The Killer Instinct

[djcaldwell]

Comments made on the SD thread got me thinking back on a discussion that took place on my forum last year and I wonder what some of your thougts are on this:

The original question was:


It is very important to have the right mind set if you have to go into battle, few schools teach this concepts some call it killer instinct others call it mental reality training or something else. Do you think this is something that can be taught or are you born with this instinct? What kind of mental training do you folks use, or teach your students to mentally prepare themselves for combat?

To which my response was this:


Instinct by definition can not be taught. We all have the instinct to preserve ourselves if in that definition you want to refer to it as fighting instinct then yes we all are born with the instinct to survive...be it fighting or enduring something we didn't think we could that is part of our instinct.

Now if you are referring to the willingness and/or ability of one to fight then it is another matter. That CAN be taught and to anyone. By nature obviously we are not different than any other animal. Some of us through natural order are stronger and more agressive - others have one and not the other and then there are those we would refer to as meak. But physical attributes aside, the mental ability or willingness to fight can be a socially developed skill. A little guy growing up in the inner city versus a little guy in the burbs are going to have two entirely different views on fighting. One is going to be willing to jump in no matter what and the other is going to look more to shy away. (Before I offend any little suburbians there are always exceptions to the rules).

You can teach someone to be a fighter - you can give them tools and the know how to use them but unfortunately I don't know if you can ever give someone the desire or willingness to use them. For example, my cousins child has been taking Karate for like 5 years now. Yet he gets picked on and bullied around and won't defend himself. When you ask him why - he always has another excuse as to why he didn't want to do it - but at the same time he'll just come home and cry about it. HOW DO YOU MAKE THIS KID BE WILLING TO FIGHT.

Personally, I only know one thing that made me learn to fight when I was a kid. The fear of my Uncle beating the crap out of me if I didn't. I spent alot of time at my Aunt & Uncles house w/ my cousins and we played on the block and inveitably we got into altercations with other kids on the block. Well, if we came home in tears about a bully up the street - he would kneel down and tell us that if we didn't go back up there and fight that kid then he was going to beat us.

He actually walked us up to the block and stood there while we fought. We would end up winning and I don't know if it is because we were terrified of what would happen if we lost but it didn't matter.

So again, instinct can't be taught it is inherent in us all. Ability and how we deal with situations can be taught. So then it can be unlearned and you can basically turn anyone into a fighter. How good they are well....

What do you guys think?

[CLFNole]

I think "killer instinct" can be taught and is taught in the military; however it seems that you need to break many people down mentally first over time and then build them back up to create a so-called fighting machine if you will. This might be difficult if not nearly impossible to do within the confines of a martial arts school so a person would either have it or not have it.

[bodhitree]

Great Topic.


Sometimes I feel a big problem of mine is that I'm too nice/not aggressive enough. I'm not saying I should be on the mat cranking armbars as fast and hard as I can, but sometimes I am too concerned with my opponent. I see in some others almost complete disregard for their opponent when on the mat (in training) which has it's benefits. I want to find that right balance.

[Golden Arms]

This can be taught, but like many other things..the people that have it naturally will have an advantage if taught the same material. Its something that needs to be done military style generally. Trials by fire can be good for this because they 1) point out the need to have a different response, even to the ego/mind, 2)Give you something to shoot for as you are rebuilding.

The problem with going overboard on this stuff is health and PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) that come along with too much of that stuff, so its a balance you have to find for yourself long term. As my teacher is fond of pointing out, most pro's at any sport, including fighting, do not just train that way all the time, they ramp up to it, peak, and then rest their body and mind, away from it for a while. Trying to keep it all the time is a great way to totally mess yourself up.

[lkfmdc]

Maybe you don't realize that while the military does train it's personel in a form of "killer instinct" there are quite a few studies on how doing this is exactly the reason many veterans have trouble reassimilating into society, ie once a sociopath, always a sociopath

Also on point, in the military and intelligence communities, they prefer for high level "work" people who are already sociopaths, many of the tests they administer are to determine who is the crazy nut they can pluck out of the ordinary ranks for "wet work"

But to get to the point, do you WANT to try and make your everyday students sociopaths? CTS was a great martial artist, a pizz poor human being... I'm not really interesting in reproducing more CTS in the world

[PangQuan]

in respects to the "killer instinct"

IMO this cannot be taught. luckily enough, we as humans naturally posess this. Though my opinion is that it cannot be taught, I do however believe that this can be nurtured, grown and developed upon that which is present in the psyche of every animal on this green Earth.

