The triangle of power

[Flying-Monkey]

If someone came into my school (man or woman) scared and/or with visible past injures and wanted to learn how to defend his/herself, I would tell them to learn three things: BJJ, western boxing and a kicking art (probably Thai boxing). The good thing is that many schools teach two or all of these martial arts in the same place. I call these arts the triangle of power.

You might be wondering why i didn't say kuing fu. One reason is kung fu takes a long time to learn. Most styles just don't work. Most styles are incomplete. The styles that are half-way decent have teachers who won't teach or who can't teacher.

Yes. I am a TCMAist, but I am not going to lie. A person who trains in just one of the three for one year can easily handle a a kung fu guy who has been training for five or more.

So what should be done? Kung fu needs a complete overhaul if it doesn't want to become wushu.

PS

I know this topic has been posted before, but I feel it is important and it should be brought up again.

[Merryprankster]

That's an interesting list.

I'd substitute Judo or western wrestling for BJJ, and I think lkfmdc would argue that the styles taking a long time to learn to be reasonably effective is a product of ****-poor training methods, not an inherent flaw.

[Flying-Monkey]

That's an interesting list.

I'd substitute Judo or western wrestling for BJJ, and I think lkfmdc would argue that the styles taking a long time to learn to be reasonably effective is a product of ****-poor training methods, not an inherent flaw.

A lot of the trad. teaching methods and TCMA hoops to jump through cause it to take a long time. Plus, the number of techniques to learn is overwhelming.

[IronWeasel]

A person who trains in just one of the three for one year can easily handle a a kung fu guy who has been training for five or more.




Sounds like one of those 'Batman can beat Flash Gordon' arguments.

[Merryprankster]

Plus, the number of techniques to learn is overwhelming.


Bad argument. This is a problem of classification. Almost all techniques can be lumped together under a common principle/principles.

This makes them infinitely easier to learn because you have analogies to pick from. The real problem is that people often teach "techniques" in isolation, and they are presented as "different" material.

While the variety of sweep "techniques" in BJJ is mind-boggling, for instance, there are only two, possibly three principles involved. Once you understand that, there are only actually two or three sweeps. Every sweep is a variation on a theme.

If I taught those sweeps in isolation without emphasizing the concepts, they would take forever to learn. By presenting them as part of an overarching theme, it becomes far less overwhelming.

[Golden Arms]

That was gold MP. Wish more people would stick that in their heads.

[Flying-Monkey]

Bad argument. This is a problem of classification. Almost all techniques can be lumped together under a common principle/principles.

This makes them infinitely easier to learn because you have analogies to pick from. The real problem is that people often teach "techniques" in isolation, and they are presented as "different" material.

While the variety of sweep "techniques" in BJJ is mind-boggling, for instance, there are only two, possibly three principles involved. Once you understand that, there are only actually two or three sweeps. Every sweep is a variation on a theme.

If I taught those sweeps in isolation without emphasizing the concepts, they would take forever to learn. By presenting them as part of an overarching theme, it becomes far less overwhelming.

That is a part of the the overhaul i am talking about.

Some teachers going through the problem of "How and what I want to teach and how my teach wants me to teach."

[TenTigers]

I think you have something there. One of our senior students teaches Thai kicking techniques, and we have another who has been training in BJJ, and this has crept into our curriculum as well. Nothing major,throws, takedowns, ground n pound, and a few submissions, and escapes. I also like the grappling from Silat-very viscious. I find that gwa,cup,sow,and lien wan choy are pretty darned effective.
I like that-"Triangle of Power." combine that with the Circle of Trust, and you have something really special.

[Flying-Monkey]

I think you have something there. One of our senior students teaches Thai kicking techniques, and we have another who has been training in BJJ, and this has crept into our curriculum as well. Nothing major,throws, takedowns, ground n pound, and a few submissions, and escapes. I also like the grappling from Silat-very viscious. I find that gwa,cup,sow,and lien wan choy are pretty darned effective.
I like that-"Triangle of Power." combine that with the Circle of Trust, and you have something really special.

Don't get me wrong. I don't there should be mixing. I think that TCMA should be taught differently.

