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RAYNYSC
12-08-2000, 01:48 AM
Just a question I would like to get feed back on.As I have been told by some that there is three and others say ten.I myself believe that there about twenty six systems that make up the art of Jun Fan. What do you guys think?

PEACE...

RAYNYSC

Black Jack
12-08-2000, 04:03 AM
I believe there are currently around 32 systems that have contributed to the JKD Concepts matrix in some fashion or another according to what I have read and from what my instructor has told me.

Some arts have contributed more than others in certain schools. Western Boxing, Thai Boxing, Savate, Wing Chun, Kali and Ju Jitsu are some of the more common names you will hear passed around though there are many others.

Each teacher or school has there own take on there JKD Concepts approach...I am in reference in this post to JKD Concepts and not Pre-1973 JKD/Jun Fan Gung Fu...for instance Paul Vunack schools have a heavy influence in the filipino arts and this can be seen by his incorporation of such hard to find filipino systems as Panajackman (FMA system of low-line kicking),Dumog (native FMA JuJitsu) and Keeni Mutai (FMA art of biting, eye gouging, hairpulling and pinching when grappling).

Other JKD teachers such as Richard Burton have a heavy filipino/silat approach as well and guys like Larrry Harstell are more focused on the grappling arts though all JKD fighters both JKD and JKD Concepts work all of the ranges of combat training.

It is all about what suits you the best and what tools fit into the guiding principles of JKD that matter the most.

Just because a school has a few tools from Savate in its curriclum like a Chasse bas does not mean that the student is learning Savate by any means.

Good schools bring in specialist instuctors or open specific classes for some of the core arts in JKD so the student can internalize and experiance one of those systems and see what fits them the best.

As an example I will show you what fits into my personal approach within the JKD Concepts structure as of this time.

Almost all of my hand striking tools are from Western boxing with elements of Mano-Mano, Wing Chun, Savate and Thai Boxing mixed in as well.

For my kicking tools its Thai Boxing, Savate and Panajackman.

For my infighting tools its Thai Boxing, Mano-Mano, Wing Chun, Dumog, Keeni Mutai, Panajackman and Western Boxing.

For my throwing and grappling tools its most of the basic JKD Concepts tools with a bend toward Dumog and Judo at this time

For my groundfighting range its Freestyle Wrestling, Ju-Jitsu, Shootfighting and Keeni Mutai.

For my weapons training its Kali though I would love to get into some Silat.

For mass attack training its mostly Western Boxing.

From a whole arts perspective I train in additional Largo Mano and other Archiepligo FMA combatives systems in a different school to internalize the heavy influence the FMA arts have in my school and because I think that the FMA arts are very hardcore and some of the best for weapon work out there.

We also have a once a week Savate class at my school from a Savate fighter who has spent a good number of years in France and Italy and realy works on the old style Parisien streetfighting savate and not Boxe Francaise.

Opps I didn't realize I was blabbing that much so I hope I helped answer your question.

Its not realy how many arts that are in "your" system its how you apply those arts & there tools to the concepts and principles of JKD and in turn how they work for you so you can create your own fighting style that is unquie and is natural.

Regards

RAYNYSC
12-09-2000, 01:01 AM
Black Jack:
Thanks for the reply, I'm a JKD Concepts guy myself. I just want to hear what the Jun Fan side of the story is?...(It's like they say there are two side's to every story,Just like theres more than one way of seeing & or doing things.)

I have nothing against anyone who studies Jun Fan. I may disagree with some on the way they see things or believe them to be.(But thats another story on to it's self.)Hell I may even disagree with someone who may see it the way I do at one point or another & thats cool & I can deal with that.
You see thats what makes JKD so special it's an art on to one's self JKD is about what works for the individual Regardless of where the system comes from...
Look JKD can be found in all most every art known to man! (Meaning the individual)Now thats a fact that a lot of people don't realize...(If you have no idea about what another systems has to offer you what makes you think it doesn't work) I don't get it...

The art of JKD is about what you can do with what you have Plain & simple there are no two ways around it you either have or you don't...
& if you don't you have to at least do some type of research on what you may come up against in a fight... The reason I'm saying this is because I agree with you. In saying that just because a school has some Savate in its curriclum doesn't mean that the student is learning Savate does it?... Think about it maybe French Savate,Pentjak Silat Serak,Mande Muda Pencak Silat,as well as Malaysian Bersilat Filipino Kali,Eskrima Silat & Muay Thai Thai Boxing have things that they can offer the individual. It doesn't always mean that your just looking at the way these systems fight but you should be also looking at the training methods that these systems follow...
That can make the individual a much more affective fighter...

In short JKD is about making the system a part of you & not you a part of it...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

Black Jack
12-09-2000, 06:21 AM
My thoughts exactly.

JKD is about concepts instead of sole techniques and it also places a very high stress on key attribute development for those attributes related to fighting.

Kind of like that old statement: "What good is having a gun if you dont have any bullets".

A lot of core martial arts at one time were JKD formated as they came from one mans vision on what worked best for themselves and thereby begged, borrowed and innovated on already learned techniques, concepts and principles intell they had there own form of self expression in self defense.

As I like to say its not about the style you practice its about how you train that realy matters.

I like my tools to be as simple and as natural feeling as possible for practical self defense.

Thats does not mean that a tool needs to be in the kindergarten level but it does have to be reasonable enough to learn and incorporate into my existing structure so I can either test it in sparring or if need be use it on the street.

A tool may seem complicated at first but if I can get it down enough to where it is field stripped so I can apply it within a number of different enviroments and situations with a good success ratio then I know that I have been making some good progress but for me it still comes down to analyzing the sweet secrets that are contained within a persons basics.

Regards

RAYNYSC
12-13-2000, 01:52 AM
You hit the nail right on the head if I do say so myself Black Jack... Thanks again for taking the time to reply...

