Thank Sifu Jim

In Fact GM Wong Speak Toysanese......the first chinese emmigate was the Toisan from Guangdong province (railroad worker)....the south china speak mostly cantonese and some toysanese (less)....

Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

Thank Sifu Jim

In Fact GM Wong Speak Toysanese......the first chinese emmigate was the Toisan from Guangdong province (railroad worker)....the south china speak mostly cantonese and some toysanese (less)....

Steeve

Although it seemed like the majority in NYC Chinatown were Toysanese during the 60s and 70s....

[Steeeve]

Like you said the first american chinese are toysanese....;)

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi, Steve , I was told by GM Wong that he was from Canton and that he spoke Cantonese. he probably spoke in a couple of dialects. He used to talk to me in chinese all the time, not just a few words but complete statements. It was hard but but I picked up on some words.

Regards Sifu Jim.:D

[Steeeve]

Howdy Sifu Jim

cantonese and toysanese .....is very near ....I dont be there ..you was there so
you know more of me :)

Jim do you learned the tuina(Massage) under Gm Wong ?

Steeve

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello, Steeve, I'm not sure which method he taught me, I remember learning nerve and muscle massage.I used to practice on my wife,She enjoyed it.
GM Wong made several trips to the orient to brush up on his acupressure & acupuncture Technology. He added those to his herb business, he did a lot of treatment on me for varies problems.
Did you learn any of these??.

Regards Sifu Jim.:D

[Steeeve]

Sifu Jim


I learned some tuina from a praying mantis teacher ..... not shiatsu here but tuina ......

Alway want to learn more but never find real one ....more interest in tuina but acupuncture is ok also like moxibustion .....herb is very special ....always interest in that ......in my life in the eighteen I would like to be be a acupuncture and tuina doctor....but I study in Metallurgie engineering and work on that ....now im a letter carrier (post men) thats the life:)

Sifu Jim do you always practice ? I mean Chinese tradionnal medecine

Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

Sifu Jim


I learned some tuina from a praying mantis teacher ..... not shiatsu here but tuina ......

Jeepers!
You'd better watch out!
There's some guy here who claims direct lineage in "tuna, hamster" and some other stuff......

[Steeeve]

We know Pete

just for talk here ,....

[bakxierboxer]

We know Pete

just for talk here ,....

Ah.... I thought I was "making a joke".......

[Jim Anestasi]

Hey, Bakxierboxer
Gotcha!!.
How's things going?.
Regards Sifu Jim.:D

[bakxierboxer]

Hey, Bakxierboxer
Gotcha!!.
How's things going?.
Regards Sifu Jim.:D

Really?
You got my "joke"?
PHEW! I thought I was "losing my touch"!
(or what I thought I had of one)

Things are perkin' along....
You?

Pete

[Jim Anestasi]

Bakxierboxer, Just rolling along as usual. May be you can answer a question for me? however I think I might send you a PM, or an email.Other wise it might open a can of worms, you know what I mean?.
Jim.:D

[bakxierboxer]

Bakxierboxer, Just rolling along as usual. May be you can answer a question for me? however I think I might send you a PM, or an email.Other wise it might open a can of worms, you know what I mean?.
Jim.:D

No problem, especially since we've already taken care of it. :D

Pete

[Steeeve]

Well Old timer Jim and Pete

You let me alone:D:D:D

Steeve:cool:

[bakxierboxer]

Well Old timer Jim and Pete

You let me alone:D:D:D

Steeve:cool:

You feeling lonesome?
Join the party.
You're welcome to get older right along with us.

[Jim Anestasi]

HI Steeve I must have dozed off,that happens a lot lately.
You are not a voice in the wilderness ,I glad you are still out there holding down the fort,you and Bakiersboxer.
You were discussing MA earlier, I studied several different systems including kobujitsu,JSA,etc. After 40 years of learning & teaching you might say I have my own style, I shows up when ever I need it. However if someone wanted to learn kung fu I would teach what I learned from GM Wong. What I meant was I would use what ever the situation called for.It is a part of me.
So long until next time.
Sifu Jim.:D

[Steeeve]

Jim

I believe we have all our own style( adapt to ours physical and mental attribute) ...even if we learned just one system or style ...or many style

At the end one style could be play with a lot of version ....I mean the GM teach his students ...this students do it on their way ...and teach it again ....at the end we have a lot of version of the same style

Sorry for my english I try hard:)

Bakxierboxer Rock on:D


Steeve

[Steeeve]

Ok some Ng Ying Kuen introduction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb_o2aJZbSc

since the thread is about GM Wong Lineage ......

time to change to more Blablabla here:D

Hope some regonize the art and more

Enjoy

Hope to see ur version soon ....

Steeve:rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

Jim

I believe we have all our own style( adapt to ours physical and mental attribute) ...even if we learned just one system or style ...or many style

Everyone will DO a style the way they are (best?) able.


At the end one style could be play with a lot of version ....I mean the GM teach his students ...this students do it on their way ...and teach it again ....at the end we have a lot of version of the same style

Adding to what I said above...
This is NOT to say that "they will have THEIR OWN style", let alone that they should teach it.... and ESPECIALLY not that they should teach it in place of the original style.


Bakxierboxer Rock on:D

???? in what way?

[bakxierboxer]

Ok some Ng Ying Kuen introduction

As opposed to Ng Gar Kin/Kuen?


Hope some regonize the art and more

"mixed feelings".....


Hope to see ur version soon ....

"Looks like" there's already enough.

[Steeeve]

Ng Ying kuen mean the 5 animal fist ...a intro to the 5 animals of NG Ga kuen

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok some Ng Ying Kuen introduction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb_o2aJZbSc

since the thread is about GM Wong Lineage ......

time to change to more Blablabla here:D

Hope some regonize the art and more

Enjoy

Hope to see ur version soon ....

Steeve:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhf_I-QN3qA&mode=related&search=

Like this one better.

[Jim Anestasi]

I think I should get all of my 8mm movies onto dvd's ,They need to be spliced together. Lots of GM Wong & my self doing forms like Tiger Comes Down From Mtn.,Combination of Tiger & Crane, some sparring, Monkey, White Tiger, Crane & more I've been wanting to do this for Years. I need to kick myself in the arse. Then put them on You Tube so I can share them with everyone.

Regards Sifu Jim.:D

[Steeeve]

Sifu Jim

Thats could be great .....to share with us

I kick your a..... for do it :):):)

Steeve

Sifu Jim

I could help you if you need help

[Steeeve]

Sanjuro

This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhf_I...elated&search=

is from me too:D

Steeve

[Steeeve]

Sifu Jim

I have a video clip of you doing some forms (tiger )...I could put it in you yube:)

Steeve

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro

This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhf_I...elated&search=

is from me too:D

Steeve

Link doesn't work.

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Steeve , Where did you get a video of me doing the tiger???.

PM on the way, Sifu Jim

[Steeeve]

sanjuro

Here the good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhf_I-QN3qA

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks,
I see you are in Ottawa, I am in Mississauga myself.

[Steeeve]

Sanjuro

Do you train ? maybe WC ...Sunny Tang or ?????

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro

Do you train ? maybe WC ...Sunny Tang or ?????

Please don't bring up Tang...
Did WC and Hung Gar.

[Steeeve]

Here a new videos of the tribute of Ng Ga (GM Ark Yueh Wong)...its a tribute to sifu Jim Anestasi(sifu Jim)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DS1QWoT_-E


Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

Here a new videos of the tribute of Ng Ga (GM Ark Yueh Wong)...its a tribute to sifu Jim Anestasi(sifu Jim)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DS1QWoT_-E

Nicer footage than most of what's available from "back then".

Jim... do you remember who that is with you with spear vs staff outside of John's school in North Hollywood at 30 seconds or so?

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Pete. That is David I forgot his last name. He was around early on but stay. Ive' another picture of him & me in another posed position.
Your busy bee today.

Jim.:)

[Steeeve]

Bonjour Sifu Jim et Pete


Nicer footage than most of what's available from "back then".


Pete ...stay tune more to come soon :D....for the old timer:)

Steeve

[Robertyoung]

Hello Jim,

When you went to your father's funeral you stopped by Sifu Shewmaker's Wah Que studio in Covina. You had a freestyle match with one of his students. That was me. It was a honor to meet you .

Ron has always spoke of you with respect and pride as have all of us at Wah Que.
Your a legend with us.

Robert

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello Robert, It's nice to hear from you, that was along time ago.I remember the [ match] .
I just got through talking to your old sifu in fact.
Are you teaching? . I will tell him we chatted.
It's good to hear from the past, don't be a stranger.
Regards Sifu Jim.:D

[Robertyoung]

Hello Robert, It's nice to hear from you, that was along time ago.I remember the [ match] .
I just got through talking to your old sifu in fact.
Are you teaching? . I will tell him we chatted.
It's good to hear from the past, don't be a stranger.
Regards Sifu Jim.:D


Hello Jim,

It's nice to hear from you too. Yes I am still teaching. I talked with Sifu Shewmaker
today on the phone. Ron rarely talks on the internet anymore, in fact never did.
But when it comes to G/M A. Wong, his family (you), his students, and his friends he does.

I will not post much on this site either or any site. I just happened to see your post. Real nice to hear from you after all these years.

I asked Ron to send you my e-mail. We can talk then.

Regards, Robert

[Golden Spider]

Please excuse me; while not meaning to butt into the conversation, I have been an admirer of Wong Sifu for several years now, and have a question.
~ Is there anyone practising his style near east Tennessee?
Many thanks!

[Steeeve]

BTW, Steeve you know all this, why did you not mention it ?[/QUOTE]


Uncle Ron

I prefer let you the senior(old timer) answer this questions...and give the information Since I was not there ...with GM Wong

Steeve

Nice to see you here Uncle Ron

[Robertyoung]

Hi Golden Spider,

I recall someone from way back, can't remember who, however it was around the early sixies. I will take a look at some the old note books I have from those days.

