Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun

[Savi]

Greetings to all,
While I have not been completely active on Kung Fu Magazine Online for some time, I have visited this forum on an infrequent basis. Drleungjohn has brought up some questions about Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen on a different thread, which I would like to address here.

Since drleungjohn has requested there be no intent to restart such things in the answering of his questions, I have hopes that those who are about to participate in this thread may keep that idea as the standard for discussion. I will be using drleungjohn’s posts to open the discussion, but I am writing this thread, for the most part, to everyone here.


Originally posted by drleungjohn
No politics-trolling-etc-discussion and education-go…One can only hope that this will happen! Just to be clear with the readers, my reasons for re-engaging conversations here about Hung Fa Yi are for educational purposes only. This is my only intent. I am not here to point fingers, belittle other lineages, attack personalities, convince others, and force my ideas and understandings on anyone. I hope posters here will consider the message in the above quote, but of course no one is being forced. There is a great deal of information about HFY that could be shared on KFO, and I hope one day we all can have conversations openly and hospitably for everyone’s benefit.


Originally posted by drleungjohn
Since MOST haven’t seen or experienced HFY-That depends on your point of reference. The way I read your comment, I think it may be more accurate to state that some of the audience members here on KFO have not had much exposure to HFYWCK; could possibly be true, but there are many non-HFY martial artists who have (and I mean more than just a few hours) seen and experienced HFY. Several notable people from TWC like Dale Vits (10 yrs), the late William Mason (TWC), and Sifu Delori Flood (20+ yrs) are just a few people who have experienced and seen that HFY is different from what they know about other WC.

Many people have come from other martial arts and joined HFY. Just to name a couple more... Master Benny Meng (20+ years MYVTK) who has also researched many other WC branches during that time immediately identified with the wisdoms of HFY back in 1998. Gary Collins from Ireland, who had 6 years of experience in the learning and teaching of Chu Shon Tin’s WC prior to joining HFY, strongly identifies with HFY and now runs a Regional HFY Branch as an International HFY Instructor.

Aside from these (HFY & non-HFY) public figures I’ve mentioned, there are MANY people around the world who have experienced HFY first hand who do not participate on internet forums. You would be surprised when you really know how many people are out there who have seen and experienced HFY.

Grandmaster Garrett Gee has been teaching HFY privately since 1975, and has taught over 1000 people – about 5 different generations of students over 32 years - and many personality types (from industry professionals to street fighters). He has taught people from all walks of life. The World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Association currently has several hundreds of members across the world, many of whom have come from other martial arts and including already ‘accomplished’ martial artists. So to say “MOST haven’t seen or experienced HFY” is too misleading to the general public, unless you are referring to a specific group of people. Either way, I hope this information helps.


Originally posted by drleungjohn
What makes it different?The difference comes down to personal experience, John. As an example, Sifu Flood of TWC attended a HFY seminar (along with 40+ members in attendance) conducted by Grandmaster Gee where HFY footwork was one of the focal points. Even for him, the first few times he analyzed GM Gee in motion he also could not see the difference between HFY and TWC. Sifu Flood spent over 20 total hours that weekend and a good portion of those hours were with GM Gee until 3 to 4am after scheduled workshop hours. GM Gee took Sifu Flood deeper into the system regarding HFY footwork. Sifu Flood asked GM Gee a lot of questions about the HFY system. It was when GM Gee pointed out the mechanical and strategic characteristics of HFY footwork when Sifu Flood identified that HFY and TWC are actually two different systems, even though both are also Wing Chun.

Some individuals did not see any real differences at first. It wasn’t until they spent more time in the deeper layers of HFY; beyond the surface when they saw how different it was. Some people saw differences right away! Here’s a unique case - a good friend of mine who has no experience in any Wing Chun at all told me from the things he has seen and read about HFY that it is very different from the other WC. Differences are in the eyes of the beholder.

Differences come down to your level of perception and personal experience.

My Sisuk, (Sifu Jeremy) posted a good overview on what is called the “Sei Daai Yan” which is translated as the “Four Big Seals”. The Four Big Seals is a tool that aides in seeing the martial arts world. This information comes from Grandmaster Gee, who is the Buhn Jyun of HFYWCK.


Originally posted by passing_through
Hi John, long time no see…

Guessing and speculating at what other people do is a wonderful waste of time…

As for similarities in Wing Chun, I think it should be obvious that all families would share similarities.

Coming from my research of the HFY perspective to date – and this is something I haven’t heard coming from the Ip Man lineage anywhere, or TWC, or Chi Sim, or Cho Ga, or Gu Lao or anywhere else for that matter… there are four stages to martial arts. Each stage represents a level of achievement in terms of skill and understanding. Now, these terms are HFY specific and I’m still working to trace the etymology and these are my working translations for now, but…

Sei Daai Yan (four big seals)
1) Saam Mo Kiu Yan (three connecting bridge seal)
2) Daai Ji San Faat Yan (disciple body method seal)
3) Wu Faat Yan (protector method seal)
4) Bun Jyun Yan (exclusive right to the origins seal)

These four seals each point to different categories within a traditional martial art family.

The Saam Mo Kiu Yan is a type of free-form general kick/punch/trap/grab format much like today’s mixed martial arts. There’s not a lot of focus in terms of the techniques or clearly defined strategy or tactics.

The Daai Ji San Faat Yan is a more restricted format, focused on body mechanics and specific, signature structures – such as Choi Lei Fat’s Chaap Cheui. Each martial art family has unique signatures – kinda like Terance mentioning about a Robert Chu body structure being unique… cobbled together without giving credit but unique.

The Wu Faat Yan is someone who not only has the physical skill and precise signature structures but also understands the concepts and theories behind them to the point that he or she can preserve the technical knowledge of a martial art family.

The Bun Jyun Yan represents a person that is either the founder or has achieved the same skill and understanding as the original source of the martial art family – and there is also a spiritual dimension to this layer as the ‘original source’ points back to the Buddha-nature or ‘suchness’ or ‘thusness’ within every human being.

I have not come across this concept so clearly defined in my research to date outside the HFY family but I have come across the general levels mentioned from a variety of sources.

This skeleton gives rise to understanding how Wing Chun could come from one source and eventually change through the various generations – and why there are connections throughout the entire Wing Chun family, dysfunctional as it is. If someone was operating at the first seal, his kung fu would be different than someone at the second, third, or fourth seal. As for which is ‘better’ or ‘superior’ that’s a matter of personal preference – not everyone wants to needs a Ph.D. – some just want to get the farge out of high school and be done with it.

Jeremy R.In the first seal, many similarities can be drawn between all martial arts on the surface level. Heck, there are people today that don’t see a difference between karate and kung fu! That reminds me when back in the 80’s the word “Coke” was used for every kind of soda pop there was. But, again that is just a reflection on surface level stereotypes and comparisons. At the surface level, I cannot argue with anyone when they say “all Wing Chun looks/is the same” because that is a valid observation at the surface level. They can say the same about differences, and I still would not argue. But the deeper you go into a martial art, the more unique it becomes from the rest of things and the lesser things look the same.

[Savi]

Sifu Flood identified the differences in HFY to TWC once he was shown the deeper layers, but he was not able to discern such things from the surface level. This is similar to the saying “First, there is a mountain. Then, there is no mountain. Yes, there is a mountain.” To understand the real differences about things, EXPERIENCE IS REQUIRED in the deeper layers, and depending on the level of experience your observations will vary. So to some there are no differences – and vice versa.


Originally posted by DrLeungjohn
What is the WC formula?Simply stated, HFY’s Wing Chun formula is a means to maintain consistency and functionality, structurally and mechanically, for the purpose of HFY study only. With part of my background stemming from Moy Yat Ving Tsun (SNT through the weapons), I can tell you that certain parts of HFY’s WC Formula are present in MYVTK, but there are also things not present there. On the surface, everybody can look the same. The bottom line is that HFY’s WC Formula is used to measure consistency and functionality throughout the HFY system. That is its purpose.


Originally posted by DrLeungjohn
What theories separate it from mainstream WCK AND TWC? Theory is but one category in martial arts. Other areas point to Principle, such that the principles that serve as the foundation of HFY technology allow it interact with other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu styles; Baak Mei, Chu Ga Tong Long, Lung Ying, White Crane, and so on. An example from a technological standpoint is its Kiu Sau platform. HFY’s Kiu Sau is based on principles of Time, Space, and Energy. Because of this foundation, HFY Kiu Sau allows the user to engage other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu without compromising the parameters of HFY operation. HFY’s Kiu Sau is not a reference to using Paak Sau/Taan Sau/Bong Sau/Wu Sau for bridging, per se. There is so much more to HFY’s Kiu Sau in terms of having layers upon layers of information, and several categories of tools and applications.

As mentioned on this forum and over at HFY108.com, HFY’s Kiu Sau Platform contains:

Bong Laap Kiu Sau
Deui Ying Kiu Sau
Dim Buhn Kiu Sau
Faat Sau Kiu Sau
Kwan Sau Kiu Sau
Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau

These are not singular techniques, but refer to an intricate threading of solid concepts with many layers of learning under one over-riding philosophy. They are more like different subjects of study, each with their own chapters and lessons. All these methods of bridging are range dependent and require lots of hands-on training. These tools can interact with the other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu, including other Wing Chun. Depending on how deep you want to go, it may require a lot more background information to understand the technology and its reason for employment, which can be said about anything else in martial arts. Or just the tools can be learned, but that can be determined based on a student’s needs and/or capacity for such things.

If you are interested in doing some reading about HFY’s Kiu Sau, feel free to research HFY108.com because there is lots of info over there on it.

Going back to my training of MYVTK, none of HFY’s Kiu Sau platforms exist in it – save one technique of horizontal Faat Sau (as expressed in the second section of the SNT form). None of the Kiu Sau theories, concepts, and mechanics is present in my previous training. That is one of the biggest differences, from my observations.

Regards,
Savi.

[byond1]

Hi Savi,


Perhaps Flood Sifu, might be talked into writing an article, comparing and contrasting, from his perception - TWC to HFY.

Giving the community additional information, is empowering the community to make the most well informed opinion.

B

[drleungjohn]

Much appreciated and I hope we can create a dialogue with some direction and understanding-I will hold off on my questions for a day or 2-
If Jeremy reads this-Hey Dude-!-My reply to your 4 Seals was in that closed but basically I wonder if NONE of WCK has it-wouldn't that mean that it was added in??

[Savi]

Much appreciated and I hope we can create a dialogue with some direction and understanding-I will hold off on my questions for a day or 2-
If Jeremy reads this-Hey Dude-!-My reply to your 4 Seals was in that closed but basically I wonder if NONE of WCK has it-wouldn't that mean that it was added in??Again, I would say that depends on your point of reference in asking the question. Much of the HFY system was greatly influenced, according to its oral traditions, by Hung Gun Biu from the Hung Gun Boxers of the 1850's. If you read up on some of the threads I've created over at HFY108, specifically on the "Equator Chi Sau" thread, I've posted a lot of information on the impact he had on our great system.

Before the 1850's, you have approximately four generations of people tracing back to the fall of the Ming Dynasty. According to my Buhn Jyun, Grandmaster Gee, the Sei Daai Yan has roots that extend outside of the confines of physical combat. As Sifu Jeremy referenced the Four Big Seals represents a level of awareness/existence wherein each seal progressively leads into the fourth seal, that of spirituality and the Buddha-nature. Reread where I've quoted Sifu Jeremy on the Four Big Seals to get another idea (or refresh) about what each seal represents. The Four Big Seals is a tool (but not limited to) providing a means to see the Gong Wu in a different light.

For a person to attain a 'seal' is no different than having a Guru as your guide. These seals are not self-appointed, and can only be granted by the Guru of your journey. Only the Guru can identify the paradigm that a person's awareness is at in the journey. The impact that the Sei Daai Yan has on HFY, as with any other martial art that may have this, is one of the highest levels of protection and preservation for a system to have in order to survive the fabric of Time - provided that someone is at the higher seals. As an example, someone at the Wu Faat Yan (the Protector Seal) literally owns the information of the system as if it were a part of his/her own blood. That person not only operates at a martial level where mind (principle/concept/theory/strategy/tactic) and body (showmanship) are of near perfect reflections, but also knows precisely what kind of information is to be distributed at what levels a given audience is at. And keep in mind that someone who is at the higher seals can read the martial arts world more clearly than someone at the lower seals.

Now, this is just my opinion, but from what I know of it tells me that this "firewall" of sorts had to have been in existence at or before the birth of the system, and played an important role in its development. It's roots stem from Buddhism, according to my Buhn Jyun, and to see how intrinsic it is in HFY's system logic is quite an amazing thing to behold. Looking at it from this perspective, it would seem too improbable for it to be added in afterwards, for only mere LUCK would have it that the two objects would have complimentary formats to be seamlessly integrated after the formation of HFYWCK.

[JPinAZ]

First, I would like to say to Savi thank you for taking the time to share this information. It is very informative, even coming from HFY myself. Hopefully this will bring about good discussion, and better understanding here!

RE:

....My reply to your 4 Seals was in that closed but basically I wonder if NONE of WCK has it-wouldn't that mean that it was added in??

John,

Reading your post on another thread, and then reading this portion of your post here, I am wondering, what is it you are trying to 'say' here? To me, this seems like you are trying to instigate something - What are you exactly are you saying/thinking when you say 'wouldn't that mean it was added in??'

If you are wondering this, who are you guessing added it and when?
Are you saying that it wasn't there as Savi presented it? Are you saying that this is misinformation by Savi? Please clarify what you are talking about, because this kind of talk could be construed as offensive if implying that savi is misleading you with information, or mores-so that the HFY lineage is doing so.. (?)

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

Hi Savi,


Perhaps Flood Sifu, might be talked into writing an article, comparing and contrasting, from his perception - TWC to HFY.

Giving the community additional information, is empowering the community to make the most well informed opinion.

B

Byond1 (is it Brian, so I can call you by your name?),

This sounds like a very good idea - I think it would be very interesting for all to get his take on the similarities/differences between the systems! (myself included)

I wonder if there is a way someone could get in touch with him and either have him post his thoughts here, or share something with you to post up?

Regards,
Jonathan

[CFT]

Keep it up Savi. It's been a good read so far and an excellent distillation of ideas.

[duende]

This thread is about providing some insight into HFY for those who want it.

All WC systems have differences and unique qualities. Let's appreciate theses differences instead of focusing on them to be devisive.



drleungjohn said: My reply to your 4 Seals was in that closed but basically I wonder if NONE of WCK has it-wouldn't that mean that it was added in??


I find this to be a careless remark, especially after Savi so went to such a positive degree to answer your question.

Yes... the 4 big seals may be unique to HFY. But it was not added in. As Savi has detailed very clearly above, to do so is contradictory to the very nature of their purpose, which is to protect and preserve the purity and techinical knowledge of the system.

To a certain degree, this is also why we don't do videos. While there is nothing wrong with other systems promoting themselves and making a buck on DVD's... for us it is definite no go. Only through hands on interaction can the teacher be assured that the HFY knowledge is preseved and not misinterpreted. We call this Hou Chun Saan Sau.


Keep up the good work Savi, and I hope this thread continues in a positive manner.



Victor,

I know Matt. (the HFY member who offered to pay the seminar fee for you) His offer was genuine. Being West Coasters, unfortunately many of us have no idea how far NY is from Rochester. In Arizona, that's just a drive around the park. :D

[sihing]

Just a quick comment. I've always appreciated Savi's posts, he has a very fine way of explaining things. The problem that arises IMO is sometimes the terminology is different from what I am used to hearing in WC conversations, even when it is translated in fine detail, it still doesn't completely make sense. I was given a copy of the Mastering Kung Fu book a couple of years ago, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, many times over I must say. I recognized many similiar priniciples and concepts to the TWC that I was practicing at that time, at least on the surface. One thing that I have learned over the last two years, is the idea of personal experience, "Hou Chun Saan Sau" as the duende mentioned. It is only then will you realize what the system is all about. I used to think to myself when I viewed clips of Sifu Lam that what he was doing was also included in the system I was practicing/teaching, but it was only when I touched hands with him and other's at his school that I realized just how different what they where doing is.:cool:

Regarding video, if your plan is to promote something, then you should do so by any means. If it wasn't for the video's Sifu Lam had avaliable on the net, and what was sent to me privately, I would have probably never went to visit with him, and be where I am today. So in that instance, it was a positive influence (at least I think so, lol), but I can see where the HFY group is coming from. To me, video's and clips online promote curiosity, that is if you can realize that what you are viewing is not the end all be all of what that system is about. I would love to view video's of HFY in the future as I am still curious about what they are doing and what the differences are. I would also love to share information one on one with them if that situation every arises. I try to view things with an open mind now, and look forward to health displays of sharing. As a family, it can only help us understand one another better IMO, and avoid the pi$$ing matches that sometimes arise between us.:D

James

[osprey3883]

Hello,


One thing that I have learned over the last two years, is the idea of personal experience, "Hou Chun Saan Sau" as the duende mentioned. It is only then will you realize what the system is all about. I used to think to myself when I viewed clips of Sifu Lam that what he was doing was also included in the system I was practicing/teaching, but it was only when I touched hands with him and other's at his school that I realized just how different what they where doing is.
Hi James,
That is a really great illustration of why HCSS is so important. To take it a step further, you can have the same process in person. I may be working away with my partner, thinking I have it, only to find that I don't when the instructor touches my hands.



Instead of inviting people to go travel to a seminar. (Someone invited me on another thread to go to the Rochester, NY seminar. Like I'm really going to drive all the way to Rochester!!!)

Some of us lead very busy lives.

Hi Victor,
I meant no disrespect in my offer. You seem to have some very serious questions about HFY, and in my opinion no one can better address them than Grand Master Gee. If you are sincerely interested it is a small matter to make it to Rochester, especially considering GM Gee will be traveling in from San Francisco.

Matt

[t_niehoff]

Simply stated, HFY’s Wing Chun formula is a means to maintain consistency and functionality, structurally and mechanically, for the purpose of HFY study only. With part of my background stemming from Moy Yat Ving Tsun (SNT through the weapons), I can tell you that certain parts of HFY’s WC Formula are present in MYVTK, but there are also things not present there. On the surface, everybody can look the same. The bottom line is that HFY’s WC Formula is used to measure consistency and functionality throughout the HFY system. That is its purpose.


Can you tell me how you can "measure functionality" outside of sparring/fighting?

[Savi]

Something else to consider for the readers on HFY's WC Formula. This formula is actually a sequence of movements expressing a concept called the "Sup Ming Dim", explained below from a thread on Chi Sau at HFY108.com:

from the teachings of Sifu Garrett Gee
Shape (ying) is the first step to address in connecting your sense of awareness directly to the immediate reality you have to face. Shape goes hand in hand with the Sup Ming Dim Concept. The Sup Ming Dim Concept is a specific set of reference points congruent to your skeleton’s range of motion, and is used to define the most secure and efficient positions to align your body parts; effectively eliminating potential openings to the area(s) under attack. However, without using a defined shape to engage an attack your defense may prove to have unnecessary weaknesses. That could also lead to you having to address more than just the initial attack. Without the implementation of the Sup Ming Dim Concept, every time you move openings will be created.

Any non-defined shape is called a [structural] distortion. By HFY definition, a distortion is actually two-fold: 1) executing a non-defined shape, and 2) improper use of Gate Theory (spatial coverage). Generally, a distortion is referred to as “Outside the Box”. What is the latter? The exact opposite of distortion is called harmony. Harmony is synonymous with the phrase “Inside the Box”, which is the designed environment for the use of Hung Fa Yi technology. This idea of “Inside the Box/Outside the Box” is important to understand in respect to Gee Ng Kiu, as all parameters of operation must be identified and defined before further training occurs.

One of the lessons within the philosophy of Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat (Five Wheel Reaction Method) is that any technique must have a solid concept supporting it such that it may survive in Time and Space. To do this, we must shift our intention from being ‘technique-oriented’ to ‘concept-oriented’. The phrase “No Techniques are All Techniques” is the underlying principle. Without the use of a concept to drive your technique, the chances of its survival in combat cannot be measured. In Hung Fa Yi’s Chi Sau logic, each move utilizes reference points (Sup Ming Dim) to support the concept of Spatial Occupation (Gate Theory), Range Control, and Energy Concepts, which can all be measured. The idea behind this type of Chi Sau is to protect the gates first and foremost through defined structure, before considering striking or kicking.

[canglong]

How can you "measure functionality" outside of sparring/fighting?

The measure of functionality is based on the ability of specific (human) body structures in conjunction with given techniques (based on human body) that clearly demonstrate the ability to enhance the efficiency of the human body to apply a corresponding principle.

Saprring/fighting is used to measure personal and individual ability to apply or comprehend these principles.

