JOWGA 5 Tigers Tournament 2007

[Lindley]

There will be Wing Chun Chi Sao competition, as well as Open Continuous Sparring and forms competitions that Wing Chun martial artist can pariticipate in. This announcement is only for those interested in tournament participation.

TOURNAMENT WEBSITE: www.5TigersChampionship.com

[Tom Kagan]

There will be Wing Chun Chi Sao competition, as well as Open Continuous Sparring and forms competitions that Wing Chun martial artist can pariticipate in. This announcement is only for those interested in tournament participation.

TOURNAMENT WEBSITE: www.5TigersChampionship.com


International Wing Chun Chi Sao Competition Rules

OBJECTIVE: To display application of fighting qualities particular to southern short-rang styles, such as “bridging”, i.e., adhering to the opponent’s forearms, while delivering effective attacks and counter-attacks to precise body targets at close range.

Level of Contact

Chi Sao shall be light contact and shall emphasize the control of technique and finesse and not the use of excessive force.
Light Contact is defined as contact that causes no bruising or injury to the opponent and does not move the opponent from a stable stance. Contact to the head should not cause the head towhip.

Excessive Force is defined as anything that is not light contact. For example:

A head strike that result in bleeding, whipping of the head and/or neck, bruising or swelling of the face.
Unreasonable force to the body, for example, a kick that moves an opponent from a stable or rooted stance.



(emphasis mine)




Regardless of anyone's opinion of ChiSao as a competitive activity, if these are the rules and this stuff catches on strongly to the point of influencing the curriculum in the MoKwoon, there may very well be no hope for the future.

:rolleyes:

[CFT]

So if someone deliberately moves from their stance then the opponent loses? I think they need to revise their rules!

[AmanuJRY]

International Wing Chun Chi Sao Competition Rules

OBJECTIVE: To display application of fighting qualities particular to southern short-rang styles, such as “bridging”, i.e., adhering to the opponent’s forearms, while delivering effective attacks and counter-attacks to precise body targets at close range.

Level of Contact

Chi Sao shall be light contact and shall emphasize the control of technique and finesse and not the use of excessive force.
Light Contact is defined as contact that causes no bruising or injury to the opponent and does not move the opponent from a stable stance. Contact to the head should not cause the head towhip.

Excessive Force is defined as anything that is not light contact. For example:

A head strike that result in bleeding, whipping of the head and/or neck, bruising or swelling of the face.
Unreasonable force to the body, for example, a kick that moves an opponent from a stable or rooted stance.



(emphasis mine)




Regardless of anyone's opinion of ChiSao as a competitive activity, if these are the rules and this stuff catches on strongly to the point of influencing the curriculum in the MoKwoon, there may very well be no hope for the future.

:rolleyes:

I agree.:(

There are several techniques that I know would move a person from a 'stable stance' (providing timing, etc. are right) with out bruising or hurting the person.

[Liddel]

I guess it would be from thier POV of what a stable stance is.... controlled moving...

A good Lop or any action breaking the opponents bridge could result in having to move ones horse :rolleyes:

From what i read, i tend to like the idea they allow kicks in Chi Sao, as many schools ive visited in my area dont consider this an aspect of Chi Sao more Gor and Lux Sao components. (if ive read right ?)

[Lindley]

Everyone,

Don't get too caught up into the posted rules. I believe these are shown mostly for Insurance reasons. I say this because we generally discuss there how it is going to go and it seems to get better with more experience. With more participation, we have been able to adjust the tournament so that more skill can be demonstrated. I am usually a judge and moving someone is definitely par for the course. We are going to work hard on eliminating just "point scoring" and have the competitors show true "chi sao" ability - which includes control of the centerline, balance, overall sticking ability, and "legal" strikes (by legal means no cheap or ineffective shots). Sifu Derek Johnson (who runs the tournament) and Sifu Shannon Moore (who leads the Wing Chun) welcome more Sifu's and competitors to help make this event better.

[5Animals1Path]

I couldn't help but chuckle a bit at that too. Kicks aside, footwork should definetly be involved in chi sau. Disengaging the entire lower body amounts to exactly the jokes everyone makes about wing chun.

[Tom Kagan]

Lindley, I know you persoanlly. I definitely have full trust you'll do your best to cajole the organization to run it properly.



I couldn't help but chuckle a bit at that too. Kicks aside, footwork should definetly be involved in chi sau. Disengaging the entire lower body amounts to exactly the jokes everyone makes about wing chun.


