CMA and groundfighting.

[tattooedmonk]

From my research , teachings, and practice I have found that CMA does have groundwork . What does everyone think about the existance of CMA groundwork? Not as sport but as an actual application of the material that we are taught.

[MasterKiller]

CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it's mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Or, in an even worse trend, CMA guys with no clue as to how technical groundfighting is watch the UFC too much and figure they know how to fight on the ground when the guy follows him or falls with him, or imitates ground and pound by jumping on top of him, and they end up brawling on the floor, whereas a controlled and calm BJJ guy would make mincemeat out of him without breaking a sweat.

That's my experience anyways. I remember in that first little bit of BJJ I was introduced to by a very good BJJ school, the black belts (2 of 'em in that class) would trounce you in a second, and they'd be so calm, whereas I and the other beginners were huffing and puffing with even the blue belts. You learn how technical it is very quickly. And untrained CMA guys just seem to imitate, with no strategy whatsoever, and therefore pretty much sucks on the ground. Not all of 'em. But most of what I've seen.

I learned some maneuvers on the ground in CMA. Never have someone to practice them with, and never had detailed instruction in how to employ them....so they're pretty much useless. My assessment is pretty much MK's, but I'm not as experienced, so maybe my opinion isn't as well informed.

I fell into that trap before I cross-trained a little in BJJ (very briefly), and then realized I had no friggin' clue what I was doing afterwards. So I stopped that bad habit right away--aiming for the ground. I started trying to keep on my feet when those other guys go for sloppy takedowns and such, to punish them. But when I hit the floor, I try to use the basics I learned (or, didn't learn), and treat it like a learning experience, just to get the feel of it.

[tattooedmonk]

CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it's mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground. I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.

If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).

This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.

The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.

[WinterPalm]

The art I study has ground fighting. It is not similar to BJJ but it is there. It is based on takedown defense, and striking from the bottom position, with some sweeps thrown in. There is also strikes from one's back at a standing opponent that is trying to get on top of you.
Further, we have takedowns and trips that utilize the mount and especially side-control with arm locks and striking. Often times the best way to neutralize someone is to take them down, bind them up, and subdue them. Utilizing the ground or a wall is very ideal for the application of any type of joint lock and so we train in that aspect as well.

[MasterKiller]

I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.

If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).

This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.

The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.

Too bad reality doesn't support your theory.

[tattooedmonk]

Too bad reality doesn't support your theory.No , it is too bad YOUR REALITY does not support THIS FACT. So explain to us why it does not??

[MasterKiller]

It's your fruity theory, you do the explaining.

[tattooedmonk]

The art I study has ground fighting. It is not similar to BJJ but it is there. It is based on takedown defense, and striking from the bottom position, with some sweeps thrown in. There is also strikes from one's back at a standing opponent that is trying to get on top of you.
Further, we have takedowns and trips that utilize the mount and especially side-control with arm locks and striking. Often times the best way to neutralize someone is to take them down, bind them up, and subdue them. Utilizing the ground or a wall is very ideal for the application of any type of joint lock and so we train in that aspect as well. I do not understand how it is that many CMArtist can say that their art has no ground fighting other than what they bring into it from other styles . The philosophical principles, if applied to the art properly, proves that it does.

I would have to say that it is a lost or extinct aspect of the art for the most part.

How can animal styles not have ground work ??? Most animals are on all fours or on their bellies. It just does not make sense.

Not failing to mention the internal styles of Ba Gua Zhang , Tai Ji Quan , and Xin Yi Quan.

All these arts work with spheres and /or parts of spheres. If you know anything about these arts you know that you are walking in and out and around a sphere.

Why would/ do you think these same techniques can not /do not work on the ground??

If you say that they use only circular movements and not spherical movements then you are only thinking in a limited dimension world. Which is not reality.

They are multi-dimensional and work on all three planes of motion.

Your axis( spine ), dan tien( center of gravity ) appendages, brain, organs, etc ( tools) are in the same place whether you are standing or on the ground.

[tattooedmonk]

It's your fruity theory, you do the explaining.How is fruity?? You explain why it does not...... or is that the problem you can not??

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think CMA doesn't do groundfighting in the usual modern sense. Small joint manipulation doesn't count, nowadays. Sure, a groundfighter will say: I can manipulate your joints, too. But that's just like a CMA'ist saying: hey, I can brawl like a brute on the ground, too. They're ****ed good at getting large joint manipulations that would end a fight with more permanence (armbars, knee locks, ankle locks, etc), but a good finger lock or finger bite is highly underrated, and opens up a very good weakness to exploit.:D They're faster, and if you're good, you can control the body with the smallest part. Plus, many groundfighters will leave these parts and weaknesses wide open (it is true, and I have seen it firsthand many times). Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera on hand to videotape those classes and sessions.

Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.

I think it's the difference in waging a war of attrition (small, cripppling damages) vs. a war of complete and utter surrender (armbar). IF you can do both, you're 10X better.
My CMA teacher once demonstrated many groundfighting techniques he could change into (all of them submission based, including armbars, etc.) from a common wrist lock that's pretty easy to apply. All of it was CMA. I was pretty much screwed from the moment the small joint-lock was in place.

[MasterKiller]

Small joint manipulation...sheesh.

We aren't talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.

Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.

CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.

Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.



Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.

You watch too many movies.

[tattooedmonk]

I think CMA doesn't do groundfighting in the usual modern sense. Small joint manipulation doesn't count, nowadays. Sure, a groundfighter will say: I can manipulate your joints, too. But that's just like a CMA'ist saying: hey, I can brawl like a brute on the ground, too. They're ****ed good at getting large joint manipulations that would end a fight with more permanence (armbars, knee locks, ankle locks, etc), but a good finger lock or finger bite is highly underrated, and opens up a very good weakness to exploit.:D

Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.Not in the sense of too almost naked men rolling on the ground for long periods of time!!:rolleyes:LMAO

Well CMA has Large Sphere Chin na (shoulders, hips and torso) , Medium Sphere Chin Na( elbows, knees, and neck), and Small Sphere Chin Na ( wrist , ankles , fingers and toes). Although most CMArtist where shoes. So you will probably never use or practice those ones.:D( refering to the toe ones!!!

These can be applied on all three planes of motion. CMA is spherical and dynamic and not linear and static( at least not in fighting) and is constantly moving and changing.

[MasterKiller]

Not in the sense of too almost naked men rolling on the ground for long periods of time!!:rolleyes:LMAO

Well CMA has Large Sphere Chin na (shoulders, hips and torso) , Medium Sphere Chin Na( elbows, knees, and neck), and Small Sphere Chin Na ( wrist , ankles , fingers and toes). Although most CMArtist where shoes. So you will probably never use or practice those ones.:D

These can be applied on all three planes of motion. CMA is spherical and dynamic and not linear and static( at least not in fighting) and is constantly moving and changing.

It's pretty obvious you have no practical experience on the ground.

And shoes make it EASIER to lock the ankle or heel hook someone.

[tattooedmonk]

Small joint manipulation...sheesh.

We aren't talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.

Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.

CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.

Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.
Nor am I . CMA does not have training for postitional dominance or transitions from less or more dominant positions?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What CMA have you been learning...... Keyboard kung fu ?? Modern Wu Shu?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You have no clue.

Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "....

you my friend are ....
Clueless

[Shaolin Wookie]

Small joint manipulation...sheesh.

We aren't talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.

Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.

CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.

Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.

Look, MK, I agree with you on positional dominance, guard, and transition. But you have to often sacrifice protection from small joint manipulation in order to get that kind of position or leverage. A good BJJ guy can trap my hands and render them immobile. But sometimes, even against the black belts I rolled with for like 5 seconds before they pinned me or submitted me (hahaha, but true), I knew I could grab that finger on my lapel instead of grabbing the wrist, and wrenched that sucker till it broke. It would keep him from grabbing me with that hand, or punching me with it (if BJJ had strikes). All I'm saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better.

BTW, there was a dude there with one arm that was severed at the elbow, and he was awesome, because he had mastered using leverage. But if I broke his one good hand, he'd be ****ed.

[tattooedmonk]

It's pretty obvious you have no practical experience on the ground.

And shoes make it EASIER to lock the ankle or heel hook someone. How so ?? I was talking about the toe chin na.

[MasterKiller]

Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "....
Show me.

In fact, how about a clip of you demonstrating?

[MasterKiller]

All I'm saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better..

And all the Chin Na in the world is useless without a system for training positional dominance, which CMA does not have because it was never the focus of Chinese systems in the first place.

[tattooedmonk]

Show me.

In fact, how about a clip of you demonstrating?Which type of guard?? Half , full , butterfly.........?????? F#CK IT I WILL POST THEM ALL! I will get a partner, film it, and then post it . May take a day or two.I have been having trouble with uploading and down loading on my computer.

[MasterKiller]

BTW, there was a dude there with one arm that was severed at the elbow, and he was awesome, because he had mastered using leverage. But if I broke his one good hand, he'd be ****ed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWhByQuLSPI

[tattooedmonk]

And all the Chin Na in the world is useless without a system for training positional dominance, which CMA does not have because it was never the focus of Chinese systems in the first place. Guess you must still be a beginner or just a keyboard martial artist.!

[MasterKiller]

Which type of guard?? Half , full , butterfly.........?????? F#CK IT I WILL POST THEM ALL! I will get a partner, film it, and then post it . May take a day or two.I have been having trouble with uploading and down loading on my computer.

OK, and please explain which form you trained these positions in, and demonstrate the form. Also, I'm sure you have the Chinese expressions for "full guard," "butterfly guard," and "half-guard" at your disposal, since you will be showing pure CMA techniques designed to escape these positions.

[MasterKiller]

Guess you must still be a beginner or just a keyboard martial artist.!

ANYTIME you want to find out, I will be a gracious host.

[tattooedmonk]

ANYTIME you want to find out, I will be a gracious host. LMAO @ YOU ,STILL!!!

[street_fighter]

well, this is the funniest thread ive read through in a while. keep going, very interested to see those clips... lol

[mantis108]

I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.

If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).

This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.

The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.

I believe Masterkiller is right on the money. It's "culturally" not preferrable (ungentleman like behavior) to wrestle a down opponent. There is no binding "philosophies" to say that TCMA should not or thou shalt not ground fight using TCMA. However, there isn't yet a TCMA style that have developed a proficient ground fighting (positional dominance) methodology. Most styles have something as Masterkiller have said pop up from the ground, ground kicks, or ground & pound. There are some rudimentary side control/knee on belly esque and primitive mount stuff but not enough to rival BJJ ground grappling specialist IMHO.

I also believe that it is a gross misuse of the Yinyang principle here. Yinyang and Wuxing theories, or worldview of Yijing (classic of change) for that matter, can definitely be applied in groundfighting. But that's for people who are interested in more advanced academic pursuit once they have a solid working knowledge of ground fight (positional dominance with submission skill). It is not as superficial as outlined I would caution. It doesn't really help to mystify both fighting and philosophical work even if it is possible to consolidated as one IMHO.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[RonH]

The principles of stand up fighting with taijiquan can easily be applied to ground fighting, epecially when you are on the bottom, whether on your back or not.

In taijiquan, the maximum number of things you do is absorption, redirection and attack. In many styles, like krav maga, western boxing, etc. you are taught to sidestep the attack and then, attack. Well, when you're on your back, you can't sidestep, but you can redirect an attack and then, attack, wether your attacker is on the ground with you or still upright when you're on the ground.

[tattooedmonk]

Ba Gua Zhang alone to prove that CMA has groundwork. I will use the philosophical , psychological and the physiological aspects of Taoism to prove what should already be known to the practitioners and masters of this art.

.....By the way, there is nothing mystical about it.

I could also use ground dragon , monkey, and many other styles.