"Bong Laap Kiu Sau
Deui Ying Kiu Sau
Dim Buhn Kiu Sau
Faat Sau Kiu Sau
Kwan Sau Kiu Sau
Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau

These are not singular techniques, but refer to an intricate threading of solid concepts with many layers of learning under one over-riding philosophy. They are more like different subjects of study, each with their own chapters and lessons."


originally posted by Savi
All these methods of bridging are range dependent and require lots of hands-on training.

Sparring without some of the proper knowledge could be more detrimental than helpful it is possible it could reinforce some bad habits as opposed to giving the student some specifics to focus on to better their own abilities. So learn first then apply, learn from mistakes of applying then apply again with insight of experience.

[Wayfaring]

Can you tell me how you can "measure functionality" outside of sparring/fighting?

The formula is like a checkpoint exercise. You can check yourself and your structure with it.

How it applies to sparring / fighting is you will either be expressing the Sup Ming Dim in sparring or you will not. To me what I would describe it has done for my sparring / fighting is helped to make it more compact or efficient.

A lot of this stuff really is made for hands-on learning and while explaining some of it like Savi has done a great job on can serve to pique some interest, even if you have a lot of background it really is just made for hands-on learning.

[anerlich]

Man, poor Delroi.

I'll bet he's got a bag of ice on each ear to relieve the burning sensation, and another on his back to relieve the burden of expectation. I'm also wondering whether the "HFY experience" is still branded as deeply into his psyche as some seem to expect it will be.

I personally am sceptical that you can really learn much about certain MA's, Wing Chun and Arnis for example, from video. OTOH others, like BJJ, lend themselves very well to the format.

What I can't follow is the argument that DVDs are supposedly bad when a book is supposedly good.

[Wayfaring]

What I can't follow is the argument that DVDs are supposedly bad when a book is supposedly good.

That's not it at all. You couldn't learn much HFY from the book. It's just an introduction, and putting it out there that it's being taught publicly now. If you're doing the hands on training the book can help. Without it, it mainly just stirs curiosity.

Videos you can see movement and angles but can't feel the pressure. That goes for any MA video. Hands on training is how you're sure you get it. With HFY, hands-on training is ingrained as part of the oral culture too, so you're just not going to see instructional DVD's. Now at some point since people who study HFY are doing amateur competition matches, I'm sure somebody will see a video eventually of someone fighting with it. But like Savi said, that will just be how that person has worked it into their game, not "seeing HFY on a video".

[Savi]

I personally am sceptical that you can really learn much about certain MA's, Wing Chun and Arnis for example, from video. OTOH others, like BJJ, lend themselves very well to the format.

What I can't follow is the argument that DVDs are supposedly bad when a book is supposedly good.I would agree with you on the first part, and disagree with you on the second part.

There is no argument about DVDs vs. Books. The book was intended to help spread the name of HFY out to the public. Yes, it was a marketing piece. But Mastering Kung Fu: Featuring Shaolin Wing Chun is just an introduction into the Hung Gun lineage of Wing Chun. It is by no means an instructional "how-to" book about HFY. Is there another book in the works, yes. And it will not be similar to the MKF, but still will not be a "how-to" book on HFY.

I'm not going to comment on any more posts about books, videos, and marketing tools. Let's move on guys.

Regards,
Savi.

[anerlich]

That's not it at all. You couldn't learn much HFY from the book. It's just an introduction, and putting it out there that it's being taught publicly now. If you're doing the hands on training the book can help. Without it, it mainly just stirs curiosity.



There is no argument about DVDs vs. Books. The book was intended to help spread the name of HFY out to the public. Yes, it was a marketing piece.

Dare I say it, in case this comes as some sort of earth-shattering revelation, quite a few people and companies have, and will continue to, use video for marketing and promotion. Check out this obscure site called YouTube sometime. :eek:

AS any regular reader of this forum would know, some people, incorrectly IMO, regard video as some sort of ultimate verification of the legitimacy of what they do.

So, I was suckered into spending my hard-earned on what you now tell me was just a bit of marketing. Not a good way to bulild consumer confidence or set yourself up for repeat business.

Still, I bought some of Lloyd Irvin's stuff so I've only got myself to blame as an easy mark, I guess. At least I haven't sent any money to Nigeria :cool:


Is there another book in the works, yes. And it will not be similar to the MKF, but still will not be a "how-to" book on HFY.


From what you've been telling me, I probably should be wary of purchasing such when it appears. And shouldn't believe whatever is said about it to prospective punters on the web.


So, GET OFF this thread if you aren't going to inquire about the history, philosophy, culture, or system of HFY.

Your statements about vids and books and attitude to those questions have actually given an insight into HFY philosophy and culture, though perhaps not totally in the way you would have preferred.


I'm not going to comment on any more posts about books, videos, and marketing tools.

That would be wise. When you're heading into a hole, stop digging.

[Tom Kagan]

Videos are good for surface-level comparisons, and from the surface many things look the same. You cannot learn HFY from a book, or a video. Those are two-dimensional educational aides at best. Books, videos, even writing on this forum are just forms of communication that cannot replace hands-on experience, but for the most part can feed curiosity and conversation.

Just to "feed curiosity and conversation," are there any videos available "for good surface-level", "two-dimensional educational" "comparisons" where "many things look the same"?

[drleungjohn]

Much appreciated that you took to time to write this-

JP and Deunde-you guys are looking for a problem that isn't there-simple above board questions-Man saos and Wu Saos down please-this is not a bait and switch thread-

It's not a big deal if Hung Gun Biu added or arranged or discovered the 4 seals and put it in his HFY WCK-if that's who put it in there-which was what I was asking Jeremy based on his original post-Based on his observations and experiences with various WCK lineages-
Carry on-

[Chango]

Just to "feed curiosity and conversation," are there any videos available "for good surface-level", "two-dimensional educational" "comparisons" where "many things look the same"?



Hello Tom,
At this point there are no videos available. However the invite still stands to attend the workshops. Where you can have 1st hand experiences. If this is not possible for you at the moment that is O.k. But the invite still stands.

Chango

[Tom Kagan]

Hello Tom,
At this point there are no videos available. However the invite still stands to attend the workshops. Where you can have 1st hand experiences. If this is not possible for you at the moment that is O.k. But the invite still stands.

Chango

I've already had the 1st hand experiences.

[Savi]

FYI:

I'm ignoring any more posts that's not relevant to the many aspects of Hung Fa Yi from this point on. If you have something personal to say to me, pm me. EASY solution. If you can't, don't expect any respect back...

Regards,
Savi.

[t_niehoff]

The measure of functionality is based on the ability of specific (human) body structures in conjunction with given techniques (based on human body) that clearly demonstrate the ability to enhance the efficiency of the human body to apply a corresponding principle.


I have some serious reservations about this. For one thing, it implies that we can objectively look at various techniques/concepts/etc. and determine in theory just how effective they should be in fighitng. In reality, things are not that simple. Nor do I think it particularly helpful to look at fighting from that perspective. But that's just my view. :)

A person can "efficiently" (however you define it) apply a "corresponding principle" (whatever you mean by that), etc., and still lose a fight or not successfully solve that particular combative problem -- as that "principle", technique, etc. may not be particularly useful generally or in that situation. If a person goes in with some guideline to follow in terms of application, that guideline doesn't assure functionality -- that following the guideline will guarantee success (function). In fact, how do we even know the guideline itself (the theory) is useful other than by reference to results? Experience in fighting (both mine and others) tells me that.

Functionality must involve more than technique/principle/structures; it must involve our ability to perform it, whatever it is, successfully (since if we can't perform it, how is it functional?) -- which involves looking to results. In other words, functionality can't be discussed without reference to results. Result depends not just on our performance in some facuum against some hypothetical opponent, but against a real oponent -- and how good (skill and/or attributes) that opponent is will be a factor in our functionality.

Moreover, it is not *what* we do (technique/principle/structure) that makes something functional, it is how well we can do it that makes it functional: and that involves talent, training, etc. Functionality is in essence skill (the ability to successfully perform a given task with max certainty and min time/effort). How can fighting skill be measured except by fighting?



Saprring/fighting is used to measure personal and individual ability to apply or comprehend these principles.


Of course -- but all we ever have is our individual performance ability. There is no such thing as functionality (making something work) apart from individual performance as it is we, the individual, that makes whatever it is work. If no one is doing something, it is not per se functional. A forehand in tennis isn't functional in and of itself.



"Bong Laap Kiu Sau
Deui Ying Kiu Sau
Dim Buhn Kiu Sau
Faat Sau Kiu Sau
Kwan Sau Kiu Sau
Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau

These are not singular techniques, but refer to an intricate threading of solid concepts with many layers of learning under one over-riding philosophy. They are more like different subjects of study, each with their own chapters and lessons."


And that's great. This is (part of) your (HFY's) curriculum. Cool. But the curriculum (how something is taught) isn't the subject matter (fighting).



Sparring without some of the proper knowledge could be more detrimental than helpful it is possible it could reinforce some bad habits as opposed to giving the student some specifics to focus on to better their own abilities. So learn first then apply, learn from mistakes of applying then apply again with insight of experience.

Although this is a common view, IME sparring at any level doesn't develop poor habits -- just the opposite. Poor fighting habits will result, particularly if a person is sparring with anyone decent, in an immediate "correction" -- feedback that you did something "wrong" (because you will be punished). The more you spar, the more corrections you get! ;) Poor fighting habits comes from not sparring against good people. The less you spar, the fewer corrections you get.

But I do agree with you that a teacher/coach/instructor of any worth will provide the student-trainee with specifics to help them develop better skills. This, of course, requires that the teacher/coach/instructor have those skills himself.

BTW, based on what I have read/heard/seen, it seems that HFY's "formula" is basically a theoretical construct that the practitioner uses as a guide to applying their WCK. My objection doesn't relate to this, just to the idea that functionality can be divorced from individual performance.

[t_niehoff]

The problem with videos is that you don't know what you would be looking at.


I can appreciate that -- after all, our "understanding" will depend on our skill level. Nevertheless, videos of "HFY in action" (that Victor is requesting) can show your methods working -- results that we can see without an educated eye. And, the videos could be narrated to highlight those things we might miss or supplemented with discussion for the same purpose.



In addition, the reality of such things is just a recording of someone's personal showmanship of things they can do; rather than an intended and deliberate demonstration (instructional) of what is HFY. That’s not the focus of this discussion.


Quite frankly, hearing someone tell me or show me what they believe should be done is not very persuasive (that's just theory and anyone can tell me theory). Seeing someone actually able to do it in fighting, and against a decent opponent, is noteworthy.



This thread is about answering Drleungjohn’s questions about HFY, and any other questions people may have. It is not about going through “great pains” to prove how different HFY is to other WCK.


With all due respect, I think this does pertain to answering questions about HFY. What could "educate" the public more about HFY and its methods than seeing it in action?

[Wayfaring]

I've already had the 1st hand experiences.

What seminar did you go to? Or did you visit the SF kwoon?

[canglong]

originally posted by t_niehoff
I have some serious reservations about this.That doesn't surprise anyone reading this.
originally posted by t_niehoff
In reality, things are not that simple.Reality is a matter of time space and energy but you seem to be having some difficulty with that as well so again no one here is surprised at your ability to make simple things appear to be harder than they really are.
originally posted by t_niehoff
Nor do I think it particularly helpful to look at fighting from that perspective. But that's just my view.Quite possibly it is your own narrow minded views that prevent you from understanding things you seem to use your own opinion to argue as opposed to personal experience.
originally posted by t_niehoff
A person can "efficiently" (however you define it) apply a "corresponding principle" (whatever you mean by that), etc., and still lose a fight or not successfully solve that particular combative problem -- as that "principle", technique, etc. may not be particularly useful generally or in that situation.No technique or application exist outside of scientific principles or laws of nature whatever your opinion is on that it won't be changing the facts and your questions and confusion only shows that you are trying to learn a grab bag of techniques by sparring without ever understanding WHAT IT is you are doing instead of learning the concepts that govern the principles, the principles that govern the technique and the time space and energy that allow for their execution. Thats like trying to learn how to skydive for the first time on the way down from 13,000 ft.
originally posted by t_niehoff
Moreover, it is not *what* we do (technique/principle/structure) that makes something functional, it is how well we can do it that makes it functional: and that involves talent, training, etc.Again that is ability or in martial terms that is referred to as lucky strike because you are measuring functional by a measure of possiblility. It is possible to substitue a wrench for a hammer but that is not its function. In order to be efficient which is the equalizer that wing chun strives to incorporate in order to combat speed, size and power you will need to utilize the correct tool in the right moment and in order to do that you have to know and understand three factors of existance for all things time space and energy.

originally posted by t_niehoff
IME sparring at any level doesn't develop poor habits -- just the opposite. Poor fighting habits will result, particularly if a person is sparring with anyone decent, in an immediate "correction" -- feedback that you did something "wrong" (because you will be punished). The more you spar, the more corrections you get! Poor fighting habits comes from not sparring against good people. The less you spar, the fewer corrections you get. D@mn there is just too much of your subjective opinion in that statement and argument for anyone to take you serious. your experience, "sparring with anyone decent" "wrong" "more" "corrections" "good people" "poor fighting habits". That last statement directly supports the need for something such as the wing chun formula , something used to objectively quantify both function and ability.

originally posted by t_niehoff
What could "educate" the public more about HFY and its methods than seeing it in action? People posturing online is just amusing. Terence weren't you and Victor just having a big brew haha over you not attending the wing chun gathring in Cleveland. Now you want to make it seem as if you have more insight to understanding HFY because you met GM Gee at a friendship seminar that was an introduction of a few hours a demo of SNT and lecture. A person that puts words into action would be more like Sifu Flood he traveled from the Bahamas to Ohio to experience HFY spent long hours training and discussing kung fu with GM Gee at times early into the morning 4am in the hotel lobby now thats sincere interest. Yet you live in St. Louis and won't visit Ohio and Victor lives in New York and makes a million excuses as to why he can't go to Rochester. Start a thread though and here you both come. Opinion is nice but those that have put there hands on something are the only ones worth listening to all the opinion and guess work are just a waste of time from people that like to hear themselves talk about things they know little about.

[JPinAZ]

Savi,

To try and get back on the original subject, you mentioned HFY's Kiu Sau. As you said, from your experience, you did not see much of this technology in YMWC. But it is present in other Southern China systems. Can you explain how it differs from these systems? Or, a better way to ask, can you explain how it is unique as a bridging platform - what sets it apart?

Jonathan

[duende]

Come on Victor... just chill.

No one is doubting your 32 years of WC experience here, it's just against our lineage's established tradition of teaching methods and our GM to make vids. Plain and simple. Making references to mind control and cult ****e like that is not only unnecessary but waaaaay out of line.

Heck, one time Sifu was even offered 50 grand by this SF entrepreneur by the name of Professor Chan to make a video, but Sifu turned him down.

You accuse us of marketing, but the truth is preserving the art is the ultimate goal here.... not making a buck.

Our teaching methodology is based upon layered learning. This also complicates matters in creating an instructional video. If there is ever a HFY video/dvd to made, then it will only be made by GM Gee, as he is the only one qualified to truly represent the HFY system. Anything else would not only be a fake, but the person who made it would suffer serious consequences and pretty much be considered a traitor.

Again... I request that everyone treat eachother with respect and let's have a positive discussion.

Best,

Alex

[t_niehoff]

Reality is a matter of time space and energy but you seem to be having some difficulty with that as well so again no one here is surprised at your ability to make simple things appear to be harder than they really are.


Saying reality is "a matter of time, space, and energy", as though that in some way simplifies things, is not only trite and threadbare, but meaningless. Saying tennis is just time, space, and energy doesn't really say anthing, does it? Although, I suppose, it might sound profound to some.



Quite possibly it is your own narrow minded views that prevent you from understanding things you seem to use your own opinion to argue as opposed to personal experience.


Ah, the ad hominem attacks begin. Can't you discuss things without making them personal?

FWIW, my opinions are based on personal experience.



No technique or application exist outside of scientific principles or laws of nature whatever your opinion is on that it won't be changing the facts


Of course everything in the physical universe operates under the same physical laws. So what? That's not the issue being discussed. We can't help -- regardless of what we do -- those laws from operating. Gravity is always there. ;)



and your questions and confusion only shows that you are trying to learn a grab bag of techniques by sparring without ever understanding WHAT IT is you are doing instead of learning the concepts that govern the principles, the principles that govern the technique and the time space and energy that allow for their execution. Thats like trying to learn how to skydive for the first time on the way down from 13,000 ft.Again that is ability or in martial terms that is referred to as lucky strike because you are measuring functional by a measure of possiblility.


Not possibility (chance) but results. How can something be functional if you can't do it? It's only functional when it works.



It is possible to substitue a wrench for a hammer but that is not its function. In order to be efficient which is the equalizer that wing chun strives to incorporate in order to combat speed, size and power you will need to utilize the correct tool in the right moment and in order to do that you have to know and understand three factors of existance for all things time space and energy.


The label -- hammer or wrench -- doesn't interest me. What interests me is the ability to get the job done (to actually do it). Regardless of what you call the tool, if you can get the job done with it, who can say that it is the wrong tool for the job? And, if you can't get the job done with it, who can say it is the right tool for the job? If one tool works better than another at a particular job, this can be easily shown. From a fighting perspective, how can we know whether a tool works well, and works well for me (individual aspects play a large role in these things) -- in other words, functions -- except by reference to results in fighting (it may sound good, it might make sense in demo or chi sao, and still not work in fighting)?



D@mn there is just too much of your subjective opinion in that statement and argument for anyone to take you serious. your experience, "sparring with anyone decent" "wrong" "more" "corrections" "good people" "poor fighting habits". That last statement directly supports the need for something such as the wing chun formula , something used to objectively quantify both function and ability.


As hard as it may be for you to believe, there are a lot of great fighters out there, world class guys, in all sorts of styles, that have done great without the "wing chun formula". There are even some really good WCK fighters out there. If it helps you to have some sort of conceptual construct in learning to apply WCK, that's great. My point is that when you begin referencing functionality or how this formula describes how to "best" use WCK techniques, that's all theory. Nothing more.



People posturing online is just amusing. Terence weren't you and Victor just having a big brew haha over you not attending the wing chun gathring in Cleveland. Now you want to make it seem as if you have more insight to understanding HFY because you met GM Gee at a friendship seminar that was an introduction of a few hours a demo of SNT and lecture. A person that puts words into action would be more like Sifu Flood he traveled from the Bahamas to Ohio to experience HFY spent long hours training and discussing kung fu with GM Gee at times early into the morning 4am in the hotel lobby now thats sincere interest. Yet you live in St. Louis and won't visit Ohio and Victor lives in New York and makes a million excuses as to why he can't go to Rochester. Start a thread though and here you both come. Opinion is nice but those that have put there hands on something are the only ones worth listening to all the opinion and guess work are just a waste of time from people that like to hear themselves talk about things they know little about.

Try discussing issues, and answering questions, instead of making ad hominem attacks.

And since you brought it up: I can't speak for Victor, but I don't need to go to Ohio or see any more HFY. There is a whole lot of stuff out there in the martial art world that I don't want to waste my time on. When I go to seminars (which I do attend, btw), I visit those persons who have proven they have genuine fighting skills and coaching ability. Anything else is a waste of my time -- because I'm not going to get anything from people who can't do (in fighting) what they teach.

If you want to say that HFY has a wing chun formula, and that you fellows use this formula to help you apply your WCK, I'd be cool with that. How could I argue with you? My point is simply that when you say this formula "measures functionality" you are wrong. The only measure of functionality is performance (sparring/fighting).

[Wayfaring]

If you want to say that HFY has a wing chun formula, and that you fellows use this formula to help you apply your WCK

I'd say that's pretty much it. I'd also say it has to do with structure and alignment.

[t_niehoff]

I'd say that's pretty much it. I'd also say it has to do with structure and alignment.

That's cool. :)

[canglong]

originally posted by t_niehoff
In reality, things are not that simple. Nor do I think it particularly helpful to look at fighting from that perspective. But that's just my view. You were the one that referenced your own simple views as if they were fact.
originally psoted by t_niehoff
FWIW, my opinions are based on personal experience.
Not on this topic.

originally posted by t_niehoff
Of course everything in the physical universe operates under the same physical laws. So what? That's not the issue being discussed. We can't help -- regardless of what we do -- those laws from operating. Gravity is always there.Without proper knowledge though they can and will work against you which means they are a factor in this equation which means they are a part of the discussion!
originally posted by t_niehoff
As hard as it may be for you to believe, there are a lot of great fighters out there, world class guys, in all sorts of styles, that have done great without the "wing chun formula". There are even some really good WCK fighters out there. If it helps you to have some sort of conceptual construct in learning to apply WCK, that's great. My point is that when you begin referencing functionality or how this formula describes how to "best" use WCK techniques, that's all theory. Nothing more. As hard as this may be for you to believe there are quite a few people out there that have never sparred a day in their life that could show up at your gym right now and cause havoc with you and your MMA sparring partners. My point is if you can possibly mistake sparring as the be all to end all of fighting you might also be mistaking fools gold as gold.
originally posted by t_niehoff
There is a whole lot of stuff out there in the martial art world that I don't want to waste my time on. When I go to seminars (which I do attend, btw), I visit those persons who have proven they have genuine fighting skills and coaching ability.
Oh so there is no such thing as good young talent in your eyes or was it the Chu Sau Lei record of fights which caught your eye.

