Sparring clip

[Big Vern]

Guys.

Sparring clip from the Autodefence Wing Tchun Fight Team, Godalming Gym, England.
Emphasis on control and mobility.
http://youtube.com:80/watch?v=o0f0fFM8HIw

Cheers.
BV.
:D

[YungChun]

Where's the close range moves? Exactly what WCK seems to specialize in seems to be missing from these exchanges...

[Ultimatewingchun]

I saw wing chun principles from the big baldheaded guy with the black tee shirt and the black shorts...although he didn't CLOSE into the opponent as often as he could have or should have, imo. He could have followed some of his moves up with some serious LINE OCCUPATION and forward pressure, multiple vertical fist striking, and with some simultaneous pak, lop, gum sao, etc. - possibly even some knee strikes...if he wanted to push it - assuming he's been trained to use those moves in the ways I'm thinking about it.

Then again, that would require some real head/face shots going down - and maybe that wasn't part of what they all agreed to, I don't know.

Anyway, that guy looked like he knew what he was doing - and with wing chun principles behind him.

[YungChun]

IMO closing the gap and bringing the attack into close range is an essential and integral part of what WCK is all about..

Victor you have mentioned time and again how WCK's techs are 99% about inside fighting and yet here do we see inside work, or even the intent to get there?

At one point when the range closes we see not WCK inside work but a 'reverse body lock..'

To me, what makes WCK work, when it does, is in part about taking the attack into a range that is unfamiliar or less familiar to the opponent...

If we indeed fight the way we train then again to me, we need to train taking the fight to the inside.. To do otherwise is to train *to do* otherwise..

Perhaps not the best example but here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo

We see closing and attacking...

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's the longer range delivery system to the inside that I've been talking about (ie.- kind of like a boxing platform frame and footwork)...and then actually staying there while squaring up the shoulders so that your centerline faces his COM while pressuring forward - while putting the wing chun hands to work - that's the key.

He was using some wing chun principles from the outside longer range but he didn't follow up with the payload once he started to gain ground. That was my point.

[Mortal1]

Looks like a fun school to train at. Some decent stuff. I did notice one major thing. They never seemed to punch and use the ground. Like rooted not floating. I know it is light sparring but the punches lacked power even if they were to hit. I think they should spar with more speed and structure. You could always pull a punch. That doesn't mean it should be thrown without intent.

[t_niehoff]

Leaving aside the question of "where is the WCK?", where is the sparring?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lb-CDEoPaE

Notice the training partners are really trying to hit one another? That's what makes it sparring.

[tbone]

Leaving aside the question of "where is the WCK?", where is the sparring?Got any video of you sparring so we can see how it's done properly?

[t_niehoff]

Got any video of you sparring so we can see how it's done properly?


Why do you care how I do it? If you want to see it done "properly", just look at how good fighters do it.

[stricker]

thanks for putting the clip up, especially in front of the all the armchair critics...

i notice you're called the 'fight team' are your guys planning on competing at all?

[Jeff Bussey]

Here's one that might be the best explanation for fighting yet

Right T?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5DnxxqiiZo

J

[YungChun]

Thanks for that!

More quality instruction here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44FjU6ho4sI

[Matrix]

Hey Big Vern,

I enjoyed the clip in spite of some of the negative commentary that followed.

[Edmund]

Why do you care how I do it? If you want to see it done "properly", just look at how good fighters do it.

Err, because you are putting them down. You directly criticised these guys.
Obviously you think you are better then them so you should back it up.

If you think you can't show them up, then don't throw stones from the glasshouse.

[YungChun]

When folks post videos here...

Other folks are going to have an opinion on the training shown. Posting the clip opens the door and invites comments--what others here think is good, bad or indifferent about it. Despite the fact that 'feelings may be hurt' this is how people can learn, debate, share ideas and discuss training methods..

IMO posting criticisms/opinions on training shown in videos is totally valid and appropriate so long as there are no personal attacks used...

