e-mail about a tournament [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Shadow Skill

06-11-2007, 11:22 AM

What's your take on this. This is a e-mail between my sifu and Pete Starr regarding a tournament.

Hello, Everyone!

I've been batting around an idea...a tournament for traditional martial arts practitioners - one in which practitioners of both grappling (judo, jujutsu, aikido) and percussive (karate, kung-fu) arts can compete on equal footing.
I think it would be great fun...but I'll need your input and help. Maybe it's not really feasible but maybe it is. We'll see. I'll toss it into the meeting today and see where we go with it-

:-)
Pete Starr

My school would be interested in a full contact tournament. We would not be interested in a karate type point system tournament. We would like weapons as well as forms to be included as well. Please reply if this is agreeable.

Best regards,
Sifu Ralph Young

Hi, Ralph!

Oh, yeah - we'd have traditional forms and weapons...but the sparring wouldn't be full-contact (if nothing else, the insurance would kill us!)...I'm looking at an event like one of the events used by Master Nishiyama in his Internat'l Traditional Karate Assn. It's freestyle one-step which is safer than freestyle sparring but much more difficult to do...we'd have to get the instructors who are interested in it to attend a special session to look at it and train for judging it.
It'd be a lot of fun but would require real skill...I'll be sending out some info on it to get everyone's thoughts.

Thanks!
Pete

lkfmdc

06-11-2007, 12:19 PM

but the sparring wouldn't be full-contact (if nothing else, the insurance would kill us!)...

USKBA
IKF
KICK/WUKO
WKA

what do they all have in common? Tournaments with full contact fighting where they can, gasp, afford the insurance!

WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!

Lord forbid they do any sort of contact fighting, might show some of their students that things are different than they are being led to believe....

four hundred thumbs down

SevenStar

06-11-2007, 12:22 PM

agreed. that is BS.

Shadow Skill

06-11-2007, 02:43 PM

When Sifu first moved here from Florida Pete Starr inivited him to participate in a tournament. After arriving Pete Starr suggested that he only demonstrte forms and maybe judge not fight. And then rattles off a list of things he can't do if he fights.

Recently Starr talked to Ralph and said I know Poo Yee is good I've met him before. Then said something to the like, Gin Foon Mark he's so fast "there is no way that Sh!t works". ( yes Sifu trained under Poo Yee in Florida ) not realizing that Sifu on occasion vists Gin Foon in Minnisota. Sifu's response was well lets find out if that sh!t works.

I've also heard other stories that give me the impression that someone is scared.
I guess thats why his book is called "Making of a Butterfly" instead of "Making of a Warrior"

street_fighter

06-11-2007, 05:54 PM

uughh :rolleyes: point sparring, and forms competitions... confirming my belief that starr is a pansy

YiLiQuan1

06-12-2007, 09:23 PM

Who's your teacher, Shadow Skill? I'm curious...

My teacher is Pete Starr...

:mad:

Perhaps you ought to contact Sifu Starr directly and ask what his motivations were, rather than posting anonymously on the internet, talking smack, and generally making an ass of yourself and your teacher...

Then again, "warriors" wouldn't have to be encouraged to do so. They wouldn't hesitate to contact the person with whom they took issue immediately instead of asking complete strangers for their opinions about a situation the strangers weren't party to...

Since you live in Omaha, why don't you pop down to their classes and air your grievances instead of hiding behind your keyboard?

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 05:12 AM

To Whom It May Concern-

Whoever this "Shadowskill" character is (note that he lacks the courage to reveal his true name - ), his story is utter hogwash with bits and pieces of truth tossed in here and there.

I don't recall inviting Mr. Young to a tournament when he first arrived from Florida...maybe yes, maybe no. Ralph and I have been friends for some time now. I do know, however, that I never told Mr. Young that he could not participate in the fighting competition of any tournament whatsoever. THAT part of Shadowskill's story never happened.

Shadowskill's reference to my remarks regarding Gin Foon Mark are also way off base...I said that Mr. Mark is incredibly fast and when I first saw his skill, I couldn't understand how it worked. That's a bit different from "Da Shadow's" quote.

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

Or if "Da Shadow" prefers, he's more than welcome - as is anyone - to visit my school and ask for a full-contact match with me or any of my senior students. Any time we have class...come on down. But leave your marshmallow pads at home.

As for fighting under "traditional rules" that are currently in use in international competition, I seriously doubt that Mr. Shadow would last more than a few seconds. It isn't "point fighting" as was used back in the day - it's considerably different. But it's controlled.

It's one thing to hide behind a keyboard and tell lies and complain. It's quite another thing to go directly to the person with whom you have a problem and meet face to face. Mr. Shadow, would you be man enough to do me that kindness? Or will you stay hidden in the shadows as you name suggests?

Love,
P. Starr

TenTigers

06-13-2007, 05:50 AM

"The Making of a Butterfly" was written by Phillip Starr.

Hau Tien

06-13-2007, 06:25 AM

My goodness.

From Mr. Shadow Skill's profile here:

http://www.myspace.com/bbub

That should give you an idea of who he is.

Cheers!

D. Scott Dellinger

To Whom It May Concern-

Whoever this "Shadowskill" character is (note that he lacks the courage to reveal his true name - ), his story is utter hogwash with bits and pieces of truth tossed in here and there.