[Wayfaring]

And btw...my only "interest" in all of this is to see these "big differences" and the "much more" that Benny Meng once said to me exists within HFY - as contrasted with TWC. Great.

Do any of us really know enough about what is in TWC to be able to do that kind of contrast? Or is that something that might take you sitting down with GM Gee and having an in-depth discussion for a few hours like Delroi did?

[duende]

"Our teaching methodology is based upon layered learning. This also complicates matters in creating an instructional video. If there is ever a HFY video/dvd to made, then it will only be made by GM Gee, as he is the only one qualified to truly represent the HFY system. Anything else would not only be a fake, but the person who made it would suffer serious consequences and pretty much be considered a traitor." (Alex/Duende)


***BUT WHY all the mystery, Alex? Why must one attend seminars or join a school in order to get to see the system in depth. Granted hands-on is always better than a video - but there is still MUCH that can be gleaned from a video series...and especially if one has a book or two to go with the series.

Now problem with layered learning...no problem with the idea that only Garrett Gee is qualified to make such a video/dvd series.

BUT THERE SHOULDN'T BE "COMPLICATIONS"...Why is that? Haven't you ever heard of a ten volume video series? Wherein each volume builds upon the foundations laid in the previous volumes?

And btw...my only "interest" in all of this is to see these "big differences" and the "much more" that Benny Meng once said to me exists within HFY - as contrasted with TWC. Great.

Now show me...without referring me to time, space, energy, kiu sau this and kiu sau that theory. Lots of words - but very little by way of actual seeing.

There's no mystery Victor, but I can understand what your getting at though. I imagine GM Gee might make a video one of these days, but for now it's way on the back burner. Keep in mind that although we've been around for sometime, relatively speaking, we still only just recently came out to the public. Therefore our GM's time is filled with much traveling and regional school supervision. A video series just has to take the back seat for now.

Anyways.... No doubt, GM Gee will make it to Manhattan again soon enough. If possible, we could all meet then.

[JPinAZ]

** NM, it's not worth it :) **

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am sure that you may have noticed that several posts have been deleted. This is in response to complaints received and the content of said posts being mostly negative and having little to do with enhancing communication. Should people wish to post and discuss various aspects of the different methodologies that is fine. I would simply ask that it be done in a respectful manner and everyone refrain from making personal attacks. If this is not possible then please refrain from posting on this subject.

If personal attacks continue then those making such will be warned and as a last resort face being banned from this forum.

As always should anyone wish to discuss this with me feel free to email or PM me.

[anerlich]

You accuse us of marketing

Savi and Wayfaring both said MKF *was* marketing above. Nothing wrong with marketing per se. Selling people the sizzle while claiming it is the steak is another matter.


Do any of us really know enough about what is in TWC to be able to do that kind of contrast?

Obviously not. I can't see a two hour discussion with anyone changing that either.

There was a rumour going round that one of the HFY seniors said TWC had 70% of HFY did, but that it happened was denied by others, as if denial of an obviously ridiculous assertion by someone unqualified to judge were necessary.


but the person who made it would suffer serious consequences and pretty much be considered a traitor

:rolleyes: Seriously, do you guys ever listen to yourselves?

[Tom Kagan]

If there is ever a HFY video/dvd to made, then it will only be made by GM Gee, as he is the only one qualified to truly represent the HFY system.

How many years has he been teaching?

And, if only he is qualified to represent it, what is it all you unqualified guys are trying to say about it on this forum?


but the person who made it would suffer serious consequences and pretty much be considered a traitor.

What "serious consequences" would befallen this "traitor"?

[duende]

:rolleyes: Seriously, do you guys ever listen to yourselves?

I admit traitor does sound silly... but I'm slammed at work and was at a loss for a better word. :p

[anerlich]

but I'm slammed at work and was at a loss for a better word

Fair enough. FWIW, I think you're one of the more reasonable "sparring partners" on these sorts of threads.

[Liddel]

As hard as this may be for you to believe there are quite a few people out there that have never sparred a day in their life that could show up at your gym right now and cause havoc with you and your MMA sparring partners.

Ive been reading along just as an observer in this thread but this comment has me questioning your experience.

Althought my opinion hinges on your idea of what "causing havoc" really means :rolleyes:

If it means bleeding all over the place or having an arm removed then im with you.

Back to the thread.
DREW

[Wayfaring]

And, if only he is qualified to represent it, what is it all you unqualified guys are trying to say about it on this forum?


So, Kagan, you mentioned you had experienced HFY firsthand. Are you avoiding saying where and taking any personal ownership here, and all you've got to say is a comment about who is qualified?

You saw it. You have a Moy Yat background. You post a lot on internet forums. Come on, man up. Tell us what you saw.

Or I suppose you could sit back in the bushes and snipe away like you're doing.

[Wayfaring]

Savi and Wayfaring both said MKF *was* marketing above. Nothing wrong with marketing per se. Selling people the sizzle while claiming it is the steak is another matter.


Oh, I don't know, anerlich. I think there are a lot of people out there with "rilly rilly good reeding comprehensssion skillzzzzzz" that can come to the conclusion the book was a little bit of marketing and yet still has substance behind what it covered.

And no, I never listen to myself. I just listen to the little lady.

[Wayfaring]

Althought my opinion hinges on your idea of what "causing havoc" really means :rolleyes:


I could spray Icy Hot on their jock straps :p

[Tom Kagan]

So, Kagan, you mentioned you had experienced HFY firsthand. Are you avoiding saying where and taking any personal ownership here, and all you've got to say is a comment about who is qualified?

You saw it. You have a Moy Yat background. You post a lot on internet forums. Come on, man up. Tell us what you saw.

Or I suppose you could sit back in the bushes and snipe away like you're doing.

I responded to Chango's "invitation" because he forgot I've already done that route. (May 21st - 23rd, 1999 in Ohio w/Garrett Gee. Unlike many who attended, I had chance with semi-private "face time" with him.)

What I experienced is irrelevant to this thread because it's essentially all been rehashed before here and elsewhere. I already know what the responses to my posting of my impressions will be. So, do your own searching. I won't help you with the re-trolling of yet another thread in this forum. It's a tired subject. The only thing I'm avoiding is doing the work for you.

Take that any way you want. It doesn't concern me.


P.S. I'm not sniping, I'm asking questions. (Plus, there are no bushes here in the concrete jungle). Thus far, the questions I've asked have been answered.

However, feel free to make this about me by going further into the typical ad-hominem we've all seen so many times before because you think there is some perceived slight which insults the honor of the southern shaolin temple found somewhere within my words. That's of no concern to me, either.

[Wayfaring]

I responded to Chango's "invitation" because he forgot I've already done that route. (May 21st - 23rd, 1999 in Ohio w/Garrett Gee. Unlike many who attended, I had chance with semi-private "face time" with him.)

What I experienced is irrelevant to this thread because it's essentially all been rehashed before here and elsewhere. I already know what the responses to my posting of my impressions will be. So, do your own searching. I won't help you with the re-trolling of yet another thread in this forum. It's a tired subject. The only thing I'm avoiding is doing the work for you.

Take that any way you want. It doesn't concern me.


P.S. I'm not sniping, I'm asking questions. (Plus, there are no bushes here in the concrete jungle). Thus far, the questions I've asked have been answered.

However, feel free to make this about me by going further into the typical ad-hominem we've all seen so many times before because you think there is some perceived slight which insults the honor of the southern shaolin temple found somewhere within my words. That's of no concern to me, either.

OK - cool. Thanks for mentioning it. I know a lot of dudes with a Moy Yat background that have expressed things about HFY from varying points in the spectrum. I do think that secretly, though, you must be a ninja because of your use of camouflage and ground cover in the concrete jungle. ;)

[anerlich]

Oh, I don't know, anerlich. I think there are a lot of people out there with "rilly rilly good reeding comprehensssion skillzzzzzz" that can come to the conclusion the book was a little bit of marketing and yet still has substance behind what it covered.


It has substance, but we'd probably disagree on the substance/spin ratio.

And that doesn't change the fact that Duende's angst over HFY being accused of marketing is baseless, since it IS marketing to some degree by both your and Savi's admissions.

Anyway, hairsplitting. On to more important topics - like Tony's threat about non-sparrers creating havoc in MMA gyms.


I could spray Icy Hot on their jock straps

You could also wear a beekeeper's suit, arrive with a large jar of angry bees, shake and open it in the middle of the mat during class. Or put LSD in the drinking fountain. If you've read Eddie Bravo's latest book, you'll know the last isn't that great a leap for certain gyms :p

[duende]

Fair enough. FWIW, I think you're one of the more reasonable "sparring partners" on these sorts of threads.

Ha ha! Thanks, although considering the utter lack of "reason" present on some of these flame threads, it's not too hard to stand out. :eek:

[duende]

. Or put LSD in the drinking fountain. If you've read Eddie Bravo's latest book, you'll know the last isn't that great a leap for certain gyms :p


Ummm at a BJJ gym I think you'd deinitely want to stick with LSD in the drinking fountain. Lord help us if someone subsituted it with Ecstasy instead.

[Savi]

Well I didn't realize how subjective the word "marketing" can be. Learned something new! Judging from the responses, marketing = dollars = greed. I can appreciate the perspective taken, but my understanding of its usage regarding the MKF book is not the same context as it has been paraded around. I've been misunderstood in my post, and for that confusion, I apologize.

However, marketing is really just a method to accomplish a particular goal. Marketing in and of itself is not a bad thing, it is simply a means to an end whether it be for financial gain or educational purposes or whatever else may be. Marketing is a necessary tool for businesses to survive.

Duende's message about preservation of the HFY art is the reason behind my use for marketing via the MKF book. Anerlich's understanding of my comment was taken out of the context I meant for it, but again I was not clear in my post so that is totally my fault.

Regards,
Savi.

[anerlich]

I think there is more confusion here between marketing and advertising, actually.

Both have their place (both are about the *market*place, i.e. money or some other currency, not that that in of itself is a problem), both are open to abuse.

If I'm buying something, I want to make sure what I buy is actually what the spruiker said it was. And if it's a book purported to be factual, that it is that rather than a hagiography or political manifesto.

And, DVD's are as good as books for marketing and advertising. I don't care whether you produce any or not (YouTube vids are cheaper) and no one can say you have to, but to say they are inherently unsuitable for those purposes is to deny facts.

[taltos]

I think there is more confusion here between marketing and advertising, actually.

I agree. I also think that the intent is what lends itself so well to the subjectivity.

By this I mean that "marketing" is really a very vague term. It is simply making the "market" aware that something exists. Now, the intent behind that can be simply to make a group (re: market) aware of something, that's great. If it is to vacuum -YOUR- money into -MY- pocket (ever watch late night local TV), maybe not so good.

I think Savi meant it in the sense of increasing awareness of another viable martial/philosophical activity available to the public.

-Levi

[t_niehoff]

You were the one that referenced your own simple views as if they were fact.


Some of my views are fact. That functionality can't be measured outside of sparring/sighting is one of those "facts". :)



Not on this topic.


If you mean HFY and what is in its curriculum, then I agree. However, on issues like what "measures functionality" a person doesn't need to know HFY -- it's the same across the board.



Without proper knowledge though they can and will work against you which means they are a factor in this equation which means they are a part of the discussion!


I understand that HFY has "the wing chun formula" which provides some conceptual construct toward application. If you find -- from sparring -- that it helps you, that's great. If you are not *using* it (in sparring), then your opinion is all theory, conjecture. Either way, what you and HFY does or does not do is of no real interest to me. I only got involved in this thread because you said this formula "measured functionality" which it can't -- as functionality (how well something works for you) can only be measured by your doing it.



As hard as this may be for you to believe there are quite a few people out there that have never sparred a day in their life that could show up at your gym right now and cause havoc with you and your MMA sparring partners.


Of course there are some big, strong, naturally tough guys out there that can give anyone trouble. I've met some. But fighting skill comes from fighting. No other way. Look at any proven skilled (good) fighter, and you'll see they developed their skill in sparring. And to maintain that skill level, they had to maintain the sparring. So while HFY may have some formula which provides some guidance for you in application, without sparring there can be no functionality.



My point is if you can possibly mistake sparring as the be all to end all of fighting you might also be mistaking fools gold as gold.


Sparring/fighting is the core skill-building activity of any fighting method, and a person's skill level will be directly related to the amount of quality sparring they've done. That said, of course there are numerous other factors that bear on our development, things like coaching, talent, experience, drive, etc.

The usefulness of anything, including the wing chun formula, can only be determined via results (in sparring).



Oh so there is no such thing as good young talent in your eyes or was it the Chu Sau Lei record of fights which caught your eye.

By "good young talent" do you mean touted HFY "fighter" Milton Wallace? ;)

[drleungjohn]

well-I tried--but same ole-same ole-regardless of thread or internet forum-

Hey Victor-I don't know what post was deleted-but having read your posts for a while now-I really don't see how you could written anything better or worse then what knifefighter has written over time,wrt making personal insults--and still posts and remains,with immunity-sorry

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've let it go, John...and started another thread entitled Why Mystery? that covers it. In fact, duende/Alex's post on that thread includes my entire post that was deleted - if you want to look at it.

Some people seem to have a big problem with videos...hence the mystery. :rolleyes: :cool:

[JPinAZ]

Savi,

To try and get back on the original subject, you mentioned HFY's Kiu Sau. As you said, from your experience, you did not see much of this technology in YMWC. But it is present in other Southern China systems. Can you explain how it differs from these systems? Or, a better way to ask, can you explain how it is unique as a bridging platform - what sets it apart?

Jonathan

In case you missed it Savi...

Hopefully this thread can be 'saved' :)

[Matrix]

Some people seem to have a big problem with videos...hence the mystery. :rolleyes: :cool:Hey Victor,
According to this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVT-H1TLrM)HFY is "underground" and may not be shown to the general public. Make sure that you read the full description that comes with the video. I just thought you might find it interesting. :cool:

[Matrix]

All WC systems have differences and unique qualities. Let's appreciate theses differences instead of focusing on them to be devisive.When I first read this, I thought it was certainly the most sensible statement made in this thread. I guess I'm perplexed by the "underground" nature of the HFY system, and find that if that is indeed the case it would be hard to appreciate the unique qualities of a system that is hidden from the general public.

Please understand that I am not anti-HFY or against any other lineage or group for that matter. I'm just pointing out that shrouding something in mystery may serve to fuel the imagination of those who have an axe to grind, which in turn drives a greater wedge between Wing Chun practioners of different groups. I'm sure that you have good reason to do this, and it is certainly your right. Just understand that some of the reactions you see from some on this forum may be an undesired side effect of the secrecy that you hold onto.
Regardless of the who's where's and why's that surround the history and mystery of certain issues, I wish we could act all more like kung fu brothers............... well I guess we do, but unfortunately it's Cain and Abel. Just color me naive.

Peace,
Bill

[taltos]

I wish we could act all more like kung fu brothers............... well I guess we do, but unfortunately it's Cain and Abel.

So true.

At our school (and on the hfy108 site) there is a banner that reads (translation)... "In all directions, there is one family." If only we could all act as if we actually believed it. I mean, family can disagree (I've had some knock-down drag-outs with my brother in my day), but in the end, family is family. What a concept, and thanks for the reminder.

-Levi

[Wayfaring]

For a martial art that is "underground" and "shrouded in mystery" there certainly seem to be a h3ll of a lot of publicly accessible seminars (1-3 per year), books, and schools open to the public to drop by and train at.

[Tom Kagan]

Hey Victor,
According to this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVT-H1TLrM)HFY is "underground" and may not be shown to the general public. Make sure that you read the full description that comes with the video. I just thought you might find it interesting. :cool:

Oh man. That's Milton Wallace.
http://www.bullshido.com/articles/milton-wallace-4.html

Regardless of whatever anyone's perspective of these issues are, dragging this guy out as anything to support or counter a claim related to the posts here is completely unreasonable.

[anerlich]

Hey Tom,

interesting reading. That guy sounds like a complete nut job.

FWIW, the stuff he did on the vid bears some tenuous similarities to the TWC forms. But the angles are all wrong, and that flicky finger stuff on bil jee is laughable.

[anerlich]

but in the end, family is family

I'm fairly unimpressed when people play the "family" card.

I know that back in the day, when you joined a KF school you effectively became part of the Sifu's family. But in the 21st century, you are joining a club, academy or association. To blur the lines of the relationship with "family" is IMO to open the door to the type of abuse that occurs in cults. I've had the misfortune to have been involved with a school that worked along those lines about 25 years ago. It can and does happen.

I was born into a good family and have no interest in joining another.

Charles Manson had a "family" too. That worked out well, didn't it?

I know others feel differently, but I generally check my wallet's still in my pocket and politely refuse the kool-aid when a Sifu starts talking like this.

[duende]

Hey Tom,

interesting reading. That guy sounds like a complete nut job.

FWIW, the stuff he did on the vid bears some tenuous similarities to the TWC forms. But the angles are all wrong, and that flicky finger stuff on bil jee is laughable.

That's Milton doing some YM WC he learned not HFY. Which btw... he clearly states in the video's dialog. Anyways he is both a friend and old classmate of mine from before we went public. Hence his ussage of the term underground.

As for the Bullshido "investigation", what they have written up, and what my true life experiences with the guy have been are two very different things. I know Milton and I also know a witchhunt when I see one. According to Milton, none of those Bullshido guys ever showed up to meet with him much less step into a ring with him. Nor would they ever give him any of their true names. Do the math.

Now my experience with Bullshido is this.... keep in mind that I've been following that site pretty much since it started years ago. Most of the original people aren't there anymore, and if they are, they rarely post. Why is that??? Hmmmm...

Anyways... Tom maybe you can tell us why you advertise yourself as a practioner or "Chinese boxing" and not Wing Chun. Could it be because that they'd be all over you with their group think prejudices against Wing Chun??

But whatever.... I don't put much stock into any of this Internet stuff. The one thing that is truly screwed however is that now Milton has a bunch of white supremacy freaks threatening him with phone calls and sending him hate emails.

That's F U C T.

So I'm done with Bullshido. It's all yours Tom... enjoy!

[Savi]

Savi,

To try and get back on the original subject, you mentioned HFY's Kiu Sau. As you said, from your experience, you did not see much of this technology in YMWC. But it is present in other Southern China systems. Can you explain how it differs from these systems? Or, a better way to ask, can you explain how it is unique as a bridging platform - what sets it apart?

JonathanSorry for the delay Jonathan. I'll answer your question in the morning (Saturday morning). Just to let you know, that's one heck of a question to answer... but not in terms of being 'difficult' more than 'involved'... definitely something I'd LOVE to share with everyone!

Regards,
Savi.

PS:
Sihing73, is there anything in particular that you would like me to clarify about what I have written from the first page? I'd be more than happy to see how I can help you, because it indirectly helps me to communicate better with my audience on these things. Your input is much appreciated.

[t_niehoff]

That's Milton doing some YM WC he learned not HFY. Which btw... he clearly states in the video's dialog. Anyways he is both a friend and old classmate of mine from before we went public. Hence his ussage of the term underground.

As for the Bullshido "investigation", what they have written up, and what my true life experiences with the guy have been are two very different things. I know Milton and I also know a witchhunt when I see one. According to Milton, none of those Bullshido guys ever showed up to meet with him much less step into a ring with him. Nor would they ever give him any of their true names. Do the math.

Now my experience with Bullshido is this.... keep in mind that I've been following that site pretty much since it started years ago. Most of the original people aren't there anymore, and if they are, they rarely post. Why is that??? Hmmmm...

Anyways... Tom maybe you can tell us why you advertise yourself as a practioner or "Chinese boxing" and not Wing Chun. Could it be because that they'd be all over you with their group think prejudices against Wing Chun??

But whatever.... I don't put much stock into any of this Internet stuff. The one thing that is truly screwed however is that now Milton has a bunch of white supremacy freaks threatening him with phone calls and sending him hate emails.

That's F U C T.

So I'm done with Bullshido. It's all yours Tom... enjoy!

