Fighting vs Training

[Fu-Pow]

I'd like to throw out an idea I had about training vs. fighting....because I have something to say ;)

My thought is that you should learn to fight as efficiently as possible but train like you are the most inefficient motherfocker ever born.

The problem I see with MMA is that they fight (at least the stand up portion) in a very inefficient way...this is partially dictated by the rules but also by the kind of macho attitude that surrounds it (ie I will out muscle, out cardio, out endure my opponent.)

The problem I see with the TMA is that there is this underlying assumption of "one hit ,one kill." That you're not going to have to go even 1 round let alone 10 because of your amazing skill.

But even the most skilled will one day meet there match and you may have to go for many rounds.

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

[Samurai Jack]

I like the theory. It's been well established that where sport fighters beat so called traditionalists hands down is in the conditioning and live sparring department. If you throw in these methods with your traditional training, you have a much better chance of coming out on top against a conditioned opponent.

It still amazes me when I hear someone say that they don't need to run, weight train, spar, whatever... because they study so-and-so's amazing system of ancient fighting.

It's beyond me why people will profess to be a martial artist, yet not constantly seek to improve themselves in any way they can. People of this ilk are not really traditionalists. They are hobbyists.

[boshea]

...

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

Hi Fu-Pow,

I only have experience with two external styles (Northern Shaolin and Muay Thai), and in both cases the class did jogging and/or skipping rope, and calisthenics, with some (lesser) emphasis on weight training. The "warmup" was pretty intense, and especially in the early days, I was pretty much beat before the lesson even began. From what I have heard of other schools, this is typical of external styles. I always assumed that the purpose of this was to prepare us, as you are suggesting, to be able to deal with a more strenuous situation than would usually be required in a realistic fight, so that you would have the endurance to fight strong for the duration of the fight.

On the other hand, while teaching the actual techniques, both in Shaolin and Muay Thai, my instructors always emphasized being relaxed and conserving engergy. They explained that the techniques are designed to avoid having to "muscle" through kicks and punches -- instead making use of balance, body mechanics and momentum. Is that what you are asking?

Cheers,
-brian

[boshea]

Woa...



Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: *******, soon to be ***
Posts: 2,909


Fu-Pow, I think you joined the KFM forum around the time that the Internet came into existence! (and suspiciously close to the start of the epoch for a certain OS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time)...)

Unless there's a bug in the system... ;)

(Sorry for the off-topic post, but Fu-Pow's inbox is full so I couldn't PM him!)

[Samurai Jack]

It's a bug. Happened when the forum switched servers a few years ago.

[PangQuan]

interesting for sure.

the only thing that comes to mind for me is that sometimes you will be outclassed, and in not being able to end the altercation/bout quickly, you will want to have trained as well in being able to last not only with your conditioning but with good defense. while of course we are all going to train our defenses to be as good as we can get them, we would surely want to have the knowledge of techniques available when in a very defensive position to be able to also wear your opponent down. some of this knowledge will not be in effeciency of combat in the sense of ending the fight quickly.

i guess in short what im trying to say is that sometimes knowing what you can do with basic motor skills when your gassed against someone far better than you can be of some value as well.

its hard to be effecient when you have very little energy. its nice to be able to handle that as well. though im not saying you would want to spend too much focus on this aspect.

just trying to add to the thread :D

[SevenStar]

I'd like to throw out an idea I had about training vs. fighting....because I have something to say ;)

My thought is that you should learn to fight as efficiently as possible but train like you are the most inefficient motherfocker ever born.

The problem I see with MMA is that they fight (at least the stand up portion) in a very inefficient way...this is partially dictated by the rules but also by the kind of macho attitude that surrounds it (ie I will out muscle, out cardio, out endure my opponent.)

The problem I see with the TMA is that there is this underlying assumption of "one hit ,one kill." That you're not going to have to go even 1 round let alone 10 because of your amazing skill.

