Is moral/personal development an important part of martial arts for you?

[bodhitree]

I am well aware people can have a good work drive and a lot of talent and have no desire to grow morally. Look at how many professional athletes get in trouble with the law etc.

I also know that in some TMA moral development is stressed with the physical. Is it important to you? In your response I'd like to hear why and what you do to acheive this.

Thanks.

[Becca]

Yes. There's little point to learning a whole system otherwise. I learned all I needed to learn about fighting in grade school. I learned all I needed to learn about fighting with a game plan being married. I learned how to controll my temper in boot camp.

But I learned true self-discipline in the kwoon.

[SPJ]

yes, in the ring or any "honor" fight;

both would be on the same plain field or everything else has to be on equal footing.

you would win by skills or maneuvers or out smart, out maneruver, tactics, strategy etc.

you win fair and square.

in real world, every one fights "dirty".

--

:D

[golden arhat]

i'd say learning morals is something u learn from the world more than martial arts

however i do think its an important part of martial arts as well

not the crux/essence tho as i have seen people describe it

[The Willow Sword]

Moral Developement is very Important in my opinion. It seperates you from the rest of the low lifes out there who all they want to do is kick a$$. When you are learning any martial system where you could potentially kill someone or hurt them worse enough to warrant a trip to the hospital, there has to be some Moral code that you follow in order to govern your emotions. Face it, we get into a confrontation and morality goes out the window and you wind up either biting the dudes crotch,gouging his eyes or you are choking him to the point of unconciousness or even death, OR you are pummeling him so bad that a brain hemmorage sets in. You have to be able to know when to turn the switch off and stop in order to save yourself emotionally. IN the cases of where you absolutely HAVE to defend your life to the point of killing the other person you MUST have a certain amount of Moral fortitude that can help you deal with the fact that you just killed somebody. I think this is how it is truley for the warriors of old who went out in to battle with the notion that they would be killing several or they would get killed as well. I think that the Samurai code explains things the best,the Book of 5 rings. All the subserviant serving your Master stuff that is contained in that book aside, i think there are some really good insights about personal developement as well as Moral.

Peace,TWS

[Samurai Jack]

In our international organization, blackbelts are required to do regular volunteer work as part of thier training. I've heard of a handful of other dojos that do this as well. The idea is to teach and model social responsibility. In ancient japanese culture, warriors were first and formost servants of thier lord. Indeed the word "Samurai" specifically means "one who serves." This requirement is a means of carrying on that tradition in a positive modern context, wherein the budoka serves his or her community.

The other more universal Confucian ethics apply as well, particularly those of filial loyalty and so on. These are reflected in the simple traditions practiced in almost all schools of asian origin I've seen.

Do I think such things are important? Yes. I actually spent years (and years), looking for a school with a serious commitment to such values. It's important enough to keep training for the rest of my life.

[bodhitree]

In our international organization, blackbelts are required to do regular volunteer work as part of thier training. I've heard of a handful of other dojos that do this as well. The idea is to teach and model social responsibility. In ancient japanese culture, warriors were first and formost servants of thier lord. Indeed the word "Samurai" specifically means "one who serves." This requirement is a means of carrying on that tradition in a positive modern context, wherein the budoka serves his or her community.

The other more universal Confucian ethics apply as well, particularly those of filial loyalty and so on. These are reflected in the simple traditions practiced in almost all schools of asian origin I've seen.

Do I think such things are important? Yes. I actually spent years (and years), looking for a school with a serious commitment to such values. It's important enough to keep training for the rest of my life.


You said all this yet you didn't vote?

[BraveMonkey]

I don't know that the school needs to teach morals, but they should run by a firmly established moral code. Teachers should also lead by example, being level headed and showing respect even to those who many not be respectful to them.

My teacher says that he has an obligation to the community not to teach people if he suspects that they are going to use their skills to be thugs or bullies. He notes that it takes many years to master an art, but it doesn't take long to learn enough basic skills to go out and hurt and terrorize innocent people.

I respect that points of veiw. The people that teach or pracitce with in the school are good people and I trust them not to hurt me and they trust me in return (although, of course, accidents happen). That doesn't meant that we're all good friends, but we watch out for each other and, regarldless of how we act out side of the school, we keep our cool and support each other when we are together.

When you spend regular and intense amounts of time acting withing certain moral guidlines, they are bound to rub off and transfer into life outside of the school. That is the moral education I think the MA should provide (and maybe our public schools as well).

[SanHeChuan]

More so the Personal development side and less the Moral side.

On the Personal Development side you learn simply by doing, the more you are exposed to different things within the martial arts the more likely you are to develop things like, Patience, Respect, Self-control, Humility, Good Sportsmanship. These things do not have to be taught, in a lecture type setting, they are simply develop through participation in the Martial arts.


