Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications [Archive]

grncastle

06-09-2007, 08:04 PM

Never-the-less, my opinion is what I stated. I have over three decades involved with Chinese Internal Martial Art, especially xingyi. To my eye, involving the video clip in question, it seems that the structure is not well grounded and the techniques are being delivered primarily with mechanical energy from the shoulder.

I feel sorry about your three decade's of Xingyi training; it is a total waste of time since you haven't learned anything (or even learn something wrong) judging from what you said here. If this is really what you saw in the video, you'd better start looking for a genuine Xingyi teacher and start all over again.

Also, given my experiences in fighting, many of the techniques (especially those involving spinning the body completely around while in the centerline of the opponent) are very foolish and will be easily countered. I stand by my opinions whether you agree or disagree.

The spinning actually is a back strike. It is quite common in Bagua also. There is a lot of skill involved in this kind of move. Your bad experiences may be due to your poor skill in executing this kind of advanced movement.

I thought the purpose of a forum was to be able to post one's opinions without censure. I made two statements based on my experience regarding the video clip posted, neither of which were derogatory. Unless of course all comments posted which are not filled with glowing praise are to be considered derogatory.

When you say something ridiculously and outrageously untrue, every sensible participants in the forum felt it. To maintain the integrity and prestige of this forum, you should be responsible for what you say. Do you need me to remind you about the comments on you by Master Mike Patterson in a previous thread?

suddenflower

06-09-2007, 09:19 PM

I have had many genuine xingyi teachers. Not that it would matter to you, but some of my teachers have been or are currently some of the most respected in the field. And no, don't bother to ask me to disclose their names. I am here of my own accord, not theirs.

And yes, that is really what I saw in the video. Remember I did originally say there were some good things as well as some bad and some ridiculous. My other comment had to do with the mechanics and what seems to me to be a performance that is not worthy of the title "master", although I will concede that he is beyond novice certainly and approaching decent skills. And you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

A good bagua exponent would not execute a spinning "strike" to the inside of the opponent's center line. Spinning movements in bagua that are executed to the centerline are draws (flashing the back), not attacks. Your statements belie how little you actually understand about real fighting. And you, like so many others, are a victim of your own ignorance. On the other hand, I have fought both in competition and the street for most of my adult life. My "experiences" have nothing to do with a poor skill level. They have to do with reality. And reality says that such a technique will work only on scared students. But a determined opponent with decent skills will own you.

To save your time in describing your credentials and justifying your authorities, why don't you post a video, e.g., splitting fist or anything you have taped during the past three decades, so that we can tell how good you are? We are looking forward to seeing it.

grncastle

06-09-2007, 09:51 PM

I have had many genuine xingyi teachers. Not that it would matter to you, but some of my teachers have been or are currently some of the most respected in the field. And no, don't bother to ask me to disclose their names. I am here of my own accord, not theirs.

Since your teachers are "the most respected in the field," then the problem may be that you didn't learn the essences of Xingyiquan. Even the greatest teacher in the world may produce a student with very poor skill.

My other comment had to do with the mechanics and what seems to me to be a performance that is not worthy of the title "master", although I will concede that he is beyond novice certainly and approaching decent skills. And you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But, don't forget that your opinion will be judged by the public.

A good bagua exponent would not execute a spinning "strike" to the inside of the opponent's center line. Spinning movements in bagua that are executed to the centerline are draws (flashing the back), not attacks. Your statements belie how little you actually understand about real fighting. And you, like so many others, are a victim of your own ignorance. On the other hand, I have fought both in competition and the street for most of my adult life. My "experiences" have nothing to do with a poor skill level. They have to do with reality. And reality says that such a technique will work only on scared students. But a determined opponent with decent skills will own you.

This actually reflects your ignorance on Bagua fighting. To avoid misjudging you, why don't you follow the suggestion of suddenflower to post a video on Bagua spinning movement?

You can remind all you want. That does not change my opinions. As I said, I don't impress easily. And the video clip does not impress me. End of story.
No body asked you to be impressed by the video. Just be reasonable and responsible on what you said.

chrisfreel

06-10-2007, 12:43 AM

Uh huh. You first.