But even the most skilled will one day meet there match and you may have to go for many rounds.

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

[SoCo KungFu]

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

I'm not sure what he was talking about but I've seen a few fighters (I don't pay any attention to names) with some striking issues. Usually not the head liners. Its usually the guys that the commentators describe as the "brawlers" as opposed to boxer, MT fighter, whatever other striker description. That or the guys that are new to MMA but come from a wrestling background and have only been training striking recently. Is it just me or do the guys coming in from BJJ/jiu-jutsu seem to be more collected in their early fights? (not to mean better, brute rage can be just as helpful. But just more loose and tactical it seems)

Anyways, the biggest thing that gets me is when those guys lob those long arching punches that I honestly don't know how they connect. I mean, they hit hard and like a truck, when the do land its usually KO or the opening needed to get in for a KO. But yeah, its like they are chambering their punches at their kneecaps.

While we're on the subject. I don't pay much attention to the rules and stuff since I don't really watch much T.V. and here martial arts in general let alone MMA gets little coverage. But, is it illegal to use open palm strikes in MMA comp? I never see anyone throwing em. But if they let knees and elbows I don't see why a palm shot would be illegal. Or is it just the MT/boxer makeup of most of the striking and that those sports do not use palm strikes? Just wondering, since you know....coming from a Tiger background palm strikes are kinda my thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another.

MMA train the best they can for their environment.

Personally I don't agree with some of their methodologies, but they train for their sport.

[JiuJitsu]

sanjuro_ronin

"MMA train the best they can for their environment"

MMA schools compared to how traditional schools train will be better prepared for any environment. How do the traditional schools honestly train better for the street. Their compliant non alive static training methods give a false sense of what can be pulled off in a real situation.

The MMA guy while not practicing "deadly" moves practices his punches/kicks etc with resistance as well as his grappling, so he knows what he can do under pressure and so will be able to use those tools in any environment where the opponent is resisiting.

I have done traditional styles most of my life, I did karate for 4 years, then kung fu for 6 years and then wing chun for 3 so I am aware of how the traditional styles train. I am now a BJJ brown belt and teach MMA in South Africa. The way we train will have my students able to defend themeselves on the street in less then a year. I couldn't say the same for any traditional style I studdied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin

"MMA train the best they can for their environment"

MMA schools compared to how traditional schools train will be better prepared for any environment. How do the traditional schools honestly train better for the street. Their compliant non alive static training methods give a false sense of what can be pulled off in a real situation.

The MMA guy while not practicing "deadly" moves practices his punches/kicks etc with resistance as well as his grappling, so he knows what he can do under pressure and so will be able to use those tools in any environment where the opponent is resisiting.

I have done traditional styles most of my life, I did karate for 4 years, then kung fu for 6 years and then wing chun for 3 so I am aware of how the traditional styles train. I am now a BJJ brown belt and teach MMA in South Africa. The way we train will have my students able to defend themeselves on the street in less then a year. I couldn't say the same for any traditional style I studdied.

Not sure what your point is...
What is you stated is old news...
The posters stated that HE found that MMA train "ineficiently", I stated they train for their sport combat environment, which is what MMA is, sport combat.

[JiuJitsu]

sanjuro_ronin

"Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another."

This is what u said, so I want to know how do you train differently for the street, give me an example of the traiing you do that will prepare you for the street, compared to the MMA guys sport training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin

"Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another."

This is what u said, so I want to know how do you train differently for the street, give me an example of the traiing you do that will prepare you for the street, compared to the MMA guys sport training.

Intent, weapons, surface difference and time ( or lack thereof).
And by the way, what I do IS "MMA", as you can probably tell by my profile.
By the way, if you think that training with "aliveness" and resisting opponents is new or unique to MMA, you need to get out more.