Sifu Ron:)

Just a note, good to see you both Sifu Ron and Sifu Jim posting.

Thanks for the mail Sifu Jim.

Robert
:)

[Jim Anestasi]

Uncle Ron,
I Searched around on the web andI didn't realize how many schools use G.M.Ark Y. Wong name as being associated with him. I was wondering if every school or person could but down the date that they started training and who taught them,also there certification by G.M.Wong With his seal. If not that From their teacher. I think It would interesting to see Who is out there, probably thousands.

Any way ,Later Uncle Jim.:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron,
Nice to hear from you.
Those two form's are very good, I remember them well very deadly .
They should be taught only to students that can be trusted.
The slapping hand sets come from Fut Gar, Hok yeet chi juey if my memory is correct, I probably didn't spell it right.

Bye now, Sifu Jim.:D

[Robertyoung]

Sifu Ron,
Nice to hear from you.
Those two form's are very good, I remember them well very deadly .
They should be taught only to students that can be trusted.
The slapping hand sets come from Fut Gar, Hok yeet chi juey if my memory is correct, I probably didn't spell it right.

Bye now, Sifu Jim.:D

Hello Sifu Jim,

How long did you know Seeming Ma- Ark Wong'd grandson ? Have you ever heard of the Bull Style ?

Robert

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi, Robert

I never meet him,I moved away in late 68. So I don't remember seeing him at sifu school.
Do you mean the one you bring a shovel with you?, It was a good work out with that shovel.
There was alot of talk about him coming over from china. My wife Typed all the letters that we sent to different V.I.P.'s like senators & congress members etc. It was about 1962 when we started trying to help G.M.Wong get his family to the U.S.
The good old days .
Keep in touch.
Sifu Jim.:D

[Jim Anestasi]

:confused: I know Sifu Wong did not teach those form's as in the ten years that I was there.
You say that karate moves are in these forms, No way. Made up by someone else p
robably.

Talk with you later, Uncle Jim;)

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Ron,

Attaboy ,you tell them how it was.

Sifu Jim:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Hey Ron,
I remember when Ralph started , he started taking private lessons from Sifu Wong.
After awhile he came to the training classes with the other students. Ralph was always very intent about learning Kung Fu.I recall showing him the three star,Here I was 220lbs and he was 110 lbs he didn't complain but I could see he was in much pain,he showed up for class with big bruise on his forearms. He was a good student and learned from SIfu & myself. I used to chase him all over the school doing nothing but throwing kicks at him while he blocked ,at first he had trouble blocking them but after a time he started to get the hang of it. We did this when we were alone or only a few students around. The good old days.

Sifu Jim:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Hey Ron,
I used to try and take it easy on you guys,He He.Do you recall how many spear shafts that I broke in the parking lot behind Sifu Wong's store? had to be a few,As sifu got mad at me because I kept breaking them,Finally he had some made very thick, I was trying to pull my overhead cuts as you were under neath .:D

[Jim Anestasi]

I think the dates are about right but I'm not positive, And I have talked with Sifu Richard Vera several times he knows alot about the past that I missed. It is to bad that Ralph is no longer with us I'm sure he would have a lot to pass on with us.

Sifu Jim:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Whats up Ron.
Gilbert Bates do not recall? give me a hint so I can jog my memory.
I hope the pain Ralph had wasn't caused by me, as I used to put him thru a lot of hard work outs, He never complained as far as I know.
Well if the boat is rocking you have to have a strong stance so with the crane you Fly.
The students that you saw were into what is no called MMA. The style had Wing Chun,San Soo,Kicking boxing,full contact with & without head gear,I taught them how to fall & put themselves in the correct position as well as aiki bujutsu,Staff long & short,Tanto Jutsu as well as Bokken Techniques, And several with The Katana etc.

Later Sifu Jim:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Hey Ron,
I was remembering after I left southern cal. about 1 year had passed when I received a phone call from Sifu Wong,he wanted to come and visit me & my wife.
When he arrived he took us out to dinner a Chinese Restaurant for dinner. We had a good meeting, he wanted me to come back and teach full time for him. At that time I had a good job & so did my wife. I was tempted as I really missed him. I took him to the airport and he flew back to L.A. The next time he called he wanted me to come down and he would get me a part in the movie Kung Fu,he said I would make $100.00 a day playing the part Of a Sil Lum Monk,Again I was Tempted so I talked to my boss about it and said that would put his business in a bind. So I called Sifu & told him the situation, I could tell he was disappointed so was I.
The next time I saw Him was when my father passed away That was in 1974 ,He showed me his new school and the plans he had for it and he still wanted me to come back & teach for him, It was hard not to give in but we had just bought a home.
As I remember you coming up for a work out, as no one could push you like I could.
See ya Jim:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the end, after Sifu died, things got worst among whatever
people were left at Sifu's, still is. Noone has held it together. Things started falling apart in the 70"s.


Hearing things like that always saddens me...

[sanjuro_ronin]

It saddens me too. I am just glad that Jim and I can shed some light about it while we are able too.

What are your feelings about today's Kung Fu Sifu's and students sanjuro-ronin. What is your age and how long have you been into it ?

Thank you for the reply.

Sifu Ron :)

My exposure to kung fu is more limited than my exposure to JMA, but from what I have seen, its not in a good state, I have only met 5 people that have been able to use kung fu in a "real fight" that I have seen ( anecodotes are just that).
I have been doing MA since 78, and in that time there is one simple fact in regards to TCMA that I have seen, outside closed door and private kwoons, the fighting quality is not that good compared to the sport combat systems.

I blame the teachers AND the students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you 100 % sanjuro, ;)

however I really don't think it is the students fault. How do you arrive at that conclusion. Students do as they are taught.

Self-defense , child saftey, and health are our goals. The ones that stay with me can defend themselves very well. It takes time and lots of hard work.

But I know exactly what you are referring to.

Where did you study( what city) and do you teach today ?

Best regards, Sifu Ron

I put some of the blame on the students because way too many are happy to be feed sh!t and say "yummy, what a cook".

I studied many systems, as per my profile, but the TCMA ones were:
Wing Chun, Hung Gar, JKD, Chen Taiji in the Toronto area in Canada.
I also studied in Portugal and Macao.

I stopped teaching ( kyokushin and Judo hybrid) in 98 (publicly) Running the family business, wife and 2 kids make free time non-exsistent.

I still teach anyone who wants to learn, whatever they want to learn, from MMA, to Kali, to kenjutsu to Muay Thai, I rarely teach the "finer points", most people don't want them anyways I find.

[Oso]

I put some of the blame on the students because way too many are happy to be feed sh!t and say "yummy, what a cook".



well put.

i'm feeling that there is less and less of a middle ground of people seeking the martial arts.

you have the super hard core wanna be mma folks and then you have the people you describe above.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well put.

i'm feeling that there is less and less of a middle ground of people seeking the martial arts.

you have the super hard core wanna be mma folks and then you have the people you describe above.

I don't think it is that bad, at least I hope it isn't.
I think what you said applies to TMA more than sport combat arts.
Many people look to TMA for the esoteric and will not be happy unless they "find it" so many instructors give "it" to them.
Buyer beware.

I don't agree that any instructor, who by becoming an instructor has taken up the "standard" of a given MA, should compromise their system by teaching crap, no matter how many people "want it", it is unethical.

[Oso]

I don't think it is that bad, at least I hope it isn't.

IME it is.
I think what you said applies to TMA more than sport combat arts.

right, because in a 'combat' sport it's right out there in front that you are going to eat bitter.

in TMA the movies have misinformed the masses about alleged 'secrets' on top of modern marketing techniques add to the hype of the benefits of training but nobody talks up front about the hard work involved in actually gaining skill and for the few of us actually trying to teach TMA so that effective skills are learned the middle margin is seemingly nil...at least here in this town.

Many people look to TMA for the esoteric and will not be happy unless they "find it" so many instructors give "it" to them.
Buyer beware.

I don't agree that any instructor, who by becoming an instructor has taken up the "standard" of a given MA, should compromise their system by teaching crap, no matter how many people "want it", it is unethical.

I agree.

However, if one wants to have a commercially viable school, as a TMA practitioner competing against others who SAY they are traditional, there is a case for 'when in rome'. I don't agree with it and I have dug my heels in but have had to seriously change the introductory levels at my school so they aren't as hard as I first set them up to be...I think it's called makeing something more 'accessible'...gawdam I hate political correctness. :mad:

[Steeeve]

Hey

http://mondirector.proboards107.com/index.cgi

Com mon in

[sanjuro_ronin]

;)
Well understood. I agree 100%.

Your point brings up something I would like your opinion on....
What are you thoughts of Video training ?
The MA Magazines are full of complete Black Belt courses from ground zero on up.

Perhaps the middleground, has gone underground.

Best to everyone, Sifu Ron

I have often said that, video training is a tool that can be very useful IF there is a point of reference to go with it.
Example:
before I took my first lesson of BJJ, I studied a bunch of DVD's from various sources and when I rolled the first time with the head instructor, which was also my first class ever in BJJ ( private) he said, " I see you have done this before".
Now, take into account that I am a Shodan in Judo and as such, BJJ doesn't have anything "new" for me technique-wise so, there is a prime of example how one can learn from a video WHEN they have a point of reference.

I got my BB in TKD in 2 years, but I was already a BB in Kyokushin when I did, again, point of reference.

Videos are horrible for a beginner, of some value to a intermediate and can be of great value to an experienced MA, IF there is some sort of reference point to what is being watched.

Learning Aikido from a video when all you have is Wing Chung experience is NOT a good idea.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for the middle ground going underground....
I think that true knowledge can never be passed on to those that don't deserve it, even if you give it to them.
Reason why I never believed in "inner" or 'secret" teachings, it pointless and just degrades the skill level of a system.
Take whatever is the most advanced and secret teachings of your system, teach them to everyone and you will see that only those "deserving" will "get it" anyways.

