View Full Version : Guarding the upper body while kicking
I figured I'd start a new one with this.
In most MMA fights, the hands are often dropped while kicking.
This is tactically wrong in my book and leaves you unnecessarily open for high gate counter attacks.
Why is this done and to what advantage? power?
I've never learned to throw any kick w/o keeping my guard up.
Yenhoi, cite the 'thai' round kick and said that if timing and range are correct then guarding is less important. I agree but that could be said for anything.
Why would one not want to maximise your ability to protect the head?
MasterKiller
05-23-2007, 07:28 AM
I see it a lot, and I am guilty of it myself from time to time. It's easier to generate power (for me), but optimally I would prefer to keep my hands up.
Duke Roufus teaching to block:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aQeXHXkL6ow
Vince Soberano dropping his hand:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5h4KDpH5wYQ
cjurakpt
05-23-2007, 09:30 AM
I will never forget seeing one time in a kickboxing match years ago, the guy kept throwing his roundhouse kicks and dropping the same side hand down past his waist, I guess to generate torque - anyway, his opponent must have noticed this because he kind of waited, waited, and after about the 4th or 5th time he had the guy timed, slipped the past the kick to the guy's outside, and hooked him square on the side of the chin from the kicking side; the guy spun around 360 deg. and hit the canvas like a sack of dirt
I have tried to keep my hands up when I kick ever since...
SifuAbel
05-23-2007, 10:54 AM
When people are entrained to just "sit and wait" the attack out instead of countering then its easy to not worry about keeping a guard. Some people fight like ducks in a shooting gallery.
However if you are fighting a person that is all about the counter attack and doesn't just stand there, you better have a guard. That person will not "feign and brace" and wait for impact. That person will move, block , counter, attack and continue moving.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2007, 11:10 AM
All of my kicks are done with the guard up. The drop the guard thing is how TKD teaches to kick, and I think since TKD is the starting point for so many people, it's a habit that stays with later on down the road.
My guess is the method was created to teach people to be a little open so sport competitors have the oppertunity to counter and thus create more excitieng ring fights. Now, today, no one knows that and just followes out of habit and how thier TKD Sensi taught them when they were in Kiddie Karate at age 9.
sanjuro_ronin
05-23-2007, 11:22 AM
If you keep your guard up while kicking you won't get a chance to head butt oncoming counter -punches, where's the fun in that ??
Water Dragon
05-23-2007, 03:15 PM
Moving your arms is very common in kicking. The arm that moves (if you notice, it's always the same side as the kicking leg) serves as a counter weight that oth stabilzes balance, and adds power to the kick. That's the problem. It 'makes sense' to the body to move the arm like that. That's why everyone (myself included) does it.
I got to the point where I wasn't doing for a while, but that's when I was doing Muay Thai. It's a lot easier doing something when you train it regularly. Now, I change my arm movement, and that works for me. I push when I throw a roundhouse, and 'elbow myself in the hip' on a sidekick.
yea, i'm as guilty of the next person of dropping the hands on a kick...i got knocked down in the finals of that sport jj event a few years back because I dropping the kicking leg hand to my hip, he slipped inside the arc of the kick and tagged me good in the jaw. but, I try not to train that way.
My guess is the method was created to teach people to be a little open so sport competitors have the oppertunity to counter and thus create more excitieng ring fights. Now, today, no one knows that and just followes out of habit and how thier TKD Sensi taught them when they were in Kiddie Karate at age 9.
RD, that doesn't make any sense. It's just lazy teaching and lazy training.
I try to keep my kicking leg arm up, low enough to cover ribs w/ elbow and high enough to cover the chin w/ my hand.
stricker
05-23-2007, 04:26 PM
in muay thai they drop the hand thats the same side as the kicking leg. this puts more power in the kick. the difference may be in thai boxing they roll the hip over so your head's out of range.
stricker
05-23-2007, 04:27 PM
My guess is the method was created to teach people to be a little open so sport competitors have the oppertunity to counter and thus create more excitieng ring fights. Now, today, no one knows that and just followes out of habit and how thier TKD Sensi taught them when they were in Kiddie Karate at age 9.wtf??? hahahaha great, teach something that doesnt work because it makes fights more exciting. brilliant why didnt i think of that hahaha
Nick Forrer
05-23-2007, 05:19 PM
The defence to being hit in the head whilst kicking is not being in range in the first place for the counter punch to reach you...if you're in range to be counter punched then generally you are also in range for him to shoot on you without getting a chance to effectively sprawl (since to kick your hips need to be forward) which is why MMA guys dont kick at that closer range.