On the Moral side, the good vs evil side, you are less likely to get these organically through participation. You might learn it's wrong to maim and hurt your training partners during practice, but that seems like a bit of a stretch.


Any attempt at artificially teaching either is going to be woefully inadequate. Most schools have some kind of written code, as if by simply reading the rules you'll come to understand the virtues therein. If you did want to teach these things in such a manner successfully, it would require a separate regular class outside of the normal class time. It would involve reading works about the subject, and an open discussion as well are some essays. :eek:

Plus most? adults would feel patronized or worse if someone tried to instruct them on right and wrong un-solicited.

Also nothing, character wise, I learned in the martial arts was new to me. I've only learned to move further down existing lines of thought. I don't know if Martial arts training could reverse an existing held value? :confused:

[BraveMonkey]

More so the Personal development side and less the Moral side.

Also nothing, character wise, I learned in the martial arts was new to me. I've only learned to move further down existing lines of thought. I don't know if Martial arts training could reverse an existing held value? :confused:

Well said. I would agree with this.

[SevenStar]

from the perspective of it being a MARTIAL art, moral value is unnecessary. you are training to learn how to fight. morals can be learned elsewhere, be it parents, religion, etc.

[SevenStar]

I don't know if Martial arts training could reverse an existing held value? :confused:

sure it can. Look what happened to daniel in karate kid 3 - yeah, I know it's a movie, but it could really happen. Look what kreese and silver did to daniel - made him overly aggressive, violent and rash... everything miyagi taught him not to be. In reality, very aggressive training can and does carry over into other aspects of your life. Quite naturally, for some it may carry over greatly, as it did with daniel.

[Samurai Jack]

You said all this yet you didn't vote?

You read all that but you don't know where I stand? :p

I was sleepy. Correction made.

[SanHeChuan]

sure it can. Look what happened to daniel in karate kid 3 - yeah, I know it's a movie, but it could really happen. Look what kreese and silver did to daniel - made him overly aggressive, violent and rash... everything miyagi taught him not to be. In reality, very aggressive training can and does carry over into other aspects of your life. Quite naturally, for some it may carry over greatly, as it did with daniel.

Maybe he was always that way in his heart and it was Mr miyagi's guidance that was holding it in check. :p

This is a tricky subject because we can only truly know our own hearts. That is the only perspective from which I can see in this instance. For me, aggressive training could make me more aggressive tactically, but not so out side the ring. No amount of training short of straight brain washing could make me overly aggressive, violent and rash...

If the Marine Corps couldn't do it I doubt a MA could.

And if I ever did enter into training that was that diametric to my own heart, I'd probably get all butt hurt and leave before I changed my values.

Other people, I don't know, maybe they are less resistant that I, or maybe it was a part of them to begin with that is now seeing the light. Just moving them further down their own existing lines of thought. I don't know. You can't make something out of nothing, but you can build with whats there.

[monkeyfoot]

I think moral/character development is somewhat inevitable.....it comes with the territory

[Becca]

Or a jail sentance. :eek:

Remeber that prominant "master" who ended up in the can for beating up on his estranged wife? :(

[SevenStar]

you think his MA training should have prevented that? what about all of the gangsters and hitmen who trained cma back in the day?

[David Jamieson]

personal ethics and morality will get you a broken nose.

if you can't show courtesy when learning, then you need to be schooled.

[Water Dragon]

There is much correct on this thread. On the one hand, morality is taught outside, not inside the dojo. On the other hand, there is a certain level of respect and courtesy needed to train, and that should be a given.

I've also noticed and competetive school tends to self regulate. For some reason, the *******s never last. I think it has something to do with ego.

[ingchao]

I've quit schools due to lack of moral "Fiber"

Can't seem to get me enough of that fiber...............;)

[Becca]

you think his MA training should have prevented that? what about all of the gangsters and hitmen who trained cma back in the day?
Yes. It takes alot of self-discipline to become a master. Loosing your temper in such a wayis not likely. He had to have made the contious desission to beat her up. That is a lack of morality IMO.

[Black Jack II]

If you find personal deelopment in a school that is great but really personal development comes from anything you tend to add to your life.

Moral development is better found in enviroment you grew up in, your parents and spiritual belief structure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've given up morals for ethical reasons.

[Becca]

If you find personal deelopment in a school that is great but really personal development comes from anything you tend to add to your life.

Moral development is better found in enviroment you grew up in, your parents and spiritual belief structure.

Were do you get it from if you didn't get it growing up, or have discovered that you are not comfortable with the way you were raised? Say your family had a history of drug or alcahole abuse and you came to realize the family values you grew up with were not sound. The kwoon might then be a good place to look for moral guidence.

[Black Jack II]

Sure,

I can see that, I think its not a main case of happenstance. Get your good morals where they can, church, good parents, friends, a mentor, what have you.

