Wing Chun Stance Problems

[fook]

Hello,

I've been doing wing chun for just over a year and I've had problems with the stance from the very start. We open our stance as usual, feet together, lean forward, bend knees, toes out then heels out.

The problem is that I cannot lower very much.Other students in my class can lower until their knees are almost touching.

When I try I feel pressure in my hips, literally in the hip sockets, it feels like the joints have reached their limit and I suspect no amount of stretching will overcome that.

It's becoming a problem because recently we've started to train chi sau with more forward pressure and as I find it difficult to lower I lose my balance.

Obviously in a real situation I could take a step back, in fact when I watch clips on you tube I never see wing chun fighters in this stance.

Is it really essential for my feet to be turned in?

[YungChun]

Is it really essential for my feet to be turned in?

No. Try adjusting the position here and there until you feel comfortable enough to perform as needed..

But you should also discuss this with your teacher...

[AmanuJRY]

The problem is that I cannot lower very much.Other students in my class can lower until their knees are almost touching.

When I try I feel pressure in my hips, literally in the hip sockets, it feels like the joints have reached their limit and I suspect no amount of stretching will overcome that.

Nonsense, stretching should remedy this...unless you have some physical deformity. Conditioning and flexibility are nessisary. Try some Yoga.;)


It's becoming a problem because recently we've started to train chi sau with more forward pressure and as I find it difficult to lower I lose my balance.

Obviously in a real situation I could take a step back, in fact when I watch clips on you tube I never see wing chun fighters in this stance.?

Of course. Motion is common, if you need to step to maintain balance by all means, step.


Is it really essential for my feet to be turned in?

Not really. I haven't discovered anything that makes them essential, other than the development of adductor muscles and that it tends to 'force' people to bend their knees slightly.

[OdderMensch]

Not really. I haven't discovered anything that makes them essential, other than the development of adductor muscles and that it tends to 'force' people to bend their knees slightly.

I've always thought both of those reasons were enough to make me want my toes turned in. If you are devolving your adductor muscles then it reasons that you are using them, leading to a stronger stance.

And "forcing" the knees a little (to bend, not strain or twist) should help protect then in case of sudden movement. Also it puts my tender shins in a slightly less vulnerable position.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fook View Post
The problem is that I cannot lower very much.Other students in my class can lower until their knees are almost touching.

When I try I feel pressure in my hips, literally in the hip sockets, it feels like the joints have reached their limit and I suspect no amount of stretching will overcome that.
Nonsense, stretching should remedy this...unless you have some physical deformity. Conditioning and flexibility are nessisary. Try some Yoga.

I both agree and disagree with this. I was once told by someone with some knowledge that "maybe I just couldn't" touch my toes when I was younger. Years of Kung Fu training later and I found this to be incorrect. Stretching is essential!

What i disagree with is that it its the primary cause of discomfort in this case. Your stance should not 'look' like your seniors, it should 'work" like it.

in closing......



Is it really essential for my feet to be turned in?

Yes it is. It is not essential the knees touch. It is essential that both feet, knees and hip align properly to ensure balance and stability while needed, and movement when required. If your not rooting, its not a stance.

[AmanuJRY]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by essential.;)

I trained for years to keep the feet toed in (and still believe this to be a good teaching platform), in application, you're constantly moving (or should be) and therefore it's irrelevant as long as you can move and remain balanced.

[jooerduo]

Hi Fook,

what did your teacher say when you asked him/her?

I don't think you should think about "lowering", think about the knee kneeling instead. Don't lower at the knee, lower using the mind, past the opponent.

the stance is a power generation stance used during training only, fighting stance is any stance that fights occur in. at this point in your training you should still try to stay in your "toe in" stance.

you can control your stance using your kua area to ground yourself, don't fixate at the feet.

ask your seniors or teacher to see how they would deal with your issues

[anerlich]

I've always thought both of those reasons were enough to make me want my toes turned in. If you are devolving your adductor muscles then it reasons that you are using them, leading to a stronger stance.


IMO the parallel foot stance, as used in TWC and some other variants, works the adductors more.

The toes in stance works the quads more than the adductors.

Adductors adduct, not "devolve" or rotate.


The problem is that I cannot lower very much.Other students in my class can lower until their knees are almost touching.


I use the parallel foot stance, though rarely. My academy usually try to work out of 50/50 one foot forward stances, for forms, chi sao, everything. It is highly debatable that the position you are describing will develop any useful attributes for fighting, and indeed whether if you force it, it may not be counterproductive or injurious. WC's meant to be for all ages, and if it precludes old people with inflexible hips, then it ain't. This stance should feel natural, not forced, and you should be able to move out of it, not lock yourself to the spot.

