The Buck Sing Fighting Arts of Grandmaster Tarm Sarm

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

After speaking in depth with my Sifu, ( Master Dave Lacey ) we thought it was necessary to educate people and help them understand the differences between Buck Sing and Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut……

Hung Sing and Buck Sing may be from the same lineage if we go all the way back to Cheung Hung Sing but in Buck Sing, our lineage stops at Tarm Sarm, the founder of the Buck Sing Branch. We are not exactly "One and the Same". In our branch we have our own special training drills and fighting techniques that are exclusively and uniquely Buck Sing. In the Tarm Sarm Buck Sing branch lineage, my sifu Dave Lacey is a 4th generation Buck Sing disciple.

In the CLF martial arts, it's not what you know or can do - it's HOW you do it! Recently a guy from the U.K ( Hakka Jai ) who viewed ( My Sifu’s) Master Dave Lacey's youtube, mentioned on the kung fu forum that until he saw Buck Sing he never really had any interest in learning Choy Lay Fut. He further said there is a Hung Sing CLF school in his area but he specified that he only wants to learn Buck Sing! Someone mentioned that "Buck Sing and Hung Sing are One and the Same?" Well then, if there is no difference with Master Lacey's Choy Lay Fut, then why wouldn't this guy want to learn from a Hung Sing teacher?


Anyone familiar with Choy Lay Fut kung fu is aware that there are 3 branches within the style. The Hung Sing Branch (the Cheung Hung Sing lineage) and especially the Chan family branch (the Chan Heung lineage) has many kung fu forms in their curriculum. The Buck Sing branch founded by the legendary master fighter Tarm Sarm was not interested in learning and teaching many forms for his true passion was in the art of kung fu fighting/combat. Therefore at his school the Buck Sing Gwoon, the focus was on tough realistic training for conditioning and endurance, repetitive drilling of fighting technique for speed and power and regular sparring matches in class so that his students fighting skills could be put to the test. Tarm Sarm was not one to waste time on learning and practising too many forms for he was a fighter at heart who firmly believed that the only way a true martial arts pugilist would gain fame, recognition and respect was in the martial arts dueling area against other skilled rival kung fu fighters.


THE BUCK SING FIGHTING ARTS

The experience he gained in the many sparring matches with his fellow CLF brothers over the years and the numerous challenge/dueling matches with other kung fu fighters enabled Tarm Sarm to carefully analyze the effectiveness of his CLF techniques as well as examine its flaws. He became a true innovator of the fighting style he learnt and made good use of his combat experience to further imporve his fighting skills and combat strategy. He realized that in combat he had to compete with time and space (the distance between him and his opponent and the time it'll take to move in to close the gap quickly) and he accomplished that successfully with a lightning footwork call biu ma. In order to have more extension and longer reach with his left and right straight pantherfist (charp chui) punches he made full use of his shoulders and waist and this helped generate more power. He also adopted the 180 degree side stance (peen sun) to give his opponent less target area to strike. He put his newfound strategy to use in sparring matches with his sihings (senior fellow students) and even his Hung Sing CLF teacher Lui Charn and none of them could beat him. When he later established his own school, the Buck Sing Gwoon in Guangzhou in a province called Siu Buck, his fame and great reputation attracted many followers. To honour their teacher Tarm Sarm's martial arts achievements and his reputation as a famed fighting master, his loyal students respectfully referred to their CLF as "Buck Sing" after the school's name.

In over 100 fighting matches Tarm Sarm was never defeated. With a new technique using the charp chui (pantherfist) punches in rapid succession Tarm Sarm was able to floor his opponents withing seconds of the fight.

In the 1960's movie producers in Hong Kong wanted to make a movie on the life and martial arts legacy of Tarm Sarm (died 1942) but his son Tarm Fei Pang said no. He told them that no actor was good enough to play the role of his father and that it'll only do him injustice!

Though the Buck Sing branch is part of the CLF family, the Buck Sing fighting arts is unique because of Tarm Sarm's passion in devoting his time and efforts to improve on his own martial skills and fighting techniques and putting them to the test.


Nick
Buck Sing Gwoon Australia

[Steeeve]

Thank Nick very good explainaition

About the biu ma ...its the footwork transition from horse to Bow and arrow stance with a shuffle step ? or its a shuffling step in every stance transition ?

from what you said in your post .....Thats why if I learn CLF .....I will go for Buk sing CLF .....less form and more fighting .....

Could you give more information about the curriculum of BSCLF .....

I read 3 forms (sup ji kuen ,kau da and ping kuen ) Does some northern Sil lum form was adds ?

Steeve Sorry for the English

[Ben Gash]

and he accomplished that successfully with a lightning footwork call biu ma. In order to have more extension and longer reach with his left and right straight pantherfist (charp chui) punches he made full use of his shoulders and waist and this helped generate more power.
:confused:That's standard Choy Li Fut :confused:

[nospam]

Hey Steeve,

Is there a buck sing school in your area?

nospam
:cool:

[Steeeve]

Nospam

Long time ago ....yes we have a buk sing school in Ottawa ,Canada ...But the sifu go back to Hong Kong around3 years ago .....

No more Buk sing :(

Steeve

[nospam]

Nick

I'd like to add to this thread as Tam Sam is my direct lineage as well - realising lineages often have a little different story to tell:

After being accepted as a student of Lui Chan, Tam Sam turned out to be a very diligent pupil with a no nonsense attitude. He practised long and he practised hard. But when put to the test, he could not fight as well as the other students. His inability to fight effectively frustrated him on one hand but fueled his resolve on the other, as for Tam Sam, fighting was the ultimate demonstration of skill. Although he practised even harder, he seemed to get no closer to his goal. One day Tam Sam asked his teacher what he was doing wrong. His teacher pointed out that he kept his chest too flat towards his opponents and thus provided a greater target area. You see, in Hung Gar, the chest is almost flat towards the opponent whereas in (Hon Hsing) Choy Lee Fut, the chest is kept at about a 45-degree angle to the opponent, effectively limiting the target area by the same degree.

Taking this newfound strategy back to his training, Tam Sam reasoned that if turning the chest slightly away from the opponent was better, then twisting it to a 90 degree angle to the opponent would be even better! This was the beginning of Tam Sam's journey that would lead to many enhancements to his kung fu over time. For Tam Sam didn't merely limit this concept to certain aspects of the style, and this was his genious. He carefully considered the effect of his idea on all of the techniques.

It is told or suggested that he did not start down this path in an effort to change things just for the sake of change. He simply wanted to be the best. He more than likely got caught up in the excitement of the discovery process, and that he didn't want to show his teacher half thought out ideas and incomplete work so he practised and perfected his new ideas in secret so as to impress his teacher. When Tam Sam was ready, he chose to reveal his new ideas in the way that he knew best. He sparred with the senior students in the school and easily defeated them all. He was sure his teacher would be very pleased. Instead, his teacher became angry and berated Tam Sam for not using the principles and techniques of (Hon Hsing) Choy Lee Fut. It is also told Lui Chan and Tam Sam fought, with Tam Sam knocking Lui Chan down many times.

Tam Sam maintained acknowledgement of Lui Chan as his Hong Sing teacher. When asked who taught him, Tam Sam would reply: My style is Fut Gar, and I learned from the Buddhist, Lui Chan. (The original Buddhist name of Choy Lee Fut was "Fut Gar Jing Jung" translated to 'Buddhist Family Pure Seed Techniques'). Tam Sam maintained his association with Choy Lee Fut as a larger fraternity.

Tam Sam spent many years travelling China looking for kung fu masters who could add to his knowledge. As was the norm of the day, he would challenge them to non-lethal combat and then would stay to talk about kung fu. During this time, he refined his ideas and put them to the ultimate test. He fought..a lot. This refined his skill, enabling his ability to surpass all others.

Hong Sing and Bak Hsing are two very different styles that share a common heritage. In Bak Hsing the movements and techniques have been taken to the extremes. The movements are similar but the philosophy is very different.

nospam
:cool:

[nospam]

Steeve,

You should have taken the opportunity to study under Sifu Chiu Kwok Chung back in 2000. Oh well, come to Winnipeg and learn. :D

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

no spam,

have you heard of this one......i was told this by my si-sook gung that back in the day both chan fam and hung sing attempted to unite. for whatever reasons, they didn't include tam sam. from my understanding, this upset tam sam and was part of the reason why he headed for Siu Buk.

have u heard of this?

[nospam]

hskwarrior

No, I did not hear of that, although I realise Tam Sam was a shaker and a mover and disrupted the traditional ways at times. My Sigung, Leung Lap Yau (disciple of Tam Fei Pang and Lun Gee), was the same.