So you are standing by Milton? And are you saying that his claims are true? He is your premeir HFY NHB fighter -- as was implied on the HFY108 forum?

[Matrix]

Regardless of whatever anyone's perspective of these issues are, dragging this guy out as anything to support or counter a claim related to the posts here is completely unreasonable.Tom,
Well that's part of the problem isn't it? Lots of people making claims about this system and that lineage. You're never quite sure if what you're being told id true or not. I'm sure there are guys like that in every family.

By the way, thanks for the link. It's quite interesting.

[Matrix]

That's Milton doing some YM WC he learned not HFY. Which btw... he clearly states in the video's dialog.
Duende,
It doesn't even look like YM WC to me, but based on the bio that Tom posted I suspect that he's got some mish-mash of systems patched together from information picked up from multiple sources including his imagination.

My apologies to those HFY folks out there for bringing this guy into the discussion.

[Matrix]

I'm fairly unimpressed when people play the "family" card.
My point is that there is too much in-figthing in the WC world. We waste a lot of time and energy arguing about silliness. We even argue over the romanization of WC/VT/WT and which one is trademarked etc. I think this just adds to the weak view of WC in the martial arts community.

[Tom Kagan]

According to Milton, none of those Bullshido guys ever showed up to meet with him much less step into a ring with him. Nor would they ever give him any of their true names. Do the math.

You have just made it clear you didn't read the link. You wouldn't have said this if you did. Regardless, if Milton is now ready to meet with at least two people who not only gave their names to him, but approached him respectfully and with no agenda other than to give him a fair shake, all he has to do is set up a time and place to meet. (He hasn't done that, preferring to add further roadblocks in the way of trying to clear up the the matter and exhibiting increasingly odd behavior.)

Still, if you now want to claim Milton as your own and hold him out as an example of your Kung Fu, let me know and I will completely retract my last post. Also, if you wish, I will lobby the staff at Bullshido to update Milton's profile to indicate that, regardless of what Garrett Gee said in a phone interview, Milton Wallace is indeed a proper high level practitioner/representative of the students at your school. Let me know how you wish to proceed.


The one thing that is truly screwed however is that now Milton has a bunch of white supremacy freaks threatening him with phone calls and sending him hate emails.

Obviously, you haven't been reading his email and PMs he sends people. Also, it is appears you have no idea who is trying to contact him or their ethnicities. (Nice try on playing the race card, though.)


Anyways... Tom maybe you can tell us why you advertise yourself as a practioner or "Chinese boxing" and not Wing Chun. Could it be because that they'd be all over you with their group think prejudices against Wing Chun??

What are you talking about? It is quite clear from my profile and my posts there I don't hide anything about me or the fact that I am a practitioner of Ving Tsun. (Besides, are you now suggesting Ving Tsun is not Chinese Boxing? :) ) Once again, you starting devolve into ad-hominem.



There are plenty of places to express views regarding MA. Bullshido, however, is a rip roaring, thoroughly obnoxious, locker room "snap fest" of a place. It is not very reassuring - no hugs, no tea, not much 'attaboy' mutual butt-scratching, and a rather low signal-to-noise ratio.

Sure, you need a thick skin over there. Those who wear their heart on their sleeve, or caught up in their "image" instead of "performance", or have a chip on their shoulder, or something to prove don't usually last long. But for those who prefer to look at the MA world through the dark lens - the murky, creepy, sink or swim one - that place is absolute bliss.



(At least you can take solace in the irony of doing exactly what you supposedly dislike about Bullshido.)

[Tom Kagan]

My point is that there is too much in-figthing in the WC world. We waste a lot of time and energy arguing about silliness. We even argue over the romanization of WC/VT/WT and which one is trademarked etc. I think this just adds to the weak view of WC in the martial arts community.


IMO, in-fighting has little to do with "the weak view of WC in the martial arts community." In-fighting is everywhere in all styles. For instance: Absolutely nothing nothing occurring WC could hold a candle to the near constant squabbles/lawsuits between the Judo federations and between their members. Heck more than one Judo "family squabble" made it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

[t_niehoff]

My apologies to those HFY folks out there for bringing this guy into the discussion.


Why? Many of the HFY guys themselves were touting Milton as one of the HFY fighters on the HFY108 forum not too long ago -- they even posted some testimonial by Milton on Gee and HFY, and suggested that Milton was ready and willing to defend HFY's "honor". Surely they haven't abandoned him?

[t_niehoff]

IMO, in-fighting has little to do with "the weak view of WC in the martial arts community." In-fighting is everywhere in all styles. For instance: Absolutely nothing nothing occurring WC could hold a candle to the near constant squabbles/lawsuits between the Judo federations and between their members. Heck more than one Judo "family squabble" made it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

WCK's reputation among people involved in the fighting arts, like aikido's and tai ji's reputation, and like all TMA's reputations, comes from one thing: that the overwhelming majority of WCK practitioners, including the "masters" and "grandmasters" have little to no real fighting skills.

[Savi]

Everyone,
This thread is intended for one main purpose, and that is to help inform all readers about the system of Hung Fa Yi. I am going to drop about 4 pages worth of information on Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sau that I've typed up in Microsoft Word. I hope everyone has got a little time on their hands this weekend!

There is no need to continue to push discussion about individuals and personalities. I'm not taking any sides, but I am going to bring this thread back into a more educational focus. Let's all make a concerted effort to focus on technical aspects rather than forcing a POLITICAL non-productive waste of time. If you're not interested, then by all means post elsewhere.

Please bear with me, it's a lot of information that is coming your way.

Regards,
Savi.

[duende]

So you are standing by Milton? And are you saying that his claims are true? He is your premeir HFY NHB fighter -- as was implied on the HFY108 forum?

I'm standing by Milton as far as I've said. As for the claims on Bullshido. Yeah.... alot of them sound wildly outlandish. But I'm not convinced Milton actually made all of them.

As for Milton being our premier NHB fighter... that's just you trying to cause trouble. No one has ever said that.

[duende]

Duende,
It doesn't even look like YM WC to me, but based on the bio that Tom posted I suspect that he's got some mish-mash of systems patched together from information picked up from multiple sources including his imagination.

My apologies to those HFY folks out there for bringing this guy into the discussion.

No sweat.... he learned some YM from a Chris Chan student. That's why I mentioned YM.

[duende]

QUOTE=Tom Kagan;767309You have just made it clear you didn't read the link. You wouldn't have said this if you did. Regardless, if Milton is now ready to meet with at least two people who not only gave their names to him, but approached him respectfully and with no agenda other than to give him a fair shake, all he has to do is set up a time and place to meet. (He hasn't done that, preferring to add further roadblocks in the way of trying to clear up the the matter and exhibiting increasingly odd behavior.)


Nah... didn't read the link, just browsed. Didn't have to. Read the whole thread ages ago.




Still, if you now want to claim Milton as your own and hold him out as an example of your Kung Fu, let me know and I will completely retract my last post. Also, if you wish, I will lobby the staff at Bullshido to update Milton's profile to indicate that, regardless of what Garrett Gee said in a phone interview, Milton Wallace is indeed a proper high level practitioner/representative of the students at your school. Let me know how you wish to proceed.


Tom... you read my post. Where did I claim Milton was a high level HFY practitioner?? No where! Make all the threats you like with your new found friends at Bullshido. I could care less. Btw... the guy who ask GM Gee didn't give his name either. Talk about being mysterious. Nevertheless, GM Gee gave him the truth openly.




Obviously, you haven't been reading his email and PMs he sends people. Also, it is appears you have no idea who is trying to contact him or their ethnicities. (Nice try on playing the race card, though.)


So Tom... tell us. How well do you know these Bullshido buds of yours. Have you ever actually met them in person? Have you ever trained with any of them, watched them fight, see them demonstrate there aptitude at Escrima, or Knife fighting?? Have you ever went for a beer and just hung out and chill??? I doubt it.



(Nice try on playing the race card, though.)


Funny Tom... why do some people need to mention stuff like race cards?? Are you now saying that racism doesn't exist? Or that White supremacists don't exist? Do you know beyond any doubt that no White suprmacists hang out on Bullshido???

Again... I doubt it.



What are you talking about? It is quite clear from my profile and my posts there I don't hide anything about me or the fact that I am a practitioner of Ving Tsun. (Besides, are you now suggesting Ving Tsun is not Chinese Boxing? :) ) Once again, you starting devolve into ad-hominem.



No ad-hominem Tom. Last time I looked, your profile said Chinese Boxing. No mention of Ving Tsun. For Laymen, only Wing Tsun means WIng Tsun. Why don't you just put Moy Yat Wing Tsun under your name.... you are a high level member right??



There are plenty of places to express views regarding MA. Bullshido, however, is a rip roaring, thoroughly obnoxious, locker room "snap fest" of a place. It is not very reassuring - no hugs, no tea, not much 'attaboy' mutual butt-scratching, and a rather low signal-to-noise ratio.

Sure, you need a thick skin over there. Those who wear their heart on their sleeve, or caught up in their "image" instead of "performance", or have a chip on their shoulder, or something to prove don't usually last long. But for those who prefer to look at the MA world through the dark lens - the murky, creepy, sink or swim one - that place is absolute bliss.

(At least you can take solace in the irony of doing exactly what you supposedly dislike about Bullshido.)



What you say is how I found it originally as well. Now it just seems like a snowball effect going down a hill with a bunch of sideliners jumping on for the ride.

[Savi]

On second thought, I'll create another thread because there is way too much info to read... it will probably come in about 3-5 posts.

Savi.

[duende]

Everyone,
This thread is intended for one main purpose, and that is to help inform all readers about the system of Hung Fa Yi. I am going to drop about 4 pages worth of information on Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sau that I've typed up in Microsoft Word. I hope everyone has got a little time on their hands this weekend!

There is no need to continue to push discussion about individuals and personalities. I'm not taking any sides, but I am going to bring this thread back into a more educational focus. Let's all make a concerted effort to focus on technical aspects rather than forcing a POLITICAL non-productive waste of time. If you're not interested, then by all means post elsewhere.

Please bear with me, it's a lot of information that is coming your way.

Regards,
Savi.

Agreed.

I just answered everyone else's questions before I saw this post.


Again... I too request that we keep this thread non-politcal, without personal attacks and sidetracks.

[t_niehoff]

I'm standing by Milton as far as I've said. As for the claims on Bullshido. Yeah.... alot of them sound wildly outlandish. But I'm not convinced Milton actually made all of them.

As for Milton being our premier NHB fighter... that's just you trying to cause trouble. No one has ever said that.

I'm not trying to cause any trouble. He was the person that was being represented on the HFY108 forum as a HFY-trained person who had competed and won a lot of NHB fights -- would this not make him a premier HFY NHB fighter? If not, what would? Are there other HFY NHB fighters with a "better" record than Milton? Is he a "second-tier" HFY HNB fighter?


PS -

FWIW, Savi, I appreciate you sharing the info on HFY. :) However, questions do arise that pertain to HFY outside of your posts or in discussion relating to your posts. I think these are fair game.

[canglong]

originally posted by t_niehoff
Some of my views are fact.
If you would have said all then there would be no need to continue this conversation but since you didn't seems we have room to move forward possibly without you interupting with your views on HFY that you have no experience to base them on.
originally posted by t_niehoff
If you mean HFY and what is in its curriculum, then I agree. However, on issues like what "measures functionality" a person doesn't need to know HFY -- it's the same across the board.Again this is your opinion because you are using ability as a measuing tool for functional.
originally posted by t_niehoff
Of course there are some big, strong, naturally tough guys out there that can give anyone trouble. I've met some. But fighting skill comes from fighting. No other way.
Note you didn't say fighting skill comes from sparring. This is the point of contention that makes it appear as if your argument is disingenuous because a good portion of the members on this board do spar but they advocate learning and training things unique to the system they practice in conjunction with that sparring this means their results are a direct mix of their learning and sparring. This seems to be something you disagree with but that part of your argument is just your opinion but you keep stating it as fact.
Sparring and fighting are 2 serperate activities as you just eluded to and in your previous arguments you would substititute sparring for fighting when no one here is arguing that fighting skill doesn't come from fighting only that your idea of substituting sparring for fighting can be an illusion for some without some of the necessary knowledge to accompany their time spent sparring.
originally posted by t_niehoff
So while HFY may have some formula which provides some guidance for you in application, without sparring there can be no functionality.Sounds as if you feel ability comes through osmosis.
originally posted by t_niehoff
Sparring/fighting is the core skill-building activity of any fighting method, and a person's skill level will be directly related to the amount of quality sparring they've done.See you just did it again!
originally posted by t_niehoff
The usefulness of anything, including the wing chun formula, can only be determined via results (in sparring). Seldom is only one factor used to determine anything and without experience all you are left with is opinion.
originally posted by t_niehoff
By "good young talent" do you mean touted HFY "fighter" Milton Wallace?No I am thinking that there may be several good young fighters out there that you have never heard of but by your standards you wouldn't go hear them speak and it would be your loss.

[duende]

I'm not trying to cause any trouble. He was the person that was being represented on the HFY108 forum as a HFY-trained person who had competed and won a lot of NHB fights -- would this not make him a premier HFY NHB fighter? If not, what would? Are there other HFY NHB fighters with a "better" record than Milton? Is he a "second-tier" HFY HNB fighter?


PS -

FWIW, Savi, I appreciate you sharing the info on HFY. :) However, questions do arise that pertain to HFY outside of your posts or in discussion relating to your posts. I think these are fair game.


We have alot of members. Some are indeed fighting in NHB or training to be. There's been some threads here about there successes... but I can't remember off the top of my head. As for the posts regarding Milton and NHB by a few HFY members... those posts only represent the individuals that posted them. Not an official HFY statement by any means.

FWIW, you never saw any post from me like those mentioned. Milton can speak for himself and in person... he doesn't need me or anyone writing about him online.

[taltos]

I'm fairly unimpressed when people play the "family" card.

To blur the lines of the relationship with "family" is IMO to open the door to the type of abuse that occurs in cults.

It can and does happen.

I know others feel differently, but I generally check my wallet's still in my pocket and politely refuse the kool-aid when a Sifu starts talking like this.

I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong), that the "like this" you refer to is the "like this" that you were implying with the Charles Manson reference. If that's the case... I agree.

I wasn't trying to play a "card." The way I interpret that quote is that there is a certain measure of decorum that everyone is entitled to ("family" here does not mean to me only those who train HFY, but anyone I come into contact with). It's an inclusive statement to me, not exclusive.

-Levi

[canglong]

originally posted by t_niehoff
I'm not trying to cause any trouble. He was the person that was being represented on the HFY108 forum as a HFY-trained person who had competed and won a lot of NHB fights -- would this not make him a premier HFY NHB fighter? If not, what would? Are there other HFY NHB fighters with a "better" record than Milton? Is he a "second-tier" HFY HNB fighter?
Typical of a Lawyer/sparring guy you spend way too much time trying to pry into other people's business. CSLWCK seems to be pre-occupied with weight classes and tiers all of a sudden why is that?

[Savi]

Saan Sau vs. System:

Over the years Grandmaster Garrett Gee has taught several different generations of students. In Kung Fu traditions, there are several ways to study a system. Here, we are discussing two different ways; Saan Sau and System. Through these two methods, there are also two different results.

The fact is, the Saan Sau method of learning is intended for one thing and one thing only; fighting. A person training under a Saan Sau format is not focused on learning the whole system, but only concerned about his/her ability to use it in real life and death fighting. There is a system to be completed in the Saan Sau format, but it is not the complete system of HFY.

People training from a System Approach have only one goal: preserve the system. In order to accomplish that goal, the ability to fight using the system is not the only requirement and is much more demanding in other categories as well. Here, I’m talking about being educated from system philosophy, history, and traditional kung fu culture. These areas are just as involved as the system itself, and it is no small task for they are all (including the fighting aspects) connected to each other. For the fighter, the only thing required is the comprehension and ability to fight using the system.

For this matter, to say that someone trained in a Saan Sau way is also supposed to finish the HFY system? I don’t think so. Terence infers this through his lack of understanding of HFY methods. Indirectly, that also means in GM Gee’s 30+ years of teachings that no one has finished the HFY system. That is inherit in Terence’s method of pressing his position on this matter. Without understanding this nature, one can only conclude that by Terence’s inference GM Gee is a lousy teacher, or that HFY is fake... looks like Terence is instigating. I'll address that in a following post.

Regarding videos:

In HFY traditions, the method of Hau Chyun Saan Sau is extremely crucial to the preservation of the system for future generations. The nature of this kind of teaching allows the receiver(s) to grow through the seasons with the things they are learning, figuring things out for themselves, and requires someone from the higher seals (described in the Sei Daai Yan earlier) to properly guide them through the system in a face-to-face format. The idea of recording things on video violates the Principle of this type of traditional teaching. Why? Videos cannot provide the necessary guidance and interactive feedback that is necessary for the nature of the information that exists and the method of teaching required to pass on that very material. Without Hau Chyun Saan Sau, there is no quality assurance and no guarantee that misinterpretation won’t occur. However, with the Sei Daai Yan and Hau Chyun Saan Sau there is no need for supplementary training tools like videos.

The late GM Yip Man was a traditional kung fu man. Many people have heard of the story between Bruce Lee and Yip Man. Bruce Lee offered his sifu a brand new apartment in the states so that he could finish the system under his sifu, but GM Yip Man refused. He refused because he knew that as a traditional kung fu man, his kung fu cannot be sold for a quick buck. His refusal is a testament to that very principle. Videos of GM Yip Man only surfaced after his death and were distributed around the world for many reasons.

As my Sibaakgung Duende even shared, a very wealthy person from San Francisco offered to privately learn and document the entire HFY system for Grandmaster Gee for $50,000 US dollars. For the exact same reason that the late GM Yip Man refused Bruce Lee’s offer, GM Gee is also a very traditional kung fu man who lives from a true sense of principle. To continue to press for the insistence of videos on HFY is really neglecting and disrespecting the will and right of the inheritor of HFY to preserve the system the way he sees fit. GM Gee’s strict adherence to the traditions of kung fu culture and the nature of the HFY system is also a testament to the strength of his honor, respect, and integrity to his ancestors and kung fu traditions.

So regarding the “mystery” of Hung Fa Yi, simply stated, there is no mystery. There is only tradition and preservation of the HFY system and no one else in the world has a say in how that is done except the inheritor of HFY. People who are seriously and sincerely interested in seeing HFY in action will actually take it upon themselves to see it in person. Anyone who says otherwise is obviously not serious enough to see for themselves. The problem arises when people like Victor say they aren’t interested enough (even after genuine offers to cover his travel and seminar expenses! One hell of a nice offer!) and rant and rant upon endless rant like a “raging rat in a cage” about how other people are this and that. But despite all his rage… ;) you know the rest.

[Savi]

Terence, you keep talking like your tip-toeing around something. What the hell is your point in asking all these kind of questions about who is “the premier HFY fighter?” and “who has finished the system?” and “who is qualified to present HFY?” and so on and so forth??? You got a big mouth, and the only thing I see in all your posts about HFY – for someone who has consistently professed his disinterest in HFY for years – is an INSTIGATOR. That’s all you are doing. There is no such thing as “fair game”. There isn’t even a game to be played. If someone tells you something is inappropriate, and you continue to press – that’s called disrespect. That's called violating someone's space. I’m telling you right now Terence, you are crossing lines and you’d better back off unless you want to restart another war. I have no problem at all giving you my undivided attention.

So answer my question if you will: What is your deal, because those kind of questions are really none of your d@mn business. Do you want to instigate another war between the Hung Fa Yi Paai and Chu Sau Lei families??? I’m aware that you still have problems with Master Meng. I’m aware that Robert Chu called Master Meng and GM Gee over the phone in an ‘attempt’ to build bridges. But judging from your posts and Dave McKinnon’s posts at HFY108, you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it.

I’ve seen this before from Robert Chu. He’ll raise the white flag and surrender only to stab you in the back when you take your eyes off of him. Get this through your head: under no circumstances do we ever take our eyes off our enemies. Every time you mention HFY, you're gonna hear about your Sifu Robert Chu. Every time YOU instigate something negatively about HFY, you're gonna hear something else about Robert Chu. It will stop when you stop.

If you don’t want what I think you want you’d seriously better change your tone. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. Go visit HFY108.com and read again the thread about your Sifu “Robert Chu: Rumors, Lies, or Facts?”. The kung fu community knows what’s up with your Sifu, and I’m telling you that you are instigating against our family. Robert Chu has tried to sabotage our HFY family and future generations, and if you want to restart another WAR… you’d better believe I’m all for An eye for an eye. And Tom, I’ve something to say to you as well.

I can talk about HFY details all day long, but I can talk about politics too just the same. You want to discuss on this thread, tell me which one do you want? I'm asking you, Terence.