While I don't disagree with you, kicks and footwork isn't the point I was trying to make.

My point is simple: The ability to unbalance someone cuts right to the very essence of ChiSao. If you strike someone and they don't move, your strike was essentially worthless.

To codify not being able to unbalance someone (especially via a strike) right into the rules - like it's a good thing - is just mind boggling.

[Matrix]

My point is simple: The ability to unbalance someone cuts right to the very essence of ChiSao. If you strike someone and they don't move, your strike was essentially worthless.

To codify not being able to unbalance someone (especially via a strike) right into the rules - like it's a good thing - is just mind boggling.Tom,
I think you are right on the mark in both points. I'm not a fan of chi sao competitions in any case (it appears to be an oxymoron), but if you insist on having them they need to demonstate something other than then the shoving match they tend to devolve into. At least that's how I see it.

Peace,
Bill

[Tom Kagan]

Tom,
I think you are right on the mark in both points. I'm not a fan of chi sao competitions in any case (it appears to be an oxymoron), but if you insist on having them they need to demonstate something other than then the shoving match they tend to devolve into. At least that's how I see it.

Peace,
Bill

ChiSao mutating into pseudo-sumo instead of devolving into something which ultimately resembles my kids playing Bang! Bang! You're Dead! is infinitely more useful and practical in the grand scheme of fighting skills.



Bang! Bang! You're Dead! is played like this:

"Got you!" - "Did not!" - "Did Too!" - "Did not!" - "Did Too!" - "Uh huh!" - "Uh uh!" - "DAD! He won't play right!" - "Are so!" - "Are not!" - "She's the one cheating!" - "Am not" - "Are so!"




Sheesh. Where's my Tylenol?

:rolleyes:

[Matrix]

ChiSao mutating into pseudo-sumo instead of devolving into something which ultimately resembles my kids playing Bang! Bang! You're Dead! is infinitely more useful and practical in the grand scheme of fighting skills.
I agree with the exception that I might say Moderately more useful, rather than infinitely, but I'm nit picking here. :)
I think these things give Wing Chun the bad rap we often hear about.

[Tai-Lik]

Everyone,

I say this because we generally discuss there how it is going to go and it seems to get better with more experience. With more participation, we have been able to adjust the tournament so that more skill can be demonstrated.

This is true.

Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)

[Tai-Lik]

Is there one set of rules that all or most Wing Chun Sifus agree on, which could be used in competitions?

The rules we currently use were provided to our tournament as standard Chi Sao competition rules. Your advice here would be appreciated in order to improve the rules for the benefit of Chi Sao competitors.

The Wing Chun Sifus who have attended our tournament in the past have done a fantastic job running this division.


Respectfully,
Tai lik (Derek Johnson)

[Tom Kagan]

Is there one set of rules that all or most Wing Chun Sifus agree on, which could be used in competitions?

The rules we currently use were provided to our tournament as standard Chi Sao competition rules. Your advice here would be appreciated in order to improve the rules for the benefit of Chi Sao competitors.

The Wing Chun Sifus who have attended our tournament in the past have done a fantastic job running this division.


Respectfully,
Tai lik (Derek Johnson)


Regardless of people's opinions on whether ChiSao competitions are a good idea, creating a competition out of it is a formidable task. It's already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other. And, therein lies the problem.

Truthfully, ChiSao is not a very good vehicle to showcase characteristics of what good is Ving Tsun training. To be a showcase of the style, you would need to create a competition which has a clearer "winner" and "loser" when the skill levels and weight classess were evenly matched. This way, the result would be evident to most who look at a match objectively.

Off the top of my head:

- two concentric circles, one two feet in diameter, the other five feet.
- opponents start standing on the inner circle with hands touching in "JongSao".
- dispense with the "rolling" requirement.
- clean strikes which knock down the opponent wins.
- striking/unbalacing opponent so his/her two feet are outside outer ring while you remain inside of center ring wins.
- occupying the inner ring for 25 seconds solely via throwing strikes at opponent is a win.
- two clean throws where the opponent lands on his/her back wins

- No kicking allowed unless one opponent controls the inner ring.
- Pushing or grappling opponent out of outer ring counts for nothing.
- Sacrifice throws count for nothing.
- Any grabs must conclude with a throw or strike attempt within 3 seconds and release.


...
...