In my comments I am posing my concerns re: said training methods and have no intention to disparage, insult others or otherwise be a weenie..

[Liddel]

I agree with YungChun on the VT close range fighting point.

First off id like to say, good to see some sparring going on and mixing it up.

My only criticism of the action seen is that the biggest VT principal (IMO) is missing from each guys game.

Whats that ? Elbow position.

You guys all have flying elbow. The elbows especially in Boxing with big gloves are an invaluable tool for blocking and covering.

I see elbows outside the body and only wrist and palms used for blocking parrying.

Tightening up your elbows will give you a good solid guard for straight and round punches to the head or to the body.

Tightening in two ways -
1) being a little more inside your body width.
2) Closer to your own body mass rather that reaching out for a block.

Big Vern - cheers for sharing mate - keep it up.
Seeing fun sparring like that makes me wanna glove up, but im at work :(

[Edmund]

If we indeed fight the way we train then again to me, we need to train taking the fight to the inside.. To do otherwise is to train *to do* otherwise..


I think it's actually better to train at the range those guys are training.

A lot of WC people who don't actually find it hard to spar against other striking styles. Because they don't have the mobility and coordination to attack and defend at that range, they can't get their WC to work. They're used to just training in close against another WC person. They're usually weak at long range and more capable at short range.

They can't extrapolate their angles and lines to a longer range if they never train a bit further apart with someone who isn't coming in. And at the longer range, the kick is the stronger weapon. The lower body is the more vulnerable target.

The range will eventually close up anyway. It's the nature of fighting. But often when you try run in too hard, you can run into a counterattack or end up jamming yourself. A little bit of patience and some long range skills make a much more dangerous fighter.

As you said, they did clinch and body lock one time. That's a real technique. It's could *very* likely happen in a real fight. So why shouldn't you train using it?



In my comments I am posing my concerns re: said training methods and have no intention to disparage, insult others or otherwise be a weenie..

Understood.

I think saying "Where is the sparring?" is a lot more disparaging than "Where is the close range moves?".

[anerlich]

Props for publishing.

Ignore the armchair critics.

[Matrix]

I think saying "Where is the sparring?" is a lot more disparaging than "Where is the close range moves?".Ed, I think that is the crux of the matter. Terence has a very narrow view of the world, IMO. So even if you do "spar" you need to meet his criterion in that area as well. I have no problem with having high standards, we all should. I would just like to see the commentary be a little more balanced. Liddel seems to have the right idea from what where I'm sitting.

[wiz cool c]

I liked that a lot. If people keep training like this kung fu will start to get some respect. Anyone saying there is something wrong with it show your clips and lets compare.

They had good kicks and good defense with the hands. Probably didn't get up close because it's Wing Chung vs Wing Chung and they don't want to get their face smashed up. Where if they where going against another style they could crowd them and go to work with fist and elbos.

[Mortal1]

I didn't say they sucked. Or that I was any better. Just pointed out something I noticed for conversation. No harm no foul. I give them credit for training. I appreciated the clip.

[YungChun]

I think it's actually better to train at the range those guys are training.

That's cool, personally, I do not believe in 'static range' training per se.. Because IMO it's not realistic and doesn't address the needed skill-set, entering. I do believe in training to enter <control> and finish--whatever the level of contact.. And also IMO without training the entry and staying 'at range' may actually inhibit folks from developing the proper response of entering when the schit hits the fan because under stress science shows us that the primal brain regurgitates what it has trained...

[Knifefighter]

That clip wasn't bad, as far as it goes. That type of sparring is a great way to train your foot work, distancing, timing, etc. when you don't feel like taking it too each other too hard.

The glaring problem I see is that there are no power shots. There was not one strike in those sessions that would have resulted in significant damage. Even if there is not full contact, leaving out power shots is your sparring is just teaching you to hit only with the non-damaging set-up shots.