You will find very few people who have a strong killer instinct that were NOT in some way influenced by outside sources to help develop this attitude and mindset.

This should also not be confused with violence. There are many violent people that do not respond well in a confrontational situation.

This can also be taken to the extreme. Put a person in the right situation, and they can literally become animals. Of course this would generally require much influence during developmental stages of a person to reach a state like this, though with enough of the right atmosphere, (war of course being a prime example) men can often find themselves reaching a state of mental comfort in battle that would not normally be seen without a strong driving force to require such a state for survival.

More commonly seen in old melee style war. Men-at-arms dealing directly in front line warfare and survive several battles/wars are a prime example of this.

[Samurai Jack]

It sounds to me like you were being abused djcaldwell. Now before you get all upset, let me say, I was also mistreated by a so-called role model as a young person. My step-father was a judoka who enjoyed trying to find reasons to smack me arouind. He was a real jerk, and it later bit him when he eventually got in trouble with the law over it. Suffering at the hands of an angry man who outweighed me by about 150 lbs. taught me a lot of important lessons about pride, how to take a punch, how to minimize damage when you know you are losing etc. He was quite the chucklehead, telling me to fight as your uncle did, then beating me if I did or didn't. It was lose / lose. Such experiences either make you a person of character, or they turn you into a monster. I like to think I made lemons out of lemonade there, but in short I concur with your view in that I am convinced that this early experience contributed a great deal to my development of the "killer instinct."

It's funny because I often get rebuked for going too hard in class. I don't really feel like I'm going berserk or anything, but sometimes I just feel like going at it aggressivly. So afterwords I tone it down until I eventually get rebuked for being "afraid of hurting my opponent". Then I let loose until the next time I'm reprimanded. It's a strange cyclic thing. I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with training a killer instinct, but I've observed that in the martial arts there seems to be people of two different ilk; There are fighters who practice martial arts, and there are hobbyists. Now the hobbyists sometimes make the mistake of thinking that they can fight. I usually get rebuked round about the time I forget I'm training with a hobbyist.

I really wish there was some way to teach people a fighting mind, but I've noticed that hobbyists abound even in boxing, judo, and wrestling. If ever I learn of a practical way to address this, I'll offer it to my future students. In the meantime, I am thankful for my early childhood experiences. Even though they were painful and unpleasant, they taught me that getting hit wasn't the end of the world. Personally, I think that is the defining step that needs to be taken. People have got to get over thier fear of getting hurt first and formost. All the skill in the world won't hold up to a real confrontation if you are too afraid to use it.

[Samurai Jack]

in respects to the "killer instinct"
More commonly seen in old melee style war. Men-at-arms dealing directly in front line warfare and survive several battles/wars are a prime example of this.

Interesting point. I wonder what PTSD looked like in medieval times when you had dudes who were used to crushing heads with maces trying to return to civilian life at "ye olde village."

Too bad most of those guys were illiterate. I'm sure first hand accounts of those battles, not to mention hearing what kind of human beings they came back as, would be interesting.

[djcaldwell]

It's funny because I often get rebuked for going too hard in class. I don't really feel like I'm going berserk or anything, but sometimes I just feel like going at it aggressivly. So afterwords I tone it down until I eventually get rebuked for being "afraid of hurting my opponent". Then I let loose until the next time I'm reprimanded. It's a strange cyclic thing. I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with training a killer instinct, but I've observed that in the martial arts there seems to be people of two different ilk; There are fighters who practice martial arts, and there are hobbyists. Now the hobbyists sometimes make the mistake of thinking that they can fight. I usually get rebuked round about the time I forget I'm training with a hobbyist.

I really wish there was some way to teach people a fighting mind, but I've noticed that hobbyists abound even in boxing, judo, and wrestling. If ever I learn of a practical way to address this, I'll offer it to my future students. In the meantime, I am thankful for my early childhood experiences. Even though they were painful and unpleasant, they taught me that getting hit wasn't the end of the world. Personally, I think that is the defining step that needs to be taken. People have got to get over thier fear of getting hurt first and formost. All the skill in the world won't hold up to a real confrontation if you are too afraid to use it.

