Hardcore strength training going mainstream?

[SevenStar]

I saw Rocky Balboa this weekend. I had no desire to see it in the theater, but I am a fan of the rocky movies (half of them, anyway) so I rented it to at least see what it was about. The training scenes impressed me. Rocky's trainer said he was too old and had too many problems for things like long runs and lots of sparring, so he wanted him to just build as much strength as possible - and had him doing squats, oly lifts, kettlebell work, etc. I wonder if we'll start to see more and more of this in the forefront.

[mickey]

Greetings SevenStar,

Check out the training sequences in Rocky IV. This was long before Furey, Pavel, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wSkGQHL_9M


The theme for that paticular training sequence was different: Hi Technology vs Spartan training. I think the real missing link in martial arts training has been powerlifting (aka: Sifu John Allen was right).

mickey

[Black Jack II]

Honestly I doubt it man,

Hardcore weightlifting seems to be one of those things that transcends martial arts. It's either a you enjoy it kinda thing or you don't as its a whole study on its own.

[mickey]

Hi Black Jack II,

There is also that nostalgia aspect to the stuff SevenStar mentions that seems to be combined with the urge to pull some of the older methods into the 21st century before they are lost: the need to hold on to the past because of uncertainty about the future.


mickey

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you know what i think is funny .... no where in 3 montages did i see a bench press. im not hatin on the bench, but i think there's a reason for that. yet whats the first question ****tards ask you?

[Justinrohrman]

Theres no benchpress in his training because it dosent really result in stronger punches. I have a much more developed lifting background than a martial one, but the bench dosent do much for a properly thrown punch.

-and your right, that is the 1st thing momo's will ask you about...never to show off my stances :mad::p

[Samurai Jack]

I'm just honest with people. I get comments once in awhile because I look pretty muscular to non-gym rats. I tell them, "I don't bench." Usually thier jaw drops, and they mumble something about "... coach (my dad, my brother etc.) says..." And I just smile and repeat, "Well, I don't believe that. I don't bench."

Don't get me wrong, the Bench Press is a good lift. I just don't think it's necessary, because it dosen't mimic any natural movements. If for some reason I couldn't clean and press, military press, push press, or dip, then I'd bench. Only then.

[SevenStar]

from the standpoint of striking, bench pressing is unnecessary. now, if you grapple, it has its benefits.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hard core ST has been in the MA for ages, look at Okinwawan Goju.

Strength is an important factor in every MA, to deny that is silly, and as such should be developed.
How is really up to the person.
Not everyone likes powerlifting or even working with weights.
Luckily there is so much variety right now that if you don't find soemthign you like its because you are not looking.

I only do ST once a week, as I use it only to supplement my MA, and even then I still DL and Squat over 350lbs at 170 BW.

It doesn't take much or consume that much time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

from the standpoint of striking, bench pressing is unnecessary. now, if you grapple, it has its benefits.

Perfer weighted Dips myself, but you are correct.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

from the standpoint of striking, bench pressing is unnecessary. now, if you grapple, it has its benefits.

i agree. this is a post i made on benching on another forum a few months ago:


i love benching, but i think that it serves you a little less in real world strength than a strong squat or pull. having gotten better at these 2 lifts i find moving furniture, carrying groceries, even pulling big weeds out of the yard to be far easier than it used to be. im not sure bench has as much carry over. it does to some degree dont get me wrong ... its helped me a lot in jiujitsu to create space or when walking a refirgerator into place, but i just dont see it to be as benificial outside the gym as the other 2 lifts or even the olys. i bench because i love benching, but i dont see why so many people are bench obssessed even at the expense of their other lifts. then again im still a noob benching under 250lbs and havent recently been stuck under anything heavy so maybe i just havent been privy to the benifits of the big bench.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Perfer weighted Dips myself, but you are correct.

both great, but dont work the same muscle groups in the same way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

both great, but dont work the same muscle groups in the same way.

Don't really care about "muscle groups", don't do bodybuilding.
The big boys of ST have always been:

Squats
DL
Weighted Chins
Weighted dips
Overhead presses

BP was a add-on after the fact, do em if you like em.

[Royal Dragon]

Theres no benchpress in his training because it dosent really result in stronger punches.

from the standpoint of striking, bench pressing is unnecessary. now, if you grapple, it has its benefits.