[Alan Orr]

Hi Tony

I'm not posting to join this thread. I just wanted to make one thing clear for you.

Quote from Canglong (tony)

Typical of a Lawyer/sparring guy you spend way too much time trying to pry into other people's business. CSLWCK seems to be pre-occupied with weight classes and tiers all of a sudden why is that?

Alan: I have talked with Milton via email a few times. He has been very polite and we have had no problem. We have talked of making an event. Now, in our chat all I said an NHB/MMA fight (not a wing chun match) would be hard work due to weight the difference. That was all what was said, I did not say I would not fight him because he was 60lbs more that me. In fact I train with bigger guys all the time. It seems someone (Savi) wants to make more out of that. So, let me up date your record. I will be more than happy to take on anyone of any weight to test my wing chun skills, if need be. NHB/MMA is a sport therefore the rules make the weight important, but I am always happy to put my skills to the test when I need too.

Weight classes for Wing Chun Chi Sao comps are a good idea to allow everyone to enter and test out what they can do. But we will also have an open weight as well. Simple.

Since all this Talk I have, as you know met with Benny and we have seen a better way to deal with past problems. No more Internet rumours etc. We have cleared the past issues.

Benny and my teacher have now let the past be the past. The only two people who seem to want to continue this is You and Savi. Always bring back quotes. Savi is more or less telling Terence that if he talks about HFY then he will start his kids stuff again. Why not let everyone have his or her own views and just agree to disagree sometimes. Easy.

If you or Savi feel the only way you can let go of this, is to put your wing chun to the test. Then please let me know, I would be happy to help. Rather than drag the hold world into your personal hate. Benny has shown he is a man of his word, you guys may think your defending HFY, but you are making HFY look bad.

Please note this is just a statement on the above quote, I would rather not get into a debate on the subject. It is just hearsay from your end. I hope that clears the point. The 108 forum has become much better; lets not pull it back a step.

Walk on.


Regards

Alan

[canglong]

The idea of recording things on video violates the Principle of this type of traditional teaching.All martial arts have their individual tradtions and HFY is no different. Some people seem to want to make an issue out of none issues by making things complicated when in fact they are really simple. In martial arts you have written history, specific culture, and oral traditions. Though when people come together to discuss these things people can and often will disagree. this is par for the course and most of the members here posting have come to accept that.
What is abnormal in these conversations is the disire of some to complain. No one on this thread has the ability to produce a video DVD or otherwise market HFY if they wanted to and to think we know all about the inner workings of the HFY business dealings would be naive on our part. It does no one any good to complain about things they have no control over. Family business is just that family business. At this point Victor and to a certain degree Terence you both are complaining about things none of us here have any control over or little experience with and that discussion is only bogging down the thread in unnecessary chatter. If you wouldn't visit a seminar why try an convince someone you would buy a DVD.

[Matrix]

No sweat.... he learned some YM from a Chris Chan student. That's why I mentioned YM.Duende,
No problem at all. :cool: I believe that Milton even calls it YM. I'm just saying that from my understanding, it's YM-like but then again different.

Peace,
Bill

[Savi]

Alan, I've just got one thing to say to you.

Terence is the one instigating. I'm calling him on it, and if you wanna call my response to him kid stuff... you're entitled to your opinion but don't think for once that I am the one trying to restart things. I'm not the one instigating. I'm letting him know the consequences of his actions. If Terence tells me I've got him all wrong, then let him deal with it and mind your own business.

[canglong]

Please note this is just a statement on the above quote, I would rather not get into a debate on the subject. It is just hearsay from your end. I hope that clears the point. The 108 forum has become much better; lets not pull it back a step.Alan,
I am just answering Terence if you are offended by what I said then you have only yourself to look at as to why you might feel that way. I am looking for your message to Terence who brought up that issue anyway but I don't see any if you want to blame eveything your family does on someone else then you will be on the internet night and day challenging every Randy Williams, Kenneth Chung and William Moy etc. that arise from your families past. That has nothing to do with me so good luck with that is all I can say.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Tony and Savi

I have not even read the rest of the thread.

All I noticed was the same old quotes starting again.

Time to move on or just arrange a fight.

The hole thing is a waste of time for all

Alan

[canglong]

I have not even read the rest of the thread.
Hey Alan stop trolling.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Tony

I didn't come to do that nor did I.

If anything I trying to keep people honest.

Alan

[canglong]

If anything I trying to keep people honest.
Alan,
If you feel the need to play self appointed moderator try some inhouse cleaning first.

[Savi]

Tom Kagan.

First of all, this thread is about the HFY SYSTEM; not about its personalities. But if you want to make it so... You'd better check yourself first.

You wanna come up here and talk about Milton Wallace. Let me tell you something about him. At the drop of a dime he’ll stand up to defend his Sifu. It doesn’t matter how long he’s trained or what things he does in his personal time, that’s not the point. His personal life is his own. BUT he’ll rise to the challenge in an instant to defend the honor of his Sifu and the HFY. I don't give a d@mn about what anybody else says about him online or offline. He’s got three things that you don’t: Honor, Integrity, and Loyalty. That's the bottom line, and I'll explain it to you.

Where the hell have you been all these years when Robert Chu called Moy Yat a “con-man”??? Did you ever stand up for the late GM Moy Yat about that? Did you ever stand up to defend him? And you wanna call yourself a student of his? I am a grand-student of GM Moy Yat and I still hold great respect for him. I defend his honor to this day because I respect my roots. I may not have known him as much as his closest students, but I respect the contributions he has given to the Wing Chun community as a leader, a scholar, an artist, and a martial artist. That’s all I need to know. There's a saying, "Respect the position, not the person". You're no soldier.

I owe my kung fu to my ancestors and all those leaders before me, but you? Where the hell is your Integrity? Where the hell is your Honor? Where is your Loyalty to Moy Yat Ving Tsun? You wanna talk crap about someone you don’t even know, now what does that say about you? You’re just a hater. You haven’t stood up for GM Moy Yat in all the years Robert Chu called him a “con-man” IN PUBLIC no less. You let him get away with it. You don’t even measure up to Milton. You’re just a waste of time. And you haven't even contributed to this thread; instead jumping on the bandwagon like a cheerleader.

If you aren't going to inquire about the HFY SYSTEM, then don't post on this thread.

Regards,
Savi.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Savi

Is this your method to cause problems? Everytime you post you bring up old quotes, rummors which are either out of context, personal issues or twisted comments to meet you view of the world.

I don't think it will bring you help and support.

Quote to Tom : Are you a soldier?

Do you still watch the A Team. LOL.

Listen, I have tried hard to bring some normal level of dabate back to our groups.

Trying to make my teacher look bad is not really going to get you anywhere. Again I think all you do is make HFY look bad it doing so.

Benny has already asked you to stop this type of stuff, but you still continue. Does that show respect to your family?

I have looked at the thread, it seems to me that you just don't like anyone who questions your posts. Thats life. It doesn't mean you have to have a fit and start attacking my teacher. Why not debate you point of view, then the thread will stay on the subject.

I would very much like to meet you one to one when I come to the US next. Lets make that happen.

Alan

[Savi]

Alan, you're pretty dense in the head.

My beef with Terence is about Terence and his inferences and instigations.

My beef with Tom Kagan is about Tom instigating issues with Milton, and not standing up for his lineage. I have issues with that because I am a descendant of the Moy Yat lineage also and take great honor in that.

These things have nothing to do with you, nor is it an attempt to create another war. I'm not the one putting the negative energy into the thread. You read the thread, you've said? Then you can see how it's Terence and Tom throwing negative energy at my family. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I am addressing the negative energy to "keep people honest" as you've said. If you wanna make it that way then you are blind, and don't blame me. Unless you want to talk about the HFY system, take a hike buddy. That way, you can stop twisting things and blaming others. You wanna help get things back on the educational track? Prove it.

[duende]

Hey Alan


Like I said on HFY108... the peace would only last until someone said something stupid.

In this case it's Terence's pressing of issues and making insinuations to the degree of being disrespectful.

In the hope of keeping things chill, I've done my best to answer some questions that are really none of Terence's business to begin with. Yet... he keeps on pressing.

So my advice to you if you truly want to stop wasting time is this:

1. Stop trying to direct HFY members... as you have absolutely no sway over any of us.

2. Focus your energy on Terence and communicate to him how he is being rude and jeopardising the truce you made.


I say this in good faith.... just like I answered T's questions in good faith.

That's more than fair in my book. There's no playing both sides of the fence here.

Otherwise, prepare yourself for a slew of negative posts. Not a threat... just stating the reality we all face.

[Savi]

Thank you the level-headed focus, Duende!

Everyone,
I'd be more than happy to move past all these issues. It would make my day to keep things positive and discuss things in a sharing format. I've stated as such in my first post on this thread.

However, if people continue to inject negative energy on this thread, then it has to be addressed in one form or another. This is my thread, yes. And I am and will defend my kung fu family when people cross the line. I will not allow people to insult HFY, or its members, if I can help it. That's not instigation, but honor. To say I am the one starting the problems is totally incorrect.

Positive Proposal... Terence and Tom, if you are so inclined as to answer my posts to you - then respond to it with a private message back to me to keep the thread clean. How does that sound?

I've really got some good info we could discuss on HFY Kiu Sau as JPinAZ has requested. I hope this is diplomatic/reasonable enough for everyone? Let me know.

Thanks,
Savi.

[Tom Kagan]

Have you ever actually met them in person? Have you ever trained with any of them, watched them fight, see them demonstrate there aptitude at Escrima, or Knife fighting?? Have you ever went for a beer and just hung out and chill??? I doubt it.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, no, yes.


I was the one who told Matrix that bringing Milton into this was unreasonable. However, if you think he's appropriate for this thread, by all means, explain it.

Or, you could just keep trying to make it about me.

[Tom Kagan]

My beef with Tom Kagan is about Tom instigating issues with Milton, and not standing up for his lineage. I have issues with that because I am a descendant of the Moy Yat lineage also and take great honor in that.


I'm not interested in "image." I'm interested in "performance." If "image" is your idea of what "honor" is in Martial Arts, it is obvious we have a great deal of distance between us on that issue.


Also, I did not bring Milton into this. In fact, I tried immediately to exclude him from this discussion when Matrix brought him up.

[duende]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, no, yes.


I was the one who told Matrix that bringing Milton into this was unreasonable. However, if you think he's appropriate for this thread, by all means, explain it.

Or, you could just keep trying to make it about me.

fair enough... I think that's enough on that subject for now.

[Tom Kagan]

Where the hell have you been all these years when Robert Chu called Moy Yat a “con-man”??? Did you ever stand up for the late GM Moy Yat about that? Did you ever stand up to defend him? And you wanna call yourself a student of his? I am a grand-student of GM Moy Yat and I still hold great respect for him. I defend his honor to this day because I respect my roots. I may not have known him as much as his closest students, but I respect the contributions he has given to the Wing Chun community as a leader, a scholar, an artist, and a martial artist. That’s all I need to know. There's a saying, "Respect the position, not the person". You're no soldier.


If Moy Yat was not a con-man, it shouldn't bother you at all what someone else claims because such a claim would be baseless. Accusations of such a sort speak of the person making them, not of the target of their fixation. He did his best not to concern himself with such trivialities.

Now, I learned to deal with these things in this fashion that long before I met Moy Yat. However, that's how Moy Yat also tried to teach others how to deal with the issue.

You are absolutely right, I am no "soldier" of Moy Yat. However, what lesson you appear to have not learned is he was no "General"; he was a Sifu.

Moy Yat is my Sifu, I am his ToDai - nothing more, nothing less.

[Wayfaring]

Some of all of the back and forth helps clarify positions. Some degrades to less quality posts. Personally it doesn't bother me.

However, I'd like ask Savi to post the Kiu Sau summary on a new thread he wrote up on HFY108. It's pretty good. I think the detail in it will spark some interest in other WC families.

In general if you want to post some quality discussion or details I'd recommend starting a new thread. Even if the thread degrades over time, the cool important stuff is on the first few pages, which are read first by those not involved in the back and forth.

[t_niehoff]

Terence, you keep talking like your tip-toeing around something.


You should know me better than to think that I tiptoe around anything. ;) This is a thread about HFY, and some things that have been said piqued my curiousity. If I have questions, isn't that just an opportunity for you to clarify your views on HFY and educate us?



What the hell is your point in asking all these kind of questions about who is “the premier HFY fighter?” and “who has finished the system?” and “who is qualified to present HFY?” and so on and so forth???


The point is I am trying to make sense of what is and has been said about "qualifications" in HFY. What is the big deal? Why not use my questions as a platform to enlighten us to HFY instead of getting defensive?



You got a big mouth, and the only thing I see in all your posts about HFY – for someone who has consistently professed his disinterest in HFY for years – is an INSTIGATOR. That’s all you are doing. There is no such thing as “fair game”. There isn’t even a game to be played. If someone tells you something is inappropriate, and you continue to press – that’s called disrespect. That's called violating someone's space. I’m telling you right now Terence, you are crossing lines and you’d better back off unless you want to restart another war. I have no problem at all giving you my undivided attention.


I didn't know you had the authority to declare war. ;) BTW, this "war" thing is just bad Shaw Brothers movie-stuff.

I'm sorry, but you can't tell me what topics are open to discussion or not. If you don't want to answer my questions, then don't. If you feel free to talk about HFY, then I feel free to ask questions about what is said. If you don't want the questions, then don't talk about it in the first place.



So answer my question if you will: What is your deal, because those kind of questions are really none of your d@mn business. Do you want to instigate another war between the Hung Fa Yi Paai and Chu Sau Lei families??? I’m aware that you still have problems with Master Meng. I’m aware that Robert Chu called Master Meng and GM Gee over the phone in an ‘attempt’ to build bridges. But judging from your posts and Dave McKinnon’s posts at HFY108, you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it.


Chill, dude. Why do you take this so seriously? Why do you see questions as a threat? Like I said, if you don't want to answer, or can't answer, then don't. BFD. If you want to use that question to elaborate and educate us, then do that.

FWIW, I have no "problems" with anyone -- and certainly not with anyone in HFY.



I’ve seen this before from Robert Chu. He’ll raise the white flag and surrender only to stab you in the back when you take your eyes off of him. Get this through your head: under no circumstances do we ever take our eyes off our enemies. Every time you mention HFY, you're gonna hear about your Sifu Robert Chu. Every time YOU instigate something negatively about HFY, you're gonna hear something else about Robert Chu. It will stop when you stop.


Calm down. Where have I said anything negative about HFY?

A HFY person brought up that only Gee could "represent the entire HFY system" and I asked questions to elaborate -- how is this negative?

Milton was touted on the HFY forum as some noted HFY fighter (is this not true? if you want me to, I can provide the links). How is asking about him saying anything negative about HFY?

Are you saying that my questions put HFY in a poor light? If this is the case, are you suggesting that unless I say good things about HFY or say nothing, that this is saying something negative?



If you don’t want what I think you want you’d seriously better change your tone. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. Go visit HFY108.com and read again the thread about your Sifu “Robert Chu: Rumors, Lies, or Facts?”. The kung fu community knows what’s up with your Sifu, and I’m telling you that you are instigating against our family. Robert Chu has tried to sabotage our HFY family and future generations, and if you want to restart another WAR… you’d better believe I’m all for An eye for an eye. And Tom, I’ve something to say to you as well.


My friend, you just don't seem to get that no one can sabotage HFY but the people in HFY. You are your results. Robert's past criticisms if they are untrue can be easily refuted -- all it takes is verifiable evidence. And if "the kung fu community knows what’s up with your Sifu", which I take to mean his criticisms are baseless, then you should be worry free. :)

I have left the HFY forum for good. But this is an open WCK forum. And if you want to talk about WCK here -- and HFY is WCK, right? -- then I or anyone can ask questions.



I can talk about HFY details all day long, but I can talk about politics too just the same. You want to discuss on this thread, tell me which one do you want? I'm asking you, Terence.

Talk about whatever you want. But I didn't realize that qualifications was a political topic.

[t_niehoff]

If Moy Yat was not a con-man, it shouldn't bother you at all what someone else claims because such a claim would be baseless. Accusations of such a sort speak of the person making them, not of the target of their fixation. He did his best not to concern himself with such trivialities.


Exactly, Tom. This is a mature view.

Let me share something I posted this on the HFY108 forum a while back:

"You may not like what Robert says or how he says it, but WCK is rife with
BS, fraudulent practices, false claims, people lying about lineages, people
lying about accomplishments, unskilled people claiming to be masters and
grandmasters, etc. -- and I'm not referring to HFY, just a general
observation. The business-as-usual-approach is for everyone to avert their
eyes and pretend these things don't go on. Everyone protects each other's
ricebowl. (Although they say bad things behind everyone else's back, just
not publically). It just perpetuates the practice. They even have a name for
it: mo duk.

Robert has tried to stir things up, to get people to see this sort of stuff.
The people complaining are the people who don't want these things brought
up. But like I said, if a person can prove the things they say, anything
Robert says would be water off a duck. If Robert says I'm not skillful, I
can show quite easily what my skill level is; if Robert says my
lineage/history is false, I can prove that quite easily with independently
verifiable evidence.

This stuff is able to go on because everything is "hidden" and kept under
wraps. It's all stories, reputations, legends, claims, etc. or demo, drills,
etc. You never see these things for yourself. Think sifu is really skilled?
Bring a mid-level MMA fighter to the school and have him mix it up with
everybody, including sifu - in front of all to see. See what sifu can really
do. After all, you're counting on him to teach you to fight -- so he should
be able to fight, right? Think sifu's lineage/history is accurate, have them
provide independently verifiable evidence of it. Is this disrespectful?
Asking to see evidence of claims, disrespectful? Well, it's not for boxers,
wrestlers, MMAists, BJJists, muay thai fighters, etc. Only in certain
"circles" is that considered "bad character". "

---------


For the record, I don't agree with Robert on everything. On some things we have very different views. And I think Robert has been unduly harsh in some instances of his criticism, while unduly lenient in others. He is also a New Yorker and tends to be direct and brusque in expressing himself. Some people may not like that; I find it refreshing. Another thing I really like about Robert is that he gets me thinking, looking into things myself, and evaluating things myself. I don't accept what he says as true, and he doesn't expect or want me to. He wants me to do my own work and reach my own conclusions. When I do, and if I reach a conclusion different than his, I tell him that he is full of sh1t and he just responds with a huge belly laugh. This is what I like most about Robert: he takes what he does seriously but doesn't take himself seriously. And that's rare.




You are absolutely right, I am no "soldier" of Moy Yat. However, what lesson you appear to have not learned is he was no "General"; he was a Sifu.

Moy Yat is my Sifu, I am his ToDai - nothing more, nothing less.

I find this "honor", "soldier", etc. stuff as being out of a bad kung fu movie. I train with a personal fitness trainer. If you "insult" him does "honor" require that I "defend" his name? I think these traiditional guys have it @ss-backwards -- the instructors should be working for us (we're paying them, right?), not us working for them! LOL! In other words, they are not our leader, they are our employee.

[anerlich]

"family" here does not mean to me only those who train HFY, but anyone I come into contact with). It's an inclusive statement to me, not exclusive.

Cool. Just exclude me, OK?

[taltos]

Cool. Just exclude me, OK?

No.

I can't bring myself to act without decorum towards someone for no reason. Sorry.

-Levi

[Alan Orr]

Hey Savi

Lets make a few things clear. I have no problem with HFY as a group. I have tried to bring a balance to the problems of the past. Benny has been a man of his word from the last time I met with him, I hope to see that continue and grow in a positive manner.

You on the other hand you continue to bring up your limited view points on the past.


RE:Terence is about Terence and his inferences and instigations.

Alan: Then why bring up the past all the time and why bring my teachers name into all the time. You just not man enough to say your own views. Terence just doesn't agree with you, BFD. If you are going to post your ideas on the forum, then some people will thank you and some people will not. Thats life. You don't have to then try to bring others into it to back you up.

RE: Alan, you're pretty dense in the head.

Alan:Is that all you can do? Make personal comments and be rude. Me and you now have a problem. This is outside the HFY debates. I am sick of your 'child like' rants.

You never answered my offer, lets test your skills one to one. I would like to see be rude to me when we are face to face.

This is a issue between you and me, it has nothing to do with our systems. I have said nothing concerning your views of kung fu. You have continued you rude comments to me, so back it up For Real.

Alan

[duende]

Hey Savi

Lets make a few things clear. I have no problem with HFY as a group. I have tried to bring a balance to the problems of the past. Benny has been a man of his word from the last time I met with him, I hope to see that continue and grow in a positive manner.

You on the other hand you continue to bring up your limited view points on the past.


RE:Terence is about Terence and his inferences and instigations.