SJ you are not far off - in that especially by todays standards we would have been abused. But fortunately for me we did not get beat either way. If we went up and faced our fear that was all he wanted us to do. I don't agree with all of his methods but as yourself I think I turned out all the better for them. Coincidentaly, I have encountered the same issue with "holding back" out of fear of hurting my partner.

My Si Hing watched me spar for a while and we had many discussions about my "holding back" and not following through with the technique he saw me start and getting past it.

There are many things to overcome before one is able to truly control themeselves as a fighter. My SiHing and I have spoken about this at length on many occassions and to paraphrase - to be a good fighter you have to overcome "emotion" in this way you can then use "emotion" to make you a great fighter.

What is left out of training is helping the students to overcome themselves:

Fear is the main component to overcome:

PRIMARY FEAR is the first thing most people have to deal and overcome - the fear of their opponent and/or THE FEAR OF GETTING HIT. Not everyone has this. Personally, I wasn't one that ever had a problem getting hit and didn't and be it a positive or negative, still don't fear opponents. The only way to overcome that IMO is to jump in the fire - get hit and realize that it's not always a bad thing.

SECONDARY FEAR: The fear of hurting someone else. This is a battle I still deal with. The problem is that this makes you hold back - so in the midst of fighting you see you can do something - then it's in that split second "If I do that he may get really hurt...What about..." S M A C K You're hit. The fear of doing damage, leads to hesitation, hesitation leads to getting punched in the face!! Or, it leaves you executing a less effective move than you could have to end the fight. Either way this is one I personally find harder to overcome.

Finally, is the fear of consequence - What happens if I lose this fight? Who's here watching me fight? Who am I going to let down if I don't succeed?

All of these thoughts lead to reactions or lack there of and can cost you a battle - especially in the ring where you already know that you are not going to die so you open up a pandora's box of thoughts to run through your mind.

[PangQuan]

ya. ive read some books that touch on that. but of course these types of things are all accounts from the educated upper classes, which were often skewed im sure.

a lot of those guys didnt have much to go back to, many people would join the military / militia's after their village or town was massacred, pillaged, burned and raped.

many guys, if the war was over, would join bands of "bandits" or (iforget the name) but there is a word for it. basically bandits that have military training, operate in a military fashion, with good weaponry but behave like bandits.

of course things were also way different back then during wars, you could get rich off slaughter if you killed or captured the right people. when you get free stuff from killing people, and get away with it, im sure its hard to stop.

kinda like me and coffee...

like Ross was saying, once a sociopath, always....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Since we all have this built in as part of the "Fight or Flight" program, I think it's more a matter of awakening it, than teaching it....

But once the Genni is out of the bottle, it's hard to put back in.


I once knew a guy how legitimately killed in self defense. after he developed a "Thirst" for it, to the point where he had to stop MA because he was having trouble controlling his desires to maim his classmates.

A once gentile person developed some really bad tendencies that took years of counseling to overcome.

[SevenStar]

in respects to the "killer instinct"

IMO this cannot be taught. luckily enough, we as humans naturally posess this. Though my opinion is that it cannot be taught, I do however believe that this can be nurtured, grown and developed upon that which is present in the psyche of every animal on this green Earth.


I disagree. Not every human is a killer, nor has that instinct - it's called fight or flight, as some people will choose flight every time. We all have some sort of self preservation instinct, but it is not "kill" in all cases.


You will find very few people who have a strong killer instinct that were NOT in some way influenced by outside sources to help develop this attitude and mindset.

this I can agree with. case in point, the avg person from the hood and the avg person from the burbs.

[PangQuan]

good points.

it just seems to me that people are imbued with the desire to survive. while as you state, most people will flee, i believe that depends on the situation and what they are dealing with. in some cases i think everyone will kill. it may not be a person, maybe just a spider....it just means thier killer instinct is like most peoples....severly repressed due to societies views on how people should be raised and the removal for the need of a killer mindset for survival.

now if we took every person every born and raised them in the same manner, being closely delt with aggression, fighting, killing and survival, would they all turn out with a killer instinct?

im not sure. if so, would this instinct be due to a nurturing of this aspect, or would it have been imbued through the invironment (taught)?

as i said tho this is all my opinion, which is sometimes unstable when dealing with things like this.

intelligent input alters opinion i suppose.