Yin /yang principle can be used to describe all the dual aspects of our existence.

Standup fighting / groundfighting. Real basic ,not too hard to figure out, and is exactly how it is used.

I am truelly amazed about the fact that this aspect of the art is soooooo lost or unheard of by all of you.

Guess your schools do not teach the 3 "p's" of the arts. The philosophy of Taoism alone rules the Internal arts.

This is tooo funny.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWhByQuLSPI

I always thought that guy was amazing, seriously.:cool: Didn't know he was from Athens, though. I went to college at UGA in Athens.

[Mega-Foot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWhByQuLSPI


Notice, however, you droll naysayers, how poorly that same submission wrestler fared in a full contact tournament against a stand-up Chinese martial artist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1A7ecS7rs0

[tattooedmonk]

.....and look at the symbols that represent Taoism, Tai Ji , Xin Yi ,and Bagua. Those are the strategic patterns used in all Chinese "Kung Fu". They are not two dimensional. They are MULTI -DIMENSIONAL. Explore the quantum mind and you will know the TRUTH.
A right angle is a right angle no matter which plane you are on .......XYZ!!

[MasterKiller]

Saying you can take stand-up principles and apply them on the ground (which is wrong, anyway) is not the same as having a ground fighting system.

[MasterKiller]

The principles of stand up fighting with taijiquan can easily be applied to ground fighting, epecially when you are on the bottom, whether on your back or not.

How often do you do it? How much of your class time is spent exploring Tai Chi principles against wrestlers...against submission experts?

How often do you even fight full-contact stand-up in your Tai Chi class?

[bodhitree]

tatooedmonk

I think just about anyone who knows what they are talking about is lauging at you right now.


In the book Chinese Fast Wrestling, Liang Shou Yu shows a guard pass that would result in the guard passer being caught in a triangle.


It was a good effort, but he didn't discuss the detail that you need to pin the opposite leg down when passing.

[tattooedmonk]

tatooedmonk

I think just about anyone who knows what they are talking about is lauging at you right now.


In the book Chinese Fast Wrestling, Liang Shou Yu shows a guard pass that would result in the guard passer being caught in a triangle.


It was a good effort, but he didn't discuss the detail that you need to pin the opposite leg down when passing. I doubt it.
Would or could result??
I would not make the same mistake.

[tattooedmonk]

Saying you can take stand-up principles and apply them on the ground (which is wrong, anyway) is not the same as having a ground fighting system.Whatever... you have no clue and stop acting like you do. you are looking at it from a modern sport perspective not from a ancient combat and philosophical perspective . The ground fighting aspects are inherent in the systems of Kung Fu.








Get a clue.

[bodhitree]

Have you ever rolled with wrestlers, bjjers, judoka, samboists, etc., ? I really doubt it.

[tattooedmonk]

How often do you do it? How much of your class time is spent exploring Tai Chi principles against wrestlers...against submission experts?

How often do you even fight full-contact stand-up in your Tai Chi class? I would say at least half the time.

Do you Know the difference between full-contact and full-force ??

[tattooedmonk]

Have you ever rolled with wrestlers, bjjers, judoka, samboists, etc., ? I really doubt it.Oh so now you can see all and know all by a few posts and a thread or two?? Give it a rest. And yes I have and I **** them off everytime.

You all have to stop thinking with in the box of what it is known to the outside world . I bet dollars to donuts that you are a keyboard martial artist and /or a hobbyist.

[bodhitree]

I would say at least half the time.

Do you Know the difference between full-contact and full-force ??

This guys living in delusion. He reminds me of Dr. Painter Ph.d.

Please go to a wrestling/bjj/judo practice and challange one of them.

[MasterKiller]

And yes I have and I **** them off everytime.

So how come you haven't been to Abu Dhabi yet? A guy as skilled as you should clean up against those chumps.

[bodhitree]

MK

this guy is laughing at you:rolleyes::D

[MasterKiller]

MK

this guy is laughing at you:rolleyes::D

*curls into fetal position and sucks thumb *

[Pk_StyLeZ]

too much to read
i am going to say this
CMA dont have ground fighting because we chinese never fall to the ground =D
you must train more and harder if you do fall on the ground
hahaha
jk jk
=D

[tattooedmonk]

This guys living in delusion. He reminds me of Dr. Painter Ph.d.

Please go to a wrestling/bjj/judo practice and challange one of them.

whatever

I have and do .

[tattooedmonk]

MK

this guy is laughing at you:rolleyes::DYES !!!LMAO AT YOU TOO!!!

[tattooedmonk]

*curls into fetal position and sucks thumb *You should!!!!

[bodhitree]

YES !!!LMAO AT YOU TOO!!!

keep laughing. When you go to wrestle someone with skills and they choke you out, keep laughing. Apply your bagua trigram to that.

[RonH]

Saying you can take stand-up principles and apply them on the ground (which is wrong, anyway) is not the same as having a ground fighting system.

Let's work with an example. Say you are standing up and someone in front of you that is within breath smelling distance throws an elbow at you. You can raise your elbow, letting the force of their elbow strike be absorbed partially into your body and you redirect the path the elbow is taking, so it doesn't hit you.

Now, transfer that to a ground fight. Say someone is on top of you and your are on you back. They throw an elbow to your face. You can raise your arm, letting it absorb some of the force of the strike and redirect it away from your face.

The same is true when they've got you in a headlock and you're on your back with them on top of you. They're squeezing your neck. With that tension, your first impulse may be to tense your muscles out of fear that you'll soon loose air and if they keep holding, you'll die. First, you remain calm, so you don't tense up. You relax the muscles of your neck and you turn your head, while you push their arm away from your shoulder, slipping your head out.

Now, check out the link to the image below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armlock_juji-gatame_armbar.jpg

I don't know if that's the proper name for the lock, but that doesn't matter. Let's say that you are in the position of the black guy in the photo, having a joint lock done by the asian guy. How does he get out of it? SImple, just like the previous example. First off, you need to relax the shoulder. Being tense, like you'd get from things, like some would do with western boxing, makes joint locks like this more effective. Keeping the shoulder joint muscles loose and not resisting the pull is what needs to be done. Yes, by the time you get out, the muscles can be stretched further than normal, if you haven't taken the steps already to keep yourself from having your arm pulled that far, even when they've already got their legs across your upper body and they've started to pull on your arm.

Now, your shoulder joint is being stretched and the asian guy has one leg across your throat. What do you do now? As you relax your arm, you turn your head towards the hips of the asian guy and push his leg up, so it slides across your chin. If you can bend your head back, so that his leg slids across not only your chin, but across the front of your adam's apple, that's better.

At this point, you are now in-between his legs and you can twist your shoulder, and roll on your left side. Here, you can push off the mat with your feet and with the hand not being held by the asian guy and get on top of him.

In a street fight, I'd recommend a headbutt to the nuts at this point, but in a sports match, you could get on top instead.


How often do you do it? How much of your class time is spent exploring Tai Chi principles against wrestlers...against submission experts?

I stopped going to the class some time ago, but it wasn't unheard of to train in grappling situations with people that knew what they were doing. There was this one guy that was a foot taller than me and he knew submission holds. Strong as a bull, too. He was tough to eventually beat because while he wasn't fast with moving his whole body, he could tighten his grip with his hands, arms and legs faster than I could slip out. He liked f@rting on people he put in holds, too,...the wanker. It took a while to get faster than him.


How often do you even fight full-contact stand-up in your Tai Chi class?

How are you defining full contact?

[MasterKiller]

Traditional Chinese ground fighting is based on PURPOSEFUL FALLING, FOOT WORK and when foot work is not an option a ROOTED BASE. I do not intend to elaborate too much here as certain methodologies were not intended for indiscriminate publication.
Not because it is some deep dark secret of Ninja lords (LOL) The reason is to maintain the integrity, value, and true base of the style.

Your ground fighting is "too secret" to discuss? Oh, brother! :rolleyes:


The Four Hits are comprised of Punching, Kicking, Grappling, and Wrestling which in my book pretty much covers any conceivable violent encounter scenario.

Ti Da Shuai Na. That's pretty much what ALL KUNG FU is supposed to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you wanna be good at a specific skill, not matter what it is, you shoudl train with someone or in some system that excells at that specific skill and in terms of submission ground work that would be BJJ and submission grappling.

Nothing else around even comes close at this point in time.

[MasterKiller]

Since I learned in Cantonese I have no idea what Ti Da Shuai Na means.

Kick Strike Wrestle Lock



Sign up for my class if you want the details or better yet go ACTUALLY practice instead of SITTING at your desk antagonizing anyone with an opinion different from your own mr. keyboard warrior.

I don't have time to sign up for your classes. I'm too busy running my own.

[SevenStar]

All I can do is shake my head and say dayum...

[mickey]

Greetings,

This is a very strange thread because the argument is based on a historical disconnect. So, here it is:

Jiu Jitsu is a martial art that came to Japan from China. Though the grappling aspect has been emphasized in MMA, there are striking techniques as well. Ther really should be no shame to any practitioner of CMA to practice jiu jitsu. They are simply rounding out what may have been lost over time; or, even better, helping ensure their art's survival in the future.

I refer to call jiu jitsu as Sleeping Lohan technique, a term that arrived to me in a metaphysical epiphany.

mickey

[Fu-Pow]

How often do you do it? How much of your class time is spent exploring Tai Chi principles against wrestlers...against submission experts?

How often do you even fight full-contact stand-up in your Tai Chi class?

To these guys that are saying that stand up practice translates to the ground:

You fight how you train. If you never train to fight on the ground you will get pwned by someone that does...no matter how good your stand up game is.

From what I understand BJJ is very similar to Taiji on the ground. That is, its more about skill then raw strength. But if you never practice it then how you going to be able to do it under pressure?

Ridiculous!!!

FP

[PangQuan]

CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it's mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground.

agreed

why would you follow your opponent to the ground when you can just stab him with your straight sword...

[PangQuan]

to me, it seems that the link between stand up and the ground has been utterly lost or forgotten by the majority of CMA practitioners.

this blame falls on the masters.


all the more reason to cross train.


seriously, how many CMA schools out there can actually claim as extensive of a ground fighting/submission program as your average MMA school can?

show me one, then show me proof, then ill still doubt you....

[RonH]

to me, it seems that the link between stand up and the ground has been utterly lost or forgotten by the majority of CMA practitioners.

this blame falls on the masters.

all the more reason to cross train.

seriously, how many CMA schools out there can actually claim as extensive of a ground fighting/submission program as your average MMA school can?

show me one, then show me proof, then ill still doubt you....

So, you accept that someone could come up with 'evidence', yet you have entirely no interest in examining it? Since you have clearly shown your willingness to stack the deck on this question for your position, why would anyone want to bring evidence to you in the first place?

[Mega-Foot]

too much to read
i am going to say this
CMA dont have ground fighting because we chinese never fall to the ground =D
you must train more and harder if you do fall on the ground
hahaha
jk jk
=D

ARe you saying they can't fall to the ground because they're so short, y ou racist? As a Japanese American, student of a Sino-Japanese mixed master, I take great offence, and extend a cold-hearted invitation to my next kumite in September.