[cjurakpt]

I think that the point about principle-based training makes sense - the trick is not to see the differrences, but to understand the interlationships and patterns so that variations on a theme are just that, as opposed to a completely seperate "technique"

for example, when teaching stick fighting, there are a small number basic concepts that if you work with correctly, you don't need all the fancy mumbo out there; and these are things that you can easily communicate to a beginner as well, and make work in a pretty short period of time, because you are not forcing them into a stylistic straight jacket that keeps them from responding spontaneously - which means that they WONT become carbon copies of the teacher and which means that the teacher can't just go through material without regard for the individual student - they actually have to stay present and think about what they are doing - OMG

the problem is if you teach this way, you also "loose" a lot of curriculum material, so it seems like you have less to teach: so it becomes more an issue of how you as the teacher embody the principles, not just regurgitate what you were force fed by your own teachers...

as fot the Triangle - if you take it down a step further, you are basically teaching 1) hand strikes; 2) kicks; 3) grappling with the quality that all that have been developed and are constantly undergoing refinement under pressure testing vs. something done the same way it was 100 years ago for the sake of doing it that way...

[PangQuan]

That was gold MP. Wish more people would stick that in their heads.

+1

my message is too D@MN SHORT RAWRRR!@!!!

[TenTigers]

what is mixing as opposed to developing attributes? I believe in developing your tools. Not in a, "One from column A, one from column B" attitude, but to prepare the student to fight against all opponents. How can you defend against something you don't know how to do properly?
Then again, we come from generations of "mixing." Wong Fei-Hung "mixed" elements of Hop-Ga with Hung Kuen to develop present day Guangdong Hung-Ga. Choy Li Fut is combined as well, Buk-Sing even more so. I train with an old guy from Guangzhao, who does a different Hung Kuen lineage, yet he has added many northern kicking techniques, as he feels it rounds out the system. He is in his seventies, a staunch traditionalist, and yet is very "modern" in his attitude on training skill sets.

[JetLi'sFearless]

I learned all that stuff and I still suck at fighting, infact I never remembered on how to sue any of it besides some boxing and the mid shin kicks, all the rest like judo throws almost always goes out the window. I doubt I would be much worse if I didnt train at all in that stuff. Once someone has adrenaline you can hit them with anything and theyll still keep coming.

[mantis108]

Kung Fu traditionally has Da (striking), Ti (kicking), Shuai (throwing/takedowns), and Na (seizing or grappling). Some styles would have Dian (pin point striking), Da (gross motor smashing), Shuai (wrestling/throwing), Na (grappling). They are used in conjunction with each other as combinations. "IF" the fight goes to the ground, it is much perfered to ground 'n pound rather than ground fighting a la BJJ. Notice I said "IF" the fight goes to the ground because in Kung Fu conventional mindset, you are done when the fight goes to the ground. So you either finish your opponent before that or if (not when) the fight goes to the ground, you pound your opponent to submission. This is why positional play (ground fighter) was never developed in Kung Fu.

Often old fashion Kung Fu Sifus would rather teach and fight with Da and Ti more so then Shuai and Na which are attributes that are much harder and often dangerous to built. If anyone has seen most of the old footages especially the one with Wu Style Tai Chi Vs White Crane, you will see what I mean. We do know that this model would not work in the post NHB era.

I don't believe Kung Fu's fighting approach is hopeless nor it is hard or time consuming to teach. Much of the BS came from people holding onto an out of date training paradigm which often doesn't include sparring against resistive partner in all ranges as an attribute building exercise. Plus the fact that they don't want to invest in lost (ie begin as a white belt BJJer while being a Kung Fu teacher) They just refused to face the music. That's all.

Mantis108

[rogue]

Never mind. From the title I thought this was a thread about women.:o

[Water Dragon]

Heh, and I thought it was gonna be about footwork. ;)

[rogue]

I guess we're both disappointed.:D

[rogue]

But seriously folks...


If I taught those sweeps in isolation without emphasizing the concepts, they would take forever to learn. By presenting them as part of an overarching theme, it becomes far less overwhelming.