i mean i totally see that some people are just not killers, but is it just that we cannot see that aspect in them because is so minimal? or do they truly not posses one ounce of killing instinct?

there was a story on the news a while back round here where this guy broke into an older womans home (in her 50's) he hit her on the d@mn head with a hammer. instead of going down for the count, she strangled that grown man to death.

that is the aspect im touching on that i think people generally posess. but now you see i tag that "generally" onto my statement, becuase you have me second guessing my opinions! :mad::p

[golden arhat]

when a soldier is in training

everything is fine

and then we he goes to war (and many a soldier will atest to this)
they're pants turn from white to brown

only after one has had direct experience (in war or in street fighting, u name it)
can he begin to get good and develop what it takes to win

[PangQuan]

when a soldier is in training

everything is fine

and then we he goes to war (and many a soldier will atest to this)
they're pants turn from white to brown

only after one has had direct experience (in war or in street fighting, u name it)
can he begin to get good and develop what it takes to win

yet, do you imply that the experience is building and or developing upon that which is inherent in man, or would you assume the experience is what gives man the "killer instinct"

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

only after one has had direct experience (in war or in street fighting, u name it)
can he begin to get good and develop what it takes to win

Reply]
The training gives you superior tools, BUT only experience in the shop actually working with those tools every day gives you the skills of a master craftsman.

Fighting is the same thing.

[golden arhat]

yet, do you imply that the experience is building and or developing upon that which is inherent in man, or would you assume the experience is what gives man the "killer instinct"

no it what gives him the ability to make proper use of it

[rogue]

A must read On Killing (http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-0909944-7531268?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181334850&sr=8-2).


From Library Journal
Grossman (psychology, West Point) presents three important hypotheses: 1) That humans possess the reluctance to kill their own kind; 2) that this reluctance can be systematically broken down by use of standard conditioning techniques; and 3) that the reaction of "normal" (e.g., non-psychopathic) soliders to having killed in close combat can be best understood as a series of "stages" similar to the ubiquitous Kubler-Ross stages of reaction to life-threatening disease. While some of the evidence to support his theories have been previously presented by military historians (most notably, John Keegan), this systematic examination of the individual soldier's behavior, like all good scientific theory making, leads to a series of useful explanations for a variety of phenomena, such as the high rate of post traumatic stress disorders among Vietnam veterans, why the rate of aggravated assault continues to climb, and why civilian populations that have endured heavy bombing in warfare do not have high incidents of mental illness. This important book deserves a wide readership. Essential for all libraries serving military personnel or veterans, including most public libraries.
Mary Ann Hughes, Neill P.L., Pullman, Wash.



Also on point, in the military and intelligence communities, they prefer for high level "work" people who are already sociopaths, many of the tests they administer are to determine who is the crazy nut they can pluck out of the ordinary ranks for "wet work".

Not at all. Sociopaths once identified tend to be quickly dropped out of most units one way or the other.

[PangQuan]

no it what gives him the ability to make proper use of it

so you're of the mindset that man has the inherent instinct to kill for survival/etc. yet without experience, man would not be able to utilize this aspect of himself??

[golden arhat]

so you're of the mindset that man has the inherent instinct to kill for survival/etc. yet without experience, man would not be able to utilize this aspect of himself??

yeah

i mean an animal has the ability to switch in to life or death mode at the drop of a hat right ?

i think that we have sort of conditioned alot of this behaviour out of ourselves
and made ourselves softer


so experience through sparring and fighting are essential aspects of letting us utilize all our tools

and to know when and how to use/control them

[PangQuan]

yeah

i mean an animal has the ability to switch in to life or death mode at the drop of a hat right ?

i think that we have sort of conditioned alot of this behaviour out of ourselves
and made ourselves softer


so experience through sparring and fighting are essential aspects of letting us utilize all our tools

and to know when and how to use/control them

good call. well, im on the same page as you at least :cool:

[rogue]

yeah

i mean an animal has the ability to switch in to life or death mode at the drop of a hat right ?

i think that we have sort of conditioned alot of this behaviour out of ourselves
and made ourselves softer


so experience through sparring and fighting are essential aspects of letting us utilize all our tools

and to know when and how to use/control them

But we are talking about killing one of our own species. Usually, not always, when you see two animals of the same species fighting you will see a lot of posturing, and the physical part being almost ritual in format.