Peace

RAYNYSC

DragonzRage
12-13-2000, 08:09 PM
The 26 arts that helped synthesize Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung fu (in no particular order) were:

wing chun, northern and southern mantis, choy li fut, tai chi, paqua, hsing I, bak hoo pai, bak fu pai, eagle claw, ng ga kuen, ny ying ga, bak mei, northern shaolin, southern shaolin, bok pai, law horn kuen, chin na, monkey, drunken fist, western boxing, fencing, wrestling, jiujitsu, escrima, filipino sikaran and muay thai.

There is only one martial art.

[This message was edited by DragonzRage on 12-14-00 at 12:15 PM.]

Sean Madigan
12-14-2000, 09:37 PM
Hi,

Well, according to Bruce Lee, it was only three....

Wing Chun
Boxing
Fencing

For kicking he wrote: "Just move your legs as you would your arms."

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

loki
12-15-2000, 11:46 PM
Did Bruce tell you that himself? :rolleyes:

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Kung Lek
12-16-2000, 01:01 AM
Hi-

What Sean is saying is drawn from the direct writings of Bruce Lee and his wife Linda (as his assistant in writing the Tao of JKD).

Bruce studied Wing Chun, Boxing (sort of in an open way) and fencing. He was not really exposed enough to any of the other arts mentioned to be able to grasp them deeply enough to incorporate them into Jun Fan Kung Fu.

Jun Fan Kung Fu as I understand is NOT JKD. It is indeed a system founded by Bruce Lee based upon his formal and informal training in codified and systemitized Martial Arts.

JKD to the best of my knowledge was Bruces way of telling everyone that the specific art they had was not of as much importance as understanding and embracing the art in a very real way.

To practice as you would fight in reality is one of the concepts.

The commonality of the scientific approach to body mechanics and what role that played in every martial art.

The commonality of the physics involved in a variety of techniques that point to what is economical and workable when done correctly.

These concepts carry across a variety of arts as the are truths that cannot be disproven IE: If I bend your elbow back past x degrees at this angle it will break EVERY time. This sort of thing is as true in Wing Chun as it is in Hung Gar , Choy Li Fut, Black Tiger, North Shaolin and the rest of the CMA and any other martial art out there that is martially applicabel and not just empty dance (the classical mess[ha ha]).

So there are 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and the Truth. ha ha.

peace

Kung Lek

RAYNYSC
12-21-2000, 07:26 AM
Ok so your saying that BL wasn't really exposed enough to any of the other arts mentioned to be able to grasp them deeply enough to incorporate them into JUN FAN kung fu...WHAT? :confused:

It's a known fact that BL exchanged & or Traded what he knew from Wing Chun for other Systems...
Hell it's even a known fact that if he(Bruce Lee)could not learn from the number one guy.(meaning the Sifu of a particular System)He would go up to the number one student or disciple & ask if they wanted to learn Wing Chun? & all they had to do was trade off what they knew about there system...

Now Taky Kimura one of only three instructors that BL ever made the other two James Lee who is no longer with us & Dan Inosanto... Said in a interview when asked did Bruce integrate other arts at that time,(Now grant you Taky met Bruce Lee in 1959)or was it strictly Wing Chung?
Taky's answer Bruce was familiar with many styles such as Hung Gar,Choy Li Fut,Praying Mantis,& others,but he identified with Wing Chun as being to his liking & he taught us a Rather Modified Version...

So as far as JUN FAN only having three system's in it doesn't make sense... Just think about what you said something to the affect of what Sean was saying is drawn from the direct writings of Bruce Lee & his wife Linda (as his assistantin writing the TAO of JKD)...
Did I miss something here or what?...
As far as I can tell there was more then Wing Chun,Boxing & Fencing in the TAO of JKD.
There was also drawing's & or notes on Thai Boxing,Savate,Judo,Ju-Jitsu & Grappling...


PEACE

RAYNYSC

harley
12-21-2000, 11:29 AM
Hello Ray,
Merry Christmas,
I think your on to something there Ray, i have seen the list of 26 arts but distictly remember Sifu Inosanto saying that that list was incorrect. i know some JKD people use it but i don't. perhaps you can ask Sifu Inosanto yourself next time your down.
harley :p

RAYNYSC
12-21-2000, 03:26 PM
Hello Sifu harley, Merry Christmas.
Thanks for the info on the art's of JUN FAN & I apologize so with that being said. I'll take your word for it as you & Guro Inosanto go back some time...
Once again thanks for everything...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

Kung Lek
12-21-2000, 07:44 PM
Hi Guys-

Ray, the reason I said what I said was out of personal experience and material that Bruce Lee himself wrote.

I too, have been exposed to arts such as praying mantis, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and others.
I cannot grasp them so deeply as to "incorporate" them into the art I do study.
Therefore, I think that what I said is correct.

A couple of techniques and their applications does NOT give you a lot of knowledge of a "system"

Granted and it is likely that Bruce played with a great many stylists from a great many systems, but Bruce cannot lay claim to "knowing" those systems. And I don't think he did claim that.

Anyway, once again, Props to the little Dragon! he made some HUGE contributions to the study of genuine chinese martial arts in the americas.

peace

Kung Lek

Sean Madigan
12-23-2000, 09:48 AM
Hi Ray,

Just because Bruce Lee was "exposed" to other martial arts, doesn't mean that these arts are incorporated within the system of Jun Fan. Sure, Bruce Lee looked at other arts, that is true, he even made notes about some of them, however, if you look at what 'he' himself trained in, and taught, you will see NO mention of any of these arts. That is simply the truth.

There is no getting around what the man said, and he said: "I am having a system of martial arts drawn up, it is compromprised mostly of Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Fencing."