Reply]
Ok,I know I ama bit ignorant here, but a punch starts close to the body, and extends out. a bench press is a loaded motion that starts close to the body, and moves out.

How can this not be bennificial to punching hard?

If you want to argue that a dumbell bench helps punching more than a barbell, I will agree, but to say it does not help at all or very little? That just does not make sense to me.

Yes, i understand the whole mechancis issue, but the arm is an imprtant link in punching mechanic. I would think loading the muscle groups that move the arm forward & away from the body with a Bench press will more than help a punch...which does the same thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Theres no benchpress in his training because it dosent really result in stronger punches.

from the standpoint of striking, bench pressing is unnecessary. now, if you grapple, it has its benefits.

Reply]
Ok,I know I ama bit ignorant here, but a punch starts close to the body, and extends out. a bench press is a loaded motion that starts close to the body, and moves out.

How can this not be bennificial to punching hard?

If you want to argue that a dumbell bench helps punching more than a barbell, I will agree, but to say it does not help at all or very little? That just does not make sense to me.

Yes, i understand the whole mechancis issue, but the arm is an imprtant link in punching mechanic. I would think loading the muscle groups that move the arm forward & away from the body with a Bench press will more than help a punch...which does the same thing.

The BP is beneficial in strengthing the punching muscles, much like doing push-ups is beneficial in helping with the muscular endurance of the muscles involved in punching.
Will that make you a better puncher? and "harder" puncher? Nope, not as much as working on your punches, obviously, but it will help the muscles involved.
Much like doing squats won't let you break the 10 second barrier in the 100 MT, but it will help strengthen the muscles so you can TRY.

[WinterPalm]

In punching, your arm has to have stability and the ability to withstand the trauma of punching a hard target. In that sense it needs strength. However, a punch is thrown with the legs, hips, waist, torso twisting action with the arm as a loose appendage with a rock on the end of a rope sort of thing. BP will make you better at push-punching, but that is about it.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know. Common sense says that developing strength anywhere along the chain will improve punching power.

Now, if you had one guy working on mechanics, and another benching, the guy doing mechanics will be hitting harder...but a third guy doing both will hit the hardest.

You really can't look at this in sections. A punch is a whole body activity, and you really can't neglect any portion of that system. Benching develops a key segment of that whole body chain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I saw Rocky Balboa this weekend. I had no desire to see it in the theater, but I am a fan of the rocky movies (half of them, anyway) so I rented it to at least see what it was about. The training scenes impressed me. Rocky's trainer said he was too old and had too many problems for things like long runs and lots of sparring, so he wanted him to just build as much strength as possible - and had him doing squats, oly lifts, kettlebell work, etc. I wonder if we'll start to see more and more of this in the forefront.


the other thing here is that, pure Strength training takes less out of your joints, repetition wise, than other training.
As you get older, repetitive motion damage becomes an issue to your joints, especially shoulders and knees.
The high weight BUT low rep scheme of typical pure ST actually stresses out your joints LESS because of the low level of repetitive movement.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Don't really care about "muscle groups", don't do bodybuilding.
The big boys of ST have always been:

Squats
DL
Weighted Chins
Weighted dips
Overhead presses

BP was a add-on after the fact, do em if you like em.

the two movements generate power in different ways. working different "muscle groups" should not be a concern of bodybuilders only. benching works the lats pressing power in a way that i dont think weighted dips can match. im not saying the bench is superior, but i also cant say that the difference between the two is a bodybuilding difference.

also to my knowledge bench was in the very beginnings of powerlifting in different forms. floor presses and such.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I don't know. Common sense says that developing strength anywhere along the chain will improve punching power.

Now, if you had one guy working on mechanics, and another benching, the guy doing mechanics will be hitting harder...but a third guy doing both will hit the hardest.

You really can't look at this in sections. A punch is a whole body activity, and you really can't neglect any portion of that system. Benching develops a key segment of that whole body chain.

yeah but you dont punch slow with maximal effort. i hear what your getting at, but i think the oly lifts would be more likely to have carry over than benching. the movements are explosive.

[Samurai Jack]

You really can't look at this in sections. A punch is a whole body activity, and you really can't neglect any portion of that system.

