Next it will be chi sao on the ground

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8

[mantis108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8

Believe it or not, I have actually seen an intelligent and impressive "ground form" from a German Wing Chun exponent.

The Tai Chi "ground fighting" idea for taking push hand to the next level in the link is progressive IMHO. The teacher seems to know a thing or two about ground fighting. It's not easy to just integrate ground fighting into Kung Fu. So I would give A for effort in this case although I don't totally agree with using the push hand mindset in ground fighting. It is basically flirting with disaster to "push hand" on the ground as shown with BJJ if you ask me. Unless of course, your skills out match the opponent 10 times or the opponent has no idea what the ground phase is about.

BTW, Tai Chi technically and ideally would want to throw or almost like "expel" the opponent far away from the exponent. So "in theory", a ground situation could not have happen (that is if you are die hard fundamentalist).


Mantis108

[stricker]

IMO :

- i doubt it will actually work, but, i dont know as im not him... (my guess comes from my own experience of trying similar as well as my experience of groundfighting someone with good chisao with no ground knowledge after i'd had some months proper ground training)

- if he's not rolling with experienced bjj, judo, sambo, wrestling dudes, or competeing with them, he's not doing groundfighting, simple as that.

- a few comments off the youtube page i largely agree with were "it's NOT a technique but ... dare I say feeling applied to all techniques" and "What he is doing (sticking, following), is something done by high level BJJ guys anyways."

- if i was just looking at it from a pure groundwork perspective id say it was rubbish, but i've learnt from the past that you dont know until you feel/experience, so i'll leave it at 'probably rubbish' ;)

[shuaichiao]

:eek: So Sam was getting sticky with another guy on the ground?

[Liddel]

Id certainly need to see him apply this to a resisting opponent.

I understand the concept hes trying to cross over but my initial impression having sparred with grapplers is that it aint gunna be useful.

In the traditional sence, its out of its depth, same for Chi Sao IMO.
In a theoretical sence, as in the strategies it holds (not the theoretical non fighter sence) Chi Sao can be useful, however limited.

As for your inuendo T, Tai Chi Toy Sao and VT Chi Sao are very different beasts IME.

Forget the physical for a moment, and think of the strategy.

Inherent in my Chi Sao training is the idea that if you stick with me, i can stick/grapple with you to create openings / opportunities to bang.

This happens because the top position IME wants to nutralise your ability to attack, and work for submission, hence having taken you down in the first place.

If you dont stick/grapple, posture up and GNP for instance, ill take the openings you give me and bang untill my knuckles are black and blue, if i survive your GNP :rolleyes:

Ive incorparated elements of my Chi Sao training and elements of Larry Gordons BRITISH CQB techniques for use in the bottom position, with results... but it isnt a special answer for everything and it needs other attributes to reinforce it when you meet an opponent that can deal with it, just like everything else in combat.

DREW

[Knifefighter]

The great thing about ground fighting is that you can incorporate it into just about anything you already know.

The caveat is that you have to be relatively proficient in groundfighting principles, tactics, and techniques before you can do this. This guy forgot about that part.

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8

Hahahaha. Those guys are hilarious.

If you want a German Wing Chun practitioner with ground skills, go roll with GM Andreas Hoffman and his guys.

[t_niehoff]

Hahahaha. Those guys are hilarious.

If you want a German Wing Chun practitioner with ground skills, go roll with GM Andreas Hoffman and his guys.

Yes, Andreas is at least a purple belt in BJJ.

[Nick Forrer]

IIRC Andreas is now a black belt in BJJ:)

[UKBBC]

Well, we at the CRCA are already doing double chee sau on the floor, as well as lap sau, slow attacks, straight punch drills amongst many others, using adduction, repulsion, bucking, swiveling and other body mechanics to manipulate the opponent’s centre of gravity and complement our application of Yin/Yang striking/defense theory.

Much of this will be covered in Sifu Randy Williams’ upcoming Biu Jitsu DVD coming out at the end of the month!