If this is beginning to sound like a SanShou match, it should. That's the proper forum to showcase the result of Ving Tsun training, IMO. Still, I'm trying to give it a flavor and some quirks where training of the attributes/skills emphasized in Ving Tsun could be showcased more clearly and without creating too many "bad habits" in fighting.




I suppose another alternative would be to make "barstool" ChiSao into a competition where the first person to be unbalanced via strikes and forced to take a step would lose. (Shifting is allowed.)

[YungChun]

If person A moves person B then how do you determine if person B's stance was "stable"? LOL

Too confusing, how about no touch chi sao? :rolleyes:

I would think/hope that this venue is the exception and that most push hand and chi sao competitions do allow or encourage balance stealing and energy issuing..

Otherwise, I agree its like a fishing contest where you earn points for nibbles but are disqualified if you actually catch something...

[Tai-Lik]

Thanks for your comments and advice. First i should say that cooperation and participation in our chi sao division appears to be good. we've never had any problems and competitors continue to return each year. last year's division attracted alot of attention in the gym. I think because of the excitement of the chi sao competitors and the obvious sense of brotherhood amongst them.

we are aware of the difficulties of running chi sao divisions in competitions. As Tom mentioned "It's already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other." Believe me, i've seen and heard the arguments from several of my Wing Chun friends. I've met Wing Chun Sifus who are for chi sao divisions and others who are not.

As you may have noticed, Chi Sao divisions are included in most tournaments around U.S. & europe. Even at the time when kung fu was being considered for the 2008 olympics, there was gossip about chi sao being presented as a division along with tai chi push hands. my point is that tournament promoters are continuing to promote Chi Sao Divisions because competitors are signing up for this division and that some people find it a necessary division.
We will continue to promote this division as long as chi sao competitors continue to show up as they have during the previous competitions.

By having this division we are recognizing Wing Chun and the unique skill of Chi Sao. i'm not a chi sao expert so i must defer to those who are experts in this field.
i'm definitely not here to debate whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao.

Bottom line is that we want to do the right thing. I know that we can't please everyone, but your advice and comments have been interesting and appreciated.

respectfully
Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)

[Lindley]

I think I will echo Tai Liks request and pose the question:

If you accepted to being the lead of the Wing Chun division at a tournament and ideally could do what YOU wanted for a Chi Sao competition, like (Sisuk) Tom Kagan, what would you like to see and what rules would you promote? Keeping in mind the insurance legalities.

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for your comments and advice. First i should say that cooperation and participation in our chi sao division appears to be good. we've never had any problems and competitors continue to return each year. last year's division attracted alot of attention in the gym. I think because of the excitement of the chi sao competitors and the obvious sense of brotherhood amongst them.


I don't think the issue is whether or not chi sao competitions are popular -- lots of things are popular. Although, my view is this popularity isn't a good thing for WCK (as a martial art).



we are aware of the difficulties of running chi sao divisions in competitions. As Tom mentioned "It's already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other." Believe me, i've seen and heard the arguments from several of my Wing Chun friends. I've met Wing Chun Sifus who are for chi sao divisions and others who are not.

As you may have noticed, Chi Sao divisions are included in most tournaments around U.S. & europe. Even at the time when kung fu was being considered for the 2008 olympics, there was gossip about chi sao being presented as a division along with tai chi push hands. my point is that tournament promoters are continuing to promote Chi Sao Divisions because competitors are signing up for this division and that some people find it a necessary division.
We will continue to promote this division as long as chi sao competitors continue to show up as they have during the previous competitions.


So as long as people want to participate in silly things, you will offer them silly things? Yeah, that does seem to be the TCMA motto.



By having this division we are recognizing Wing Chun and the unique skill of Chi Sao. i'm not a chi sao expert so i must defer to those who are experts in this field.
i'm definitely not here to debate whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao.


Chi sao isn't a "unique skill" -- it is a WCK exercise/drill. And while you may not be here to "whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao", you might just want to think about those things before you promote something so silly. I've got an idea, why not hold SNT form competitions? Dan chi sao competitions? Lop sao competitions? Wall bag striking competitions? Chi gung competitions? Wooden dummy competitions? And give a prize to who has the "best" WCK uniform too!