If you look at the curriculums from the Seattle school, the Oakland school and the LA Chinatown schools, you will see NO mention of anyother art. Also, look at his personal training diaries, basically all they consist of is simple straight punches and kicking....not much else. I am sorry to say, but there was no "Thai Class" in the LA Chinatown school. ;)

With all of the information available today, it is kind of easy to see what Bruce Lee was talking about back then.

Anyway, have a good holiday.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

12-25-2000, 08:39 PM
Hi Sean,

Please don't be offended by the following response. It is critical but I hope fair. I thought about emailing privately but I think other people need this information.

You claim Jun Fan is comprised of only 3 elements and that claims to the contrary are false. You imply that with Sijo Lee's notes we can now, finally, get the real answers. Is it your position that his notes are more reliable than clear statements given by leading 1st generation instructors? It seems so. Here are my reasons for disagreeing strongly with you.

POINT 1: Your primary quote is old in a JKD development sense. The quote you reference was from a letter written to James Lee on August 1, 1965. (See Letters of the Dragon: Correspondence, 1958-1973, page 59-61 or Jeet Kune Do: Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way, page 47) Do you think that maybe, just maybe, some other influences may have made it into the mix in the following 7-8 YEARS.

POINT 2: The quote actually SUPPORTS the position that MORE than 3 elements contribute to Jun Fan. It is UNDENIABLE that the primary influences in Jun Fan are Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Fencing. But the letter reads, "...is a combination of chiefly Wing Chun, fencing and boxing." 'Chiefly' implies, at least in English, that the MAJORITY is comprised of those elements and the rest is drawn from OTHER sources/systems. But I guess you are right. "There is no getting around what the man said."

POINT 3: "...if you look... you will see NO mention of any of these arts. That is simply the truth." Pretty strong statement. Look again. A CURSORY glance at the Tao of Jeet Kune Do reveals under "Some Weapons From JKD" both Judo and Wrestling. (Tao of Jeet Kune Do, page 75) 3 + 2 = 5. Citing Sijo Bruce is fun!

POINT 4: Just because Sijo Lee used Chinese or English terminology does not make it a Chinese or English technique a priori. After all, a rose by any other name is still a rose. Here is just one example. I have personally heard Sihing Inosanto describe agonizing hours watching Savate films in detail, over and over again, with Sijo Lee. I have also heard Sihing Inosanto clearly state that Savate is one of the arts directly contributing to Jun Fan. If Sijing Inosanto says Savate contributed to Jun Fan and you say 'bull****' then you are either saying he is mistaken or lying. Just because Sijo Lee doesn't call a hook kick 'foute' does not mean Savate is not an influence on the curriculum and/or a major contributor to the manner in which kicking is used in Jun Fan. 3 + 2 + 1 = 6

There are many kicks in Jun Fan that are not at all like Wing Chun. There is no kicking in western boxing and fencing so where did they come from then? We know Sijo Lee had considerable exposure to many other arts. But I guess this is just a coincidence because his notes say, "Just move your legs as you would your arms."

It is not as simple as saying Jun Fan is a hodge-podge of boxing, fencing and wing chun. In Jun Fan you can't say the punching is boxing, the footwork is fencing, the trapping is Wing Chun, the rear hook kick is Thai Boxing, the oblique kick is Savate, etc... All these statements would be wrong to some extent. They are BRUCE LEE'S JEET KUNE DO. He researched various methods and worked out his own way of putting it together that worked for him.

POINT 5: You argue that examining the curriculums of the three schools somehow supports your claim that, "..., according to Bruce Lee, it was only three...." I 'looked' at the curriculums you have listed on your website and see no mention of western boxing or fencing either. (http://www.junfanjkd.com/curriculums.htm) This must mean that ONLY Wing Chun contributed because it was the only art mentioned by name in the curriculum? Kind of poor logic isn't it?

POINT 6: The notes we are so lucky to see in print should not be dogma. What he taught and said directly is equally if not more important. Sijing Inosanto tells us that Jun Fan was influenced by 26 arts. Is he not trustworthy? Clearly your position then is that he is either mistaken or lying? You also publically stated on a forum that Sijo Bruce Lee NEVER 'said' 'Absorb what is useful...' because you could not find it in any of his public writings. I also hear people saying that Sijo Lee only taught 3 ranges in contradiction to Sijing Inosanto again. Why isn't 'because Sijing Inosanto said so' enough for some people?

POINT 7: Show some respect. Nobody is perfect or infallible or above questioning. (shh..., don't tell anybody but it's possible that even Sijo Bruce Lee may have gotten a few things wrong ;) ) What Sihing Inosanto has said should not be dogma either. Sihing Inosanto has earned the right to be considered a leading authority on Jeet Kune Do and not be second guessed by someone who was likely not even alive when he was learning DIRECTLY from Sijo Lee.

I can understand and respect the differences of opinion about what the core of JKD is and the direction Sijing Inosanto has taken it. It least there is some valid reason for disagreement there. But this garbage with 2nd and 3rd Generation instructors saying Sijo Bruce never said or taught this or that in DIRECT contradiction to what Sihing Inosanto has told us is just ENORMOUSLY DISRESPECTFUL.

POINT 8: Why should we believe anything Dan Inosanto teaches if Sijo Lee's notes or other students contradict Dan? Well try this quote from Linda Lee for starters: "At the time of Bruce's death, Dan Inosanto was the one man who had spent the longest and most recent period of time with my husband in the development and refinement of the art of Jeet Kune Do. With Bruce's passing, Dan became the senior spokesman and authority not only on the physical expression of the art but also on the underlying philosophy..."(Linda Lee Letter)

Or how about because Sijing Inosanto had over 2,000 PRIVATE lessons with Sijo Bruce Lee and taught 90 - 95% of classes at the Chinatown school.(An Exclusive FreeVoice Interview With Sifu Dan Inosanto, page 23)

Doesn't that make him qualified to be an authority on what was and wasn't part of the curriculum of Jun Fan? Why, when Sijing Inosanto is on record do other 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation students feel qualified to contradict him?