[anerlich]

Biu Jitsu DVD

Jeez, now I've seen everything. "Biu Jitsu"! :rolleyes:

[wiz cool c]

Well, we at the CRCA are already doing double chee sau on the floor, as well as lap sau, slow attacks, straight punch drills amongst many others, using adduction, repulsion, bucking, swiveling and other body mechanics to manipulate the opponent’s centre of gravity and complement our application of Yin/Yang striking/defense theory.

Much of this will be covered in Sifu Randy Williams’ upcoming Biu Jitsu DVD coming out at the end of the month!

Randy Williams has a lot of instructional videos. I wonder has this guy ever proven himself in any competition or anything.

[UKBBC]

I am certain Sifu Randy has 'spanked' enough people in his past to satisfy his own curiosities as to the effectiveness of his system in non-competitive environments, and there are most certainly witnesses to more than a few such incidents (not I unfortunately).

Although Sifu has no desire to demonstrate the effectiveness of his teachings in the ring at his age, he does however have a very talented student who enthusiastically and effectively trains in both CRCA wing chun and Gracie BJJ, and he has led his teams to nationally recognized success in many recent tournaments in the US. More details can be found through the CRCA main website (in the directory of US representatives). I guess people will argue which style contributed greater to their successes – BJJ or wing chun, but let’s just say for now, they haven’t stopped studying CRCA wing chun.

Sifu Randy does have many videos; I would remind anyone watching his videos to pay particular attention to his polite and apolitical disclaimer that usually starts off each one, that his teachings are purely an expression of his own knowledge and experience as an effective fighting system, with no implied superiority over any other lineage or style. I for one, having trained in 3 other WC lineages, happily embrace his teachings and his philosophy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Randy Williams has a lot of instructional videos. I wonder has this guy ever proven himself in any competition or anything.

RW has a very excellent reputation, even in the BJJ and MMA world.
He is highly regarded.

[JiuJitsu]

As a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu brown belt myself I would love to grapple that Tai Chi guy, there is no way he would be able to pull off that push hands stuff on a resisting opponent that knows what he is doing on the ground.

The guy he is demonstrating on is as clueless as he is and is giving him the energy he requires and even that isn't helping him much.

[Vyvial]

yeah, I tend to agree with you Jiujitsu but he has an idea which works to a certain extent. His softness and flowing will keep you from getting anything useful on his arms but it would really just delay what's gonna happen in that situation. My Chi Sau really, really helped my sport sambo/judo game, so I like what the guy is doing but it just doesn't seem to be there yet, at least against an experienced mma guy.

My main question is, where does he go from there? yes he can play with the arms but where's the fight finisher? He's teaching self defense so it's not about tapping someone out.

Honestly though, how often to you get into street fights with experienced martial artist? Also his target audience is tai chi people who are not gonna be wrestling mma guys, so really is this instruction a terrible thing?

[JiuJitsu]

Vyvial

The problem is that when passing the guard I won't look to control is hands or arms, so I won't be giving him my arms to chi sau with. I will be looking to control his hip or his head (both if possible).

I take my hat off to the guy for trying and I'm not slamming him for that, but what he should do is get together with a purple belt or higher and see what works and then take it further. If some of the stuff will work on a resisting grappler then that is awesome and he can incorporate that.

[anerlich]

This guy's stuff might work to a point against someone clueless.

A better demonstration would be for him to start from a position where the other guy had him locked down in a tight side control, say with an underhook and crossface, and then escape.

In BJJ, you are taught to deal with worst case scenarios. The guy in the video is hardly doing that.

He doesn't look to be in good enough shape to do 5x5 minute rounds with white and blue belts at a BJJ gym, let alone fight in a cage.

[PangQuan]

IMO:

what this guy is doing is an initialisation process.

you cannot take what you know and apply it effeciently to a different format (ie: stand up to ground, pushands/chisao) without first learning how. we dont learn to walk by running a marathon, and you wont learn to take your stuff to the ground without taking those initial baby steps.

the understanding of process is a major help in this type of situation.

even a teacher is a student, especially when experimenting in unfamiliar or uncharted territory. in other words not being a ground player but learning.


over all i like what i see in this video, AND i agree completely that what his next step should be is to find some experienced ground guys from other styles and play with them. who knows how far he will take this...