Also sparring and fighting do not bring all of your tools into play as there is a lot more to killing than just physical tools.

[golden arhat]

But we are talking about killing one of our own species. Usually, not always, when you see two animals of the same species fighting you will see a lot of posturing, and the physical part being almost ritual in format.

Also sparring and fighting do not bring all of your tools into play as there is a lot more to killing than just physical tools.

yeah but man ive seen monkeys murder each other

and lions and well pretty much anything else baboons u name it

u see posturing in human fights aswell

sparring and fighting wont let u have everything i mean u wont be a straight up killer if u spar or fight full contact
but it will give u the idea and it certainly helps u get in that mindset know what u have to do and control yourself from going over the top


i mean i dont set out to kill someone on the mats and i dont think
oh i'm gonna hit him hard or weak

i just fight, and survive
no pontification

i just fight with my programmed responses and do what feels natural

my training serves to teach me proper technique and program me with the proper responses
it also serves to help me unlearn all the bad "hom osapiens" patterns of behaviour
like reason and the crawl up in a ball and hopes it stops mentality

ok for example

at my gym when u get thrown on the ground in the first few weeks of training and ur on the floor gasping for breath saying stop etc trying to reason with ur opponent then my teacher would say
" this is where u would be getting ur head kicked in u cant ask them to stop on the street"

after that if i carried on i would just get kicked and choked out etc and i unlearned that pattern of behaviour and just started to not care if i was tired ad not care about anything with my only response being to try and get to my feet and come out on top

thats at the crux of it u dont think u just do

so by sparring and fighting although u dont use all your tools u learn little by little where u could use them and shed excess baggage

leaving u completely stripped down with only ur animal instinct to come out on top left in the real fight

of course the reasoning brain comes in to play in sparring aswell

e.g knowing when to stop , when to let go, etc but it also tells u that if it were for real that u wouldnt stop until his body went limp

anyway its quite late here goin bed soon

hope i made some sense

[Shadow Skill]

Instead of having a parent make me fight my older brother would. but in the same manner If you don't fight I'm gonna kick your a$$. so I'd fight and to this day he's the only person that has kicked my a$$. So those childhood experiences help rid me of the flight portion of "Fight or Flight"
Growing up also developed a Pack mentality. My father would drill into us nobody F's with your family "If your brother fights and gets beat up you better have gotten you a$$ kick along with him. and your cousins (all 24 of them) they're the next closest thing you'll have to brothers. so basicly if you fight one of us you had to fight us all.
Then to further instill a fighting mentality when we " me my brother and 24 cousins had a fight they just got us boxing gloves an let us go at it.

with all that said I'm proof that outside influences and enviornment play a large in developing " killer instinct"

[djcaldwell]

Instead of having a parent make me fight my older brother would. but in the same manner If you don't fight I'm gonna kick your a$$. so I'd fight and to this day he's the only person that has kicked my a$$. So those childhood experiences help rid me of the flight portion of "Fight or Flight"
Growing up also developed a Pack mentality. My father would drill into us nobody F's with your family "If your brother fights and gets beat up you better have gotten you a$$ kick along with him. and your cousins (all 24 of them) they're the next closest thing you'll have to brothers. so basicly if you fight one of us you had to fight us all.
Then to further instill a fighting mentality when we " me my brother and 24 cousins had a fight they just got us boxing gloves an let us go at it.

with all that said I'm proof that outside influences and enviornment play a large in developing " killer instinct"


LOL...family memories. I have the same kind - I am the oldest so I was only challenged by the second oldest who is 2 years younger. He actually tried to hit me with a shovel the rivalry got so bad at one point. But our uncles would just make us duke it out. But let anyone else mess with him or any of them as with yours you can relate there would be an army outside all ready to rumble. Ahhhh childhood...

[lkfmdc]

Not at all. Sociopaths once identified tend to be quickly dropped out of most units one way or the other.

I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll suggest that those who disappear from standard units end up in other places......

[Yum Cha]

The military and other black ops agencies use special people, you're right. I've seen sociopaths working for DEA, but everybody I ever met working for "un named" agencies was stone cold professional, grade A disciplined, finest kind. Sometimes they get broken, like top gun pilots, they lose their edge, they don't last forever.

You have to be predictable, follow orders to the letter and smart as hell. Thats just not a sociopath, they'd be used for expendable tasks, played for their weaknesses by the puppet masters.