I don't recall inviting Mr. Young to a tournament when he first arrived from Florida...maybe yes, maybe no. Ralph and I have been friends for some time now. I do know, however, that I never told Mr. Young that he could not participate in the fighting competition of any tournament whatsoever. THAT part of Shadowskill's story never happened.

Shadowskill's reference to my remarks regarding Gin Foon Mark are also way off base...I said that Mr. Mark is incredibly fast and when I first saw his skill, I couldn't understand how it worked. That's a bit different from "Da Shadow's" quote.

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

Or if "Da Shadow" prefers, he's more than welcome - as is anyone - to visit my school and ask for a full-contact match with me or any of my senior students. Any time we have class...come on down. But leave your marshmallow pads at home.

As for fighting under "traditional rules" that are currently in use in international competition, I seriously doubt that Mr. Shadow would last more than a few seconds. It isn't "point fighting" as was used back in the day - it's considerably different. But it's controlled.

It's one thing to hide behind a keyboard and tell lies and complain. It's quite another thing to go directly to the person with whom you have a problem and meet face to face. Mr. Shadow, would you be man enough to do me that kindness? Or will you stay hidden in the shadows as you name suggests?

Love,
P. Starr

lkfmdc

06-13-2007, 07:02 AM

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

Special Markets Group insures full contact fighitng for around $600..... with the rates you guys charge for your tournaments that means you only need around 8 people to cover the cost of that. So why won't you offer full contact? It isn't the cost of the insurance

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

LMFAO, ok super warrior, and your students would enter this?

YiLiQuan1

06-13-2007, 07:58 AM

"The Making of a Butterfly" was written by Phillip Starr.

His name is Phillip Starr, certainly, but he goes by the nickname "Pete." Not your fault for not knowing that. Living in Omaha, it's likely that Shadow Skill reasonably would have...

LMFAO, ok super warrior, and your students would enter this?

I would... Whether I win or lose isn't the point for me. The only concern I'd have, and the one that would likely keep me from entering, is that the Army (who I have to defer to) might frown on my participating in a bare-knuckle fight.

Honestly, though, knowing how restrictive Nebraska's boxing commission has been in the past, I'm not sure if such a contest would be possible. There'd have to be at least some kind of hand/foot/head gear worn... :(

Ultimately, though, the entire point of the tournament (from what I know of it) is to bring TMA schools together, reinforce traditional training standards and values, and to drag some of the local schools away from the "creative" and "musical" forms competitions that they're only further degrading TMA with. It's not bad enough that Nebraska is inundated with ATA TKD schools (and Omaha has at least 1 or 2 that also teach Krav Maga), but then there are plenty of schools that think making up forms and setting them to music constitutes "real" martial arts (or worse yet "extreme" martial arts).

I've known Sifu Starr for a long time - 22 years so far - and though he's got strong opinions, he's never been one to go out of his way to pick a fight with someone just for show. Of course, I've never known him, or any of our students (some of whom did compete in the ring years back), to back down when someone was talking smack... :cool:

lkfmdc - I normally agree with your opinions and perspectives, 90% or more. This time, though, I have to say I don't appreciate your attitude toward my teacher. You don't know him, you don't know his motives. You're basing your responses on the comments of a person who, in all likelihood, is pursuing his own agenda against my teacher, his school, and/or his students. I'm not asking for apologies, just a little consideration in the future. The old man has done his time, punched his card, and earned a little respect. He fought in tournaments "back in the day" when a "point" fight usually left a little of someone's blood on the floor. Hell, even when I started the point tournaments were only a hair shy of full contact... :D Not UFC or K-1 level, to be sure, but they were pretty rough nonetheless.

Have to get ready for work. More later...

lkfmdc

06-13-2007, 09:25 AM

:eek:

Asking amateurs, but especially regular students, to fight no gear is stupid (oh, got to be nice, "silly" ok?)

Want to fight no gear and blood and guts? PAY US. That's the way pro's fight

lkfmdc - I normally agree with your opinions and perspectives, 90% or more. This time, though, I have to say I don't appreciate your attitude toward my teacher. You don't know him, you don't know his motives. You're basing your responses on the comments of a person who, in all likelihood, is pursuing his own agenda against my teacher, his school, and/or his students. I'm not asking for apologies, just a little consideration in the future. The old man has done his time, punched his card, and earned a little respect. He fought in tournaments "back in the day" when a "point" fight usually left a little of someone's blood on the floor. Hell, even when I started the point tournaments were only a hair shy of full contact... :D Not UFC or K-1 level, to be sure, but they were pretty rough nonetheless.

Have to get ready for work. More later...

Actually, this is the same Starr who took over the AAU Chinese martial arts program, took it away from the Kyokushinkai guy who did nothing with it, yes? Ken Lo and I were asked by Starr to set up the AAU in NY. We tired but failed because of the way he ran it.... I disinctly remember instructions to write rules and run events so no one who wasn't a "kung fu person" could enter the fighting divisions. If kung fu really is a superior method, why worry about who enters the fighting divisions? Then I remember the "style points" we were supposed to award a guy who "fought like kung fu", ie you could get your butt beat up but if you looked "like kung fu" you were supposed to win? :eek:

NOTHING PERSONAL, nothing personal at all, I just don't agree with his vision

MasterKiller

06-13-2007, 10:32 AM

Honestly, though, knowing how restrictive Nebraska's boxing commission has been in the past, I'm not sure if such a contest would be possible. There'd have to be at least some kind of hand/foot/head gear worn... :(

Dude, we have amateur and pro MMA in Oklahoma now. If we can do it, you can too. 4 oz gloves feel like bare-knuckles when you get smacked with them.