The time to Kick at that closer range in MMA is when your opponent is huddled up, dazed or otherwise on the backfoot and so cant execute an effective counter strike, but then again in that instance covering the head is not so important anyway
still if its a concern you can cover with the cross hand, leaving the same side hand free to counter balance the rotation of the kick
what about just training to throw good hard kicks with good enough balance that you don't need to drop your hands?
serious question.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2007, 06:48 PM
Moving your arms is very common in kicking. The arm that moves (if you notice, it's always the same side as the kicking leg) serves as a counter weight that oth stabilzes balance, and adds power to the kick. That's the problem. It 'makes sense' to the body to move the arm like that. That's why everyone (myself included) does it.
Reply]
I find I get more power keeping the guard up. I allways felt dropping the arm causes the body to fight itself as part of it is going in the opposite direction as the other part, causeing a drag and inefficiency.
Moving your arms is very common in kicking. The arm that moves (if you notice, it's always the same side as the kicking leg) serves as a counter weight that oth stabilzes balance, and adds power to the kick. That's the problem. It 'makes sense' to the body to move the arm like that. That's why everyone (myself included) does it.
Reply]
I find I get more power keeping the guard up. I allways felt dropping the arm causes the body to fight itself as part of it is going in the opposite direction as the other part, causeing a drag and inefficiency.
to be blunt, that's just not true. there is power to be had from countertwisting the upper body. it's much easier to get the power that way then with just waist coiling w/o the upper body helping. you can get power by using great waist/hip coiling and keeping your guard up but it's not likely to be as great as dropping the hands and counter coiling w/ the upper body. that's why we see it where we do.
me, I don't like getting hit in the head...****es me right off, it does. so, I'll sacrafice a bit of power and inrease my chances of getting ktfo'd
Royal Dragon
05-23-2007, 08:48 PM
If the upper body is going one way, and the lower is going the opposite, these opposing directions cancell eachother out and reduce impacting force.
Sure, dropping the arm makes it *Feel* stronger, because you feel the struggle, but you are not actually *Hitting* as hard.
This is especially true with a side kick, and the round kick.
Once you learn to keep the upper, and lower body connected (like internal guys do), you really see what I am taling about.
SevenStar
05-24-2007, 01:23 AM
in muay thai they drop the hand thats the same side as the kicking leg. this puts more power in the kick. the difference may be in thai boxing they roll the hip over so your head's out of range.
yes. in addition, as the kicking leg arm is dropped, the base leg arm is brought aroundthe face - similar to how a capoeirista does the ginga. one of the most effective counters to a roundhouse is the cross, so you need to protect your face.
SevenStar
05-24-2007, 01:28 AM
Moving your arms is very common in kicking. The arm that moves (if you notice, it's always the same side as the kicking leg) serves as a counter weight that oth stabilzes balance, and adds power to the kick. That's the problem. It 'makes sense' to the body to move the arm like that. That's why everyone (myself included) does it.
Reply]
I find I get more power keeping the guard up. I allways felt dropping the arm causes the body to fight itself as part of it is going in the opposite direction as the other part, causeing a drag and inefficiency.
then you need are doing something wrong - at least from the perspective of a thai roundhouse.
SevenStar
05-24-2007, 01:36 AM
what about just training to throw good hard kicks with good enough balance that you don't need to drop your hands?
serious question.
too much momentum. ever notice how after throwing a hard roundhouse and missing, some muay thai guys spin completely around and some stop at 180 and throw a back kick? it is hard as fock to stop a fully committed roundhouse in mid-kick. that said, you can kick hard with less momentum, but it would still be much more powerful with the momentum added.
I do know a couple of guys who teach not to drop the hands tho.
SevenStar
05-24-2007, 01:43 AM
If the upper body is going one way, and the lower is going the opposite, these opposing directions cancell eachother out and reduce impacting force.
Sure, dropping the arm makes it *Feel* stronger, because you feel the struggle, but you are not actually *Hitting* as hard.
This is especially true with a side kick, and the round kick.
Once you learn to keep the upper, and lower body connected (like internal guys do), you really see what I am taling about.
dude, there is nowhere near as much torque involved in a sidekick - there is no need to drop the hands.
let's assume you are right about keeping the body connected. what happens when you miss?
bodhitree
05-24-2007, 04:25 AM
I was taught from orthodox stace, you throw the roundhouse with the right leg, you can swing your right arm, but bring your left hand in front of your face showing your palm to your opponent to block the cross (a common counter). There are many though. Sometimes your so worried about checking the kick your not even thinking about punching.
yenhoi
05-24-2007, 04:35 AM
Most people drop at least one arm and also leave their head in the same place during the kick, allowing the counters, mainly the cross like 7* said.
Some cage fighters only learn one or two kicks and then always drop the hand(s)
You can safely drop your hand for more power when you have your opponents timing and your range is perfect. People drop their cross to throw the knockout wide-hook all the time. Not always the most defensive technique, but more power.