Bottom line is that we want to do the right thing. I know that we can't please everyone, but your advice and comments have been interesting and appreciated.

respectfully
Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)

If you are really concerned with doing the right thing, then do the right thing: stop promoting these silly competitions -- and begin treating WCK as a martial art. Boxers don't have heavy bag competitions, focus mitt competitions, jumping rope competitions, etc. -- that would be silly. As silly as WCK having chi sao competitions. The usefulness and value in those things are not in their performance in themselves, but in whether and how they promote development in the fighting (boxing) skill. These competitions make a mockery of WCK as a martial art.

[JPinAZ]

What I find is REALLY 'silly' is when people view chi sau as ONLY a training drill... as if it's similar to hitting heavy bags, skipping rope, training the focus mitts, etc..

That's a very narrow and limited view in my opinion, and probably stems from lack of experience/knowledge in WC and/or chi sau.
Plain and simple - WC is for fighting. It's bridging platform called Chis Sau is for fighting, as is any other part of a fighting art. I think it can be used in a competition event, similar to how sparring is used in boxing. But to compare 'chi sau' to boxing is quite silly in itself. One of the big differences with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario), the inital starting position, facing and ranges are fixed (but they don't remain there once the 'fight starts', to do this would be silly). And, with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario) you're starting with contact and focusing on bridging strategies. Boxing doesn't focus on bridging much, and does not really focus on touch sensitivity nor sticking. Yeah, but these are really just 'silly things'...:rolleyes:
Might as well just give up WC alltogether and just focus on MMA...

[t_niehoff]

What I find is REALLY 'silly' is when people view chi sau as ONLY a training drill... as if it's similar to hitting heavy bags, skipping rope, training the focus mitts, etc..

That's a very narrow and limited view in my opinion, and probably stems from lack of experience/knowledge in WC and/or chi sau.


Just the opposite.



Plain and simple - WC is for fighting.


Agreed.



It's bridging platform called Chis Sau is for fighting, as is any other part of a fighting art.


There is an easy way to prove your assertion: show us. Show us anyone who can do what they do in chi sao in actual fighting against anyone outside of WCK with decent-level fighting skills. In other words, evidence to back up your opinion.

Of course, no evidence will be forthcoming as there is no evidence to support your opinion. Just theoretical "teachings".



I think it can be used in a competition event, similar to how sparring is used in boxing.


No. When you spar you are boxing. You move, behave, act, do the same things in sparring as you do in fighting (or in a match). In other words, sparring is fighting. Chi sao is not fighting. Chi sao is a nonrealistic exercise. How well someone can play an unrealistic exercise is ultimately meaningless.



But to compare 'chi sau' to boxing is quite silly in itself. One of the big differences with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario), the inital starting position, facing and ranges are fixed (but they don't remain there once the 'fight starts', to do this would be silly). And, with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario) you're starting with contact and focusing on bridging strategies. Boxing doesn't focus on bridging much, and does not really focus on touch sensitivity nor sticking. Yeah, but these are really just 'silly things'...:rolleyes:
Might as well just give up WC alltogether and just focus on MMA...

You miss the point: in boxing and WCK (or any martial art) we have drills and their purpose is not in developing great "skill" in performing the drill, but using the drill to develop fighting skill. The value of the drill can only be determined in how well it devlops fighting skill. Any drill, no matter how well you can do it, is not useful unless it develops fighting skills. So, for example, a person could be "great" at chi sao, but if they had poor fighting skills, it would mean the drill wasn't really serving them. Same as in boxing: a person could look great on the focus mitts but if they couldn't "box" (spar), it would mean that the drill, or how they did it, didn't give them good results. How meaningful is it, then, that they had great focus mitt skills?

The only way to tell if one's chi sao is "good" -- that they are getting good results from how they perform the drill -- is to actually look at the results that exercise or drill is "meant" to develop -- those particular fighting skills. And you can't evaluate fighting skills outside of the context of fighting itself.

[Tai-Lik]

T_ Niehoff, obviously you have strong views and opinions regarding chi sau competitions, but i don't think you represent the entire Wing Chun community;)

T_Niehoff: "
So as long as people want to participate in silly things, you will offer them silly things?"

Man that's a silly question.

T_Niehoff:
Chi sao isn't a "unique skill" -- it is a WCK exercise/drill. And while you may not be here to "whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao", you might just want to think about those things before you promote something so silly.