In Hong Kong he often bucked the system and had many challenge matches for it. After immigrating to Canada, he became the first Chinese sifu to teach kung fu to a non-Asian in Vancouver (my sifu), which caused a great deal of trouble and contention within the traditional Chinese martial arts community.

Tam Sam is recognised as the 'founder' of Bak Hsing CLF, this is for obvious and distinct reasons otherwise there would simply be 2 family associations. It is commonly accepted that within any family with divergent lineages change and differences will occur and become apparent. This is moreso true when one lineage adds to the 'standard' ie) learning different family styles, modifying or developing basic techniques and concepts and adopting or creating new philosophies.

Associations can be as important as the style itself. Claiming affiliation to a larger organization can provide greater and more visible support and can often be politically expedient.

Bak Hsing is readily distinguishable from all others. Tam Sam distinquished himself from all others.

nospam
:cool:

[Steeeve]

Nospam Sifu Chiu kwok chung teached in Scabourough Ontario .....not Ottawa...


Fromwhat Sifu said ....hung sing and buk sing is the same family .......different but the same Choy lay fut .....

Steeve

[nospam]

yea..one love. :rolleyes:

nospam
:cool:

[Anti-Theory]

In over 100 fighting matches Tarm Sarm was never defeated. With a new technique using the charp chui (pantherfist) punches in rapid succession Tarm Sarm was able to floor his opponents withing seconds of the fight.


Ah, the Tau Lau charp chui. I was practicing that technique the other day. As a student of Buk Sing, I know the importance of that punch very well.

Thank you Nick, for your very informative history lesson. Now I wish I would have taken the time to ask my Sifu about Tarm Sarm.

[mickey]

Greetings,

That was a master in Hong Kong who knew this style. He sold snakes during the day time and at night the punching bags came down from above. Does anyone know the name of this person?

mickey

[Steeeve]

Take a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3vkCmRnR88

Whats the name of this form ??? Ping kuen ???/

Steeve

[Vilmore]

I suppose so. all the ping keun's I've seen all look a little different, but its pretty much the exact same salute so...

btw. what is the difference between sui ping keun en ping keun, or is it just in the name?

[nospam]

Yes, that's Ping Chuan or as we call it Sap Ji Chuan. Not sure why there is a change in names for some people. Perhaps someone has a good story to relate.

Thanks for the vid post - always enjoy watching Fut Gar Chuan!

nospam
:cool:

[CLFNole]

Aren't the 3 buk sing hand forms:

1) Sup Gee Kuen
2) Kow Dah Kuen
3) Ping Kuen

I believe the 4th set is sheung garp dan tow kwun (single & double end staff).

This is what I was told and have also read from some buk sing sites but I think things could vary from school to school so not sure. I have seen some list Che Kuen and Lien Wan Kuen as a set as well.

[hskwarrior]

this the fut san hung sing che kuen

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bJ4d7p5JTY0

[hskwarrior]

here's buk sing clf's Carey Wong doing a jow ga set......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8gNLQxY9Q

[Steeeve]

Nospam

Ping kuen and sup ji kuen are two different forms :confused: Like CLFNole said

Here the beginning look like ping kuen (the Siu ping kuen Like I saw perform by Sifu Shane Lacey ) but after the form is different maybe sup ji kuen .....Look like a compilation of different forms for demo ....Who know :confused:

Steeve

Ps Frank very good jow ga (Fu pow ) form Thank you

[Vilmore]

so does anyone have the answer to my question?
What's with the "siu" in Siu Ping Keun, Siu Subje keun, Siu Moi Far keun?
Siu Ping Keun and Ping keun seem to be the same, while Moi Far Keun and Siu Moi Far keun are not. :confused:

[Satori Science]

The three traditional patterns are sup tse kuen (big frame about 200 movements and small frame about 125) kow da kuen, and ping kuen, all three are very classical, are supposed to be preformed on a deep horse but use a pattent bak hsing fighting stance called the triangle horse which is a taller modified bow stance.

Tam Fei Pang, only taught (or at least emphsised) di & sui sup tse kuen, and then his own modified fighting Jeen Kuen patterns. So my sigung never taught ping kuen of kow da.

Lung Jee on the other hand also taught my Sifu Ping Kuen and a foundation form called Che kuen but it is a completelty different pattern then the one Sifu frank posted. Ours is much less advanced pattern in terms of movemnts. Its actually like a post standing routine ware you hold each strike for about a minute in deep stance.

I'm not sure what form that was Steeeve posted, it was a classical style pattern, one of the three. But not in any order that I ever learned. It was awsome though, very unique the combinations of swinging punches. For the most part though, my Sifu has always told me that the only form that matters is the big frame sup tse. There wasn't a single movement in this vid that isn't in di sup tse. There are of course endless differnt ways to play them, coordinate them and syncronize them, but really if you've learned the basic movemetn in a sequence already you don't "need" the other forms. Like I said i really liked the way he played this form( i'de probably learn it if i had a chance), but in our school we only teach 4 southern forms, foundationf form, sup tse jeen kuen, lien whan jeen kuen and Sup Tse. When I teach I include one or two more foundation forms, but thats it for patterns. After that its fighting, performance, understanding and gung with our CLF.

[CLFNole]

Vilmore:

Siu just means small as in a smaller version. Siu Ping Kuen - Small Level Fist, etc...

Also:

Che Kuen is another name we use for Ng Lun Choy. A primary set that focuses on repetition of stances and basic hand patterns.

[nospam]

As I said, some ping chuan are apparently others' sap ji chuan so I have seen of late. Lineages within Bak Sing teach different patterns (and different movements within same 'named' patterns). And as I have said, I do not know why there was a name change in at least one of the patterns as pointed out earlier. Although watching the various patterns performed...change is quite common and is nothing new.

My lineage teaches:

sui yat mun chuan
yat mun chuan
gai bun chuan
sap ji chaun
sap ji gin chuan
lin won jin chuan

..of course for teaching purposes there are many many variations for most of the patterns especially when training the 5 animals.

Regardless, they are just patterns and thus one of many teaching tools.

nospam
:cool:

[CLFNole]

Do you translate yat mun kuen as one door fist? Do you pronounce the mun like moon? Or is it Yahp Mun Kuen - Inner Door/Chamber Fist?

Gay boon kuen translates to basic/fundamental fist.

Were these sets introduced by your sifu or sigung? My sifu created some basic starter sets as well to make learning a bit easier.

[Vilmore]

thx clfnole

and gai bun keun means basics... makes sence now :)

[Satori Science]

My Sifu set up our gai boon kuen, and yat mun kuen was my Sigung's pattern. My Sihing, Sifu Curtis Taylor also taught me a longer gai boon kuen that has more tiger claw and sweeps.

[nospam]

yut mun ch'uan - mun pronounced moon - is first door form and was created by my sigung after he immigrated to Canada to more easily introduce power to entry level practitioners. This pattern is similar to traditional karate kata although not performed slow. It serves the beginner many purposes and is short in length.

gai bun ch'uan - martial source - has its origin from Lung Gee. I have no idea if our pattern resembles the original Heep Wui Gai Bun Ch'uan as taught at the HK Chinese Martial Arts Union in the mid-40s. My guess is there is similarity; regardless, this form sets the foundation or the flavour of our bak sing. I have seen a gai bun ch'uan performed and it did not look anything remotely familiar to bak sing's and seemed very 'basic'. Gai bun ch'uan is my favourite form. It is very dramatic when performed well.

again, goes to show the differences at play in our little CLF world :D

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

this is fut san ping kuen.....

how much different is it from a buk sing ping kuen....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Z1NXmn-RAw

[nospam]

The intro seem to be pretty much the same then all hell breaks lose between brances and lineages. There are pieces and 'phrases' that are similar but it is most definitely different.

At 1:26 into the video is ping or sap ji (what is performed I was taught as Sap ji ch'uan). And again by another sifu at 5:25 and it is different (and also in the way it is performed) than the first sifu's from the 1:26 mark. Notice the opening line and some are similar - this seems to be the constant. My lineage has a little of the first and a little of second etc. I;ve seen some others and they all were different.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1466817336172334030&q=Pak+Sing+Koon

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

forgive me nospam,

the performer at 5:25 is carey wong again. but in my singapore hsk video he does basically the same form and they announced it as kau da.

now, i have a question, are that set and the one done at 1:26 completely different?

the only think i noticed was everything up to the bow was the same but after that i saw a completely different set. but ALL hsk lineages have that pattern opening.

are my eyes giving out on me?:confused:

[Fu-Pau]

here's buk sing clf's Carey Wong doing a jow ga set......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8gNLQxY9Q

hsk,

Thanks for sharing.