Think of the ripple that causes in many TMA. All the supposed secrets, excessive rank and the "it takes a lifetime" nonsense goes out the window, not to mention a bit of cash that the more successful snake oil salesmen are collecting. Many school owners want their students to be overwhelmed, to chase that dangling carrot, to be impressed by 3,000 techniques instead of 20 with variations. And many students obviously want the snake oil.

[Water Dragon]

If someone came into my school (man or woman) scared and/or with visible past injures and wanted to learn how to defend his/herself, I would tell them to learn three things: BJJ, western boxing and a kicking art (probably Thai boxing). The good thing is that many schools teach two or all of these martial arts in the same place. I call these arts the triangle of power.

You might be wondering why i didn't say kuing fu. One reason is kung fu takes a long time to learn. Most styles just don't work. Most styles are incomplete. The styles that are half-way decent have teachers who won't teach or who can't teacher.

Yes. I am a TCMAist, but I am not going to lie. A person who trains in just one of the three for one year can easily handle a a kung fu guy who has been training for five or more.

So what should be done? Kung fu needs a complete overhaul if it doesn't want to become wushu.

PS

I know this topic has been posted before, but I feel it is important and it should be brought up again.

I pretty much feel the same way. I did 5 years of TaiChi in the William CC Chen style. Then I learned ACSCA Shuai Chiao for about 3 1/2 years. I'm 'officially' a green belt, but unofficailly a blue belt, but that's another story. I also learned some very solid 'inner door' stuff from other systems during that time. Power drills, footwork patterns, entries, that type of stuff. Then I did MMA for 2 1/2 years under Miguel Torres doing BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, and of course, MMA. I was training CMA and MMA at the same time, and taking what I learned from each to the other for comparison. I was lucky in that both helped me integrate the other, and if my perspective ever seems odd, that's where it developed. I've been doing Judo for the past 2 1/2 years under some highlky prestigious Judoka.

What I've found to work best for me, is to focus my training on my sport, which is basically focusing on randori, or sparring, and supplementing with some Kund Fu drills as auxiliary training. For example, I've been workinf O Soto for the past year, so I do some stance work on the side. For O Soto, I do cat stance, and dragon plays in water. I do the Diagonal Cut drill from SC with a focus on the entry, a couple belt cracks, and an upper body 'fa jing' exercise. I'm starting to work Hiza Guruma, so I'm about to put that stuff back and pull out a workout structured around that throw. That's my basic thinking anyway.

[wiz cool c]

If you go to a Bagua school you they should do rou shou 30 minutes every class instead of 5 minutes every 6 months. Same with Tai Chi they should do free style puushing every class. Whatever the style they should sparr ever class with it. And it doesn't have to be like a tiger.As long as they do it all the time.

In my old school in NYC they had two sparring classes and Push Hand/ Rou Shou classes every week. I went to one sparring and Push hand/Rou Shou class each week. Out of maybe 50 students two of us where regulars at those classes. Now a regular student who didn't attend those classes at this school would do forms99% of the time and maybe every couple of month they woukd work on a application. If they trained for a year there and didn't go to sparring class maybe they would sparr once or twice. This is how most schools train.

Every class 30 minutes of your styles method of sparring. And it's ok to loss those kung fu movies aren't real.

[JetLi'sFearless]

neither is sparring, infact none of the streetfights ive been in felt remotely anything like sparring, unlike in sparring where a weak nut shot will end it in real fighting u can rpactically hit them with a hammer and theyll keep coming over and voer again (unless u do grappling but than ull get jumped by their friends and end up spitting blood by the end of the night).

[monkeyfoot]

If i were training kung fu with only fighting in mind, then I would definitely train Iron Palm/Iron Shirt, this would then make up for whatever losses people feel kung fu has.

The problem with this whole debate is this. People dig at Kung Fu so much saying 'it doesn't work as well as BJJ etc' but really this is a load of rubbish. Why Kung Fu in modern days seems less efficient is because most people aren't willing to training things like Iron Palm and the many other exercises that will inevitably damage the body. So they train things like BJJ where they can learn effective techniques without worrying about the physical consequences.