And I have all the time in the world. The reason I chose the name I did.. Anone.. is for two purposes. 1) "Anon" - Tomorrow; because there is always tomorrow and another day of training is another day toward true skill. And, 2) "a+none" as in I do not consider myself to be more than any other, hence "none".

But in regards to the man behind the mask; I am known by many and the many I do not wish to offend. Therefore, as I said earlier.. I am here of my own accord, not theirs. I say what I wish because the internet gives me, and you, and any other, the platform to do exactly that.

Because I go against your truth, you attack and belittle me. That's okay. Such resorts are always manifest in those who do not know but choose to believe. I have no problem with that and actually understand your mentality all too well.

I go on these forums so that there is not only "one voice". Because many who are truly seeking also go on these forums and I want them to have the opportunity to see differing opinions. Live with it.

You must be a troll. When he asks you to post a vid showing us anything to verify your skill, you say "you first". Uh, he did post something first. The video that started this thread, remember? Then you blather on about about your name. Like anyone cares. You talk a lot but don't say very much. Put up or shut up.

grncastle

06-10-2007, 09:51 AM

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

Your statement here again reflects your poor reasoning ability. It is you who were asked to post a video in order to substantiate your claim that you are an expert in Xingyi or Bagua. Suddenflower has never claimed that he/she is an expert of any martial arts and there is no need for him/her to establish credability. Besides starting the thread, all he/she has said in this forum is to ask you to post a video. Whether he is Wei-Chung Lin or not is not an issue here. Don't try to shift our attention and evade the issue of you posting a video to establish your credability.

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 03:06 PM

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

chrisfreel

06-10-2007, 03:11 PM

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

I actually don't know who "suddenflower" is. They asked you to post a video proving you're not some little 13 year old talking big from his mom's basement. Your response was "you first". Hey, they started the thread with a video, it doesn't matter whether it's them or not. You're the one with no cred.

But like I said already, you're probably here just to start arguments. You said you have lots of time. Maybe it's all for posting on the internet, not for practice.

chrisfreel

06-10-2007, 03:23 PM

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right? Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video. Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. :D This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 03:39 PM

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right?
the shoulders, of course, have to move, but the question is what does the moving? if talking about purely neuromuscular activation, it's basically starting and ending with anterior deltoids; when the power generation is from the pedal diaphragm (Subterannean Spring), it travels through the connective tissue network of the legs, spine and then to the shoulders where it joins the neuromuscular component

Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video.
I'm not actually looking for visible movement; there is a qualitative aspect of whole body connective tissue activation that is discernable, albeit, as you point out, it is more difficult to see on a video; which is why I qualified it with "as far as I can tell"; basically, when it's there, the feeling is one of ease and fullness, when not, it's like driving your car with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake; as far as your subjective experience of feeling it directly, I have no capacity to refute that, since I haven't felt it myself; you may be delusional, you may be right on, I have no way of knowing;

Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.
please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. :D This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.
I'm not talking about pulling, i;m talking about context; that is, some of the apps look like "regular" boring old fighting; others are much more stylized, but rely on too many variables going the way you want them to be really applicable; which is fine, it is a martial "art", there is always going to be some stuff that is more artistic than others...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....
well, I don't know - it seems that people have a problem more with how something was said then what was said; but I haven't followed any of his other stuff, so I can't compare

cruz

06-10-2007, 04:13 PM

Look Its Realy Hard To Say If Some One Has Real Skill Or Not Or Is Connected To The Core Or Not Just By Watching A Video .he May Just Be Empty Movements Or He May Be The Real Deal .you Will Never Know Inless You Get To Meat Him ..but I Can See Were Anone Gets His Opinion From

swimgrad

06-10-2007, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;769176]I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;
QUOTE]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

suddenflower

06-10-2007, 04:50 PM

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 05:09 PM

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

sounds a lot like what we do in our school - in normal English, it's utilizing the connective tissue network, including the deep fascia of the dural membranes, to conduct ground reaction force that is generated through the interrction of the body via the breath to the floor; there is also some function of the autonomics related to this, typically that is what gets "opened up" through things like Miro / macro cosmic orbit practice

