Is There a Difference in Chi Sao and Arm Clinging ?

[Firehawk4]

In the Liang Guang Man book that i have they have what is called Arm Clining is this different than Chi Sao ? Liang Guang Man s is from the Yui Choi Yui Kia branch of Wing Chun .

[AmanuJRY]

I'm pretty sure that it's the same thing.:)

[Wu Wei Wu]

A stab in the dark, but perhaps arm clinging refers to the sticking platform used by many Non-Yip Man lineages. It may be the 'seung huen sau (type) chi sao.'

[canglong]

Firehawk,
The difference may be found in the fact that chi sau is executed closer to the hand and kiu sau is executed between the wrist and elbow. So arm clinging is possibly another term for kiu sau more so than it is for chi sau.

[ChangHFY]

Hey Firehawk,

The arm clinging that your talking about is another term for Chi Sau.
The Chi or Che concept can be translated as either sticking or clinging.

But then again Chi is only a concept anyways, so the expression can be different based on dimensions and time frames.



take care,
Zach

[planetwc]

Perhaps in HFY.

In Yip Man Wing Chun Chi Sau certainly is not restricted to the wrist/hand area. Normal Wing Chun Chi Sao would be the same thing as what you are calling Kiu Sau.


Firehawk,
The difference may be found in the fact that chi sau is executed closer to the hand and kiu sau is executed between the wrist and elbow. So arm clinging is possibly another term for kiu sau more so than it is for chi sau.

[k gledhill]

Some schools of thought would argue that Chi-sao isnt about trying to stick to anything. Chi also means air , breath, life, living hands, alive , training with a live partner. We 'develop' certain VT qualities for a very short engagement with an opponent. The Chisao gives us a way to develop correct arm-body structures, balance, force and ability to maintain 'fighting ' distances in motion ...like boxers doing sparring work with a sparring 'partner'...reciprical help from each other for the real deal....When real forces are applied to newly trained arms its easy to see what happens in the early stages of chi-sao...like doing a bench press for the first time , arms are working together attemting to maintain certain lines of support while another is doing its own thing ...not easy at first, until a certain amount of practice then it becomes easy and techniques are introduced .
Dan chi allows 'individual' arm development of the early stages of lin sil di da , at a slightly extended distance compared to lok sao...in the dan chisao the object isnt the striking distances of chisao, but initial development of the concepts 'in live action'...
Chisao you take a closer distance so one can reach with a shot at all times and develop each others structures alternating ..I punch, you punch my punch... you punch I punch your punch, each developing lin sil di da [ if you dont understand the last sentence, there lies a problem you need to address 1st] . add random response factor add seung ma / toi ma etc.. and systematicly develop each other until one can perform the random acts in a flowing response to an attacking side or flank, without thinking ,losing balance, structure, impact, damaging force, in movement, etc...

The Chi-sao can be thought of as only using 'sticking' for developing our own arms ability to 'know' force, relative to a 'line of force' the force of a real arm delivering real energy to our stuctured elbow in [or not ] arm ....the 'sticking' allows us to feel energy, delivered by our partners , in an alternating manner. This 'force line' relative to either side of our forearms is simply a means to and end of development of lin sil di da .... dan chi sao becomes redundant as you find new stones to x the river of vt understanding...look back and you will see the river is filling with knowledge that covers the previous stages/stones you used, only the stones needed remain showing the way ahead....
example:
I do fook sao resting neutral arm .you start a hit using tan , i develop jum / hit...you develop bridged arm recovery by doin bong [ without vusao its partner] repeatt 2,3,4, 1,000,000 times correct any mistakes that appear , move on...
change arms, I do what you just did etc......the missing keys or directives for using the correct lines lies in the weapons , so looking for answers in 'chisao' will lead you to all kinds of erroneous responses that you ' think' will work , but only because your ASS- u-me/ing your going to receive an attack like you do in chisao...facing square on to an attack with 2 arms extended ....:D...why schools devlop 'footwork' to get outof the way of chisao thinking ...why tansao block doesnt work...why because the positions you are meant to be in when 'freefighting ' arent the same as chisao 'training'...;)

a lot of chi sao becomes redundant as you find new stones to x the river of vt understanding...look back and you will see the river is filling with knowledge that covers the previous stages/stones that you used, only the stones needed remain showing the way ahead....the end being to developing the full force of this 'river' in a unrelenting surge known as a VT attack :D

[duende]

Perhaps in HFY.