[Steeeve]

Kyokushin is a very good Karate style.....very wise to adds some BJJ Now you are (equiper pour veiller tard)...Why search for more ?

Sanju Where in ontario you live ?

Steeve

[SIFU RON]

I have often said that, video training is a tool that can be very useful IF there is a point of reference to go with it.
Example:
before I took my first lesson of BJJ, I studied a bunch of DVD's from various sources and when I rolled the first time with the head instructor, which was also my first class ever in BJJ ( private) he said, " I see you have done this before".
Now, take into account that I am a Shodan in Judo and as such, BJJ doesn't have anything "new" for me technique-wise so, there is a prime of example how one can learn from a video WHEN they have a point of reference.

I got my BB in TKD in 2 years, but I was already a BB in Kyokushin when I did, again, point of reference.

Videos are horrible for a beginner, of some value to a intermediate and can be of great value to an experienced MA, IF there is some sort of reference point to what is being watched.

Learning Aikido from a video when all you have is Wing Chung experience is NOT a good idea.

You have a " good head on your shoulders". I have asked this question many times and you have answered it the best. I feel the same way.

thanks Sifu Ron

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kyokushin is a very good Karate style.....very wise to adds some BJJ Now you are (equiper pour veiller tard)...Why search for more ?

Sanju Where in ontario you live ?

Steeve

Brampton and I am always searching, not always for more, but always searching to improve, perfect, grow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You speak words of wisdom. What is your age ?

Students have to earn their knowledge.

Have you ever encountered M/A schools that test people fpr a B/B for a price ?
$ seems to influence many things in life.

Thank you again Sanjuro

Sifu Ron

I am a spry young 38, started MA in 78, so a "pup"compared to some here.
Most MA schools charge for belt examination, judo, karate and TKD always have, the most I have seen have been in TKD dojangs, sometimes as much as a yearly membership fee.
$ is the key factor in commercial MA schools, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that quality must suffer, though it usually does.

Balance is the key.

Kung fu is no different, though I think that some schools tend to develop a split persona in regards to teaching - commercial teaching for the masses and "inner teachings" for selected few, lile that they can have the best of both worlds, but I believe this to be in error, one can have both a commercial school and high caliber fighters, its just a question of making it clear to the practioners they THEY must decide which training to follow.

[SIFU RON]

I agree.

However, if one wants to have a commercially viable school, as a TMA practitioner competing against others who SAY they are traditional, there is a case for 'when in rome'. I don't agree with it and I have dug my heels in but have had to seriously change the introductory levels at my school so they aren't as hard as I first set them up to be...I think it's called makeing something more 'accessible'...gawdam I hate political correctness. :mad:


Well put Oso, :D:D

I enjoy your words and they are so true.

Sifu Ron

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Guys,
I thought I might jump in here,In all the years that I taught K/F or JSA etc. I never opened a school. However I did teach in garages, homes, school yards, parks etc.
With no overhead I would keep my classes small as I felt that I could give better instruction. It seems that we have similar back grounds as Sifu Ron does who is a long time Friend. I have followed your posts for sometime and I think you have a good outlook on M.A.'s. Just 38 wow, I wish I was that age again. Anyway I will follow your posts as time permits.
Sifu Jim:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks Sanjuro

Have you ever heard of Ark Yuey Wong ?

He was the first Chinese Kung Fu Master to openly teach Kung Fu to all races back in 1960. Quite a story here. Sifu Jim and I (Ron Shewmaker) were his first non- Chinese Students.

WE are both over the speed limit of 65;

GM Ark Y. Wong was inducted into the Martial Arts History Museum ( in Southern California) last year along with 5 other old time greats, they all something in comon, they introduced M/A
into the USA.

www.MAmuseum.com

It is good to talk with you, and to share, you are well informed.

Best regards, on Shewmaker

Yes I have heard of the late , great GM Wong, have one of his DVD's and two of his books.
I have spoken with Pete Robinson in regards to GM Wong.
One is humbled when speaking of true pioneers and legends in the MA.

As the saying goes, they don't make them like that anymore.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Guys,
I thought I might jump in here,In all the years that I taught K/F or JSA etc. I never opened a school. However I did teach in garages, homes, school yards, parks etc.
With no overhead I would keep my classes small as I felt that I could give better instruction. It seems that we have similar back grounds as Sifu Ron does who is a long time Friend. I have followed your posts for sometime and I think you have a good outlook on M.A.'s. Just 38 wow, I wish I was that age again. Anyway I will follow your posts as time permits.
Sifu Jim:D

I have had great teachers and been smart enough to listen and understand.
Though me and some TMA don't see eye-to-eye in regards to MMA, I am and always will be a "traditionalist".

[sanjuro_ronin]

The group pictures at WahQue in GM Ark Wong's book has both my picture and Jim's. Jim is in many photos, as is Ralph Shun, and Dan Inosanto.
I wasn't around during these photo shoots , but my mug is in a few.

Pete Robinson, I can't place him. I remember faces, but names sometimes escape me.

Who did you train with and where ?

Being humble is rare these days.

Thanks, Sanjuro

Sifu Ron ;)

In terms of TCMA, my last instructor was named Wong and he was in Toronto's Chinatown.
I am not that humble, though I try to remind myself that I am as full of crap as everyone else.
I have made some very crappy decisions in my life, such is life,

[SIFU RON]

In terms of TCMA, my last instructor was named Wong and he was in Toronto's Chinatown.
I am not that humble, though I try to remind myself that I am as full of crap as everyone else.
I have made some very crappy decisions in my life, such is life,

We have all made crappy decisions in life. It is part of life.

Sifu Ron

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ain't THAT the truth.

Still, we learn from our mistakes and keep at it.
Stuff like not taking the internet seriously for example :D

I have been blessed to have been exposed to some fine MA, good characters and bad ( we always need both), but all fine fighters.
I have had the luck to see real kung fu in action, though not so much in finding it, LOL !
I have come to the conclusion that true kung fu is an advanced discipline, to be studied as something to perfect, rather than to learn how to fight.
There are better systems for that, in the short run I mean, like boxing, MT and such.
Kung fu is the next step after becoming an able fighter, once that is done, kung fu fills in the "missing spots" quite nicely.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Right idea?
Yes, I hope so.
Getting it is a different story it seems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,

You mentioned your Sifu in Canada name was Wong. What did he teach ?

Where is he from ?

Thanks, Sifu Ron

That is kind of a long story...I was introduced to him through someone that I "helped" while I was bouncing and was allowed to partake in private leassons for about 9 months or so...he teaches Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Do Pai (SP?).
Though in his "commercial" school he teaches "karate and kung fu".

He was never to "happy" to have me there, I was the only "white boy" at the time and while I got lots of sparring and "matches" from my time there, I must say that the best part was seeing him in action.
He was never rude or disrespectful, it was just clear that I was there as a favour to someone that had some clout with him.

Don't really wanna get into more detail over the net, I am sure you understand.

My time did, however, open my apetite for the "real kung fu".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interresting. Good Kung Fu, (fact is good M/A ) are good for the apetite.....
Hawaiin Punch anyone?

I enjoy talking with you very much.

I would like to know more, however that is up to you. Feel free to e-mail me at

WAHQUE@YAHOO.COM

if you like.

What was or is your Sifu's age ?
Was he born in China ?
Take care, Sifu Ron

Email sent,
He was in his 60's I think, his commercial school has been around since the 80's if not longer, probably 70's.
He was born in China, yes.

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Guys. You know the more I read Sanjuro-ronin threads the more he sounds like me. I searched for the best M.A. that at the time , I tried Ju Jitsu, Kenpo Karate. Shotokan style, and trained in JSA, Aiki Bu Jitsu etc. Then I heard a rumor about an elderly Chinese man that taught Kung Fu!!!. The only problem was that he only taught Chinese & a few Islanders. But That lit a fire under me and changed my life forever.Now 50 years later I'm still talking about my adventure into G.M.Wong's Kung Fu.

Sifu Jim:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good background. ;)

Sounds like a good Sifu.

Sounds like you enjoyed it.

Question, have you ever heard of the Hung Ga Boat Style of Kung Fu ?

Take care, Sifu Ron

I have never heard of that style, sounds like something "cultivated" on the "red boats", yes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Guys. You know the more I read Sanjuro-ronin threads the more he sounds like me. I searched for the best M.A. that at the time , I tried Ju Jitsu, Kenpo Karate. Shotokan style, and trained in JSA, Aiki Bu Jitsu etc. Then I heard a rumor about an elderly Chinese man that taught Kung Fu!!!. The only problem was that he only taught Chinese & a few Islanders. But That lit a fire under me and changed my life forever.Now 50 years later I'm still talking about my adventure into G.M.Wong's Kung Fu.

Sifu Jim:cool:

Yes, the search started that way and, even though I know realize that it is the man, not the style, I am still searching, not for the best MA, just for what I don't have and might need.
If nothing else, I get to know great people and teachers, how is that a bad thing?

If you would like to contact me directly, like Sifu Ron has, you can here:
pau1@bellnet.ca

That is pau and the #1, not "l".

:)

[Steeeve]

Thats sound like wing chun ....the read boat Opera:D

Fast

[Steeeve]

Uncle Ron

Loong Chuan mean Dragon fist......the red boat guys was Wing chun .....thats why he used the horse stance of WC Yee jee keem yeung ma ....pigeon tooe in stance..... and from where the long pole weapons born....

Take Ron

Steeve

[banditshaw]

The Red Boat Hung Style is probably known these days as Old Hung Ga.
The Red Boats were havens for the escapees of Southern Siu Lam after the pillage by the Chings. It has been said That Gee Sin Sim See was on the boats and taught the laymen during and after The Tiger Style Boxing which later was incorporated by the layman Hung Hei Goon who was a tea merchant and Luk Ah Choi who was actually a Manchurian. From there the Hung Kuen story pretty much starts.
I'm no expert or historian. This is what i have gathered after some research and conversations.