If you need to develop your legs and hips for fuctional use, do squats, deadlifts, and plyos. They work much quicker and more effectively.

[AndrewS]

AndrewN writes:


Adductors adduct, not "devolve" or rotate.

The adductors also function as hip extensors and come more into play in wide stance squats and sumo deadlifts.

Personally, I think of the 'toe in stance' as more of a way to push the hips forward. Internal rotation actually puts the adductors in a shortened (and potentially stronger) position, anterior pelvic motion (from hip extention, which has an abduction component) takes some play out of them, using that length.

IMO, the internally rotated stance potentiates activation of trunk stabilizers, which in combination with moving the acetabulum slightly anterior to the femoral head (for really anterior think the back leg of a bow and arrow stance) allow force to be translated through the hips and L-spine/trunk to and from the limbs.

As to the original poster- the positions are less important than the skills. If you're larger sized, very strict (1fist between the knees) internally rotated stance may be uncomfortable and put you in a compromised position.

Andrew

[jack]

Hello,

I've been doing wing chun for just over a year and I've had problems with the stance from the very start. We open our stance as usual, feet together, lean forward, bend knees, toes out then heels out.

The problem is that I cannot lower very much.Other students in my class can lower until their knees are almost touching.

When I try I feel pressure in my hips, literally in the hip sockets, it feels like the joints have reached their limit and I suspect no amount of stretching will overcome that.

It's becoming a problem because recently we've started to train chi sau with more forward pressure and as I find it difficult to lower I lose my balance.

Obviously in a real situation I could take a step back, in fact when I watch clips on you tube I never see wing chun fighters in this stance.

Is it really essential for my feet to be turned in?

One good way to find out the wing chun stance is - use it when you are on the bus,train etc.

Dont forget what Yung Chun had told you "Try adjusting the position here and there until you feel comfortable enough to perform as needed.. "

I dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.

[AndrewS]

Jack writes:


I dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.

Heavy pressure chi sao using the stance is probably one of the most useful ways to do chi sao for teaching purposes once basic mechanics are learned, and is an excellent developmental tool used in combination with very light chi sao, long bridge chi sao, and other variations done for development of certain attributes. It can be used as a hothouse to develop optimal body use and can be a great part of a clinch game, and can be used as a conditioning tool for that part of yor game (and other purposes as well). Heavy pressure is most about the clinch and learning structure and force.

Andrew

[jack]

Nice theory but….I still dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.
Imagine 2 persons train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance & one is more muscular than the other one. The weaker one will has to put in more strength to defense himself & even more strength to attack his opponent. Soon he will become tired.
Even if both of them are about the size, you will still get tired after some time.
Maybe that is why JKT don’t really go for chi sau?:)

[AmanuJRY]

Nice theory but….I still dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.
Imagine 2 persons train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance & one is more muscular than the other one. The weaker one will has to put in more strength to defense himself & even more strength to attack his opponent. Soon he will become tired.
Even if both of them are about the size, you will still get tired after some time.
Maybe that is why JKT don’t really go for chi sau?:)

Isn't getting tired a sign that you are developing muscle tone?:confused:

I agree with AndrewS. Varying the intensity and focus of chi sau session to target different attributes is a good idea.

...Oh, and the stronger one should be taught to only push his partner enough to help him train, anything else is disruptive to the learning.;)

[AndrewS]

Jack writes:


Nice theory but….I still dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.


My experience in both learning and coaching is otherwise. Heavy pressure chi sao is a useful training tool I have seen utilized by all WT people I know with significant skill, is nearly a defining characteristic of certain WSL lines, and is used in YKS/SN line to good effect. Additionally I have seen mutual pressure drills using the characteristic body mechanics of a style advocated by excellent teachers of taiji (Chen), Xing Yi, escrima, and greco-roman wrestling as a sport-specific conditioning drill.


Imagine 2 persons train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance & one is more muscular than the other one. The weaker one will has to put in more strength to defense himself & even more strength to attack his opponent. Soon he will become tired.
Even if both of them are about the size, you will still get tired after some time.

Your point? Extremely light pressure chi sao can be remarkably fatiguing too, as can long bridge. So? You think skill comes without work? Are you arguing that Wing Chun is not a physical activity? If so, please go get in an argument with Terence, I'm sort of busy right now.