The definition of "unique skill" is subjective. i am here looking for respectful and productive input that's all so slow down. :)

T_niehoff:
If you are really concerned with doing the right thing, then do the right thing: stop promoting these silly competitions

Thanks for the advice, but this comment should be directed more at the Wing Chun Sifus who support chi sau competitions and not the promoters who have good intentions. you should also address the many competitors who are attending these competitions. Keep in mind that we did consult wing chun teachers before introducing this division and that the rules for this division were provided to our tournament by Wing Chun teachers. The difference here is that our tournament is simply looking for advice to improve this division.

Respectfully;)
Tai lik

[Matrix]

T_ Niehoff, obviously you have strong views and opinions regarding chi sau competitions, but i don't think you represent the entire Wing Chun community;)Tai Lik,
Terence definitely does not represent the entire WC community, but I would feel safe in saying that no one does. Our "community" seems to be split up into factions. :rolleyes:

While I have been know to be at the other side of the spectrum from Terence on other issues, I can say that I largely agree with his POV in this case. That being said, everyone has the right to promote and participate in these events as they see fit, just don't ask us for advice on how to do it.

Peace,
Bill

[AmanuJRY]

As long as opinions are being thrown....:rolleyes:

I, personally believe chi sau competitions as a waste of time (unless there is prize money involved). I would much rather test my skills in a more realistic environment.

Question; When you win a chi sau tournament, what does it mean?

You're a good fighter?

or you're just good at an exercise?

[Tai-Lik]

As long as opinions are being thrown....:rolleyes:

I, personally believe chi sau competitions as a waste of time (unless there is prize money involved). I would much rather test my skills in a more realistic environment.

Question; When you win a chi sau tournament, what does it mean?

You're a good fighter?

or you're just good at an exercise?


Thanks for your opinion:)

[monji112000]

coming from someone who did the Chi sao even last year...

It was fun and I am very happy I did it. I don't have the time or $$ to come for the 5 tigers again (from Norfolk), but I will be going to Wong (Its nothing personal I enjoyed your tournament also.. its really about time and money only. )
Its a good learning experience and I personally would drop any ego about competitions. Yah EVERYONE knows they prove nothing. The rules are standard, and don't expect it to follow how your school per say does or grades Chi Sao.
The reality is everyone does Chi Sao differently, and it takes a great deal of skill to show and do many of techniques and skills on a unwilling opponent.(this is why 95% of the time these events don't “look” so hot). That is why I enjoy doing these things, it really makes more of a challenge.
I hope to go next year.
Just follow the rules, and try to improve, learn, and maybe pull off a technique or two.
What does it prove if you do well... nothing. What does it prove if you sit on a high horse and dog something that could easily be used a learning tool? nothing.

I would like to stress that if you are skilled, you should be more than capable of doing Chi Sao and pulling off many techniques and theories. Even when they aren't trying to Chi Sao... Redirecting is redirection, sticking is sticking. It just shows how much you really know and can do. Chi Sao isn't a easy thing, too many people think they are “masters”. I firmly believe we need less masters and more students.

JMO

[Matrix]

I firmly believe we need less masters and more students.No problem there. The thing is a student who really studies the art should at a certain point question what is being said, not just blindly follow. If you are saying that only "masters" should have an opinion, then we may as well shut the forum down.
I'm pleased that your experience with these competitions has been a positive one. More power to you. I just reserve the right to have a different point of view. In my opinion, chi sao is not about trying to "pull off a technique or two". If you want to test your skill, then fight.

In response to Justin's question, I don't think "being good" at chi sao is much of goal. If you focus too much on the exercise itself you've missed the point, IMO.

[Tom Kagan]

Well, considering I am the only one who attempted to give some semblance of advice to shape the competition beyond 'NOOOOOOO!!!!! DON'T DO IT!", I'm kind of wondering how the 'ChiSao competion' portion of this tournament went this year.

Lindley, Tai-Lik,


I don't suppose you could share your thoughts? Any video?

[couch]

Tai Lik,
Terence definitely does not represent the entire WC community, but I would feel safe in saying that no one does. Our "community" seems to be split up into factions. :rolleyes:

Peace,
Bill

I think we get along quite well, considering.

:)

[5Animals1Path]

Well, considering I am the only one who attempted to give some semblance of advice to shape the competition beyond 'NOOOOOOO!!!!! DON'T DO IT!", I'm kind of wondering how the 'ChiSao competion' portion of this tournament went this year.

Lindley, Tai-Lik,


I don't suppose you could share your thoughts? Any video?

I left before it started, but supposedly there was only one competitor, from a Moy Yat school funnily enough.