I didn't read the replies if any to this, but you just hit on why benching dosen't do much for your punching; The Bench Press may be a multi-joint activity, but it really only engages the shoulders and elbow joints... Olympic Lifts and big Powerlifting movements from the ground such as Deadlift, Clean and Jerk, Push Press, and Clean and Press teach you to utilize the chain seamlessly in the exact order required for a punch, albiet with slightly diffrent mechanics in the shoulder.

Additionally, it's darned hard to lift explosively in the Bench Press, and not very safe at all. I've seen guys trying for plyometric BP before with the spotter almost catching the thrown weight, but very few people do this, and it's REALLY hard on the very joints you are hoping to train. The consequences of your spotter missing the catch also makes the very notion of this exercise almost absurd.

Then of course there is the final nail in the coffin for BP versus OLY lifts; the fact is that the pectoral muscles engage very little when you are throwing a punch. In fact over flexing the pecs actually causes a loss of power when you throw a punch, just as it would cause a loss of power if you threw a baseball that way. Mechanically the pectoral muscle is only engaged to bring the arm across the body by a fraction of an inch (if that). Any more than that and you are putting the brakes on yourself.

There are better exercises for athletes and MA.

[Samurai Jack]

This also makes me think of the so-called "balance" that I hear bodybuilders harping on so often. If the best way to get a big muscular chest is by Bench Pressing, but a big muscular chest is really only good for BPing, then does a big muscular chest really equal a balanced physique?

I look at Gorillas, Orangutans, and Chimpanzes, the strongest most naturally muscular primates in the world, and I see thick ropey arms, defined quads, ripped backs, and muscular, but small pectoral muscles.

I wonder where this notion of "balance" versus "imbalance" comes from? It dosen't seem to relate to the actual methods of practically using strength and power. It seems to be asthetic.

Any thoughts?

[SevenStar]

bodybuilding is all about aesthetics. thick ropey arms, defined quads, broad shoulders and a caved in chest isn't good, visually. Also, I mentioned before, pushing muscles come in handy while grappling, likely why wrestlers (or at least we did) hundreds of pushups, even though there wasn't much bench pressing.

to the general public, the defining characteristics of a manly man are broad shoulders, big biceps and a chiseled chest - one that you can see through your shirt. Those are the things that really stand out to people. while working at the club, I can't count the number of women who squeeze my arms and touch my chest. Likewise, guys will comment on how they wish they had broad shoulders like mine. I have huge legs, but it is more rare for those to get commented on. the women love a nice chest. it is just aesthetically appealing. To have everything except that kills the look.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bodybuilding is all about aesthetics. thick ropey arms, defined quads, broad shoulders and a caved in chest isn't good, visually. Also, I mentioned before, pushing muscles come in handy while grappling, likely why wrestlers (or at least we did) hundreds of pushups, even though there wasn't much bench pressing.

to the general public, the defining characteristics of a manly man are broad shoulders, big biceps and a chiseled chest - one that you can see through your shirt. Those are the things that really stand out to people. while working at the club, I can't count the number of women who squeeze my arms and touch my chest. Likewise, guys will comment on how they wish they had broad shoulders like mine. I have huge legs, but it is more rare for those to get commented on. the women love a nice chest. it is just aesthetically appealing. To have everything except that kills the look.

Amazing how different cultures view what is aesthetic and pleasing.

[Becca]

benching works the lats pressing power in a way that i dont think weighted dips can match. im not saying the bench is superior, but i also cant say that the difference between the two is a bodybuilding difference.
I don't bench, but if it works the lats, then it most certainly would benifit a martial artist. Where do alot of body kicks hit? The lats. Building the lats up is the first step in being able to take repeated hits/kicks there.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it most certainly works the lats if done with an arch in a powerlifting fashon. a lot of bodybuilders bench this way as well, but some will go flat backed and intentionally take the lats out of the equation to isolate the pecs more which is fine for their sport. it's certainly not the most direct way to work the lats, but in my opinion very few other exercises can work their pushing power to this degree except for maybe pushing cars/other heavy things. while i love dips, and you'll use the lats to do heavy dips as well, i dont think they hit the lats with the same intensity. i could be wrong .... does andrew, seven, iron, or ford have an opinion?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Weighted chins work the lats better than BP, at best they are used as stabalizers during the BP.

[SevenStar]

Weighted chins work the lats better than BP, at best they are used as stabalizers during the BP.

chins definitely, but initially, you said dips...

[SevenStar]

Amazing how different cultures view what is aesthetic and pleasing.

this is true.