it's not particularly revolutionary, it has been described in various ways by various people over the years (especially in soe of the western integrated body movement systems) - physics is physics, always has been, always will be - anything that works in harmony with natural systems along the lines of complex theory / tensegrity will have that same effect; and in my experience, there is nothing in any of this stuff that can't be described without using Chinese terminology

again, it's hard to see, it's more a feel - and I did watch the feet, it's actually the main thing I was watching - as you say, it can be imperceptable, harder to tell from video, and only by feeling or discussing it directly with the individual can it be truly ascertained; but I make my living watching people move every day and am trained both in regular kinesiology / biomechanics as well as internal practice, so I can typically spot it for what it is; again, I am not saying absolutely, it's just what it looked like

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 06:01 PM

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

well, again, movement is never really independent of breathing (even when you lock the breath, something is happening on a cellular level, but anyway) - it's just a question of how the movement of the respiratory structures coordinates with the axial spine and extremities - as for being able to talk and strike, ok, that's as may be - and yes, you can do the same move with differnt breath configuration - you'll get different results in terms of what happens (e.g. - repelling someone versus grounding someone);

swimgrad

06-10-2007, 06:29 PM

Please elaborate why this is "revolutionary"?:confused:
Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 06:52 PM

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

chrisfreel

06-10-2007, 08:16 PM

Anone, you see what you want to see. You liked what you saw for body mechanics in the clip of Master Pan, but you didn't like seeing it in a Hsing Yi form or applications. Whatever. It's the same mechanism.

Right now there's little point in talking to you... you're defensive like a little child, so there's no discussion, only reaction on your part.

swimgrad

06-10-2007, 08:18 PM

chrisfreel

06-10-2007, 08:20 PM

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

That's interesting. I have yet to see someone else using the same mechanism, at least in a generalized sense. I've seen examples where others use pieces of it for single actions, though. Do you have links to examples of this? Your descriptions of the anatomy don't sound like quite the same thing as what's going on here, but it'd be more clear to me with diagrams, video, etc.

suddenflower

06-10-2007, 08:30 PM

Clip #2) Now this is an example of GOOD MECHANICS! And an anti-example to what is being demoed in the clip that started this thread.

Thank you for posting the clips. This man is very skilled and his body connection is both proper and very well honed. This is what should be manifest in a "master" level practitioner at a minimum and something that is not present in the clip at the top of this thread.

FYI: Master Lin is the only person approved by Master Pan to openly teach the Pre-Heaven Power Method in U. S. I don't blame you if you cannot see the relationship between Master Pan's basic fajing demos and the movements demonstrated by Master Lin in the Xingyi form. For someone unfamiliar with the method, it is very difficult to see how the method is used in the movements of traditional martial arts styles.

grncastle

06-10-2007, 08:46 PM

:)

Clip #2) Now this is an example of GOOD MECHANICS! And an anti-example to what is being demoed in the clip that started this thread.

Thank you for posting the clips. This man is very skilled and his body connection is both proper and very well honed. This is what should be manifest in a "master" level practitioner at a minimum and something that is not present in the clip at the top of this thread. I still stand by my original observations of that clip and these very much back up what I stated, if you have the eyes to see the difference. ;)

Actually, after swimgrad posted the videos of Pan, I knew someone will use the posts to attack Lin's video, i.e., praise the teacher to downgrade the student. This is a typical Chinese Communist fighting strategy: ally with the secondary enemy to attack the primary enemy.:)

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 09:07 PM

That's interesting. I have yet to see someone else using the same mechanism, at least in a generalized sense. I've seen examples where others use pieces of it for single actions, though. Do you have links to examples of this? Your descriptions of the anatomy don't sound like quite the same thing as what's going on here, but it'd be more clear to me with diagrams, video, etc.

no video or diagrams, just personal experience backed up by personal knowledge of anatomy / phys;

if you give me specific examples, I can try to clarify my previous statements

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 09:10 PM

You have responded as I expected about the revolutionary aspect of the Pre-Heaven Power Method. It was not my intention or to my interest to convince you about it in this forum. I just felt obliged to answer anone's question and provide some minimum background on the method.