Alan: Then why bring up the past all the time and why bring my teachers name into all the time. You just not man enough to say your own views. Terence just doesn't agree with you, BFD. If you are going to post your ideas on the forum, then some people will thank you and some people will not. Thats life. You don't have to then try to bring others into it to back you up.

RE: Alan, you're pretty dense in the head.

Alan:Is that all you can do? Make personal comments and be rude. Me and you now have a problem. This is outside the HFY debates. I am sick of your 'child like' rants.

You never answered my offer, lets test your skills one to one. I would like to see be rude to me when we are face to face.

This is a issue between you and me, it has nothing to do with our systems. I have said nothing concerning your views of kung fu. You have continued you rude comments to me, so back it up For Real.

Alan

Alan,

if by this post you are trying to single out Savi, then think again. You'd be hard pressed to find a HFY member who would agree with you in your asessment of Savi's posts. Terences posts, intentionally or not... did most certainly come off as an attack due to their repetition and insinuative nature.

Things got heated there for awhile.... yes. But now everyone has calmed down. In fact you can see that the discussion has resumed, and just now I even answered another of Terrence's questions.

In the interest of moving forward, how about we all let it go...

[Alan Orr]

Hi duende

As I said I don't have a problem with HFY as a group.

Understand this. I will not put up with anyone bad mouthing me or being down right rude.

I am happy if everyone can talk, debate, even agree or disagree. Thats what forums are for. I only ever questioned or debated points of view.

Savi made it personal by being rude to me. He's needs to grow up or put up.

I don't need to go on about it. I think it is clear what I think.

Maybe a lesson can be learned it people can debate or ask questions with being personal.

Regards

Alan

[Savi]

You're a real funny guy, Alan. Clearly, you are demonstrating that you cannot move forward. Now you wanna resort to a physical confrontation... :rolleyes:

You know, if you actually read my posts I've offered positive solutions to move the discussion forward. After reading your posts, it's obvious YOU are the one picking a fight. I've told you to leave the discussion if you've got nothing to add in a productive matter, but now you are trolling.


I have tried to bring a balance to the problems of the past...

You on the other hand you continue to bring up your limited view points on the past...

You just not man enough to say your own views. Not true. I only speak my mind, but since you aren't really reading the things I'm writing I can understand your frustrations. I can see how telling me I have "limited view points on the past" and that I'm not "man enough" shows how much you want to bring balance to problems. :rolleyes: No, not really... you're instigating. BIG TIME.


Terence just doesn't agree with you, BFD. If you are going to post your ideas on the forum, then some people will thank you and some people will not. Thats life. You don't have to then try to bring others into it to back you up. No, you're trying to spin things to make me look like the instigator. Terence and I aren't having a disagreement. We are seeking to understand each other's position on things. He's given me enough reason to look at his comments more objectively. Terence has demonstrated much more maturity in his responses than you have, and even offered more productive criticism. You're looking to pick a fight. If you think it is a "BFD", then take your own advice and mind your own business.


E: Alan, you're pretty dense in the head.

Alan:Is that all you can do? Make personal comments and be rude. Me and you now have a problem. This is outside the HFY debates. I am sick of your 'child like' rants.Alright, maybe calling you dense was a bit harsh but I didn't know your skin was that thin. And, no. I can do a whole lot more productive things in this discussion, if you stop trolling my thread. You've got a fixation on me, which I appreciate but don't really care Alan. You're just slowing the forward process and I'm sure people are very tired of waiting.


You never answered my offer, lets test your skills one to one. I would like to see be rude to me when we are face to face.

This is a issue between you and me, it has nothing to do with our systems.Wow, Alan... You are really over-reacting considering all I did was say you have a dense head. Could have been a reference to "Iron Head" training for all you know (and for all I know, too :rolleyes:).

And.... you're calling me "childish" but look at your reaction. I don't have the problem, you do. If you can't control your emotions just because someone called you dense, maybe you're the one that needs to grow up - and stop trolling my thread with your personal issue.


I have said nothing concerning your views of kung fu. You have continued you rude comments to me, so back it up For Real.Really? Nothing about my view of kung fu... do you read the things you've posted to me? That's funny, but it doesn't bother me at all. I'm guessing you're trying to talk tough, or adding some levity and humor perhaps? I can't tell.

Hey, Alan, just shoot me a pm about your dilemma with me so we can all keep this thread clean of personal issues. Thanks in advance!

BTW, stop trolling because that's not allowed and the moderators don't tolerate it.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Savi
Where the hell have you been all these years when Robert Chu called Moy Yat a “con-man”??? Did you ever stand up for the late GM Moy Yat about that? Did you ever stand up to defend him?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pointless. In all of Tom's posts referring to Moy Yat- there is nothing but admirable mature and measured respect for his sifu. He is apparently comfortable in his loyalty and doesnt seem to carry a chip on his shoulder.

I have never met Tom and I am not in the Moy Yat lineage.

joy chaudhuri

[canglong]

Alan,
Looks like we are starting to get back on topic here if you can see you're way to the sideline. We heard you everyone here got your point no need to drag that discussion on needlessly you have private messaging now or if any more perceived indiscressions occur you can take advantage of the feature and deal with things there.

[CHS]

Savi said: "...you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it..."

Savi,
Just to seek clarification. What do you mean by "Fu*kin' war"? Is it an open platform challenge (traditional way)?

Instead of spending so much time on the PC defending your view and your family, why not set the record straight once and for all with your "enemies" by meeting them face to face and perhaps settling it with a challenge?

I don't think internet is a good place to settle an issue with the people you have issues with because all of us are irresponsible in this environment. We just type behind the PC, type all we want without taking much responsibility of it.

Other HFY members, please allow Savi to respond without interjecting your views.

Thank you.

CHS

[Alan Orr]

Hey Savi

You are the king of spin. I was not on this thread to cause a problem at all.

If you never started with your spin on my teacher etc then I would have nothing to say.

It you where not rude to me then I would have nothing to say.

If you think you can put in the odd slander about my teacher then laugh it off then think again.

CHS has a point.

I have no dilemma at all, if you keep your posts clean of personal issues then no problem. If you continue with that type of post then you have a problem with me.

You may like to joke about it, but its easy to do that online.

Private messaging? If you want to say stuff about me on a forum then I will set out to clear it up on the forum.

Please continue your thread in peace if you can keep to the topic.

Alan

[canglong]

Private messaging? If you want to say stuff about me on a forum then I will set out to clear it up on the forum. Alan
Now you just sound plain paranoid.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Tony

Maybe I am.Who's trolling now

Alan

[canglong]

Maybe I am.Who's trolling now
Another paranoid statement made by someone who admitted he hasn't read the thread but continues to post so uuummm I'll have to say you.

[Alan Orr]

Tony

I have read the thread, but that was after. What is your point?

I'm not interested in your thread. It was only due to what was say concerning my teacher.

spin away

Alan

[anerlich]

To continue to press for the insistence of videos on HFY is really neglecting and disrespecting the will and right of the inheritor of HFY to preserve the system the way he sees fit.

Asking about whether someone has or will release info (or marketing, advertising, ..) on a particular medium isn't neglecting or disrespecting anyone's will or right. As I said to Duende, do you guys ever listen to yourselves?

Something Tony, the $5 man, said earlier, here could just as easily be said about Garrett Gee in this context if he REALLY feels that way:

"if you are offended by what I said then you have only yourself to look at as to why you might feel that way"

Some people need to grow thicker skins. Are we not martial artists who can take sticks and stones? But we have a hissy fit if someone inquires about info on DVD?


I can't bring myself to act without decorum towards someone for no reason. Sorry.


No one else on the thread seems to have a problem with such courses of action. I just don't want to be part of anyone's family. Perhaps, to draw a long bow the way Savi did abbout GG and DVD's, you ARE acting without decorum toward me for assuming that I would want to be part of your family and insulting my will and right to be excluded?

Yes, I listen to myself and that sounds stupid. But I'm basically paraphrasing other posters.

[Liddel]

This thread has gone to the dogs, IMO its due to the lack of identifiable information in the answers. They just seem very diplomatic, aluding to but not revealing HFY's POV.



Simply stated, HFY’s Wing Chun formula is a means to maintain consistency and functionality, structurally and mechanically, for the purpose of HFY study only.

This is a generic statement that can be applied to my VT and im sure most other MA's out there. In other words it doesnt give an outsider an insight into the specifics of HFY WC.



An example from a technological standpoint is its Kiu Sau platform. HFY’s Kiu Sau is based on principles of Time, Space, and Energy. Because of this foundation, HFY Kiu Sau allows the user to engage other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu without compromising the parameters of HFY operation.


This is the same generic info IM Humble O.
The only insight ive got (and im generally interested) is that you havent read anything on Einstein who showed that space and time are one in the same and are now refered to as an entity called spacetime. :o

As a sign of good faith ill discuss a point of my VT formula, and perhaps you could ellaborate on your own way with specifics.:rolleyes:

One of the main differences in VT formula between myself and other schools, is the principal of Crossing hands.
While some schools are not worried about crossing ones hands during Chi Sao, Poon Sao, Gor Sao and free fighting. Or as you put it VT "operation".

Our VT formula forbids it and sees it as an emergency situation.
This difference is concentrated on at the first stages of Poon Sao and in fact you can see the schools that are not concerned with it, actually intentionally doing it during Poon Sao training.
- The Bong Sao's palm and wrist crossing over the top of the fook Sao which is in contact with the opponents Tan.

This is but one difference between myself and other schools. Could you offer any similar circumstances that may give me insight into your way ?

DREW

[anerlich]

Liddell,

Crossing hands is a definite no-no in TWC chi sao also. Crossing up the opponent's hands is an offensive tactic for us.

I wouldn't say this is part of a "formula" - to me, the concept of an orthogonal set of principles, or theory, is to oversimplify WC. You need guidelines, not stone tablets.

Further on time, space and energy, quantum mechanics tells us that reality is probabilistic, not deterministic, and relativity tells us that there are no absolutes.

[Liddel]

Liddell,
I wouldn't say this is part of a "formula" - to me, the concept of an orthogonal set of principles, or theory, is to oversimplify WC. You need guidelines, not stone tablets.

I agree things should not be set in stone. When i write "forbidden" its more a case of intention. We still realise it can happen without our own input...we have theories/techniques in place to allow for this outcome. Our own Cosmilogical constant if you will :eek: :D

My purpose is to get some relevant info from this thread, whilst the crossed hands point is really a part of the whole formula, it's really just a segway to allow this thread to have more specifics discussed.

I want to hear the specific differences in HFY Formula to other VT schools.
Who knows, i may discover something i never thought of before......(being a positivist:rolleyes:)

DREW

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Liddel,
First off time and space coexist but can be described separately. Do you agree?
As for our formula, numerically they are described as (1) centerline (2) the two-line defense (3) the three reference points (5) the five-line concept (6) six gates. You put it best yourself "it doesn’t give an outsider an insight into the specifics of HFY WC." You really don't need our formula to understand your evolving formula that you mentioned on another thread.
And yes crossing center would violate the center line (1) theory we use as well. Again, our formula gives us our personal ID but not the methods me use, but much like time and space they coexist.

[duende]

I want to hear the specific differences in HFY Formula to other VT schools.
Who knows, i may discover something i never thought of before......(being a positivist:rolleyes:)

DREW

Hey Drew,

While I'm optimistic about your intentions here... the fact is that we have current students who have come from many many different lineages. I myself trained in YM, Savi was a Moy Yat Sifu. We also have students and Sifu's from CST, TWC, LT and etc....


All of us have found that HFY formula did not exist in the prior WC systems we studied.

In regards to specific differences.... well if you truly are interested, I invite you to visit one of our schools. We can continue discussing the information already presented, but beyond that I think we've already been more than generous with our WC system's information here.

So unfortunately you'll have to make due with the information we've shared already. :)

[CHS]

Hi Savi,
Will you please clarify your statement below?

If this is another immature internet-kid-stuff-quarrel, then you know it doesn't help resolving your issues with Terrence, Tom or Alan. Moreover, your irresponsible comment may give people bad impression about you, and more important, about your school (from the Mengsofaz site, you're the 2nd highest rank after sifu lowenhangen).

Again, it will be great if you can step up the plate and tell them how you want to handle this conflict. Hopefully, Alan, Terrance or Tom can live up to their end of bargains after your clarification....

CHS

"Savi said: "...you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it..."

Savi,
Just to seek clarification. What do you mean by "Fu*kin' war"? Is it an open platform challenge (traditional way)?

Instead of spending so much time on the PC defending your view and your family, why not set the record straight once and for all with your "enemies" by meeting them face to face and perhaps settling it with a challenge?..."

[Liddel]

Fair enough.
Read my post history duende - youll see im not into arguing or put downs.
PM if that suits you....

Id like to make it known that if i had the ability to visit i would, i live in New Zealand mate and as far as i can tell HFY isnt being taught here - hence my questions about it.

What sparked my interest the most, was they way each one of the HFY posters (yourself included) gave generalisations about your way that really fit right into what i have learnt.

I have my own "VT Formula" passed onto me by my Sifu, we have "layered learning", we dont have "seals" but the way you describe them they are very similar ways of learning to my VT, just more formal.

Although you have a seperated learning style - San Shou vs deeper stuff for those who want to teach etc...this is similar to my VT again.

Just like my Sifu, i had to become an assistant instructor to learn the proper(or traditional to some) way to teach our style etc etc...

All the generalisations fit - so of course believing that you have different Formula but only give general insights i wanted to know specifics, plain and simple.

DREW

[duende]

Fair enough.
Read my post history duende - youll see im not into arguing or put downs.
PM if that suits you....

Id like to make it known that if i had the ability to visit i would, i live in New Zealand mate and as far as i can tell HFY isnt being taught here - hence my questions about it.

What sparked my interest the most, was they way each one of the HFY posters (yourself included) gave generalisations about your way that really fit right into what i have learnt.

I have my own "VT Formula" passed onto me by my Sifu, we have "layered learning", we dont have "seals" but the way you describe them they are very similar ways of learning to my VT, just more formal.

Although you have a seperated learning style - San Shou vs deeper stuff for those who want to teach etc...this is similar to my VT again.

Just like my Sifu, i had to become an assistant instructor to learn the proper(or traditional to some) way to teach our style etc etc...

All the generalisations fit - so of course believing that you have different Formula but only give general insights I wanted to know specifics, plain and simple.

DREW

That's super cool Drew. I'm glad that we share so many things in common.

Sounds like you study one cool system to me. :) Also sounds like your system has been quite successful in preserving it's Chinese KF Culture and Tradition. I for one believe that WC can maintain these traditions and yet still function in these less formal times.

Anyways, some people like to focus on differences... I'm not one of them. I enjoy meeting and working out with people from all systems... and styles. Unfortunately, sometimes politics just get in the way.

[duende]

Hi Savi,
Will you please clarify your statement below?

If this is another immature internet-kid-stuff-quarrel, then you know it doesn't help resolving your issues with Terrence, Tom or Alan. Moreover, your irresponsible comment may give people bad impression about you, and more important, about your school (from the Mengsofaz site, you're the 2nd highest rank after sifu lowenhangen).

Again, it will be great if you can step up the plate and tell them how you want to handle this conflict. Hopefully, Alan, Terrance or Tom can live up to their end of bargains after your clarification....

CHS

"Savi said: "...you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it..."

Savi,
Just to seek clarification. What do you mean by "Fu*kin' war"? Is it an open platform challenge (traditional way)?

Instead of spending so much time on the PC defending your view and your family, why not set the record straight once and for all with your "enemies" by meeting them face to face and perhaps settling it with a challenge?..."

CHS,

I fail to see what this has to do with you.

I'm curious though... what is your interest in the matter??

Fyi... it appears everyone has moved except you.

[canglong]

originally posted by t_niehoff
The business-as-usual-approach is for everyone to avert their
eyes and pretend these things don't go on. Everyone protects each other's
ricebowl. (Although they say bad things behind everyone else's back, just
not publically). It just perpetuates the practice. They even have a name for
it: mo duk.Who the hell died and made you the better business bureau chief of police. In a free market society you either buy or don't buy not buy or bad mouth those you disagree with. Because you don't see their merit doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You sound like a jilted jealous ex.
originally posted by t_niehoff
Robert has tried to stir things up, to get people to see this sort of stuff.So that is how you see things. Robert attended one TWC seminar before he stated TWC "is like having cheap sex" . Robert was too cheap to pay Master Moy Yat so he called him a "con man" out to make a buck then Robert turns around charges $100/hr and you defend him saying he deserves to get paid for his time. When Kenneth Chung was in Monterey park and Robert Chu was in Monterey Park Robert couldn't get out the park fast enough but everyone else's sifu should fight. Robert didn't even touch hands with Master Meng on that video you like to bring up he had a lot to say but wouldn't touch hands while the camera was on.
originally posted by t_niehoff
The people complaining are the people who don't want these things brought
up. But like I said, if a person can prove the things they say, anything
Robert says would be water off a duck.Actually the only people complaining are you and Robert Chu no one else is complaining about what other people do and how they choose to do it because they don't consider it any of their business so they don't care.
originally posted by t_niehoff
I think these traiditional guys have it @ss-backwards -- the instructors should be working for us (we're paying them, right?), not us working for them! LOL! In other words, they are not our leader, they are our employee.Like Savi was pointing out maybe its thinking like this which is the exact result of poorer and poorer teaching that you are so adamantly opposed to.

originally posted by t_niehoff
Bring a mid-level MMA fighter to the school and have him mix it up with
everybody, including sifu - in front of all to see.That is your d@mn answer for everything. You only have one answer because you don't realize how spontaneous a FIGHT is. You do a 9-5 then run by the gym to get a few rounds in. Real fighters are anticipating a fight from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to sleep. They fight to protect their neighborhood their friends and family and their personal property. They do it at work they do in parks they do it at school they do it in dark alley ways and they do it in silence.

Terence you talk way too much to be a fighter so those coveted results you are always referring to are an illusion. They are sparring results and based on rules and sportsmanship and nothing spontaneuos at all that would resemble a real fight. To prove the point there are many older HFY members that live in SF and they all fight. Just because you have never heard of them tells more about you than it does about anything else. But since you brought up Milton's name let me tell you this most of the people you are talking to now are not long time HFY members so the banter going back and forth is something they choose to participate in and as such tolerate. This is not the case for HFY members like Milton, Bobby, Allen Chow, Matt and and some of the other older members you don't see them here because they don't talk they fight. So I would suggest you only address those names that address you. Because it is a fact that some people like to talk and some like to fight. Terence you obviously like to talk but the last message I got from Milton was that he was "going to pick him (Alan Orr) up and throw him out the ring you ain't got to worry about that mother f*ucker or anybody else for that matter". While Alan Orr is over in the UK there is plenty of time to pass before his next visit to LA so if you want that visit to go off without a hitch my advice would be not to p*ss off a known fighter. You want to see Milton when you get to LA and ask him about "tiers" keep mentioning his name and you'll not only get to ask him stupid stuff in person but you will also get to put every last ounce of Chu Sau Lei you ever learned to the test on that visit. That is just some friendly free advice take it as you will but remember your actions can and will have an effect on others.

[Wong]

Canglong write: Real fighters are anticipating a fight from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to sleep. They fight to protect their neighborhood their friends and family and their personal property. They do it at work they do in parks they do it at school they do it in dark alley ways and they do it in silence."

Wong write: That is not happy life. You can not be fight from wake up to sleep. You get paranoid and body and mental is harmed.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Tony

Who sounds paranoid:Canglong Quote: Real fighters are anticipating a fight from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to sleep. They fight to protect their neighborhood their friends and family and their personal property. They do it at work they do in parks they do it at school they do it in dark alley ways and they do it in silence."

LOL!



Canglong Quote: While Alan Orr is over in the UK there is plenty of time to pass before his next visit to LA so if you want that visit to go off without a hitch my advice would be not to p*ss off a known fighter. You want to see Milton when you get to LA and ask him about "tiers" keep mentioning his name and you'll not only get to ask him stupid stuff in person but you will also get to put every last ounce of Chu Sau Lei you ever learned to the test on that visit. That is just some friendly free advice take it as you will but remember your actions can and will have an effect on others.

Alan: You sound worried Tony. If your so ready why don't you meet up with me, bring Savi as well.

I talked to Milton today he never said anything about this. Why do you guys hide behind him. What is the deal?

Alan

[t_niehoff]

the fact is that we have current students who have come from many many different lineages. I myself trained in YM, Savi was a Moy Yat Sifu. We also have students and Sifu's from CST, TWC, LT and etc....

All of us have found that HFY formula did not exist in the prior WC systems we studied.


I have no doubt that the "WCK formula" is unique to HFY. And from what I understand, it is a conceptual construct that guides HFY practittioners in applying WCK.