[SevenStar]

I don't bench, but if it works the lats, then it most certainly would benifit a martial artist. Where do alot of body kicks hit? The lats. Building the lats up is the first step in being able to take repeated hits/kicks there.

you get kicked in the lats a lot? with my elbows down, I don't. the obliques, but not the lats. kicks to the arm just bounce off of my shoulder, they don't hit my back / lats, and I don't turn into them, which would allow them to. Now, if you are in a completely sideways stance then yeah, I can see the lats getting hit a lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chins definitely, but initially, you said dips...

I don't recall saying do dips for lat work...

I recall mentioning :

squats
Dl
Weighted chins and dips
Overhead press.

Pretty straight forward which ones work the back muscles.

[Becca]

you get kicked in the lats a lot? with my elbows down, I don't. the obliques, but not the lats. kicks to the arm just bounce off of my shoulder, they don't hit my back / lats, and I don't turn into them, which would allow them to. Now, if you are in a completely sideways stance then yeah, I can see the lats getting hit a lot.

I'm short and I do usually offer my side in hopes they might just get a glancing blow. Side kicks get me just under and behind my armpits. And I don't put my elbows down; I prefer to take hits in a muscle rather than in a joint. And if they're slow recoiling, my arm is free to trap the leg. :cool:

[SevenStar]

I don't recall saying do dips for lat work...

I recall mentioning :

squats
Dl
Weighted chins and dips
Overhead press.

Pretty straight forward which ones work the back muscles.

I coulda sworn I saw a post saying that - I think GDA did too, which is why he's talking about it...

[SevenStar]

I'm short and I do usually offer my side in hopes they might just get a glancing blow. Side kicks get me just under and behind my armpits. And I don't put my elbows down; I prefer to take hits in a muscle rather than in a joint. And if they're slow recoiling, my arm is free to trap the leg. :cool:

for people who kick with the instep, the elbow down can give them fits. As for catching a kick, it's easier for me to circle either away from or into the kick and catch it under my arm (roundhouse) or to shuffle back and scoop it (teep and side kick), as opposed to letting it hit me then trying to catch it before he re-chambers / sets his leg down.

[Becca]

for people who kick with the instep, the elbow down can give them fits.
Awch!:eek: Never thought of it that way. I might have to remember that the next time we spar shoes-off. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I coulda sworn I saw a post saying that - I think GDA did too, which is why he's talking about it...

I think his point was that the lats ALSO get a workout from the BP.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I think his point was that the lats ALSO get a workout from the BP.

a point which i stand by. i also said it was obviously not the most direct way to work your lats, but that it was the best way to work their pushing power (other than pushing cars or such). any pulling motions, such as weighted chins as you mentioned, would obviously be a more direct way to work the lats. however, the lats do come into play when pushing and if you arent using your lats in the bench press i believe you're short changing yourself. maybe there was a misunderstanding somewhere, but i thought you implied that weighted dips were a better way to activate the lats in a push motion. while weighted dips are awesome, i dont think they match the bench in getting the lats involved in that type of motion. this is what i meant by working different muscle groups.

[sanjuro_ronin]

a point which i stand by. i also said it was obviously not the most direct way to work your lats, but that it was the best way to work their pushing power (other than pushing cars or such). any pulling motions, such as weighted chins as you mentioned, would obviously be a more direct way to work the lats. however, the lats do come into play when pushing and if you arent using your lats in the bench press i believe you're short changing yourself. maybe there was a misunderstanding somewhere, but i thought you implied that weighted dips were a better way to activate the lats in a push motion. while weighted dips are awesome, i dont think they match the bench in getting the lats involved in that type of motion. this is what i meant by working different muscle groups.

I don't know how much lat work is involved in a weighted dip, but I would assuem you are correct about more involvement during the BP.
The angle being better suited for that.

[Justinrohrman]

- Lifting for Heavy weight with low reps is not good for the joints. Simply because there are less reps being done does not make it easier on the tendons, ligaments, and joints.

- Benching can be done explosively if it is done with something that will accommodate for the acceleration of the bar such as bands, or chains, simply having a spotter catch the bad is absolutely not a way to go about attempting to gain anything aside from injuries.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

- Benching can be done explosively if it is done with something that will accommodate for the acceleration of the bar such as bands, or chains

touche

*10 characters in your grandmas stinky giner