POINT 9: Finally, just to be perfectly clear about what Sihing Inosanto teaches regarding the 26 sources in Jun Fan?

Here is a quote from an interview with Sihing Inosanto: "BLACK BELT: A lot has been said about the origin of jeet kune do. A student of yours, Paul Vunak, stated that it can be traced to 26 different elements. Is this true? DAN INOSANTO: Well it's true in the sense that there were 26 different components to Bruce Lee's research. Bruce, however, didn't borrow equally from all 26 styles. This illustration is comparable to doing a research paper and using 26 books for your report. You might take 10 percent from one book, 15 percent from another, and ignore another book completely. But you would still cite all 26 in your bibliography." (My Friend Bruce Lee: A Revealing Chat With Jeet Kune Do Expert Dan Inosanto, Black Belt Magazine, page 29-30)

CONCLUSION

The tone of your posts was arrogant. You took some lighthearted jabs at the 'Concepts' group again and directly contradicted Sihing Inosanto in an open forum. I know you didn't intend to make a personal attack on Sifu Inosanto but that is what it is when you openly state something he says is untrue. It's a free country and NOBODY has a monopoly on knowledge, but you seem to be part of a group of JKD instructors who have been taught to ignore or scrutinize what Sihing Inosanto has said and written. I truly don't understand this attitude.

Sean, you have somehow become an 'expert' on JKD to the public due to your efforts on the internet. Being a teacher is an honor and responsibility. You should do a little more research before answering questions and making authoritative statements on what is and isn't Jun Fan or JKD. You are playing politics by ignoring what Sijing Inosanto has taught.

You see, with all the information available today it is kind of easy to find out what Bruce Lee was talking about back then... just ask his assistant instructor who was actually there.

In respect,

Andy

Sean Madigan
12-25-2000, 09:08 PM
Hi Andy,

I am not offended by your post at all, sorry you were so offended at mine. It is clear that we are going to disagree on some things, and that's fine with me.

From your post it is clear that you feel that I took some sort of 'shot' at Dan Inosanto. That was not my intention at all.

I really feel that at this point it is best to let this thread die. It can only go down hill from here.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

RAYNYSC
12-26-2000, 07:52 AM
Great post there Delurker I glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels that Sean has been taking pop shots at (The JKD Concepts side not to mention Guro Inosanto)from time to time...
I must say I agree with the points you brought up.
As I feel that your points went into more detail on some of the parts I tried to get across...

By the way thanks for taking the time to reply to this topic... Maybe we can talk some time via e-mail let me know if you have the time...

As for you Sean,
What's up? Now you have nothing to say,except for I really feel at this point it is best to let this thread die... ha ha your funny...

Well anyhow I would like to end this by wishing everyone a Happy New Year!

PEACE

RAYNYSC :D

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 12-26-00 at 11:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 12-27-00 at 12:09 AM.]

loki
12-26-2000, 08:42 AM
Sean,

I hate to say it ( then again, no I do not ), but you had it coming. :rolleyes: :D


Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Kung Lek
12-26-2000, 07:46 PM
Hi-

Yes it would be nice to have all the knowledge of 26 seperate systems of cma all wrapped up ina neat and tidy package and put out as a new art.

but to take a technique here and there and to add high kicks which Bruce Lee had a natural propensity for does not mean that you can "Tack" on all these different styles and say they are in jkd. That is simply not true.

yes , elements of other arts exist in the body of what is taught, but they are small in comparison to the arts which bruce lee had a fuller comprehension of those being wing chun, boxing and fencing.

The addition of Fillipine martial arts came through Dan Inosanto and he has brought a lot more into the practice of jkd since bruce Lees death.

To make such a statement would equate to the JKD practitioners being the "New Chin Wu" society.
Except for the fact that the chin wu society had different masters with complete arts teaching those arts in a seperate fashion from all the other arts offered by the society.

Many masters over the years have incorporated other techniques from other masters into the systems they have learned and they did not take away from those systems but merely added to their own.

Hung Gar is Hung Gar, Wing Chun is Wing Chun, Shaolin is Shaolin and so on. JKD cannot make the statement that it has all of these arts encompassed in its offerings, It does not.

peace

Kung Lek

Sean Madigan
12-26-2000, 08:04 PM
Hi All,

I’ve been reviewing this thread, and although I still feel that I have the right to disagree with anybody when it comes to Jeet Kune Do, I could have ‘disagreed’ in a more professional manner.

So, I apologize for the way I handled myself, but I do not apologize for having my own opinion.

If I goof up, I'll own up to it.

All the best,

Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

DragonzRage
12-26-2000, 10:20 PM
First off, I think that I can say with a good amount of certainty that the mention of Bruce making research into those 26 different arts is in no way meant to imply that he had a thorough understanding of all those arts and was able to embody their structures altogether in Jun Fan. I think what is actually meant is that he found small aspects or ideas that made sense to him through his research of many of those styles. It is definitely not as if he got so and so technique from pakua, this deadly kick from northern mantis, that secret punch from hsing-I, etc. In actual structure and technique, it is obvious to me that Jun Fan comprises of boxing, wing chun, fencing and an altered form of the basic kicking techniques that are universal to many styles of Gung fu, karate and TKD (you can't exactly patent a hook kick or a sidekick to any one style). From a technical standpoint, these are the aspects of Jun Fan, as far as I've seen. The 26 styles list that I posted earlier was probably simply meant as a reference to all the research Bruce made throughout his growth as a martial artist in his attempts to seek out the universal truths of combat. It was NEVER Bruce's intention (nor do any JKDC affiliates claim it to be) to have "26 seperate systems of cma all wrapped up in a neat and tidy package and put out as a new art". In all likelihood, he could probably care less about making the "ultimate Gung fu style" especially considering the fact that his opinion on most of those classical styles (or the way they were being taught) was not too high, to say the least. It was his intention to simply bring his Gung fu skills back to the roots of Gung fu, which is nothing more than the simple, direct, natural and efficient application of fighting technique. To say that he was attempting to create a technically cunning terror of an art through all this added complicated and ornamented mess with a thousand different secret James Bond tricks from a thousand different gung fu styles is to extremely pervert the intentions of his creation. It has been said time and time again, JKD is NOT simply an eclectic style of martial arts.