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 11:20 AM

In the AAU compedtition program there was, I repeat, NEVER anything awarded for someone who "looked like he was doing kung-fu." Lkfmdc, Where on earth did you ever come up with that notion? Do you have one of the old competition rules handbooks? I do. If you will kindly direct me to the pages where that statement is made, I'll concede. But it just isn't there. Never was.

The rules were NOT made so that only kung-fu people could fight in our tournaments. Many karate stylists did. How many of our tournaments did you attend?

The AAU proghram in NYC had problems due to political issues stemming from another kung-fu group in that area. It had nothing to do with the rules of competition.

And - my students would dearly love to step onto the floor with someone like "Da Shadow" without protective gear. They might even fight each other first to see who gets to do the honors.

So, since the insurance is, as you claim, a mere $600 would you want to purchase it for us so we can have a full-contact event? No one else is much interested in such an event...so it'd pretty much consist of only two schools getting involved.

I'm just thinking of conducting a traditional-type event here...to promote the traditional martial arts as opposed to the sports-oriented stuff which so many people think is the REAL thing. I have no interest in seeing who's the toughest or who has the biggest ****. I'm way too old for that foolishness and in any case, it certainly isn't martial arts.

YiLiQuan1

06-13-2007, 11:27 AM

Asking amateurs, but especially regular students, to fight no gear is stupid (oh, got to be nice, "silly" ok?)

Granted. But it's a **** fine way to weed out the wannabes that talk smack about how tough they are, and how willing they are to go the distance, when in reality they couldn't take the risk... Those who are really willing to walk the walk compete in already established venues (e.g. local NHB/MMA fights). Those that don't, well, they spend their time on the internet talking smack about everyone else...

That's why there's MMA fights and non-MMA/point fights. Different venues for people who are differently inclined.

Want to fight no gear and blood and guts? PAY US. That's the way pro's fight

I agree. I wish I wasn't the age I am, and I wish the Army hadn't banged me up as much as it did... I want to compete in MMA, I really do. However, and I've had long discussions with my wife about this, I have to look at the reality of the situation... I'm pushing 40, I've got bad knees, a bad back, so what I'm capable of doing in preparation for, and during, such a bout is probably beyond me at this point. If I could, I would, but I have to be mature about this and recognize my limitations...

Actually, this is the same Starr who took over the AAU Chinese martial arts program, took it away from the Kyokushinkai guy who did nothing with it, yes?

Same guy.

I disinctly remember instructions to write rules and run events so no one who wasn't a "kung fu person" could enter the fighting divisions. If kung fu really is a superior method, why worry about who enters the fighting divisions?

I was part of the AAU at that time, and I remember seeing the rules being written from scratch. I don't recall any rules necessarily preventing KF folks from participating, though I do recall their were specific performance standards outlined to prevent sloppy, back-turning, uncontrolled flying-jump kick stuff... I think I may still have the old rules in one of my boxes somewhere...

Then I remember the "style points" we were supposed to award a guy who "fought like kung fu", ie you could get your butt beat up but if you looked "like kung fu" you were supposed to win?

That is something I flatly do not recall seeing. I do remember that Yang Jwing-Ming and Jeff Bolt, in their large scale event, had some bizarre rules for awarding points for "strategy" and "successful blocking," but we never did anything like that in AAU... It was a full point for a proper technique, 1/2 point for what could have been proper except for minor errors, and no points for sloppily thrown garbage.

NOTHING PERSONAL, nothing personal at all, I just don't agree with his vision

No worries... I don't expect anyone to agree wholly with him or me. I disagree with him regularly on his perspectives on MMA. The only thing I'm in disagreement with at this point is Shadow Skill's behind-the-back BS. He lives in Omaha, so does Sifu Starr. If Shadow Skill has issues, he should wander down and air them publicly instead of coming online and asking strangers for their opinions about stuff that, apparently, Shadow Skill is/was only half informed about in the first place...

Thanks, though. I appreciate your honesty, and the courteous tone of your post. Seriously.

lkfmdc

06-13-2007, 11:30 AM

In the AAU compedtition program there was, I repeat, NEVER anything awarded for someone who "looked like he was doing kung-fu." Lkfmdc, Where on earth did you ever come up with that notion? Do you have one of the old competition rules handbooks? I do. If you will kindly direct me to the pages where that statement is made, I'll concede. But it just isn't there. Never was.

The rules were NOT made so that only kung-fu people could fight in our tournaments. Many karate stylists did. How many of our tournaments did you attend?

I sat in every meeting trying to establish AAU in NY, for almost a year.... and as we both know nothing really ever got done.... TCMA is always about politics but both Jeff Bolt's organization and the USA WKF did events in NY, they apparently got past the politics. Thre was a lot more to why AAU didn't work in NY, but that was like 20 years ago so why even dig it up?