Kung Fu is a very effective art, but it relies on all the other training elements (like iron palm etc) for its true light to be shown. Most never reach/want this stage, so they never experience the true power/fighting ability of kung fu. Instead they learn wrestling or BJJ; arts where practical effectiveness is more blatant and less subtle than in Kung Fu.

In the end, if you look, you will find

craig

[sanjuro_ronin]

It takes about 6 months to a year to make someone a "fighter" if that is what they want, regardless of style.
Fighting is very basic, even if you look at BJJ and MM you will see the use of a very limited amount of moves in the fights.
Quantity of techniques is irrelevant, quality beats quantity anytime.

Now, to be a Martial Artist, THAT takes years.

It is much simple to train someone to fight than to train them to be a fighter even more so to train them to be a martial artist.

That fact that some TMA DRAG out the learning process has to do more with economics than with whatever style they are teaching.

Heck, of all the systems I have trained in, I can teach the core of them to anyone in at least 6 months, if not quicker.

[B-Rad]

I was just thinking that if I haven't learned something in 5 years that I could learn somewhere else in 1, then I doubt the next 5 years is suddenly going to make me that much better than the 1 year guy that can kick my @ss (who, hypotheticaly, is also training hard this whole time). Why is a punch or a side kick in TCMA so much more complicated than in Thai kickboxing that it takes 5 times as long to learn? I understand you get a lot more 2-3 day/week hobbyists in CMA, and people that just don't care about being able to stand toe to toe with a competitive fighter so obviously they're not going to learn as fast... But for the more full time people that want to develop good fighting skill, I just don't get what the problem is that it would take so long. Even taking into account the form work, you should still be training the conditioning and sparring. Forms aren't that long.

[B-Rad]

Heck, of all the systems I have trained in, I can teach the core of them to anyone in at least 6 months, if not quicker.
I think another part of the problem is, a lot don't teach the core of the system and start off on fairly complicated form work rather than jibengong. The student ends up spending a good chunk of their time memorizing coreography rather than actually learning the techniques well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was just thinking that if I haven't learned something in 5 years that I could learn somewhere else in 1, then I doubt the next 5 years is suddenly going to make me that much better than the 1 year guy that can kick my @ss (who, hypotheticaly, is also training hard this whole time). Why is a punch or a side kick in TCMA so much more complicated than in Thai kickboxing that it takes 5 times as long to learn? I understand you get a lot more 2-3 day/week hobbyists in CMA, and people that just don't care about being able to stand toe to toe with a competitive fighter so obviously they're not going to learn as fast... But for the more full time people that want to develop good fighting skill, I just don't get what the problem is that it would take so long. Even taking into account the form work, you should still be training the conditioning and sparring. Forms aren't that long.

I was doing hard contact bareknuckle fighting 3 months into kyokushin.
And we have forms too.

Some MA are oriented towards fighting, others aren't.

[SevenStar]

If i were training kung fu with only fighting in mind, then I would definitely train Iron Palm/Iron Shirt, this would then make up for whatever losses people feel kung fu has.

The problem with this whole debate is this. People dig at Kung Fu so much saying 'it doesn't work as well as BJJ etc' but really this is a load of rubbish. Why Kung Fu in modern days seems less efficient is because most people aren't willing to training things like Iron Palm and the many other exercises that will inevitably damage the body. So they train things like BJJ where they can learn effective techniques without worrying about the physical consequences.

Kung Fu is a very effective art, but it relies on all the other training elements (like iron palm etc) for its true light to be shown. Most never reach/want this stage, so they never experience the true power/fighting ability of kung fu. Instead they learn wrestling or BJJ; arts where practical effectiveness is more blatant and less subtle than in Kung Fu.

In the end, if you look, you will find

craig


I disagree. If that's the case, why are the mma guys winning without iron palm? Iron palm is an accessory to your training, not a necessity. proper mechanics and bagwork will teach you to punch hard. And iron palm done properly should not damage the hands.

what's practical are basics. Watch any fighter, not just mma guys. in san shou, you see plenty of basics. Judo? plenty of basics. fighting is all about basics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Basic rule,simple and effective, has a match ever been won with an "advanced" technique ??