There is a reason that boxers always include crosses, hooks and uppercuts, even when they are going light. These are the blows that cause the most damage and are most likely to be fight finishers. Leaving these types of strikes out develops an unrealistic expectation of what fighting will be like.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing about sparring is that, if you don't put enough power in your strikes to at least get a reaction from your partner, everything will be out of context.
Combos will be artificial and will not play out the same as they do with real power being present.
Timing will be different, endurance, footwork, head work , etc.

You don't have to go "damage hard", but at least hard enough to make him/her react in the correct way.

[t_niehoff]

Err, because you are putting them down. You directly criticised these guys.
Obviously you think you are better then them so you should back it up.

If you think you can't show them up, then don't throw stones from the glasshouse.

Where does this notion come from that when someone puts up some clip of themselves on the net that they should be immune from criticism? If they don't want criticism, then don't put up clips.

You don't need to be "better" than they are to see that's not sparring; it's some sort of playfighting. I also don't know where you got th notion that I am claimiong to be better than they are -- I've never claimed to be" better than them" - or anyone for that matter. I said "where is the sparring?" and that in sparring people really try to hit one another. If you disagree, then disagree and explain why you beleive in sparring people don't need to really try to hit one another.

[t_niehoff]

The thing about sparring is that, if you don't put enough power in your strikes to at least get a reaction from your partner, everything will be out of context.


This is exactly right. Without enough power (really trying to hit your opponent), it changes the game and you're doing something other than (practice) fighting. For one example, the one guy kept kicking his opponent's lead leg, over and over almost in slo mo, and his opponent did nothing to deal with it (because it didn't *hurt*). One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the "kicker" to change what he was doing. The game would change.

[YungChun]

One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the "kicker" to change what he was doing. The game would change.

OMG... I agree with Terrence.. :eek:


And in order to make that kind of contact with strikes, with or without WCK you will also need to close into 'kill range' which is closer than 'touch me kill me' range..

[Knifefighter]

This is exactly right. Without enough power (really trying to hit your opponent), it changes the game and you're doing something other than (practice) fighting. For one example, the one guy kept kicking his opponent's lead leg, over and over almost in slo mo, and his opponent did nothing to deal with it (because it didn't *hurt*). One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the "kicker" to change what he was doing. The game would change.

Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren't involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren't involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.

Context is everything, most of what you mention is applicable to SPORT BJJ, which has no striking.
I don't know of any BJJ instructors that, when teaching BJJ in the context of VT/MMA DON'T change what they teach.

The GNP as it is now has made working from the guard and such totally different than it was even 5 years ago, much less 10.

[Knifefighter]

Context is everything, most of what you mention is applicable to SPORT BJJ, which has no striking.
I don't know of any BJJ instructors that, when teaching BJJ in the context of VT/MMA DON'T change what they teach..

Many BJJ programs that focus on striking still don't strike full contact on the ground. They only do slaps, which is just as bad as sparring standing with only light contact.



The GNP as it is now has made working from the guard and such totally different than it was even 5 years ago, much less 10.

Part of that is the rules and part of it is that the top G&P game has evolved more than the guard has evolved to deal with it. That may or may not change in the future. Bravo's rubber guard is an interesting closed guard take on dealing with G&P and you may see some interesting open guard variations popping up soon also.

[t_niehoff]

Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren't involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.

That's very true -- but I think what is going on in BJJ is that the *focus* is on developing grappling skills, which is achieved by eliminating stiking. So, for example, while I can punch my way out of the closed guard (which is a viable thing to do in fighting), doing so will inhibit development of my grappling abilities -- developing a feel for leverage, control, weight transfer, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's very true -- but I think what is going on in BJJ is that the *focus* is on developing grappling skills, which is achieved by eliminating stiking. So, for example, while I can punch my way out of the closed guard (which is a viable thing to do in fighting), doing so will inhibit development of my grappling abilities -- developing a feel for leverage, control, weight transfer, etc.

Which has both pros and cons...like everything else.

[t_niehoff]

Which has both pros and cons...like everything else.

Exactly. :)

[Big Vern]

Sparring is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called "verbal sparring".