[Steeeve]

Gee Sim is a legend in southern Style .....He had teah Hung fei Hung and also this guys of Wing chun(Wong Bok leung ,Dai fa Min Kam and so on) ...soo the father of WC and Hung Gar ...now we have Gee sim WC and the old hung kuen ..
Do you saw the Hung kuen of Sifu Lao Kim ?very different of the modern hung gar... For sure the hung ga of GM Wong was the old school.....but was a part of his style ....We have the 5 family in Ng Ga kuen.....

Steeve

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron,

Now your talking ,The form Hand thru the heart is a short powerful deadly set I remember it well. How about Bamboo shoots thru heart, Do you remember that one as well. G.M.Wong liked these sets as Hung Ga was his favorite style.
Many years ago when I first met him I asked what style he taught,he answered Choi ,Li,Mok,Fut, Hung gar & The Tiger,dragon,crane,snake,leopard.
I dont remember if we filmed them, probably did. Do you have all those old films on dvd's?.
Sifu Jim:D:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bamboo Shoots Thru The Heart.

Great one, all Hung-Ga Sifu taught us was powerful deadly styles, that is after all what we wanted and what we received.

Through the years I have discovered most peole really don't desire putting in the effort to learn the Hung-Ga Styles as we were taught, it is really, really, hard work.

Remember Monk Pang's Dragon Palm ?

Take Care, Sifu Ron

Sometimes, some of us couldn't spend 10 years to learn the good stuff...:(
Sad, but true nevertheless.
Other times the good stuff was never taught nor explained, perhaps because it was not known...

I venture to say that TCMA would be in a better state right now if the good stuff had remained in more than just the hands of a few, no mater how deserving they were.

I hope this doesn't comes as a overly harsh critique, just that it seems that TCMA is much maligned lately and the reason is the apperant lack of fighters.

[banditshaw]

Very interresting banditshaw.;)

Yes the Hung-Ga Boat Style is an old style. My favorite is the a form from the Hung-Ga Boat Style he called Hand Thru The Heart ( a closed Fist Style). The Hung-Ga Tiger-Crane is also an excellant one.

I never asked many questions about History from Ark Wong. He explained things as we went along. He knew I was not interrested in history, I was interrested in fighting (self-defense). I let him pick and chose the method or manner in which he trained me. I am glad I did. It was (and still is) hard work.

Thank you for the information banditshaw.:)

Sifu Ron

Your welcome Ron. Thank you to you and Jim for sharing your stories and insights as well.

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Ron,
You were always a talker,as salesmanship was your calling.You still out talk me even on the Web,about 10 to 1 posts.
When I first started this Quest I really didn't know what I was looking for, I guess I wanted to be able to defend myself. But along the way I found what I was searching for .It wasn't for self defense It was far deeper, only when you find it you have to know what to do with it. We all search for something,only you can find it.
Sifu Jim:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron,
Just got back,it was far to short.
You mentioned Sifu Ralph Shun who has passed on to the great Kung Fu temple in the clouds. As a student he was eager to learn G.M.Ark Wong's System. I taught & worked out with him for years,he kept to himself mostly alway's attentive,polite,respectful to every one. I recall being rather hard on him at times but he never complained. I started writing a book for Sifu Wong , his first and after I moved to Orange,Ca. and started a new job my time was cut down as it was some distance from the school .I could only teach on weekends, So I talked to Sifu Ralph Shun about writing the book with me,so we collaborated on the completion of the book. I loaned my only copy to one of my students, who suddenly left the state. I found out where he moved to and after talking to him he told me he gave it back to me!. I was upset about that and should have known not to have loaned it out. I also loaned out several old pictures of G.M.Wong to a freelance writer who did not return all of them. So no longer will I loan out any thing.
I'm off subject as we were talking about Sifu Ralph Shun, When I left The state,it was a mistake that haunts me to this day. Ralph went on to be a great teacher himself, I know a lot of what I taught him was passed on to all of his students. That makes me feel very good and G.M.Ark Y.Wong would have a smile on his face.
Sifu Jim:D

[bakxierboxer]

Just curious, has anyone heard of the duck fist ? :confused:

Thnaks Sifu Ron

No "Thnaks"....

As for the "duck fist".... only in a derogatory sense.

IIRC, our first SiFu never said anything about it.

However, my last SiFu was asked to "look at" a "younger master's" (I've since come up with the term "Half-Master" to "cover" such types) "Crane Form".

As the "performance" "progressed" I could see the thunderclouds gathering on SiFu's brow.... I asked him to "be nice" to the guy.
On being asked his opinion, he shook his head, thought a bit, and judiciiously pronounced that:
"Somebody taught you wrong!"

Flummoxed, the Half-Master finally got SiFu to say that White Crane s/b "long-hand"... with extended arms. Ever-inventive, the fellow decided that "his" crane must be "short-arm" (obviously never in the military).... I covered my face to mask a laff.... and "agreed" with him.... SiFu just looked at me (rather sharply).
Later on, after the fellow had gone, he asked why I agreed with him.... and I told him.... somehow the "joke" "didn't translate" and he launched into HIS version of "short-wing crane".... tucking his hands into his armpits and waddling about quacking like a duck..... it WAS hilarious.

On another note, from his time in the pre-WW2 Chinese Army (never said which one) they'd had to forage for food and he did a fantastic job of actually calling real live ducks..... managing to create a waddling stampede of 'em and he was definitely thinking about wringing a couple of their necks and cooking them.....

[Jim Anestasi]

Thanks Sifu Ron For your comments.
When I first started with G.M.Ark Y. Wong he told me that the most Powerful &Cunning Of All Cats was the Black Jaguar. He told me that the Black Jaguar was the strongest and rarest of all the cats. When ever we talked about the Tiger he would say that the white tiger was his favorite form(set) even the salute was very long,The way it started was buy jumping into the air & coming down in a sitting position as your knee were together and your calves were angled out & away from your body. It is a very dynamic movement,then you would raise up on the side of your feet.
This was my favorite set also,I learned 3 different tiger sets, Then in 1968 which was my last year with him All of my learning was private ,He said to me this is for you and your devotion to me ,I will teach you The Black Jaguar System Of Fighting!!. I was surprised to say the least, It was the hardest of all the sets to learn.The set Was a series of moves rather than one long set. He showed me how every move was used within each set it was very intense With a lot of dynamic tension,It was a Hung Ga style of His system. This was his way of showing me his gratitude for the ten years we spent together. I was honored.:D

[The Xia]

You sure it wasn't black leopard? :confused:

[Jim Anestasi]

I asked that same question to G.M.A.Wong, When he mentioned it the first time. He told me a story about Chinese sailors that sailed the oceans and landed in Central America and South America hundreds of years ago.When they returned to China they told stories about a great cat that roared in the night, many of them were killed.
He told me that his Teacher Master Pang Also knew of these tales,It was further stated that they did trap some of these great cats and brought a few back to China and studied them.
He was quite emphatic about the Black Jaguar.:)
Sifu Jim

[The Xia]

Thanks for the responses. It sounds very interesting. What techniques, strategies, etc does the black jaguar entail?

[Jim Anestasi]

Greetings The Xia,

Thank you for joining in. :)

I just want to add my 2 cents in on this subject.

I had a talk with Sifu ( Ark . Wong) about this. At first he wouldn't fill me in , he gets that way sometimes, especially when it comes to someone so " close to his heart". Actually I had several talks about it, I really didn't care what Style was Jim was learning
( I knew better than to interfere with what those 2 were up too), but, like I told Sifu " were talking about my life here!" :eek:

I felt like I was getting run over by a natural diaster and the only reason I was being " keep alive" , was to be able to go onto another fighting session. :mad:

Sifu never discussed the specifics of the Black Jaguar with me , but he showed me enough to fight against it without being killed. That in return only got Sifu Jim more eager to experiment with it . Thank you Jim, I loved it ! :D

Sifu Ron

Sifu Ron,
I think Sifu Ark Yuey Wong Told you to carry a .45 or run like hell,Ha ha ha.
Sifu Jim

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello The Xia, When you asked the question of Lineage I bet you didn't think we would be on page 14 today?.
The Black Jaguar Fighting System to answer your questions, The moves were designed to occupy your opponent space,rather take him out in the least amount of movement. The moves were very short,fast,powerful. React before he could mount an attack, by doing this you had the advantage,Let me make this clear you only used it after all other options had been tried.Once you knew there wasn't any other recourse,you simply moved in with an overpowering moves. The style was hung ga of G.M.Ark.Wong system. The Dynamic striking power & the targets it attacks is just overwhelming.The powerful leg moves destroyed your opponent balance making him unable to recover. To sum it up It was blind fury nothing was spared after it was unleashed.

Sifu Jim:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys should really contemplate doing something about preserving these "rare" systems.

[Jim Anestasi]

Sanjuro,
You are absolutely right, I have pondered this on many occasions , The problem is to find the right person to pass on my knowledge. He would have to be trained in other martial arts at least 10 years & have a back ground in Chinese & Japanese systems. I have some older students who come to mind, I need to talk to them to see if they would be interested.

Sifu Jim:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,
You are absolutely right, I have pondered this on many occasions , The problem is to find the right person to pass on my knowledge. He would have to be trained in other martial arts at least 10 years & have a back ground in Chinese & Japanese systems. I have some older students who come to mind, I need to talk to them to see if they would be interested.

Sifu Jim:)

I know that is an issue with many and someone said it better than I, "you can't teach skills to the skilless".
Or something like that.
Basically the deserving ones will still be the ones to carry it, no matter what.
One of the reasons I am against keeping things like IP and IV from people is because it keeps it out of the hands of the good ones AND the bad ones, evne though the bad ones wouldn't have the dedication to follow it trough anyways.

