Beng Bu

[Tainan Mantis]

I recently had the chance to exchange kung fu with Mantis 108.
We taught each other our beng bu solo and partner forms.

My beng bu is similar to the HK 7* if you look at the moves in a book, though the performance of the form looks quite different. also it has 5 more moves.

The TJPM form is a little shorter than the HK 7* version. It is qite different, but immediately recognizable by 7* people as the same form.

The strange thing is the partner versions are totally different.
Techniques that are the same are
-sticking elbow
-turning elbow
-hook kick
-7* stance waist chop

All the other techniques in the form that look the same actually have different applications.
TJPM has a special affection for chie zhou or cutting elbow. This is also noticed in this beng bu form.
One move of 7* beng bu that I didn't like had a totally different application in TJPM. I'll save the details for later.

The biggest difference was the way the partners stick together.
In my version we stay together from start to finish and incorporate every move of the form. That includes the final mantis posture which wasn't included in WHF's book on the 2 man form.

In the TJPM version the people break up and come together again at least 4 times. This means that not all the moves in the solo form are in the partner form. But don't worry as they are included in the series called Taidzu Duanda which is a specialty of the TJPM method.

I have learned several types of traditional 2 man form that follows this break up and come together logic. I think of it as a skeletal framework for applying moves not in the form(usually we save this method for the 2 man drills that aren't in the forms).
For example; after the first break up we should go to section 2 but instead we go to section 3 or maybe some other technique not in the form.

Wah Lum people will be interested to know that this form has several similarities to their beng bu that WL beng bu doesn't share with 7*.

[mantis108]

I am curious to which is the move in 7* Beng Bu you don't like but saw a different application in TJPM?

I believe you gave a very accurate and insightful report on the forms.

This reminded me of the methodology discussion awhile ago on the KFO. I believe you showed me the Changquan method, which I think is also known as Ying Ching Pau Fa. On the other hand, I showed you the Duan Da method (Taizu Duan Da). They both have their place in the training. May be that's why Josi Wong Long crosstrained. ;)

It would seem that Ying Ching Pau Fa will bring a thorough understanding of the forms as they are intented. One can easily draw out particualr move within the form at will plus that you can work up a rhythm before executing a "kill". This would be great for sparring purposes and drilling techniques non stop.

Taizu Duan Da points to alternative applications and changes. Techniques are less obvious a lot of times. But lots of food for thoughts while training with them. It has less of a sparring oppotunity that is quite different from the Ying Ching Pau Fa.

BTW, I do see there are lots of standup grappling and takedown moves in the 7* Beng Bu. Thanks for showing all that to me.

Almost forgot to mention, there is also Pai Da (iron body training) feel to your version of 7* Beng Bu which I find quite interesting.

Regards,

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

In the 7* version the partner does a double jump kick in the 2nd road followed by a punch. In Taiji version no kick, only punch. I liked it without the kick.

The paida of the form comes from Zhang Dekuei of mimen PM. I think he is one of the few people who learned and taught who to do paida while doing the form.

After talking to Ilya and his theory of drills it would indicate that your version is more ancient. There is no proof at this point, but I can't help wondering at what point did this 2 man form change from one way to the other.

Did they both grow from a common root to what they are today?
Or is one unchanged and the other changed?

Or a little of both?

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan

Maybe I should have started anothe thread 'cause this doesn' t address Beng bu.

[mantis108]

Thanks Tainan. It is very interesting to see the 2 different approaches to 2 men forms. Stylistic differences are bounded to happen. It is both the doing of nature and human. That's just the nature of art. :)

As I am reviewing the materials that are shared, I am becoming more and more aware of how important methodolgies is to training martial arts. Remeber how we even have different approaches to simple drill - one step 3 punches (Yi Bu San Tsui) ?

Researching Praying Mantis system(s) along would truly be a life time study.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Getting back to the technique I didn't like so much in 7* beng bu.

In the 2nd road the partner uses his right leg to kick his opponents left kidney, then does a left jump kick to the opponents mid-section or face.

It is said that a good kick is like hitting someone with a baseball bat. So it would seem that the kicks are okay.

Problem is that in Paida of my teachers school he use a bat a lot bigger and heavier than a baseball bat to deliver full power strikes to the students body.

My grand teacher laughed at my puny gut punches as I punched him in the gut full power. This is when he was 70.

A Shaolin monk let me do flying sidekicks on his chest while he stood there.

Most people can't take a good body kick, but following the iron body pai da those techniques of kicking the body lose value as the opponent is better able to withstand the blows.

Furthermore, it is hard to kick the kidney(not impossible).

On the other hand the jump kick in the 3rd road of beng bu done by the beng bu side of the form is doing a groin kick that is very difficult to block.

In fact, it seems to me that all the rest of the techniques of the form have applications in the 2 man set that iron body can't be of much help in.

So in the TJPM format the same spot where 7* does a jump kick the TJPM version just does a punch to which the partner does an elbow break.

So, here is a fictional story to show a hypothesis.

Wang Lang taught this movement and said," It doesn't matter if the opponent punches or kicks, you just move like this..."

So in some schools the taught one of Wang Lang's ideas and in another school another idea.

So learning from other schools seems to be a good thing.

Since there are some interesting threads on being a sifu, how should a sifu react when their student wants to meet and learn from other masters?

Would it be different if he was teaching cooking?

[spiralstair]

Tough question, and it can only be answered in a case by case way.