So, since the insurance is, as you claim, a mere $600 would you want to purchase it for us so we can have a full-contact event?

Sure, if you give me every penny of the registration money you collect :rolleyes:

No one else is much interested in such an event...so it'd pretty much consist of only two schools getting involved.

Yeah, you can get 300 schools involved in forms and weapons competition but when it comes to full contact fighting, no one seems interested. That is precisely what is wrong with Chinese martial art today :rolleyes:

I'm just thinking of conducting a traditional-type event here...to promote the traditional martial arts as opposed to the sports-oriented stuff which so many people think is the REAL thing. I have no interest in seeing who's the toughest or who has the biggest ****. I'm way too old for that foolishness and in any case, it certainly isn't martial arts.

Nah, wouldn't want to have any realistic contact fighting would we? :rolleyes:

That's my point, exactly, you have no interest in fighting events.

It's hysterical that you call full contact fighting "sports oriented" yet ignore that you are promoting forms, weapons and POINT SPARRING :rolleyes:

YiLiQuan1

06-13-2007, 11:54 AM

I sat in every meeting trying to establish AAU in NY, for almost a year.... and as we both know nothing really ever got done.... TCMA is always about politics

Ain't that the truth... At the first 3 AAU National Tournaments, there were several big name people (names withheld - their identities aren't important, and folks who were there know what happened) who were shocked that a) they weren't paid, b) they weren't received as visiting dignitaries, and c) people didn't crowd them for autographs, photos, and other ego boosting activities...

I called the AAU director for WA to volunteer for the state AAU CMA director job. Instead of saying "well, first you have to have your AAU membership, then you do X, Y, and Z, and voila," I received an incredibly rude, overly loud, tirade about how without an AAU membership I "wasn't going to do s..." Um, no kidding... The guy didn't care about my past experience, didn't care that I knew what the requirements were. He just yelled at me, cursed at me, and I told him that he needed me WAY more than I needed him... That was the last of that.

but both Jeff Bolt's organization and the USA WKF did events in NY, they apparently got past the politics. Thre was a lot more to why AAU didn't work in NY, but that was like 20 years ago so why even dig it up?

Bolt managed to make things work with the same personalities I referred to above. Whether that was due to his amazing ability with people, or because he deferred to their ego, I don't know. I know that we planted our feet firmly against outrageous requests from "VIPs" and that ****ed them off. Maybe Bolt catered to them more, to ensure a harmonious outcome. Whatever. Good for him that his event worked out.

Yeah, you can get 300 schools involved in forms and weapons competition but when it comes to full contact fighting, no one seems interested. That is precisely what is wrong with Chinese martial art today :rolleyes:

I agree. The unfortunate reality is that forms queens think they're capable of fighting. They misinterpret and misunderstand what they're doing. Personally, I think MMA venues are exactly the shot in the arm MA in general needed... Good, realistic, hard-hitting, gladiatorial events where what's "real" is exactly that.

That being said, I agree that much of what is seen in MMA venues (maybe less so UFC level stuff, but that WCL crap is scary) "isn't" representative of the ideal that martial artists try to uphold. Successful application aside, the quality of some fighters isn't all that high... I'm not saying I could necessarily do better, but I can watch a professional sporting event, with no professional sporting participation under my belt, and still point out the crappy players...

Nah, wouldn't want to have any realistic contact fighting would we? :rolleyes:

I don't think that's the issue... As you pointed out, most amateurs probably have no business stepping up for a full contact bout, even against another amateur.

That's my point, exactly, you have no interest in fighting events.

Again, I don't think that's the point. From what I've heard about Sifu's intentions/ideas, it's about injecting the greater Omaha area's TMA community with a dose of reinforced standards instead of the sloppy, form queen crap it's been leaning toward for 2 decades or more...

It's hysterical that you call full contact fighting "sports oriented" yet ignore that you are promoting forms, weapons and POINT SPARRING :rolleyes:

I think it may be a matter of semantics... I think by "sport" oriented, Sifu's referring to the somewhat less than stellar techniques exhibited by MMA fighters (I mean, please... even some of the top level fighters have really crappy kicks and punches... sure they hit hard, but they're hitting hard because of strength, not quality technique). I don't think he'd deny for a second the unrealistic nature of point fighting. I say that because I remember, as a junior student with about 3 months in training, in preparation for a local tournament, Sifu admonished us not to misunderstand what the sparring was - a game of tag. I also remember him telling us "this is for tournament, not for fighting" when he taught us how to deal with things in a point sparring situation. We spent all of 2 or 3 classes the week prior to a tournament "refreshing" ourselves on how to play that game. The attitude was "if you can hit for real, hard, without pads, and you can take a hit, for real, without pads, then all you have to do is back off the commitment in a point fight." The reverse wasn't true - if you only point fight, you can't just turn around and crank it up a notch.

Anyway...

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 12:29 PM

Certainly, there have been LOTS of bizarre stories about the AAU program (when I chaired it) and me as well. Most of them have been started by people who had/have their own agenda, who wanted to make money from the program rather than promote Chinese martial arts, or who were just too lazy to get involved with it. It was a great success back in the day and I'm proud of what we achieved.