The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.

The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.

Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.

The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one's hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.

[t_niehoff]

A simpler way to look at it is that sparring is practice using your martial art, whatever it is, in a fighting environment. Because the only way to learn and develop skill using your martial art in a fighting (realistic) environment is by practicing in one. So, no fighting environment, no sparring. In stand up: not really trying to hit one another = not a fighting environment = not sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sparring is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called "verbal sparring".

The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.

The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.

Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.

The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one's hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.

great for beginners and then?

[Edmund]

Where does this notion come from that when someone puts up some clip of themselves on the net that they should be immune from criticism? If they don't want criticism, then don't put up clips.


There's a difference between making a criticism and making a disparaging remark.

You obviously think you are better than them if you disparage their clip by saying "Where is the sparring?".





You don't need to be "better" than they are to see that's not sparring; it's some sort of playfighting. I also don't know where you got th notion that I am claimiong to be better than they are -- I've never claimed to be" better than them" - or anyone for that matter. I said "where is the sparring?" and that in sparring people really try to hit one another. If you disagree, then disagree and explain why you beleive in sparring people don't need to really try to hit one another.

They connected.
Your clip had guys with 16oz gloves and headgear.

If you go too hard without gear you run the risk of injury. If you KO your sparring partner, then you can't train with them.

Guys who spar every day use more control and less contact. You hit hard with pad holders.

Watch how the real guys do it at around the 3:00 mark:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UUtm-DLJzgo&mode=related&search=

Compare that to how they work with pad holders.

They are pro fighters. The good ones that you said do it the proper way.

[Knifefighter]

Guys who spar every day use more control and less contact. You hit hard with pad holders.
Watch how the real guys do it at around the 3:00 mark:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UUtm-DLJzgo&mode=related&search=
Compare that to how they work with pad holders.

It's not the fact that they spar every day that is the reason for them to go lighter, but the fact that they compete every couple of weeks.

Going light with each other allows them to recover from their competitions.

Going heavy on the pads allows them to go heavy without sustaining injuries between competitions.

[Edmund]

It's not the fact that they spar every day that is the reason for them to go lighter, but the fact that they compete every couple of weeks.

Going light with each other allows them to recover from their competitions.

Going heavy on the pads allows them to go heavy without sustaining injuries between competitions.

The champs don't fight quite so often a lot of the times. Every couple of months maybe. They have the bigger matches where a lot more is on the line.

They're still human. They don't recover from comp injuries in a week.

And they know that injuring yourself while PRACTICING how to fight is a bad idea.

Feel free to deck each other in sparring though. You learn so much when either you or your sparring partner are sidelined for the rest of a training session because of a KO.

[anerlich]

There is no fighter alive, elite MMAer or otherwise, that can afford getting concussed more than he or she absolutely has to.

You can't toughen the brain. Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest of modern times, but he's living proof.

My instructor's father died as a result of concussion from an attempted mugging just outside his hotel. He got up, dusted himself off, went into the hotel, went to bed and never woke up.

If you're getting continually KO'ed, you are a moron or will very soon become one as your brain cells get killed off.

Cracked ribs don't exactly make for a productive training experience either.

Criticising the guys in the vid because they aren't trying to take each other's heads off is like watching a clip of two BJJers going light or practising their mobile games and then criticising them for not engaging properly. You're looking at one aspect of thier practice and assuming it is all like that.

[wiz cool c]

I think MMA has started a new fad. Everyone is jumping on the banwagon. If you don't do full contact it's useless. When ninjutsu was big if you didn't know how to use a knife and climb a tree you weren't a real warrior.

I think these guy are learning a lot from this training. They moved well. They had good defense quick hands and good kicks. These guys I'm sure have day jobs they can't go at it ufc style all the time. Come into work with cuts and black eyes.

I think these guys could handle a street fighter or kung fu who isn't sparring regularly. I think they could also hang with that guys boxing clip put up here if they can use kick and traps and stuff.

If they want to do a mma fight they should probably increase the intensity of their training.