[PangQuan]

So, you accept that someone could come up with 'evidence', yet you have entirely no interest in examining it? Since you have clearly shown your willingness to stack the deck on this question for your position, why would anyone want to bring evidence to you in the first place?

i said, doubt.

that in no way promotes total lack of interest in examination. rather it is exactly as it sounds. doubt.

doubt can be overcome, yet to be doubtful of a situation which is highly sensitive and wrought with fraudulent claims is the best course to take to assure validity upon close scrutiny.

so yes. show me proof via claim and support via the internet and yes, i will still doubt the validity of origination, until i can learn for myself otherwise.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

ARe you saying they can't fall to the ground because they're so short, y ou racist? As a Japanese American, student of a Sino-Japanese mixed master, I take great offence, and extend a cold-hearted invitation to my next kumite in September.

uh...i wasnt being racist,...i was saying..chinese martial art dont practice ground fighting..because we dont need to..because we never fall to the ground..becuase chinese martial art is the best.....
and i was being sarscastic too..if u didnt realize....

u can extend any invitation to me all u want. if u want to fite. come up to me and hit me. or else i aint fighting to prove anything
thank you

[RonH]

And by doing so, make it even harder for someone to convince you when you make generalized statements, like that. And regardless of previous claims that you perceive to be fradulent, it's immaterial. It's a matter of logic. Absorption of an attack, redirection of said attack and then, attacking yourself is not stand up dependent. Whether something is stand up dependent or groundwork dependent, it depends on how those 3 things are achieved.

[SevenStar]

Greetings,

This is a very strange thread because the argument is based on a historical disconnect. So, here it is:

Jiu Jitsu is a martial art that came to Japan from China. Though the grappling aspect has been emphasized in MMA, there are striking techniques as well. Ther really should be no shame to any practitioner of CMA to practice jiu jitsu. They are simply rounding out what may have been lost over time; or, even better, helping ensure their art's survival in the future.

I refer to call jiu jitsu as Sleeping Lohan technique, a term that arrived to me in a metaphysical epiphany.

mickey

bad disconnect dude... that info CANNOT be proven. To date, there is no evidence that japanese jujutsu came from china. There are stories - such and the popular chen gempin story, but there are also holes in that story. There is no verifiable proof.

[mickey]

Hi SevenStar,

I guess history does change. There was a time when this connection went without saying. No kidding.


mickey

[PangQuan]

And by doing so, make it even harder for someone to convince you when you make generalized statements, like that. And regardless of previous claims that you perceive to be fradulent, it's immaterial. It's a matter of logic. Absorption of an attack, redirection of said attack and then, attacking yourself is not stand up dependent. Whether something is stand up dependent or groundwork dependent, it depends on how those 3 things are achieved.

I never said i doubt the validity of ground material within the CMA community, its the utilization and whole sale teaching that is whats rare of said material.

as i posed before, how many CMA schools can claim as solid of a ground/wrestling/submission training program as your standard MMA school can?

if the material is so prevelant within CMA, why arent we seeing this type of ground program as a standard in CMA schools?

its actually quite the opposite. percentile wise, out of 100% of CMA schools, how many of them truly address the ground issue to a full extent. not a half assed attempt but an actual fully developed system akin to BJJ or JJJ. sure you will see an incorporation of many throwing techniques, but often thats where it stops. We dont often see the follow up to the ground. In some cases yes, you do, but in many and i would be tempted to say most cases, you do not see this. And often when you see follow up to the ground, its generally not going to be of the mindset that your opponent will be well versed in a ground game.

Now I have been to my fair share of CMA schools. Maybe its just my side of the country, but rarely do you find a good solid ground system in place at your average kwoon...

this is the level of ground comprehension you generally wont see in a lot of CMA schools. IMO, and from what i have personally seen.

[unkokusai]

Hi SevenStar,

I guess history does change. There was a time when this connection went without saying. No kidding.


mickey


You mean like the Sun revolving around the Earth? That kind of thing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You mean like the Sun revolving around the Earth? That kind of thing?

You mean it doesn't ???

:eek:

[unkokusai]

Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

[mawali]

If someone falls, slips or is thrown and he is at the groundfighting stage, it tell me somethings has failed. Let me see: how do you submit the opponent?
Did CMA work in this scenario?

[tattooedmonk]

I have never read or heard any where that these four aspects of CMA meant only stand up.Never at anytime that have I been learning,practicing, or teaching CMA did it ever come across my mind that all the same techniques could not be used in ground fighting. A punch is a punch a kick is a kick wrestling is wrestling and grappling is grappling.I have used them time and time again effectively .

I must have some really great teachers.

I find it hard to believe that if anyone of you runs a school and has been taught authentic CMA that you would have not learned CMA groundfighting.

Physics are physics. Your anatomy,physiology, Bio-mechanics, center of gravity,etc. are the same on all three planes.

Yes there are advantages and disadavntages to both, however, this is exactly what the Liang Yi ( yin yang) symbol represents.

And I also must state that there many factors as to why CMA groundfighting are no longer practiced or taught in CMA and why it is a unknown or lost art in many schools.

[tattooedmonk]

You mean like the Sun revolving around the Earth? That kind of thing?Perfect . You see most CMArtist believe that we do not have groundfighting like people use to believe that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Now in the light of new information we all now know that the Earth revolves around the Sun , maybe one day you all will be willing to accept that CMA has groundfighting.

[PangQuan]

And I also must state that there many factors as to why CMA groundfighting are no longer practiced or taught in CMA and why it is a unknown or lost art in many schools.

This is the aspect I have been touching on personally. Often times the most groundfighting you will see in a CMA school is minimal at most, and many times done in the midst of something else.

its rare when you see a CMA school focus for a prolonged period of time on ground work. and even more rare to find a school that has a program in place like this with intimate and very advanced material being demonstrated and taught to a large and growing group of people.

can someone link me a school that provides a ground system that is taught, practiced, and competed with, yet on the same level as BJJ or JJJ??

please link this CMA school

[sanjuro_ronin]

Perfect . You see most CMArtist believe that we do not have groundfighting like people use to believe that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Now in the light of new information we all now know that the Earth revolves around the Sun , maybe one day you all will be willing to accept that CMA has groundfighting.

The Earth revolves around Helio.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the aspect I have been touching on personally. Often times the most groundfighting you will see in a CMA school is minimal at most, and many times done in the midst of something else.

its rare when you see a CMA school focus for a prolonged period of time on ground work. and even more rare to find a school that has a program in place like this with intimate and very advanced material being demonstrated and taught to a large and growing group of people.

can someone link me a school that provides a ground system that is taught, practiced, and competed with, yet on the same level as BJJ or JJJ??

please link this CMA school

I recall that systems that train "ape" style, like Lionsroar and Hop Gar, have some sort of GnP.

[tattooedmonk]

If someone falls, slips or is thrown and he is at the groundfighting stage, it tell me somethings has failed. Let me see: how do you submit the opponent?
Did CMA work in this scenario?Essentially yes. I do not practice or teach that the fight stops there ,well unless the person is out cold.

I think this is the problem and one of the reasons why people say and think that CMA has no goundfighting, they all think that there are so efficient at stand up fighting that it will never make it to that level. YEAH RIGHT!

Somewhere along the line they figured hey, I am not going to let it get that far so I will just work on my stand up fighting to the ultimate level so that I will not have to even worry about groundfighting .

You obviously see the flaws in this way of thinking

The fighter has to apply a different mind set and utilize techniques differently in groudfighting but the basic theories ,concepts, principles ,etc are the same.

It is only different in your minds.

How would I submit an opponent, Chin Na.

[PangQuan]

How many CMA schools train their students to deal with an experienced grappler with a solid guard? and how to pass that guard, dealing with the takedown, offense/defense, the mariad mount positions, the pro's and con's of each. etc...

[mantis108]

How would I submit an opponent, Chin Na.

With all due respects ...

It's like saying How would men fornicate, with his d!ck! :eek: [joke] :D

Mantis108

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many MMA of BJJ gyms teach people how to deal with being attacked by a tree with 3 arms and a leg eh ? EH!?!?! HOW MANY !?!?!

None I say, NONE !!

[tattooedmonk]

With all due respects ...

It's like saying How would men fornicate, with his d!ck! :eek: [joke] :D

Mantis108I can use any Chin na technique to submit an opponent, within reason of course.

[MasterKiller]

Still waiting for those videos!

[SevenStar]

I have never read or heard any where that these four aspects of CMA meant only stand up.Never at anytime that have I been learning,practicing, or teaching CMA did it ever come across my mind that all the same techniques could not be used in ground fighting. A punch is a punch a kick is a kick wrestling is wrestling and grappling is grappling.I have used them time and time again effectively .

I must have some really great teachers.

I find it hard to believe that if anyone of you runs a school and has been taught authentic CMA that you would have not learned CMA groundfighting.

Physics are physics. Your anatomy,physiology, Bio-mechanics, center of gravity,etc. are the same on all three planes.

Yes there are advantages and disadavntages to both, however, this is exactly what the Liang Yi ( yin yang) symbol represents.

And I also must state that there many factors as to why CMA groundfighting are no longer practiced or taught in CMA and why it is a unknown or lost art in many schools.

the thing is you are taught it as stand up. How many schools have you seen teach ground chin na at all, let alone on a frequent basis. You can't just assume that a standup technique will work on the ground, because degrees of movement between standup and the ground are different, although physics, mechanics and gravity may be the same.

[SevenStar]

The Earth revolves around Helio.

those helio phones are pretty new - you sure the earth revolves around them?

[sanjuro_ronin]

those helio phones are pretty new - you sure the earth revolves around them?

Just ask Rorion.:D

[unkokusai]

Perfect . You see most CMArtist believe that we do not have groundfighting like people use to believe that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Now in the light of new information we all now know that the Earth revolves around the Sun , maybe one day you all will be willing to accept that CMA has groundfighting.

The difference is that the Earth revolving around the Sun can actually be observed, measured, proven.

[PangQuan]

How many MMA of BJJ gyms teach people how to deal with being attacked by a tree with 3 arms and a leg eh ? EH!?!?! HOW MANY !?!?!

None I say, NONE !!

lol

thats what wing chuns for!

[tattooedmonk]

the thing is you are taught it as stand up. How many schools have you seen teach ground chin na at all, let alone on a frequent basis. You can't just assume that a standup technique will work on the ground, because degrees of movement between standup and the ground are different, although physics, mechanics and gravity may be the same.I was not. I started learning chin na/groundfighting my second class. Now I teach it. I understand degrees of movement are limited on the ground . I do not assume anything.

[tattooedmonk]

How many CMA schools train their students to deal with an experienced grappler with a solid guard? and how to pass that guard, dealing with the takedown, offense/defense, the mariad mount positions, the pro's and con's of each. etc...Mine does.

[tattooedmonk]

The difference is that the Earth revolving around the Sun can actually be observed, measured, proven. Yeah but it took a long time for it to be accepted and it can be on a much smaller scale. Soon it will be widely known.

[unkokusai]

Yeah but it took a long time for it to be accepted and it can be on a much smaller scale. Soon it will be widely known.

Why not start right now and post up a vid?

[unkokusai]

Mine does.

So, you have experienced grapplers come in and work out with you?

[tattooedmonk]

Why not start right now and post up a vid?I would like to . I am editing video right now . I am having computer problems.

[mantis108]

I was not. I started learning chin na/groundfighting my second class. Now I teach it. I understand degrees of movement are limited on the ground . I do not assume anything.

I am curious as to your background in Chin Na/groundfighting. You mentioned that it was shown to you on the second class. My question is, "by whom?" and "what style?" There are generic Chin Na moves (ie self defense applications) and style specific Chin Na system (ie Eagle Claw, Mantis, etc. ) So knowing these information would help in further discussion before actually seeing your clips. Also I would like to know your approach or philosophy on using Chin Na (ie joint manipulation (both large or small), pain compliance, stunt 'n seize, positional play, etc...)

Regards

Mantis108

[PangQuan]

Mine does.

I'm sorry, this may have been posted else where, however I must regretfully inform you I am a lazy fool :D

where do you train?

[tattooedmonk]

So, you have experienced grapplers come in and work out with you?yes, I have .

I invite them in to supplement our training to just focus in on grappling and groundfighting. Who better to practice with and learn from?? .

