pre wong fei hung

[chivalrous hall]

Does anyone have any info on pre wong fei hung, hung kuen that traces its line back to hung hei goon. or what some would call village style hung gar.
interested to compare stances and bridgework, also the name of sets.

Cheers,
giuseppe

[TenTigers]

I train with an old man from Guangzhao, (I think the only word he knows in English is,'AGAIN!")who does a non-WFH Hung Kuen,coming from Luk Ah-Choy. The forms are, dan-gung fook fu kuen, seurng gung fook fu kuen,fu-hok seurng ying kuen, and tiet sien kuen. (so much for the stories of who created what)The stances are not nearly as wide and deep, as that was a recent change-after Lam Sai-Wing, and is seen more in HK. It is characterized by shorter bridging, and striking, and is extremely attack oriented. It is not played, one breath, one strike, but is an aggressive continuous barrage. Right now, emphasis is on lien gung-trainng of the claw,iron palm, and short power generation.
I know another man, who's Hung Kuen is WFH line, but not LSW,MGL or TF, and is played similar-only much more Tiger-oriented. My guess is, if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

[banditshaw]

I train with an old man from Guangzhao, (I think the only word he knows in English is,'AGAIN!")who does a non-WFH Hung Kuen,coming from Luk Ah-Choy. The forms are, dan-gung fook fu kuen, seurng gung fook fu kuen,fu-hok seurng ying kuen, and tiet sien kuen. (so much for the stories of who created what)The stances are not nearly as wide and deep, as that was a recent change-after Lam Sai-Wing, and is seen more in HK. It is characterized by shorter bridging, and striking, and is extremely attack oriented. It is not played, one breath, one strike, but is an aggressive continuous barrage. Right now, emphasis is on lien gung-trainng of the claw,iron palm, and short power generation.
I know another man, who's Hung Kuen is WFH line, but not LSW,MGL or TF, and is played similar-only much more Tiger-oriented. My guess is, if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

That's interesting stuff Ten. It's known that all WFH Hung Kuen comes from Luk Ah Choi and that WFH modified most of the Hung Curriculum in the modern era as well as Lam Sai Wing later on.
The Fu Hok version you speak of is of major interest because I thought it was widely known as a WFH creation.

[TenTigers]

Bandit-I know what you mean about Fu-Hok. I have heard that WFH created it. I also have heard that Hung Hei-Guen created it! (huh?) What sounds most logical, and I forgot where I heard this from, so I apologize for not giving credit-is that WFH re-formatted the forms. From what I have seen from non-WFH sets is that they are not symetrical, much the way CLF sets aren't symetrical. WFH sets are for the most part, right side, left side, as are Wing Chun. Look for a connection there as well-especially Village Hung Kuen and non HK Wing Chun, and Fukien White Crane systems. Eric Ling is definately the go to man for this.

[banditshaw]

Ten, Sounds about right. It would seem that all the major players made innovations at one time or another. Even Two Schools with the same lineage looks different on many occasions.

It is what it is right?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Gentleman,

Please continue, I haven't started class and it looks like I won't be able to until the 16th. I'm learning at least some history so allow me to continue to be "The Fly on the Wall"

:)

[Mulong]

Pre-Huang, Feihong’s hongquan, is truly a sticky topic; maybe we shouldn't turn over this stone tenth-thousand time. :rolleyes:

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Since LSW taught as a part of his military duties, I don't believe it is a stretch of the imagination to see him change the forms to make them better for physical fitness and combat. Lower stances meant strong legs back in the old days. And teaching troups to be able to fight from both left and right side dominant positions, as found in LSW's books, also makes sense.

But I think the original forms and methods are probably forever lost, or at least cannot be separated from the more modern additions. :(

Ten Tigers,
How close is the fu hok seurng ying kuen your teacher does to the versions taught today? Can you give some examples?
Thanks in advance!

Richard A. Tolson

[Laukarbo]

if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

so are you saying that the Hung Kuen of Lam,Chiu,Lau Family etc. is wu-shu-ized?
They are all in HK....
Well,one thing I also heard is that the stances never been that low.This could have indeed been taken from wushu...
And if one believes in the old stories it was Hung Hei Goon that took white crane in the system...
And wong fei hung only created a systematic form out of it...

[TenTigers]

"so are you saying that the Hung Kuen of Lam,Chiu,Lau Family etc. is wu-shu-ized?
They are all in HK...."