I also find it hard to believe that all these people talking about full contact are doing it. Let everyone who's talking put up a clip of your sparring. I have already .

[unkokusai]

Guys.

Sparring clip from the Autodefence Wing Tchun Fight Team, Godalming Gym, England.
Emphasis on control and mobility.
http://youtube.com:80/watch?v=o0f0fFM8HIw

Cheers.
BV.
:D



Ok, that was not exactly brimming over with realism. I hope that was just a light warm-up or something and not intended to be taken as actual 'sparring.'

[unkokusai]

Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest of modern times, but he's living proof.



Of what? That a disease can strike even the greatest of athletes?

[Knifefighter]

You can't toughen the brain. Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest of modern times, but he's living proof..

Yeah, it's not like people who have never done combative sports or have never taken hard blows to the head ever get Parkinson's or anything.

[YungChun]

Criticising the guys in the vid because they aren't trying to take each other's heads off is like watching a clip of two BJJers going light or practising their mobile games and then criticising them for not engaging properly. You're looking at one aspect of thier practice and assuming it is all like that.

It's not so much about how hard as how.. To me, its about training realistic distance and timing while working entering and finishing.. Kind of like Fan Sao..

That said.. Folks who do train regularly with hard contact, in hard sparring can also do so fairly safely and they WILL reap the rewards of such training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think MMA has started a new fad. Everyone is jumping on the banwagon. If you don't do full contact it's useless. When ninjutsu was big if you didn't know how to use a knife and climb a tree you weren't a real warrior.

I think these guy are learning a lot from this training. They moved well. They had good defense quick hands and good kicks. These guys I'm sure have day jobs they can't go at it ufc style all the time. Come into work with cuts and black eyes.

I think these guys could handle a street fighter or kung fu who isn't sparring regularly. I think they could also hang with that guys boxing clip put up here if they can use kick and traps and stuff.

If they want to do a mma fight they should probably increase the intensity of their training.

I also find it hard to believe that all these people talking about full contact are doing it. Let everyone who's talking put up a clip of your sparring. I have already .

First of all WC is NOT MT.
Second, the typical boxer and MT "light sparring" is not applicable to WC, why?
Totally different power production and use of combinations.
Third, there is "light sparring" that still gets your partner to react and there is "light sparring" in which your strikes get no reaction from your partner.
That is the issue.

[Edmund]

If you think you can do better, then back it up guys.



Ok, that was not exactly brimming over with realism. I hope that was just a light warm-up or something and not intended to be taken as actual 'sparring.'


It's not so much about how hard as how.. To me, its about training realistic distance and timing while working entering and finishing.. Kind of like Fan Sao..

That said.. Folks who do train regularly with hard contact, in hard sparring can also do so fairly safely and they WILL reap the rewards of such training.


First of all WC is NOT MT.
Second, the typical boxer and MT "light sparring" is not applicable to WC, why?
Totally different power production and use of combinations.
Third, there is "light sparring" that still gets your partner to react and there is "light sparring" in which your strikes get no reaction from your partner.
That is the issue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you think you can do better, then back it up guys.

:rolleyes:

Missing the point aren't you?
I am from kyokushin, not a week ( I wont; say day, that is silly) went by that bare knuckle hard contact sparring was NOT part of the workout.
Gloves were used when training head shots and YES, they train head shots in Kyokushin:
Gloved with fist, open had with no-gloves.
No punching to face is strickly competition oriented training.

[t_niehoff]

It's not the fact that they spar every day that is the reason for them to go lighter, but the fact that they compete every couple of weeks.

Going light with each other allows them to recover from their competitions.

Going heavy on the pads allows them to go heavy without sustaining injuries between competitions.