My view is that conceptual constructs are not "truth" or "knowledge" (of reality) but a way of organizing or presenting information to assist a trainee in "putting things together" for themselves. All that theory does, and conceptual constructs like the "WCK formula" are theory, is provide a temporary guide for a trainee. As the trainee accumulates real experience (doing WCK, sparring/fighting) it will replace the theory (reality replaces theory). Once the theory has served its purpose, like so many other things in WCK, we need to let it go or it becomes self-limiting. The usefulness of any theory can only be determined, again like so many things in WCK, by the results a trainee achieves. This is, of course, an individual matter.

And this underscores one advantage to having different "lineages" IMO. Lineages are IME just different ways of teaching the same subject matter -- different curriculums, often with different emphasis, sometimes with a different slant or orgainzation of material, etc. As individuals have different needs, personalities, goals, etc., a person can find a currciulum (lineage or branch of WCK) to suit them. As much as I respect Robert and his teaching methods, for instance, I know it isn't best or even a good "match" for all people (in Robert's case, I think his approach suitsonly a very small minority of people). The same can be said for HFY, VT, TWC, WT. etc. If we keep in mind that the curriculum is not the subject matter, and that our theory is just our way of organizing and presenting material (and not "the" truth), we can all repect and better understand each others perspectives.

[JPinAZ]

T,
I disagree completely. Sparing/fighting is a way to TEST the theories in a live environement.
If HFY is to be done correclty, and with maximum efficiency, the information in the HFY Formula should be pressent throughout every step the fight (in most circumstances). Knowing and understanding (mind and body) the theroies/concepts/principals supports the actions! You don't just ignore and discard them because you've been a few fights or did some sparring. Once they are a part of you they don't leave you, and there should be know reason to throw them away... you only do that with things you can't prove work for yourself...

Basically, the formula gives us a guide to our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points). For HFY to work with 'maximum efficiency' and address T/S/E properly, you can't ever 'let it go'. Perhaps you don't have exerience with it, so really can't know what it is you are even talking about?

Would you let go of the CSL fully body structure?

Jonathan

[canglong]

originally posted by alan orr
You sound worried Tony. If your so ready why don't you meet up with me, bring Savi as well.
I talked to Milton today he never said anything about this. Why do you guys hide behind him. What is the deal?Alan,
Unfortunate for you who want to challenge HFY I believe were the words you used you don't get to pick and choose your opponent HFY will do that.
Worried no concerned for your safety yes. At this very moment I have no idea if you talked to Milton or not that doesn't matter but what I do know is that if you did and he told you it was all good it's because he doesn't want to scare you away from making the trip to LA because he is not intereseted in going to the UK to find you. So you can post on here like you are the only person that talked to Milton but rest assured you are not. If you are not sure what the quotations marks I used mean you might want to find out. If you did talk to Milton you know he is a no nonesense type of guy who finishes off his sentences with, so when we gonna fight. Don't believe me thats fine with me the only reason I brought it up was to remind Terence but since you always want to see your way into the conversation I am reminding you as well. Interent antics are one thing calling Milton Wallace out to come visit you is another that a person should not do frivolously.

[Wayfaring]

This is a generic statement that can be applied to my VT and im sure most other MA's out there. In other words it doesnt give an outsider an insight into the specifics of HFY WC.
DREW

Dude,

If you're that interested in specifics of the HFY WC formula, buy the MKF book. It has a whole chapter dedicated to it. It has origins, explanations, details, and pictures. Chapter 5, p. 75-83.

Discounted down to $15 on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Kung-Fu-Featuring-Shaolin/dp/0736045686

If you can't bring yourself to fork out $15, I for sure am not going to retype the chapter. My billable rate is higher than that :D

[Wayfaring]

My view is that conceptual constructs are not "truth" or "knowledge" (of reality) but a way of organizing or presenting information to assist a trainee in "putting things together" for themselves. All that theory does, and conceptual constructs like the "WCK formula" are theory, is provide a temporary guide for a trainee. As the trainee accumulates real experience (doing WCK, sparring/fighting) it will replace the theory (reality replaces theory). Once the theory has served its purpose, like so many other things in WCK, we need to let it go or it becomes self-limiting. The usefulness of any theory can only be determined, again like so many things in WCK, by the results a trainee achieves. This is, of course, an individual matter.

I guess to say this in a fashion I can understand and buy into is once you've ingrained the formula in to your body karma or hardwired it so you see it in your sparring (or see the sup ming dim - 10 bright points rather), then actually going through the excercise and concept is less necessary.

Yeah. All right. One way to see if it's ingrained yet or not is to turn up the heat or the pressure. Does sparring maintain the formula, or does it get abandoned to degrade to an unskilled brawl?

If you are calling reality versus theory the same thing that I would call understanding something conceptually in your mind where you can visualize it (theory) versus understanding it in your body karma hardwired (reality) then I agree with you.

Maybe some of this is in defining our terms?

[Wayfaring]

Regarding squabbles going back and forth - sometimes Internet forum disagreements remind me of a camp fire. If you want the fire to go out stop making trips to the wood pile.

[osprey3883]

Terrence wrote-

My view is that conceptual constructs are not "truth" or "knowledge" (of reality) but a way of organizing or presenting information to assist a trainee in "putting things together" for themselves. All that theory does, and conceptual constructs like the "WCK formula" are theory, is provide a temporary guide for a trainee. As the trainee accumulates real experience (doing WCK, sparring/fighting) it will replace the theory (reality replaces theory). Once the theory has served its purpose, like so many other things in WCK, we need to let it go or it becomes self-limiting. The usefulness of any theory can only be determined, again like so many things in WCK, by the results a trainee achieves. This is, of course, an individual matter.

Terrence,
From my experience as a student, as well as someone helping people to better understand HFY, I have found that when someone is struggling with applying HFY they are not expressing the WC formula. In my mind the WC formula is the underlying engineering that makes the HFY structures functional, once you go outside the boundries of the formula the structures are not as effective. Without the ability to express HFY structures correctly, the supporting concepts go right out the window. IMO it is much like a auto manufacturer deciding that although the nuts and bolts are good, that once the car is built they are no longer necessary. So in HFY much of our beginning layer of training is geared towards building the WC formula into someone both mentally and physically.

Matt

[CHS]

Duanne said:

CHS,
I fail to see what this has to do with you.
I'm curious though... what is your interest in the matter??
Fyi... it appears everyone has moved except you.



Good morning Duanne,
Of course the seriousness of Savi in starting a war concerns everyone, including me, in the forum.

I, and others, would like to see constructive debates of the WC topics instead of personal insults and repeated finger pointing (although it was instructed by his Sigung not to do so anymore. See below) :rolleyes:. If one chooses to go down this path, I would just like to see if the person is man enough to stand by his/her words. That starts with Savi. Otherwise, it is just another talk the talk, but NOT walk the walk...

Sure, it appears that everyone has moved.. so let it be. Thanks.

CHS



Master Benny said:

Tony,

In the middle of a real fight, one can not complain to the opponents and say that you are not reasonable, are not rationable and do not play fair. Do you know what I mean? Thats why to solve any problem the first step is to stop the fighting. Thats what I have done and I'm fully aware that the issue is still there. You still are pulling the triggers.

[canglong]

Wong write: That is not happy life. You can not be fight from wake up to sleep. You get paranoid and body and mental is harmed.Wong,
No one said it was happy but it is reality for some and some thoughts and ideas expressed on an internet forum do not reflect this reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5RSFDSl8Ow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRVH7KbmYx0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcYykqLtIQ

If you don't live in an area where it's possible for sh*t to jump off at the drop of a hat well then its not part of your reality but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most important in all of this discussion though is if you plan on calling yourself a fighter 2 things you should know. Never mistake the reality of your experience for the reality of someone else's experiences. Know your own limits if you don't or couldn't live in a place like those in the videos don't act like you do and don't act like you know.

[t_niehoff]

T,
I disagree completely. Sparing/fighting is a way to TEST the theories in a live environement.


Yes, it does "test" your skills but it is also how those skills are developed (into fighting skills).



If HFY is to be done correclty, and with maximum efficiency, the information in the HFY Formula should be pressent throughout every step the fight (in most circumstances). Knowing and understanding (mind and body) the theroies/concepts/principals supports the actions! You don't just ignore and discard them because you've been a few fights or did some sparring. Once they are a part of you they don't leave you, and there should be know reason to throw them away... you only do that with things you can't prove work for yourself...


You misunderstood me, I think. As a beginner I will not have any (good) idea how to "play the game". So theory gives me some guidance in how to play. By playing the game, I learn what things work best for me, what doesn't work so well, what I am comfortable at, and so on, and I will begin to do things replacing that generic theory on how to play with my own, individualized way to "play the game" that best suits me and my individual talents, skills, etc. No one can give you that. That comes from the hard work.

If you haven't done that hard work - spend hundreds of hours sparring with decently skilled people - you can't appreciate what I am talking about. That's not meant as a slight; it's just that without that experience a person can't really appreciate the process.



Basically, the formula gives us a guide to our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points). For HFY to work with 'maximum efficiency' and address T/S/E properly, you can't ever 'let it go'. Perhaps you don't have exerience with it, so really can't know what it is you are even talking about?


I'm sure that it's a fine theory and can guide you. I don't need to understand your theory. I understand the process anyone and everyone will go through in developing fighting skill -- we can see it plainly in all fighters, from boxers to wreslters to BJJ to muay thai to etc.



Would you let go of the CSL fully body structure?
Jonathan

That is a physical skill and not theory. And, even that, I use in my own way.

[t_niehoff]

From my experience as a student, as well as someone helping people to better understand HFY, I have found that when someone is struggling with applying HFY they are not expressing the WC formula. In my mind the WC formula is the underlying engineering that makes the HFY structures functional, once you go outside the boundries of the formula the structures are not as effective. Without the ability to express HFY structures correctly, the supporting concepts go right out the window. IMO it is much like a auto manufacturer deciding that although the nuts and bolts are good, that once the car is built they are no longer necessary. So in HFY much of our beginning layer of training is geared towards building the WC formula into someone both mentally and physically.

Matt

I see where you are coming from now -- and I see where part of my trouble understanding you guys comes from. I don't see WCK as comprised of "structures" but of dynamic, adaptable actions (there are no "structures" involved in throwing a ball). BTW, this is precisely my problem with Robert's use of the term "body structure" (and I've told him this) although I know why he uses it.

[canglong]

originally posted by wafaring
Yeah. All right. One way to see if it's ingrained yet or not is to turn up the heat or the pressure. Does sparring maintain the formula, or does it get abandoned to degrade to an unskilled brawl?
Would you let go of the CSL fully body structure?
Jonathan
originally posted by t_niehoff
That is a physical skill and not theory. And, even that, I use in my own way.
Terence,
What makes you think based on wayfarings statement that the formula is not physical skill?

[t_niehoff]

Regarding squabbles going back and forth - sometimes Internet forum disagreements remind me of a camp fire. If you want the fire to go out stop making trips to the wood pile.

Amen, brother!

[t_niehoff]

Terence,
What makes you think based on wayfarings statement that the formula is not physical skill?

Is it in itself an action? If not, then it is not a physical skill.

[canglong]

Answering a question with a question ok hendrik.
Did wayfaring just say he uses the formula in sparring?

[t_niehoff]

Answering a question with a question ok hendrik.
Did wayfaring just say he uses the formula in sparring?

You can use theory in sparring too (that's what theory is for, to help beginners in sparring). I said: if it is not a physical action in itself then it can't be a physical skill. So I ask you: is the "WCK formula" an action in itself?

[canglong]

So I ask you: is the "WCK formula" an action in itself?

ok the short answer, Yes

[t_niehoff]

ok the short answer, Yes

OK. But it seems other HFY people, like osprey3883, have differeing views (he wrote: "the WC formula is the underlying engineering that makes the HFY structures functional"). Engineering isn't a physical skill in my book. But perhaps you have a different understanding than he does.

[canglong]

Terence,
You miss understand the views because the formula drives HFY philosophy/theory, stategy and tactics and application/physical execution. The wing chun formula is HFY and when Hung Fa Yi was said to have been kept secret it was the Formula that is referred to as the what which was kept secret.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,
You miss understand the views because the formula drives HFY philosophy/theory, stategy and tactics and application/physical execution. The wing chun formula is HFY and when Hung Fa Yi was said to have been kept secret it was the Formula that is referred to as the what which was kept secret.

My friend, if you say it the "wing chun formula" is a physical skill, I can't argue with you; you obviously know more about the formula than I do. From what I understand the components of the formula are the centerline, the two-line defense, the three reference points, the five-line concept, the six gates and the five elemental battle arrays. This doesn't seem like a physical skill to me. It sounds remarkably like theory.

[canglong]

Putting the wing chun formula in action.
The wing chun formula postulates that if you make a fist thumb up and place your elbow one fist distance from your torso at just below the sternum on your ying line (nipple) that will be your strongest position for that shape and structure. Someone placing a hand over the made fist to begin pushing aginst that fist will react in certain predetermined ways if the elbow is inside the ying line then the incoming force will have the ability to take the structure in if the elbow is outside the ying line the structure can be taken out. When this shape and structure are kept on the ying line that arm is able to resist the incoming force of the push against the fist. The formula theorizes the strongest shape yes then it postulates how to move with these shapes and make them "dynamic" and then incoporates strategy/tactics and ultimately bundling all these traits in a manner that allows for them to be delivered in a way that espouses maximum efficiency.

[osprey3883]

I see where you are coming from now -- and I see where part of my trouble understanding you guys comes from. I don't see WCK as comprised of "structures" but of dynamic, adaptable actions (there are no "structures" involved in throwing a ball). BTW, this is precisely my problem with Robert's use of the term "body structure" (and I've told him this) although I know why he uses it.

Terrence,
IMO we are talking past each other. Understand that when I speak of structure I am not talking about a static posture. To go back to my car analogy, the engineering of a car is a number of structures designed to support each other, whether moving or stopped.


My friend, if you say it the "wing chun formula" is a physical skill, I can't argue with you; you obviously know more about the formula than I do. From what I understand the components of the formula are the centerline, the two-line defense, the three reference points, the five-line concept, the six gates and the five elemental battle arrays. This doesn't seem like a physical skill to me. It sounds remarkably like theory.

IMO the expression of HFY's WCF is absolutely a physical skill. Just like anything in combat, if it's just in your head you don't really have it.

Matt

[canglong]

The elbow position would be part of the "Sap Ming Dim" first you learn them through SNT then as Wayfaring was suggesting after you have the body karma/physical skill you should be able to express/apply the Sap Ming Dim or Formula in action while sparring and then ultimately when under pressure of a fight. Again these are things that are in the book also for more detail consult the entire chapter dedicated to the wing chun formula.

I guess the one thing I would take away from this conversation is to tell people that before you read the chapter realize that the formula is not static it is alive and dynamic as the term goes and that if you see it any other way while reading the chapter it is possible that you might misinterpret the chapter because you will only be reading it not seeing it the way you would in a class setting.

[t_niehoff]

Putting the wing chun formula in action.


Just your saying this tells me that the formula isn't a skill -- for example, you wouldn't say putting throwing a ball or riding a bike into action. It already is an action. You put theory into action.



The wing chun formula postulates


Theories postulate, skills don't.



that if you make a fist thumb up and place your elbow one fist distance from your torso at just below the sternum on your ying line (nipple) that will be your strongest position for that shape and structure. Someone placing a hand over the made fist to begin pushing aginst that fist will react in certain predetermined ways if the elbow is inside the ying line then the incoming force will have the ability to take the structure in if the elbow is outside the ying line the structure can be taken out. When this shape and structure are kept on the ying line that arm is able to resist the incoming force of the push against the fist. The formula theorizes the strongest shape yes then it postulates how to move with these shapes and make them "dynamic" and then incoporates strategy/tactics and ultimately bundling all these traits in a manner that allows for them to be delivered in a way that espouses maximum efficiency.

That's an interesting theory (really a theory built upon theories). And as you indicate, "the formula theorizes". So the "wing chun formula" is a theory and not a skill. Calling things by their proper name is important.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,
IMO we are talking past each other. Understand that when I speak of structure I am not talking about a static posture. To go back to my car analogy, the engineering of a car is a number of structures designed to support each other, whether moving or stopped.


Yes, I now understand what you mean. Tony has even elaborated on it. But I don't think you understand what I mean -- WCK skills in my view aren't like the design of an auto. Skill is like throwing a ball: you can't break throwing a ball down into a series of strong structures that support each other moving or stopped. That's now what is going on: it is one continuous action of the whole body working together to produce a result. You don't learn or develop greater ability to run by breaking it into various structures, then stringing them together, etc.



IMO the expression of HFY's WCF is absolutely a physical skill. Just like anything in combat, if it's just in your head you don't really have it.

Matt

It is not a physical skill, it is a theory you in HFY use to guide your movements in what you believe (theorize) is an effective manner (will help you develop skill), and you further believe that if you practice "sticking" to this guide long enough, that it will become second nature (something else that isn't necessarily true).

[Wayfaring]

Skill is like throwing a ball: you can't break throwing a ball down into a series of strong structures that support each other moving or stopped. That's now what is going on: it is one continuous action of the whole body working together to produce a result. You don't learn or develop greater ability to run by breaking it into various structures, then stringing them together, etc.


Not sure I agree. I'm a Little League coach that's worked pitching with several minor league MLB pitchers and a MLB ace pitching system. The pitching motion has 3 specific positions in it I teach: balance, power, follow through. There are specific checkpoints in each of these positions that every MLB pitcher has similar I've been taught to look for.

I specifically use a drill called "30-30" where my pitchers daily do 30 repetitions stopping at each of the static positions and checking the specifics I stress at each position. Then they do 30 repetitions stringing them together in a complete motion.

Every one of the boys I've worked with gains substantial velocity as well as accuracy throughout the season. I consistently have either the top or near the top pitchers every year in the league.

So yes, I think you very much can break down a continuous action of the whole body into a series of strong support structures, then string them together to train them in a fluid motion. Moreover I'm not sure of another way you can train it to ensure bodies go through optimal position in motion.

[canglong]

Everything is theory until you put it into action.
originally posted by t_niehoff
I don't see WCK as comprised of "structures" but of dynamic, adaptable actions (there are no "structures" involved in throwing a ball).Terence,
Have you ever tried to throw a football down field with your feet together instead of using the proper structure feet apart.
Theories postulate, skills don't.Skill is a direct result of something that was necessary to postulate in order for skill to materialize. The 2 are inseperably linked. Your opinion in this particular case seems to be more semantics than anything else.

No need to keep rehashing the fact that YOU as an individual see things different than others a couple of post is fine we get it YOU see things the way you see things. To me your statements are no different than saying all the tables in my house are red therfore all tables are red. No one is trying to change your view of wing chun just explain their different point of view. You on the other hand seem to want to hold the thread hostage to your views knowing you disagree.

[anerlich]

In a free market society you either buy or don't buy not buy or bad mouth those you disagree with.

Really? You obviously haven't seen much political advertising. And mustn't have read the parts of MKF on internet historians and Popular Wing Chun for some time.


Robert attended one TWC seminar before he stated TWC "is like having cheap sex" .

TWC *is* like cheap sex, but even better. Us TWC guys and gals love every minute of it!

Do you have to pay big bucks to get laid or something? I could understand why.


Real fighters are anticipating a fight from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to sleep. They fight to protect their neighborhood their friends and family and their personal property..

Real fighters anticipate fights in their dreams as well, and in any case sleep is for theoreticiians.


They do it at work they do in parks they do it at school they do it in dark alley ways and they do it in silence.

Now I think it's YOU that's confusing WC and cheap sex.

As I said to Savi and Duende, do you guys ever listen to yourselves? :rolleyes:


Terence you talk way too much to be a fighter

He does talk a lot and one sometimes wonders where he finds the time to fight. Unlike some, he has a basic understanding of punctuation.


If you're that interested in specifics of the HFY WC formula, buy the MKF book. It has a whole chapter dedicated to it. It has origins, explanations, details, and pictures. Chapter 5, p. 75-83.

This statement is correct. I wouldn't suggest that all will suddenly revealed. But as Savi said earlier, this book was, in part at least, an exercise in marketing and advertising.

[taltos]

No one else on the thread seems to have a problem with such courses of action. I just don't want to be part of anyone's family. Perhaps, to draw a long bow the way Savi did abbout GG and DVD's, you ARE acting without decorum toward me for assuming that I would want to be part of your family and insulting my will and right to be excluded?

Yes, I listen to myself and that sounds stupid. But I'm basically paraphrasing other posters.

LOL. Ain't semantics wonderful? But fair enough. by the definition I *think* you're operating under... I see where you're coming from.

In-Laws? Hmmm... maybe not... they can be even worse sometime. :)

-Levi

[Savi]

Hi Savi,
Will you please clarify your statement below?

