Wing Chun Dummy Arms

[r4cy]

I've noticed that some practitioners, prefer using the dummy with the arms leveled to the same height, while others insist on putting one arm higher than the other, does anybody knows, why one arm is higher than the other?

[VingDragon]

i don't know if i can explain you so well but it's simple woodworking solution - you cannot cross two arms in the same spot inside the dummy. its just impossible. that's why upper arms are cutted unsymetric. only lower arm is even in all sides
when you put these two upper arms into dummy body correctly, then they are/should be in the same horizontal line. most people dont know that and they put them as you said: one higher, one lower

:)

[Liddel]

IMO there are both kinds of dummies out there, level and staggered. Although the woodworking point sounds logical so im not sure bout the level dummies but i have seen them.

Other arts use the Mook Jong as a training tool also.

Whatever your reasons for which one YOU prefer, it was explained to me that the formal VT wooden dummy (of my sifu's era, late 1950's) had the staggered arms because most VT students were right handed and having the left dummy arm higher means training for certain actions like Bong Sao become harder for your least dominant hand.

With enough practice - in effect, closing the co ordination gap between your right and left hands.

Just one THEORY :)

[VingDragon]

Just one THEORY :)

it might be true, but... why we do practise forms in exactly same way/level for both arms??

[Matrix]

it might be true, but... why we do practise forms in exactly same way/level for both arms??While it is an interesting issue, IMO, it's really a non-issue. It's just a piece of wood! We should remember that we play the dummy and to not let the dummy play us. :)
Peace,
Bill

[Liddel]

it might be true, but... why we do practise forms in exactly same way/level for both arms??

Interesting :rolleyes:

First off - when applying the Bong Sao to the dummy with staggered arms, the end position or touch point is pretty much the same (meaning almost level) for both sides.

The height of the left dummy arm only effects the Path of your Bong Sao.
Meaning your path has to be more accurate when applying your left Bong to the inside of the right arm of the Dummy. Why ?

If your not accurate with your left Bong, the left dummy arm will touch or come into play, disrupting the fluidity of the action.

This is not true of the right side as there is simply more room to move.

Second - The protractor effect.
When doing the forms you do not have an opponent (tall, short, fat, skinny,) to give you a reference for applying actions, blocking or attacking.

So instead we use the center line and/or a lot of schools even use mirrors, or for the old school a pole in the ground as a reference for outside influence i.e an opponent ;)

The center line, the mirror or pole :p, create reference points for which you apply your actions, hence the actions for each respective sides in the forms generally have the same characteristics, or are applied the same.

But the forms are only a guide (not set in stone) for height and position relative to your body right ?

What i mean is, in CK my Dai Bong (lower Bong Sao) is the same height on both the left and right when i apply it. It covers the same area on my body.

When i do the forms im seeing in my minds eye an attack comming for that area and apply my Dai Bong. But that doesnt mean thats the exact area my Dai Bong goes to in fighting. Why ?

The opponent might attack a few inches lower or higher depending on thier intention and my Dai Bong can and must adapt to that comming action or id be forced to use something else to protect myself.

This mindset can be applied to any action in VT IMO.

So in short, the answer to your question IMO is the Protractor effect. :)

[Matrix]

This mindset can be applied to any action in VT IMO.Liddel,
Not only can it be applied to any action in VT, I think it should be.
Nice post. :cool:

[VingDragon]

we play the dummy and to not let the dummy play us. :)
yes, and that's why the wooden dummy arms are adjustable - you can even put a leg into arm hole and play it if you want, but you have to know how and why you doing that, am I right? :)

[r4cy]

So I guess practice devices such as the dummy are held to the interpretation of each practitioner right? That would make more sense than just arguing about how the arms should be placed. If each practitioner understands why the arms or whatever are placed where and why.. I guess it would work just fine for that specific individual.

[Phil Redmond]

I've noticed that some practitioners, prefer using the dummy with the arms leveled to the same height, while others insist on putting one arm higher than the other, does anybody knows, why one arm is higher than the other?

I wanted to site a source outside ot TWC though I knew about this fact years before I even knew of TWC.
http://www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
". . . .Yip Man taught the two people version when there wasn't a wooden dummy yet. The Cheung brothers built the first wooden dummy for Yip man".

William Cheung's brother, Cheung King Kong got the plans for Yip Man's first Hong Kong dummy from YM. Before that YM taught Hong Jong (empty jong) in the air or with a partner. In the original plans the arms were level just like the hand movement in all the from are performed at the same level on both sides in order to cover the proper gates.
PR

[Liddel]

So I guess practice devices such as the dummy are held to the interpretation of each practitioner right?

Of course, for instance... some have said to me that the dummy cannot train reactions. Now IMO the dummy is all about reactions.

When i appraoach the dummy in my minds eye im facing against an opponent and i picture this opponent giving me attacks in which i have to react by engaging the dummy.
So each view of the dummy i would say is correct depending on your POV.

I think about forms in the same way, im not just doing actions like a dance all by myself. Im reacting to an imaginary opponent in some sence, using my mind. :D

Gm Ip used both types of dummies, and i know Sifu Lok used a dummy with staggered arms.
Different strokes for different folks.No right or wrong.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/YipMan_Wdummy.jpg
http://www.wingchun.com.au/img/about_yipman.jpg
http://www.taokwoon.com/taokwoon/jpegs/ym-jong.jpg



That would make more sense than just arguing about how the arms should be placed.

Damm, im in an argument again :rolleyes: ? i though i was just discussing my POV after a ligitimate question was asked by VingDragon ?

We can have conflicting views r4cy, and not be arguing :cool:

[Matrix]

................... but you have to know how and why you doing that, am I right? :)Derek,
Yes, I agree, the how's and why's are more important than the piece of wood. :)

[Matrix]

So I guess practice devices such as the dummy are held to the interpretation of each practitioner right? That's the way I see it. Otherwise you become rigid like the wood. I also think Liddel has the right approach. Of course, in the beginning it's good to learn the form in its standard way, whatever that means to your kwoon, and then you can add you personal interpretations to it afterwards.

[mykaratestore]

I didn't know Wing Chun Dummies were such a new training method. Does anyone know how far back Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar dummies go? Do they have staggered arms?
(Sorry if this is a little off the main topic)