BTW...

"To make such a statement would equate to the JKD practitioners being the "New Chin Wu" society.
Except for the fact that the chin wu society had different masters with complete arts teaching those arts in a seperate fashion from all the other arts offered by the society."

I train at Guro Inosanto's academy in L.A. I just thought that you might like to know that the different martial arts influences over here are all taught within their own complete and separate programs. Jun Fan Gung fu is taught in its own class just as their are fully qualified Muay Thai instructors that teach thai boxing by itself in its own class, just as Shoot Wrestling is taught by a very qualified instructor in its own program, just as a Machado black belt conducts his Machado JJ program by itself. If you want only to study Filipino martial arts by itself, that option is available to you. If you want only to study Bjj, that option is also available to you. If you want to crosstrain in different arts, that option is also available to you. Classes at the academy are definitely not taught as a disorganized hodge podge mishmash of random techniques from a bunch of different systems, which is what you seem to assume JKD training is. If you get to read this, I'm glad that you now know better. Perhaps the next time I see Guro Inosanto I'll suggest to him that he change the name of his school to "New Ching Wu Academy of Martial arts" LOL!

There is only one martial art.

rogue
12-27-2000, 05:11 AM
So you're saying that Inosanto, the defacto kahuna of JKD, doesn't teach it the way two out of three JKD schools I went to teach it? Which was the hodge podge method. Dan is still the man. I love all the guys who jump on the "Danwagon" and sample the arts that he's working on mastering. They still don't get that's the difference between Inosanto and themselves.

loki
12-27-2000, 03:15 PM
Rogue,

I couldn't agree with you more . ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

RAYNYSC
01-02-2001, 08:36 AM
Without question Dan's the man!
To tell you the truth as far as I see it...
Guro Inosanto has kept it real (Meaning The Concept of JKD)to the point of taking it to the next level... & I'm not just talking about the name of JKD as it's just a name. Like Bruce Lee said on the last page of theTAO OF JEET KUNE DO<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]If people say JEET KUNE DO is different from "this," then let the name of JEET KUNE DO be wiped out,for that is what it is, just a name Please don't fuss over it.

Tell's me that what Guro Dan Inosanto has been & still to this day doing is keeping the art of JEET KUNE DO ALIVE by finding what works for him, & not what works for you or me...
JEET KUNE DO is about you the individual any way you look at it,as my way may not be your way... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]The art of JEET KUNE DO is simply to simplify.It is being oneself;it is reality in its "isness." Thus,isness is the meaning-having freedom in its primary sense,not limited by attachments,partialization,complexities...
That's why I feel that he's taken it to the next level by teaching by example nothing more in short
Dan is the man...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

loki
01-02-2001, 11:55 AM
Thaaat's right!!! Not Sean Madigan. :D :rolleyes: ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

rogue
01-02-2001, 03:30 PM
1. Bruce Lee is dead.

2. Bruce Lee was still developing his ideas until the time of his death.

3. Nobody knows where Bruce Lee would have ended up with his ideas, not Dan, not Linda, nobody. He might have done a total about face and went traditional, he may have dropped MA all together and become a movie director or he may now be running a chain of succesful MacDojo/Aerobic studios and selling videos on Homeshopping channel.

JKD is worth discussing but it's certainly not worth fighting over.

mcnasty
01-19-2001, 08:10 AM
what matters is what helps you acheive your full potential. these sort of discussions are what i believe bruce wanted to avoid that is why he did not want to give jkd a name because then it became something that people would try to quantify and break down. i've never studied with a jkd instructor but i've read bruce's work and have been influenced by it. my background was boxing then wing chun then muay thai now i study taiji quan. But i havn't dismissed the other training i've had now that i do taiji i bring all that i've learnt together and allow myself the freedom to experiment and play with techniques when training. the last sentence in the toa of jeet kune do goes like this - If people say jeet kune do is different from "this" or from "that" then let the name of jeet kune do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it.
R.I.P bruce

Erasmus Lightstone
01-26-2001, 10:44 AM
If JKD is not a STYLE as Bruce said..but rather an evolvement of personal expression and liberation that is a constant PROCESS..then isn't it really impossible to say that "JKD consists of-------,------, and ------,etc." since as a concept it can really use ANY "system" to achieve it's end?

DragonzRage
02-02-2001, 10:18 AM
I agree with your standpoint on JKD, but the original question was on Jun Fan Gung fu, not Jeet Kune Do.

RAYNYSC
02-17-2001, 07:01 AM
Good Point there Rage but the problem here is the fact that many people acknowledge Jun Fan as Jeet Kune Do. & by doing so at time's may become confused as to what Jeet Kune Do is?
Ultimately many people don't realize that the individual is the most important part of Jeet Kune Do. After all Jeet Kune Do is nothing more than a name...