spoken like a true zealot, and proof of your inability to handle the possibility that what you think makes your teacher and style special is actually not so rarified

you can't seem to understand that just because it's not unique doesn't devalue it - it actually strengthens the validity of it, because others have arrived at the same "truth" independently

cjurakpt

06-10-2007, 09:31 PM

FYI: Master Lin is the only person approved by Master Pan to openly teach the Pre-Heaven Power Method in U. S. I don't blame you if you cannot see the relationship between Master Pan's basic fajing demos and the movements demonstrated by Master Lin in the Xingyi form. For someone unfamiliar with the method, it is very difficult to see how the method is used in the movements of traditional martial arts styles.
the old "it' so unique, only we can tell what's happening"; in other words, if someone critiques it, they obviously don't see what's going on rather then the possibility that they are correct

movement is movement; principles are principles; truth is truth

rather than hide behind fancy names and redirection, why not discuss the method in more detail? at least I have provided some speific concepts and principles to illustrate my point; and at least one of your bretheren has made a folow-up inquiry when I did not provide enough clarity for him to make an informed assessment...

:)
Actually, after swimgrad posted the videos of Pan, I knew someone will use the posts to attack Lin's video, i.e., praise the teacher to downgrade the student. This is a typical Chinese Communist fighting strategy: ally with the secondary enemy to attack the primary enemy.:)

or, it shows that the source is sound and valid - ever think of that? remember, the downgrading of the student occured before the evidence of the teacher was presented; and this is the US - if we want to downgrade the student, we say that the teacher rots as well! we are a bit more literal and direct than the Chinese, no?

I happen to agree that Mr. Pan is apparantly a very connected and integrated practitioner, although I am always a bit leery of the "throw the student across the room" demos - typically the stuent is happy to "agree" with the teacher a bit more than a hostile resisting opponent would be; nevertheless, regardless of that, it is his quality of movement that impressed me - no rough edges, very much at ease

ramszman

06-10-2007, 10:49 PM

As someone who has just been practicing IMA for the past 18 years I have been very impressed with Hsing Yi of Master Lin. Both in person and on the video. I have seen and felt other Hsing Yi practicioners in the Chicagoland area and while they have been very skilled they have not demonstated the interconnective forces that I have felt from Master Lin. I would be curious for someone to post an example of a video that they felt was a good visual representation of Hsing Yi. It does not have to be your own video but one that you feel captures the essense of Hsing Yi.

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 03:37 AM

I never said it wasn't the "same mechanism" you dolt.. I said the example of the mechanism given by Lin in the original video is not as good/refined/skillful as the mechanism demonstrated by Pan in his clips.

And why is it that I am "defensive like a little child"? I make points. I clarify points and I ask for counterpoints. I don't metaphorically throw up my hands in despair and resort to calling other posters "childish". Look in the mirror.

Welcome to straw man territory, where you make up stuff the other person said to keep flapping your ignorant mouth. What a ****. I never said that you said it was a different mechanism...

You're defensive because you're you don't get it. If you were mature and simply making points, you'd have left long ago, after making them. You can disagree, but you'd rather argue the same thing over and over, even after 5 people tell you you're full of it. I called you childish because you are; you started with name calling from the start, never showed any evidence of skill on your own part (certainly not from what you wrote), and continue to post as though you have some great insight to share.

tcphillips

06-11-2007, 07:27 AM

Anone, It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube. So either you are a member of some rarified cult that takes their XinYi to an unheard of level (and keeps it secret) or you are that troll we all had in High School BioChemistry who philosophically could not grant an excellent grade. Maybe you could dig up some superior videos, post them and enlighten us thereby. Or are you too busy grading papers when you should be practicing?

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 11:24 AM

Funny man..

I have neither the time nor inclination to scour "You Tube" or any other web locale for the gratification of you and your cronies. Unlike you internet warriors, I have a full life. ;)

This is particularly amusing in light of your large number of posts on this thread. :rolleyes:

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. It is by no means meant to be a complete list and I apologize to any of my past or present mentors and constituents that I may forget to mention here....

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

Yeah, but did you learn anything from any of them. Anyone can sign up for a class from someone famous. It doesn't mean you learned anything from them.