Right. The other thing is that when people either compete or go heavy in sparring regularly, they develop movement "habits" consistent with that intensity (fighting environment) so when they "slow down" they still move in the same ways (so they are reinforcing "good" movement habits even when going slow). When you go about it the other way, start with slo mo, you move in ways that aren't "good" (which you can get away with because you arenot being punished for them) and reinforce those poor habits.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Right. The other thing is that when people either compete or go heavy in sparring regularly, they develop movement "habits" consistent with that intensity (fighting environment) so when they "slow down" they still move in the same ways (so they are reinforcing "good" movement habits even when going slow). When you go about it the other way, start with slo mo, you move in ways that aren't "good" (which you can get away with because you arenot being punished for them) and reinforce those poor habits.


One can argue that, systems such as boxing and MT that stress minimal combinations - jab/cross, jab/cross/hook/low round kick etc.
That stress combinations that aren't TYPICALLY based on opponent reaction but opponent position, can "get away" with lighter sparring.
Systems that tend to base their training on "excessive" combinations and "sensitivity, like WC or Kenpo for example, for them it is even MORE CRUCIAL to go hard enough to get a reaction from the partner so that TRUE sequences and foot work are engrained in training.

[t_niehoff]

One can argue that, systems such as boxing and MT that stress minimal combinations - jab/cross, jab/cross/hook/low round kick etc.
That stress combinations that aren't TYPICALLY based on opponent reaction but opponent position, can "get away" with lighter sparring.


I know what you are getting at, but I'd say that those"combinations" were derived in the first place from fighting (they took those things that really consistently worked, in fighting or heavy sparring). My view is that these combos are based on opponent reaction (you throw the cross when it is open).



Systems that tend to base their training on "excessive" combinations and "sensitivity, like WC or Kenpo for example, for them it is even MORE CRUCIAL to go hard enough to get a reaction from the partner so that TRUE sequences and foot work are engrained in training.

My view that that functional arts don't have excessive combinations - they can't due to the high stress nature of fighting. Those things develop precisely because people are practicing unrealistically (without that stress).

[sanjuro_ronin]

My view that that functional arts don't have excessive combinations - they can't due to the high stress nature of fighting. Those things develop precisely because people are practicing unrealistically (without that stress).



That is whole new thread !
LOL !

[Edmund]

:rolleyes:

Missing the point aren't you?
I am from kyokushin, not a week ( I wont; say day, that is silly) went by that bare knuckle hard contact sparring was NOT part of the workout.
Gloves were used when training head shots and YES, they train head shots in Kyokushin:
Gloved with fist, open had with no-gloves.
No punching to face is strickly competition oriented training.

You said they weren't WC sparring the right way.

Show them up and post a clip doing it the right way.
Put gloves on if you like.

Let's see the hard stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You said they weren't WC sparring the right way.

Show them up and post a clip doing it the right way.
Put gloves on if you like.

Let's see the hard stuff.

I'll get right on that, in the mean while, explain how ME sparring hard is gonna change the fact that they AREN'T and all the is wrong with them not doing it ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing about sparring is that, if you don't put enough power in your strikes to at least get a reaction from your partner, everything will be out of context.
Combos will be artificial and will not play out the same as they do with real power being present.
Timing will be different, endurance, footwork, head work , etc.

You don't have to go "damage hard", but at least hard enough to make him/her react in the correct way.

And THIS is what I said.

[Edmund]

I'll get right on that, in the mean while, explain how ME sparring hard is gonna change the fact that they AREN'T and all the is wrong with them not doing it ?

I'm sure they could go harder in the future, if they saw all these right things you are talking about.

So that's why I suggest you do what you're advocating, video it and put a clip up of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm sure they could go harder in the future, if they saw all these right things you are talking about.

So that's why I suggest you do what you're advocating, video it and put a clip up of it.

:rolleyes:

Sell it to someone who is buying it.

[YungChun]

Funny stuff..

I wonder if it would be possible to put together a fight clip that would satisfy the whole group.. :confused: :eek: LOL

You'd have to have long range highly mobile footwork with bouncy bounce..

You'd have to have traditional grounded WCK footwork...

You'd have to be locked in one position like a statue..

You'd have to use non "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use Western Boxing strikes...