Andrew

[anerlich]

magine 2 persons train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance & one is more muscular than the other one. The weaker one will has to put in more strength to defense himself & even more strength to attack his opponent. Soon he will become tired. Even if both of them are about the size, you will still get tired after some time.

The idea is to use the structure of the stance to exert the forward pressure, rather than the musculature. But, jeez, you mean the weaker or smaller guy is probably going to get tired before the bigger/stronger one? And if two guys of equal size are training hard, they will eventually get tired? Sort of like what will happen if they spar or fight?

WOW. You, my friend, are a real rocket scientist.


Maybe that is why JKT don’t really go for chi sau?

Maybe that's why I've never heard of JKT? Or do you mean JKD?

AS with Andrew and the others, I agree heavy forward pressure on occasion is a great tool for finding *****s in your chi sao armour, and developing strength in your bridges.

Andrew, appreciate the precise explanation of your impressions of the toes-in stance.

[anerlich]

finding *****s in your chi sao armour

LOL at the site's censorship above.

[jooerduo]

Jack writes:


Quote:
Nice theory but….I still dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.




if you are talking about the force against force clashing type of chi sau then its not a good idea, as you often see 2 people practically leaning against each other going *directly* forward and losing their structures

what you want is to use and modify your dynamic structures to overcome the opponent using angles or other more internal methods

[jack]

Jack writes:


Quote:
if you are talking about the force against force clashing type of chi sau then its not a good idea, as you often see 2 people practically leaning against each other going *directly* forward and losing their structures

what you want is to use and modify your dynamic structures to overcome the opponent using angles or other more internal methods

That is quite close to what i am trying to say. Thanks.

[fook]

One good way to find out the wing chun stance is - use it when you are on the bus,train etc.

Dont forget what Yung Chun had told you "Try adjusting the position here and there until you feel comfortable enough to perform as needed.. "

I dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Jack, I actually do try this on the train home, there are never any seats! It definitely helps to get the heel out and lower even a fraction when the train stops which is kind of equivalent to a push or a shove.

My sifu says that the lowering will come with time,practice and stretching but It really feels as if the bones have hit their limits rather than the ligaments being tight. My stance is definitely better than when I first started but I feel like the extra rotation is coming mainly from my ankles and knees. I'll keep on with the stretching I guess.

I see the ChiSau with forward pressure thing got a lot of responses. To clarify, the way our teacher is training us is that when we feel too much force and we are about to step back we go for a pull/attack.

I'm finding it very hard at the mo as I nearly always end up stepping back as I pull and it turns into a mess. If I try to lower I just end up with the other guys force pushing me back and I can feel myself bending at the lower back.

I'm rambling on, thanks anyhow. Your replies have been reassuring.

Thanks

[YungChun]

Nice theory but….I still dont think it is right to train chi sau using more forward pressure with the stance.


This is called "chung chee" or 'heavy sticking'.. The purpose is to supplement leveraged positional advantage with body power and body alignment... :cool:

[JPinAZ]

"We open our stance as usual, feet together, lean forward, bend knees, toes out then heels out."

Fook, what do you mean by 'lean forward'? If you are breaking your hip alignment, this may be part of the problem. How do you align/angle the hips - what is your focus when setting into your YJKYM stance?
Also, how far are you bending your knees?

[jack]

Do you have any kind of ankles, knees or waist injuries before? Maybe chiropractic can help to extent your bones & ligaments limitation. Just a wild guess.:D

Do you learn Escrima/kali? They had comparable “ChiSau” training too but it has more flexibility training. You can find them on youtube.:)

[fook]

When we open our stance we start with our feet together then lean forward until our weight is on our toes.THen we bend our knees, how much?

Not sure, not much really, about 110 degrees?

I've never injured my legs badly though my right knee does tend to ache if I stay in stance for a long time.

We do have escrima lessons but I haven't been to any, there mucho mucho expensive!! Eventually I'll give it a go, it looks like good fun.

[JPinAZ]

Do you keep leaning forward like this, even after your stance is open?
Some problems I would think that would contribute to you not keeping root is having the hips angled back (if leaning forward), as well as possibly having the knees bent TOO much.

The way I see it, if the tailbone is not 'tucked' forward you will have problems with root, as can happen if leaning forward. . Also, if the knees extend past the toes, you will get rooting issues.

Just some thoughts.

Jonathan

[jack]

I don’t think wing chun stance & chi sau are that important.
Maybe that is why you never saw any wing chun fighters in this stance when watching clips on you tube.

Chi sau is advertised to be an good sensibility training method but… Did you saw any K1, UFC fighters use chi sau in the ring? I guess not.:p