DOH!

no, I am not saying their Hung Kuen is wushuized, These are two separate thoughts-don't misunderstand me-probably due to my poor writing skillz. I meant that there are wushuized versions, as you can see on youtube,(one thought) and Later generations after LSW had deeper stances, as can be seen from the photose of LSW. (a second thought)
I believe that the emphasis on deeper stances came about due to the popularity of Hung-Ga-because of the later generations. To teach Gung-Fu properly, requires one on one instruction. Teaching a large class requires a method to ensure quality. "From the Large, comes the small" Teach large gross motor movements which will become smaller, tighter in fighting. "Handicap" the athelete and he will develop strength. As we all know, beginners will raise out of their stances. Teach a narrower horse, they will seek the easier path. Teach a deeper horse, they will end up with a good horse. Hung-Ga forms are both Gung-Faht and Kuen-Faht.

[Laukarbo]

I didnt mean stir up anything..this was a serious question without any bad intentions..:D
Im also really interested in pre-WFH and everything about Hung..its just hard sometimes to tell whats true or not,or getting some good infos...looking at the old Lam Sai Wing pics his stances are never that low..actually I think the low horse is just a trainings tool ..well..actually you said it all...:D

Ten,what are your thoughts on the history of Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen?
Somesay the first half was added later..
By whom?
The one finger to heaven..was added later?
I heard before it was just a tiger claw doing the dynamic tension bits?
Actually I learned a form from my Sifu..this form is called Wun ying Fook Fu Kuen..the dynamic tension is performed with tiger claws,plus to support ur wing chun theory..the beginning part looks a bit like wing chun,theres a3 times dynamic tension to the sides (as in gung gee)but instead the one finger to heaven its a biu gee shape.......this form comes from malaysia (ho kam wai lineage)..could this be a pre-wfh form?
My sifu says its a old hung form..have to ask him later again..
This was the first form I learned so its many,many moons ago....:D

so just asked(thanks toym messenger):its indeed a pre-wfh form

[TenTigers]

I had heard that many of the kiu-sao were Tiger Claws originally as well. If you see the opening of Fu Jow P'ai's forms, they use the Tiger Claw to the sides, and then pull back inwards. I was told by one Sifu, that this is the original way, and he did it in his Tiet Sien Kuen. In some Tang Fong versions, they use the crane's wing rather than single finger, in many movements.(not the tension ones to the front or sides, but when "setting a bridge.")
This is not to say that it is ONLY symbolic-indeed, there are many applications to the single finger position, even in other arts. I came back from a seminar on Hakko-Ryu and Daito Ryu, and they also use this hand as well. Chris Sayoc uses this as one of his hand positions in gripping the knife.

[Asmo]

They TT,

Some day you need to release a book (or PDF?) with your findings. Really really interesting, and you seem to find the right people all the time :)

Is that version of Fu Hok similar to Wong Kiew Kit's?

Theres a breakdown here: http://www.wongkk.com/shaolin/kungfu-sets/tiger-crane-set.html

I'm sure you know these articles already, but for those who haven't read them yet, WKK wrote a few articles about the set: http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/shaolin/tiger-crane01.html

[chivalrous hall]

Hey everyone thanks for all your input!

ok where to begin...sifus come from the singapore Ling Nam Assoc. through Soong Siu Por who was a classmate of Lau Chum. now we have the four pillars. and we also have dan gong fuk fu, seurn gong fuk fu, mg ying fuk fu, mang fu chu lam(directions of this set is =2 fu hok) now none of these sets have a different flavour or outer shape than the four pillars. most Lam Sai wing lines dont have any of these sets just mentioned, so its possible Soong Siu Por found these elswhere. not that the patterns r the b all 2 end all. what i was searching for was pre Wong stuff with a higher stance and lots of yeung mah emphasis with more bracing with opening and closing like Tid Sin. guys excuse me keyboard skills their not very good.

Cheers,

[TenTigers]

Rising Crane also does a Hung Kuen that is not LSW,not sure if it is pre-WFH, you would need to ask him, but he demonstrated it to me, and it wasn't as deep, and what I found most interesting was that it didn't use the chamber at the hip, but had the hands more forward...the way you would fight.
Also check out Ha Say Fu Hung Kuen-very close to what you are describing.

[AJM]

Some of the village Ha Say Fu also has more elongated postures similar to longfist as small squares are not needed as much in the country.

[PM]

sei ping daai jan kyun of Canton "Laan Tau" Ho Hung Kyun ("Laan Tau" Ho was a student of Hung Heigun)

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=376

[kfman5F]

I practice the Five Family Style, brought to this country in the 1920's by Ark Y. Wong. The Tiger Crane I learned is very similar yet different than the WFH versions that are generally seen. The stances are somewhat higher and the sequences are different. When my teacher, Gary Steuer, met with (please excuse my spelling) Jou Ji Ling (Chi Chi Ling?), the famous Hung Gar teacher and actor in Hong Kong years ago, he said that he didn't think anyone knew that version in the States. I have never seen the same form done the same way posted on the internet.