Just like Shaolin of old .

I do not believe that there is any shame or dishonor in learning things from other people/ arts and adding them to our training especially because there has been great advancements in grappling ( not that they were not already inherent in the arts but have been rediscovered.)

Hell, jujitsu originally came from China anyway. Now everything can come full circle.

Keep in mind the ground fighting I learned came with the styles I learned originally and I only teach CMA.

Any of you know the Original Shaolin Five Animal form??

Right in that form is a technique called Leopard hangs from the branches . This technique involves the practitioner jumping on someone from the front or behind wrapping their legs around them( tree trunk- cavity press- a chin na technique) and wrapping their arms around them in choke hold ( branches- arms joint locks and neck sealing the breath and veins- more chin na techniques) and then falling to the ground.

Sound familiar??

All the groundfighting techniques are in our forms they just have to be properly broken down to find them . most are very well hidden but through proper movement through each range of motion you can and should be able to find them.

Also in a form I know called Tai Peng Sin Kune( Great bird speads its wings) the opening and closing of the form is a defense against the shoot. ( Sprawl)

[unkokusai]

yes, I have .

I invite them in to supplement our training to just focus in on grappling and groundfighting. Who better to practice with and learn from?? .





Ok, who are they? What is their background?

[unkokusai]

Hell, jujitsu originally came from China anyway.



Hell, we've already discredited that popular myth.

[tattooedmonk]

Hell, we've already discredited that popular myth.Maybe not all styles of ju jitsu came from China but I am sure that many did . What is in a name?? Actually the same characters for Wu Shu and Ju Jitsu are the same.

[tattooedmonk]

Ok, who are they? What is their background?
R.Tanaza he was a a judo/jujitsu champion and was the instructor for the womens olympic Judo team a while back and a Machado.

[bodhitree]

Maybe not all styles of ju jitsu came from China but I am sure that many did . What is in a name?? Actually the same characters for Wu Shu and Ju Jitsu are the same.

not so

the character for Wushu in Japanese reads Bushi (warrior) such as in Bushido (warrior way). So no, the translation of jiu jitsu is NOT EQUAL to wushu.

In mandarin
wu = warrior/martial
shu= art

[bodhitree]

Tatooed monk is pulling at strings. Give it up.

[tattooedmonk]

not so

the character for Wushu in Japanese reads Bushi (warrior) such as in Bushido (warrior way). So no, the translation of jiu jitsu is NOT EQUAL to wushu.

In mandarin
wu = warrior/martial
shu= art wushu in chinese and ju jitsu in japanese.

[bodhitree]

You said:

Actually the same characters for Wu Shu and Ju Jitsu are the same.


which is wrong, and hence why I told you the literal translation. Now, you prove you're not even smart enough to figure that out.



In other words the characters ARE NOT THE SAME.

The characters for wushu in chinese in japanese are bushi, and hence not jiu jitsu. I hope this makes it simple enough for you.

And since it begs the question:

The characters for jujitsu in mandarin are pronounced roushi.

[unkokusai]

What, are we in Brazil? Its jujutsu.

[unkokusai]

I am sure that many did .

No, you're not.

[unkokusai]

R.Tanaza he was a a judo/jujitsu champion.


I see. Of what?

[RonH]

I never said i doubt the validity of ground material within the CMA community, its the utilization and whole sale teaching that is whats rare of said material.

as i posed before, how many CMA schools can claim as solid of a ground/wrestling/submission training program as your standard MMA school can?

if the material is so prevelant within CMA, why arent we seeing this type of ground program as a standard in CMA schools?

its actually quite the opposite. percentile wise, out of 100% of CMA schools, how many of them truly address the ground issue to a full extent. not a half assed attempt but an actual fully developed system akin to BJJ or JJJ. sure you will see an incorporation of many throwing techniques, but often thats where it stops. We dont often see the follow up to the ground. In some cases yes, you do, but in many and i would be tempted to say most cases, you do not see this. And often when you see follow up to the ground, its generally not going to be of the mindset that your opponent will be well versed in a ground game.

Now I have been to my fair share of CMA schools. Maybe its just my side of the country, but rarely do you find a good solid ground system in place at your average kwoon...

this is the level of ground comprehension you generally wont see in a lot of CMA schools. IMO, and from what i have personally seen.

First off, you need to understand the cirriculum of a CMA school. There is both internal and external work that needs to be done and not all teachers are gonna start in the same place. Some will start with the physical movements, some will start with the mental training. Some will say you've got to show up every day for 3 years before they will teach someone new.

Now, take taijiquan. There are many styles (I'm referencing the ones that are actually used for combat, not the ones that put purely dance moves into the routine). Each of the styles are truly no different from each other when you reach a certain level of advancement. Also, you must remember that not every one is gonna advance at the same pace. Eventually, you advance to the level of being 'formless' and what you train mainly on is how you execute the principles behind taijiquan.

Now, if what you want is to learn how to punch and kick and do armbars and stuff like that in the shortest amount of time, go with kickboxing or mixed martial arts. CMAs are not for those that want something fast they can learn in no time. Fighting on the ground is much more dangerous and harder to do than standing up. That's why the introductory work is taught standing up.

You also have to take into account that people often don't have the time to regularly keep up with martial arts training for whatever other reason. If you can't adequately defend yourself in the less dangerous stand up situations, why would any responsible teacher teach CMA groundfighting to them?

To be able to use the taijiquan principles effectively, you must do a complete 180 in comparrison to most other martial arts. The whole point of it is to use as little brute force as possible against all incoming attacks to neutralize and/or redirect them. Another principle is to use as little of your own energy by focusing on being more controlled and deliberate, so your arms aren't bending when you don't want them to or your limbs are flailing about, as you try to make multiple contact hits and kicks. I started in a variation of yang short form. In all, at normal speed, it should take about 7 minutes to do the whole thing. When I was still a novice, I slowed the whole routine down so slow that it took me literally 4 hours just to do 1/3 of the routine. Just as I was nearing the 1/3 mark, I was still feeling the same as when I first started, but I thought I'd stop at the 1/3 mark because I had spent so long on it. Guess what happened? I stopped and dropped to the floor, suddenly becoming overwhelmed with exhaustion. I was so drained of energy, it was hard for me to even think clearly.

If you've done any slow, delibereate training in the styles you've practiced, you know how draining it can be to go slow. That is the kind of control many aspire to. But, it isn't just speed and listening. To make through any kind of real advancement in taijiquan, you need to go further than just 'let the power come from the hips, twist the arm as you punch, make sure you're pushing some with your legs and feet'. Real advancement in taijiquan also requires a certain level of flexibility to be able to absorb some of the energy of an attack into the body without hurting yourself to name just one reason.

You are more likely to be attacked while you and your opponent(s) are standing up than if you are already laying down and they attack. You know it's more dangerous to fight just one person when you're on ground than when standing, so if you can't defend yourself when you're on your feet, how can you hope to achieve victory when you're on the ground?

But, that isn't to say that a system that starts you off with groundfighting is superior because they still aren't starting you off with the necessary groundwork beforehand to make a CMA, like taijiquan, just as effective on the ground and when standing.

Many people that sign up at a CMA are looking for quick fixes or get bored and don't come back, so they never get the whole story. Another reason you don't see much groundfighting is because by the time you would be trained in groundfighting, you've already advanced to the point where you don't need to learn specific moves. You've already done the necessary 'book learning' for what needs to be done in those types of situations and you can practice on your own or request to practice with your instructor. You already understand the principles and underlying tactics that need to be applied when fighting on the ground. I gave one example of such a situation when I spoke of how the black guy could get himself free of the hold the asian guy had him in with that picture from wikipedia.

At the point you become 'formless', the requirement that you need some fully developed system, like BJJ, is irrelevent. You can study and develop your own understanding, but it isn't necessary...as long as you understand the requirements of the style, so they can be applied effectively in new situations.

Edit: There are also school that don't teach the martial side of CMA, but just the health and wellness aspects of it, which is one reason why taijiquan has gotten such a bad rep that it has today. That you can't use it for fighting worth a fu@king thing.

[tattooedmonk]

You said:



which is wrong, and hence why I told you the literal translation. Now, you prove you're not even smart enough to figure that out.



In other words the characters ARE NOT THE SAME.

The characters for wushu in chinese in japanese are bushi, and hence not jiu jitsu. I hope this makes it simple enough for you.

And since it begs the question:

The characters for jujitsu in mandarin are pronounced roushi.Hey if I wanted to hear from and @$$hole I would ****.

I clarified . The Japanese Kanji comes from where?? China. The Chinese characters for wushu are the same for the Japanese charcters for ju jitsu .

Get it now??

They have been changed just like the Japanese kanji for karate.

Get a grip.

[tattooedmonk]

What, are we in Brazil? Its jujutsu.There are many spelling variations .That is the one BJJ adopted and probably the most common.

[bodhitree]

I clarified . The Japanese Kanji comes from where?? China. The Chinese characters for wushu are the same for the Japanese charcters for ju jitsu


Buy a dictionary of kanji and a dictionary of hanzi, then you will see you are wrong. Stupid.

[unkokusai]

There are many spelling variations .



But not all are the correct transliteration of the original word. If you want to transliterate the Portuguese pronunciation of a Japanese word, go for it.

[tattooedmonk]

The Chinese character 柔 (Mandarin: róu; Japanese: jū; Korean: yū) is the same as the first one in 柔道 (Mandarin: róudào; Japanese: judo; Korean: Yudo). The Chinese character 術 (Mandarin: shù; Japanese: jutsu; Korean: sul) is the same as the second one in
術武 (Mandarin: wǔshù; Japanese: bujutsu; Korean: musul)
It has been changed My source for information is dated.
You have to admit that rou and wu coming out of someones mouth will sound the same.:D

[BlueTravesty]

I thought the Japanese for "Wushu" was BUjutsu... at least that's how I've heard it referred to as in the limited amount of Japanese media I've seen on the subject.... the Bu is the same as in BUDO and BUSHIDO.

[tattooedmonk]

But not all are the correct transliteration of the original word. If you want to transliterate the Portuguese pronunciation of a Japanese word, go for it.Jiu-Jitsu, JuJitsu, Ju-Jitsu, Ju- Jutsu, Jiu Jutsu
I do not care . Do you have a preference??

[tattooedmonk]

I thought the Japanese for "Wushu" was BUjutsu... at least that's how I've heard it referred to as in the limited amount of Japanese media I've seen on the subject.... the Bu is the same as in BUDO and BUSHIDO.Yes and what is Bu ??

[bodhitree]

Japanese Kanji: 武士道
Romanization: bushido
Translation: Warrior way


Hanzi (Chinese Character): 武术
Pinyin romanization: Wushu
Translation: Martial/warrior art

Obviosly "武" is not the "ju" from jujitsu.


Now I don't speak or read Japanese but I believe the "ju" from jujitsu is 柔 (pronounced 'rou' in chinese).

[bodhitree]

where do you get wushu is translated as jujitsu? retard.

[unkokusai]

Jiu-Jitsu, JuJitsu, Ju-Jitsu, Ju- Jutsu, Jiu Jutsu
I do not care . Do you have a preference??

Its not a matter of preference, its a matter of accuracy.

[tattooedmonk]

Its not a matter of preference, its a matter of accuracy.okay well then if the characters are the same no matter how you spell it what is the difference as to what it is spelled like in english????

[tattooedmonk]

Japanese Kanji: 武士道
Romanization: bushido
Translation: Warrior way


Hanzi (Chinese Character): 武术
Pinyin romanization: Wushu
Translation: Martial/warrior art

Obviosly "武" is not the "ju" from jujitsu.