On a side note: I have been seeing this type of mindset becoming ever more present in the CMA community, simply through multi media format.

very encouraging. IMO

;)

[Edmund]

you cannot take what you know and apply it effeciently to a different format (ie: stand up to ground, pushands/chisao) without first learning how. we dont learn to walk by running a marathon, and you wont learn to take your stuff to the ground without taking those initial baby steps.




It's stepping the wrong direction though because it's ignoring how someone in your guard would attack. They aren't going to engage you like that. Without some hold on them, pulling them forward onto you, they don't need to push their hands down onto your arms. They're going to sit back and get their posture up so they can get their hands controlling your legs and open your guard.

That teacher's little exercise would probably be MORE applicable after the guy has passed his legs and is trying to get the hold down. He HAS to use his arms then to prevent the guy from getting his weight down on his upper body.



the understanding of process is a major help in this type of situation.

even a teacher is a student, especially when experimenting in unfamiliar or uncharted territory. in other words not being a ground player but learning.


I don't think he's shown a lot of learning though.

[Knifefighter]

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to take what they know in one area and try to apply it to another area in which it is totally inefficient and in which superior methods have already been developed.

It would be like trying to use the groundfighting methods of BJJ when doing takedowns, kicks, or punches while standing... completely stupid.

Every single thing he was doing there was absolutely wrong from a ground fighting persepective.

[cjurakpt]

what I've always found really disturbing was the fact that Masich was able to become a national push hands champion using his style of pushing: he used to do all this really weird bending over backwards stuff to dissolve incoming attacks, kinda like "ultra yin" yielding, which probably worked primarily because the rule structure allowed it - in other words, not Chinese style rules; of course, I could be wrong, maybe he did compete in more realistic venues?

but all this video shows is someone coping a smug "look at what tai chi has that those silly grabber-types don't know about"; this implication is that doing sticking like this will so befuddle an opponent on the ground that they won't know what to do with themselves and you will be able to toy with them at your leisure

what temerity to think that all these years grapplers have been doing their thing and have somehow not hit upon this vastly superior method; doesn't it occur to him that maybe this sort of thing was tried and retried many times and is not used because it doesn't work as well as (or at all) compared to the other things grapplers do on the ground?

and of course, it all works great when your "opponent" is even more cluless than you are and is obviously enjoying helping you prove your point...get this guy on the mat with a collegiate level wrestler or judoka BB and see what happens

[PangQuan]

i dont remember writing that i thought what he was doing was effective. maybe i missed that part of my own post...

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

that is also why i think he needs to try this out on experienced grapplers (something i do remember typing in my previous post)

in so doing he would quickly find out what is BS, and POSSIBLY, be able to salvage some of what he is trying to do and find what would actually be beneficial in a grappling format.

perhaps even .0001% of what he is trying would actually be helpful to a grappler.

there are elements to what this guy is doing that probably could be helpful. IN THE RIGHT TIME AT THE RIGHT PLACE!

but at the same time, i am not a grappler, i merely am liking the fact that this CMA guy, with little ground knowledge is making an effort to get some...or what ever he is trying.

again, back to my thoughts of him needing to roll with experienced players, ones with an open mind of course...

similar to what Wilson did in his MMA match. from his own words most of his ground game is adaptation of what he does standing up....and personally i think he did a decent job in his fight against a really experienced and established bjj player....

but what ever, we may as well never try new stuff huh?

[Knifefighter]

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

Wouldn't it make more sense to learn the ground game first and then see which stuff one would be able to apply?



similar to what Wilson did in his MMA match. from his own words most of his ground game is adaptation of what he does standing up....and personally i think he did a decent job in his fight against a really experienced and established bjj player....

That's precisely why he was owned every time the fight ended up on the ground.

[PangQuan]

Wouldn't it make more sense to learn the ground game first and then see which stuff one would be able to apply?