Know what I mean?

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron,
Come on now, I'm Just a ***** cat, A rather large ***** cat however.
You were there and I thank you for that.You were the only one I could train with.I couldn't go full power with Sifu so you were his stand in.
If I can find a young man with the dedication that we had and really wanted to train hard no matter what it took I would be very happy. You met Rob, It was where we trained in his converted garage.You saw us working out a few times there. He is the only one at this time that I would consider to learn my ways, he has 10 years with me & several black belts in other M.A. so he has proven he is worthy of this transmission of my total knowledge, He is the best of the best. I'm going to call him & see if he would like to gain my knowledge. He is a very busy man so we will see if we can get together & talk one day soon.:D

Sifu Jim

[htowndragon]

http://www.northernshaolinacademy.com/new/NsaHungGarWongArkYuey.asp

do you guys know anything about this?

[Jim Anestasi]

Htowndragon,
Well I was taught by G.M.Ark Yuey Wong for ten years ,That Almost daily for first the first several years. In all that time he never mentioned Hop Gar!!. So if he taught some one before 1958 or after 1968, I was not aware of it. There are others who maybe answer your question. Their are so many schools claiming linage in some way or another you just shake your head,here's another one.All of the history is well documented and is on the web.:rolleyes:

Sifu Jim

[htowndragon]

is there some special "hand" used in black jaguar?

sounds a bit like what i would expect to see with the "elephant boxing" of lau buns hung sing choy lee fut

[The Xia]

is there some special "hand" used in black jaguar?
I was wondering the same thing.

[The Xia]

Since there is a good amount of Ark Yuey Wong footage that has been posted as of late, I have to ask, is there any video of his Black Jaguar?

[Jim Anestasi]

Xia,
Since I learned it in my last year with G.M.Wong,I really cant answer If he ever taught it to anyone else,Sifu Ron has a little knowledge of it . I believe It was taped on 8mm film. Since I have moved many times these pictures & video's get lost over time . Some day soon I'm going to try and locate them ,I hope they have survived the years in box's in hot garages. Time will tell. Another source of video's of the B/J might be Sifu SeMing his grand son. He has a whole library full of Sifu A.Wongs video's.
Sifu Jim:D

[Indestructible]

Did GM Wong teach Sae Ying Diu Sao (Snake Form Mongoose Hands) as part of his curriculum? I'm curious as I heard this form was taught as part of 5 Family and Fut Gar.

[Jim Anestasi]

Xiong Chuan,
In my list I have only one listed, Dok Shir Leum Lee, Snakes Tongue, That is the only one listed on my notes. Maybe Sifu Ron knows others.:D

[The Xia]

How's about the question htowndragon had about Black Jaguar hand postures?

[The Xia]

Just curious, has anyone heard of the duck fist ? :confused:

Thnaks Sifu Ron
This thread may be of interest to you.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38592

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron, I think he wanted pure snake forms not combination . Maybe I was wrong.

Sifu Jim:)

[Jim Anestasi]

About the hand postures ,Are like any other cat s usage the whole hand(paw) was used so if you know the tiger& leopard you could use the rest of hand (paw) if taught correctly. The main thing is to occupy your opponents space with your horse Stance then follow up with an overwhelming attack to vital targets.

I hope this answers your question.
Sifu Jim:D

[SouthernTiger]

Hello all!

May I interrupt this awesome thread with a quick question to sifu jim and sifu ron?

Is the Black Jaguar a style or system per se, or is it more of a combat theory within a specific context (inside of an oppenents space)?

It sounds to me like it is a theory of combat or principles of fighting with a hella cool name rather than a seperate style with forms and such...

Just curious. Thanks to Xia, Sifu ron, and Sifu Jim for a great thread. This is what forums are supposed to be about! Not the too oft seen internet challenges, superiority complexes and "mma is awesome, cma blows" craptalk. Anyway...

Thanks!!!!

-Blake

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello Southern Tiger,
You are right on,The title B/J Fighting System is just that.
This is a system of combat theory exactly,As you put it, inside the opponents space,
no forms per say, just combat. This system was the first Stealth or Invisible system, not taking a stance until you attack,then your opponent is completely surprised he doesn't no what happened when he comes to ,if not dead.
This concept of fighting with this system is hard to practice with out a partner,a very experienced one ,As he would take a beating as you practice the techniques.
Thanks Sifu Ron, for letting me beat up on you, I tried to take it easy, but this system it is very hard to do, as you know.
I hope this helps .
Sifu Jim:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello Southern Tiger,
You are right on,The title B/J Fighting System is just that.
This is a system of combat theory exactly,As you put it, inside the opponents space,
no forms per say, just combat. This system was the first Stealth or Invisible system, not taking a stance until you attack,then your opponent is completely surprised he doesn't no what happened when he comes to ,if not dead.
This concept of fighting with this system is hard to practice with out a partner,a very experienced one ,As he would take a beating as you practice the techniques.
Thanks Sifu Ron, for letting me beat up on you, I tried to take it easy, but this system it is very hard to do, as you know.
I hope this helps .
Sifu Jim:D

Any resemblence to the "ghost crane" or "ghost hand" I have heard about?

In a nutshell ( very simple explanation) your strikes come from multiple angles on muiltple targets on mulitple levels even though you are "relatively still".
Something along those lines?

[diego]

It would be awesome if youtube had a link to the Black Jaguar fighting theory...:cool:

Great thread you guys...always heard your teachers name, it's nice to put a face to it.

[diego]

this is funny and cute:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RCMcHvbWA

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLd7jwYUis

This is a few moves of Jim and Ron back in 1959 or 1960.

We both thank all of you for your coments . It is good to vist with sincere M/A .

Thank You, Sifu Ron

In all of the images I have seen of your teacher and his students... you guys all have this good fun smile on your faces, looks like yall had a blast training together. Thank you so much for posting this classical footage:)

[diego]

Your welcome.

send me your e-mail address I would like to get to know you better.

WAHQUE@YAHOO.COM

Thanks Sifu Ron

Cool

hopgarjt@yahoo.com

James Traynor is my full name:)
Cheers

[SouthernTiger]

Hello Southern Tiger,
You are right on,The title B/J Fighting System is just that.
This is a system of combat theory exactly,As you put it, inside the opponents space,
no forms per say, just combat. This system was the first Stealth or Invisible system, not taking a stance until you attack,then your opponent is completely surprised he doesn't no what happened when he comes to ,if not dead.
This concept of fighting with this system is hard to practice with out a partner,a very experienced one ,As he would take a beating as you practice the techniques.
Thanks Sifu Ron, for letting me beat up on you, I tried to take it easy, but this system it is very hard to do, as you know.
I hope this helps .
Sifu Jim:D

Thank you sifu Jim for the clarification. Black Jaguar sounds fascinating!

Y'know one thing I love about watching some of the oldtime misc. gung fu clips of Ark Wong and students : the stances. Always good stong stances. You can tell in 3 seconds that these guys worked HARD on foundations and basics and therefore had excellent gungfu!

Thanks for keeping traditional gung fu alive and well in our age.

-Blake

[The Xia]

So how is Black Jaguar trained? Since there isn't a set, there can't be a two-man version of a non-existing set. Therefore, you isolate techniques, drill them with a partner. Then combos and finally freeform. Which happens when you have a set anyway. That sound right?

[Jim Anestasi]

THe Xia,
Let me see if this helps you understand The system with how I was trained in it ,remember this was after 9 years of training.When Sifu Announced to me that he was going to teach me this system,I was in a state of shock,as we had talked about it in my first year with him, but nothing about it until then. The scenarios he made up were practical attacks that most of us see in real life. He showed how to use paws of the B/J which is more complex than the tiger or leopard but still along the same lines.The foot work was not that different from what i had been using all along,only different ways to use it and take your opponent down.This was followed up with using the cats paws at the same time and all the way down to the ground ,many times pouncing on your attacker(would be)with over powering blows.Many times he would be disabled before hitting the ground.The Xia You hit the nail on,the head, there are no sets or prearranged moves on your either side.just techniques that are practiced,Sifu Wong would say this is what you could have done this or that also.In traing like this you don't know whats coming or what you will do, you just react using the techniques of the B/J. It is on the premise that you are not going to be able to stop the fight so you attack so suddenly that the bad guy or guys never see it coming .Hence the invisible attack.
Sifu Jim:cool:

[The Xia]

Thanks for the descriptions, it sounds like a great system. SIFU RON, did you ever learn it? And on the subject of the black jaguar's paws, since they are along the same lines of the tiger and leopard, does this mean that the black jaguar utilizes the tiger claw and leapard fist, but in different ways then the tiger and leopard do?