Btw, still waiting for some real insights on the video. Simply saying "It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube", is not really saying much at all now is it? :)

Well, it says more than you have. Then again, that isn't much of a standard, is it? :D

suddenflower

06-11-2007, 11:34 AM

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

What did you mean by "direct contact"? Have you met these guys in person?

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 01:09 PM

Hey, I'm on vacation.. what can I say? :cool:
But if you check my profile history, you'll see that I haven't been on here in quite a long time. Nor, do I post often considering the amount of time I have been a member.

But you have all the time in the world to post nonsense now, eh?

The issue is not whether or not I learned anything from them or any other (although I know you and your pals are trying to make it so). The issue is whether or not the person in the original video has good body connection.

I see structure in the original video, as well as the others of Master Pan. Just because you say you don't doesn't mean it isn't there. Further more, I see more than just structure.

Of course now you have brought in a subpoint as it were... are you trying to say the that the gentlemen I named above, meaning:

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

Do not have good body mechanics as you see it?

I didn't say that at all. It's called a straw man, it's one thing you ARE good at. :p The question is whether YOU have any skill, given how high and mighty you're talking. Of course others may have skill, but did you actually learn from them (not just a seminar), and did you actually pick anything up.

No, it's not... and that is exactly what I said. Now, please let's hear exactly why you, or any of you, in detail mind you, think that the Lin video is representative of good body mechanics. Because so far, none of you has said anything intelligent, save one... and he has been airing similar opinions to my own.

You only consider him intelligent because he agrees with you. As I said, I don't see the problem, and you haven't detailed anything, just that you didn't like it, that you don't see connection. Well, plenty of us do. Ever consider the problem might be on your end?

swimgrad

06-11-2007, 01:15 PM

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

Actually, most of the names you mentioned are closely related to Lin's lineage. Zhang Jun Feng is the founder of YiZung School in Taipei. Hung Yi Hsiang is one of his top students. The lineages of the following names you mentioned can all be traced back to YiZung: Luo De Xiu, Su Dong Chen, Mike Patterson, Tim Cartmell. Pan is the top student of Zhang Jun Feng's wife and is currently the official leader of YiZung School although his own school is named YiZungYue, with Yue being his first name. And finally, Lin is one of Pan's top students.

Of course, I totally agree with you that all of them are excellent martial artists.

Walter Joyce

06-11-2007, 01:41 PM

grncastle

06-11-2007, 01:45 PM

Actually, most of the names you mentioned are closely related to Lin's lineage. Zhang Jun Feng is the founder of YiZung School in Taipei. Hung Yi Hsiang is one of his top students. The lineages of the following names you mentioned can all be traced back to YiZung: Luo De Xiu, Su Dong Chen, Mike Patterson, Tim Cartmell. Pan is the top student of Zhang Jun Feng's wife and is currently the official leader of YiZung School although his own school is named YiZungYue, with Yue being his first name. And finally, Lin is one of Pan's top students.

Hey Hey Hey!!! Anone, don't tell me that you are also a member of this big family!

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 02:27 PM

Did any of you think there may not be a problem here at all?

At first I thought that the person who asked Anone to post something backing up his opinion was on to something, but that side of the argument went downhill from there, with any number of personal attacks.

I have watched this thread from the beginning, and I have to say that Anone and cj have offered the more reasoned posts.

The other replies were obviously colored by emotion (mainly anger it seemed, or indignation) and have yet to explain why they think the clip and what was demonstrated on it was done properly. Of course they keep insisting it is proper.

Ever heard of agreeing to disagree?

Who really cares what others think if you are convinced you are studying with a good teacher? You don't have to convince the world of his greatness, if it is there it will shine through.

Whats wrong with letting a criticism stand without attacking the person who presented it? As I said above, even when attacked personally I think Anone responded clearly and rationally.

Walter,

It's probably a natural result of someone starting out with very insulting posts. When others responded in a reasonable way, he continued on with more of the same, even acting like a little kid, saying "you first" in several responses to polite posts. So... I think everyone else decided to use him as a virtual punching bag. It's not mature, but then that wasn't working, so why not have a little fun with him. I mean when you call someone else's stuff ****, then don't back up your own credentials, you're sorta asking for it, aren't you?