Some martial students are 'collectors' and treat forms, techniques and styles as if they are clothing, something to 'wear' to make themselves appear a certain way. They often have pictures of themselves 'posing' with a weapon or in a stance, but the picture won't be about the art, it will really be about how they 'look' doing it. This kind of student is NOT served by studying with multiple teachers, for he's just collecting and needs to learn to go deeper, not broader.

Some martial students are 'researchers' and seek knowlege as a means to deepen their understanding of what they know and where they are going. These students are helped by exposure to other methods/styles and a unthreatened sifu should let them go, since he'll get back a better person.

How to seperate the two? Only time and behavior are the indicators of which is which. A person's words are next to useless.

[RAF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8NeIh0MXyw&mode=related&search=

Other mixes Qi Qing, Babu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6edjcSbizY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBH1VyyuVRs&mode=related&search=

[Wu-Tan-Nan]

Do you know the name of the first form in the second video? The one the group were performing.

[baji-fist]

The first form on the second clip was Zhongyiquan. It is a beginner's form taught in Wu-Tan.

[Camelkie]

Hi,

Beng bu too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6DksUwby6g

Camelkie

[RAF]

Beng Bu, another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j0n2xvx9Uk&mode=related&search=

[RAF]

Beng Bu as I learned it but don't know who this is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8NeIh0MXyw&mode=related&search=

[Sifu Darkfist]

i like his cadence and his flavor. it is funny however that he dosent project that same forward power as we do. His hands are placed well and his body moves well just not as extreme as i like. I guess its just a personal choice. I like to portray all or nothing in my projection as it proves incredibly effective for application.
I guess thats the baji in me

Again thanks Big brother for the find i love to watch one of my favorite forms played by a distant cousin (i am assuming he is a student of Gm HSU)

[xiao hu yan]

Beng Bu Quan performed by M° Angelo D'Aria

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TORVAmHl6_Q

[xiao hu yan]

i am assuming he is a student of Gm HSU
sorry but what means hsu?

he s disciple of GM Chen Leping

[EarthDragon]

Xiao,
I beleive he was reffering to Adam Hsu when he said GM HSU but then again I could be mistaken.

Adam is not a student of Leping and on the contrary very much older. He did however spend a little time studying under my shifu 's shifu...Master Wei Xiao Tung.
Alot can be found about Adam Hsu on the internet and I suggest you purchase a copy of his book the sword polishers record a must read. God Bless

[CYMac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3bLtAfR9t0&feature=related

I don't know why people all talk about beng bu in seven star mantis, but maybe just a form that got promoted so much in books. Now here is a video of beng bu done by me. Just to share, enjoy!

[mooyingmantis]

I saw this vid earlier. Nicely done! Very similar to how I learned it, though it is missing a few moves at the end of the second road.

[CYMac]

I saw this vid earlier. Nicely done! Very similar to how I learned it, though it is missing a few moves at the end of the second road.

Thank you! It's not missing the movements, maybe just from different versions. I have saw many mantis books and all the masters do it differently too. I have done many and chose the one I like more which flows the best for me.

This is seven star mantis. Just in case you thought it is CCK.. :)

[mooyingmantis]

Thank you! It's not missing the movements, maybe just from different versions. I have saw many mantis books and all the masters do it differently too. I have done many and chose the one I like more which flows the best for me.

This is seven star mantis. Just in case you thought it is CCK.. :)

Yes, I misspoke. I just meant it was missing a few movements as I learned it.
I have also seen MANY versions. Yours does look very smooth.
Yes, I recognized it as Seven Star, probably stemming from Hong Kong. The version I learned was the Northern Praying Mantis (Wong Hon Fan) version.

[CYMac]

Yes, I misspoke. I just meant it was missing a few movements as I learned it.
I have also seen MANY versions. Yours does look very smooth.
Yes, I recognized it as Seven Star, probably stemming from Hong Kong. The version I learned was the Northern Praying Mantis (Wong Hon Fan) version.

Won Hon Fan is very good too as I see his mantis books are nicely postured. The next generation from him, Yuen Man Kai is still alive in hongkong but I don't like his style when I see him perform because it's way too flowery..

I saw your website just now, interesting and cool stuff! Your videos are nice too!

[mooyingmantis]

I saw your website just now, interesting and cool stuff! Your videos are nice too!

Thank you! :)

[Tainan Mantis]

I don't know why people all talk about beng bu in seven star mantis, but maybe just a form that got promoted so much in books.
People talk about beng bu because it is part of the original core of Mantis.
This version is not from any family of Beng Bu I have seen.
Could you tell us where it is from?


Kevin

[CYMac]

People talk about beng bu because it is part of the original core of Mantis.
This version is not from any family of Beng Bu I have seen.
Could you tell us where it is from?

Kevin

how come? even the master above see it and feel familiar, it's seven star praying mantis. Where did you learn yours and do you have a video to show so that I can see what you mean?

[EarthDragon]

we must always remember when doing kuen, to move the body as one.

This is where you get the power generation, formless form and fluidity.
I see many places adn movements where the arms are moving yet the feet are stationary, as wll as the shoulders moving but the hips are not, and to go deeper the external is moving but the internal is not.

Concentrate on having the body in constant continuous motion all the time and you will enjoy your form much better. be well

[mooyingmantis]

how come? even the master above see it and feel familiar, it's seven star praying mantis. Where did you learn yours and do you have a video to show so that I can see what you mean?