I have no interest in people wearing spandex and boxing gloves trying to pound the bejeezus out of each other. To me, that's not martial arts at all. Just my opinion. But the martial disciplines of kung-fu and karate were never intended for use as sports. People like "Da Shadow" only want to try to show the world how tough they are and if someone declines to oblige them (for any reason), they start screaming, "Chicken." From a distance.

I will email "Da Shadow's" teacher to let him know that he's got a loose cannon with a big mouth rolling around. And if the keyboard warrior wants to come visit me at my school, he's certainly welcome to step forward and air his complaints. If he's so all-fired excited about having a full-contact event in this area, I suggest that he speak to his teacher about hosting one.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that Shadow will step out into the light and meet with me. People of his ilk like to make loud noises but that's about all they're good for.

lkfmdc

06-13-2007, 12:34 PM

I have no interest in people wearing spandex and boxing gloves trying to pound the bejeezus out of each other. To me, that's not martial arts at all. Just my opinion. But the martial disciplines of kung-fu and karate were never intended for use as sports.

Ah, you see, that is exactly what I was objecting to all along. I think your vision is both misinformed and flat out wrong. The hundreds, perhaps THOUSANDS, of TCMA styles weren't created so we could concentrate on the meaning of granola and have a love fest, they were created for FIGHTING.... but today, in this country, there is practically nothing left of TCMA fighting traditions.

If you ask me, in my opinion, the vision the so called leaders of TCMA SHOULD be following is to get rid of the pc mumbo jumbo, the fairy tales and the crap and re-invigorate our arts

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 12:50 PM

In many respects, I couldn't agree more. The "pretty fields and flowers" Taijiquan has killed that martial art. The fairy tales about the exploits of various masters and legendary stories about superhuman techniques have done us tremendous harm...largely because a lot of people actually bought into that stuff and believed it!!!

Nowadays we have the sports-oritented folks who do musical forms that more closely resemble a cross between sloppy gymnastics and break dancing, modern point fighting which is a game of tag without any real martial art technique, and weapons forms done with what appear to be tin swords...and the problem is that the many of those who are interested in learning martial arts actually believe that this is the real thing!

For theat matter, many of the competitors who participate in those kinds of events believe that they're doing real martial arts. I say, "Fishnipples." They wouldn't know real martial arts if they stepped knee-deep in it.

So I put together a group of traditionally-minded instructors in this area to promote traditional martial arts. Nothing political (I'm done with politics); just an informal group to put together events for the public as well as events for our students. And it's working very well.

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea of traditional martial arts going "full contact" to see what works and who's the best. That's like teaching knife-fighting with live blades or holding combat shooting competitions where people shoot at each other. To me, if two genuine martial arts people (who possess real skill) don lightweight gloves and have at it, one or both of them should end up crippled or dead.

However, the gloves actually decentralizes the force of the punch and alters the striking surface of the fist. That's why the old-time bare-knuckle boxer (who used to use straight thrusts) switched to using hooking punches. They found that they could generate power along the outer corner of the glove by using such techniques...and this is what happened in the case of "full contact karate."

I prefer to use more controlled settings but I know some people will disagree and that's okay. But do I want to promote the old "point fighting" stuff or the "point fighting" events that we see nowadays? Not a chance. I want to promote genuine martial arts. No gloves, no headgear, no chest pads...just sharp, clean, controlled technique.

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 01:36 PM

By the way, I met your teacher, Master Chan, many eons ago at one of Tat Wong's big tournaments. He didn't speak much English and a student translated for us - Master Chan asked if he could have a set of AAU medals...I didn't have any on that first day, so I told him to come back the next day and I'd give him a complete set.

He showed up and I gave him the medals for his collection. He was a wonderful man and a true hero. I've often told my students about him. You had a great teacher! Please extend my best wishes to your classmates-

Shadow Skill

06-13-2007, 07:14 PM

People like "Da Shadow" only want to try to show the world how tough they are and if someone declines to oblige them (for any reason), they start screaming, "Chicken." From a distance.

It's not about me being tough. IMO a tornament is competition. If someone punche me from eight feet away I'm not gonna block it. POINT!, make some contact. spm is a in close fighting system, I feel being 8-10 inches away limits our system. To me if you don't hit me it's not a point. If someone scores a point on me I'd like to know

Everyone in the traditional martial arts group my not be for full contact, ok then go medium contact. you want control, medium contact must show control. you want skill, striking full speed and making contact and not harming someone to me shows more skill then long range no contact. is my point.

Medium contact insurance can't be $1million.:D

YiLiQuan1

06-13-2007, 07:55 PM

Everyone in the traditional martial arts group my not be for full contact, ok then go medium contact. you want control, medium contact must show control. you want skill, striking full speed and making contact and not harming someone to me shows more skill then long range no contact. is my point.

Every "point" tournament I've ever attended in Omaha, from 1985 on, emphasized "jacket contact," i.e. making contact solely with the surface of the uniform, with minimal penetration. That was the scoring standard. The reality was that there was plenty of penetration - enough that more often than not you felt the punch/kick that hit you in the front jiggle you in the back. In one tournament, when I was just starting out, my opponent did a cross-stepping kick that impacted just below my knee and scraped down my shin to the ankle... I was almost unable to continue, but I wasn't going to allow some stankbird to take me out that easily. He still won, but I kept fighting to the end. In another bout, I knocked my opponent clean off his feet (poorly timed kick on his side, well timed punch on mine). I was fouled out for excessive contact, but the judge pulled us both together and told the "winner" that he lost, he knew he'd lost, and not to get uppity about winning a game of tag...