I should point out, however that the form in this video is not the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) Fu Pau Kuen form. It looks very “Jow Ga” flavoured in the techniques shown, but it is not the Chow Gar, Fu Pau Kuen as practiced in Chow Gar. Unfortunately I can’t get my hands on one to show as comparison though.

I realise of course that Master Kong On was originally a student of Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar), and that some of his Chow Gar came into his BS CLF lineage. This leads me to ask, as I have always been curious to know, if the Chow Gar in this particular lineage of BS CLF is (a) taught as a separate art, or (b) fused in with the CLF as a blended art? It is very rare to see any of it on the net, so I have always been curious? The comments at the bottom of that video clip suggest that the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) forms taught are the more blended sort, with names such as “Jow Ga Kuen #1” “Jow Ga Kuen # 2” etc.

Perhaps Nick or anyone else from that lineage, knows the answer to that one?

Cheers

[nospam]

hskwarrior

No idea. I'm watching these from video and am not an expert on patterns outside my family. We have 2 patterns that start the same as in the patterns shown, and as I have posted in this thread, then branch out to different 'phrasing'. I see similarities after (for the most part) the common opening line and thus make my assumptions on the patterns.

In the end it doesn't matter besides to acknowledge and confirm we've all learned our gung fu a little different, which is also quite common. I'd wager the one single commonality, as can be seen in all the pattern variations, is the bak sing fighting philosophy. Discard the patterns and engage in either 2-person training techniques or sparring and this is when bak sing shines.

In the end it is all one glorious bak sing family which puts a smile on my face. :D

nospam
:cool:

[Satori Science]

I think my original point was that it doesn't really matter which form it was or what the form was called.

Forms, and their endless variety are just that. A variety of differnent ways to play the same basic tequniques and concepts. Even look at my Sup Tse and Nospam's and you will see several differences even though our teachers were from the same school. But I can always tell a bak hsing form from another CLF family style.

When I see masters that age preform, I assume the techinques they demonstrate are the one they like and are good at. That is usually the way forms get set up. Even Carey Wong's kow da looks very differnet from my sifu's version.

My point was, if I cared to I could easily take movemnts from sup tse and/or our jeen kuen patterns and set up five new forms. they would all look different but would there be anything "unique" about them? Once when I was getting really excited and asking questions about the exact order of movements in Sup tse my sifu told me that, "when I was 25 the order of the movements was very important to me, but by the time I was 35 I didn't really care anymore, what is the difference a gwa-chop is a gwa-chop why does it matter when I do it"

I'm usally more interested in how well they play their form and perform their family's hoi jong.

Alot of the time a sifu isn't even going to demonstrate his family version of any form. Even Sifu wong's kow da looks to short to me, maybe a sui kow da kuen, but when i showed my sifu that video, he asked me "Was there a single movement in that form that isn't in your sup tse?" and of course the awnswer was NO.

[k-no]

nospam, Satori Science...

...couldn't have said it better myself. At the end of the day I just wanna chun-sow-gwa-charp somebody/something. I cross-train to bridge fighting environments, that is all. I'm not really interested in common threads, I just want to train what I've learned, Buck Sing.

embrace diversity. :)

[Satori Science]

I would add that my Sifu started learning Bak Hsing at the age of 12 in Hong Kong. He told me he didn't learn his first form until he was almost 18. He did five years training basics, drills and fighting.
I read somthing on one of the Lacey sites along those same lines. That for the first several years GM Kong Hing only taught them basics and fighting , no forms.

Sihing told me that when discussing forms with SiGung he said, "Martial first, art later!"

[k-no]

When I was asking to learn forms as others were in our class, my Sifu told me that he had been well into his fight training until he started learning forms. When I asked to learn a particular form a few years ago, he knew my goals and told me this, and he also said "As long as you know how to use your Buck Sing quickly and effectively, don't worry about forms. Keep drilling your techniques and just concentrate on fighting." It wasn't until I mentioned my interest in teaching that my Sifu gave more encouragement in learning forms. From the start, our Buck Sing curriculum was clearly designed for fighting.

I'm on the line with my Sifu right now, he just told me after all the years he had rounded down to about 12 core forms. Even at this lower number, my Sigung Kong Hing told him "Why the hell do you have to learn so many forms for!!?"

k

[nospam]

:)

nospam
:cool:

[stout]

T

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1466817336172334030&q=Pak+Sing+Koon

nospam
:cool:

This vid is pretty cool. Do you know how to get to pt 1 & pt 2?

[mokkori]

Gei Boon Keun is actually called "Hip Wooi Gei Boon Keun", meaning "fundamental fist of the association", and created by Lun Chee... and one other guy I think.


Nospam:

Chuan is Mandarin, and the rest of what your using is Cantonese, its just weird.

Sup Ji Keun = Cantonese
Shi Zi Chuan = Mandarin
Ch'uan = F'ist???

And if your Sup Ji Keun came from Leung Yap Yau then its from Chui Kwong Yeun. Leung learned half of the Daai Sup Ji Keun... then wore out his welcome as the story goes. So the rest is from a different source but the beginning is traditional Hung Sing. Might help to understand why its different from other Buk Sing versions of Sup Ji Keun, its half Hung Sing.

[hskwarrior]

NOSPAM..........My half brother!:D

[Satori Science]

I'll half to ask my Sifu a few questions tonight to get this all strait, as I can never remeber exact names in Chinese when I start discussing other lineages.

That said, regardless of other Sup Tse Kuens my Sigung may have learned, the version Lueng Sigung taught was the exact same version Tam Fei Pang taught in HK. I have that version of the form which Tam Fei Pang corrected himself when my Sifu also studied with him in HK. I can say, that in essence Nospam's is the same as well (don't mean to awnser for you brother) with minor differences in a few movements between our respective Sifus.

I also have the Lung Jee version of this form which my Sifu learned from him directly, it again is in essence, exactly the same as our Tam Fei Pang version. I would say that when I see Bak Hsing forms they most often all look exactly the same to me, have the same tequniques (at least when we talk about the "three classical patterns") and are ususally just set up in different orders . I also have to say that our three classical patterns do have similarities to Hung Hsing , but our Jeen Kuen fighting patterns don't look all that similar. They run and cut on agles with succesive straight punches. A lot of short hook punches always striking to the center line, not so much swinging arms at all.

I would say that if there is Bak Hsing that looks a little differnet than what we do its just because of the forms and fighting styles taught by Tam Fei Pang and Lung Jee. The two taught together as the closest of brothers for many years. And both maintained there own unique style. Fei Pang was a small man, maybe 5"6 or shorter even? and was a direct student of Master Ku Yu Joeng, so he used alot of kicking and emphasised the coordiantion of chop choi and kicks to enter. Lung Jee is 6'1 and never taught Sifu to kick, he always kept his feet (except low kicks I guess) under him and used his specialized running horse, chop choi and his own style of swininging arms. Sifu always said the mark of those two was that they didn't need to push the others idea down just because it ws a little different, both masters had their own style, had come to their own understanding of its uses in fighting.

[nospam]

hskwarrior

lol

mokkori

couldn't care less how I spell it. I aint Chinese nor do I pretend to be. We can all speak gung fu around here but it means jack. Just like all Bak Hsing CLF peeps do from yester-year to Today - we kick ass and we do it well and we do it not from forms practise but from studying a devestating and well proven and specialised form of gung fu as developed and refined by Tam Sam and each successive masters, right down to those who actively train Today. Bak Hsing let's the other families chit-chat and try to know it all by word of mouth. We'll continue to step-up and put-down: that's just the way it is.

Satori Science

it's all good bro

Tam Fei was shorter than Lung Gee and preferred attacking from ding gee ma as opposed to Lung Gee from sei ping ma to maximise his length/height advantage.

keeping it real

nospam
:cool:

[Vilmore]

Gei Boon Keun is actually called "Hip Wooi Gei Boon Keun", meaning "fundamental fist of the association", and created by Lun Chee... and one other guy I think.

I think we all have our Gai Bun Keuns created by grandmasters :)

[hskwarrior]

nospam...........:D

you know you and me go way way back!:D even before this forum.

however, I do remember you guys having to prove your Buk Hsing Fut Gar is the real deal. Don't be upset with mokkori, what he's saying basically is that your lineage is real.

confirmation is there now, for everyone to see. no need to worry anymore. i know you're not. but i wanted to say rest assured, you're buk sing.

you know what, forms are just forms. no evidence of anything. created by tam sam, jeong yim, or chan heung, its' nice to know, but they ain't the ones using it today. and today, we think differently than back then. this means things change from person to person. nothing is set in stone.

now, i'm just more interested in hearing more from your lineage.

i hope this doesn't upset anyone, but i heard something about leung lap yau, a challenge and wong ha's school. do you know anything about that story? i'm interested in hearing this.