[seisei]

His name on his Business card is spelled Chui Chi Ling and is based in the East Bay of San Francisco a very interesting gentleman.

[kfman5F]

Thank you for the correction.

[Laukarbo]

His name on his Business card is spelled Chui Chi Ling and is based in the East Bay of San Francisco a very interesting gentleman.

actually its Chiu Chi Ling:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had heard that many of the kiu-sao were Tiger Claws originally as well. If you see the opening of Fu Jow P'ai's forms, they use the Tiger Claw to the sides, and then pull back inwards. I was told by one Sifu, that this is the original way, and he did it in his Tiet Sien Kuen. In some Tang Fong versions, they use the crane's wing rather than single finger, in many movements.(not the tension ones to the front or sides, but when "setting a bridge.")
This is not to say that it is ONLY symbolic-indeed, there are many applications to the single finger position, even in other arts. I came back from a seminar on Hakko-Ryu and Daito Ryu, and they also use this hand as well. Chris Sayoc uses this as one of his hand positions in gripping the knife.

Funny you should mention that, I had always seen Kiu-sao done the way it is done typically and the deep rooted stances that were "trademark" of Hung Ga, but a wile back I had a chance to be part of some "inner" training and noticed that the stances were higher and that the Kiu-sao was there sometimes and not other times, when I asked the teacher the differences he said that, in regards to stances, this was an advanced class and in regards to Kiu-sao that the "revolution was over".
:D

[PM]

...in regards to Kiu-sao that the "revolution was over".
:D

ha ha ha, that's good :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

ha ha ha, that's good :D

Yeah, I didn't get it at first and when he saw my "deer in the headlights" look explained and I though that was quite interesting.
But this thread made me wonder if indeed some of his Hung Kuen was of not of the WFH lineage.
Not that I give lineage much weight.

[PM]

saam jin tit sin kyun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTfFjhv6Ys

[Paul T England]

I have seen lots of village hung gar in China. I guess that would be pre WFH. Did a cool horse bench form in Fatsan a few years back.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am being to think that, when my old HK sifu, when asked about the differences in his TSK and others I had seen, said "100 people, 100 TSK", that he was also referring to Hung Kuen in general.
While the core and principles tend to remain the same, it seems the techniques and forms can vary from teacher to teacher and "lineage" to "lineage".
Not a bad thing mind you, just something for all of us to keep in mind so that the "real hung kuen/gar" mentality doesn't set in.

[chusauli]

After many discussion with my Si Hing, Dixon Fung, we realize that there may be some truth to Lam Sai Wing altering and codifying the sets of WFH as they are practiced today.

Old Hung Gar is Dan Gung Fuk Fu (2nd half of Gung Ji Fuk Fu), Cern Gung Fuk Fu (original first half of Gung Ji Fuk Fu, which is now altered), Fu Hoc Cern Ying And Tiet Sien Kuen, and probably Ng Ying Kuen. It is not difficult to see how Fu Hoc Cern Ying may have been derived from Ng Ying (or Ng Ying Ng Hang Kuen, aka Sup Ying Kuen). Of course, there are many minor forms practiced because the other sets are long.

In the end it doesn't matter. All Gung Fu is created by people. If you train it hard, you can master it and refine it. If you are unorthodox, you can refine yourself and become orthodox. And if you are orthodox, you have to break tradition to fit in the situation, become unorthodox.

WFH is legendary because of pulp fiction, novels, movies, soap operas, and so on. We weren't there and we have multiple streams derived from him today.

[lkfmdc]

I've done "Village style" Hung Kyuhn with three different teachers (including CTS) and can easily (to me anyway) see how the WFH line was an attempt to capture the essence of the vast tradition and codify it

I've also done a Dang Fong lineage slightly different than Sifu Yee Chi Wai's , one in which strangely our sets were Gung Jih Fuk Fu, Fu Hok Seung Yihn, SUP YING KYUHN, and Tit Sin


After many discussion with my Si Hing, Dixon Fung, we realize that there may be some truth to Lam Sai Wing altering and codifying the sets of WFH as they are practiced today.

Old Hung Gar is Dan Gung Fuk Fu (2nd half of Gung Ji Fuk Fu), Cern Gung Fuk Fu (original first half of Gung Ji Fuk Fu, which is now altered), Fu Hoc Cern Ying And Tiet Sien Kuen, and probably Ng Ying Kuen. It is not difficult to see how Fu Hoc Cern Ying may have been derived from Ng Ying (or Ng Ying Ng Hang Kuen, aka Sup Ying Kuen). Of course, there are many minor forms practiced because the other sets are long.