You'd have to use WCK strikes...

You'd have to stick...

You'd have to bob and weave...

You'd have to make hard contact...

You'd have to make no contact...

You'd have to eventually take it to the ground...

You'd have to roll...

You'd have to win both standing and on the ground, from guard and from the mount...With a tap and also with a choke--a KO from close range and from long range...and lastly by polite agreement, for the no contact folks...

Man that would be a lot of takes... :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny stuff..

I wonder if it would be possible to put together a fight clip that would satisfy the whole group.. :confused: :eek: LOL

You'd have to have long range highly mobile footwork with bouncy bounce..

You'd have to have traditional grounded WCK footwork...

You'd have to be locked in one position like a statue..

You'd have to use non "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use Western Boxing strikes...

You'd have to use WCK strikes...

You'd have to stick...

You'd have to bob and weave...

You'd have to make hard contact...

You'd have to make no contact...

You'd have to eventually take it to the ground...

You'd have to roll...

You'd have to win both standing and on the ground, from guard and from the mount...With a tap and also with a choke--a KO from close range and from long range...and lastly by polite agreement, for the no contact folks...

Man that would be a lot of takes... :eek:

LOL !!
:D

There is a little too much truth to this !

[wiz cool c]

I'm sure they could go harder in the future, if they saw all these right things you are talking about.

So that's why I suggest you do what you're advocating, video it and put a clip up of it.

I second that.

[Jeff Bussey]

Funny stuff..

I wonder if it would be possible to put together a fight clip that would satisfy the whole group.. :confused: :eek: LOL

You'd have to have long range highly mobile footwork with bouncy bounce..

You'd have to have traditional grounded WCK footwork...

You'd have to be locked in one position like a statue..

You'd have to use non "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use "Modified Wing Chun" kicks..

You'd have to use Western Boxing strikes...

You'd have to use WCK strikes...

You'd have to stick...

You'd have to bob and weave...

You'd have to make hard contact...

You'd have to make no contact...

You'd have to eventually take it to the ground...

You'd have to roll...

You'd have to win both standing and on the ground, from guard and from the mount...With a tap and also with a choke--a KO from close range and from long range...and lastly by polite agreement, for the no contact folks...

Man that would be a lot of takes... :eek:

Don't forget, you would have to do all of that against cro cop or someone else who's at that level for any of it to count

[monji112000]

harder doesn't mean you fix technical problems, or that you are able to defend yourself.

In my opinion (not that I am a expert), throwing on some boxing gloves (not MMA) should be a normal thing. hitting with intent, and braking the guys nose don't need to the same thing. That is if you are training to protect your face...

thats the real problem in my opinion, its not how hard you go.. its the techniques, and a realistic method of training. You can train to fight with “light contact” its not impossible, it just takes more planning. Thats why you can shadow box, and gain allot of benefit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that "hitting with enough contact to make your partner react correctly" needs to be restated, again.

[YungChun]

A lot of the progressive folks like using the MMA gloves or similar in combination with good headgear and whatever other gear. For regular sparring I think just the MMA gloves and "high quality" headgear is good enough for 80% of the work when you use common sense in how you spar.

MMA gloves take up much less space and allow for greater use of the hands.. This is important in order to make use of the small spaces that Wing Chun tries to take advantage of.

If you use boxing gloves the ability to use your hands is highly diminished, as is the ability to attack through small openings, and the need to protect those openings.

For realistic training of WCK kicks and leg work we used to use the hard plastic leg/shin/knee guards used in other sports.

This kind of equipment is great because it lets you actually apply the moves found in the system as intended without any real risk of serious injury, and still applying enough power to make the training fairly realistic..

[sanjuro_ronin]

This kind of equipment is great because it lets you actually apply the moves found in the system as intended without any real risk of serious injury, and still applying enough power to make the training fairly realistic..


**** that Logic crap !
:eek:

[YungChun]

On an aside..

Talking about 'contact'...