For the record, I don't claim to be a "master", but thank you for the compliment.

Yes, I would say your form looks like 99% of the Qixing Tanglangquan (HK) forms that I have seen performed. Though a few moves I am familiar with are missing and a couple are changed.

The way you play the form is also similar to how I have seen it played by many different instructors. Other families of mantis emphasize greater coordination of the body/harmonies. Seven Star out of Hong Kong is often criticized for its more subtle approach. I watched your video again and compared it to videos I have of Al Cheung, Brendan Lai, my instructor and a few others on YouTube. It was comparable to each of those performances.

Revealing who your instructor was/is shouldn't be a big deal though. Most of us on the forum are familiar with each other's background/instructors.

[-N-]

I watched your video again and compared it to videos I have of Al Cheung, Brendan Lai, my instructor and a few others on YouTube. It was comparable to each of those performances.

If you have the Brendan Lai Bung Bo video in mind, I possibly could say that the sequence is very roughly similar, but that's about it.

[taai gihk yahn]

to go deeper the external is moving but the internal is not.

interesting; here is what I stated about his taiji (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PTEtFb5dfM) form:

"I find his movement to be rigid and lacking connection; he is "performing" instead of "living" the movement;"

he, of course, did not agree w my assessment; hopefully your good advice will find it's way through his thick skull...

[mooyingmantis]

If you have the Brendan Lai Bung Bo video in mind, I possibly could say that the sequence is very roughly similar, but that's about it.

Certainly Shifu Lai's speed and power are not present in his video.

[-N-]

Certainly Shifu Lai's speed and power are not present in his video.

I wasn't thinking about that.

More so the details of the motions.

In general, it has the overall sequence of Bung Bo. But the details, connections, and body mechanics are very drastically different, regardless of speed or power.

[Tainan Mantis]

how come? even the master above see it and feel familiar, it's seven star praying mantis. Where did you learn yours and do you have a video to show so that I can see what you mean?

Yes, familiar to 7* of HK, except a few important points are different.
In 2nd road when it comes to waist chop you don't follow HK 7* which is like this:

Yao Zhan (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/images/articles/pre%202009/waist%20chop/luo%20yao%20zhan.jpg)
(from the article The Waist Chop of Mantis Boxing (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/pre%2009/2007/waist%20chop.htm)

After waist chop your version leaves out 6 techniques and substitutes other techniuqes.

I have not posted a video of myself doing beng Bu, but other vids of myself are on this channel.
This is my Shifu performing Lanjie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXfDrPs1CIE)

You are a new poster here, you have put up a bunch of videos of yourself doing Praying Mantis. Your website mentions slogans such as we are the best... and truth revealed....

Praying Mantis kung fu is not a very large family would you tell us who your shifu of Mantis is? Most people who post here are already knwon who they studied with etc,
example, short bio fo my Shifu (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/kevin_brazier.htm)

[CYMac]

My kungfu is MY kungfu. I do it my way which I like it, and I am not a robot. Those who just know how to copy directly become a kungfu-slave or kungfu-copier only. Which means they did not really blend it with them.

All masters in kungfu (in history and now) have their own view on kungfu and do modification to their own style or forms to make it fit them more and so it become their style of kungfu. I am no different from them. As you can see, I teach kungfu but my center core is Tin Yat Lineage. You can see that I only do the other styles for fun and to teach those who like to learn them from me only. Those who want to learn HK style can go to HK, those who like X style can go to X person, but I offer what I show, and those who like it can take it, simple as that.

[EarthDragon]

CY, there is no neeed to get defensive. You are the one who put up videos and asked our opinions. When we gave them to you, you start defending and becoming resentful.

Perhaps you will someday tell us who you learned from....... seems to me it might be from books or videos. There are people on this board who know just about everything from just about every lineage of mantis. take heed to the comments and knowledge.

Seeing as how you live in Toronto and I am right over the bridge, you may want to come vist my school and I can show you a little and correct your movements. Also next sat I am having a IP seminar with Josh walker from Plumb dragon in FLA, surely not to be missed.......

PS can you explian your tag line saying master with only 15 years experience? I'm in 30th year and still consider myself a student

[Iron_Eagle_76]

PS can you explian your tag line saying master with only 15 years experience? I'm in 30th year and still consider myself a student


The only thing this guy is a master of is being a fraud and a few fries short of a happy meal!!

[taai gihk yahn]

PS can you explian your tag line saying master with only 15 years experience

oh, that's very easy:
http://www.chiinnature.com/kungfu_master_bio.html

Mak Jo Si's Kungfu Biography

Learning since the age of eight, and he was talented in all kinds of kungfu but started with the kungfu of Seven Star Praying Mantis and Yang style Taichi. Mak Jo Si have mastered the 108 Taichi form by himself from reading a book in only 3 hours for his first time learning Taichi and he was shocking the people around by his genius kungfu talent!

During his teens, he have learned more lineages for various masters in person such as Hung Gar, Wingchun, Taichi, Mantis and Chi Gung. At his leisure time, he also learn kungfu himself from different sources as well and so he also practiced and learned BaJi, XingYi, BaGwa Jeung, and so on. The learning experience with a real master was horrible because he did not benefit much from them except for the wingchun experience which gave him a chance to proof how close minded the wingchun's master is. They cannot think logically and practical and always called themselves "practical". These masters of age from 38-59s are all closed minded and are not pleasant to be around. They do not practice kungfu themselves everyday and they are actually living in the world of Chinese kungfu novels only and not the real world. All they do is talk and gossip about the fantasize version of kungfu. Mak Jo Si is sick and tired of them and decided to leave them all and practice on his own instead to have the fun.