I believe you can condition and train spirit in a fighter. We actively train it in our school, as the third step in the three steps of technique, power and spirit. To some it comes more naturally than others, granted. Some never get it, granted, but some pick it up and run with it. You can't make a blanket statement.

[alchemist]

You have to be predictable, follow orders to the letter and smart as hell. Thats just not a sociopath, they'd be used for expendable tasks, played for their weaknesses by the puppet masters.


A sociopath is exactly the kind of creature that can obey an unethical order without any inconvenient mental/emotional conflict to slow it down. They are very clever in the same way a particularly gifted predator is clever, but they are not likely to create great and original works of art. They also have the lack of emotional affect that is necessary to having moral dilemmas, post-traumatic stress disorders, instabilities, etc. They will come across as being immensely self-assured, and in a shallow sense, they are. Since this shallowness is all they experience, the stability is not an illusion that will crack. Since predation is about their only interface with life, hierarchies such as governments and militaries, where one can attain secure control of numerous individuals, are places in which they may thrive.

Having a warrior's spirit, killer instinct, etc. are issues for regular humans. Sociopaths do not have to worry about it. Every warrior's path to such a spirit will be different because environment, genetics, motivation, means, and many other factors make each path perhaps unique. I would have to guess there are archetypal ways to describe this journey.

[golden arhat]

I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll suggest that those who disappear from standard units end up in other places......

yes i agree with you

i have seen the army turn ppl in to sociopaths as experiments

its well documented

like for instance there was a unit in okinawa that werent alowed to see daylight and had classical music pumped in the whole time as a trigger for violence (e.g ride of the valkyries) they were put to bed at 8 in the morning and woken up at 7pm(with the same classical muisic) in the evening then again at completely different times etc
anyway the result ws that everybody fought with everybody else and made them all really violent

[rogue]

I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll suggest that those who disappear from standard units end up in other places......

...for sure, but may I suggest even then some of those men are of very limited use and are somewhat disposable depending on how nuts they are.



at my gym when u get thrown on the ground in the first few weeks of training and ur on the floor gasping for breath saying stop etc trying to reason with ur opponent then my teacher would say
" this is where u would be getting ur head kicked in u cant ask them to stop on the street"

after that if i carried on i would just get kicked and choked out etc and i unlearned that pattern of behaviour and just started to not care if i was tired ad not care about anything with my only response being to try and get to my feet and come out on top

thats at the crux of it u dont think u just do

so by sparring and fighting although u dont use all your tools u learn little by little where u could use them and shed excess baggage

leaving u completely stripped down with only ur animal instinct to come out on top left in the real fight

Not bad Fred, but that is only a part of it. For one thing animal instinct may be great in a one on one or as a last resort but may be the worse thing at other times. Sometimes you have to work at a higher level.

Another thing is can you take someone out before they are an actual physical threat to you, in what circumstances would you do it and how would you do it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

One of the interesting points several of these posts brought up was the issue of social class in the development of killer instinct. Nowadays, we tend to think "street tough" is the only way to develop this instinct. In bygone eras, killer instinct was actually the product of social elitism, and it was the upper classes that fostered this instinct.

If I am not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere that during the early years of Brazilian Jiujitsu, it was most popular with rich kids, who slummed around, had all day to practice with their dojo, and enjoyed using their skills in street brawls and at bars, just for the hell of it. So it wasn't the poor kids picking on others. It was rich people picking on the poor. They called them baju boys.....or something like that.

Weren't the Gracies rich kids? (I can't recall)

[David Jamieson]

meditate.

clear the mid.

you don't need to be psycho or aggressive to know what to do, when to do it etc.

you do need the clear mindedness to be able to carry out with intention and purpose what must be done.

some method can be applied in order to train this, a lot of it you either have or you don't and should work towards.

if you're a buckler, you're a buckler and for the most part, you ever shall be that, until you grow tired of getting your ass whipped all the time.

meditate.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think self-confidence, pride, and character are more important that the killer instinct.

I went to an inner city school in Detroit for quite a while. It wasn't the "hoods" everyone had to look out for. It was that musclehead new age Black Panther you didn't want to F-with. A dude named Big Willy at my school was one of those guys. I didn't know anything about MA back then, but I'll bet he was a Kempo guy. Anyways, whenever street hoods started some stuff with anyone in Big Willy's hood, they had to go through Big Willy, and they never wanted to. (He wasn't worth shooting, I guess).