PEACE
RAYNYSC

HHH
02-18-2001, 09:44 PM
Fencing is a TREMENDOUS part of Jun Fan Gung Fu.
I am unable at this time to make an extansive analysis, but if you go to www.fencing.net (http://www.fencing.net) and then re read the Tao of JKD you will see the following concepts are very obviously fencing terms and are not found in Wing Chun or Boxing.
While somethings are found in all three (parry), the way it is described in the Tao is very obviously fencing in scope:

Riposte,
Compound riposte,
Parry,
Beat,
On Guard Stance,
Strong Side Forward,
Lunge,
feint,
1st/2nd Attack
Advance/retreat
recovery
beat/press/fient
engagement
changes of engagement to feint

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Also,

In the "grappling sections of the Tao there are a significant numbers of locks and holds that are not found in Wing Chun ( and certainly not in Boxing or fencing!) that are from Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Catch as Catch can Wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, Judo and Chin Na'

(You can see a "John Smith Single" takedown on the Hapkido guy in Game of Death. (Not in WC/B?Fencing)

(for example--The Step over Toe Hold is a catch wrestling move and the Clock choke (lapel Choke) is from Judo. I have not seen either taught in Wing Chun. A few of the armplocks, however, are in Wing Chun. There is a great out of print book on wing chun grappling that was very eye opening.
It was first published before the UFC explosion, so it was not revisionist history.)

When I studies OJKD we did a lot of trapping and kickboxing into locking. These were from Bruce's own curriculum so he did definitely incorporate them.

Bruce Studied Tai Chi and showed wonderful form on the "lost interview" and expressed his love for it, but I am not sure if Tai Chi made it into the curriculum.


There are NUMEROUS kicks from Savate in Jun Fan Gung Fu that are not found in WC. I believe a lot of the "flashier" kicks in JF come from TKD/Savate/And Mantis. (Actually, this has been validated by a number of sources.)
The Sweep Kick, the spin, and the back spin kick are NOT wing chun! The Pak tek (slap kick) very Savate oriented!
the Cane bruce and dan use for beginning the game of death fight scene is from Savate. (don't know the french name.)

Bruce lee and Dan played with Football equipment and modified made modified Thai pads but gave up on it because neither had the proper instruction in Muay Thai (per a Dan inosanto interview)
Bruce's own notes in the Tao of JKD and one of th John Little Books show bruce's own had drawing of Muay Thai. Hell, Fists of FUry was filmed in Thailand! He couldn't avoid it if he tried as Muay Thai is a CULTURAL thingy in Thailand!

in game of death, the Nunchunk scene sees Bruce repeatedly strike Dan Inosanto's hand. In Chinese Connection, the chuks repeatedly strike the feet of the Japanese baddies. This is the Fillipino concept of DEFANGING the Snake. NEVER does bruce BLOCK with the chucks!

In Game of death, Bruce and dan have an exchange that is a parody of Kali challenge matches.

There is Super 8 footage bootlegged with dan demo'ing sticks at Ed Parker's show while he and Bruce where demo-ing.

Bruce lee uses the double Kali sticks in his movies several times.

There are numerous photo's of Bruce with Dan and Kali sticks are present.

I have seen a photo of Bruce lee in a gi training judo!

Some of the Trapping is dis similar from some WC trapping as it is hybrided with Southern Mantis trapping. I believe The "harmonious Spring" energy drill is a mantis influence.

Hey, Bruce had 2,000 martial arts books!

he had to have bought them for a reason!

GOOD TRAINING TO EVERYONE!

chen zhen
03-16-2002, 11:08 AM
You mention mantis in the part with the kicks. In what way is it an influence?

Cyborg
03-17-2002, 02:52 PM
So, not trying to be rude but why does it even matter? If we agree (and it seems we do) about JKD being self expression at its finest and that body mechanics are the same no matter what art they are contained in... well, what's the big deal?

My JKD isn't your JKD. To quote someone famous. ;) I personally go with the refined (read simple) method.

And I think some of you are taking this opportunity to "pot shot" at Sean. Two wrongs don't make a right. Let's be civil about our disagreements pls.

jmdrake
03-18-2002, 10:14 AM
Hello all,

I find it ironic that the same person that said he wanted to "hear the Jun Fan" side of this later jumps Sean's case for simply stating the "Jun Fan" side of this.

Anyway, what did Jun Fan himself say about the arts that made up what he was doing?

Quote:
I'm having a gung fu system drawn up -- this system is a combination of chiefly Wing Chun, fencing, and boxing. As for gun fu training, I'll have them written down when it is finished. Boy it will be it!
End quote:

That's taken from Jeet Kune Do, Commentaries on the Martial Way page 47.

That's the "Jun Fan" side of this from Jun Fan himself. Does this mean that what Dan does is wrong? Of course not! In fact I'm no longer sure if what Dan does is any different from what many "original" JKD people do except for in terms of terminology. At Dan Inosanto's excellent martial arts website there is a class schedule for his school. Sure there are classes on Filipino martial arts, shoot wrestling, stickfighting and even Yoga. But there are also classes on Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jun Fan Kickboxing. From what I've heard from those that attend those classed arts such as Kali, Silat ect are NOT a part of what is taught at that time! What is taught is what some of us call "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" or "Orginal Jeet Kune Do" or simply "Jeet Kune Do". Kevin Seamen's great book Jun Fan Gung Fu : Seeking the path of Jeet Kune Do also bears this out. As most of you know Kevin Seamen is certified under Dan Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu. Dan Inosanto endorses this book. When I read through it I didn't see any Kali, Silat or Dumog in it. I saw the same Wing Chun, boxing, fencing influenced techniques that I train in when I do what I call "Jeet Kune Do". So if all can agree that "what you call Jun Fan Gung Fu is what I call Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" then the whole silly "concepts versus original" arguments can come to an abrupt halt.