In 2009, because the kungfu Mak Jo Si learned from the past with all these horrible masters, he got serious injuries all over the body. With his right leg temporary disabled and all kinds of pain and aches around the body and joints, he was not able to do any kungfu at all. He have to stop and terminate his kungfu teaching. That must be the end of his life of kungfu!

No, not at all! During the fall of 2009, Mak Jo Si gained the ability of communicating with the deities and Taoverse Deity take care of him. Taoverse Deity taught him kungfu directly and actually helped him recover from the injuries in the past in a few months! The teachings were way different from the past human being masters, it is very different and very direct. The training is just intense enough to make Mak Jo Si enjoy for the whole day. Everyday, Mak Jo Si go through hundreds of forms, practicing from bare fist forms to weapons, and it's over 100 forms he practice everyday! If you can see, Mak Jo Si then really knows a lot of forms and kungfu! He practice them everyday from morning to late afternoon for the whole year round.

Now he is reducing the load because he have to focus on other things such as business and other subjects to learn from the deities. But it is still very intense and he is non stop working hard on his kungfu as well! If you ever learn from Mak Jo Si, he will teach you anything you want with everything he knows! The best kungfu master ever!

any questions? :rolleyes:

[CYMac]

CY, there is no neeed to get defensive. You are the one who put up videos and asked our opinions. When we gave them to you, you start defending and becoming resentful.

Perhaps you will someday tell us who you learned from....... seems to me it might be from books or videos. There are people on this board who know just about everything from just about every lineage of mantis. take heed to the comments and knowledge.

Seeing as how you live in Toronto and I am right over the bridge, you may want to come vist my school and I can show you a little and correct your movements. Also next sat I am having a IP seminar with Josh walker from Plumb dragon in FLA, surely not to be missed.......

PS can you explian your tag line saying master with only 15 years experience? I'm in 30th year and still consider myself a student

I started Taoism around 4 but I am just a student and following paths. Starting 1996, I started to work as a Taoist and service the public, starting my career helping others to do exorcism and also teaching kungfu in the mean while as my side job. Until today. That's 15 years of experience. (career).

If you judge what I teach, it's up to you, because I never ask you to by my student. If you still consider yourself a student after 30yrs in kungfu, it's because you did not advance and not willing to take the (or not wanting to) responsibility to teach well. If a master don't know his stuff well enough, they always think they are still a student.

Just like adults who grown up, you cannot think you are a kid anymore, you must accept the fact you are a father or an adult. Or else you will never grow up. That's the reality, don't try to be nice all the time. Even if you are a father, you gotta be a father, you cannot still think you are a kid, you got some people to look after you know?

I got students to look after and I take full responsibility of what I teach to them and so I am more than confident to tell you I am a master or a teacher whatever term you like. Master is what I use in my way, and so that's how I typed it.

[CYMac]

The only thing this guy is a master of is being a fraud and a few fries short of a happy meal!!

Don't say I am a fraud, because I am a porcupine. If you wanna say I am a fraud, then you gotta proof it. I do what I do and I service the public with what I have, if you aren't happy or aren't wanting it, just leave. Those who enjoyed our service (like exorcism and other things) do enjoyed them very much as I see it in 15 years. If you are jealous of people, then it's okay.

[JamesC]

Don't say I am a fraud, because I am a porcupine. If you wanna say I am a fraud, then you gotta proof it. I do what I do and I service the public with what I have, if you aren't happy or aren't wanting it, just leave. Those who enjoyed our service (like exorcism and other things) do enjoyed them very much as I see it in 15 years. If you are jealous of people, then it's okay.


You've already proven it yourself. You're a fraud.

[CYMac]

You've already proven it yourself. You're a fraud.

Only those who are jealous will say so. At least none of my clients say this kind of stuff. They know it work by their heart because it worked. You? I don't think you are even qualified to judge anything since you don't even know me. Get lost, eat some porcupine cakes.

[JamesC]

That's called the placebo effect. And it has absolutely nothing to do with you. They believe something will work, and so it does.

It has nothing to do with your crayon drawings you're selling them.

[lkfmdc]

Those who enjoyed our service (like exorcism and other things) do enjoyed them very much



PT Barnum said it "there's a sucker born every minute"

[Hendrik]

we must always remember when doing kuen, to move the body as one.

This is where you get the power generation, formless form and fluidity.
I see many places adn movements where the arms are moving yet the feet are stationary, as wll as the shoulders moving but the hips are not, and to go deeper the external is moving but the internal is not.

Concentrate on having the body in constant continuous motion all the time and you will enjoy your form much better. be well



Excellent points of view.

How do you define external and internal?

[Hendrik]

interesting; here is what I stated about his taiji (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PTEtFb5dfM) form:


"I find his movement to be rigid and lacking connection; he is "performing" instead of "living" the movement;"




What do you mean by

he is "performing" instead of "living" the movement;

[Hendrik]

My kungfu is MY kungfu. I do it my way which I like it, and I am not a robot. Those who just know how to copy directly become a kungfu-slave or kungfu-copier only. Which means they did not really blend it with them.