As for IP and IV, there was a reason why so many dropped them from their curriculm.
The reason is that they are no substitute for fighting skill.

A good fighter with no IP beats a bad fighter with IP any day.

Those things should he taught at their proper time, when an individual is already a competent fighter.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What it iron hand anyway? When you distill it down to the core, it's just impact training on a bag...what is heavy bag work? It's also impact training on a bag...

Iron Hand training just takes it to a higher level by using a movable medium, and adding the herbal treatments. Also, a LOT of martial arts schools do this type of practice. I'd say more do it, than don't...so i doubt you are going to find a fight oriented school that does not hit bags and harden thier fists from it.

What changes is how efficiently this is done, and i think that varies even in TCMA schools.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What it iron hand anyway? When you distill it down to the core, it's just impact training on a bag...what is heavy bag work? It's also impact training on a bag...

Iron Hand training just takes it to a higher level by using a movable medium, and adding the herbal treatments. Also, a LOT of martial arts schools do this type of practice. I'd say more do it, than don't...so i doubt you are going to find a fight oriented school that does not hit bags and harden thier fists from it.

What changes is how efficiently this is done, and i think that varies even in TCMA schools.

I think that the increase in bone density makes IP unique compared to HB work.
And most do HB with gloves on top of it.

Think the conditioned feet of a bare foot runner VS someone that has done the same amount of running with running shoes.

[SevenStar]

I was just thinking that if I haven't learned something in 5 years that I could learn somewhere else in 1, then I doubt the next 5 years is suddenly going to make me that much better than the 1 year guy that can kick my @ss (who, hypotheticaly, is also training hard this whole time). Why is a punch or a side kick in TCMA so much more complicated than in Thai kickboxing that it takes 5 times as long to learn? I understand you get a lot more 2-3 day/week hobbyists in CMA, and people that just don't care about being able to stand toe to toe with a competitive fighter so obviously they're not going to learn as fast... But for the more full time people that want to develop good fighting skill, I just don't get what the problem is that it would take so long. Even taking into account the form work, you should still be training the conditioning and sparring. Forms aren't that long.

it's not the technique, it's the training. forms, weapons, iron palm, qigong... How often do you spar? things like that. Here is about how my classes were going at the time I stopped cma:

warm up
technique practice
forms

this was over the span of a 1.5 hour class. we had qi/neigong classes that were seperate, and if we were lucky, we sparred about 30 mins once per week. Now, bear in mind when I first started there, we sparred pretty much every class.

In judo/bjj/muay thai, this is our breakdown:

warm up
technique drills (usually with contact and pads)
sparring
ab-work

about 30 mins of each class is sparring. so, you are sparring AND drilling with resistance during every class. That is where the difference lies. even if you only train three days per week, you are sparring for 1.5 hours per week.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's not the technique, it's the training. forms, weapons, iron palm, qigong... How often do you spar? things like that. Here is about how my classes were going at the time I stopped cma:

warm up
technique practice
forms

this was over the span of a 1.5 hour class. we had qi/neigong classes that were seperate, and if we were lucky, we sparred about 30 mins once per week. Now, bear in mind when I first started there, we sparred pretty much every class.

In judo/bjj/muay thai, this is our breakdown:

warm up
technique drills (usually with contact and pads)
sparring
ab-work

about 30 mins of each class is sparring. so, you are sparring AND drilling with resistance during every class. That is where the difference lies. even if you only train three days per week, you are sparring for 1.5 hours per week.

And that truly makes all the difference in the world, more so as a beginner as opposed to the "maintence" level.
It doesn't mean you wil be a fighter or even be able to handle yourself if the time comes, but you certainly will have a better chance.

[SevenStar]

I think that the increase in bone density makes IP unique compared to HB work.
And most do HB with gloves on top of it.

Think the conditioned feet of a bare foot runner VS someone that has done the same amount of running with running shoes.