I kind of see him now as just wanting the last word. Someone else made reference to him being insulting to another instructor elsewhere, and while I have no idea if that's true, it wouldn't surprise me. Seems to fit the pattern.

I for one have felt the power from the instructor in the video first hand, and it's in a different category than others I've touched hands with, so I need no further convincing. But from looking at the video, I can see power traveling from the root to the hands, and I see a sound structure. Of course, there's different kinds of power used in different places. You can have a rigid structure, where the balls of the feet are connecting to the hands for directly issueing power, but you could also fire from the root and let the arms whip, for a different effect. Maybe some people are used to different mechanisms, or have different ideas of what the universe of good structure. But you can test those things in person, so if you know through direct experience, then you know.

Chris

suddenflower

06-11-2007, 03:46 PM

And btw, "suddenflower", in response to your question; "What did you mean by "direct contact"? Have you met these guys in person?"... The answer would be yes, met, trained with and alongside, as well as numerous others. As I said, I have been involved extensively since before most of you whelps were wet behind the ears.

Who did you train with? Zhang Jun Feng? Hung Yi Hsiang? Luo De Xiu? Or else? The above are three different generations.

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 03:55 PM

Anone,

I find your contradictions interesting. First you won't talk about your lineage, then all of a sudden, you have this amazing lineage.

Then you have no time to post a video of yourself, or even search on YouTube, but you obviously have no time constraints for posting on this thread.

Care to explain the contradictions?

chrisfreel

06-11-2007, 09:08 PM

The form movement is from the shoulders and has no link to the core.

Some of the applications are good, some bad and some outright ridiculous.

For your benefit, here's your first post. Is it not insulting? You didn't say "I don't see how the structure works", or "I don't understand how you generate power this way...". That would have been reasonable, and could provoke a discussion.

Sorry, I'm not sure I believe you studied with 3 generations of masters first hand. Hey, maybe I'm a Bagua expert, I studied under Dong Hai Chuan! My great art has kept me alive for 200 years!

If you were actually as skilled as you purport, you'd probably have something better to do with your time than trolling and saying the same thing over and over.

Nevertheless, I can say you don't see what you think should be there, others do. Would that be fair enough? Would you leave it at that? Or would you rather argue on indefinitely?

grncastle

06-11-2007, 10:03 PM

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. It is by no means meant to be a complete list and I apologize to any of my past or present mentors and constituents that I may forget to mention here....

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

In the thread "Who's Who in Shen Lung Xingyi" of this Forum, you posted the following:

"I was a student of Hsu Hong Chi (Xu Hong Ji) in the 60's and 70's."

However, in the thread "Internal Arts in San Diego", Master Mike Patternson posted the following:

"To Anone,

Whoever you are, if you are connected to me or Master Xu Hong Ji (Hsu Hong Chi) in any way, you are causing all of us a loss of face by your actions. ... And it is my humble opinion that you should let go of your feelings of discontent and move on with your life as well."

You have posted a lot in this thread insisting that Lin's skill level does not deserve to be called a master. But, nowadays, how many "masters" can you find in U.S. whose skills are much inferior to Lin's? It seems to me that, in U.S., the line between "Master" and "Sifu" or "Teacher" is blurred and nobody really cares that much about it. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion but you don't have to keep saying it again and again. We have already got your point and you may "move on with your life."

Walter Joyce

06-12-2007, 08:46 AM

Walter,

It's probably a natural result of someone starting out with very insulting posts. When others responded in a reasonable way, he continued on with more of the same, even acting like a little kid, saying "you first" in several responses to polite posts. So... I think everyone else decided to use him as a virtual punching bag. It's not mature, but then that wasn't working, so why not have a little fun with him. I mean when you call someone else's stuff ****, then don't back up your own credentials, you're sorta asking for it, aren't you?

I kind of see him now as just wanting the last word. Someone else made reference to him being insulting to another instructor elsewhere, and while I have no idea if that's true, it wouldn't surprise me. Seems to fit the pattern.