All masters in kungfu (in history and now) have their own view on kungfu and do modification to their own style or forms to make it fit them more and so it become their style of kungfu. I am no different from them. As you can see, I teach kungfu but my center core is Tin Yat Lineage.

You can see that I only do the other styles for fun and to teach those who like to learn them from me only. Those who want to learn HK style can go to HK, those who like X style can go to X person, but I offer what I show, and those who like it can take it, simple as that.


You have big ambition which is good if it goes in positive direction.

Have you ever think what if

it is you who dont have deep enough basic to achieve the kung fu,

and mysterism and or modification is not going to solve the issue of lack of basic kung fu?

[Hendrik]

During his teens, he have learned more lineages for various masters in person such as Hung Gar, Wingchun, Taichi, Mantis and Chi Gung. At his leisure time, he also learn kungfu himself from different sources as well and so he also practiced and learned BaJi, XingYi, BaGwa Jeung, and so on. The learning experience with a real master was horrible because he did not benefit much from them except for the wingchun experience which gave him a chance to proof how close minded the wingchun's master is. They cannot think logically and practical and always called themselves "practical". These masters of age from 38-59s are all closed minded and are not pleasant to be around. They do not practice kungfu themselves everyday and they are actually living in the world of Chinese kungfu novels only and not the real world. All they do is talk and gossip about the fantasize version of kungfu.

Mak Jo Si is sick and tired of them and decided to leave them all and practice on his own instead to have the fun.


For me, this is just said there are very little TCMA practitioner has mastered their basic.

However, leave the ignorance teacher and start a new way doesnt solve the fundamental issue.

[Hendrik]

it is great to see alots of different points of view here. and that is good because it represent different attainments. with different attainments one sees different views. and lots of views are valid.


For me,

Mark's issues is common and the root of this issue is failing to open up the lower limp ; meaning from waist down to the toes are not smoothly connected.

This is the basic before syncronize the whole body. if that part of the body is not open up then further development is in effective and block.

Thus, it is an issue which is related to the basic instead of the style. different style has different momentum signature, but the basic is the min needs to get the lower limp function properly.


This is one of the biggest issue today. IMHO. I am presenting here intended to solve issue instead of who's view is the highest. and solving issue could comes from different view. I think Earth Dragon gets some goods points. Mark is presenting himself in his environment and condition. so I would say if I am living like him I would probably do the same things.

[CYMac]

You have big ambition which is good if it goes in positive direction.

Have you ever think what if

it is you who dont have deep enough basic to achieve the kung fu,

and mysterism and or modification is not going to solve the issue of lack of basic kung fu?

With years of teaching, facing challenges physically and online, I don't see what you talked about in me. That's what I see. But of course, many challengers don't accept the acceptance and so there is no point to debate.

[taai gihk yahn]

What do you mean by

he is "performing" instead of "living" the movement;

I know what I mean; I suspect you know what I mean; to explain it is already too late...but one can ask, from "where" does the One Movement arise?

[taai gihk yahn]

With years of teaching, facing challenges physically and online

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fLs57LeuX5E/S_a54mE2DLI/AAAAAAAAAwc/orOXa4_umlM/s1600/keyboard+warrior.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Don't say I am a fraud, because I am a porcupine. If you wanna say I am a fraud, then you gotta proof it. I do what I do and I service the public with what I have, if you aren't happy or aren't wanting it, just leave. Those who enjoyed our service (like exorcism and other things) do enjoyed them very much as I see it in 15 years. If you are jealous of people, then it's okay.

I am jealous because as a High Priest Pagan practioner of the ancient method of anal clinch druidism, my wicker man exorcisms have gone to the way side with frauds such as yourself claiming to have "teh real" exorcisms. I challenge you to prove your Taoist Exorcisms can defeat my mighty Pagan rituals. Come on, Chi Boy, put up or shut up. You think you know about exorcisms, you don't know sh**t!!

Dùnan math innearach, màthair na ciste-mine!!!

I'll see your pansy flute and raise you a real instrument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBKBI7DOLHA

Sit on it and twirl you dirty scum!!!!!:mad::mad::rolleyes::rolleyes::):):D:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Don't say I am a fraud, because I am a porcupine.

doesn't this qualify as a reason to lock down a thread?

[Hendrik]

I know what I mean; I suspect you know what I mean; to explain it is already too late...but one can ask, from "where" does the One Movement arise?


I am not asking you know or not.
I am asking you to define your know so that civil discussion can take place.




For me,

I also not buying the " to explain it is already too late.." stuff.

There are to many in the TCMA world who keep preaching " do it 1000x and you will get it" " you know what I mean?" "Zen.... everything is Zen..."

It is simply, one needs to tell others " what exactly one is doing and upto what kind of quality or state one could expect the result to be." Even Zen, it is technology and has steps





TCMA is technology in my opinion, technology is engineering. and every step of engineering must be clearly state. otherwise, there is no quality reproduction.



Thus, Mark's issue could be solved by simply correcting a few points and get rid of his issues once forever. That doesnt involve myter-sism , Dao, Zen, ......etc. But solid points to be corrected and to be train.

[JamesC]

anal clinch druidism

No way!! :eek::eek::eek:

How do I get down on that? I DO work in a jail, afterall. I need all the anal clinch help I can get!

[Hendrik]

With years of teaching, facing challenges physically and online, I don't see what you talked about in me. That's what I see. But of course, many challengers don't accept the acceptance and so there is no point to debate.


if that is what you see. that if fine with me.


however, in my humble opinion, your legs medirians are not open up which cause issues in all of your youtube. with that there is no way one could have advance attainment.

