Tid Sin Kuen and Sam Chien/Sanchin comparison

[The Xia]

This is an offshoot of "The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu" thread.
Iron Wire and Sam Chien/Sanchin both train core concepts and provide conditioning appropriate to their given styles. The breathing in both Sam Chien/Sanchin and Tid Sin Kuen are factors in locking the body in a certain way. What I see that sets Tid Sin Kuen apart, besides the aforementioned aspects, are the different sounds and breathing that correspond to specific organs. I welcome others to add to, criticize, or comment on what I said.
TenTigers posted that before Wong Fei Hung, Tid Sin Kuen was Sam Chien Tid Sin Kuen, which leaves me to conclude that there is a historical connection between the two. Anyone know more about this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am still quite skeptical about the sound-organ relationship.

John Springer ( Yeah I know, nevertheless listen) wrote a quite excellent articl on it over on www.truthmartialarts.org ( if there are issues with posting links to other websites let me know).
Its an excellent view on the western scientific view on the Iron Wire.

That said, I have seen many a varied breathing pattern applied to Sanchin, from the typical okinawan Goju to the very different Uechi one.

I myself do a modified version of the OLD Goju Sanchin.

[Lam Tong Long]

From what I understand, San Chien (by whatever romanization) is the Japanese name of the particular tension set which was derived from the 'Sam Bo Jin' (or similar) set of SPM/Crane/etc...

I have never heard of the san chien name being used prior to the export of the set to Japan. Maybe Tentigers could provide a bit more info.

WRT the 'sounds' it is a well known facet of TCM that different sounds accompany different organs and can be used to stimulate them so (despite not knowing any hung gar) it would follow that the sounds in the 'Iron Thread Fist' set would be very valuable in affecting the organs.

Probably a comparison/investigation of 'Tid Sin Kune' and 'Sam Bo Jin' would yield closer results (and possibly common influence, if not ancestry).

[wu-ji]

三戦= San Zhan;Sam Chien; Three Battles
三步箭= San Bu Jian; Sam Bo Jin ; Three Step Arrow
直步拳= Zhi Bu Quan; Jik Bo Kuen; Straight Step Fist

All the children of the same father. They all teach the same importances: 4 principles, 6 power for Hakka/5 power for Fukkien, 8 laws. All principles exist in each lineage with different emphasis, which I argue as more of variance of individual teachers than of the lineages.

There is also static iron shirt qigong training which is also essential. This is choreographed differently for each lineage. It exists as Tit Sim Kuen in Hung Gar.

Some Hakka and Fukkien lineages incorporate that to their 三戦/三步箭/直步拳 with different degrees.

All together, these are the essence of kinetic principles of Southern Kung Fu.

To argue which predates which is pointless and purely academical. The way the "genes" flow doesn't really matter for practical purposes. What important is how similar is the "DNA."

In Ngo Cho Kun, there is a saying "San Zhan is not like what it seems. Learn San Zhan since the beginning, learn San Zhan until death."

Why is it the first and also the most advanced form? Because it allows the practitioners to learn, train, and manifest their understanding of the arts. The movement sequence will stay the same, but the manifestation differs according to the level.

Fukkien/Hakka masters only need to see this form and can see how advance the practitioner is. For everybody else, it looks stupid and meaningless.

[TenTigers]

Eric Ling has posted some beautiful versions od sanzhan-saamjien/sanchin. I especially am fond of the Fujien Young Chun Bai-Hei -Fukien Wing Chun Bak-Hok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_N6YkpZblI&mode=related&search=
as this set also maps out the first few hand drills I was taught in SPM.
BTW-in our line of Jook Lum SPM, they refer to the set as Sam Bo Ging-Three Step Power.
Getting back to the sounds-I have learned several samchiens-first being in Kyokushin-Kai, second in Okinawan Gojuryu-similar, yet different. The Kyokushin was more vocal, more gutteral, less refined IMHO, yet served its purpose. It got us pumped, psyched, and we took hard shots to the body,all of which prepared us for the hard contact,bare-knuckle sparring that follows. Mas Oyama learned from Gogen ("The Cat")Yamaguchi, who also taught Peter Urban. Urban's USA Goju's sanchin was even more exaggerrated, but you could see the common root-Yamaguchi. Gogen, translates as "Rough" due to his hardcore training. Probably it was he who inspired Mas Oyama to meditate under waterfalls and go through harsh training.
The Okinawan Gojuryu, was quiet, more precise,and much more explanation of the packing of the breath,drawing up of the pernium, and "breathing off the top of your breath"-meaning, exhalation always left a reserve, which remained packed. This is similar to the Ngo Cho Kune and Fukien Bak Hok that I've seen. There is also a version of Ngor Mei P'ai Samjien Kuen that looks like a cross between both.
The breathing in Sam Bo Ging is more similar to the Okinawan version. It is said that if you were to have powder on your upper lip-say, from a donut, your breath shouldn't disturb it. This version was developed no doubt,by Police Officers.:p
As far as the sounds are concerned, I was taught that the sounds are to teach the student the proper way to breathe in order to release tensions placed upon the internal organs. Also, different sounds will vibrate in different areas of the body. We resonate. If you place the palms of your hands on your heart and stomach, then vibrate,"hmmmmmm" from high to low pitch, you will actually feel the vibrations move within tyour body from high to low. Higher tones resonate higher in the body, lower tones vibrate lower. Just as in SCUBA, or Lifesaving, when you breathe high in your chest, you float up on the surface, when you breathe from the dan tien, you will float vertically suspended in the water.
Likewise, when you need to sink and root, you will use a lower,deeper "Hah" sound in the dantien, and when you need a quick strike, or a jump, you will vibrate higher with a "Hite" sound, or similar.
It isn't rocket science, and too many people like to write and talk volumes on the subject, linking it to all sorts of five element theory, six healing sounds, etc.
Speaking of six sounds-there is another entire different six sounds noi-gung that is not based upon the organs but on the chakras. Many of these sounds are connected to emotional states and are used to release, or build this energy within the body. I am still working on this connection so I am afraid I am not qualified to write on this subject.