[hskwarrior]

now,

Lun Chee........from my understanding, even in his old age has one helluva sow choy.

i heard a story on how lun chee went to singapore and trained some of the hung sing people to fight in this tournament. a hung sing student was set to fight this shaolin monk called the iron tank. supposedly very very tough cat.

lun chee trained the hung sing guy, and developed his sow choys which ultimately defeated the monk.

nospam, satori............are your families in touch with Lun Chee?

i ask because if he's passed away would you guys hear directly or through the grape vine?

[stout]

nospam - all your talking have me all fired up, seems like the only way to do it is to fight and analyse. It's seems thats what most of your sifus have done to perfect your technique. no doubt you guys have the best rep in fighting. It seems like Buk Sing CLF is the fighting academy branch of CLF. Chan style archaic classical. Hung Sing style mixture of both. It's a pity there are so few buk sings schools, maybe that the way you guys want to keep it. Are your sifus not worried about the art fading?

Question about your forms, why are the hands always seems kind of relaxed, with the fingers not touching each other in some of the movements? There's seems to be big emphasis in circlular strikes with lateral waist turns. Is this a big part of your fighting philsophy? The Other branches are more verticle, like top down.

[CLFNole]

I think to say that buk sing is the only branch the fights is rather ridiculous. Over the years especially in Hong Kong all of the branches were well represented in the full contact scene.

The perceptions people have nowadays are based too much on what they read on forums like this. CLF is CLF and it is as effective as each person chooses to train it, thats it, the branch won't make you a more effective fighter just good old training will.

This is the kind of crap that continues to push the branches apart rather than to bring them together.

[hskwarrior]

I agree clfnole, Buk Sing isn't the ONLY fighting school of clf. In fact, my lineage has some tough fighters. not for the ring. but on the street you wouldn't want to mess around. it's always been like that. even down to beating up bruce lee's students.

but the problem is, there are more chan fam schools and very few hung sing and buk sing groups. the only schools truely connected to fut san hung sing are Lau Bun's lineage, and buk sing through the laceys, buk sam kong, lai hung, and probably few i've missed.

however, the main problem is division. too many divisions with buk sing, in hung sing. meaning we have our way you have yours. its that way even with the same family. different teachers have different concepts.

but it is no doubt that buk sing is a great great example of what our clf should be like. they focus on fighting, take out the bs that ins forms and throw it away or modify it to better it. For fighting in the Choy Lee Fut system.........Buk Sing is definately the leaders. of course, they're out there doing ****.

but it's time all hung sing and buk sing step up like the lacey family has.;)

[stout]

very few hung sing and buk sing groups. the only schools truely connected to fut san hung sing are Lau Bun's lineage, and buk sing through the laceys, buk sam kong, lai hung, and probably few i've missed.


what about Lee Koon Hung's school, was he not part of the Fut San lineage also?

[CLFNole]

Actually we are a mixed lineage and quite frankly our sets are more along the Chan Family line albeit slightly different.

[stout]

ok. I am little confused now. This is frist time I have heard that your sets are more closer to Chan's. They seem alot more extended and done with more power then the chan sets.

The Lee Koon Hung school uses Hung sing,(the Fut Shan Hung sing - not Chan family "Hung") in their emblem also. Lee Koon Hung followed the Chenug hueng Sing lineage right? So does that not make it Fut Shan?

[CLFNole]

Most of our kung fu comes from Chan Koon Pak but it also comes from Jeong Yim. If you look at the names of all of our sets you would understand better. We play our sets a bit different from say Chan Yong Fa's school but when you compare you can see a lot of similarities in the sets. When you compare our stuff to Fut San it is quite a bit different as Frank will confirm.

[hskwarrior]

see, it seems the heart of the lkh lineage lies with fut san hung sing. but yes, their forms lay along the same lines as chan fam stuff.

its interesting, because the Fut san HSK uses wang jong, while chan fam uses the straight line. LKH material is chan fam, but their hoi jong patterns are straight up hung sing. when i say that.....anyone doing an "L" shape operning is doing fut san hung sing stuff. it's found in buk sing too.

[hskwarrior]

but also, stout, that's their mixture of hung sing stuff.

from what other masters in hk, singapore and such told me about LEE KOON HUNG, they all praised him as a hung sing man. called him a die hard hung sing man. that's why i feel he used our hung sing characters.

[hskwarrior]

stout,



the lee koon hung lineage is a mixture of both jeong hung sing and chan fam lineages.

[stout]

so what makes a lineage Fut Gar? What techniques in Buk Sing and Hung Sing, make them "apart" from the chan stuff?

as far as I understand. Fut Gar is Budda's palms, long range gwa, sau, peg...like monk techniques with more extension.

Do you mean the ciricuiculm is LKH is closer to Chans, like the beginners forms and names of forms. The performance attributes seems very difference.

I don't mean to be rude but the Chan stuff seems a little weak. Not sure if the way it's performed or what.

So what schools out there are considered Chueng Hung Sings direct lineage?

[hskwarrior]

As the information is available today.....

The Chan Heung line is Chan Yuen Wu, Lee Yau San, and Choy Fook.

Jeong Hung Sing line contains Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Ching Cho.


For the Jeong Hung Sing lineage our fut ga comes from Ching Cho.

if you are referring to Bak Hsing Fut Ga, It is said.....(not confirmed) that jeong yim originally called his system fut ga. In some way this has been spoken about by elder Lun Chee. He was Tam Sams student........who else better to answer that question?

although the basic punches are there, the forms resemble chan fam forms and not hung sing. it is what it is.

the USA ........First is the Lau Bun lineage of fut san hsk, buk sing, and Chui Kwong Yuen. Sifu Paul Chu who is Chui Kwong Yuens student teaches in texas.

[hskwarrior]

i just want to be clear.....

when i refer to hung sing Fut San, i mean all schools that don't have any chan family gung fu. i personally feel lhk lineage is hung sing, but the fact of the matter is that the meat of their forms resemble chan fam gung fu. LKH lineage much like the laceys, have a very distinct look about them. anyone moving like them must have had some contact. it is strictly their outter ear mark.

LKH is a hybrid system containing both lineages gung fu. they have the best of both worlds so to speak.

[stout]

ok, many thanks for the clarification.

Can you point out some examples of chan system? some of it looks like chow gar etc. It appears short range. Is that the chan kung fu?

[hskwarrior]

it may just be someones personal style.

i don't believe chan fam has a presdescribed method.......fighting isn't so simple.

personal movement is very key in discovering and "owning" your gung fu.

performers are one thing, fighters are another.

[TenTigers]

Anyone know the significance of the "L" shaped opening? I always found that curious-not in a negative way, just meaning different and interesting.
Also the hoi jong-what are the meanings of the different types?

[CLFNole]

Actually we have two types of hoi jongs: one is straight and the other is L-shaped but the meat is the same in both. Our L-shape is quite different than hung sing's.

The real truth is we as a lineage really don't care about all the branch crap. If you ask any of my sihings in HK all we care about is CLF. My sifu didn't care too much for all the politics and belonged to different CLF organizations. I have pictures from sifu attending the Chan Hueng Memeorial banquets. I think the alignment with Hung Sing was something political at the time for whatever reason. Years ago I had dinner with Poon Sing and I asked him about his father's (Poon Dik) kung fu to which he explained it came from Chan Koon Pak.

Don't judge branches from what you see on the internet. Unfortunately people in the "YouTube Generation" get misconceptions about branches based on clips they see. Unless you go to the school or watch for a long time you have no idea what really goes on in each school, yeah you can get a feel for how they perform sets but thats about it.

As for our kung fu if you watch enough CLF you can see we have influences from all three branches but our "flow" is more from the Chan Heung side.

[CLFNole]

TT:

To answer your question the poetic names for the L-shaped hoi jong was supposed to have some coded meaning regarding overthrowing the Ching Dynasty, at least that is what I was told.

I really don't get that caught up with how a set opens as it is just that an opening, the meat of the form is what matters.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

the whole opening is supposed to have a poetic meaning in overthrowing the ching.

not sure if you know, but when you use the old long lion tales, we'd flip the tail over and that was supposed to represent the overthrowing of the government

[JAZA]

CLFNole,

you are the wiser man on this forum.

Frank,

You speak so much about fightings and how forms are just crap, but you are the largest publisher of forms performing in youtube, and no fightings at all.
Don't get me wrong, I don´t want to start a lineage flame war or trolling.

Stout,


Don't make misunderstanding based on forums or videos. If you want to know get out and ask on each school.

[hskwarrior]

wait, wait, Jaza........I've never said forms were crap and such. you are putting words in my mouth. pls stop.

forms to me are something you need to pass on the tradition of a school. but if you strictly wish to fight, then you don't learn forms.