[Jim Anestasi]

The Xia,
To answer your questions the weapons used by the B/J were the leopard chuan, fu jow, if you look at your own hand held in leopard chuan, there are 5 areas to strike with also the tiger claw is used to grab,claw,poke etc. these are your primary striking weapons. the elbow is used also the shoulder & forearm can be used,you are not limited as using only these. The legs come into play to your knees your feet ,chins ,heels,bottom of your feet ,toes etc. Once you decide to attack your legs are what destroys his position or stance depending on which way he is standing. With the help of what ever blow you decided to use to occupy his his position. In this scenario your opponent is standing with his right leg forward (by this time you would have him sized up) so you stomp on his right foot this will make him go backwards,as he can't move he will , be off balance as your weight is on his foot you move in with you right leg between his this will destroy his balance as you attack his vital areas with any weapon that will do the job, You could just stun him or knock him out or what ever is called for., as he is now on the ground you can pounce on him ,stomp
him. I think this would give you an Idea what would happen.
To answer your Question If Sifu Ron learned it, He was my stand in as an opponent
in the drills ,so of course he picked up on what was going on . He was more interested in surviving than any thing that floor was hard & when a 220 lbs. of fury coming at you . Thanks To Ron for being there.
Sifu Jim;)

[SIFU RON]

The Xia,
To answer your questions the weapons used by the B/J were the leopard chuan, fu jow, if you look at your own hand held in leopard chuan, there are 5 areas to strike with also the tiger claw is used to grab,claw,poke etc. these are your primary striking weapons. the elbow is used also the shoulder & forearm can be used,you are not limited as using only these. The legs come into play to your knees your feet ,chins ,heels,bottom of your feet ,toes etc. Once you decide to attack your legs are what destroys his position or stance depending on which way he is standing. With the help of what ever blow you decided to use to occupy his his position. In this scenario your opponent is standing with his right leg forward (by this time you would have him sized up) so you stomp on his right foot this will make him go backwards,as he can't move he will , be off balance as your weight is on his foot you move in with you right leg between his this will destroy his balance as you attack his vital areas with any weapon that will do the job, You could just stun him or knock him out or what ever is called for., as he is now on the ground you can pounce on him ,stomp
him. I think this would give you an Idea what would happen.
To answer your Question If Sifu Ron learned it, He was my stand in as an opponent
in the drills ,so of course he picked up on what was going on . He was more interested in surviving than any thing that floor was hard & when a 220 lbs. of fury coming at you . Thanks To Ron for being there.
Sifu Jim;)

Works both ways, and your welcome.

Sifu Ron

[The Xia]

Thanks for the description. It sounds like a great system. One thing I was wondering about was your sifu’s teachers.
http://www.southern5.com/WongSifu.html
It says that he learned Choy Lee Fut from Lam Ark Fun, Mok Gar from Ho Ark Yeng, but does not specify where he learned Hung Gar. Was it from the monk Peng?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I just read his bio; am I correct in the assumption that Master Wong's training had ended when he migrated to the U.S.? Did he train with anyone here, who lived in the states?? Just curious...

[cjurakpt]

this is funny and cute:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RCMcHvbWA

OMG - is that Dennis Farina?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

And he came here when he was 21 years of age? Is that correct??

[Jim Anestasi]

Thats correct,he was 21 when he arrived in this country and was all ready a master.We talked about his teachers a lot when I first started training with him.The only other masters he mentioned in this country were Professor Ben Lau in San Francisco & Si Mah (Sig Mar) who taught in Sacramento,Ca. These only taught Chinese.On a trip to San Francisco with him he took me with him to visit Old man Lau as he fondly called him.They were surprised when I came in with him to meet Professor Lau being a non Chinese student .Sifu Wong seemed proud of me as I was the topic for more than an hour or so they arranged a demo for me to do ,Sifu Wong said Jim do the Tiger Descends Mountain, I performed it for them and they all said very good,strong horse stance.
Sifu Ark Wong grinned as we left the school down stairs.:D

Sifu Jim

[Jim Anestasi]

The schools location was in China Town on the main street If I recall correctly. Down stairs ,It was very small as I remember.
Actually I made 3 trip to the bay area with G.M.Ark Y.Wong I drove him each time. Also my wife came with us. We enjoyed these trips as each one was different.

Sifu Jim:cool:

[The Xia]

Thanks. I look forward to the website.

[diego]

I cannot get through to your e-maill address,,,,,,try mine,,,,,,,

thanks Ron
Sorry for the delay Ron, I just sent you an email:)

[The Xia]

They may be easier to pull off in some situations for people whose other hand postures are not yet developed, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be used by people who have the hands for those other things. Every martial artist will have his/her preferences and different situations call for different things. Most arts (aside from exceptions where the style is pure grappling or something like that) have closed fist techniques.
- My two cents.

[The Xia]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0938934/
On imdb.com, the only movie he is credited with is Vice Squad. Is there anything else he can be seen in?

[The Xia]

By the way, I enjoyed that Vice Squad clip. Good to see he had a sense of humor. :D

[Jim Anestasi]

The Xia,
Grand Master was in The Original Movie of Kung Fu ,starring David Carradine ,In the early 70's I think . He played a Monk in it at the Siu Lum Monastery.:D

Sifu Jim

[SIFU RON]

They may be easier to pull off in some situations for people whose other hand postures are not yet developed, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be used by people who have the hands for those other things. Every martial artist will have his/her preferences and different situations call for different things. Most arts (aside from exceptions where the style is pure grappling or something like that) have closed fist techniques.
- My two cents.


your 2 cents is worth hundreds of dollars.

Good point of view. ;)

Sifu Ron

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Xia,
Grand Master was in The Original Movie of Kung Fu ,starring David Carradine ,In the early 70's I think . He played a Monk in it at the Siu Lum Monastery.:D

Sifu Jim

I believe he "demoed" the dragon form...

[Jim Anestasi]

San-juro,
I think you are right about the Dragon Form,he also was throwing stars at wooden dummies.Ralph Shun was in it also,and lots of other people .Sifu Ark Wong called me and wanted me come down and get in the movie with him,How ever I was living out of state at the time and just started a new job and was not able to go.He told me I would make $100.00 a day!,that was big money back then. I kind of regret not going but It was a small company and if I left it would have been rough on them.

Sifu Jim:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

San-juro,
I think you are right about the Dragon Form,he also was throwing stars at wooden dummies.Ralph Shun was in it also,and lots of other people .Sifu Ark Wong called me and wanted me come down and get in the movie with him,How ever I was living out of state at the time and just started a new job and was not able to go.He told me I would make $100.00 a day!,that was big money back then. I kind of regret not going but It was a small company and if I left it would have been rough on them.

Sifu Jim:)

Kam Yuen was there too if I recall.
Too bad that show had David Carradine.

[bakxierboxer]

Kam Yuen was there too if I recall.
Too bad that show had David Carradine.

... and John Leoning.
(although I thought that Kam was in some of the later shows)

[The Xia]

I remember reading how your sifu was involved with the TV Series. It's great to hear that he demoed some of his material. Gives me reason to try to find the clip. What is the dragon form like? Does Ng Ga have a form for each animal?

[bakxierboxer]

hELLO Bakxierboxer,

I notice you mention John Leoning often and you speak with pride.
Do you know John ? I remember when he first started, John was a very good Martial Artists.

Pride? there is some of that, yes.
Reverence is a bit more like it.

John was my first SiFu.
Most of what I learned from him was Kajukenbo,
but he did "introduce" me to Kung Fu and greatly
influenced my eventual complete transition to TCMA.

I was also uchi deshi, actually living in the kwoon
with a few other like-minded fellows and all we did
was MA, 24/7.
(although there was "a certain amount" of
"Islander influence" added to "what you might expect")


By the way, speaking of Ralph Shun, does anyone
know his senior student Rick Zanotti ?

Yes.
I corresponded with him at some length and also met him a few times.
He talks too much.

Pete

[Jim Anestasi]

Hi Bakxierboxer,
Nice to see you back,I thought talking about John would bring you out.Anyway it nice to talk with you again.G.M.Ark Wong was a real showman,all you had to have was a camera,he really enjoyed performing in front of a crowd. I have been looking in boxes of old stuff hoping to find a picture of John,I know I have one,but so far it hasn't showed up. I will let you know if I find it.
Sifu Jim:D

[bakxierboxer]

Hi Bakxierboxer,
Nice to see you back,I thought talking about John would bring you out.
Anyway it nice to talk with you again.

?????
Who WAS I "talking with"?
Is there some kinda Wah Que Borg-Collective out there?


G.M.Ark Wong was a real showman,all you had to have was a camera,he really enjoyed performing in front of a crowd.

It was always easier to communicate that way than talking.
Only 2 of my teachers ever had much in the way of English, and even they "did better" demoing.


I have been looking in boxes of old stuff hoping to find a picture of John,I know I have one,but so far it hasn't showed up. I will let you know if I find it.


Thanks, whatever you can do is much appreciated.


Sifu Jim:D

So, now you're Mr. Smiley?

Pete

[Jim Anestasi]

The Xia,
As to your question about the Dragon Form, I was taught a long hand,wide stance style,of G.M.Wong 's Hung Ga style. It was a dynamic set and very long.It was called Dragon plays with pearls.:D

[Jim Anestasi]

Bakxierboxer,:confused:Haven't I always been ??.

Jim

[bakxierboxer]

Bakxierboxer,:confused:Haven't I always been ??.

Jim

See that!?
Now there's no Smiley at all!

Originally you were "Sifu Jim Anestasi :)"

Then it was "Sifu Jim :D"

Now?????
(maybe there IS a Wah Que Borg-Collective?)

(you DO know that I'm just kiddin' around?)

Pete

[Jim Anestasi]

Bakxierboxer,
That's right you do have a sense of humor! I forgot it's been so long since we have chatted.
Sifu Jim Anestasi:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

Thanks ,Pete for the response. I appreciate it.

Sure, although I've previously posted that stuff....


Here's one for you :D

One what?

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

Bakxierboxer,
That's right you do have a sense of humor! I forgot it's been so long since we have chatted.

Of one type or another.....
Not that long....


Sifu Jim Anestasi:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

Hmmm.... the eye- rolling thingie is different here.....

Pete

[The Xia]

If anyone has a clip of the Dragon Plays with Pearls set being performed on the Kung Fu TV series, please feel free to post the link. :) :D
For Sifu Ron and Jim, what is the dragon palm?

[Steeeve]

Hey Guys

Ron and Jim long time we dont see us:)


Hahahaha the dragon play with pearls :eek:.....maybe I could show you the dragon play with his balls(pearls) ...XXX movie for adult only:D

Take care

Steeve

[Steeeve]

Ron and Jim

Its just a joke.....dont take it bad or personnal...no insult just a joke....