In Yip Man Wing Chun Chi Sau certainly is not restricted to the wrist/hand area. Normal Wing Chun Chi Sao would be the same thing as what you are calling Kiu Sau.

For the sake of clarity, I would have to disagree. In my YM experience... while it's not always focused on the wrist/hand area, having experience both HFY Kiu Sau and YM Chi Sau I can say they are most definitely two different animals. Zack has many years studying YM as well, in fact If I'm not mistaken, he's Sifu Level in the YM. The Poon Sau rolling platform in YM looks and behaves nothing at all like the HFY Kiu Sau platform.

Take a look at other Short Range Southern CMA's.. you'll see not only alot of arm clinging, but also hard bridging that occurs at a different range and different angles that what you normally see in YM Chi Sao.

[passing_through]

Canglong wrote:
The difference may be found in the fact that chi sau is executed closer to the hand and kiu sau is executed between the wrist and elbow. So arm clinging is possibly another term for kiu sau more so than it is for chi sau.

PlanetWC wrote:
Perhaps in HFY.

In Yip Man Wing Chun Chi Sau certainly is not restricted to the wrist/hand area. Normal Wing Chun Chi Sao would be the same thing as what you are calling Kiu Sau.

PlanetWC - before saying how things should be called or not called, I’d suggest it wise to have experience on all sides of the conversation first. Canglong made a general comment to a general question from Firehawk. There’s more to what makes Kiu Sau and Chi Sau what they are in the HFY family than just contact area of the arm. And ‘Normal Wing Chun Chi Sao’ doesn’t really exist - from my own direct experience the the Moy Yat, William Cheung, Leung Ting, Wong Shun Leung, Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and Leung Shun families all have unique approaches to the topic of Chi Sau - with some shared methods, concepts and terminology as well… and all those variations stem from one family before adding in other Wing Chun lineages… which makes the research of Wing Chun as a whole a very interesting experience :) And you can check this (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?p=774919&posted=1#post774919) as well

And just for general edification: Chi and Hei are two different characters with two different meanings.

Hei (http://vtmuseum.org/images/characters/h/hei_qi_246.gif) (Qi in Mandarin)- meaning air; gas; vapor; atmosphere breath spirit; character influence bearing; manner smell; odor to be angry; to be indignant to provoke; to goad


Chi (http://vtmuseum.org/images/characters/c/chi_stick.gif) (Chi or Li in Mandarin) - meaning to stick; sticky

As for Firehawk’s original question of In the Liang Guang Man book that i have they have what is called Arm Clining is this different than Chi Sao ? Liang Guang Man s is from the Yui Choi Yui Kia branch of Wing Chun .

You should ask someone with experience in Liang Guang Man’s approach to Wing Chun in person to get your answer. Anyone can guess but you’ll just be getting a lot of opinions from all corners of the Earth. It’s best to speak directly to people with direct experience. But ultimately… of course there’s a difference - or else it’d be called the same thing ;)

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[ChangHFY]

Thanks for the comments,

Sibaakgung Alex and Sibaak Jeremy.

Your info was definitely enlightening.


I wish you the best.


take care,
Zach

[Liddel]

while it's not always focused on the wrist/hand area, having experience both HFY Kiu Sau and YM Chi Sau I can say they are most definitely two different animals.

Firstly - Using the term "YM chi Sao" is to general.
Two different students of "Popular WC" as HFY calls it, can be very different indeed. :rolleyes:

And for the sake of discussion -
I understand - they may be two different animals...
but IMHO if you are not using the forearm often at Chi Sao and Poon Sao stages all the way to Gor and Lux Sao. Then you really are limiting yourself.

Take these two for instance -
Breaking the opponents bridge and most importantly
using the principal of running water or Gravity.

Both these heavily relied on aspects/concepts of "Popular WC" require use of the forearm for sucessful application IME.

It is present in "YM WC".... maybe not all, but its there.
:rolleyes:

DREW