I agree with oso that a guard should be maintained at all times. Even a weak thai kick can kock people out or sweep a leg.
:eek:
If the upper body is going one way, and the lower is going the opposite, these opposing directions cancell eachother out and reduce impacting force.
Sure, dropping the arm makes it *Feel* stronger, because you feel the struggle, but you are not actually *Hitting* as hard.
This is especially true with a side kick, and the round kick.
Once you learn to keep the upper, and lower body connected (like internal guys do), you really see what I am taling about.
ok, my bad...i'll get back to you when I figure that out....:rolleyes:
too much momentum. ever notice how after throwing a hard roundhouse and missing, some muay thai guys spin completely around and some stop at 180 and throw a back kick? it is hard as fock to stop a fully committed roundhouse in mid-kick. that said, you can kick hard with less momentum, but it would still be much more powerful with the momentum added.
I do know a couple of guys who teach not to drop the hands tho.
i almost always throw the back kick if I've committed that far and will often throw a round kick to set up the back kick so I agree with that.
I've just never focused on trying to ko w/ a head kick, too risky for me. my legs are actually pretty short for a 5'11'' guy with an inseam of just 30.5"
my second teacher taught to drop the kicking leg arm to the inside of the leg to protect the groin while the off hand crossed to the face.
sanjuro_ronin
05-24-2007, 05:21 AM
In old school TKD they taught to bring the arm back and torque that way, without the arm "swinging" out in a typical MT fashion.
First Seminar I did with Chai back in 89 or 90, can't remember, I did this and he said, as best as I can remember " good twist and defense, keep up".
I thought that was nice of him after having elbowed me before that while demoing a move.
TenTigers
05-24-2007, 05:27 AM
I did TKD in mid-seventies and we were taught to keep the hands up. We were also taught to kick from a more upright position so we can immediately follow up with the hands. Then again, we also were taught alot of boxing. I guess, in retrospect, my teacher, Yeon Hee Park, was quite an innovator
sanjuro_ronin
05-24-2007, 05:42 AM
I did TKD in mid-seventies and we were taught to keep the hands up. We were also taught to kick from a more upright position so we can immediately follow up with the hands. Then again, we also were taught alot of boxing. I guess, in retrospect, my teacher, Yeon Hee Park, was quite an innovator
Where you taught to bing the hands in ( guard still up so you are really bringing the elbow(s) in) and torque the upper body on the side of the kicking leg?
MasterKiller
05-24-2007, 06:10 AM
Kicking "upright" gets you punched in the nose. That's why roundhouse and teep are most useful sport kicks because they get your head out of the way.
sanjuro_ronin
05-24-2007, 06:26 AM
Teep ?? what is that?
MasterKiller
05-24-2007, 06:27 AM
front push kick...
sanjuro_ronin
05-24-2007, 07:58 AM
Thank you.
I was hoping it wasn't some exotic prostate stimulation kick...
SevenStar
05-24-2007, 10:26 AM
to be blunt, that's just not true. there is power to be had from countertwisting the upper body. it's much easier to get the power that way then with just waist coiling w/o the upper body helping. you can get power by using great waist/hip coiling and keeping your guard up but it's not likely to be as great as dropping the hands and counter coiling w/ the upper body. that's why we see it where we do.
me, I don't like getting hit in the head...****es me right off, it does. so, I'll sacrafice a bit of power and inrease my chances of getting ktfo'd
instead of swinging the arm downward, swing it outward and level with your face. this way you still get the full effect, plus your arm is in between your opponent and your face.
eww, that just makes me feel wierd :D
I'll just keep my elbows in where they are all comfy and shiat. :)
SifuAbel
05-24-2007, 06:01 PM
To counter rotate or not to counter rotate, that is the question.
It is all about how much turn you get on the supporting foot, whether you are upright or leaning, and how high you are kicking.
Longer and higher extension kicks need pro rotation.
AmanuJRY
05-24-2007, 07:34 PM
Savate trains to keep the guard up while kicking. There are times when one hand is thrown for balance on high kicks, in that case I believe it's more important to be aware of a possible sweep as opposed to an attack at the head. The range at which high kicks are thrown is difficult (but not impossible) for someone to close the gap for a upper level strike.
All in all, I don't use high kicks much (if at all) and I train to maintain my guard. Just a personal goal.:cool:
RisingCrane
05-25-2007, 06:03 AM
Think of a sprinter: Maximum power is gernerated by pulling back the arm on the same side as the striding leg. Try sprinting with the same arm/leg forward and see how much power you generate.:rolleyes: That would be unnatural body mechanics.