Now I don't speak or read Japanese but I believe the "ju" from jujitsu is 柔 (pronounced 'rou' in chinese).This obviosly is not the same but if you look above you will see that the same characters for bu jitsu and wu shu are the same. And what is bu jitsu ?? The name was obviously changed from one to the other when it was demilitarized.

and no that is obviously not the character for ju but it is for jitsu / jutsu meaning what ?? Martial/ War.

ask some one to say rou ju wu and most likely they will sound the same.:D

[unkokusai]

okay well then if the characters are the same no matter how you spell it what is the difference as to what it is spelled like in english????



I didn't realize it was a secret that in the English language spelling is usually representative of pronunciation.


I guess we could just call it FHJVCDDDFHFCSSXFGJK instead.

[tattooedmonk]

I didn't realize it was a secret that in the English language spelling is usually representative of pronunciation.


I guess we could just call it FHJVCDDDFHFCSSXFGJK instead. Answer the question. What is the difference ??? Some people pronounce it one way others another.

It is not like it is spelled Ju jutsu and someone is coming along and spelling it FHJVCDDFHFCSSXFJK. So tell me what is the difference.

They are only slight variations and not extreme like you are making it out to be.

You are causing conflict where does not need to be .

So what is the "REAL AUTHENTIC TRUE WAY to spell it???

[unkokusai]

So tell me what is the difference.?


Only one spelling corresponds to the way that the word is actually pronounced.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jujutsu should be spelled that way, Juijiitsu is an alternate mode, not as "correct".

Bujutsu - Bu = Martial/war, jutsu= techniques
Budo - Bu ( see above), Do - way

Ju = soft, flexable, "to give way"....

[sunfist]

Of course shaolin do has groundfighting. If its been published in a popular instructional text, shaolin do has it.

[bodhitree]

This obviosly is not the same but if you look above you will see that the same characters for bu jitsu and wu shu are the same. And what is bu jitsu ?? The name was obviously changed from one to the other when it was demilitarized.

and no that is obviously not the character for ju but it is for jitsu / jutsu meaning what ?? Martial/ War.

ask some one to say rou ju wu and most likely they will sound the same.:D

If you can't speak/read the languages then don't make stupid comments and argue that you're correct about those stupid arguements.


Back to the point: Where's the vid of you applying you internal principles to groundfighting?

[MasterKiller]

Of course shaolin do has groundfighting. If its been published in a popular instructional text, shaolin do has it.

L M F A O !

[bodhitree]

L M F A O !

Now I'm laughing at myself.

I thought he was using very poor grammar, like "shaolin do" instead of "shaolin does".

Holy crap. This thread is killing me.

[SevenStar]

First off, you need to understand the cirriculum of a CMA school. There is both internal and external work that needs to be done and not all teachers are gonna start in the same place. Some will start with the physical movements, some will start with the mental training. Some will say you've got to show up every day for 3 years before they will teach someone new.

Now, take taijiquan. There are many styles (I'm referencing the ones that are actually used for combat, not the ones that put purely dance moves into the routine). Each of the styles are truly no different from each other when you reach a certain level of advancement. Also, you must remember that not every one is gonna advance at the same pace. Eventually, you advance to the level of being 'formless' and what you train mainly on is how you execute the principles behind taijiquan.

Now, if what you want is to learn how to punch and kick and do armbars and stuff like that in the shortest amount of time, go with kickboxing or mixed martial arts. CMAs are not for those that want something fast they can learn in no time. Fighting on the ground is much more dangerous and harder to do than standing up. That's why the introductory work is taught standing up.

You also have to take into account that people often don't have the time to regularly keep up with martial arts training for whatever other reason. If you can't adequately defend yourself in the less dangerous stand up situations, why would any responsible teacher teach CMA groundfighting to them?

To be able to use the taijiquan principles effectively, you must do a complete 180 in comparrison to most other martial arts. The whole point of it is to use as little brute force as possible against all incoming attacks to neutralize and/or redirect them. Another principle is to use as little of your own energy by focusing on being more controlled and deliberate, so your arms aren't bending when you don't want them to or your limbs are flailing about, as you try to make multiple contact hits and kicks. I started in a variation of yang short form. In all, at normal speed, it should take about 7 minutes to do the whole thing. When I was still a novice, I slowed the whole routine down so slow that it took me literally 4 hours just to do 1/3 of the routine. Just as I was nearing the 1/3 mark, I was still feeling the same as when I first started, but I thought I'd stop at the 1/3 mark because I had spent so long on it. Guess what happened? I stopped and dropped to the floor, suddenly becoming overwhelmed with exhaustion. I was so drained of energy, it was hard for me to even think clearly.

If you've done any slow, delibereate training in the styles you've practiced, you know how draining it can be to go slow. That is the kind of control many aspire to. But, it isn't just speed and listening. To make through any kind of real advancement in taijiquan, you need to go further than just 'let the power come from the hips, twist the arm as you punch, make sure you're pushing some with your legs and feet'. Real advancement in taijiquan also requires a certain level of flexibility to be able to absorb some of the energy of an attack into the body without hurting yourself to name just one reason.

You are more likely to be attacked while you and your opponent(s) are standing up than if you are already laying down and they attack. You know it's more dangerous to fight just one person when you're on ground than when standing, so if you can't defend yourself when you're on your feet, how can you hope to achieve victory when you're on the ground?

But, that isn't to say that a system that starts you off with groundfighting is superior because they still aren't starting you off with the necessary groundwork beforehand to make a CMA, like taijiquan, just as effective on the ground and when standing.

Many people that sign up at a CMA are looking for quick fixes or get bored and don't come back, so they never get the whole story. Another reason you don't see much groundfighting is because by the time you would be trained in groundfighting, you've already advanced to the point where you don't need to learn specific moves. You've already done the necessary 'book learning' for what needs to be done in those types of situations and you can practice on your own or request to practice with your instructor. You already understand the principles and underlying tactics that need to be applied when fighting on the ground. I gave one example of such a situation when I spoke of how the black guy could get himself free of the hold the asian guy had him in with that picture from wikipedia.

At the point you become 'formless', the requirement that you need some fully developed system, like BJJ, is irrelevent. You can study and develop your own understanding, but it isn't necessary...as long as you understand the requirements of the style, so they can be applied effectively in new situations.

Edit: There are also school that don't teach the martial side of CMA, but just the health and wellness aspects of it, which is one reason why taijiquan has gotten such a bad rep that it has today. That you can't use it for fighting worth a fu@king thing.


Okay, so IYHO, what percentage of the taiji population is versed in groundfighting through taiji alone? How many do you personally know and can you point out any examples? And where do you get this quick fix crap from? you may be able to fight quickly with arts like bjj and MT, but to get a black belt in bjj for many people takes around 10 years... MT has no ranks, you just continually train and improve. Where is the quick fix? you guys should actually follow this model. Think of how much better taiji would be known martially if it didn't take a liftetime to be able to fight with it...

[SevenStar]

Maybe not all styles of ju jitsu came from China but I am sure that many did . What is in a name?? Actually the same characters for Wu Shu and Ju Jitsu are the same.

So nobody has proof of this except you? besides the naming issue, what can you cite? Off the top off my head, I can state three to four stories of the origin of jujutsu, only one of which stating that it is of chinese origin - how do we know which, if any are correct? In addition, wrestling arts existed in japan prior to the creation of jujutsu - why wouldn't it have stemmed from those? Not only that, but the story of chinese introduction is that is was brought by gempin - a KEMPO student... that is a striking art. I have also heard that gempin told the japanese physicians that he hadn't learned ANY chinese grappling, only that he had seen it.

[RonH]

Okay, so IYHO, what percentage of the taiji population is versed in groundfighting through taiji alone?

I've never taken a general head count. You've got your health and wellness taijiquan people, you martial with internal work people, your martial without internal work. You've got people at all levels with varying interests in how far they want to go. It's hard to guess. And when you bring in Bagua and Hsing-i, I couldn't even guess less when you try to figure out an estimate when looking to all CMA users.


How many do you personally know and can you point out any examples?

1. I know some, but not all CMA people I know are martial with internal work. I did have one teacher long long ago, but that profe is dead now.
2. If you mean something like a tournament or a vid clip as proof, I don't know of any examples off hand.


And where do you get this quick fix crap from? you may be able to fight quickly with arts like bjj and MT, but to get a black belt in bjj for many people takes around 10 years... MT has no ranks, you just continually train and improve. Where is the quick fix?

If you want something wher you have the basics of how to punch or kick, taking a few classes in kickboxing given at university or at some mixed martial art school can help you get there. To appeal to a wide range of students, including when the class is given at university, it isn't surprising to see the class watered down to the self-defense version of MMA or kickboxing. That's different from a style, like Muay Thai. Like with pretty much every other style, you've got people that water it down even further when they hang their shingle.

Also, learning how to punch and kick at the black belt level is not what I'm saying is a quick fix. I spoke of people coming into taijiquan schools wanting something they can learn quickly and CMA are amongst the hardest styles to learn and execute properly because there is so much more that goes into it.


you guys should actually follow this model.

Learning CMAs is not for the lazy. As with waijia, neijia can be taken as far as the student wishes it to go. Waijia is not immune to this. This is how you get watered down version of kickboxing styles, like Muay Thai.


Think of how much better taiji would be known martially if it didn't take a liftetime to be able to fight with it...

Think of how much better taijiquan would be known martially, if those that didn't practice the art took the time to slow down and focus on practicing the art? Hell, even trying to understand it better on a purely intellectual level and not constantly compare it to external arts, as well as using the time it takes to advance as a marker for how well a style is. For this last one, what you do is say that the best varifyer of a style is how quickly the dumbest person can learn it. It caters to the lowest denomination of the populace. Instead of focusing on how well a style can be used, if executed properly, you put the emphasis on the largest number of people...where the most uncoordinated, most ineffectual fighter is of importance.

With people trying to cram more and more into their day, they cheapen the quality they do things because they are always running behind or never have enough time. The cirriculum for waijia and neijia go in different directions.

If it takes one a lifetime to learn how to fight with an CMA, you should also examine if it's something that the student is doing and not automatically blame the cirriculum or the teacher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In terms of groundfighting skill, take your average CMA person and your average BJJ person, who would "win" on the ground ?

One of the easiest ways ( and in a certain degree best way) to get a read on a system is by the average practioner, not the elite.
The elite would probably do well with anythign they choose.

EX: Average MT practitioner VS average WC guy.

[RonH]

Well, if we're gonna go with averages for both, it could go either way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, if we're gonna go with averages for both, it could go either way.

You think the average CMA has chance VS the average BJJ players on the ground??

[RonH]

You said average.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You said average.

Indeed I did and the question stands...do you?

I will make it easier - 3 years CMA practioner vs 3 year BJJ practioner.
In a ground fighting match - ie: submission grappling, who would win?

[SevenStar]

Also, learning how to punch and kick at the black belt level is not what I'm saying is a quick fix. I spoke of people coming into taijiquan schools wanting something they can learn quickly and CMA are amongst the hardest styles to learn and execute properly because there is so much more that goes into it.

shuai chiao produces fighters quickly. It's not impossible to do.




Learning CMAs is not for the lazy. As with waijia, neijia can be taken as far as the student wishes it to go. Waijia is not immune to this. This is how you get watered down version of kickboxing styles, like Muay Thai.

it's not about watering down. I can take a person and teach him to have workable grappling and muay thai skills in 6 months. No watering down. Just hard, efficient training. He will by no means be a master, but that is why we continue learning. It just doesn't make sense for a style to take a long time to be USEABLE. to master it should indeed take time, however.