In the end it doesn't matter. All Gung Fu is created by people. If you train it hard, you can master it and refine it. If you are unorthodox, you can refine yourself and become orthodox. And if you are orthodox, you have to break tradition to fit in the situation, become unorthodox.

WFH is legendary because of pulp fiction, novels, movies, soap operas, and so on. We weren't there and we have multiple streams derived from him today.

[Violent Designs]

in the end it doesn't matter. All gung fu is created by people. If you train it hard, you can master it and refine it. If you are unorthodox, you can refine yourself and become orthodox. And if you are orthodox, you have to break tradition to fit in the situation, become unorthodox.



qftmft .

[TenTigers]

Chusauli- many, many moons ago, you taught a "Small Five Animal" set at Ling Nam Siu Lum. The dragon section was short, and the snake section was very WC like-simultaneous front kick/biu-sao, followed by successive biu-jee 3x. The leopard section was slightly different as well. It was a short, but sweet, (and had great techniques) Ng Ying Kuen, which to this day, I still practice. It is different from LSW, different from the Tang Fong versions I have seen, and different from Wan Ji Ming's (which is also TF, through Chan Tai-Hing)
Could you tell me the origin of this set?

[peace&love]

It was also my understanding that Lam Tsai Wing made a number of adjustments to the sets learned from Wong Fei Hung. I also have heard that Wong's other students codified the forms to meet their own needs as well. I have heard that Lam Jo's students have different techniques in sets under the same common name. For example, I have seen multiple variances in Lau Gar Kuen from various You Tube videos, Buck Sam Kong, and quite a few of his students as well. Has anyone else noticed this with this particular forms and others? If this is the case, it will probably be quite difficult to know the exact way the form was done during Lam Tsai Wing's day. Yet, I have also seen the photos mentioned earlier and his horse stance is not near as low as it is emphasized today. I have heard two viewpoints on this. One that it is a leg strength training tool or that it contains "hidden" combat applications. The latter sounds a bit silly to me in regards to stance work.

[Tid Sin]

...I've done "Village style" Hung Kyuhn with three different teachers (including CTS)...

I never knew that CTS did Hung Kuen as well. Man, he did it all! lol

Do you remember what his curriculum included? And were there any similarities at all to what we see nowadays? Thanks in advance :)

[David Jamieson]

actually its Chiu Chi Ling:D

actually, it's Chiu chi-ling :D

[Laukarbo]

actually, it's Chiu chi-ling :D

actually ,not really.....:D

really it is 趙志淩 :D:D

[TenTigers]

I was waiting for someone to do that.
Thanks, LauKarBo

[David Jamieson]

actually ,not really.....:D

really it is 趙志淩 :D:D

bout time someone dropped some ideograms on that. lol

so many iterations of a name it's amazing you can even find these guys.

:p

[jmd161]

I have heard two viewpoints on this. One that it is a leg strength training tool or that it contains "hidden" combat applications. The latter sounds a bit silly to me in regards to stance work.


I can't speak for Hung Gar as I don't train it, but in Hak Fu Mun the latter is stressed a lot in our training. We are taught to fight with our stances using our legs for locks, trips, and take downs... all while the hands are busy attacking. It is of the opinion that the person you're fighting will not see these leg tactics, do to their trying to combat the hands.



jeff:)

[CFT]

bout time someone dropped some ideograms on that. lol

so many iterations of a name it's amazing you can even find these guys.

:pNever mind the romanization issues. in the olden days people used to have multiple names, one for each stage of their life: birth name, school name, married name and even "pen names".

e.g. Sun Yat-Sen is also known as Sun Zhong-san or Sun Man.

The many names of Sun Yat-sen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Sun_Yat-sen)

[SteveLau]

TenTigers,

You are blessed. It is rare these days for people to learn the old Hung Kuen (pre Wong Fei Hung). That means the system you are training is very close to Wong Fei Hung's kung fu. I read two Chinese books on the biography and kung fu of Master Wong Fei Fung in January this year. It was meant to be leisure reading to begin with. But it later became serious research because of great research value in these two books. They were published in 2005 and 2007. They are very good books in my own opinion. TenTigers, what you said in your first post correlated with the information in these books. You also have answered a question in my mind for some times - did the Tiger and Crane Double Style handset already exist before Wong Fei Hung? I am certain now the answer is affirmative. According to the year when Wong Fei Hung and Lai Sai Wing passed away plus other evidence, I believe LSW changed the Tiger and Crane Double Style handset, and thus had his branch's version while his sifu WFH was still well alive.

Yes. The old Hung Kuen has narrower and higher stances, shorter range techniques than modern Hung Kuen. And also harder as in hard and soft techniques. Just like original karate is harder than modern karate.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong