Xiao Hong Quan Application Question

[xcakid]

In Xiao Hong Quan there is a movement where the left hand encircle the head then punch as you step forward. Then the right hand encircles the head, steps fwd and does a double punch.

As an example, it is done here on this video at right around 0:23 seconds.
Xiao Hong Quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pccG7wtB-7U)

Can anyone tell me the application, purpose, philosiphy behind this movement?

Thanks in advance.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

The movements in the video are similar to movements found in the first Crane form that is taught in Fee Man Ong's Kwan Ying Do system. The application can be interprted as an overhead block that flows into a forward strike, or as a defense against a hair (queue) grab. Of course, I am sure there are probably many other applications. I have no idea how it is interpreted by those who teach the Xiao Hong Quan form.

Richard A. Tolson

[xcakid]

.....or as a defense against a hair (queue) grab..... Richard A. Tolson

OK I can see that. Hair grab seems to be more plausible since the movement encircles the entire head. Thx.

Would like to hear more theories. :cool: Anyone, anyone....Bueller.....anyone.

[Jingwu Man]

the way my sigong learnt it at shaolin, it was a throw.
You grab the lead arm of the opponent sink and put your legs behind your opponent push your shoulder into his hip/stomach pulll on the arm and lift him up onto your shoulders and over. Devestating throw, but tough on the back/legs if you don't do it properly.

It's better than this but it's the best I could find.
at the 1:43 mark- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF4VbwaKjcU

[xcakid]

Talk about hidden application :eek: I woulda never figured a throw for that. Cool thx.

[luohan]

this movement is called
yun2 ding3 chong quan2 云 顶 冲 拳 - cloud top (like clouds covering the top/head - def) thrust punch followed by
yun2 ding3 qi1 xing1 云 顶 七 星 - cloud top seven star

i was taught that after the defence above the head, the palm of the hand turns down in a conch form,protecting the side of the head(putting the hand very close to the head and protecting of a lateral attack) followed by your punch/attack

[Royal Dragon]

I always just saw it as a cover form an in comming hit. I wish the Youtube clip of the app was not removed. Do you have another clip that shows it?

[wutangforever]

My sifu told me it was to counter someone grabbing your hair, and in doing so you pull the opponent slightly closer to you to have a more effective punch.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i take it as slap to the face
another slap to the face
punch punch
=D

[Sal Canzonieri]

In Xiao Hong Quan there is a movement where the left hand encircle the head then punch as you step forward. Then the right hand encircles the head, steps fwd and does a double punch.

As an example, it is done here on this video at right around 0:23 seconds.
Xiao Hong Quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pccG7wtB-7U)

Can anyone tell me the application, purpose, philosiphy behind this movement?

Thanks in advance.

Sigh. Have someone grab your wrists, close your eyes just so you don't get distracted, and then do the movements EXACTLY as done in the form.

You will see what the application is.

[Royal Dragon]

Thanks Sal YOU Da Man!!

Ever think about doing a commercial applications video on all these corner stone Shaolin sets?

[The Xia]

Sigh. Have someone grab your wrists, close your eyes just so you don't get distracted, and then do the movements EXACTLY as done in the form.

You will see what the application is.
I sigh at that application! :p
When is the last time someone has grabbed both of your wrists (or tried to) in a serious fight? I can’t imagine that the above application is all there is to it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I sigh at that application! :p
When is the last time someone has grabbed both of your wrists (or tried to) in a serious fight? I can’t imagine that the above application is all there is to it.

Doing it that way is meant to point out the chin na (joint lock) movements in the postures. Once you can see it, you can go from there to other applications. Once you can see it as a chin na movement, THEN you can also apply it as a fast ward off against two fast incoming attacks and making an opening so that you can stomp in to their instep and do a Xing Yi like heart punch. but there are many details to this that you can't see right away unless you practice it and then transfer what you learn from Chin na to striking.
It is even a takedown throw in application.

Of course there are more applications, there always are, but all old Shaolin stuff is really based on being grabbed and the resultant chin na that is done then.
They didn't act like the KF movies and go punching and kicking.
Old Shaolin is based on being ambushed and in a sudden self defense situation, they didn't square off and "fight" someone.
I've done over 30 years of research on TCMA. You have to know the CONTEXT that these ancient sets were developed in (when, where, why)

Most people really don't understand what applications even really are.
There is no such thing as a set pattern of applications.
Applications are a CONCEPT, if you are well versed in the foundations of a style and memorized the movements in a set, then there are endless applications for each posture, especially because ALL TCMA movements are simultaneously offense and defense. They are made so you cannot lose in an ambush.

How to I explain all this, no offense meant to you personally - just speaking in general, without winding up teaching people.
If someone wants to learn how to apply the moves in their TCMA, I am totally willing to get together.

[Lucas]

The movement directly before the one you are talking about I was taught as a throw (the movement directly after the whip), this also leads you to have your arms somewhat extended before going into the movements in question.

When I asked about this movements, my sifu did grab my wrists as well as my hair and had me continue. was interesting.

also;

as the left arm starts to circle the head, i was also shown the right hand to a groin strike (ridge hand style), as well I was shown the first strike from the left hand can also be done as a second groin strike instead of an initial thrust strike.

I like the right hand coming up into a groin strike personally, and I always invision that when i perform that section. though I am partial to the left being a straight punch rather than a second groin strike. (which requires you to drop your left to your waist rather than keeping it ready and going for the nose/throat/solarplexus strike)

but chin na is peppered through out the entire set

But like Sal said, context is everything.