You need to stop telling lies. I am not the largest promoter of forms. i show forms of others. where is your fighting? we don't see it, or at least i haven't?

wtf is your problem?

[hskwarrior]

i don't need to post any fighting, because if you someone wants to see if i know what im talking about all they have to do is come see me.

thats plain and simple.

but something is up your arse, and what ever i said has nothing to do you with. i don't even know how and why you entered this. but one thing is for sure, you are barking up the wrong tree by starting this.

[extrajoseph]

Here it goes Frank.....:mad:

Care to keep your mouth shut for a couple of days on the passing of Grandmaster Wong Ha?

Thank you!

[k-no]

Pls. don't misunderstand the meaning of the original post. I heartily disagree with ANYONE saying that ALL CLF is the same. However to speak humbly for Buck Sing, we find merits within all CLF branches while doing our own thing and evolving in the spirit of what Tarm Sarm and specifically in my branch, Kong On instilled in our family.

I hate to let the "cat out of the bag" so to speak (to reference my Sifu's writings lol) but shortly there should be some evidence of our opinion regarding other CLF styles and their fighting abilities. Suffice it to say, respect to where respect is due, and as we promote our philosophy we recognize where the fighting art shines in every branch.

That's all for now.

k

[hskwarrior]

IF GM WOng HA has passed away ........I offer my sincere condolences.

but jospeh, you can back the fuk off me and get rid of that angry face.

don't know what problem is.......i never disrespected anyone.


but this is the first i heard of Wong Ha's passing, and didn't even know he was still alive.

my condolences to anyone from his lineage.

[TenTigers]

from my brief exposure to Chan and BSCLF, it appears to me (and my inexperienceed eye) that BSCLF has greater extension in their movements along with a looser,more "relaxed" whipping of the spine,shoulders,etc. This extension really shows up in their charp choy. Speaking of charp-choy, they also seem to make extensive use of this in their fighting, from lien wan, to fei-charp choy, and everything in between. I have also seen LKH guys play their forms with very similar body. Others as well, as can be seen by some of the people performing on youtube. and sometimes it is hard to tell the families apart. BSCLF definately has a fighting rep and attitude-not saying that others don't, just that BSCLF is very much "out there" with it. I think all CLF prides themselves on their fighting and willingness to throw down, Frank is certainly no exception, which is why I am such a big fan!
I am sure that it is more a matter of how the style was passed down, and by whom, and under which circumstances, that determines this, but there definately seem to be certain characteristics, or flavor that separates the families.
Then again, please remember that I am speaking as an observer, more from the outside, than the inside.

[CLFNole]

k-no:

You missed my point. Of course all the branches differ in teaching methods and philosophies about fighting but CLF is CLF. Gwa, sow, chop, biu there is no mistaking that forms can be different and techniques can be played different but it is what it is.

[Fu-Pow]

It was only a matter of time before the Bak Sing guys on this forum started bashing Hung Sing and Chan Family. Go figure.

[TenTigers]

it'd only be a matter of time before Fu-Pow has all the Buk-Sing guys on his ignore list. What am I saying? All the CLF GUYS on his ignore list!!!!:D:D:D

[stout]

Don't make misunderstanding based on forums or videos. If you want to know get out and ask on each school.

This is the reason I am posting. There seems to be many CLF experts from different schools here I can exchange with. I have never claimed anything i say is 100%, I am all open to learning and deciding my own mind. History as it seems is very much dependent on whose side you are on. Evolution of CLF technique is very interesting and I really enjoy being able to exchange with different Sihings here.

[k-no]

'CLF is CLF' is a blanket statement that a lot of people wouldn't agree with 'Nole, but I know where you're coming from and I'm sure many others do too.

And leave it to FA6-pow to show up to say something so mindlessly idiotic and false that I don't even know what to say. I mean it's hard to get mad at someone so obviously mentally impaired. Maybe he can blame his little brain deficiency on his past Choy Lay Fut practice too.

And where in this whole mess did Frank disrespect the late Wong Ha? Did that outburst from Joseph get drunk and stumble into the wrong thread? Good lord, what a circus lol

[Fu-Pow]

it'd only be a matter of time before Fu-Pow has all the Buk-Sing guys on his ignore list. What am I saying? All the CLF GUYS on his ignore list!!!!:D:D:D

No, just the obnoxious ones who have nothing to say.

[Steeeve]

Greatest to Sifu The General Dave Lacey and Sifu Vince Lacey ....The only one to have the respect and the skills .....of Buk sing ....plus the other one Satori and dont remember all

Everybody here seem to talk .......exeption of Sifu Frank .....and the Lacey Brothers who show what its talk about ...with their you tube videos

Rock on Brothers sorry bad english here hope to be understood

Steeve

[hskwarrior]

steeve,

you're a good guy.

Ten Tigers,

you're right. it matters who and how it's transmitted. Each new generation offers thier own personal touch. Each new generation moves differently than the last. Hopefully that is evolution.


the one thing to remember is.........there are "performers" and then their are "fighters"...........performers look good, on point, each move expertly executed. but, when it comes to realistic fighting, staying "classical" is far too slow. as a fighter, you have to adjust your gung fu to feel comfortable, natural, and effective.

I have yet to see ANY kung fu master using their style realistically, and still looking classical.

if anyone knows of any footage of a classical fight in a realistic setting, or even in the ring.....pls let me know.

[Steeeve]

Frank

Good point here and 100 % agree with you


Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

you're right. it matters who and how it's transmitted. Each new generation offers thier own personal touch. Each new generation moves differently than the last. Hopefully that is evolution.

Very definitely.
Yes.... although I might venture that it's actually the individual's "touch".


the one thing to remember is.........there are "performers" and then their are "fighters"...........performers look good, on point, each move expertly executed. but, when it comes to realistic fighting, staying "classical" is far too slow. as a fighter, you have to adjust your gung fu to feel comfortable, natural, and effective.


Why do you seem to feel that a "fighter" cannot execute a move "expertly"?
If the degree of expertise could be seen in how closely a technique approaches
the "classical" in actual application.... "comfortable, natural, and effective" does NOT have to equal "non-classical".

OTOH, I guess it's entirely possible that you've successfully used a move that "too closely approximated"
"the classical" and actually castigated yourself over this "shortcoming"....
You MIGHT even have said something like: "DARN! I shoulda been sloppier!"
(I wouldn't)


I have yet to see ANY kung fu master using their style realistically, and still looking classical.

Are there any masters you haven't seen?

[hskwarrior]

no, i don't mean that a fighter won't do well in forms, i just mean forms and fighting are two different animals.

anyone can be a great performer. not everyone can be a great fighter.

and yes, there are MANY masters i haven't seen. many man of them. i'm not that old to see so many masters.....

have YOU seen all the masters there are?

[hskwarrior]

or i could have said......."darn, he moved and is now too close to do that move.."


but i don't USE the word DARN too much:D

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

It was only a matter of time before the Bak Sing guys on this forum started bashing Hung Sing and Chan Family. Go figure.


Fu Pow your an idiot!

Didnt you give up CLF?

Who cares what you say?

If you read clearly earlier on in our discusions on this forum ( which didnt involve you ) we were just stating the aspects of our BSG Branch of CLF that makes it different to Hung Sing and Chan family CLF.

My Sifu is great friends/respects and is well respected by GM Chan Yong Fa ( Chan Family) and also Hung Sing elders.

Your just a loser who now wants to create issues where there are none so shut the F**K up!

Nick
Buck Sing Gwoon

[hskwarrior]

oh, and i meant every new lineage holder......who would be an individual.;)

[hskwarrior]

watch out nick.....he might put you on his ignore list........


oh snap.....too late.:(

[hskwarrior]

what about you nick?

in your school, do you also include some of your own understandings of the Buk SIng system?

In my opinion we all can't be mirror images of our sifu's, so we have to rely on our personal experience and knowledge. sometimes even to evolve the system for the new millenium.

[bakxierboxer]

no, i don't mean that a fighter won't do well in forms, i just mean forms and fighting are two different animals.

By the same token, a "fighter" might just possibly execute a move in combat that is pretty "spot on" as regards "classical form".
Personally, every time that happens for me, I'm happy. :D


anyone can be a great performer. not everyone can be a great fighter.

Wrong on the first and right on the second.
That said, it's rather rare for someone to be both.
From what I've seen of the videos you've (?) posted, the Laceys (The General in particular) have that combination. "Something about" BukSing... a certain "flair" and a certain "attitude" on the part of The General makes me think that he'd fight very much the way he demonstrates.... and that's so close to "classical" that I'm not readily able to say it's not.


and yes, there are MANY masters i haven't seen.

Geeez! we have something in common? :D

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Hy Frank,

Check you PM

Regards,

Nick
Buck Sing Gwoon

[bakxierboxer]

or i could have said......."darn, he moved and is now too close to do that move.."