[TenTigers]

"The more one sweats in practice,
the less blood is shed in times of war"-Chinese Proverb

"Sweat more, Bleed less"-seen on Everlast sweatshirts, and posters

"Train Hard, Win Easy"-seen on a locker room wall.

[Fu-Pow]

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

I started this thread when I had just rolled in from a long plane trip so let me clarify something.

I guess I'm presenting a false dichotomy here because its not really a MMA vs TMA issue its more of an internal vs external issue. Internal MAs train for maximum efficiency where as external martial arts train techniques that are less mechanically efficient but also train the conditioning that goes along with it.

My point is that in terms of techniques one should train for maximum efficiency, both in terms of the technique executed and HOW it is executed (ie body mechanics).

But it is foolish to think that you will not need some kind of "inefficiency" training because, frankly, everyone makes mistakes and those little mistakes translate into
big inefficiencies.

So it doesn't matter if you train MMA or TMA. The point is that you ALWAYS be working toward greater efficiency and economy of motion in your technique but at the same time training cardio, strength, endurance for when you are less than efficient or economical.

The problem arises when we stop working towards greater economy/efficiency and just assume that we need to increase our endurance, strength, etc. to sustain what we are doing in terms of technique. This is not necessarily a problem endemic to TMA or MMA specifically.

So the question is should be getting a "great workout" from training our technique? Or should be working out separately and then training our technique to NOT be a "great workout."


FP

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is training and then there is practice.

[xcakid]

There is mantra that is used in every firearms weapons training I have ever taken. From the military training to civilian training. And I believe this applies to MA as well.

"Train the way you'll fight, fight the way you train"


The problem with that is we really can't full train on kicking knees, eye pokes, and various other Chin Na or full contact applications. Whereas in firearms training you can shoot actual bullets at targets, moving and static. Various run and gun drills using live round and obstacles such as clearing a house. As well as tactical shooting comps with varying stages such as shooting from inside a car, from a house window, prone position from underneath a car, etc. For a more realistic feel the military has MILEs gear and us civies have paintball.

So it would depend on what you want out of MA. If you want to stay fit. Then a normal class outta do ya. If you want to fight then work on application and fight more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is mantra that is used in every firearms weapons training I have ever taken. From the military training to civilian training. And I believe this applies to MA as well.

"Train the way you'll fight, fight the way you train"


The problem with that is we really can't full train on kicking knees, eye pokes, and various other Chin Na or full contact applications. Whereas in firearms training you can shoot actual bullets at targets, moving and static. Various run and gun drills using live round and obstacles such as clearing a house. As well as tactical shooting comps with varying stages such as shooting from inside a car, from a house window, prone position from underneath a car, etc. For a more realistic feel the military has MILEs gear and us civies have paintball.

And yet, those can only HELP develop the skills and NOT the mindset.
Only way to get "dangerous hands" is to engage in "dangerous practice".

[xcakid]

And yet, those can only HELP develop the skills and NOT the mindset.
Only way to get "dangerous hands" is to engage in "dangerous practice".

Tell that to the US Military. After all they only play "games" and shoot at paper targets before going to actual combat. Yet it is only on rare occassion you find a soldier freezing up when shot at or put in a life or death situation.

The mindset is based on the individual. The human basic instinct of self preservation takes care of mindset when put into a life or death situation. Skills learned augments that so that the act of deffense/offense comes without thought.

But if we are talking about ring style fighting, then that is based on the person drive. Not everyone want to fight in a ring or have the drive for it. Yet everyone you meet wants to live, well maybe 99% of the population do. Thereby they have the mindset for survival and only in need of further training in skillset to give them an above par chance.

If you look at the number of full contact fighters vs MA practitioner, you will find that not all MA'ist want to fight full contact. So by choosing to fight in the ring, you are already in a mindset of competing. So now what's left is training a skillset to give you a leg up and confidence. Confidence will give you the drive.