That's precisely why he was owned every time the fight ended up on the ground.

1: of course that would make sense. i dont deny that one bit.

2: he was only owned once....when he tapped. the rest were failed attempts to make him tap.

[Edmund]

i dont remember writing that i thought what he was doing was effective. maybe i missed that part of my own post...

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

that is also why i think he needs to try this out on experienced grapplers (something i do remember typing in my previous post)


Perhaps BEFORE he teaches this stuff in a seminar.

That's the problem. From what he's showing, he shouldn't be teaching groundfighting. He should be learning some.

Nothing wrong with experimenting but teaching it is something else!

[PangQuan]

i agree with that.

[Liddel]

The practicallity of what he is trying to "sell" to me is reinforced by who he trying to sell it to...

The Text GFX at the top of the clip says he's demonstrating it at an Aikido school for a start.

Aikido although technically sound like many MA's, has very unrealistic training IMO.
So perhaps he is spurred on by a captive audience.

Half of marketing is knowing who to sell your product to :rolleyes:

Second - if you look amoungst the body types of the people trying his tech's out at the end of the clip you'll notice, overweight middle aged women and middle aged men with average fitness. (in appearance )

So all and all, discussing the effectivness of this technique or lack thereof against skilled fit people in a competitive environment is just too far removed IMO.

Also IME Tai Chi Toy Sao is dealing with sticking energy with NO attacks, often called push hands...its just about dealing with redirecting force away from your center. It doesnt contain following up after redirecting that force that Chi Sao contains. :rolleyes: (in terms of punching not pushing ! )

But most of all we know that even though he states you shouldnt "hold on" when on your back, that if he had me or you for instance, raining down elbows and punches he'd bloody well be holding on, or be KTFO... :rolleyes:

[Edmund]

Aikido although technically sound like many MA's, has very unrealistic training IMO.
So perhaps he is spurred on by a captive audience.


Guess he fit right in then.



Second - if you look amoungst the body types of the people trying his tech's out at the end of the clip you'll notice, overweight middle aged women and middle aged men with average fitness. (in appearance )


Ouch that's harsh :)
Fat old people can do martial arts too.

I don't see why they can't learn grappling from someone who knows what they're doing. It's not like there aren't other guys who have learnt taiji or aikido and BJJ. Plenty of guys could tailor a seminar to that audience and really get them started.

I don't think it requires that much fitness to *learn* some decent grappling in a seminar. They wouldn't be able to *compete* against a fitter opponent but at least they learn something.



So all and all, discussing the effectivness of this technique or lack thereof against skilled fit people in a competitive environment is just too far removed IMO.


I think that argument was just a "thought experiment": A polite way to make the point that the guy isn't any good.

[Wayfaring]

2: he was only owned once....when he tapped. the rest were failed attempts to make him tap.

Dude, I want to roll with somebody that does compliant push hands dance skillz like that on the ground. Can I please? Can I?

[PangQuan]

Dude, I want to roll with somebody that does compliant push hands dance skillz like that on the ground. Can I please? Can I?

lol, i bet you would. ;)

except the quote of mine you used was in reference to the fight on this thread.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46280

[tjwingchun]

Just a quick note for what attracted me to this thread "next it will be chi sao on the ground", many years ago I did hear that there was a school that extended its chi gerk or "sticking legs" to do a double sticking legs exercise and it still makes me laugh at the thought of two dead flies with frantic flailing legs, :D

Relating to the first post and the youtube footage, I have done some work with one of my students on groundwork as he had 13 years experience as a Ju Jitsu practitioner before starting his Wing Chun with me, but there is no way I would teach a seminar without first testing it against ground fighters with ability so I am in agreement with many of the posts in this thread, good that he is expanding his training to incorporate groundwork but to sell it you must be able to answer difficult questions and show a level of competance greater than what was on show in the video.

I know my student is planning to combine his knowledge of both and develop training methods and practice routines, but that is his interest and focus of attention while I maintain my focus of specialisation within the broad spectrum of knowledge and understanding that Wing Chun covers.