I usually just roll it into an elbow.


but i don't USE the word DARN too much:D

Me neither, but I was trying to avoid "the censor". ****IT!:o

[hskwarrior]

nick no pm as of yet.

[bakxierboxer]

oh, and i meant every new lineage holder......who would be an individual.;)

AS opposed to those plodding masses of individu---- uh, clon... uhm, students? :)

[hskwarrior]

yeah, but thats what i mean......that type of mentality isn't typically used.

and the lacey's are 100% the forerunners for the fighting clf.

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah, joke or not, there are sooooo many who are clones, and don't have a personal soul.:eek:

[bakxierboxer]

yeah, but thats what i mean......that type of mentality isn't typically used.

Like my sub-title... "different strokes for different folks".
Mine varies by opponent.


and the lacey's are 100% the forerunners for the fighting clf.

I don't see that they do so bad in the classical form department either.... or in "translating" it into their demos and combat applications.

BukSing and/or the Laceys are not "me", but I certainly like what they do.

[bakxierboxer]

oh yeah, joke or not, there are sooooo many who are clones, and don't have a personal soul.:eek:

All things considered, being an actual clone would be a "good thing".
An actual replica of the original?
I wish.....
I content myself with what I have been able to replicate.
(and continue to work on "the rest")

[hskwarrior]

hopefully this won't offend any buk sing family, but the way the lacey's move is classical for THEM. but thats the great part. if anyone trying to imitate their "way" people will know.

so what IS you then? what attracts you?

[hskwarrior]

but being a replica is just a copy, and since we aren't inanimate?........that doesn't apply to people. although i do understand.

one of the biggest compliments i got was from my si-sooks who mentioed they can identify me as my sifu's student cause i flowed like him.

in the beginning while i was in my infant stages, i imitated my sifu until i OWNED my gung fu. then i realized i move differently than he does, and that since there was a size difference we focused on different things.

but to back up your claim, i will say this......once while visiting sifu troy dunwood in oakland, i noticed this man performing tat wong's clf, but he was in a lau bun horse. when he was finished, i asked where he studied Lau Bun Hung SIng clf from.......it startled him cause he didn't know how i knew.

but it was his horse stance. it's an earmark of the lau bun lineage.

[bakxierboxer]

hopefully this won't offend any buk sing family, but the way the lacey's move is classical for THEM. but thats the great part. if anyone trying to imitate their "way" people will know.

so what IS you then? what attracts you?

Less "flair"/"attitude".... perhaps a different one that's more "work-man-like" with some possibility that it's related to my former employment as a butcher? :eek:

Background includes lotsa stuff, but my main line of TMA starts with hard-style Kajukenbo, Ng Gar Kin, H'ung Kuen, Tao Gar and Mak Gar... with a bit of Northern Shaolin and PakHok Pai to round things out.

That pretty much describes what I is.

[hskwarrior]

cool:D,......

[bakxierboxer]

but being a replica is just a copy, and since we aren't inanimate?........that doesn't apply to people. although i do understand.

"One day", scientists will eventually get around to successfully cloning someone.
That will replicate the physical body, but I don't know of anyone who thinks that the total sum of the originals' life-experience will accrue to that copy.


one of the biggest compliments i got was from my si-sooks who mentioed they can identify me as my sifu's student cause i flowed like him.

I admit that I'm older than you are.... one of my own happiest moments was when I could "see" my Sifu's movements in one of my best students.... and he physically looked nothing at all like either one of us.
That told me I was "doing something right".


in the beginning while i was in my infant stages, i imitated my sifu until i OWNED my gung fu. then i realized i move differently than he does, and that since there was a size difference we focused on different things.

We've all gotta start somewhere, and that's seldom a bad choice.
??? sounds like we "went to different schools together". :D


but to back up your claim, i will say this......once while visiting sifu troy dunwood in oakland, i noticed this man performing tat wong's clf, but he was in a lau bun horse. when he was finished, i asked where he studied Lau Bun Hung SIng clf from.......it startled him cause he didn't know how i knew.

The ACTUAL form of "TCMA genetics".


but it was his horse stance. it's an earmark of the lau bun lineage.

You mean that kinda "turn" of his torso?

[hskwarrior]

the look of the sei ping ma itself.

while others have pretty wide horses, I've seen our horse in old old elders pictures, but its not too wide, not too short. but the boxy look of it, the pressure of the feet on the floor and such is what i'm speaking about.

[hskwarrior]

the guy in this picture to my right....the filipino guy in the front row with me does a good horse. this horse is typical of our lineage. others will have similar, but other are way way wider than this.

[bakxierboxer]

the look of the sei ping ma itself.

while others have pretty wide horses, I've seen our horse in old old elders pictures, but its not too wide, not too short. but the boxy look of it, the pressure of the feet on the floor and such is what i'm speaking about.

Did you ever see any of the old pix from the demos in Marysville?

[Fu-Pau]

hsk,

Thanks for sharing.

I should point out, however that the form in this video is not the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) Fu Pau Kuen form. It looks very “Jow Ga” flavoured in the techniques shown, but it is not the Chow Gar, Fu Pau Kuen as practiced in Chow Gar. Unfortunately I can’t get my hands on one to show as comparison though.

I realise of course that Master Kong On was originally a student of Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar), and that some of his Chow Gar came into his BS CLF lineage. This leads me to ask, as I have always been curious to know, if the Chow Gar in this particular lineage of BS CLF is (a) taught as a separate art, or (b) fused in with the CLF as a blended art? It is very rare to see any of it on the net, so I have always been curious? The comments at the bottom of that video clip suggest that the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) forms taught are the more blended sort, with names such as “Jow Ga Kuen #1” “Jow Ga Kuen # 2” etc.

Perhaps Nick or anyone else from that lineage, knows the answer to that one?

Cheers

Sorry to interupt all the inter lineage/branch intreague... but I was genuinely interested in the above.

Cheers

Fu-Pau

[hskwarrior]

yeah i i have


and i got a website on the bak kai festival

[bakxierboxer]

the guy in this picture to my right....the filipino guy in the front row with me does a good horse. this horse is typical of our lineage. others will have similar, but other are way way wider than this.

Yeah, I can see that, but IIRC that's still not Ben Lew's horse, and that technique would probably have been one that would have shown the particular turn that I'm thinking about.

[hskwarrior]

how do you know of Lau Bun's horse.

i have pictures of lau bun in his horse.

however, that horse is typical of lau bun lineage

but lau bun's was more bowed shape with the arch in the legs.

[hskwarrior]

whats iirc?

[The Xia]

http://www.plumblossom.net/PhotoAlbum/LauBun/LauBunStu65.jpg
bakxierboxer mentioned a "turn" of the torso. Lau Bun's torso is turned to his right in this picture.

[bakxierboxer]

how do you know of Lau Bun's horse.

i have pictures of lau bun in his horse.

however, that horse is typical of lau bun lineage

but lau bun's was more bowed shape with the arch in the legs.

Mostly pix, a little old 8mm from Marysville.
I go back to the early 60s with John Leoning, Wong Ark Yuey, and Share Lew.
Yes, more "bowed", although in most cases he was doing something other than just standing there and had "that turn".

[bakxierboxer]

whats iirc?

"If I Recall Correctly"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=IIRC

Handy reference for lots of acronyms and put-downs.... 'way more than I usually use, but probably "handy" in a strange sort of Internet way.

[bakxierboxer]

http://www.plumblossom.net/PhotoAlbum/LauBun/LauBunStu65.jpg
bakxierboxer mentioned a "turn" of the torso. Lau Bun's torso is turned to his right in this picture.

I'd really like to see that....but the site is blocking me.

[The Xia]

I'd really like to see that....but the site is blocking me.
I found the same picture on a different website. I don't know what this is doing on a site called "parrygamepreserve" (which appears to be dedicated to toys and games), but it was one of the first pictures to come up in a google image search for "Lau Bun."
http://www.parrygamepreserve.com/images/LauBunStu65.jpg

[bakxierboxer]

I found the same picture on a different website. I don't know what this is doing on a site called "parrygamepreserve" (which appears to be dedicated to toys and games), but it was one of the first pictures to come up in a google image search for "Lau Bun."
http://www.parrygamepreserve.com/images/LauBunStu65.jpg

As in the sub-title:

DRAT! I should've done that myself!

Thanks.... but "that's not it".
His horse is higher and the turn is more pronounced in this apparent teaching session. where he's "more or less" "just" helping the guy to get the right position in his own move... as opposed to *doing* it.... although as a two-man "attack scenario"...

[hskwarrior]

bakxier.

you mentioned footage from marysville.

do you have lau bun on filme performing?