My 2 pesos on the subject. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tell that to the US Military. After all they only play "games" and shoot at paper targets before going to actual combat. Yet it is only on rare occassion you find a soldier freezing up when shot at or put in a life or death situation.

The mindset is based on the individual. The human basic instinct of self preservation takes care of mindset when put into a life or death situation. Skills learned augments that so that the act of deffense/offense comes without thought.

But if we are talking about ring style fighting, then that is based on the person drive. Not everyone want to fight in a ring or have the drive for it. Yet everyone you meet wants to live, well maybe 99% of the population do. Thereby they have the mindset for survival and only in need of further training in skillset to give them an above par chance.

If you look at the number of full contact fighters vs MA practitioner, you will find that not all MA'ist want to fight full contact. So by choosing to fight in the ring, you are already in a mindset of competing. So now what's left is training a skillset to give you a leg up and confidence. Confidence will give you the drive.

My 2 pesos on the subject. :cool:

I saw some of the US military in Bosnia, outside the SF guys, not sure were you get that info of yours.
Paintball and real bullets become quite different when the guy next to you loses part of his face.

But, in truth, we do what we can with what we have available to us.
And as of right now, this is the best we got and we MUSt make use of it.
MMA is the closest we can get and by doing that, we are one step closer.

[IronWeasel]

How do the traditional schools honestly train better for the street. Their compliant non alive static training methods give a false sense of what can be pulled off in a real situation.

Not ALL CMA schools use 'static' or 'compliant' training methods.




I have done traditional styles most of my life, I did karate for 4 years, then kung fu for 6 years and then wing chun for 3 so I am aware of how the traditional styles train.

The traditional styles in YOUR AREA seemed to have trained this way, but perhaps a different school would have been the better choice for your CMA.

[SevenStar]

I'm not sure what he was talking about but I've seen a few fighters (I don't pay any attention to names) with some striking issues. Usually not the head liners. Its usually the guys that the commentators describe as the "brawlers" as opposed to boxer, MT fighter, whatever other striker description. That or the guys that are new to MMA but come from a wrestling background and have only been training striking recently. Is it just me or do the guys coming in from BJJ/jiu-jutsu seem to be more collected in their early fights? (not to mean better, brute rage can be just as helpful. But just more loose and tactical it seems)

Anyways, the biggest thing that gets me is when those guys lob those long arching punches that I honestly don't know how they connect. I mean, they hit hard and like a truck, when the do land its usually KO or the opening needed to get in for a KO. But yeah, its like they are chambering their punches at their kneecaps.

a lot of the guys you are referring to, as you surmised are grapplers, not strikers. there are guys that are good at both, others are not. that's not an inefficiency in mma though, only in the particular fighter's training. However, CMA is no stranger to long, arcing strikes.


While we're on the subject. I don't pay much attention to the rules and stuff since I don't really watch much T.V. and here martial arts in general let alone MMA gets little coverage. But, is it illegal to use open palm strikes in MMA comp? I never see anyone throwing em. But if they let knees and elbows I don't see why a palm shot would be illegal. Or is it just the MT/boxer makeup of most of the striking and that those sports do not use palm strikes? Just wondering, since you know....coming from a Tiger background palm strikes are kinda my thing.

palm strikes are legal. Heck, in the earlier days, there were venues where you couldn't hit with the fist - you could only use the palm.

[SevenStar]

The problem arises when we stop working towards greater economy/efficiency and just assume that we need to increase our endurance, strength, etc. to sustain what we are doing in terms of technique. This is not necessarily a problem endemic to TMA or MMA specifically.

So the question is should be getting a "great workout" from training our technique? Or should be working out separately and then training our technique to NOT be a "great workout."


FP

train them both simultaneously. I think this is where combat sports excel. bagwork, sparring, padwork, drilling, etc. is tiring and will build your endurance at the same time you are perfecting your technique. You don't have to do them seperately, however if you are training for competition, it is reccomended that you do outside conditioning as well.