Regards,

John M. Drake

chen zhen
06-29-2002, 11:16 AM
Hey, about my question a couple of posts ago...anyone?
(just to bring it on the front page again)

jmdrake
07-01-2002, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by chen zhen
Hey, about my question a couple of posts ago...anyone?
(just to bring it on the front page again)

Hello Chen,

Bruce Lee apparently trained with Praying Mantis grandmaster Mark Foon. Here is a link to the interview with Master Mark regarding Bruce Lee's training with him.

http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/Lee.htm

And here is a quote from that interview regarding kicking.

ME: What did Bruce Lee think about Wing Chun?

GFM: He thought it ws a very good system. However, it specialized in close in fighting. Its footwork was not varied enough and there were not enough kicks. He considered modifying Wing Chun to include these elements.

ME: Praying Mantis is a southern system. Does it have many kicks?

GFM: Praying Mantis has as many kicks as most northern systems or Taekwondo. The kicks fascinated Bruce. In fact, the sweeping front kick to the opponent's lower leg appears in many of his movies.

But there were other things that Bruce apparently like about Praying Mantis as you can see from the interview. Hope that helps.

Regards,

John M. Drake

chen zhen
07-05-2002, 10:57 AM
Thanks JMD, but actually I thought It was Northern Mantis that was mentioned, since It was mentioned together with other styles featuring high kicking (TKD, Savate)
and thanks for the link!

RAYNYSC
07-06-2002, 08:01 PM
Hey Drake,
So where did southern or even the northern 7 mantis come from if Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do is made up of just Wing Chun,Fencing & Boxing?...:D

Hey Chen,
Bruce was also exposed to the Northern 7 Star Mantis system as well..... I mean think about it Drake?....
Bruce was in Hong Kong up untill 1958 before he came the USA which tells me that he was exposed to the Jing Mo Association from Hong Kong the same Jing Mo that came over from China..... Ever heard of Fak Yuen Gap Just in case you haven't he was the head Instructor of Jing Mo, In fact Bruce's chinese connection was base on the Jing Mo & the death of Fak Yuen Gap!.... (Right Chen Zhen) Which by the way tought The Nortern 7star mantis system as well as The Northern Eagles claw system just to name a few.....:D

Peace

chen zhen
07-07-2002, 11:07 AM
Hey Ray, I would also include that in the book Tao of Gung Fu is written in the back that at demonstratations and Karate tournaments he would demonstrate Southern AND Northern Praying Mantis forms as well as the Jeet Kune form featured in Jing Mo schools so you'r probably right. There's also pictures of him with a three section staff featured in northern systems.
But WHO he trained with and HOW LONG he trained Jing Mo is not known...

loki
07-08-2002, 08:03 PM
Bruce Lee learned Jing Mo forms, including a few northern mantis forms from Liu Jin Dong/Shiu Hong Sang. This Sifu studied at Jing Mo. He learned 7 Star Praying Mantis from the famous Law Kwong Yuk who was the Grandmaster of the system at the time and in direct line to the founder of the system , Wang Lang. He was also a Sifu of the Hung Gar system.

The following is a quote that readers may find interesting.

"In July, 1974, many Australian newspapers gave prominent reports on the visit of a Kung Fu expert, and hailed him as the master of the Chinese art of Kung Fu. Special coverages and features were given to the fact that he coached Bruce Lee in Jeet Kuen Kung Fu. Who is this person? He is none other than Sifu Shiu Hon Sang, a respected figure in the Kung Fu circle."

...and another,

"Sifu Hon Sang demonstrating Jeet Kuen technique. From here it can be imagined that apart from Wing Chun techniques, the forms of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do also contain essence of the principles of Jeet Kuen."
-----REAL KUNG FU MAGAZINE

As a sidenote, the northern Mantis system has a form by the same name so the term is not something that is new or unique to BL's system. It is obvious that he borrowed the term and it's concepts from other sources (Chinese Kung Fu).

Peace.

RAYNYSC
07-11-2002, 07:20 PM
Hey Drake,
Not for nothing but the way I see it theres's a whole lot more to Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do or Jeet Kune Do concepts than just western boxing,fencing & wing chun.

But hey I take it pics of BL sitting with other well known masters of Gung Fu Styles like Sifu Siu Hon Sang( 7star mantis)Sifu Sek Kin( Eagles claw) you may know him better as han from ETD) Sifu Au Wing Nin (white crane) just to name a few,oh & by the way just for the record two of three Sifu's mentioned are from the Hong Kong Jing Mo Association.... So now you tell me whats the deal with that....:confused: If anything At best I would say that Jun Fan is the base/core of Jeet Kune Do & Jeet Kune Do Concepts takes Jun Fan to the next level.....

Peace

chen zhen
07-13-2002, 10:01 AM
Bruce also mentioned in a letter to an old training partner that he taught some of his early students WC and some of "Uncle Siu's northern-style high kicks" That could be Sifu Siu Hon Sang that RAYNSYNC mentions Lee sitting with on a photograph. THAT must be the Northern Mantis-connection.
And by the way,RAY, where have you seen those pictures?

RAYNYSC
07-14-2002, 03:28 PM
The picture was in a magazine called Real Kung Fu magazine that is no loner in print as far as I know....

It was part of an artical that was written by Sifu Siu Hon Sang which was titled Understanding Chinese Kung Fu....

Peace:D

stumpydee
07-15-2002, 04:05 AM
Hello,

I think that JFJKD is as stated previously made up PRIMARILY of Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing. Bruce may have studied other styles, there may be other styles in JFJKD but these three are the main components of JFJKD.

In my opinion the components that were inspired or taken from other styles no longer really resemble the style they were taken from. As many people would say Bruce added his own slant to the techniques to make them work for him, to fit into his JFJKD framework.