I for one have felt the power from the instructor in the video first hand, and it's in a different category than others I've touched hands with, so I need no further convincing. But from looking at the video, I can see power traveling from the root to the hands, and I see a sound structure. Of course, there's different kinds of power used in different places. You can have a rigid structure, where the balls of the feet are connecting to the hands for directly issueing power, but you could also fire from the root and let the arms whip, for a different effect. Maybe some people are used to different mechanisms, or have different ideas of what the universe of good structure. But you can test those things in person, so if you know through direct experience, then you know.

Chris

Chris,

Thank you for the response. I hesitated to post at all, and the points you make lead me to conclude that I don't know enough about the parties involved to continue, especially after reading what Mike Patterson posted.

Thanks again for the additional information,

Walter

Walter Joyce

06-12-2007, 10:38 AM

Anone,

Can you address the comments made by Mike Patterson?

Regards,

WTJ

grncastle

06-12-2007, 11:18 AM

anonymity spewing B.S. and not have anyone truly knowledgeable looking over your shoulders. Well, I got news for ya... we do,

The problem is that we just don't believe that you are qualified to be in the group of "truly knowledgeable" with what you have posted so far. Just show us a video and it will be crystally clear. Don't you have even one video to share with us after three decades of training? People with skill as you've claimed deserve to leave some trace in the history of martial arts.

5) Perhaps in your shallow minds the line between master and sifu is blurred, but it is still very sharp in the minds of those who really know. And that line should remain sharp. A sifu is a teacher/father... anyone can be a sifu. You need only know more than your "tudi" (student) to be a sifu. A master is rare and special. Many decades of hard work and dedicated study, much sacrifice... something I will warrant none of you have a clue about.

Your definitions here are correct. However, have you ever noticed that most of the martial arts schools owner/instructors in U.S. call themselves "Master ..."? My point here is that this seems to be a common practice nowadays. If this is the source of your anger or disagreement, you just have to live with it.

Walter Joyce

06-12-2007, 01:53 PM

The part attribute to him above was taken out of context. So, what comments specifically are you asking me to address? And, btw, thank you for the civil tone.. very refreshing. :)

Anone,

Can you put the quote in context?

Regards,
WTJ

grncastle

06-12-2007, 01:55 PM

I am a known figure. I do not wish to drag my associates into this fray by gratifying a bunch of beginners with a video of myself. I would be recognized.. maybe not by you as your pond is so small, but by others of true repute and skill.

Why would a video showing you, just you, doing a form drag your associates into this "fray"? Just doesn't make any sense. So far, the "associates" you have mentioned are mostly in the same martial arts family of Master Lin and no one has ever raised any question about their skills.

suddenflower

06-12-2007, 02:05 PM

Again with this.. is that the only refuge you have?! My dear boy... I have left a trace and am still doing so... You cannot goad me into revealing who I am. And again, I say; "you first". :)

You simply don't get it do you? I am a known figure. I do not wish to drag my associates into this fray by gratifying a bunch of beginners with a video of myself. I would be recognized.. maybe not by you as your pond is so small, but by others of true repute and skill. ;)

Would you please make a video with your face covered to hide your ID? We are not interested in how you look but are curious in seeing your demo after talking with you for such a long time. I know you have plenty of time and we certainly can wait.

Walter Joyce

06-12-2007, 03:50 PM

Anone,

It does. Thank you for responding so thoroughly.

I think you nailed the reason why you are getting such harsh treatment, sifu worship. Loyalty is nice, but it should be tempered with a realistic viewpoint.

Enjoy the rest of your vacation,

WTJ

chrisfreel

06-12-2007, 07:25 PM

Now as for the remarks not coming from "Walter Joyce".. I thought we had already discussed that ad nauseum? Get off the video thing boys.... ain't gonna happen and I have made my reasons as clear as I am willing. Any additional information I'm sure can and will be used against me. And you guys talk about ME not being able to let it rest.. sheesh! You are like a broken record saying; "show us a video" over and over and over again. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'm sure you're a legend in your own mind. But you started out as critical of something and talk quite condescendingly. Excuse me and others for actually asking you to provide some evidence of having any skill, considering your big claim to fame is your indeterminate relationship to several known masters. Are you great, or do you not have any skill at all? I guess we'll never know, but I suspect that any of the people you claim lineage from would not be responding as you do.