I think it's a bad assumption to think that because you are conditioning you are not focusing on being efficient. the two don't have to be inversely proportionate.

[SevenStar]

Not ALL CMA schools use 'static' or 'compliant' training methods.




The traditional styles in YOUR AREA seemed to have trained this way, but perhaps a different school would have been the better choice for your CMA.

this is part of what I consider a problem. Why are different schools and styles doing different things? you can go into two WC schools that train completely differently. sport styles, IMO are more aligned with eachother than that. I can go to ANY kickboxing school in my city and expect the same thing - calesthenics, bagwork, mittwork, technique drilling and at least light sparring. I can go to ANY bjj school in my city and expect to see the same thing. Judo schools tend to differ, but I am guessing that is because some clubs are more recreational, while others are more competition oriented.

[MasterKiller]

Tell that to the US Military. After all they only play "games" and shoot at paper targets before going to actual combat. Yet it is only on rare occassion you find a soldier freezing up when shot at or put in a life or death situation.

I read a study that suggested only about 20% of soldiers in a firefight actually engage the enemy correctly. The rest either hide or shoot wild without aiming because they are afraid of getting shot themselves.

[xcakid]

I saw some of the US military in Bosnia, outside the SF guys, not sure were you get that info of yours.
Paintball and real bullets become quite different when the guy next to you loses part of his face.



I'm prior military. I have friends that are still active and is/was in Afghanistan. I have a friend that is also prior military and is working for a private security company and have been in Nigeria, and currently working in Iraq. All attest to training skills provides reflexes that functions without thought in a life or death situation. "Train how you fight, fight how you train" If you train in grappling, you will grapple in the streets while that dudes buddy you are grappling with stabs you. Or the rest of his buddies jump you. That is a street fight. That is the survival territorial mindset. If you like to kick high, as in TKD fighter, you will kick high in the streets and more likely be knocked on you a$$ and be jumped on.

Again ring mentality is different from survival mentality. Although I admit there are common traits. Ring mentality follows rules and there is someone there to save your a$$. The referee. Training for survival is basic instinct. Everyone is born with survival instinct. Training hones that survival instinct. There is no one to save your a$$ when you tap out in a TRUE survival situation.

Some survival instincts are stronger in others. You can't teach that. Everyone has a breaking point. Much like a conscious chose to fight in the ring and just training traditional MA. Some breaking points is seeing your buddies brain being blown out, some have higher tolerance as in: "Well he got his brain blown out, dumba$$ should never stuck his head up. I'm not gonna do that" While another person will freeze up upon seeing that. Yet both will have the same training in their military careers and experience.

You can see this in normal training. One guy will use every excuse possible, when another guy will suck it up. You can't teach that. You cant beat the other guy into a "mindset" of sucking it up. He already has a certain mindset.


Aww crap what was my point again :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I read a study that suggested only about 20% of soldiers in a firefight actually engage the enemy correctly. The rest either hide or shoot wild without aiming because they are afraid of getting shot themselves.

Pretty much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm prior military. I have friends that are still active and is/was in Afghanistan. I have a friend that is also prior military and is working for a private security company and have been in Nigeria, and currently working in Iraq. All attest to training skills provides reflexes that functions without thought in a life or death situation. "Train how you fight, fight how you train" If you train in grappling, you will grapple in the streets while that dudes buddy you are grappling with stabs you. Or the rest of his buddies jump you. That is a street fight. That is the survival territorial mindset. If you like to kick high, as in TKD fighter, you will kick high in the streets and more likely be knocked on you a$$ and be jumped on.

Again ring mentality is different from survival mentality. Although I admit there are common traits. Ring mentality follows rules and there is someone there to save your a$$. The referee. Training for survival is basic instinct. Everyone is born with survival instinct. Training hones that survival instinct. There is no one to save your a$$ when you tap out in a TRUE survival situation.