Anyways, this guy, in a fight, knew he could take any punch you could give him, that you couldn't take two of his, and he thought he was above you physically and in confidence, and he picked his fights. I don't think he'd ever lost by the time I moved to some comfy suburbs in Metro-Atlanta thanks to a huge promotion and large salary increase my dad received.

Oh, and Willy was a straight A student.

[TenTigers]

I think the mindset can definately be trained. Sanchin kata-saam jien kuen teaches students to be able to withstand strikes-hard strikes, and take a step forward with no fear.
"Getting HIT is not the same as getting HURT," is something I teach in my school.
Briefly, our method goes like this:
Samjien Kuen
pressure testing
various body striking drills such as leg kicks,body kicks,sam-sing, etc
"gauntlet" where the student walks through a double row and takes roundhouse kicks to the body-believe it or not-everyone loves this drill-probabaly because it is "empowering"
Saamjien sparring-a throwback to my brief stint with Seido/Kyokushin-bare knuckle sparring-hard contact to the body

The Wall-student learns blocking drills with back against the wall-ends up looking like Matrix.
All our "defensive" techniques begin with a step forward
Student is taught attack sequences from day one and is in every warm up in class, so attacking is hardwired into the student.

Circle drills develop a controlled adrenal response while doing specific skills, in a controlled enviornment.

Drilling reaction drills with intent is later on,(later on depending ot the techniques and the level of intensity) and is difficult as there is a fine line between doing this and going just a bit overboard and causing injury.
As teh intensity level raises, so does the oops factor, so gear is added to the mix.

So far, it is a work in progress, but I am pretty happy with the results. It is taught gradually, and with a very encouraging attitude, not a macho-hardcore attitude, and all students seem to be enjoying this method.

I am interested in the adrenal stress conditioning that they do in the monkey suits, but haven't gone there yet.

on a side note, within the forms, there is wired into them a mindset. This is found in the Five Animal set where each separate animal has an associated emotion with which the form is played-Anger/ferocity,cunning,cold-bloodedness,calm,"Indomitable spirit",etc. Other systems have this as well. In my limited experience with SPM, I have found that the training seems to have an effect on the practitioner as well. A more aggressive mindest seems to develop simply from the system. It is as if it is woven into the system, as it creeps up on you very gradually. Still trying to figure it out....

[golden arhat]

...for sure, but may I suggest even then some of those men are of very limited use and are somewhat disposable depending on how nuts they are.




Not bad Fred, but that is only a part of it. For one thing animal instinct may be great in a one on one or as a last resort but may be the worse thing at other times. Sometimes you have to work at a higher level.

Another thing is can you take someone out before they are an actual physical threat to you, in what circumstances would you do it and how would you do it?

i see your point
in a group fight i'd think a bit more and try and strategise for obvious reasons


and i have to say fights can obviously be avoided through talking and posturing and with the eyes

but obviously strategising and posturing etc
however i think the ability to react is more important

as avoiding fights comes much more naturally than actually fighting well

[Ray Pina]

I read a great book last summer about how few soldiers fired their weapons at the enemy in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Higher rates of direct fire were found among artillers and heavy gunners, less personal forms of killing... so it showed an ingrain resistance to kill.

However, I think a MA can be trained in good, solid technique. And if they test their skills enough and are comfortable, when pressed, they will perform.

I'm never angry when I fight, I'm not out to kill, etc. I'm looking to negate any incoming attacks and land my own as powerfully as possible. That's it. The end result presents itself... a broken nose or rib. These add up and fights end.

[Samurai Jack]

For the record, anger is not the same thing as killer instinct. I think of it as more of a certain numbness, or a calm that falls over you. Where other people are getting out of control when they get the adrenaline dump, the one with killer instinct gets focused. There's no room for romantic notions. It's not a berserker rage either. It's like you are pulling weeds. You don't get upset, or freak out. You just grab the root, focus on the task at hand, and pull the weed.

[SevenStar]

One of the interesting points several of these posts brought up was the issue of social class in the development of killer instinct. Nowadays, we tend to think "street tough" is the only way to develop this instinct. In bygone eras, killer instinct was actually the product of social elitism, and it was the upper classes that fostered this instinct.