Freind of mine just sent me a link to this "stuff"..


http://www.laochikungfu.co.uk/videos/videos.php?src=Example4.wmv&height=260&width=280&title=Video%206

Medic!

What was THAT?

:eek::rolleyes::confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hope that's fake...

If not, just some good ol fashioned male bonding at the kwoon.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"One can argue that, systems such as boxing and MT that stress minimal combinations - jab/cross, jab/cross/hook/low round kick etc.
That stress combinations that aren't TYPICALLY based on opponent reaction but opponent position, can "get away" with lighter sparring.
Systems that tend to base their training on "excessive" combinations and "sensitivity, like WC or Kenpo for example, for them it is even MORE CRUCIAL to go hard enough to get a reaction from the partner so that TRUE sequences and foot work are engrained in training." (sanjuro ronin)

***THAT'S RIGHT. It's very crucial to go hard with wing chun in order to develop the various aspects of the wing chun game in a live situation. It's not just jab/cross, etc.

.........................


"A lot of the progressive folks like using the MMA gloves or similar in combination with good headgear and whatever other gear. For regular sparring I think just the MMA gloves and "high quality" headgear is good enough for 80&#37; of the work when you use common sense in how you spar.

MMA gloves take up much less space and allow for greater use of the hands.. This is important in order to make use of the small spaces that Wing Chun tries to take advantage of.

If you use boxing gloves the ability to use your hands is highly diminished, as is the ability to attack through small openings, and the need to protect those openings.

For realistic training of WCK kicks and leg work we used to use the hard plastic leg/shin/knee guards used in other sports.

This kind of equipment is great because it lets you actually apply the moves found in the system as intended without any real risk of serious injury, and still applying enough power to make the training fairly realistic.." (Yung Chun)


***RIGHT AGAIN. (Although I personally don't like the hard plastic. I prefer the softer spongey type shin and knee pads - and the TKD type chest protectors).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't like shin pads myself, never did, though I am paying for it now.

Kids, you use shin pads, you wimps !

[YungChun]

Not shin pads.. Shin guards that are a component part of the leg gear.. They are made of hard plastic and indended to take power "deem gerk" type kicks from folks wearing shoes to the shins, knees, etc... When they take a hard shot you hear a loud CRACK! sound...

For conventional leg banging I never used pads either but this kind of contact is a little different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not shin pads.. Shin guards that are a component part of the leg gear.. They are made of hard plastic and indended to take power "deem gerk" type kicks from folks wearing shoes to the shins, knees, etc... When they take a hard shot you hear a loud CRACK! sound...

For conventional leg banging I never used pads either but this kind of contact is a little different.

What's wrong with getting your shins covered in adamantium ?

[Liddel]

I got half way down page three and IMO there are too many wanna be proffesionals here. Not to mention - alot of assumptions about the context of the videos content.

Its ok to spar softer than full force if your between fights !
How do we know those in the vid are not between fights, for that matter how do we know the guys we see are not beginners on day two of training :rolleyes:

Would that change your opinion ? Why, Why not ?

Now because UFC for the most part seems to be the measuring stick these days ill use it as an example.

In my country we are only just broadcasting the third season of TUF.

In every episode i see almost all of whats been mentioned.
Soft sparring.
Full contact sparring.
Isolated/ dead training.
Fully alive and realistic training.
The list goes on.

Most peoples opinions here are right, in the sence that it would be great to have these missing points present in everyone's training.

But this is a snap shot of ONE TYPE of training.

NOW HERES THE DECIDING FACTOR
If i showed you one segment of a TUF episode just showing the Soft Sparring or pad work, some probably wouldnt comment as they have for this vid. Realising those in the show complement it with many other types of training.

But why are the opinions different ?

Because everyone on average, knows the training habbits of people that do MMA/ UFC (even though they vary alot) and everyone assumes many negitive things about Ving Tsun. Which i cant say isnt warrented, but that doesnt mean its right all the time.


We've all heard - "Assumptions are the mother of all ......"

Lighten up. (excuse the pun)

DREW