[xcakid]

Gotta love kung fu forms. Tons of application from just one movement. :D

[Lucas]

Gotta love kung fu forms. Tons of application from just one movement. :D

No kidding. I was astounded when I first started learning applications, as to how many of them are throws and take downs.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There is a set up and follow through in this posture that is the SAME idea as done in Xing Yi - Wood / Bang.

One punch is slicing in above the incoming attack and when makes contact acts to push back to person, then with a sudden stomp in, the other punch comes in and totals the attacker.

Its done the same way in XY.

Why? Cause around the 1600s, the founder of XY visited Shaolin and they exchanged information. Either he got it from them or they got it from him.

Also, where the movement ORIGINALLY comes from, further back, is from Wudang Taoist martial arts.
The movement is called 7 Star, which is the Big Dipper, it is the shape that you are in when doing final posture.
Taoist sets had been doing this 7 Star movement long before.

There is also a 7 Star posture that is famous in Preying Mantis style, but they it is different thing.

7 Star is the check mark shape, which is the shape of the 7 stars constellation in space (big dipper).

[Sal Canzonieri]

No kidding. I was astounded when I first started learning applications, as to how many of them are throws and take downs.

Indeed, and that is because the movements in these forms were used for sudden self defense, when ambushed or if you dropped your weapon.

Shaolin movements weren't used for sports-like one on one fighting like platform fights (as seen in Fearless, etc., etc.). In fact, they were sometimes considered "cheating".

[Lucas]

Is it just me, or do Shaolin sets have an obsession with protecting the groin? :D

Its like every movement has groin protection intertwined within it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is it just me, or do Shaolin sets have an obsession with protecting the groin? :D

Its like every movement has groin protection intertwined within it.

The other application is that they are leg lifts, I use that, works perfectly, the opponent doesn't even see it as you step in.

[Royal Dragon]

I wish I lived near you!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I wish I lived near you!

I'm willing to go out and do seminars on TCMA and how the forms are meant to be done.
If people can get something organized and have enough people there to be worthwhile.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, I may have a place to hold a seminar...it's getting the numbers that would be the hard part.

[Lucas]

I'm down. the only problem being that I live on the west coast.

If this were something arranged with a good amount of notice, i may be able to swing it. (time off work and all that)

Since I left my old school (due to contemp. wushu required studies ) i have no one to work my shaolin material with. I work my xiaohong and dahong regularly, but only have chen taiji people to work with. I am still fairly new to that school, so i havent even tried to broach the subject.

[Royal Dragon]

I work my xiaohong and dahong regularly, but only have chen taiji people to work with. I am still fairly new to that school, so i havent even tried to broach the subject.

Reply]
Chen Taiji is just Sung dynasty era Shaolin done internally. Once you get to push hands, you can start working in applications from your Shaolin and they should be none the wiser.

Xiao Hong and Da Hong are part of the same group of sets that came from Zhao Kuang Yin. Pretty much all Taji Quan is built on that system. Chen style just enlarges the circles a bit, and exaggerates the Fajin a little. That is the only difference I can see.

If you look close, you will start to see many of the your Xiao Hong and Da Hong techniques are in the Chen sets. They are used the same way too, just softer in appearance (Which I am told was the original way to do them anyway)

[4u2nv]

In Xiao Hong Quan there is a movement where the left hand encircle the head then punch as you step forward. Then the right hand encircles the head, steps fwd and does a double punch.

As an example, it is done here on this video at right around 0:23 seconds.
Xiao Hong Quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pccG7wtB-7U)

Can anyone tell me the application, purpose, philosiphy behind this movement?

Thanks in advance.
guess its hard to learn forms from videos huh:eek:
you dont get all the answer.
ask your sifu

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Too many sifus don't know much more than the pattern.....

[Lucas]

I work my xiaohong and dahong regularly, but only have chen taiji people to work with. I am still fairly new to that school, so i havent even tried to broach the subject.

Reply]
Chen Taiji is just Sung dynasty era Shaolin done internally. Once you get to push hands, you can start working in applications from your Shaolin and they should be none the wiser.

Xiao Hong and Da Hong are part of the same group of sets that came from Zhao Kuang Yin. Pretty much all Taji Quan is built on that system. Chen style just enlarges the circles a bit, and exaggerates the Fajin a little. That is the only difference I can see.

If you look close, you will start to see many of the your Xiao Hong and Da Hong techniques are in the Chen sets. They are used the same way too, just softer in appearance (Which I am told was the original way to do them anyway)

hey thanks for the lesson.

actually now that you mention it....i just thought it was the whole 'so many movements are similar thing' but i have noticed some striking resemblances in the chen long form i am learning atm, compared to my shaolin material.

[Royal Dragon]

i just thought it was the whole 'so many movements are similar thing'

Reply]
Nope, there is a direct evolutionary relationship. The Emperor Sung Tai Tzu taught his mix of Tong Bei & Hong Quan to Shaolin....it got spread all throughout the area, and became Chen and Zhao Bao Taiji Quan...which all the other modern day Taiji came from.

The Shaolin Hong forms are what Sung Tai Tzu personally taught, or were developed direct from his teachings (there is a Monkey set too, but I have not been able to look at it closely yet). Lao Hong was direct transmission, Xiao Hong and Da Hong were developed from his material later.

Start looking closely at your sets, all the lights will start going on. :)

[Lucas]

Its funny, tonight in class we were working the mechanics for a throw for a while.

Once I was at home and going over what we did tonight in class and just doing my own thing, I realized we were working the technique right after the second whip (left oblique/hammerfist)in xiao hong. lol