Shadow Skill, I'm guessing you may have misspoken previously. I highly recommend going over to Sifu Starr's class and taking a good look at what we do and how we train. I think you'll see that striking 8 - 10 inches from the striking surface is definitely not what we do. When you're hit, you know it, and you usually stay hit...

P. Starr

06-13-2007, 08:58 PM

Shadowskill - you apparently haven't been to many tournaments. I've never been to one where a blow that ends 8-10 inches away is called a point. Not ever.

Like Yiliquan 1 says, we use "jacket contact" in competition. That usually ends with some contact being made.

"Medium contact?" This is the same sort of thing I encountered many moons ago when I was competing - a tournament host suggested "light contact" to the face and head, "medium contact" to the body... so I asked him if he would allow one of the competitors to strike him in the face with "light contact" so we'd all know what it was. Of course, he declined. What is "light" for one person is "medium" or even "heavy" for another.

You're certainly welcome to stop by our class and work "medium contact" with my students. But I don't think you'd want to do it a second time. Like I said, everyone's definition of "medium contact" is a bit different.

I don't advocate the use of hand and foot pads because they alter the striking surface of the hands and feet and result in fighters throwing real technique to the wind...and trying to whack each other as hard as they can. And that's not martial arts.

A competition should not be about who's tougher. It should be about quality of technique and fighting skill. And it should be a learning experience.

However, you also stepped over the line by making inferences regarding my character. If you plan to become a teacher as your MySpace blog suggests, I recommend that you learn to mind your manners so that others don't have to do it for you.

WinterPalm

06-13-2007, 09:44 PM

I was actually thinking of trying to organize a tournament based solely on chi projections for the ultra-contact division. Are any of you guys interested in that?

Sidi

06-13-2007, 10:09 PM

I'm not one for Macho ****ing contests, but I can't sit silent on this. Shadow Skill, my name is Chris and we have spoken on the phone and met in person. I was impressed with your soft-spoken, humble demeanor. However airing on a public forum, a private email between my Sifu and yours was a class-less thing to do. There is a lot the different martial art systems can teach each other. This cannot happen when petty bickering takes precedent. If you or your teacher has a problem with Sifu Starr, you should let him know to his face. I don't know everything about my teacher's past, but I do know that he has produced some great fighters and his name commands respect in our local martial arts community. Fifty-one years training and 40-some years teaching deserves some respect. Mind your elders.

:)

YiLiQuan1

06-13-2007, 11:59 PM

I was actually thinking of trying to organize a tournament based solely on chi projections for the ultra-contact division. Are any of you guys interested in that?

Sure! You stand in front of me projecting your qi, and I'll be sure to take you to the ground and RNC you while you channel the energy of the planet... :rolleyes:

I was impressed with your soft-spoken, humble demeanor. However airing on a public forum, a private email between my Sifu and yours was a class-less thing to do.

Some folks don't put a lot of thought into what happens between typing and clicking "submit reply." That, and it's really easy to succumb to the temptation of saying things on the internet that would never be voiced in person. Most people are too cowardly to actually step up and speak their minds, even more are too common and mean to speak freely but do so with some degree of tact. Those kinds of traits are simply no longer taught, reinforced, or even considered these days. The safety of one's keyboard and anonymous screen name provide a measure of protection that sidelines any sense of proper behavior.

I disagree with Sifu regularly. I'm still young, still growing, so some of the things I'm told by my elders gets questioned. I'm lucky enough that Sifu puts up with me and lets me do so without cuffing me on the back of the head. The difference is that when I disagree, I do so with courtesy, tact, and some small degree of respect so he understands it's not a personal issue, I'm not "calling him out," I'm just trying to reach the heart of the matter.

Shadow Skill bypassed all of that for the easy comfort of internet discourse, with no thought of the repercussions. I doubt he thought any Yiliquan folks would find this, I doubt he thought Sifu was a registered member here, and so he likely felt quite safe saying whatever he pleased... Oops. I guess he was wrong.

This cannot happen when petty bickering takes precedent.

Bickering, provinciality, and isolationism are the hallmarks of Chinese martial arts. It's a rare moment when people can set aside their tribal loyalties for the benefit of the community at large. There are some arts, Wing Chun, several Mantis styles, and the internal arts, that are plagued by this more than others... It's almost part of the training - learn a punch, discredit your rival, learn a kick, discredit your rival, etc.

If you or your teacher has a problem with Sifu Starr, you should let him know to his face.

My favorite was how SS talked about "warrior" this and that, implying Sifu was anything but, yet he lacks the conviction, courage, and discipline to speak his mind in person. Typical. I think the "keyboard warrior" title fits rather well here.

Personally, I'm looking forward to coming back to Omaha next year... I'm going to have to make some social calls and meet some folks in person to open a few dialogues...

;)

Shadow Skill

06-14-2007, 07:33 AM

Shadow Skill bypassed all of that for the easy comfort of internet discourse, with no thought of the repercussions. I doubt he thought any Yiliquan folks would find this, I doubt he thought Sifu was a registered member here, and so he likely felt quite safe saying whatever he pleased... Oops. I guess he was wrong.