If this is another immature internet-kid-stuff-quarrel, then you know it doesn't help resolving your issues with Terrence, Tom or Alan. Moreover, your irresponsible comment may give people bad impression about you... Irresponsible comment??? I don't think so CHS. If you are asking for a clarification and in the same post call it irresponsible, you've already made up your mind about what you THINK I mean. So what are you really asking me?


... and more important, about your school (from the Mengsofaz site, you're the 2nd highest rank after sifu lowenhangen). What's your point in trying to put me in my "place" by bringing up my position in my Sifu's school? To what degree of importance is my rank to you? If the impression I am giving off is that I don't put up with snide comments made by people who take no accountability or thought into the things they say to me makes my school look bad to you... so what?

I don't give a d@mn if someone wants to kill me, because I've got no problem standing up to protect my life. But no one will get away with insulting me.


Again, it will be great if you can step up the plate and tell them how you want to handle this conflict. Hopefully, Alan, Terrance or Tom can live up to their end of bargains after your clarification....There are no bargains between us, and FYI the world isn't made of free lunches.


"Savi said: "...you guys are going the right direction for another Fu*kin’ war. If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it..."

Savi,
Just to seek clarification. What do you mean by "Fu*kin' war"? Is it an open platform challenge (traditional way)?If you read my comment again, you might find that I am actually saying it's their move. How they decide to move forward will determine what happens next. I figured when I stated "If that’s what you want, then by all means have at it..." that the decision was up to them... clear enough for you?

[t_niehoff]

TWC *is* like cheap sex, but even better. Us TWC guys and gals love every minute of it!


LOL! It reminds me of the old Woody Allen joke: the psychiatrist asks Woody if he thinks sex is dirty. Woody says, "Only when it's good." ;)

[Wayfaring]

TWC *is* like cheap sex, but even better. Us TWC guys and gals love every minute of it!


And here I thought we were the only ones who did marketing. ;)

[Liddel]

If you're that interested in specifics of the HFY WC formula, buy the MKF book. It has a whole chapter dedicated to it. It has origins, explanations, details, and pictures. Chapter 5, p. 75-83.

Discounted down to $15 on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Kung-Fu-Featuring-Shaolin/dp/0736045686
If you can't bring yourself to fork out $15, I for sure am not going to retype the chapter. My billable rate is higher than that :D

Double the price because of the poor NZ dollar, add on Visa's cut and make me wait three weeks, when it could be summed up and explained by someone in the style here and now. :rolleyes: forgive me for thinking it was that easy :o

Honestly ive never had so much trouble trying to discuss another style...
Ive lost the will to know, i dont care anymore and the fact its being side stepped so much instead of just freelyand directly adressing the issue means to me it was a farse anyway.

Bottom line - it seems you guys are endulging the arguments more than what the thread was about... even after i offered my own way (or parts thereof) WTF
pitty because my intrest was ligit. :cool:

OUT
DREW

[Wayfaring]

pitty because my intrest was ligit.


PM me your address and I'll send you a book.

[drleungjohn]

Universal TWCK formula for Cheap Sex-

Fast
Simple
UnComplicated
Efficient
Economical
To the point
A Thrill
A Rush
An Ending
Satisfying

[Liddel]

PM me your address and I'll send you a book.

Check your PM Box.

[anerlich]

I don't give a d@mn if someone wants to kill me, because I've got no problem standing up to protect my life. But no one will get away with insulting me.


LOL. You guys crack me up.


And here I thought we were the only ones who did marketing.

Ah, but it was Robert Chu's alleged line, quoted by HFY marketing guru and horrendous abuser of punctuation, Tony Jacobs. Who needs to do their own advertising with Tony around to do it for us?

Actually it's pretty low of Tony to "tell on" Robert like a scumbag kid going to his teacher. Except that sex sells and it'll probably make TWC even more popular. You can't buy this sort of publicity.


Universal TWCK formula for Cheap Sex-

Fast
Simple
UnComplicated
Efficient
Economical
To the point
A Thrill
A Rush
An Ending
Satisfying

Knowing as GM Cheung likes mnemonics and acronyms, and there's a F, U and A in there, maybe we could come up with a list of attributes that could be abbreviated to: F***ING A!

There's no sex like cheap sex!

[canglong]

He does talk a lot and one sometimes wonders where he finds the time to fight. Unlike some, he has a basic understanding of punctuation.That will come in handy when Terence is getting his @ss handed to him by Charles Simonyi.

originally posted by anerlich
Ah, but it was Robert Chu's alleged line,
You say alleged because that's what Terence would like people to believe.

originally posted by t_niehoff
But like I said, if a person can prove the things they say, anything
Robert says would be water off a duck. Terence,
Invited the statement by insinuating that the statements could not be proven.

[Savi]

Double the price because of the poor NZ dollar, add on Visa's cut and make me wait three weeks, when it could be summed up and explained by someone in the style here and now. :rolleyes: forgive me for thinking it was that easy :o

Honestly ive never had so much trouble trying to discuss another style...
Ive lost the will to know, i dont care anymore and the fact its being side stepped so much instead of just freelyand directly adressing the issue means to me it was a farse anyway.

Bottom line - it seems you guys are endulging the arguments more than what the thread was about... even after i offered my own way (or parts thereof) WTF
pitty because my intrest was ligit. :cool:

OUT
DREWHey Drew,
I just read this (which is June 5th, Tuesday morning here) and I don't know if my brother Wayfaring and you are taking care of it already, but I'd be more than happy to send you the MKF book also.

The technical questions on this thread can be difficult to get to when there are so many other off-tangent things going on, but no problem.

I could tell, and greatly appreciate, your comments and questions were sincere, and if you still have any inclination, I'd be MORE than happy to take some time to give you some input on your questions here. let me know...

Regards,
Savi.

[CHS]

I was browsing the HFY108 forum a little bit this morning, and found my posting and reply there. How interesting..

OK, let me clarify this without creating further mistrust between HFY and Robert's family. I don't know any WC, and don't belong to any WC school. I practice Karate and grappling for 20 years, and am interested enhancing my skills with WC concepts. So, Op108WC, please do not assume I belong to Robert's family just because you think I am an instigator. ok? If HFY teaches a way of life too as most of the members preach, then I think you have a lot more to learn....

What if your sifu knows me, what if he doesn't? What is your purpose here? ...

I personallly think it is a legitimate question to ask if there's any HFY video or why Master Gee is the only person who can make the video. In my opinion, although video may not describe every details, it is another good tool to learn and evaluate without spending a lot of resources. I, for one often download grapping, judo or karate videos from Youtube and learn a great deal from it too. From the HFY family tree published in HFY site, there are 9th, 10th or 11th HFY generation. Why aren't 10th or 11th generation members authorized to make a video? These are questions and can be answered without resulting in personal attacts.

Maybe HFY family got off a bad start with the rest of WC and you constantly have to defend and justify your art and family.. Could it be due to your claim that HFY is the "original" WC from Shaolin and other "superior" formula/concepts that they don't have that somehow offended them?

I don't claim that I am a big fan of Robert's family too. They also said bad things about you and your family.

I think HFY is a wonderful art and has a lot to offer. Maybe one day (if time permit) I will go learn it too.

Thanks... CHS




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by CHS
... and more important, about your school (from the Mengsofaz site, you're the 2nd highest rank after sifu lowenhangen).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only thing I see in all CHS posts about HFY -- "He is an INSTIGATOR from Robert Chu's camp".


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's your point in trying to put me in my "place" by bringing up my position in my Sifu's school? To what degree of importance is my rank to you? If the impression I am giving off is that I don't put up with snide comments made by people who take no accountability or thought into the things they say to me makes my school look bad to you... so what?

I don't give a d@mn if someone wants to kill me, because I've got no problem standing up to protect my life. But no one will get away with insulting me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Right on! Savi, does Sifu Lowenhangen know anything about this charecter "CHS" ?

[t_niehoff]

I was browsing the HFY108 forum a little bit this morning, and found my posting and reply there. How interesting..


I don't think that stuff is interesting at all -- I think it is the work of people who like to talk behind other people's backs, safely among their own little clique, Where people like CangLong (Tony) is a moderator, etc.



OK, let me clarify this without creating further mistrust between HFY and Robert's family. I don't know any WC, and don't belong to any WC school. I practice Karate and grappling for 20 years, and am interested enhancing my skills with WC concepts. So, Op108WC, please do not assume I belong to Robert's family just because you think I am an instigator. ok? If HFY teaches a way of life too as most of the members preach, then I think you have a lot more to learn....


You have now become a defacto member of "Robert's family" -- for some small minded, cowardly people, anyone who voices disagreement with someone in HFY or HFY's theory/legend must be someway related to Robert Chu and his conspiracy to destroy HFY. If anerlich doesn't watch it (based on what he says about Tony and Savi), he'll soon be a member too. ;)



What if your sifu knows me, what if he doesn't? What is your purpose here? ...


Yeah, let's stop and think about that one. As you post here on this forum, why does anyone who disagrees with your view not post their disagreement here? Why run behind your back to the HFY108 forum? And if they disagree with you, why not discuss it rather than try to redicule -- which is what their comments amount to -- you in "secret"? Just what sort of people do these kinds of things? What is their purpose?



I personallly think it is a legitimate question to ask if there's any HFY video or why Master Gee is the only person who can make the video. In my opinion, although video may not describe every details, it is another good tool to learn and evaluate with spending a lot of resources. I, for one often download grapping, judo or karate videos from Youtube and learn a great deal from it too. From the HFY family tree published in HFY site, there are 9th, 10th or 11th HFY generation. Why aren't 10th or 11th generation members authorized to make a video? These are questions and can be answered without resulting in personal attacts.


Of course these are legitimate questions. Gee apparently learned the entire HFY "system" in the course of five years -- he's been teaching for thirty. No one has attained a level where they can represent his stuff on video? Yet, some can teach classes, do seminars, recruit people, etc.? And as you point out, videos are made of every other martial art. We all understand that face-to-face teaching is ideal, but video can explain and demonstrate a lot. And if you are willing to do a seminar or demo, why not a video -- why not video the seminar or demo?

You are getting this treatment because you are asking questions that make some people uncomfortable in the sense that they have difficulty answering your questions without sounding silly -- so you must be trying to descredit HFY!

What they don't get is that it is not the questions that discredit HFY, it is the actions, which includes the making of claims, by HFY people that discredit HFY. The only people who can discredit and sabotage HFY are the people in HFY. And people doing things like we are discussing are doing a great job at making it look bad.

[tjwingchun]

Please pity the ignorance of someone with 33 years practicing Wing Chun, 24 years teaching it professionally, a degree in Microbiology and a qualified secondary school (11-18) science teacher, I have plodded through this thread and have read alot of talk about science and formula but the impression I get is all history, politics or philosophy.

Science is simply how things work and should be unwrapped from the language of the 'ists who try to make themselves seem intellectual and superior by the use of big words, it should be clear and obvious so that anyone, even if they do not have an in depth background in the subject in question, can comprehend and understand the processes involved.

I visited the www.mengsofaz.com and home.vtmuseum.org sites and though I found both interesting the theories hinted at seemed to me to be just simple application of commonsense and use of body mechanics in violent confrontations (my definition of all that Wing Chun represents).

I remember Yip Chun (my Sigung) telling me of the alternative Tan Sau Ng history over 20 years ago as I related my doubt as to the reality of the Yim Wing Chun myth, but in my mind that is history and I am quite willing to leave that research to the historians.

I justify everything I do in teaching Wing Chun using scientific principles and concepts, add my own theories and then leave it for the student to come to their own opinion, I have always recommended them visiting other schools, whether Wing Chun or any other style they have an interest in, knowledge is power and the more informed you are, the better able you are to make the most appropriate decision when asked.

As a scientist, I deal with fact, the formulae that I use often are mainly Newtonian, proved over hundreds of years and simply understood, my preferred equation is that of kinetic energy, this tells us that it that it is the velocity of an object that has most impact on the result not the mass, double the mass and you double the kinetic energy, double the velocity and the energy increases exponentially.

Fighting is not rocket science, but saying that the teaching of it is complex as it involves the understanding of how individuals develop, that there are clear stages that they go through, not just physically but physiologically and psychologically (sorry for the big 'ists words I suppose I should have said muscle, reflex and attitude!).

When someone walks in through the door looking for instruction it is always easy to impress using experience and hand speed, to me it is more important to show in terms that they understand what they can achieve and the timescale that it can be realistically learned. So they can visualise the path they can take if they have the perseverance.

Wing Chun is simple, though it has taken me over 30 years to realise the level of simplicity that can be achieved and I dare say in another 10 years it will become clearer. I would say leave the battle of the forefathers to the ghosts and let us just try to become a family, the infighting will always be there such is the way of families, whether between siblings or generations, but then again what the hell if you cannot put up shut up, lol. :eek::D:rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

Of course these are legitimate questions. Gee apparently learned the entire HFY "system" in the course of five years -- he's been teaching for thirty. No one has attained a level where they can represent his stuff on video? Yet, some can teach classes, do seminars, recruit people, etc.? And as you point out, videos are made of every other martial art. We all understand that face-to-face teaching is ideal, but video can explain and demonstrate a lot. And if you are willing to do a seminar or demo, why not a video -- why not video the seminar or demo?

You are getting this treatment because you are asking questions that make some people uncomfortable in the sense that they have difficulty answering your questions without sounding silly -- so you must be trying to descredit HFY!

What they don't get is that it is not the questions that discredit HFY, it is the actions, which includes the making of claims, by HFY people that discredit HFY. The only people who can discredit and sabotage HFY are the people in HFY. And people doing things like we are discussing are doing a great job at making it look bad.

T, I'm not going to address the first half because it realy doesn't have anything to do with me. The part I did quote is all crap and you know it. Everything above has already been addressed a few times in several threads here. Maybe you didn't like the answers, but they were honest attempts to bring some clarity to those not familiar with the HFY system & family. Did you forget all of the past 2 weeks worth of posting?? Now you're just trolling and starting crap. If you have a problem with any of the answers about videos, who can represent the 'entire' HFY system, etc that's your problem - it has nothing to do with CHS.

CHS, I appreciate the honesty in your last post. Hopefully, you can gain a little more understanding about HFY here and HFY108, even if you have to sift through the stuff you don't agree with :)
If you don't mind, can you give us a little more information about yourself, if even a name? I personally always like to know at least the first name of people I am having discussions with. If you are uncomfrotable with that, that's cool too.
Where abouts in the US do you live, maybe there is a HFY kwoon or club near you so that you could get a closer look?

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

T, I'm not going to address the first half because it realy doesn't have anything to do with me. The part I did quote is all crap and you know it. Everything above has already been addressed a few times in several threads here. Maybe you didn't like the answers, but they were honest attempts to bring some clarity to those not familiar with the HFY system & family. Did you forget all of the past 2 weeks worth of posting?? Now you're just trolling and starting crap. If you have a problem with any of the answers about videos, who can represent the 'entire' HFY system, etc that's your problem - it has nothing to do with CHS.


Jpnathan, it has to do with Chee since he got rediculed behind his back on the HFY108 forum for asking and trying to make sense out of why only Garrett could make a video.

I remember your and other's attempts to explain why Gee and only Gee can do it. And quite frankly, the reasons given don't make much sense. But, of course, you guys can do whatever you want, sensible or not. :)

I'm not trolling because some of the cowardly, behind-the-back-talkers that posted crap about Chee on the HFY108 forum did the same thing to me (did you see my post on CangLong?). And, of course, they try to bring Robert into it too.

And, Jonathan, while we're at it, why do you stand for that sort of behavior from these people? Why only chastize me, and people outside of your "family"? Those sorts of guys are giving you, by association, and HFY, a bad name. Do you want to be "brothers" with cowards, back-talkers, concpiracy theorists? They are the trolls. Go talk to them.

[tbone]

I don't think that stuff is interesting at all -- I think it is the work of people who like to talk behind other people's backs, safely among their own little clique, Where people like CangLong (Tony) is a moderator, etc.



You have now become a defacto member of "Robert's family" -- for some small minded, cowardly people, anyone who voices disagreement with someone in HFY or HFY's theory/legend must be someway related to Robert Chu and his conspiracy to destroy HFY. If anerlich doesn't watch it (based on what he says about Tony and Savi), he'll soon be a member too. ;)



Yeah, let's stop and think about that one. As you post here on this forum, why does anyone who disagrees with your view not post their disagreement here? Why run behind your back to the HFY108 forum? And if they disagree with you, why not discuss it rather than try to redicule -- which is what their comments amount to -- you in "secret"? Just what sort of people do these kinds of things? What is their purpose?



Of course these are legitimate questions. Gee apparently learned the entire HFY "system" in the course of five years -- he's been teaching for thirty. No one has attained a level where they can represent his stuff on video? Yet, some can teach classes, do seminars, recruit people, etc.? And as you point out, videos are made of every other martial art. We all understand that face-to-face teaching is ideal, but video can explain and demonstrate a lot. And if you are willing to do a seminar or demo, why not a video -- why not video the seminar or demo?

You are getting this treatment because you are asking questions that make some people uncomfortable in the sense that they have difficulty answering your questions without sounding silly -- so you must be trying to descredit HFY!

What they don't get is that it is not the questions that discredit HFY, it is the actions, which includes the making of claims, by HFY people that discredit HFY. The only people who can discredit and sabotage HFY are the people in HFY. And people doing things like we are discussing are doing a great job at making it look bad.Maybe you missed the part where they said it was Gee's decision to not make videos. they also said that he's the head of the organization so it's his decision whether to make videos or not. No one else has the necessary authority to make that decision. As to why he doesn't want to make a video, I read their answer to that too. He's a traditional man and one of the traditions of the system is to have face-to-face training and not on video.

Sounds like answers to me. Maybe you think its stupid or whatever but they have answered the questions about videos.

[JPinAZ]

Jpnathan, it has to do with Chee since he got rediculed behind his back on the HFY108 forum for asking and trying to make sense out of why only Garrett could make a video.

I remember your and other's attempts to explain why Gee and only Gee can do it. And quite frankly, the reasons given don't make much sense. But, of course, you guys can do whatever you want, sensible or not. :)

I'm not trolling because some of the cowardly, behind-the-back-talkers that posted crap about Chee on the HFY108 forum did the same thing to me (did you see my post on CangLong?). And, of course, they try to bring Robert into it too.

And, Jonathan, while we're at it, why do you stand for that sort of behavior from these people? Why only chastize me, and people outside of your "family"? Those sorts of guys are giving you, by association, and HFY, a bad name. Do you want to be "brothers" with cowards, back-talkers, concpiracy theorists? They are the trolls. Go talk to them.

This is EXACTLY why I did not adress the first part - it doesn't have anything to do with me - it is a personal issue you have with other members form HFY - not with me. If I agree/dissagree with how they do things, I could talk with them (either on a forum or in private -I have that option since I see them on a regular basis) - I don't need your guidence my 'friend'.

Go back and re-read the part of your post I DID quote - you still havn't adressed the continued whining you were displaying because you aren't happy with the answers you were given.
Here, in case you already forgot:
"Gee apparently learned the entire HFY "system" in the course of five years -- he's been teaching for thirty. No one has attained a level where they can represent his stuff on video? Yet, some can teach classes, do seminars, recruit people, etc.?"

"And as you point out, videos are made of every other martial art. We all understand that face-to-face teaching is ideal, but video can explain and demonstrate a lot. And if you are willing to do a seminar or demo, why not a video -- why not video the seminar or demo?"

Again, all of this was answered, and in great length! It seems you did not like the answers you were given and are still whining about it (or just choose to ignore the answers). It's obvious that you have a severe problem/attachment with HFY, both the system AND it's members in general, regardless how many time you bat your innocent eyes and try to say otherwise. So that means you're trolling.

"You are getting this treatment because you are asking questions that make some people uncomfortable in the sense that they have difficulty answering your questions without sounding silly -- so you must be trying to descredit HFY!"

I get the distinct feeling this is what you HOPE is happening, because then your mission to start trouble and antagonize HFY would be successful. But this is FAR from the truth.

"What they don't get is that it is not the questions that discredit HFY, it is the actions, which includes the making of claims, by HFY people that discredit HFY."


Oh really?? what 'claims' are you refferring too T? And what 'HFY people' are you talking about?? Qualify your statements! Otherwise, it's trolling..

JP

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Okay, everyone enough is enough. This thread is no longer serving any useful purpose. I am closing the thread and would ask that no one try to start another one simply to continue the senseless bickering.

Each lineage has something to offer and none should be subjected to surrender their own viewpoints in favor of satisfying everyone else. That being said, some lineages do seem to be a bit less forthcoming than others and should keep this in mind as well when some appear skeptical.