If I am not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere that during the early years of Brazilian Jiujitsu, it was most popular with rich kids, who slummed around, had all day to practice with their dojo, and enjoyed using their skills in street brawls and at bars, just for the hell of it. So it wasn't the poor kids picking on others. It was rich people picking on the poor. They called them baju boys.....or something like that.

Weren't the Gracies rich kids? (I can't recall)

All things being equal - as in people with no training - yeah, the kid from the hood will generally have the more developed killer instinct. The rich kid with training may or may not be able to equal that instinct, for the simple fact that they aren't battle tested. That's equivalent to the MA argument of theory vs experience. Now, if that rich kid is trained and has experience, then sure.

[SevenStar]

For the record, anger is not the same thing as killer instinct. I think of it as more of a certain numbness, or a calm that falls over you. Where other people are getting out of control when they get the adrenaline dump, the one with killer instinct gets focused. There's no room for romantic notions. It's not a berserker rage either. It's like you are pulling weeds. You don't get upset, or freak out. You just grab the root, focus on the task at hand, and pull the weed.


once the weed is pulled, do you puff it and pass?

[SevenStar]

I think self-confidence, pride, and character are more important that the killer instinct.

I went to an inner city school in Detroit for quite a while. It wasn't the "hoods" everyone had to look out for. It was that musclehead new age Black Panther you didn't want to F-with. A dude named Big Willy at my school was one of those guys. I didn't know anything about MA back then, but I'll bet he was a Kempo guy. Anyways, whenever street hoods started some stuff with anyone in Big Willy's hood, they had to go through Big Willy, and they never wanted to. (He wasn't worth shooting, I guess).

Anyways, this guy, in a fight, knew he could take any punch you could give him, that you couldn't take two of his, and he thought he was above you physically and in confidence, and he picked his fights. I don't think he'd ever lost by the time I moved to some comfy suburbs in Metro-Atlanta thanks to a huge promotion and large salary increase my dad received.

Oh, and Willy was a straight A student.

LOL, I was a willy in elementary thru high school. I started training when I was younger, have always been strong for my age, especially then, and when one of my friends got beaten up, they would come get me and I would beat up whomever beat them up. I was a straight 'A' student, so whenever I did fight in school, teachers automatically assumed I didn't start it and sent me back to class. I never once got suspended.

[RonH]

All things being equal - as in people with no training - yeah, the kid from the hood will generally have the more developed killer instinct. The rich kid with training may or may not be able to equal that instinct, for the simple fact that they aren't battle tested. That's equivalent to the MA argument of theory vs experience. Now, if that rich kid is trained and has experience, then sure.

In my experience, those from 'the hood' are more likely to develop a flight response more than fight or even killer instinct. There could be posturing and blustering, though it's usually to stall for enough time to figure out how you get yourself out of the area as quickly as possible.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are gonna "awaken" the killer mindset, then you MUST build the safeguards too, to do otherwise is morally and ethically wrong.

[SevenStar]

In my experience, those from 'the hood' are more likely to develop a flight response more than fight or even killer instinct. There could be posturing and blustering, though it's usually to stall for enough time to figure out how you get yourself out of the area as quickly as possible.

your hoods are way different than mine. But then also, we have had 9 murders in the past 11 days... even if someone DID run, they would likely come back looking for you with a weapon. If they do run, you had better run as well.

[djcaldwell]

In my experience, those from 'the hood' are more likely to develop a flight response more than fight or even killer instinct. There could be posturing and blustering, though it's usually to stall for enough time to figure out how you get yourself out of the area as quickly as possible.

I have to go with Seven on that - if you are in the hood here in NYC it's not that you can't run but the you're a target forever more. So no one runs. I've seen people posture and get their arse kicked but at least they stood there and put up the best fight they could.

Seven is right - heck I've had friends that didn't run - postured and walked away from the situation only to come get a carful of other people to go back later. That's why when I lived in the city it was walk, look straight, no eye contact becaue just looking at people can be reason for a fight and if you back down then everytime they see you you're getting harrassed.

Flight and the "nah man I was only foolin" I saw more when I moved out to the suburbs than in the city.

[Samurai Jack]

once the weed is pulled, do you puff it and pass?

No, I just pass. You'd think people would appreciate it that I don't bogart the doobidge. Instead, I never get invited to weed pulls anymore.