Ha that's not it at all. I posted on a forum because forums are for discusions, I wanted others opinions on the tournament. as far as Yili people on here hell Star promoted his book on here I figured you people would see. Truth is I was after others opinion and if you have 2cents feel free to add them. thats what a forum is for.

sleepingfist

06-14-2007, 07:42 AM

WinterPalm

06-14-2007, 07:53 AM

Sure! You stand in front of me projecting your qi, and I'll be sure to take you to the ground and RNC you while you channel the energy of the planet... :rolleyes:.

;)

Bwahahahahaha...you really think that crap works against the true projections of chi that emanate from my soul?! You fool!
Yeah, you try that "RNC" when you have no arms! Bwahahaha!:mad:

Shadow Skill

06-14-2007, 07:57 AM

"I'm looking at an event like one of the events used by Master Nishiyama in his Internat'l Traditional Karate Assn. It's freestyle one-step"

"Like Yiliquan 1 says, we use "jacket contact" in competition. That usually ends with some contact being made."

Now is it freestyle one step, or is Jacket contact. or are they the same thing?

lkfmdc

06-14-2007, 08:00 AM

To me, if two genuine martial arts people (who possess real skill) don lightweight gloves and have at it, one or both of them should end up crippled or dead.

Sadly, I'm old enough to remember how the traditional martial arts world went nuts over "kickboxing" (then called full contact karate). You HAD to pull the techniques because if you didn't, someone was gonna die!!!!! Well, after Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny the Jet, Don Wilson all did their thing people realized that reverse punches don't make heads explode and side kicks don't rupture internal organs

Dear lord, this is 2007, we've had full contact karate, we moved on to Thai boxing, then the early bare knuckle UFC's, now we're living in the modern MMA era....

It's sad to see that some people don't move forward....

P. Starr

06-14-2007, 11:03 AM

Heads can get hurt very badly if you don't wear padded mittens and your technique is correct.

Clearly, Freestyle One-Step isn't very well known - jacket contact can very easily be used with this form of practice fighting. The difference between this and regular sparring could be likened to playing billiards - in one case you call your shots and everything has to be just so and in the other case you just smack the ball and hope for the best.

It's an old practice method that's being applied in a new, innovative way and I'd like to look into it.

I'm not going to get into a arguement about the legitimacy of "full contact" (which it isn't) or any of that business. I practice traditional martial arts and I'm not in favor of slapping on pads, reverting to sloppy boxing techniques and calling it martial art.

lkfmdc

06-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Heads can get hurt very badly if you don't wear padded mittens and your technique is correct.

Seriously, you need to get out more. Early MMA fights were no head gear and no gloves and people were hitting to injure. It's a lot harder to hurt someone that traditional martial arts would lead you be believe.....

Heads "can" get hurt, doesn't mean they will..... most full contact matches, regardless of whether they are Thai, San Da, boxing, kickboxing or MMA do not end in KO's....

I'm not going to get into a arguement about the legitimacy of "full contact" (which it isn't) or any of that business. I practice traditional martial arts and I'm not in favor of slapping on pads, reverting to sloppy boxing techniques and calling it martial art.

Statements like that make you seem very silly and uninformed. You don't think they are going full contact? You need to leave the cave and get some freash air. In Muay Thai, San Da, kickboxing, boxing and MMA believe me, people are hitting as hard as they can with the express idea of trying to do as much damage as possible

There are people doing full contact sports who have extremely skilled techniques, people who would WRECK YOU.... fine, you want to call yourself a "martial artist" and denegrate anyone doing full contact as "sloppy" but all you're really doing is showing how little you have been exposed to what is out there and how ininformed your comments are

Shaolinlueb

06-14-2007, 11:15 AM

im not going to read this letter because

1. its between your sifu and the other guy

2. the guy is throwing his tournament and he can run it however the way he wants. i have been to all form tournaments because of insurance and risk factors.

P. Starr

06-14-2007, 12:44 PM

Yep - saw the early MMA bouts. No technique. Saw one fellow get the other on the ground and hit him repeatedly in the back of the head with his elbow. No damage done. Huh. I'd say that's pretty sorry technique. I've had senior students accidentally crack each other in the back of the head with an elbow and cause unconsciousness. This guy couldn't do it with his opponent laying face down.

I say that if people really want to do FULL contact and find out what works and what doesn't, take off the protective gear.

To think that our martial arts ancestors (of which your own teacher is one) would utilize techniques that didn't really work is ludicrous...

If you keep missing the target it doesn't mean that you have a faulty rifle. You probably need to learn how to shoot.

Enough said. I've been in these MMA vs. traditional martial arts arguements before and they cannot be resolved. I do it my way, you do it yours and that's fine. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Good luck with your martial arts training. Please extend my best wishes to Sifu Chan's students.

lkfmdc

06-14-2007, 12:51 PM

So let me get this straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51RnDMeFYsI

you don't think these guys are going at it full contact :rolleyes:

Even is we call them sloppy (Vanderlei is a little sloppy), how do you think you'd do against either one? How about your students?