I would think that any impact work would increase bone density, not just iron palm. I hit bags bare handed, but no longer do iron palm training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would think that any impact work would increase bone density, not just iron palm. I hit bags bare handed, but no longer do iron palm training.

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

Reply]
That is because Iron palm uses a movable medium, and the herbs. It's vastly superior to just doing bag work, HOWEVER, Bag work is still impact training, and you still develop a good deal of Iron Fist by doing it...enough to get the job done at least.

[golden arhat]

That's an interesting list.

I'd substitute Judo or western wrestling for BJJ, and I think lkfmdc would argue that the styles taking a long time to learn to be reasonably effective is a product of ****-poor training methods, not an inherent flaw.

i thought the point of having "mixed" martial arts was that u took the best **** and mixed it up
this is its advantage (1 among many mind you, but i wont go into that)
so judo western wrestling and bjj can be taught as 1

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

Reply]
That is because Iron palm uses a movable medium, and the herbs. It's vastly superior to just doing bag work, HOWEVER, Bag work is still impact training, and you still develop a good deal of Iron Fist by doing it...enough to get the job done at least.

More than enough in some cases.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i thought the point of having "mixed" martial arts was that u took the best **** and mixed it up
this is its advantage (1 among many mind you, but i wont go into that)
so judo western wrestling and bjj can be taught as 1

MMA is great as a ruleset for sport combat but at THIS stage, not so much as a "martial art", it produces more "jack of all trades" rather than "master of mutiple trades".

[Shaolinlueb]

flying monkey. i think thats an insult to tma and i wouldnt call yourself a tma guy if you would teach other things right out of the bat.

tma is great for defense. sports fighting is great for in ring too. if you keep teh training simple and stuff then the pay off will be the same if not greater then the mma, bjj, and mauy thai training. i cant believe i read that stuff, especially from you.

[BraveMonkey]

A note on sparring: Although sparring is an important part of training. Pushing students to spar too early just re-enforces sloppy habits.

All human being have basic fighting instincts, but most of them are inferior to trained techniques unless you are a huge MF. Charging in blindly and swinging like crazy vs. running away or curling into a fetus position are examples of human fighting instinct.

To spar or fight well a person has to get passed the base reflexive responses and hone propper tools. Too much honing and the edge is too weak, but not enough honing and the edge is too dull, but honed it must be or it's a chunk of metal and not a blade.

Too often students are eager to mix it up so they go in and the adrenaline washes away everything they've learned. At least the most basic techniques need to be learned and learned well before they are applied. This can be done through bag-work, shadow boxing, and slow sparring. I'm not suggesting that students should train for years before they face some active resistance, but going it slow at first seems the wiser course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

flying monkey. i think thats an insult to tma and i wouldnt call yourself a tma guy if you would teach other things right out of the bat.

tma is great for defense. sports fighting is great for in ring too. if you keep teh training simple and stuff then the pay off will be the same if not greater then the mma, bjj, and mauy thai training. i cant believe i read that stuff, especially from you.

All the arts he chose were TMA.
While BJJ is pretty "new", its about the same age as some of the newer karate systems and does have more of the TMA characteristics.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed, but you can still get them in to some sort of live training almost day one. for example, i have a twoman footwork drill that can be simplified into a basic response drill. You have one move forward, and the other moves back wards. drill for a bit. The go to one moves forward, the other moves to the side.

Once you have them doing those two drills well, you start having one move forward, and the other choses to go backwards, or to the side. The one moving forward must now track the one retreating and follow thier more random directional choices.

You can add some circle foot work to that too, giving you a 3rd dimension.

Now, once they have that, you add a bit of variety by haveing the first move forward, and the second uses either a backward retreat, moving sideways, or circling followed by suddenly changing directions and moving forward on the first student, who now has to match his oponents timming and move back, to the side or circle.

It then becomes a game to see how well the students can react to each other's incoming and retreating forces.

as time goes on, you can add a jab, or simple attacks, and later counters to that that have an ever increasing level of difficulty. in the end it becomes free sparring at a very early age.