[bakxierboxer]

bakxier.

you mentioned footage from marysville.

do you have lau bun on filme performing?


I wish... I think (IIRC) :) those films belonged to John Leoning and are now "lost" along with most of his photos, etc. Something to do with his "domestic arrangements" "back then". The Kajukenbo historians would dearly love to get their hands on some of that material.
There was a really great group photo from Marysville of "the whole crew" Ben Lew, Share Lew, Sig Mar, Johnny Mar, Leoning, etc.... John was smiling like crazy. :)
Of course, everyone else had the traditional "non-expression".

[hskwarrior]

from my understanding, Share Lew is one of the few people Lau Bun taught Ping Kuen too.

[bakxierboxer]

from my understanding, Share Lew is one of the few people Lau Bun taught Ping Kuen too.

Don't know.
I'd been training Kajukenbo and then Ng Gar Kin in the early 60s.
By the time Share Lew hit LA in the mid/late 60s he was going more towards his Taoist material.... although I believe he taught some CLF to John Davidson and possibly a couple of others. At that particular time I'd moved to the East coast and was teaching Kajukenbo and finally hooked up with the first folks to teach non-Chinese in NYC Chinatown & began training in H'ung Kuen.
I learned some of The Tao Dan Pai & Tao Gar during a few visits, but by the time I moved back to LA, he'd pretty much stopped doing any TCMA at all. :(

Heh! If I'd actually learned any CLF from such a source, I certainly would have listed it! :D

[Steeeve]

Baxierboxer

Who teached Hung kuen in the late sixties in NY chinatown ? The fu jow pai clan ?:D

Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

Baxierboxer

Who teached Hung kuen in the late sixties in NY chinatown ? The fu jow pai clan ?:D

Steeve

William J. Chung.
First public classes were at the Hoboken, NJ YMCA.
Other classes followed at Aaron Banks' schools on 40-something Street and later around-the-corner and across-the-street on Broadway.
"We" moved the classes to NYC Chinatown in Mark Gin Foon's first kwoon on East Broadway in 1967.

I think that SiFu Chung also ran another class at a NYC YMCA, but I was only there once to "roust" the other students.

[TenTigers]

I had the good fortune to see an old vid -made from a tape, of William Chung and his students. Chung did some stuff with a whip chain, and some parts of a form, and his students did a few forms. I did not recognize the forms. Do you know where Chung learned his Hung Kuen from? It does not resemble any Hung Kuen I am familiar with. I will see if I can get it put on youtube...

[Steeeve]

Sifu Peterobinson

rock on ...The chinese shaolin boxing Association....;)

Pleasure to talk with you old timer Pete:)

Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

Sifu Peterobinson

rock on ...The chinese shaolin boxing Association....;)

Pleasure to talk with you old timer Pete:)

Steeve

Heh!
"just went through that....." in the "BS" thread.

The "Chinese Shaolin Boxing Association" was my student, Butch Crofton, who was an early teacher of M. Manganiello(?) who now runs his own Ling Nam Kwoon on Long Island.

Butch used that name for reasons best known to himself, but it seems to me that he was "resistant" to training under "non-Americans" (aka "Chinese folks")(aka he was "xenophobic") and could not or would not comply with what was necessary to use the original name "Chinese Shaolin Kung fu Association".

[Steeeve]

You said
Heh!
"just went through that....." in the "BS" thread

Sifu Peter I dont read the BS thread .....before post that ....Kajukenbo forever :D

Here a hung kuen or hung chia by Gm Lao kim from Phillipine branch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tItmXHc-qwI

Does look like what you learned?

[bakxierboxer]

You said
Heh!
"just went through that....." in the "BS" thread

Sifu Peter I dont read the BS thread .....before post that ....Kajukenbo forever :D

Here a hung kuen or hung chia by Gm Lao kim from Phillipine branch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tItmXHc-qwI

Does look like what you learned?

I see some H'ung Kuen in it and I also think that the way he does it looks more than a little bit like Ng Gar Kin....

By the way, I also don't "go" by "Sifu" on lists/boards/whatever, and just plain "Pete" is also quite good enough.

[Steeeve]

No Problem Pete

Good hung kuen here GM Lao Kim was a real one ....agree with you look like ng ga kuen:)


Steeeve

[Steeeve]

My apologize here the threat is for Gm Tam sam of Buk sing CLF ...We have to go to our own thread of Ng Ga Kin(kuen)

No disrespect just confusion...

Steeve

[bakxierboxer]

I had the good fortune to see an old vid -made from a tape, of William Chung and his students. Chung did some stuff with a whip chain, and some parts of a form, and his students did a few forms. I did not recognize the forms. Do you know where Chung learned his Hung Kuen from? It does not resemble any Hung Kuen I am familiar with. I will see if I can get it put on youtube...

I thought that was also pretty well covered in that "BS" thread.

When you say "old"... what year?
If it was a "public" demo, it's hard for me to say what the content would have been.
We got (ok, SiFu Chung and SiGung Mark) *A LOT* of "static" for "opening the H'ung" to the public.... which led to a number of "other problems".

SiFu Chung was also not "above" "adapting" forms from other systems.
"On one occasion", he'd been to HK with his family and his son had learned a form
at an "open" SPM kwoon.... "The 18 Palms of the Winding Dragon".
He wanted *everyone* to learn it.
There was a lot of p!ssing and moaning....
SiFu Chung: "It is NOT that hard! Pete can learn it in under a half-hour!"
(looking directly and challengingly at me....)(aka "you'd ****ed well BETTER do it!")
Me: {silent}{mumble/grumble/mf-this/mf-that/d@mmit!}
(for myself, I later renamed it "The 18 Palms of the WhingDing Dragon")
Some days later, one of my senior students who'd been in attendance was relating "the expression SiFu had on his face!"
I immediately donned my very best cat-who-ate-the-canary smile, and informed HIM that he was not going to learn another d@mned thing until he'd "mastered" that (execrable piece of cr@p) set.
Of course, a good part of the reason the set was "as it was" had to do with the fact that it had been learned by a young boy.... in an "open" school with no "breakdown"/"chai".

[chasincharpchui]

I thought that was also pretty well covered in that "BS" thread.

When you say "old"... what year?
If it was a "public" demo, it's hard for me to say what the content would have been.
We got (ok, SiFu Chung and SiGung Mark) *A LOT* of "static" for "opening the H'ung" to the public.... which led to a number of "other problems".

SiFu Chung was also not "above" "adapting" forms from other systems.
"On one occasion", he'd been to HK with his family and his son had learned a form
at an "open" SPM kwoon.... "The 18 Palms of the Winding Dragon".
He wanted *everyone* to learn it.
There was a lot of p!ssing and moaning....
SiFu Chung: "It is NOT that hard! Pete can learn it in under a half-hour!"
(looking directly and challengingly at me....)(aka "you'd ****ed well BETTER do it!")
Me: {silent}{mumble/grumble/mf-this/mf-that/d@mmit!}
(for myself, I later renamed it "The 18 Palms of the WhingDing Dragon")
Some days later, one of my senior students who'd been in attendance was relating "the expression SiFu had on his face!"
I immediately donned my very best cat-who-ate-the-canary smile, and informed HIM that he was not going to learn another d@mned thing until he'd "mastered" that (execrable piece of cr@p) set.
Of course, a good part of the reason the set was "as it was" had to do with the fact that it had been learned by a young boy.... in an "open" school with no "breakdown"/"chai".

This thread is for ppl to talk and ask questions about the buck sing fighting arts of GM tarm sarm

im not interested nor do i care bout hung kuen/ng gar kuen or william chung

start your own thread bout hung kuen or ng gar kuen

[bakxierboxer]

This thread is for ppl to talk and ask questions about the buck sing fighting arts of GM tarm sarm

im not interested nor do i care bout hung kuen/ng gar kuen or william chung

start your own thread bout hung kuen or ng gar kuen

"Sorry 'bout that!"
Noted.
Now, "if only" "some others" (including some moderators) would be so kind as to remain OT... um... better be more specific.... "ON TOPIC"?

[Fu-Pau]

This thread is for ppl to talk and ask questions about the buck sing fighting arts

I did… twice… nobody answered it…;)

[Vilmore]

doesn't mean people should start discussing totally unrelated subjects, the tread is still called "The Buck Sing Fighting Arts of Grandmaster Tarm Sarm" as far as I know.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

You mustn't forget Sherriff Chau Tai's contribution to Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut. Chau Tai was also one of the Ten Tigers from Canton, along with Wong Fei Hung. Chau Tai contributed the 8 foot single end or rat tail staff to the CLF system, as well as his family style of Chau Gah. I had the great honor of studying under his great great grandson Michael Chau.