Sidi

06-14-2007, 03:44 PM

Chris... Chris who the same Chris who came to our class and couldn't do 10 regular push-ups, Same Chris who gave up and left class early, Same Chris who didn't come back because our exercises alone were too physical. Same Chris? Respect your elders. your rank is what. DO MORE THEN 10 PUSH-UPS IN A ROW THEN TALK.

Wrong Chris dude! I watched one of Sifu Young's classes last Fall before I left my former Wing Chun school. Deal with the real issue at hand. I liked the people I met at the SPM school and let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

:)

P. Starr

06-14-2007, 03:51 PM

I was unaware that one had to be able to do a given number of push-ups before one's opinion meant anything...! How times change...

YiLiQuan1

06-14-2007, 05:27 PM

I was unaware that one had to be able to do a given number of push-ups before one's opinion meant anything...! How times change...

I should make doing no less than 20 snatches with my 53lb kettlebell a prerequisite to training...

Ten push ups... please! :rolleyes:

YiLiQuan1

06-14-2007, 05:52 PM

So let me get this straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51RnDMeFYsI

you don't think these guys are going at it full contact :rolleyes:

Nah... A couple of qi blasters if ever I saw them... :D

Even is we call them sloppy (Vanderlei is a little sloppy), how do you think you'd do against either one? How about your students?

My take on it is this -

We practice for perfect technique because in the "heat of battle" a combination of blood pressure and adrenaline are going to make all but the most deeply ingrained muscle movements sloppy, ill-timed, and grossly exaggerated. The closer to perfection we are in the training hall, the less craptacular our techniques will be in a "real" encounter. The sloppiness exhibited in the MMA fights I've watched (and I watch as many as I can) stems, I believe, from a lowered standard of performance. Do they still hit hard? You bet. Can they still knock you out? Sure. Not the point. The point is that that reduced standard eventually becomes the accepted standard, because non-professional fighters will cite such examples as sufficient for their use. If a reduced standard then becomes the goal, what then will the accepted standard become? It's a downward spiral...

Comparing amateur students against trained, conditioned, professional fighters is an unfair comparison to make. Could I take them? Sure! :D Okay, maybe I'd need a year in the gym 12 hours a day every day before I'd be ready, and maybe surgery on at least one knee and one shoulder would be a huge help, but maybe... That and qi blasts... ;) :D

But this brings me to another theory of mine - none of this stuff was ever intended to be used against other, well-trained, fighters. The superiority of a martial artist's training stems from his comparison against untrained, unconditioned, non-fighters. A single swordsman taking out 6 or more poorly trained ruffians makes for a mythic battle. A single swordsman against 6 well-trained, experienced swordsmen is going to die a horrible, painful death. When I did multiple opponent drills in Army Combatives, it is made painfully obvious that multiple person engagements are a whole other animal when there are literally very few rules in place... When you pit two essentially equal fighters against each other, you're going to have a mess. Take a look at MMA fights where one fighter clearly outclasses the other... To steal a term, you get "total ownage."

So.

Is there a place for full contact MMA fights? You bet. They are the gladiatorial arena of our era in which the myths of what does and does not work are dispelled... to a degree. Are they constrained by limiting rules sets? Sure! Unless you want, and sanction, fights to the death (which will never happen... who's going to want to fight in those?), there will always have to be rules that limit fighters for their mutual safety. But even with those rules, techniques are tested at full speed, with full contact, and little "pulling" of punches to be seen anywhere. It's as real as it gets short of throwing some folks in the Arena along with Christians and lions...

Is there a place for less than full-contact fights? You bet. The reinforcement of standards, especially for those either not inclined toward or incapable of competing in full contact fights, is very valuable. The professionals comprise the very top layer of fighters. For every one "big name" how many wannabe amateurs are there who will never, ever have a "real" fight? Plenty. So having some sort of venue within which standards can still be tested to some level and reinforced still possesses value. It's not "real," but it's closer than nothing at all.

The trick, I think, is not mistaking one for the other, and not devaluing one in favor of another.

Musashi said "to know one weapon to the exclusion of all others is just as bad as not knowing one sufficiently well." In this instance, I take that to mean "look deeply into each single thing to determine its value relative to other things." When I practice shooting, I don't always have rounds loaded... Sometimes I just practice my aim, practice my hold, practice my breathing. Other times, I shoot, shoot, shoot, until all the targets are down, regardless of how much ammo I use. Both methods have their place.

Just my take on things. What do I know...? :rolleyes:

djcaldwell

06-14-2007, 06:17 PM

But this brings me to another theory of mine - none of this stuff was ever intended to be used against other, well-trained, fighters. The superiority of a martial artist's training stems from his comparison against untrained, unconditioned, non-fighters

I realize you did say that this was just your theory - but seriously?! This is just a ridiculous statement. Back in the day they trained for real because they fought on a regular basis - with other "fighters" for their lives. Be it to defend family, propriety or just to prove who's family's style was the best.

Systems changed and grew BECAUSE they fought other "fighters" and perhaps lost or saw something durring their fight that they felt they liked and so augmented their system to include or defend against it. Military doesn't train to fight civilians - they train to fight other military forces (and don't go and say the fight guerilla's who stem from civilian forces). On the same token - fighters don't train to fight untrained people - they train to fight other fighters. Otherwise you're not a fighter - you're just a bully.