But for me, I don't think moral development should be a important factor of martial arts in general, many people take martial arts for many different reasons, so again it's just not what I take martial arts for, but everyone has different milage on why they do things.

Hopefully you got your share of that development first through other sources. If not who cares and get that betterment when you can somewhere on your journey.

[Becca]

I feel matial arts should include some moral training because those who need better morals often don't realize it. And giving people with not-so-good morals the ability to beat the cr@p out of some one is just not something I, or any of my teachers, past and present, would knowingly do. One of the reasons the best schools have such a high turn-over rate is because you either learn it the teacher's way or you go no were. Many of those schools, you go no were if your teacher thinks you might miss use the art he is trying to pass on, as well. This can be seen as moral training, because the teacher does not just give up on the student. He/she trys to work with the student, then the student either gets with the program or quits.

[Mega-Foot]

Yes. It takes alot of self-discipline to become a master. Loosing your temper in such a wayis not likely. He had to have made the contious desission to beat her up. That is a lack of morality IMO.

What if it was his moral duty to beat her up? What if she was so in violation of all ethical boundaries that beating her up was actually to her benefit?

I swear, sometimes I just don't agree with US laws.

[PangQuan]

I voted not important. i did not read any responses.

there is a reason i voted this way however:

regardless of what I choose to do in life, the continual growth of my moral understanding of life, the values i hold dear, the choices i choose to make regarding what i see as right and wrong, these things are aspects of life that will be cultivated regardless of what i do.

i know many people involved in martial arts that have a higher moral standard than many martial artists i know.


if martial arts are with you from a young age, and are a VERY large part of your life, then it is likely as a morally upstanding individual, you would have recieved much of your insight during martial training (has to happen at some point and if you practice 24/7....you get the picture)

This does not dictate that martial arts need to teach morality. Simply that as a good person, you will pick your qualities up where you pick them up.

they may be from martial arts, or they may not.

I was already very developed psyche wise before i got heavily into MA, now i apply my morality to my MA, not the other way around.

[street_fighter]

Im not really sure how important it is to ME, but I have seen martial arts turn around some very "lost" people, including a few friends of mine, and I attribute many of the possitive personality traits I have to MA. For some reason or another it can provide a feeling of purpose and direction to people unlike anything else I have seen.

[PangQuan]

Im not really sure how important it is to ME, but I have seen martial arts turn around some very "lost" people, including a few friends of mine, and I attribute many of the possitive personality traits I have to MA. For some reason or another it can provide a feeling of purpose and direction to people unlike anything else I have seen.

you could replace MA with religion just as easily and this state ment would hold true in millions of cases.

you could also replace MA, or religion with other facets of lifes dedicated avenues...

[street_fighter]

you could replace MA with religion just as easily and this state ment would hold true in millions of cases.

you could also replace MA, or religion with other facets of lifes dedicated avenues...

yeah, probably. but it is indeed a common trend, and should definetly be included among the benefits of ma IMO.

[PangQuan]

yeah, probably. but it is indeed a common trend, and should definetly be included among the benefits of ma IMO.

i most definately agree with that

[Becca]

What if it was his moral duty to beat her up? What if she was so in violation of all ethical boundaries that beating her up was actually to her benefit?

I swear, sometimes I just don't agree with US laws.
He violated a restraining order to get to her, if I remeber correctly. I have to wonder about you, MF, that you would think there could ever be a moral duty to beat up someone who had no way to defend themselfs from physical attach...:confused:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It seems like quite a few people believe that respect (morals/ethics, etc..) are found at "specific" places.. i am happy to see respect being infused at any and every level of life's experiences.. the more it is emphasized, the more likely it is that it will be incorporated into someone's belief system..

Be well..

[5Animals1Path]

I voted important, but not because they should be an obvious part of the curriculum. Honestly, if you've got a good handle on your ego and morals before you go in, you won't need that part of it. If you don't, and you're at any kind of decent school, one of three things will happen.


1. Someone will polietly encourage you towards not being a ********.

2. Someone will straight up tell you to stop being a ********.

3. Someone will grind you into the floor/rug/mats until you understand why being a ******** isn't good.


All in all, the third one shouldn't happen much. I know I had to get a little bit of it from a couple guys I thought I'd be better then cause they were "little."


Did my Sifu ask them to do it? No. Did he discourage it? Hell no.



Some lessons are better learned when you're being shown, not told.

[SunBeam]

The moral impact of MA can be important for some, less for others or still yet unrealted for many more. I'm a much older dude and most of my mind set has been shaped by my parents, family and Faith already. Any endevour that requires time, pratice, effort...etc can effect your outlook and behavior but for me it would be a "bring out" of what's already there. It helps me express who I am and who I want to become. I believe the art exposes your morals so you can enhance, change, or even...ignore them. It's up to you at that point to make the choice but the moral frame work is already there before, at less for me it was.