In WCK, one open up these medirians in SLT set, you obviously has not get that far.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not asking you know or not.
I am asking you to define your know so that civil discussion can take place.
ok, just checking - sometimes it's hard to tell with you


I also not buying the " to explain it is already too late.." stuff.
but it is - by the time you explain it, you are out of the experience; not saying this as a cop-out, it's really true - i mean, as you know, I CAN talk about it at length from an anatomical / physiological perspective, but you know, I've done that here so many times, even I start to get bored w the "sound" of my own voice (:eek::eek::eek:); but beyond that, beyond the words, there is the experience; you can label it anyway you want, but the label isn't the experience; I know you know this, this is rudimentary stuff


There are to many in the TCMA world who keep preaching " do it 1000x and you will get it" " you know what I mean?"
yes - do it a 1000x wrong and you will get "it" too, lol;


"Zen.... everything is Zen..."
well, it is, given that CH'an means "suchness" or "things such as they are"; but one can say it w out knowing this


It is simply, one needs to tell others " what exactly one is doing and upto what kind of quality or state one could expect the result to be." Even Zen, it is technology and has steps
true; but one can also "discover" spontaneously on one's own (nature is nature; the potential is there for anyone); for example, my wife studied yoga on her own for years, never had a ful-time teacher; she finally went to take the certification course so she could teach it, and the instructors were blown away by her understanding (she got the highest grade in the class); of course, she read, and had limited interactions w some teachers over the years, but most was her own self-exploration; so it's a "natural" technology", that is "out there", waiting to be found, so to speak...


TCMA is technology in my opinion, technology is engineering. and every step of engineering must be clearly state. otherwise, there is no quality reproduction.
I agree - but, at least in my personal experience, the means by which this particular "technology" can be communicated is less about words, although they are a part, but direct interaction; for example - my push-hands were "stuck"; so I stopped doing it with adults and only with kids (I would do it as part of their PT training, so it actualy benefited them - really - and that got me over the block - and not a word was spoken (well, the kids had fun, they giggled a lot);

point is that unlike engeneering technology that requires exact reproduction everytime, the practice of taiji / qigong, etc., is / should NOT be exactly the same everytime!

[lkfmdc]

Don't say I am a fraud



but you are

and a clown also

[Hendrik]

I would not say your point is not valid, i am saying you need to define your point otherwise no one knows what you are talking about and I dont want to guess.



ok, just checking - sometimes it's hard to tell with you


but it is - by the time you explain it, you are out of the experience; not saying this as a cop-out, it's really true - i mean, as you know, I CAN talk about it at length from an anatomical / physiological perspective, but you know, I've done that here so many times, even I start to get bored w the "sound" of my own voice (:eek::eek::eek:); but beyond that, beyond the words, there is the experience; you can label it anyway you want, but the label isn't the experience; I know you know this, this is rudimentary stuff


yes - do it a 1000x wrong and you will get "it" too, lol;


well, it is, given that CH'an means "suchness" or "things such as they are"; but one can say it w out knowing this


true; but one can also "discover" spontaneously on one's own (nature is nature; the potential is there for anyone); for example, my wife studied yoga on her own for years, never had a teacher; she finally went to take the certification course so she could teach it, and the instructors were blown away by her understanding (she got the highest grade in the class); of course, she read, and had limited interactions w some teachers over the years, but most was her own self-exploration; so it's a "natural" technology", that is "out there", waiting to be found, so to speak...


I agree - but, at least in my personal experience, the means by which this particular "technology" can be communicated is less about words, although they are a part, but direct interaction; for example - my push-hands were "stuck"; so I stopped doing it with adults and only with kids (I would do it as part of their PT training, so it actualy benefited them - really - and that got me over the block - and not a word was spoken (well, the kids had fun, they giggled a lot);

point is that unlike engeneering technology that requires exact reproduction everytime, the practice of taiji / qigong, etc., is / should NOT be exactly the same everytime!

[Hendrik]

but you are

and a clown also

Let's not get into personal.

[lkfmdc]

A guy who has no clue what he is doing trying to sell online kung fu AND who claims to do exorcism because the "dieties" taught him is both a clown and a fraud

Maybe English isn't your first language, but he's an idiot and deserves all the criticism he has received

[taai gihk yahn]

I would not say your point is not valid, i am saying you need to define your point otherwise no one knows what you are talking about and I dont want to guess.

well, i understand what you are saying, and you do make a valid point; and again, typically I'd write up a whole detailed description of what is going on w the breath, the posture, the connective tissue structure in context of tensegrity concept, the fluids, the autonomics, etc., etc., etc.; but lately, I've been in a less pedantic mood , for whatever reason (mayb it's all of the gardening, digging in the earth for a week); so from digging in the earth, carrying bags of mulch, planting veggies, etc., all in context of my personal "practice", the lines blurs, the distinction between "this is practice" / "this is not practice" dissolves, and I am at a loss to re-gell things at the moment; but I do appreciate your perspective and sincere inquiry

[JamesC]

so from digging in the earth, carrying bags of mulch, planting veggies, etc., all in context of my personal "practice", the lines blurs, the distinction between "this is practice" / "this is not practice" dissolves, and I am at a loss to re-gell things at the moment;

I'm with ya there dude. I have the blisters to prove it

[Hendrik]

well, i understand what you are saying, and you do make a valid point; and again, typically I'd write up a whole detailed description of what is going on w the breath, the posture, the connective tissue structure in context of tensegrity concept, the fluids, the autonomics, etc., etc., etc.; but lately, I've been in a less pedantic mood , for whatever reason (mayb it's all of the gardening, digging in the earth for a week); so from digging in the earth, carrying bags of mulch, planting veggies, etc., all in context of my personal "practice", the lines blurs, the distinction between "this is practice" / "this is not practice" dissolves, and I am at a loss to re-gell things at the moment; but I do appreciate your perspective and sincere inquiry


Thanks for the explanation.