[kismet]

Yup definately see a strong relationship between saam bo gin and the sanchin kata.

Its also very interesting regarding sounds and how we resonate. I am wondering is there is a connection between that and us having a large water/blood/fluid percentage? Anyone seen images from and read "The Hidden Messages in Water", by Masaru Emoto? It shows the effects of emotions on water which may relate to TT comments in someway that sounds are connected to emotional states?

Sounds are important IMO. See a lot of it in mantras, prayers and the way certain devotional songs are sung (i.e. in hinduism / buddhism - "OM" etc). Must be a strong connection between sounds and its effect on the body / mind I reckon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to Okinawan Goju, the realtionship with Fukien White Crane is quite clear and recognised by all, Higaonna Sensei modified what he learned but kept the core principles.
They were further modified (without reason in my view) by Miyagi sensei into the more common and short version of Sanchin we commonly see today ( the one without the turns).
Uechi-ryu's sanchin is more "dragon influenced" than white crane, hence the different breathing patterns and techniques.

Better/ worse is irrelevant, different is quite correct.

As for the sounds... to quote a poster on TMA:

"Just on the effect of sound of the mind-body, yes to certain inductive sounds as used in Buddhist meditation, and yes too, to infra-sound - which human are subliminally susceptible to. The Mersey Tunnel (in the UK) is a proven infra-sound generator, and its entrance/exit at Birkenhead points directly at a former office complex (Cammel Lairds Ship Builders) wherein there was a sharp increase in 'sick-building syndrome' complaints and also some related phobic and obsessive-compulsive conditions, even 'ghosts' reported. Humans don't generate infra sound, but some mammalian predators do (Tigers for example). Manipulation of auditory channels are common in trance-induction techniques in many cultures. Pair that with changes in respiration and ritualised motions - then you can achieve a great deal. What people believe about what and why they do things is often decisive. You should expect a lot of clustering of common explanations around things like TSK and San-Chin, Sam-Bo-Gin etc - partly on actual relatedness, and partly on auto-suggestion and inference of an altered and special state accessible through those practices. "

[David Jamieson]

tid sen is far more comprehensive than sam chin.

sam chin is basic dynamic tension exercise, tid sen takes it further. There are other sets that go beyond both and touch near the whole body in context to what is being done.

In my experience there is no comparison between tid sen and sam chin.

sam chin is very simple, it's the dynamic tension and breathing that people have difficulty finding. sam chin is rudimentary compared to tid sen.

they are both good in context to where they are from and what they are used for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanchin is the "walking before running".

[The Xia]