Now, whilst fighting, you want to keep your guard as tight as possible, whilst still involving the upper body in generating power. That means the hand on the kicking side 'snatches' down sharply as if having touched something hot. It is a short, explosive twist which balances the kicking force without dropping or pulling back too far. Try it on the bag and you can generate the same power as pulling the arm right back, without sacrificing defence.
sanjuro_ronin
05-25-2007, 06:07 AM
Think of a sprinter: Maximum power is gernerated by pulling back the arm on the same side as the striding leg. Try sprinting with the same arm/leg forward and see how much power you generate.:rolleyes: That would be unnatural body mechanics.
Now, whilst fighting, you want to keep your guard as tight as possible, whilst still involving the upper body in generating power. That means the hand on the kicking side 'snatches' down sharply as if having touched something hot. It is a short, explosive twist which balances the kicking force without dropping or pulling back too far. Try it on the bag and you can generate the same power as pulling the arm right back, without sacrificing defence.
Sounds like what I was describing earlier in "old school TKD".
AmanuJRY
05-25-2007, 08:06 AM
Think of a sprinter: Maximum power is gernerated by pulling back the arm on the same side as the striding leg. Try sprinting with the same arm/leg forward and see how much power you generate.:rolleyes: That would be unnatural body mechanics.
Now, whilst fighting, you want to keep your guard as tight as possible, whilst still involving the upper body in generating power. That means the hand on the kicking side 'snatches' down sharply as if having touched something hot. It is a short, explosive twist which balances the kicking force without dropping or pulling back too far. Try it on the bag and you can generate the same power as pulling the arm right back, without sacrificing defence.
I'm totally willing to sacrifice the little extra power generated by throwing the hand as a counter balance in favor of protecting my dome.;)
stricker
05-25-2007, 03:29 PM
yes. in addition, as the kicking leg arm is dropped, the base leg arm is brought aroundthe face - similar to how a capoeirista does the ginga. one of the most effective counters to a roundhouse is the cross, so you need to protect your face.i thought glove on head cos the counter you cant see coming is the round kick to the head, then move it from there to the face to parry if needed. also another detail is screwing the arm instead of swinging it back/down... in a rush... oh and forgot hand position even more important when teeping!!
stricker
05-25-2007, 03:34 PM
Savate trains to keep the guard up while kicking. There are times when one hand is thrown for balance on high kicks, in that case I believe it's more important to be aware of a possible sweep as opposed to an attack at the head. The range at which high kicks are thrown is difficult (but not impossible) for someone to close the gap for a upper level strike.
All in all, I don't use high kicks much (if at all) and I train to maintain my guard. Just a personal goal.:cool:high kicks can be thrown at close range too.. especially a round thai kick to the head from inside boxing range :eek:
Royal Dragon
05-25-2007, 05:58 PM
Tha would require some sick flexibility!!
AmanuJRY
05-25-2007, 11:16 PM
high kicks can be thrown at close range too.. especially a round thai kick to the head from inside boxing range :eek:
...and they can be countered in that range!:eek:
especially by charging his center while guarding the head and attacking his balance leg all in the same motion, Wing Chun style.:eek::eek::eek:
...or even dropping for a single leg takedown, if you have the timing (critical factor for any of the above).
SevenStar
05-26-2007, 12:43 PM
i thought glove on head cos the counter you cant see coming is the round kick to the head, then move it from there to the face to parry if needed. also another detail is screwing the arm instead of swinging it back/down... in a rush... oh and forgot hand position even more important when teeping!!
yeah but if you keep fist to head, you will be totally unprotected on the kicking side. if you swing the arm around, you have some sort of defense on both sides.
TaichiMantis
05-26-2007, 02:25 PM
high kicks can be thrown at close range too.. especially a round thai kick to the head from inside boxing range :eek:
That's how my sifu used score. His opponents underestimated his ability to throw a kick to the head at close range, all while keeping his guard.
TenTigers
05-27-2007, 01:38 PM
you can get the counter rotaion torque by snapping the elbow/shoulder down yet keeping the hands up.
When I said-upright position, I meant "more" upright, there will always be a slight lean.
Roundhouse Kicks thrown to the head at closer range don't require amazing flexibility-simply changing the position of your hip.More like an angled front kick. Granted, the kick isn't as powerful, but still lands very hard, and is deceptive, as your opponent does not expect a kick from that range.
Water Dragon
05-27-2007, 09:16 PM
yeah but if you keep fist to head, you will be totally unprotected on the kicking side. if you swing the arm around, you have some sort of defense on both sides.
True, but if you're pushing him, you're doing two things simultaneously. First, you're putting him in the prime ramge for the roundhouse, and secondly, he can't mount an effective offense if he's moving away from you. Pushing basically steals his power.
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