Srteeve

Ps Im not a representative of Sifu Seming Ma

[Jim Anestasi]

This is to notify That Steeve & Ng Ga Kuen Remove all & any Photos,Video's Text & anything connected to me in any way, In there possession indefinitely.
The recent comments is just a continuation of the type of Disrespectful talk about the elders of Ark Yuey Wong Style & students that came before them.

Sifu Jim Anestasi

[SIFU RON]

The same goes for me.

Na Ga Kuen, Seming Ma, Steeve, and your group you no longer have my permission to use any photos, video, articles , text, or anything of me, Ron Shewmaker ,in any manner ever.

Ron Shewmaker

[Jim Anestasi]

Sifu Ron ,
I guess I missed the article, Is it out now? If so I will see if I can find it.Looks interesting.There is so much Kung Fu out there it will make your head swim.It would take several life times to learn just a little.Such is the way of things these days.

Sifu Jim;)

[SouthernTiger]

I am surprised that this forum would allow this to be posted !

Gene Ching and Gigi Oh. I do not believe would condone this type of insulting,
disrespectful remarks, on their forum, or in their Magazine.

Steeve is one Na Ga Kuen's ( Seming Ma's) representatives.


Shameful.

This demonstartes an example, of some of the events , Ark Wong's students have had to try and tollerate .

These people have been banned on our forum.

I speak for myself and Jim Anestasi.

Ron Shewmaker

Sifu Ron,

Are you serious? I think Steeeve was joking...although I agree it was somewhat distasteful. He even apologized. So whats the big deal?

Do you and Sifu Jim have some issues with Ng Ga Kuen and Seming Ma? Or am I incorrectly reading into your above posts?

BTW, I recently acquired a copy of Wong Ark Yuey's book "Secret of Kung Fu" GREAT STUFF!!! I see you guys in a bunch of the pics too! It was amazing the things that Sifu Wong was revealing in print and over 40 years ago!

Good things...

-Blake

[Jim Anestasi]

Southern Tiger, I won't respond to your Question about Steeve,He has been in the center of long going war. So I will Let Sifu Ron answer your question.
Back to the book is it the first book or the second?.I wrote most of the first one,I let Ralph Shun finish it as I didn't have the time to devote to it.Actually both books were similar. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Sifu Ark Wong wanted to let the masses know about his Kung Fu.
Sifu Jim;)

[SouthernTiger]

It is best to leave these personal issues off this forum.

Jim and I came here to enjoy sharing with all of you. there are some issues and matters best left alone and this is one of those.

In the books, we were young and hungry, we couldn't get enough. Currently we are going through our " old stuff" and might share some photo's and video up the road a ways.

Best to U ;)

Sifu Ron

Sifu Ron and Sifu Jim,

Fair enough on the personal issues. It has been great having you two at kung fu forum to share your experiences!

Two things I would like to ask: One, I noticed on the back of the book that there is an ad for learning kung fu at home from 16mm and 8 mm tape. Out of curiosity, do you know what the material was? I have the yamazato productions dvd on Wong Ark Yuey, is this the only footage of Sifu?

Second, do either of you remember a John Allen in Sifu Wong's class? I believe he would have been there in the late 60's. He is the man that would later open in infamous Green Dragon Studios in Akron, Ohio.

Thanks guys, I Love hearing about the golden age of gungfu from people who experienced it.

-Blake

[Jim Anestasi]

Southern Tiger,
That name doesn't sound familiar, like Sifu Ron said there were people coming and going.I left at the end of 1968.We have most of what we learned on tapes and such.Sifu A.Wong sold films from the start around 1964 or so.
What copy do you have the first or the second??. If you would like you could send it to me & I will autograph it for you!. Just send potage to return it. Send me a P.M. and I will send you my email and address so you can send it. Your choice.
Sifu Jim:D

[The Xia]

In your notes, is there a list of sets for the Ng Ga style?

[Laukarbo]

Sifu Ron and Sifu Jim in action 1959 !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLd7jwYUis

[The Xia]

Sure,

are your refering to names of Forms , name of Styles, or both ? ;)
Forms, but if you also have styles, feel free to share. :)

[SouthernTiger]

Sure,

are your refering to names of Forms , name of Styles, or both ? ;)

Hello Sifu Ron,

I would be very interested in hearing a couple of the forms that Sifu Wong passed on to you from Mok Gar (Mot Ga??).

This style fascinates me however there is precious little info out there on this style...

Thanks!

-Blake

[kangmuk]

spelling is how they call Phonetic.. Mok style in 5 family is kicking style.

[NGKSMM]

Here is more info about Ark Wong’s Mok Ga. He learned this system from one of his 12 Sifus in China named Ho Yeng whom I started my kung fu in China with. According to both of them, it was originated from Mok Ga of the Southern 5 family (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee, Mok). No doubt about that there are differences between Ark Wong and other existing Mok Ga systems.

The characteristics of my grandfather’s Mok Ga system is that it uses smaller stance and short range hand movements in comparison with Ng Ga Kuen, its punch is called “chicken heart punch” also known as “dragon’s horn punch”; the punch is mainly use for vital spot hitting. This type of fist striking also exists in NGK’s “black dragon form”.

This video clip should shed some lights for those have been wondering what Ark Wong’s Mok Ga looks? :)

http://www.kungfu5family.com/GMWongMokGa.wmv

Seming Ma
P.S. Ark Wong's kung fu system has been NG Ga Kuen (Five Family Style) at all time.

[NGKSMM]

spelling is how they call Phonetic.. Mok style in 5 family is kicking style.

Kangmuk,
You are right, Na Ga Kuen ( 5 Family) only adapted the kickings to the ststem.

Seming Ma

[NGKSMM]

The same goes for me.

Na Ga Kuen, Seming Ma, Steeve, you no longer have my permission to use any photos, video, articles , text, or anything of me, Ron Shewmaker ,in any manner ever.

Steeve, for the benefit of this forum, and to show respect, I suggest you post elsewhere.

I don't want anything to do with you.

Ron Shewmaker

Ron, Jim,
Don't worry, I have no use of you photos, videos, or any docts. :D:D I already possessed videos, photos, docts..........from my grandfather.

BTW, no body speaks for me for your information. :mad:

Seming Ma
Ng Ga Kuen

[Jim Anestasi]

G.M.Ark Y.Wong Mok Ga video was well done,I remember learning that form however there is an other which has short kicks along with the Chicken Heart Punches,Seming do you have a copy of that one?. I would like to see it. Thanks for sharing.
Sifu Jim:)

[kangmuk]

My sifu learned his Mok style from a Monk named Pang at Shaolin in Fukien area. The form that we do has short kicking and some rolling and use the chicken heart and immortal man after the rolling. I don't think is too good to show on tape brcause you need the right person to show or you can hurt someone and not fix them. Master Ark Yuey Wong is well known in our area. His many friends miss him.

[Cambrais]

[QUOTE=SIFU RON;819390]Well Seming Ma,

Wherever you go, problems, arguments, non-respect, Ego's and much, much more tag along right with you. This is not your forum or mine.
People on this site don't care to read abour personal issues.
if you have a" bone to pick " with me or Jim, e-mail us , phone us , or see us face to face.
Ron

Talking about EGOS... Ron and Jim have been stroking one another for a while on various forums. Why don't you guys e-mail one another for your private conversations and please, DO open your own website so you can spend more time there!
Respectfully to everybody else.

[iron_silk]

[QUOTE=SIFU RON;819390]Well Seming Ma,

Wherever you go, problems, arguments, non-respect, Ego's and much, much more tag along right with you. This is not your forum or mine.
People on this site don't care to read abour personal issues.
if you have a" bone to pick " with me or Jim, e-mail us , phone us , or see us face to face.
Ron

Talking about EGOS... Ron and Jim have been stroking one another for a while on various forums. Why don't you guys e-mail one another for your private conversations and please, DO open your own website so you can spend more time there!
Respectfully to everybody else.

Cool... I thought the very same thing...but never said anything b/c I had nothing to do with these people.

But since I am a busy body already...

I mean going around posting and refering to yourselves as..... Sifu Jim.......Sifu Ron

Sifu usually a title of respect that other people call you by...saying it yourself seems a slight lack of humble-ness...NOT that you didn' t earn it in skill or training it just seems....i don't know....would tacky be the right word? (or spelling)

We don't know the issues between you guys but it would seem like ONLY Sifu Jim and Sifu Ron brought it into this forum

if you guys truly wanted it private than deal with it in private...personally it looks like you were waiting for an excuse to get angry with them and now using the forum to gather support.

again....sorry for butting in...this is really none of my business

[Cambrais]

I don't know Seming Ma but have got to know more about you, through your words , Ron!

[lostdragon]

This is to notify That Steeve & Ng Ga Kuen Remove all & any Photos,Video's Text & anything connected to me in any way, In there possession indefinitely.
The recent comments is just a continuation of the type of Disrespectful talk about the elders of Ark Yuey Wong Style & students that came before them.

Sifu Jim Anestasi


G.M.Ark Y.Wong Mok Ga video was well done,I remember learning that form however there is an other which has short kicks along with the Chicken Heart Punches,Seming do you have a copy of that one?. I would like to see it. Thanks for sharing.
Sifu Jim:)

You know, I just had to say something about this. Not that I'm a moderator, nor anyone of particular status on this forum. I'm not associated with SMM or anyone from the 5 fam system...

But... I find it funny that you'd tell them in one breath that you don't want them using any of your video/docs, etc. and then ask for video re: a topic you're interested in.

Moreover, unless you are speaking of personally owned and licensed materials, I doubt there is any legally binding weight to your request to not use 'your materials', esp. if said materials were shot in a public domain (i.e. a tournament), in a place that wasn't yours (i.e. were made for the studio you were teaching in vs. your own studio) or were shot by someone else for their own collection (i.e., not produced by you). Couple this together with your consent (i.e. if you knew you were being filmed), and you don't really have a strong claim that your materials are protected by anything.