People can always say that technique X is from Praying Mantis (just an example i am not trying to quote anyone here), but is it, the technique delivered the same way in JFJKD or has something been modified to make it work better in the JFJKD framework. Was a chamber removed (economy of motion)? is it now used from a lead weapon (closest weapon to nearest target)? was torque added?

I think this is something people do not spend enough time thinking about. Yes Bruce used lots of things from lots of places. But instead of spending time working out what he used from where, think about what he changed and why he changed it.

Damian

loki
07-15-2002, 05:42 PM
Adapting and changing techniques/movements to fit an individual's needs is not a foreign concept to chinese Kung Fu. That has been going on for thousands of years. In fact, you can see this even today. In the 7 star Praying Mantis system for example, you will see people playing the same form a little different, depending on who's doing the form. A certain technique might be done slightly different, or it can even be left out. The flavor, tempo,and power distribution can also vary. All this can be seen from people who share the exact same lineage. There are many reasons for this and I won't get into that now. I just want to point out that the idea of changing and adapting is part of chinese kung fu. In the articles which I have, one of which I quoted above, the Sifu who taught Bruce Northern boxing stressed this very same principle.

Getting back to what Bruce learned and what he used, I believe that Bruce held back from teaching alot of what he knew. I believe Dan himself said something pertaining to that some time ago. Bruce always wanted to have the edge so it is quite possible that he chose to keep the Kung Fu he knew to himself. The evidence that he did practise other chinese systems besides Wing Chun is out there. There is a photo of Bruce using a crane's beak on a student(I can't remember if it's Taky Kimura). The crane's beak to the temple is a very famous Hung Gar technique. Also, there is another photo of Bruce doing a technique which is known as playing the flute and he's in a 7 star stance. This is a 7 star mantis technique. Bruce can be seen in a photo on the set of Enter the Dragon doing a Jing Yow (Eagle Claw). The rear leg heel kick to the lower leg which Bruce uses against Chuck Norris in Return of the Dragon is known as Jak Toy and is used alot in the 7star mantis system. There are many other such photos. With the possible exception of Eagle Claw, the techniques I've mentioned could have very well been taught by the same Sifu in the articles since those are techniques from the very same systems which he knew and taught. The Eagle Claw could have been taught by Shek Kin who was a master in the system. But Shek Kin also learned at Jing Mo and was close friends with Sifu Shiu Hong San so they could have shared forms and techniques since this was very common at Jing Mo.

As far as not chambering kicks, that is not something Bruce came up with on his own. Chinese Kung Fu kicks are not chambered. And as far as torquing for power..well, that's already in Kung Fu also. Every system of Chinese Kung Fu has it's way of issuing power in accordance with the principles and makeup of the system.

Peace

RAYNYSC
07-15-2002, 07:25 PM
I believe its not about what BL Changed & why he changed it.... It had more to do with his understanding of the theories & principles of application then the technique he was using in set times of his life....


Peace:D

chen zhen
07-19-2002, 10:25 AM
I have difficulty finding any information about this Sifu Siu Hon Sang on the internet. Does anyone know where to find any?

loki
07-19-2002, 05:56 PM
Unfortunately, information about Sifu Siu Hon San is hard to come by these days. Real Kung Fu and Secrets of Kung Fu magazines were really the only ones who published articles on him back in the 70's. These magazines however, have long been out of print. My Sifu has almost all of them and that is how I was able to get copies myself.

If I had a scanner I would be more than happy to send them to you but I don't. If you are interested contact me privately, maybe we can work something out.

Peace.

chen zhen
07-20-2002, 11:12 AM
OK thanks, I don't think my E-mail address is in my profile, but you can just ask me someday on the forums, and i'll give iy to you

chen zhen
07-26-2002, 10:33 AM
Now that I think of it, forget it. I really don't need to know about him anyway!:cool:

chen zhen
06-01-2003, 10:36 AM
Ok, this thread has'nt been up in a long time..

loki, I'd like to see some more information on shiu hon sang now, anyway. You said you could send it? that would be great:)

chen zhen
06-01-2003, 10:42 AM
never mind, I'll pm you

chen zhen
07-10-2003, 08:31 AM
Is this the pic of BL doing a crane's beak, u talked about?

Yung Apprentice
07-10-2003, 01:30 PM
The Jkd school I went to, consisted mostly of WC/Lama Pai Crane/BJJ. There was some western boxing, and some fencing, but those were the main styles used. Of course a couple other styles had some techs thrown in.

But we are talking Jun Fan here, so that is besides the point.

Also, as far as ppl quoting Taky Kimura, and Danny Inosanto, Bruce Lee said it in his book, that both Taky and James were more steeped in the Wing Chun chinese system, because they both met at an early stage in his development, and that he tries to liberate them from one way to walk the "pathless path". BL went on to say that Dan met him in the midst of his evolution, although at that time, he had less training then both Taky and James.

chen zhen
07-11-2003, 06:02 AM
The Jkd school I went to, consisted mostly of WC/Lama Pai Crane/BJJ. There was some western boxing, and some fencing, but those were the main styles used. Of course a couple other styles had some techs thrown in.

that sounds like a rare JKD school :confused:

is'nt it mostly those Boxing/Muay Thai/BJJ/Kali schools that are most common?

Yung Apprentice
07-11-2003, 12:18 PM
Yeah, this was different, it had a lot of Wing Chun and Lama Pai Crane. And once or twice a week, there was an instructer who came in and taught BJJ. Like I said there was some boxing and fencing, and I think a few Muy Thai techs, but mostly WC/Lama Pai Crane/BJJ.

The sifu is Jack Soiderberg. Count's former sifu in Chicago.





There is another place here in town that teaches JKD, and mostly consists of what you mentioned, bjj/and or sambo. With a big emphasis on Kali. But I think that place is more into workshops for some reason.

chen zhen
07-11-2003, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the info.:)