Think of how much better taijiquan would be known martially, if those that didn't practice the art took the time to slow down and focus on practicing the art? Hell, even trying to understand it better on a purely intellectual level and not constantly compare it to external arts, as well as using the time it takes to advance as a marker for how well a style is. For this last one, what you do is say that the best varifyer of a style is how quickly the dumbest person can learn it. It caters to the lowest denomination of the populace. Instead of focusing on how well a style can be used, if executed properly, you put the emphasis on the largest number of people...where the most uncoordinated, most ineffectual fighter is of importance.

practicing the art should be paramount. But at the end of the day, it is a MARTIAL art and thus martial improvement should result. you would expect that such a result wouldn't take years to achieve, though mastery of it would.


With people trying to cram more and more into their day, they cheapen the quality they do things because they are always running behind or never have enough time. The cirriculum for waijia and neijia go in different directions.

who said anything about cramming more?


If it takes one a lifetime to learn how to fight with an CMA, you should also examine if it's something that the student is doing and not automatically blame the cirriculum or the teacher.

you stated yourself on another thread that taiji took longer to become a proficient fighter with. Are you now saying that it doesn't?

[SevenStar]

Well, if we're gonna go with averages for both, it could go either way.

when I was training cma, we did some grappling. Then a friend and I bought a copy of "The fighter's notebook" and drilled the techniques in it. We killed the other guys at the school when it came to grappling, just off of what we were learning from the book, with no real instruction, my buddy even managed to triangle choke the sifu. His standup was great, but the chin na didn't transfer to the ground the way we all thought it would.

[RonH]

Indeed I did and the question stands...do you?

Did I not say it could go either way? That's what I meant.


I will make it easier - 3 years CMA practioner vs 3 year BJJ practioner.
In a ground fighting match - ie: submission grappling, who would win?

What you've done is bring about another question entirely. Skill level is not time dependent. You asked for average. An average in a style is based upon the extent of a cirriculum...not time. The intention of what you would like me to answer involves a less than average skilled CMA practioner against an average BJJ practioner. If you want a true average, it must be the average of the extent of the cirriculum.

With CMA teachers, assuming that they do teach both internal and the martial sections, they could start their student anywhere. After 3 years, the CMA student may have 3 years of mental training and has worked to develop a large amount of qi generation, but has yet to be instructed with even the first section of the form of the teacher's particular style (if the teacher trains students with one- some don't, some teach freeform from the beginning), so that energy can be applied with physical movements. The opposite can be true in the reverse, if they work with limbering the body up, but is unable to generate a lot of power, as the internally training one has. A true average would involve the person in question having experience with the movements of the form, as well as some measure of having learned how to generate more energy than they would at rest. Both of the average skilled fighters would also have to have a certain degree of understanding of the basic principles behind their style to begin with and I don't mean a few short sentences to explain the philosophy.

There is something about BJJ I would like to know though. My knowledge of it is limited. Is there any internal work or is it an external art?

[RonH]

when I was training cma, we did some grappling. Then a friend and I bought a copy of "The fighter's notebook" and drilled the techniques in it. We killed the other guys at the school when it came to grappling, just off of what we were learning from the book, with no real instruction, my buddy even managed to triangle choke the sifu. His standup was great, but the chin na didn't transfer to the ground the way we all thought it would.

Without knowing anything about the extent of the Sifu's training, my initial guess would be that the Sifu hasn't spent enough time with chin na. But, that's just him.

[tattooedmonk]

Jujutsu should be spelled that way, Juijiitsu is an alternate mode, not as "correct".

Bujutsu - Bu = Martial/war, jutsu= techniques
Budo - Bu ( see above), Do - way

Ju = soft, flexable, "to give way"....Thank you .

[tattooedmonk]

Of course shaolin do has groundfighting. If its been published in a popular instructional text, shaolin do has it.HAHAH . Whether other masters/ instructors teach it in their schools I do not know but mine did . I had some incredible teachers while I was there. Say what you will of them or me it does not matter because I know the truth.

[tattooedmonk]

Without knowing anything about the extent of the Sifu's training, my initial guess would be that the Sifu hasn't spent enough time with chin na. But, that's just him.Bingo! and just Chin Na alone will not do it. Who would ever think that ??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Did I not say it could go either way? That's what I meant.



What you've done is bring about another question entirely. Skill level is not time dependent. You asked for average. An average in a style is based upon the extent of a cirriculum...not time. The intention of what you would like me to answer involves a less than average skilled CMA practioner against an average BJJ practioner. If you want a true average, it must be the average of the extent of the cirriculum.

With CMA teachers, assuming that they do teach both internal and the martial sections, they could start their student anywhere. After 3 years, the CMA student may have 3 years of mental training and has worked to develop a large amount of qi generation, but has yet to be instructed with even the first section of the form of the teacher's particular style (if the teacher trains students with one- some don't, some teach freeform from the beginning), so that energy can be applied with physical movements. The opposite can be true in the reverse, if they work with limbering the body up, but is unable to generate a lot of power, as the internally training one has. A true average would involve the person in question having experience with the movements of the form, as well as some measure of having learned how to generate more energy than they would at rest. Both of the average skilled fighters would also have to have a certain degree of understanding of the basic principles behind their style to begin with and I don't mean a few short sentences to explain the philosophy.

There is something about BJJ I would like to know though. My knowledge of it is limited. Is there any internal work or is it an external art?

:eek:

You need to brush up on your BJJ and understand what "specialist" means.

[tattooedmonk]

So nobody has proof of this except you? besides the naming issue, what can you cite? Off the top off my head, I can state three to four stories of the origin of jujutsu, only one of which stating that it is of chinese origin - how do we know which, if any are correct? In addition, wrestling arts existed in japan prior to the creation of jujutsu - why wouldn't it have stemmed from those? Not only that, but the story of chinese introduction is that is was brought by gempin - a KEMPO student... that is a striking art. I have also heard that gempin told the japanese physicians that he hadn't learned ANY chinese grappling, only that he had seen it. NO ,I did not say that .

I know that other wrestling arts existed in Japan .

Just like you said what you heard and what you know .

It is hard to say either way.

I believe over time that all the arts have combined and seperated again in all the corners of the world.

I have never known any chinese martialart to just be striking or grappling although parts of the overall sum maybe one or the other or more oe than the other.

To me it stands to reason that if kungfu has stand up fighting then it also has ground fighting . We know that it has striking and grappling.( yin yang princple)

A couple of months ago in black belt magazine they had an article about an ancient weapon used in Ju Jutsu that looks exactly like an emei piercer. What does this mean??

most people only think that Ju Jutsu is ground fighting.

[tattooedmonk]

:eek:

You need to brush up on your BJJ and understand what "specialist" means.This does not answer his question. No where have I read or heard that Ju Jutsu has internal work. Must be secret.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This does not answer his question. No where have I read or heard that Ju Jutsu has internal work. Must be secret.

Dude, he asked wither BJJ had "internal work"...that's like asking of boxing has internal work.

Hence he needs to brush up as to what BJJ is.

[ittokaos]

Why the hell is this discussion in the shaolin forum??? Why hasn't it been moved to the MMA forum yet???

Sidenote: Why is the Shaolin forum always overrun by kempo karate discussions?

[tattooedmonk]

MT and BJJ fighters have a short window of opportunity to prove and practice what they do because before long they are all beat up and can not do it anymore.

Me personally I like practicing and art that is complete and well rounded and that I can practice when I am older .

And do not even say anything about Helio Gracie . He can barely walk let alone really grapple . They let him do all the techniques on them to help him save face and out of respect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why the hell is this discussion in the shaolin forum??? Why hasn't it been moved to the MMA forum yet???

Sidenote: Why is the Shaolin forum always overrun by kempo karate discussions?

LOL !!!
Nice !

[tattooedmonk]

Dude, he asked wither BJJ had "internal work"...that's like asking of boxing has internal work.

Hence he needs to brush up as to what BJJ is.Still does not answer the question. guess you do not know. Any art that you can not do when you get older does not have internal work .

[sanjuro_ronin]

MT and BJJ fighters have a short window of opportunity to prove and practice what they do because before long they are all beat up and can not do it anymore.

Me personally I like practicing and art that is complete and well rounded and that I can practice when I am older .

And do not even say anything about Helio Gracie . He can barely walk let alone really grapple . They let him do all the techniques on them to help him save face and out of respect.

:eek:

Dude...seriously...I am the furthest thing from a MT or BJJ nutrider, though I have done them both and you are not on the ball with that info.
Many Judo guys, after their knees "give out" do to the stress of competition, dedicate themselves to Ne Waza.

[RonH]

shuai chiao produces fighters quickly. It's not impossible to do.

But, it's nothing like taijiquan, bagua or hsing-i.


it's not about watering down. I can take a person and teach him to have workable grappling and muay thai skills in 6 months. No watering down. Just hard, efficient training. He will by no means be a master, but that is why we continue learning. It just doesn't make sense for a style to take a long time to be USEABLE. to master it should indeed take time, however.

That's the thing. Hard, efficient training. How you're defining it ignores the further extent a CMA takes its training. How long it takes to be able to use a CMA effectively depends on the individual.


practicing the art should be paramount. But at the end of the day, it is a MARTIAL art and thus martial improvement should result. you would expect that such a result wouldn't take years to achieve, though mastery of it would.

Martial improvement does happen. All improvements throughout the body contribute to the overall martial improvement.


who said anything about cramming more?

I'm speaking of everything in someone's life in both their professional and personal lives.


you stated yourself on another thread that taiji took longer to become a proficient fighter with. Are you now saying that it doesn't?

No, I'm not. If you hold up the idea that it must take a lifetime to learn a CMA, as a characteristic of typical CMA training, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't take a lifetime to become proficient with it with most people that take it to the level of fighting proficiency. If they are, either the teacher is giving them bad instructions or the student hasn't been able to get their body to work the way it's supposed to. One isn't their fault, another is, barring any medical conditions that would impede their progress.

[tattooedmonk]

Why the hell is this discussion in the shaolin forum??? Why hasn't it been moved to the MMA forum yet???

Sidenote: Why is the Shaolin forum always overrun by kempo karate discussions?because it is about CMA groundfighting. I am a shaolin and kung fu practitioner. That is why it is here.this is not about kempo karate or MMA. Well unless you realize that Shaolin Is MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Still does not answer the question. guess you do not know. Any art that you can not do when you get older does not have internal work .

Of course I answered it, does Boxing have "internal work" ?
NO.
Does BJJ ?
NO.

Need to be stated the obvious much?

[tattooedmonk]

:eek:

Dude...seriously...I am the furthest thing from a MT or BJJ nutrider, though I have done them both and you are not on the ball with that info.
Many Judo guys, after their knees "give out" do to the stress of competition, dedicate themselves to Ne Waza. I did not say you were. This is because of improper training and lack of internal work.

[tattooedmonk]

Of course I answered it, does Boxing have "internal work" ?
NO.
Does BJJ ?
NO.

Need to be stated the obvious much?Thank you .:D Just wanted a straight answer.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did not say you were. This is because of improper training and lack of internal work.

I know MANY Judoka in their 80's that will throw you like a wet noodle.
And you don't even wanna know what they will do to you on the ground.

Your lack of expereince and exposure to these systems is clouding your understanding, perhaps you should learn before you comment.

Maybe your chi is out of balance.

[RonH]

Dude, he asked wither BJJ had "internal work"...that's like asking of boxing has internal work.

Hence he needs to brush up as to what BJJ is.

So, the part where I said my knowledge of BJJ is limited just soared on past you, huh? You couldn't have given me a yes/no answer from the start?

Well, let's say there isn't any, since you say what I asked was like asking if boxing had internal work. You initial question of average BJJ and CMA has 2 different extents with BJJ the far shorter of the 2. That is what your question was asking of.

[tattooedmonk]

I know MANY Judoka in their 80's that will throw you like a wet noodle.
And you don't even wanna know what they will do to you on the ground.