Some survival instincts are stronger in others. You can't teach that. Everyone has a breaking point. Much like a conscious chose to fight in the ring and just training traditional MA. Some breaking points is seeing your buddies brain being blown out, some have higher tolerance as in: "Well he got his brain blown out, dumba$$ should never stuck his head up. I'm not gonna do that" While another person will freeze up upon seeing that. Yet both will have the same training in their military careers and experience.

You can see this in normal training. One guy will use every excuse possible, when another guy will suck it up. You can't teach that. You cant beat the other guy into a "mindset" of sucking it up. He already has a certain mindset.


Aww crap what was my point again :D

Very true, like I said, we do the best with what we got, and that includes training methodologies.
The hardest thing is to instill the proper mindest, not the easiest thing.

[SevenStar]

Again ring mentality is different from survival mentality. Although I admit there are common traits. Ring mentality follows rules and there is someone there to save your a$$. The referee. Training for survival is basic instinct. Everyone is born with survival instinct. Training hones that survival instinct. There is no one to save your a$$ when you tap out in a TRUE survival situation.

Not really. People who fight in a ring don't have a "ring mentality" they simply fight how they train. We don't go into the ring thinking "remember, this is the ring, I can only use x set of techniques..." Likewise, we don't go in thinking, "well, even if I am getting beaten, it won't matter, cuz the ref will save me!" it's the same instinct for survival, but a different motivator. When I am in 152, I don't have to think "this is the club now, I can fight with street techniques," - I fight how I train. people get choked, people get tied up, etc. my skillset is no different in the two environments, nor is my mindset - win. sure, the consequence is different, but that doesn't mean my game has to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had the pleasure of talking to Tito when he was here at the Docks awhile back, we had met before through a mutual friend and we had a chance to chat a bit outside ( the docks has an outside lounge area), we didn't chat much, maybe 10-15 min, nice guy when he is not playing the role.
Anyways, as such things go we got to the Ring VS real world subject because of someone else that was with us and Tito said it best:

I don't train any different, other than knives, but I KNOW the difference.

Pretty much sums it up there.

[IronFist]

A fist has like 2-3" more reach than a palm strike. That might be why people prefer punches.

[Yum Cha]

The problem with these discussions/rants is that everybody is wrong, and right at the same time.

7* grapples on the job, that's the gig for a house man. He's got backup, and rules to deal with.

Young guys like to bang hard, can take the punnishment and need to develop the 'ring craft' without blinding each other, breaking joints or crippling eachother.

Soldiers use one hand, coz the other has a knife or gun to finish the job.

Pros have to put on a good show against premium opponents to feed the family, yet live to fight another day.

Street fighters can't get pinned/knocked out/caught coz then the pain begins...

Old guys like to keep up the skills, but carry a lifetime of injuries.

Any fool knows a fit fighter has a big advantage on an un-fit fighter.

Some guys train just for the art, with no interest in fighting.

Some guys are natural born fighters and can turn anything into skills.

Some guys learn all their lives, some learn 1 lesson, and spend the rest of their lives trying to justify it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with these discussions/rants is that everybody is wrong, and right at the same time.

7* grapples on the job, that's the gig for a house man. He's got backup, and rules to deal with.

Young guys like to bang hard, can take the punnishment and need to develop the 'ring craft' without blinding each other, breaking joints or crippling eachother.

Soldiers use one hand, coz the other has a knife or gun to finish the job.

Pros have to put on a good show against premium opponents to feed the family, yet live to fight another day.

Street fighters can't get pinned/knocked out/caught coz then the pain begins...

Old guys like to keep up the skills, but carry a lifetime of injuries.

Any fool knows a fit fighter has a big advantage on an un-fit fighter.

Some guys train just for the art, with no interest in fighting.

Some guys are natural born fighters and can turn anything into skills.

Some guys learn all their lives, some learn 1 lesson, and spend the rest of their lives trying to justify it.

Yep, pretty much.