I used to do this when I taught the kids. I had to find a way to get them sparring fast (12 weeks from thier first day), so i broke it all down and made this method up . It was a huge success, and my guys allways did extremely well in the little point comps compared to all the other competitors who had the same experience.

It turned out to be a great way to get students working in an alive fashion, almost day one, without the typical break down into flailing.

[SevenStar]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

:D

looking at that perspective, sure. But I am only talking about increased bone density. ANY impact or weight bearing should increase bone density.

[sanjuro_ronin]

looking at that perspective, sure. But I am only talking about increased bone density. ANY impact or weight bearing should increase bone density.

Sure, the extent seems to be greater with IP.

Quick summation:
I dislocated my ring finger on my right hand a couple of years ago, got it x-rayed of course.
Started IP almost a year ago, at about the 6 month mark I asked my doc if I could get an x-ray of my right hand to "check on my finger" that had been dislocated.
I spoke to the technician and he compared the pre-IP x-ray of that hand with the current one and he noticed a "slight increase in density".
Granted that, it was AFTER I asked him to look better at it, it wasn't noticiable in the "holly crap dude what happend to your hand" kind of way.

:D

[golden arhat]

MMA is great as a ruleset for sport combat but at THIS stage, not so much as a "martial art", it produces more "jack of all trades" rather than "master of mutiple trades".


it doesnt produce a jack of all trades

its all taught as 1

and we train longer and harder and more often than you do so before u say we dont know anything
or that we are just brawlers or untidy or "jacks of all trades"
how about u take in to account that tma has so many people who collect forms and go from school to school calling themselves 8th dan in this that and the other

i'd say it was the other way around

[SevenStar]

i thought the point of having "mixed" martial arts was that u took the best **** and mixed it up
this is its advantage (1 among many mind you, but i wont go into that)
so judo western wrestling and bjj can be taught as 1

no, that is the point of jkd. the point of mma is striking and grappling. period. many bjj schools have added in some wrestling and judo, but that doesn't mean bjj is an mma itself. It merely means that mma adapts to change.

[SevenStar]

A note on sparring: Although sparring is an important part of training. Pushing students to spar too early just re-enforces sloppy habits.

All human being have basic fighting instincts, but most of them are inferior to trained techniques unless you are a huge MF. Charging in blindly and swinging like crazy vs. running away or curling into a fetus position are examples of human fighting instinct.

To spar or fight well a person has to get passed the base reflexive responses and hone propper tools. Too much honing and the edge is too weak, but not enough honing and the edge is too dull, but honed it must be or it's a chunk of metal and not a blade.

Too often students are eager to mix it up so they go in and the adrenaline washes away everything they've learned. At least the most basic techniques need to be learned and learned well before they are applied. This can be done through bag-work, shadow boxing, and slow sparring. I'm not suggesting that students should train for years before they face some active resistance, but going it slow at first seems the wiser course.

there is no reason that one can't start sparring within three months.

[SevenStar]

All the arts he chose were TMA.
While BJJ is pretty "new", its about the same age as some of the newer karate systems and does have more of the TMA characteristics.

while they are technically tma - or have tma roots, they are not grouped with them typically, since they are sport arts.

[BraveMonkey]

Agreed, but you can still get them in to some sort of live training almost day one. for example, i have a twoman footwork drill that can be simplified into a basic response drill. You have one move forward, and the other moves back wards. drill for a bit. The go to one moves forward, the other moves to the side.

Etc...

I agree with the approach you described in your post as I see that as going "slow". Working with a partner is fine, even from day one. I was speaking more of schools where everybody gets a nifty new uniform and is allowed to just go at it from the start. It's an ugly thing to watch and confounds the learning process. I think sparring too early does a real disservice to the students.

As far as how long students should wait, I guess that depends on what they are working on. Three months is fine for some, but more or less may be appropriate for others. The instructor needs to judge when his/her students are ready to use more force without hurting themselves or their partners and when they have acquired enough skill to apply it without relying solely on muscle and reach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

while they are technically tma - or have tma roots, they are not grouped with them typically, since they are sport arts.

Sport arts can be TMA - judo, boxing and wrestling come to mind.
But I agree that most don't typically see them as such.