Eric Ling has posted some beautiful versions od sanzhan-saamjien/sanchin. I especially am fond of the Fujien Young Chun Bai-Hei -Fukien Wing Chun Bak-Hok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_N6YkpZblI&mode=related&search=
as this set also maps out the first few hand drills I was taught in SPM.
BTW-in our line of Jook Lum SPM, they refer to the set as Sam Bo Ging-Three Step Power.
Getting back to the sounds-I have learned several samchiens-first being in Kyokushin-Kai, second in Okinawan Gojuryu-similar, yet different. The Kyokushin was more vocal, more gutteral, less refined IMHO, yet served its purpose. It got us pumped, psyched, and we took hard shots to the body,all of which prepared us for the hard contact,bare-knuckle sparring that follows. Mas Oyama learned from Gogen ("The Cat")Yamaguchi, who also taught Peter Urban. Urban's USA Goju's sanchin was even more exaggerrated, but you could see the common root-Yamaguchi. Gogen, translates as "Rough" due to his hardcore training. Probably it was he who inspired Mas Oyama to meditate under waterfalls and go through harsh training.
The Okinawan Gojuryu, was quiet, more precise,and much more explanation of the packing of the breath,drawing up of the pernium, and "breathing off the top of your breath"-meaning, exhalation always left a reserve, which remained packed. This is similar to the Ngo Cho Kune and Fukien Bak Hok that I've seen. There is also a version of Ngor Mei P'ai Samjien Kuen that looks like a cross between both.
The breathing in Sam Bo Ging is more similar to the Okinawan version. It is said that if you were to have powder on your upper lip-say, from a donut, your breath shouldn't disturb it. This version was developed no doubt,by Police Officers.:p
As far as the sounds are concerned, I was taught that the sounds are to teach the student the proper way to breathe in order to release tensions placed upon the internal organs. Also, different sounds will vibrate in different areas of the body. We resonate. If you place the palms of your hands on your heart and stomach, then vibrate,"hmmmmmm" from high to low pitch, you will actually feel the vibrations move within tyour body from high to low. Higher tones resonate higher in the body, lower tones vibrate lower. Just as in SCUBA, or Lifesaving, when you breathe high in your chest, you float up on the surface, when you breathe from the dan tien, you will float vertically suspended in the water.
Likewise, when you need to sink and root, you will use a lower,deeper "Hah" sound in the dantien, and when you need a quick strike, or a jump, you will vibrate higher with a "Hite" sound, or similar.
It isn't rocket science, and too many people like to write and talk volumes on the subject, linking it to all sorts of five element theory, six healing sounds, etc.
Speaking of six sounds-there is another entire different six sounds noi-gung that is not based upon the organs but on the chakras. Many of these sounds are connected to emotional states and are used to release, or build this energy within the body. I am still working on this connection so I am afraid I am not qualified to write on this subject.
But don't the sounds correspond to the five animals, five elements, and organs? (Dragon-Earth-Stomach and spleen, Crane-Wood-Liver and gall bladder, Snake-Water-Kidney and bladder, Tiger-Fire-Heart and small intestine, Leopard-Metal-Large intestine and lungs)
I'm wondering if it's possible that Wong Fei Hung took a Sam Jien form, modified and added to it?
It would be interesting to see what a Hung Gar Sam Jien form looks like to see the development of the Iron Wire.

[tattooedmonk]

Fire, heart /sm. intestines, Crane.
Earth, stomach / spleen, monkey.
Metal, lungs / lg. intestines, deer.
Water, kidneys / urinary bladder, tiger.
Wood liver /gall bladder, bear.

And Yes the sounds coordinate, so do colors , directions, foods,etc.

[David Jamieson]

Fire, heart /sm. intestines, Crane.
Earth, stomach / spleen, monkey.
Metal, lungs / lg. intestines, deer.
Water, kidneys / urinary bladder, tiger.
Wood liver /gall bladder, bear.

And Yes the sounds coordinate, so do colors , directions, foods,etc.

On the track, but not quite how it fits together, not even in five phase theory which when held in tandem with acupuncture practice is questionable by most reuptable practitioners of same.

the five animals in your interpretation are not those of Shaolin, so perhaps your record is different or another esoteric form? Where is it from?

[Vajramusti]

All together, these are the essence of kinetic principles of Southern Kung Fu.

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Interesting discussion. But FWIW mainline Ip man wing chun does not use sanchin or iron wire
breathing and is different in the details of stancing- though its also a southern art.

joy chaudhuri

[David Jamieson]

monkey, deer and bear are related to hsing i aren't they? which is northern isn't it.

not sure of the cosmology.

[tattooedmonk]

On the track, but not quite how it fits together, not even in five phase theory which when held in tandem with acupuncture practice is questionable by most reuptable practitioners of same.

the five animals in your interpretation are not those of Shaolin, so perhaps your record is different or another esoteric form? Where is it from?

Not quite how it fits together?? How so?? Hua Tuo's 5 Animal Frolics. I am sure that these are more accurate than any other.

[The Xia]

All together, these are the essence of kinetic principles of Southern Kung Fu.

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Interesting discussion. But FWIW mainline Ip man wing chun does not use sanchin or iron wire
breathing and is different in the details of stancing- though its also a southern art.

joy chaudhuri
I'm not all that familiar with Wing Chun, but I've heard that Siu Lum Tao serves a Sam Chien like purpose for the art. Is that true?

[The Xia]

Not quite how it fits together?? How so?? Hua Tuo's 5 Animal Frolics. I am sure that these are more accurate than any other.
In Hung Gar and many other Southern Shaolin arts, the five animals are Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane, and Panther.

[tattooedmonk]

In Hung Gar and many other Southern Shaolin arts, the five animals are Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane, and Panther.I am aware of this, I practice them. I was just adding something where it did not belong.

[The Xia]

I'm not all that familiar with Wing Chun, but I've heard that Siu Lum Tao serves a Sam Chien like purpose for the art. Is that true?
ttt........

[The Xia]

I know that Sam Chien is often taught to beginners but gets more advanced with progression. For example, I remember hearing that SPM starts and ends in Sam Bo Jin. Tid Sin Kuen in Hung Gar is usually taught only at advanced levels, but what about the Sam Chien Tid Sin Kuen used by non-Wong Fei Hung lineages?