What I have seen is that TCMA has reached a point that "What " is not clearly told and up for everyone to define. That is trouble. As lots and lots will say" that is my style " to fuzzy up the "What". or substitute Zen, Dao....Now ... Being...ect for a clear "What". That is also trouble.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by CYMac View Post
Don't say I am a fraud, because I am a porcupine. If you wanna say I am a fraud, then you gotta proof it. I do what I do and I service the public with what I have, if you aren't happy or aren't wanting it, just leave. Those who enjoyed our service (like exorcism and other things) do enjoyed them very much as I see it in 15 years. If you are jealous of people, then it's okay.


I believe you are not a fraud. probably has good heart trying to do the best too with high responsibility feeling.

However, reading your view on religions and spiritual and kungfu cultivation in your website. It is evidentally that you are young, naive, and with tunnel vision. like the world in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDuymwTln7A

I would not like to travel your path because that is a dangerous path. Perhaps I am getting too old.

[taai gihk yahn]

Thanks for the explanation.

What I have seen is that TCMA has reached a point that "What " is not clearly told and up for everyone to define. That is trouble. As lots and lots will say" that is my style " to fuzzy up the "What". or substitute Zen, Dao....Now ... Being...ect for a clear "What". That is also trouble.

this I agree with - anyone can say anything they want - anyone can call what they do Dao, Ch'an, Qi etc. - PERSONALLY I don't typically use any of those terms, because they are "well-defined" within their own methodologies - for example, to do the 100 Days OPening of the Microcosmic Orbit, there is a very specific methodology; I was taught it, I used it, but I don't teach it or really even talk about it, because it's very precise, and I am not into throwing around precise terms without fully understanding them - which is why I use what I know well, the contemporary anatomy/ physiology, etc. - of course, I don't teach this stuff either, when I work with patients on body-mechanics it's not at this level (although I do teach them to "float" their cranium on top of their spine, and sometimes someone is good enough to get the connection to their feet, but that's uncommon); so, again, i think it's ok for someone to have their own personal "way", but they shouldn't pull out a term like "qi" that they don't realy understand to explain what they are doing when they don't know how else to explain it...

[Hendrik]

this I agree with - anyone can say anything they want - anyone can call what they do Dao, Ch'an, Qi etc. - PERSONALLY I don't typically use any of those terms, because they are "well-defined" within their own methodologies - for example, to do the 100 Days OPening of the Microcosmic Orbit, there is a very specific methodology; I was taught it, I used it, but I don't teach it or really even talk about it, because it's very precise, and I am not into throwing around precise terms without fully understanding them - which is why I use what I know well, the contemporary anatomy/ physiology, etc. - of course, I don't teach this stuff either, when I work with patients on body-mechanics it's not at this level (although I do teach them to "float" their cranium on top of their spine, and sometimes someone is good enough to get the connection to their feet, but that's uncommon); so, again, i think it's ok for someone to have their own personal "way", but they shouldn't pull out a term like "qi" that they don't realy understand to explain what they are doing when they don't know how else to explain it...



sure, either we contribute to solution or we contribute to more confusion.

[lkfmdc]

I believe you are not a fraud.



either you are not paying attention or you have poor reading comprehension skills

[Hendrik]

either you are not paying attention or you have poor reading comprehension skills



I give him the freedom of how he wants to live his life.

Like the Eagle cannot tell a Chicken how to live....

For me, Marc is living in the fantasy HK movie
like this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTvcKcRsmF4&feature=related


but then if he is happy and the people around him is happy. I need to accept that.

as for how distance the HK fantasy movie is to reality... that is a totally different question.

[lkfmdc]

i give him the freedom of how he wants to live his life.

Like the eagle cannot tell a chicken how to live....

lame answer

[taai gihk yahn]

either you are not paying attention or you have poor reading comprehension skills

no, actually, i get what he's saying - meaning the CYMac isn't intentionally out to scam people, he sincerely believes in himself and what he's doing (of course, so did several other "colorful characters" during the early to mid-20th century, but I digress);

so he's a looney, but he's a happy looney...

now, about that Legion of Doom photoshop assingment..

[Hendrik]

The true issue here in this Kung Fu forum has surfaced is that

What went wrong that cause the general us including Marc that missed the under waist training basic that cause training problem.

Where in which state of Kung fu training that needs to be focus and taking care of?


I believe Marc has decades of training and internal and external training following different coach. however the issue is why is this important basic missed the attention?

That would be cool to solve this issue.

[Hendrik]

lame answer


There is no point to heck him. Accept him as who he is and a part of this world. let him be who he is. May be he is happy May be he suffers.... we dont know.

[Scott R. Brown]

sniff sniff...........My little Hendrik has finally grown up!