[CLFNole]

I have read Chau Tai was famous for his soul-chasing staff but never read anywhere that he was buk sing or CLF for that matter.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Yes, Chau Tai did contribute to Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut and the subsequent generations of his lineage still continue to teach. Chau Zhou (Michael Chau) taught in his village since the age of 12 and is now living in S.F.
Side note--My brother studied Mok Gar and Southern Dragon in San Diego; after meeting Sifu Chau he said he learned more in 10 minutes with him than in 10 years from his (former) teacher!

[CLFNole]

When you say contributed to buk sing do you mean with staff techniques becuase he himself wasn't buk sing was he?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You mustn't forget Sherriff Chau Tai's contribution to Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut. Chau Tai was also one of the Ten Tigers from Canton, along with Wong Fei Hung. Chau Tai contributed the 8 foot single end or rat tail staff to the CLF system, as well as his family style of Chau Gah. I had the great honor of studying under his great great grandson Michael Chau.

You're incorrect.

Wong Fei Hung was NOT one of the Ten Tigers. His father Wong Kei-Ying was.

[CLFNole]

I have heard Wong Fei Hung was part of the 2nd group of tigers, but Chow Tai is always linked with the 1st group which also include Wong Kay Ying among others.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Yes, Chau Tai contributed the single end staff to Buk Sing CLF and it eventually became apart of the other systems. Though Hung Sing teaches the single end staff later on, Buk Sing teaches it earlier.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Chau Tai did learn Buk Sing and passed this system, among his own, down his family's lineage.

[hskwarrior]

i don't know whose video this is.........

but here's some buk sing for your arse!!!!!!!!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=4495548

[hskwarrior]

here's another awesome performance of Shane Lacey....


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=8080924

[Fu-Pau]

here's another awesome performance of Shane Lacey....


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=8080924

That was good.
Very good structure, footwork, timing and clearly good appreciation of the application involved.

[jow yeroc]

Excellent performance. Say what you want, the Lacey's are a credit to
Buck Sing!!

[jari]

the Laceys are a credit to CLF. just like many other people, regardless of "branch"...

[jow yeroc]

tru dat jari!!! I stand corrected.:)

[hskwarrior]

WIth more schools like this the better CLF begins to look.

I knew shane was good.......but DAMMMM

[Tai-Lik]

Shane's form is excellent. i've only met him once many years ago, but i've heard from reliable friends that he's a good fighter too. good rep for CMA

hskwarrior: your clf looks real tight (good) too.

peace

[jow yeroc]

Yes i enjoyed your videos too sifu Frank!! Keep up the good work!

[hskwarrior]

hey thanks folks.

i wasn't expectin that.:o

but i truly apprectiate your kind comments.:D

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Yeah, I've seen Lacey do that form several times at Tat Mau Wong's International in San Francisco. The Laceys speak Cantonese fluently, so they get the respect from the Chinese practitioners right away. Someone should find a video of the Chasing the Wind Broadsword from BSCLF, that would be treat.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Hey! I corresponded with you on You Tube a few times. How's everything going?

[hskwarrior]

ey now, everything is good:D

thanks for asking

[Buk&Hung Sing]

I saw this one already. Do have any spear or braodsword forms?

[hskwarrior]

yeah but those are private........sorry.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Wait a minute!:confused: We go way back (1 month)!:D
Do you know Chasing the Wind Braodsword form? Or LKH left handed spear form? Let's get some advanced and hard to find forms on the Net!:cool:

[CLFNole]

I have to say the sifu's left hand spear is neither rare nor really an advanced level form. In fact there is both a book and dvd for it. The form is taught more or less as an intermediate level set.

Right hand spear (not sup sam cheung) is a bit more rare in that not that many in the US were taught it but it really isn't advanced. Shek Kin's wun hop cheung that he passed on to sifu is more advanced but it isn't a CLF set.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

I have to say the sifu's left hand spear is neither rare nor really an advanced level form. In fact there is both a book and dvd for it. The form is taught more or less as an intermediate level set.

Right hand spear (not sup sam cheung) is a bit more rare in that not that many in the US were taught it but it really isn't advanced. Shek Kin's wun hop cheung that he passed on to sifu is more advanced but it isn't a CLF set.

I admit that's where I learned his spear (book)! I surprised the hell out of Sihing Tomazaki and Sifu Wong when I demonstrated it to them!:)

[CLFNole]

There are a couple of things in the book that are slightly changed by for the most part the form is the same. The DVD is the exact form though. All of the books have a slight modification to them, which makes it easy to tell when someone learned from the book.

I don't think Tat Wong even teaches this set does he?

[Buk&Hung Sing]

I have to say I love the Buk Sing Chasing the Wind Braodsword set. I enjoy the Ng Ying Darn Dao of Hung Sing as well, but BSCLF has more jumping and kicking in it.:D

[Buk&Hung Sing]

There are a couple of things in the book that are slightly changed by for the most part the form is the same. The DVD is the exact form though. All of the books have a slight modification to them, which makes it easy to tell when someone learned from the book.

I don't think Tat Wong even teaches this set does he?

No, just the basic spear set; at least through 1st degree.

[CLFNole]

For some reason his entire curriculum is quite a bit less than ours was. It does make it easier to control from a teaching perspective.

Never heard of Ng Ying Dan Do.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

For some reason his entire curriculum is quite a bit less than ours was. It does make it easier to control from a teaching perspective.

Never heard of Ng Ying Dan Do.

My interpretation was Ng Ying Darn Dao "five animal braodsword set" We also have Ng Ying Keun "five animal fist form." I may have misinterpreted the name since I have the sets I taught for TMW written down for instruction and review. TMW teaches Mui Fa Ying Cheung (spear), Chat Gum (fighting staff), Gum and the braodsword. TMW does probably teach less, the instructors really don't teach individually and pretty much milk the students for as long as they can; and after awhile are reluctant to teach new material at all. That's why I left, didn't feel appreciated and the attitude become so poor there. Especially after TMW's confidante revealed that they were going "show" a junior person the 24 Yang Tai Chi form and have him teach it to the students. That was poor ethical judgment as far as I'm concerned and left.

[CLFNole]

The LKH broadsword set is call Fu Mei Dan Do - Tiger Tail Broadsword. I have seen TMWs version and it has some changes.

The spear set is moi fah sup sam cheung - plum blossom 13 lunges spear.

Chak kwun - 2 man staff and I recall seeing a student do it as a solo set in SF.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

The LKH broadsword set is call Fu Mei Dan Do - Tiger Tail Broadsword. I have seen TMWs version and it has some changes.

The spear set is moi fah sup sam cheung - plum blossom 13 lunges spear.

Chak kwun - 2 man staff and I recall seeing a student do it as a solo set in SF.

I also note that LKH teaches the whirling staff, the same as TMW's dragon staff. Our Romanization is different, I wish there was a standard phonetic one; using combinations of letters that don't change, like in Italian. Do you think this is a big difference? I look at John Wai's forms and they appear to be the same as TMW's.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

CLF Nole,
When do you teach the wooden dummy to your students?

[CLFNole]

It depends. In the US it is more or less reserved for instructors or senior students and is not officially in the curriculum. I think I learned it about 9-10 years ago.

The "whirling staff or dragon staff" is called lung hang kwun or lung hang bien gwai kwun.

The forms are generally the same but I know there are some differences in parts of Tuet Tsin Kuen and Fu Mei Dan Do.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

TMW calls the first spear form Plum Flower Spear (Mui Fa Ying Cheung). It's a really basic set; also there's Chat Gum (fighting staff).
I learned the 34 movement wooden dummy from Michael Chau (Buk Sing) fairly early on, that's why I asked about it.

[Fu-Pau]

hsk,

Thanks for sharing.

I should point out, however that the form in this video is not the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) Fu Pau Kuen form. It looks very “Jow Ga” flavoured in the techniques shown, but it is not the Chow Gar, Fu Pau Kuen as practiced in Chow Gar. Unfortunately I can’t get my hands on one to show as comparison though.

I realise of course that Master Kong On was originally a student of Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar), and that some of his Chow Gar came into his BS CLF lineage. This leads me to ask, as I have always been curious to know, if the Chow Gar in this particular lineage of BS CLF is (a) taught as a separate art, or (b) fused in with the CLF as a blended art? It is very rare to see any of it on the net, so I have always been curious? The comments at the bottom of that video clip suggest that the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) forms taught are the more blended sort, with names such as “Jow Ga Kuen #1” “Jow Ga Kuen # 2” etc.

Perhaps Nick or anyone else from that lineage, knows the answer to that one?

Cheers

By comparison – Fu Pao Kune as performed in the Jow Ga (Chow Gar) style (allowing for minor inter school/lineage variations).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i9w7shYNgg