Your lack of expereince and exposure to these systems is clouding your understanding, perhaps you should learn before you comment.

Maybe your chi is out of balance. I did not say anything about judo and I know that there are exeptions to every rule.

[unkokusai]

This is because of improper training and lack of internal work.




Go sober up, ya **** stinkin' hippy. :mad:

[bodhitree]

This does not answer his question. No where have I read or heard that Ju Jutsu has internal work. Must be secret.


Jiu Jitsu doen't need anything internal.

[tattooedmonk]

:eek:
Jiu Jitsu doen't need anything internal.Oh really!?!? HAHAHAHA that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[bodhitree]

:eek:Oh really!?!? HAHAHAHA that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Do you practice jiu jitsu? You are by far the most stupid poster on this forum.

Jiu Jitsu does not need reverse breathing, meditation, or any of the other crap associated with internal martial arts.

Jiu Jitsu (and any activity somebody wants to be good at) requires practice, focus, patience, and other qualities like that .
Football, basketball, and any other activity requires these traits.

[RonH]

Have you even ever tried any of that crap from internal arts?

[bodhitree]

Have you even ever tried any of that crap from internal arts?
Yes. Yes I did. I don't mean to insult IMA. That came out the wrong way. This guy (tatooed monk) is trying to say with little experience you can apply 'internal concepts' to groundfighting. I think the dude is an internet warrior who doesn't have any experience with what he's talking about, and he just plain talks out of his ass (look back at his language arguements).

No disrespect to IMA or IMA practitioners.

[tattooedmonk]

Do you practice jiu jitsu? You are by far the most stupid poster on this forum.

Jiu Jitsu does not need reverse breathing, meditation, or any of the other crap associated with internal martial arts.

Jiu Jitsu (and any activity somebody wants to be good at) requires practice, focus, patience, and other qualities like that .
Football, basketball, and any other activity requires these traits.Yes, I have.

Think what you like.

Guess you know nothing about the benefits of any of this!?!?! You think it is all crap ?? Probably because you can not do it!! Just like most other martial artist, that is why they talk
sh!t about it.

These are the basic superficial aspects of any activity but to get into the more profound aspects there has to be something more to it .

Yeah what is the longevity of anyone who practices these sports /activities to any "high level" ??

[tattooedmonk]

Yes. Yes I did. I don't mean to insult IMA. That came out the wrong way. This guy (tatooed monk) is trying to say with little experience you can apply 'internal concepts' to groundfighting. I think the dude is an internet warrior who doesn't have any experience with what he's talking about, and he just plain talks out of his ass (look back at his language arguements).

No disrespect to IMA or IMA practitioners. Little experience??

HAHA

You have your head so far up your @$$ you do not know where you begin or end.

You think huh?? Maybe that is your problem.

Just because you and your little friends disagree with what is being discussed here does not make it true.

What a B!tch.

[tattooedmonk]

Have you even ever tried any of that crap from internal arts?
I doubt it . He does not know the first thing about REAL internal martial arts.

[bodhitree]

I doubt it . He does not know the first thing about REAL internal martial arts.

yeah, you are showing the true example of someone using taoist principles. Just look at the posts you make, I can see the wisdom. Oh wait, you know TRUE internal martial arts.


Yeah, I envy you.

[unkokusai]

Think what you like.




Ok, I think you're a dopey LARPer.

[RonH]

Okay, guys, maybe we should all on both sides take a couple of days and hit the heavy bag to let out some of this agression, so we can save on the level of vitriol in the thread? There was substance at the beginning and it moved to substance with vitriol and now it's closing ever further to almost entirely vitriol.

[Royal Dragon]

Also, learning how to punch and kick at the black belt level is not what I'm saying is a quick fix. I spoke of people coming into taijiquan schools wanting something they can learn quickly and CMA are amongst the hardest styles to learn and execute properly because there is so much more that goes into it.

Reply]
No, there is not so much more that goes into it. The Chinese DRAG out the training by designe becasue they don't want to teach anyone the real goods outside of good friends and family.

Yes, properly taught it will take longer to be able to actually fight with in internal style like Taiji Quan, but that is because there are some really specific types of body mechanics involved that just plain take time to get right. HOWEVER, one can take Taiji techniques and fight with them externaly and make them work pretty quick...you just wouldn't be doing Taiji at that point (infact, Northern Hong Quan is jut that, Taiji minus the refined internal mechanics).

If you do some historical research, and look back before forms were mainstream, you will see that Kung Fu was taught Basics and fundementals first, then lots of usage (Strategy, two man work, sparring etc...). if you teach Kung Fu the way it was ORIGINALLY taught, your students will learn to fight really fast...at least as fast as modern MMA guys...who btw, are actually *Using* the ancient training formulas that Kung Fu forgot.

Do you really think someone in the olden times would rely on an fighting method that took years to make work, when danger was ever present RIGHT NOW?!?

[bakxierboxer]

[I]Do you really think someone in the olden times would rely on an fighting method that took years to make work, when danger was ever present RIGHT NOW?!?

Well!
Look who's back!
It. it.it sure looks like ROYAL DRAGON his own self!
(and not no hokey R2D2-dude)
(well, ok, "reasonable stand-in" R2D2-dude)

[tattooedmonk]

yeah, you are showing the true example of someone using taoist principles. Just look at the posts you make, I can see the wisdom. Oh wait, you know TRUE internal martial arts.


Yeah, I envy you.Thanks , you should.

[tattooedmonk]

Ok, I think you're a dopey LARPer. HAHAHA is there a definition that comes with that ?? Meaning I have heard of martial larpist and stuff like that but to me it sounds like you and your friends here are exactly that.

[bodhitree]

You have done nothing on this thread but make unsubstanciated claims and spread wrong information. In case you couldn't figure it out, that comment was sarcastic.

[tattooedmonk]

You have done nothing on this thread but make unsubstanciated claims and spread wrong information. In case you couldn't figure it out, that comment was sarcastic.Oh okay, and you are the formost authority on everything and because you and a couple of knuckleheads say it is true or untrue than it must be, right??

I understand sarcasm , but it should be actually the way you think and feel about this discussion.

So ALL of my claims are unsubstantiated and ALL I have done is spread wrong information??

Just your opinion as well as the other people that agree with you, but as you can see I am not alone in my knowledge and beliefs.

[unkokusai]

HAHAHA is there a definition that comes with that ??



You are the definition, Obi-Wan. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

術武 (Mandarin: wǔshù; Japanese: bujutsu; Korean: musul) They all mean warrior or martial arts. This is the version of what was used by the Japanese prior to the demilitarization of what it now known as ju jutsu.

[tattooedmonk]

You are the definition, Obi-Wan. :rolleyes:That means nothing to me.

[boshea]

Have you even ever tried any of that crap from internal arts?

Yes. Yes I did. I don't mean to insult IMA. That came out the wrong way. This guy (tatooed monk) is trying to say with little experience you can apply 'internal concepts' to groundfighting. I think the dude is an internet warrior who doesn't have any experience with what he's talking about, and he just plain talks out of his ass (look back at his language arguements).

No disrespect to IMA or IMA practitioners.

Little experience??

HAHA

You have your head so far up your @$$ you do not know where you begin or end.

You think huh?? Maybe that is your problem.

Just because you and your little friends disagree with what is being discussed here does not make it true.

What a B!tch.


I am enjoying this thread in a masochistic sort of way, but (and I mean no disrespect to any of you), I find it most amusing that most of the arguing is being done by people named "tattooedmonk" and "bodhitree". Especially no offense intended to bodhitree because we have spoken before and I know that you are a reasonable person. I'm just finding irony in the nature of the discussion, and its juxtapositon with these names, and I thought I'd point it out for all of our amusement. Again, no offense intended.

Peace everybody! :)
-b

[bodhitree]

術武 (Mandarin: wǔshù; Japanese: bujutsu; Korean: musul) They all mean warrior or martial arts. This is the version of what was used by the Japanese prior to the demilitarization of what it now known as ju jutsu.

You got the characters backwards, that says shuwu, you linguistic expert. You said the characters for wushu=jujitsu, which is not accurate. You are still on this topic acting like you know something about it. Go die.

[bodhitree]

I am enjoying this thread in a masochistic sort of way, but (and I mean no disrespect to any of you), I find it most amusing that most of the arguing is being done by people named "tattooedmonk" and "bodhitree". Especially no offense intended to bodhitree because we have spoken before and I know that you are a reasonable person. I'm just finding irony in the nature of the discussion, and its juxtapositon with these names, and I thought I'd point it out for all of our amusement. Again, no offense intended.

Peace everybody! :)
-b

Your absolutely right. I can't stop myself from letting this guy know what I think about him. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just one thing, if you are gonna "rag" on IMA, don't pick medititation and reverse breathing as examples of how they are "bad".
Those are two of the things that ANYONE can benefit from.

[TenTigers]

three things:
1-Jiujutsu is internal Hakko-Ryu Jiujutsu, one of the two systems that branched off from Daito Ryu Aikijiujutsu (the other being Uyeshiba's Aikido) focuses very much on internal.
2-Chinese Ji (ideograms) can be read left to right, right to left, and top to bottom.
3-Shuai-Jiao has internal as well, and is a complex, comprehensive art, encompassing striking,kicking,chin-na(locking,breaking,choking,etc),throws, standing grappling, as well as groundfighting, and is not simply a throwing art as is usually portrayed.
-my.02

[bodhitree]

2-Chinese Ji (ideograms) can be read left to right, right to left, and top to bottom.



While this is true right to left is most common, don't believe me then pick up a chinese newspaper and ask a chinese person which direction they read it.


also, he transcribed wushu, left to write to do an accurate transcription he should have wrote shuwu (what appeared).


When I talk about Jiu Jitsu on this thread, I am talking about BJJ. This thread is about groundwork (I know many JJJ styles also have groundwork, but BJJ seems to have developed it the most).

[MasterKiller]

When I talk about Jiu Jitsu on this thread, I am talking about BJJ. This thread is about groundwork (I know many JJJ styles also have groundwork, but BJJ seems to have developed it the most).

BJJ is not the only ground fighting system in the world. I don't think you have to limit ground training to BJJ-specific techniques.

[bodhitree]

BJJ is not the only ground fighting system in the world. I don't think you have to limit ground training to BJJ-specific techniques.

As a Judo practitioner I beg to agree.

[TenTigers]

I have to dissagree with you on the point that BJJ has developed it most. BJJ is only a very small portion of the ne-waza from Judo.

Go to youtube and punch in ne-waza. There is a tournament that has some of the most devastating ne-waza. One guy does a beautiful flying triangle, another guy literally cartwheels out of a throw into a reversal. Insane stuff. The japanese guy totally choking out the other guy is priceless!..but I digress...

BJJ is a specialization.(My Dad said,"A specialist is someone who learns more and more, about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing")
Gracie took a handfull of ne-waza and developed his system from this. I am not saying this is bad-"Do not fear the man who claims to know a thousand techniques. Rather, fear the man who knows ONE technique, and has practiced it a thousand times." But BJJ lacks a stand-up game,standing locks, and throws.
Again, learning a handfull of chokes, armbars, and ground n pound is a beautiful thing.

[TenTigers]

Go to Chinatown and the signs are right to left, left to right, up-to down, I think if you were Chinese and dyslexic, you would go completely mad.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have to dissagree with you on the point that BJJ has developed it most. BJJ is only a very small portion of the ne-waza from Judo.

Go to youtube and punch in ne-waza. There is a tournament that has some of the most devastating ne-waza. One guy does a beautiful flying triangle, another guy literally cartwheels out of a throw into a reversal. Insane stuff. The japanese guy totally choking out the other guy is priceless!..but I digress...