Additionally, there is an issue of fair use, esp. for education, which most of this is. Ppl can reproduce a limited amount of text, but not whole documents. Too, IIRC, they can talk about your ideas, and even paraphrase what you are saying, but not duplicate the exact manner in which you are saying things.

There is also a difference between materials that you performed and materials that you 'produce'. The latter, I believe, is protected in certain circumstances, but not necessarily the former. Too, if you created something for someone else, and they hold the rights to it, it isn't yours, even though you created it. Thus, you claim to not use 'your material' wouldn't be valid there either unless you continue to hold the rights to it and simply license it out.

I only bring this up because I get tired of this particular type of fight, and when private conflicts becoming public and ppl throwing their weight around in forums like this, with verbal threats of not using their materials. Its sad when relationships go sour, ppl don't get along anymore and conflicts like this stunt sharing process.

Just my $0.02.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the many reasons I am against 'inner circle" students and such.
Drama begets drama.

[Jim Anestasi]

Just checked in and see the start of a fire storm, I missed out on the first one.
Any way I think everyone should take a few steps back,take a few deep breaths and calm down.
Ron & I have known each other for many years and have studied together before G.M Ark Y. Wong, We were in our late teens when we found martial arts and have been involved it in one way or another since. I don't know Seming at all,in 1968 was my last year with G.M Ark Y. Wong after starting in 1958. Some people like to hear stories from our past with G.M.Wong some don't care,other are envious or jealous,or what have you.The fact is I was his first non Chinese student,I got Ron involved a year later.The "inner circle" persons are trying to to start another war of words again as this is what happened in the past.About me asking Seming If he had The other Video Of G.M.Ark Wong doing Mok Ga with the kicking,I was curious Because that video was made for sale.We have our own video's of what we were taught. Most of those old films have survived to this day.As far as I'm concerned this matter is closed once and for all. It is not worth the effort of writing about this on a public forum
IMHO.
Sifu Jim Anestasi

[JohnCole]

Wow Sifu Ron is amazing. Seming simpliy confirms a request from one of Sifu RON's earlier posts and Sifu RON starts gets bent.

[kangmuk]

I read these postings with a bit of sadness and disgust. 5 family style is a style meant to bring people together. I live in a different part of the world but share thoughts with others. I don't know why my name is used with conflict with others. Ron have a big problem with respect from others. Ron say he a sifu. Where, and with any student? The student I would think have a certain veiw of him. Ma Seming is GM Ark Yuey Wong grandson, with the right to pass on the style with those that were picked by his grandfather. I am not familiar with what is being said but I look at the years you talk about and they don't seem right. Sifu Jim and Sifu Ron you are both teachers of the 5 family style ..? Then you are both in your late 70's . I think. How can this be . And to have your attitude of disrespect for these others. They follow you from forum to forum.. Why ? This is supposed to be a forum to pass on information and have camaraderie.. I think you missed the point of it. I see nothing worthwhile pass from your lips. You have only, what seems to me to be misinformation. you have given wrong names to things and make me not beleive you are at the level you are asking to be looked at. again, why do you use my name ? If I have anything to pass just ask. I will tell you my teachers, my students, my history. I have nothing to hide and have many friends who would tell you the same thing. I think I have knowledge that others would find useful to help their training. I am familiar with your style. Only little change and that is expected. I like to use the English to explain things. I use Mandarin and make everybody confuse.. Not my plan. sifus Ron & Jim, I don't see you explain anything about your style, only want to take to use for you. I hope you answer this.. I really want to know why you use my name ...

[Steeeve]

Kangmuk

You said you are a mok gar player....strong kick for closed the range and closed hands or fist at closed range.....(like the chicken heart fist )

You seem to know the ng ga of GM Wong style ....almost all the kicking of Ng ga came from mok gar....mostly the snap kick ...the way we call it ....its a kind of front kick but with the feet pointing at 9 oclock (little bit like a fast side kick)

Here some mok gar

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/images/PAGODAMG.wmv

Steeve

[kangmuk]

Ron, you certainly have a chip on your shoulder. My first reply to forum was simply that the Mok style is a strong kicking style. I am familiar with GM Wong Ark Yuey through his associations in China ( Mainland. ) and connections in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is once again under Communist rule, though relaxed somewhat. People have to be careful of what they say and who they offend. I can see by your writtings that you have never traveled and dealt with different cultures or you would not be so quick to take offense to absolutely nothing !

I don't know your history but I find your lack of personality and personal armour intriguing. You seem to offend many. I have read back on the forum and see that you have offered nothing as to your stle of learning or more important your form of teaching. Is expected of you as you call yourself Sifu.

5 family, 5 animal style is an important style which is taught throughout Mainland and is big here in HK also. Ling Chow Chi is a good example of the style here. Mostly tiger, crane but he teach the mok and fat style also. Choi Lee Fat is probably # 1 here. I myself started in judo as a youth and progressed to Bagua' hsinghi later. Are you familiar with those teachings. ? You appear to be elderly and small minded. I don't see you posting information on your learning only comment on your personal affronts. I myself am familiar with 5 family 5 animal style and I prefer to do tiger style. I have a friend Pow Ho Ching, you would know him in the States as Samo Hong . He is a good example of 5 family 5 animal along with hsing hi and bagua and choi lee fat. Ron, do you have other teachers along with GM Wong Ark Yuey ? or is this all that you have ever studied ?

Steeve, I hope this answers some your question also. As for Mok style, we use the side and forward rolling along with snake hand and chicken heart. The video was good but for me the horse too high and the hand too fast.
We call the fast hand the Flower hand. Fast but not too strong. Used to impress a beginner.

[Steeeve]

HAhAhA Kangmuk

You talk about pakua and hsing I ....but im sure you dont know what you talk about .....?????

But ur right about he fast hands ....no power here.....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Ron, you certainly have a chip on your shoulder. My first reply to forum was simply that the Mok style is a strong kicking style. I am familiar with GM Wong Ark Yuey through his associations in China ( Mainland. ) and connections in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is once again under Communist rule, though relaxed somewhat. People have to be careful of what they say and who they offend. I can see by your writtings that you have never traveled and dealt with different cultures or you would not be so quick to take offense to absolutely nothing !

I don't know your history but I find your lack of personality and personal armour intriguing. You seem to offend many. I have read back on the forum and see that you have offered nothing as to your stle of learning or more important your form of teaching. Is expected of you as you call yourself Sifu.

5 family, 5 animal style is an important style which is taught throughout Mainland and is big here in HK also. Ling Chow Chi is a good example of the style here. Mostly tiger, crane but he teach the mok and fat style also. Choi Lee Fat is probably # 1 here. I myself started in judo as a youth and progressed to Bagua' hsinghi later. Are you familiar with those teachings. ? You appear to be elderly and small minded. I don't see you posting information on your learning only comment on your personal affronts. I myself am familiar with 5 family 5 animal style and I prefer to do tiger style. I have a friend Pow Ho Ching, you would know him in the States as Samo Hong . He is a good example of 5 family 5 animal along with hsing hi and bagua and choi lee fat. Ron, do you have other teachers along with GM Wong Ark Yuey ? or is this all that you have ever studied ?

Steeve, I hope this answers some your question also. As for Mok style, we use the side and forward rolling along with snake hand and chicken heart. The video was good but for me the horse too high and the hand too fast.
We call the fast hand the Flower hand. Fast but not too strong. Used to impress a beginner.

Just curious, have you said that you are Chinese? If so, could you tell me where from and what language you speak?

I find your posts very interesting.

Thank you.

[Cambrais]

If you will allow a few minutes of exposure to another language and other community, here is a link to something we have in common:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2_BlCdiIY

Just replace "Deaf community" with "Martial Arts community" and you will perhaps understand that it is more of a "Human bad quality" that different communities share.

Someone mentioned "Inner circle" and I don't buy into that. I don't know most of the people in this forum. Still, some of us have formed an opinion and spoken up. There might be some truth to our words, don't you think?
Listen to the limitations the presenter lists and hopefully apply it in your dialogue and postings on this forum.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The reason I used your name, is, simply, it is because of your timing . It appears as though You enter as a new person on this form, (along with a few others) , and jolt right into this person issue.

Don't add fuel to the flame.

If you want to know something about this style and our side of it, ask .

Regards, Sifu Ron

What IS his name?

[Jim Anestasi]

Hello Kangmuk,

I said that I wouldn't write about these things again but I have a few questions for you.
What makes you think that we are in our late seventy's?.I take it that you are in Hong Kong, China is that correct?.It seems to me that perhaps some one else has written for you on your last post is this correct?,I really don't have a problem with that but just curious?.And for the record I have never shown any disrespect to any one on this forum, no matter what has been asked of me. I have tried to answer all of the question's
as truthfully as I can. You said that we were giving out misinformation I'm not sure what you mean by that?,All of the names that we used were given to us by G.M.Ark Y. Wong,This seems to rear it's ugly head from time to time. All I can say is that is what I was told to call them by G.M.Ark Y. Wong. Have you read this Thread from the start?, If not ,please do so.
As for my self I have retired from teaching,but I would train a new student again if I could find one that has the right stuff & the time to devote to the training. I have one of my old students in mind but have not talked to him about it but I will after the first of the year.
I have shared my knowledge when ever possible,so I don't what you mean that I haven't shared it.

Sifu Jim

[Steeeve]

Kangmuk


I said

You talk about pakua and hsing I ....but im sure you dont know what you talk about .....?????

Thats not what I mean ......Error here miswriting ...sorry

Im sure you do know what you talk about ??? thats the good one

Steeve


Steeve

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Thanks for the kind words.

My teacher taught the Mok Ga style as well. I learned two forms from him and one from my classmate. My two classmates learned approx. 20 forms, of what I believe was the complete style. I have a list of them as well, let me know if you want me to post it.

Michael