[taai gihk yahn]

sniff sniff...........My little Hendrik has finally grown up!

and it only took a bat-sh1t crazy Taoist Celestial Master Porcupine named Forrest to do it!

hey...maybe this guys HAS got something :eek::eek::eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

and it only took a bat-sh1t crazy Taoist Celestial Master Porcupine named Forrest to do it!

hey...maybe this guys HAS got something :eek::eek::eek:

He's got magic something........but I think they're beans!

And he ate them!

[CYMac]

Come on guys, if you got exposed to the world of magic, you will not say such things. It's not fun when one day you wake up and got all kinds of aches and stuff on your body and you can SEE the other side casting stuff on you in front of their altar and drawing FU (talisman as known in the west) on your portal voodoo doll.. it's not that fun. Don't make fun of magic just in case one day you need the help.

[JamesC]

You are fu(king insane

[Scott R. Brown]

Come on guys, if you got exposed to the world of magic, you will not say such things. It's not fun when one day you wake up and got all kinds of aches and stuff on your body and you can SEE the other side casting stuff on you in front of their altar and drawing FU (talisman as known in the west) on your portal voodoo doll.. it's not that fun. Don't make fun of magic just in case one day you need the help.

Been there and done that even before you were born youngster!

You still don't know what you are talking about!

[CYMac]

haha, really? It seems like you don't know what I am talking about. Anyway, enjoy the porcupine cake. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

haha, really? It seems like you don't know what I am talking about. Anyway, enjoy the porcupine cake. :)

It seems you do not know what I am talking about!

[CYMac]

It seems you do not know what I am talking about!

No, you need to eat this porcupine cake to understand my language, come on, get some into your mouth! stuff it~

[Scott R. Brown]

No, you need to eat this porcupine cake to understand my language, come on, get some into your mouth! stuff it~

Porcupine cakes are merely symbolic, when you act as if the power is in the cake, your magic is of the lower order. In order to comprehend magic of the superior order one must see past the symbol to what lies beneath!

[JamesC]

I've decided that Scott is also fu(king insane. Carry on.

[Scott R. Brown]

I've decided that Scott is also fu(king insane. Carry on.

Yeah......crazy like a Fox!:eek:

If you ever get the chance look up the book, "Crazy Clouds"...

....that's the only hint you'll get!:D

There are serious responsibilities when one is a REAL Taoist Master with 37 years experience!:cool:

[lkfmdc]

You are fu(king insane

no, no,

he is ****ING INSANE

so insane he doesn't even realize those are photoshops

[JamesC]

Okay...how did you do this?

You must teach me sensei! I wish to learn the art of circumventing Gene's filters... :eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

Okay...how did you do this?

You must teach me sensei! I wish to learn the art of circumventing Gene's filters... :eek:

just "quote" his post and all the secrets will be revealed...

[JamesC]

That is impressive. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

That is impressive. :D

Your journey to the dark side is now complete;

and FWIW, you're right on the other thread about engaging the posterior chain vis a vis the ball of foot pivot (I'm a PT, and your kinese is right on)

[JamesC]

Your journey to the dark side is now complete;

and FWIW, you're right on the other thread about engaging the posterior chain vis a vis the ball of foot pivot (I'm a PT, and your kinese is right on)

Thank you sir!

FWIW, I have no medical training of any kind. I'm just kind of a nerd when it comes to the way the body has evolved to move. I get a little passionate when people refuse to use their bodies the way Ma' Nature wants us to. (I.E. people running on their heels) Drives me nuts.

[EarthDragon]

james C, i ran on my heels until I bought a pair of 5 fingers, then my running changed forever, do yuo have pair? there a must for walking running and hiking

[JamesC]

Yeah I do. I bought a pair of KSOs last year and they are my shoes of choice when I have to wear them.

I do all my running barefoot now though

[GeneChing]

The Return of our Publisher's blog. READ Shaolin Ways Episode 3: Praying Mantis (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1447) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/9557_Shandong-lesson.jpg

THREADS:
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)
Beng Bu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?46490)
Shaolin and Praying Mantis (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49167)

[B.Tunks]

The Return of our Publisher's blog. READ Shaolin Ways Episode 3: Praying Mantis (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1447) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/9557_Shandong-lesson.jpg

THREADS:
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)
Beng Bu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?46490)
Shaolin and Praying Mantis (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49167)

Very nice article Gene!

FYI the Qixing Tanglang master you learned from in Yantai was Yu Tianlu, brother of Yu Tiancheng and disciple of Lin Jingshan (who was also the master of Yu Hai, before he created his sports wushu version of Tanglang). Yu Tianlu passed away in 2013. I have some of footage of you guys learning Beng Bu that day, sent to me by Eric. Great to see this pic. Eric was definitely a great guy. As you indicated in the article, he was a mantis nut through and through. Probably the most obsessive and thorough researcher of his day. Very open and generous too. We exchanged lot of material over the years. May he RIP.

Cheers,

BT

[B.Tunks]

Here's Yu Tianlu's Beng Bu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVtlMlqdbX4

[GeneChing]

FYI the Qixing Tanglang master you learned from in Yantai was Yu Tianlu, brother of Yu Tiancheng and disciple of Lin Jingshan (who was also the master of Yu Hai, before he created his sports wushu version of Tanglang).


I was half hoping someone might recognize him here. You've renewed my faith in our forum. :cool:

[B.Tunks]

No worries. Glad to be of assistance!