BJJ is a specialization.(My Dad said,"A specialist is someone who learns more and more, about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing")
Gracie took a handfull of ne-waza and developed his system from this. I am not saying this is bad-"Do not fear the man who claims to know a thousand techniques. Rather, fear the man who knows ONE technique, and has practiced it a thousand times." But BJJ lacks a stand-up game,standing locks, and throws.
Again, learning a handfull of chokes, armbars, and ground n pound is a beautiful thing.

What I have seen of Kosen Judo makes me "prefer" it to BJJ in terms of GI grappling, but personal preferences are just that.

I remember when the Gracies "said" they invented the traingle choke ( sankuku-jime ) and many believed them, irregardless of what was on page 200? of Best Judo.
Or the fact that Mifune says HE invented it in "the canon of judo".

BJJ is a highly specialised system of ground fighting, granted that GJJ has striking and throws and stuff, I don't think anyoen would ever suggest going to GJJ or BJJ to learn anyhting BUT ground grappling.

Specialization has ist pro's and con's, one can argue that the opposite makes you a "jack of all trades and master of none".

Fact is, and this has been proven quite firmly that, specialization in one system PLUS ability to use other systems, is the key to an effective MA.

Or whichever you you prefer to word what I just said.

[tattooedmonk]

three things:
1-Jiujutsu is internal Hakko-Ryu Jiujutsu, one of the two systems that branched off from Daito Ryu Aikijiujutsu (the other being Uyeshiba's Aikido) focuses very much on internal.
2-Chinese Ji (ideograms) can be read left to right, right to left, and top to bottom.
3-Shuai-Jiao has internal as well, and is a complex, comprehensive art, encompassing striking,kicking,chin-na(locking,breaking,choking,etc),throws, standing grappling, as well as groundfighting, and is not simply a throwing art as is usually portrayed.
-my.02Thanks. I did not know this about the first one. except for the fact that aikido was an internal art. The second two I did . My Ba gua is shuai jiao based.

[TenTigers]

"Or whichever you you prefer to word what I just said."
ok...I was with you up till there....?

[tattooedmonk]

You got the characters backwards, that says shuwu, you linguistic expert. You said the characters for wushu=jujitsu, which is not accurate. You are still on this topic acting like you know something about it. Go die.As you can see in post 116 I indicated as to which ones were which.

[SevenStar]

I have to dissagree with you on the point that BJJ has developed it most. BJJ is only a very small portion of the ne-waza from Judo.

Go to youtube and punch in ne-waza. There is a tournament that has some of the most devastating ne-waza. One guy does a beautiful flying triangle, another guy literally cartwheels out of a throw into a reversal. Insane stuff. The japanese guy totally choking out the other guy is priceless!..but I digress...

BJJ is a specialization.(My Dad said,"A specialist is someone who learns more and more, about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing")
Gracie took a handfull of ne-waza and developed his system from this. I am not saying this is bad-"Do not fear the man who claims to know a thousand techniques. Rather, fear the man who knows ONE technique, and has practiced it a thousand times." But BJJ lacks a stand-up game,standing locks, and throws.
Again, learning a handfull of chokes, armbars, and ground n pound is a beautiful thing.

I would actually agree with bodhitree there. Judo does have ne waza, but when you go to the many judo clubs, what are they training most of the time? standup. When you are in shiai and go to the ground, what happens after about 10 seconds if no progress is being made? they stand you back up. to compare the extent of groundwork done in bjj vs judo is like saying kung fu is on par with them because it has grappling in the forms - there is no comparison there. Even judo clubs that do a lot of ground work (one of the clubs I attend spends 15-20 mins of each class on the ground) the majority is still standup, as opposed to bjj, which is the opposite. As this thread is about groundwork, your standup reference really has no relevance, though today's bjj DOES have many of the same takedowns you find in wrestling, rounding out its standup component.

When it comes to the innovation of the ground game, bjj has gotten light years beyond judo, though they do share most of the same techniques.

[SevenStar]

Go to Chinatown and the signs are right to left, left to right, up-to down, I think if you were Chinese and dyslexic, you would go completely mad.:D

That is the most hilarious ish I have read on here in a long time!

[GeneChing]

...it really belongs in the MMA forum, don't you think?

[MasterKiller]

...it really belongs in the MMA forum, don't you think?

If only someone else had the power to move MMA threads...say, a moderator on the MMA forum...:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

MT and BJJ fighters have a short window of opportunity to prove and practice what they do because before long they are all beat up and can not do it anymore.

Me personally I like practicing and art that is complete and well rounded and that I can practice when I am older .

And do not even say anything about Helio Gracie . He can barely walk let alone really grapple . They let him do all the techniques on them to help him save face and out of respect.

That is utter BS. One of my judo coaches is over 80. he still rolls with us. the mistake people make is confusing fight career with fight training. At 80, my judo coach cannot compete anymore - he couldn't keep up with the younger guys. However, he regularly rolls with us on 5 minute intervals and has no problem at all. He will train until the day he dies, though he can no longer reasonably compete. Same with muay thai. George foreman may be too old to compete with younger, equally trained boxers, but I would bet money that he would still school pretty much anyone on this forum. Same with tyson or any other retired or soon to retire boxer.

it's not uncommon for a thai fighter in thailand to have had 100 fights by the time he's 21 - THAT - is why it seems there fight careers are so short. How many ring fights did you have by the time YOU were 21? does that mean they can no longer train? How old is chai sirisute? He is still fast as lighting, still an awesome fighter, and he had over 70 fights before he stopped...

[tattooedmonk]

...it really belongs in the MMA forum, don't you think?No ,I put it here because Shaolin as well as other styles of Kung Fu have Groundfighting . These guys have tried to turn this into a MMA thread.

[tattooedmonk]

That is utter BS. One of my judo coaches is over 80. he still rolls with us. Look at helio. the mistake people make is confusing fight career with fight training. At 80, my judo coach cannot compete anymore - he couldn't keep up with the younger guys. However, he regularly rolls with us on 5 minute intervals and has no problem at all. He will train until the day he dies, though he can no longer reasonably compete. Same with muay thai. George foreman may be too old to compete with younger, equally trained boxers, but I would bet money that he would still school pretty much anyone on this forum. Same with tyson or any other retired or soon to retire boxer.

it's not uncommon for a thai fighter in thailand to have had 100 fights by the time he's 21 - THAT - is why it seems there fight careers are so short. How many ring fights did you have by the time YOU were 21? does that mean they can no longer train? How old is chai sirisute? He is still fast as lighting, still an awesome fighter, and he had over 70 fights before he stopped...I also stated later that there are exceptions to every rule.

[SevenStar]

To me it stands to reason that if kungfu has stand up fighting then it also has ground fighting . We know that it has striking and grappling.( yin yang princple)

where is it, other than dog boxing?


A couple of months ago in black belt magazine they had an article about an ancient weapon used in Ju Jutsu that looks exactly like an emei piercer. What does this mean??

that people think alike. reverse punch, cross; claymore, broadsword, etc. cultures may be different but they are all human with human bodies. they all move the same, thus naturally strikes are gonna be the same. On the same token people will have weapons fitting to the usage of those same bodies.


most people only think that Ju Jutsu is ground fighting.

not the ones I know... they think JIU JITSU is all ground fighting, but know that jujutsu involves more.

[SevenStar]

I also stated later that there are exceptions to every rule.

I know you did; that is what I am disputing. Why would you think they are exceptions? I know ALOT of older guys who trained kung fu and / or karate when they were younger, but no longer do. They are still capable, but choose not to train anymore. I think that is what you are confusing here. It is not a rare exception for an old guy to still be able to train judo. He may not choose to, but he definitely is not incapable. Chai himself will even tell you that there are a lot of guys in thailand in their mid 30s who still fight, although the "norm" seems to be early 20s. Like I said, these guys are not exceptions.

[SevenStar]

No ,I put it here because Shaolin as well as other styles of Kung Fu have Groundfighting . These guys have tried to turn this into a MMA thread.

It's not that we made it about mma, it's that you asked what people thought about cma ground fighting. We told you it was virtually non-existant, and the replies from you kept the thread going. LOL, this thread actually should have ended on the first page. Even mantis108, who If I am not mistaken was born, raised and trained in taiwan is pretty much agreeing with us and asked who you trained under (which I don't think you have answered yet.)

[tattooedmonk]

I know you did; that is what I am disputing. Why would you think they are exceptions? I know ALOT of older guys who trained kung fu and / or karate when they were younger, but no longer do. They are still capable, but choose not to train anymore. I think that is what you are confusing here. It is not a rare exception for an old guy to still be able to train judo. He may not choose to, but he definitely is not incapable. Chai himself will even tell you that there are a lot of guys in thailand in their mid 30s who still fight, although the "norm" seems to be early 20s. Like I said, these guys are not exceptions. Yes, they are because the percentage of the guys that do compared to the guys who do not are far less. I would say only a percent. I also stated that it was because of improper training and lack of internal work.

[SevenStar]

Yes, they are because the percentage of the guys that do compared to the guys who do not are far less. I would say only a percent. I also stated that it was because of improper training and lack of internal work.

What I am saying is that you can't make that assumption. If I am 80, I may just decide I have other things to do with my time than train judo or any other style. Like I said, I know old guys who trained cma and karate when they were younger. Improper training doesn't stop them from doing it now, they just choose not to.

Now, to prove your point, find or conduct a study of the old guys who no longer train due to improper training vs the ones who simply chose to stop.

[tattooedmonk]

It's not that we made it about mma, it's that you asked what people thought about cma ground fighting. We told you it was virtually non-existant, and the replies from you kept the thread going. LOL, this thread actually should have ended on the first page. Even mantis108, who If I am not mistaken was born, raised and trained in taiwan is pretty much agreeing with us and asked who you trained under (which I don't think you have answered yet.)We who ?? Only about a handful. In addition you were all argueing that it did not when obviously people in the know have posted that yes there is.

How many members are on this forum??

I am not new to martial arts or this forum.

Why would you think that I should just take your words for it ,especially seeing as I already know that CMA has powerful ground fighting techniques?

Just because you and your friends think it does not ,does not make it true .

You should get a hold on your ego.

So what if Mantis 108 was born , raised ,and trained in Taiwan, this means nothing!

I partially answered as to whom I have trained with . My current teachers and master are my business . I know how the people in this forum knock everyone else's teachers so I am not going to go there.

Just in case you missed it I was first introduced to CMA through CSC /SD.
I studied with Master Sin/ DS and SS for about 15 years.

[unkokusai]

Just because you and your friends think it does not ,does not make it true .

You should get a hold on your ego.

*ahem* Funny you should say that...

[tattooedmonk]

What I am saying is that you can't make that assumption. If I am 80, I may just decide I have other things to do with my time than train judo or any other style. Like I said, I know old guys who trained cma and karate when they were younger. Improper training doesn't stop them from doing it now, they just choose not to.

Now, to prove your point, find or conduct a study of the old guys who no longer train due to improper training vs the ones who simply chose to stop. Key word being MAY.

That is not what I am saying . If you have a choice and you choose not to is something different.
For most people that stop training atthat age, who have been training since they were young it is because their bodies can no longer take the abuse and misuse. Hell most of them have to quit before that.

Like I said choosing not to because you have other things to do is something different.

Most of the peole that I know that have stopped training is because of the damage that they have done to their bodies, not for a lack of wanting to train .

They all said that it was improper training and lack of internal work .

Like you said guys you know ....I know different guys.:D

[tattooedmonk]

*ahem* Funny you should say that...Well for one, these are fellow CMArtist and not rasslin , grappling guys, or what have you who are substantiating what it is that I am saying.

Most of the guys that are saying it does not are not CMA. At least that is what their profiles say and from their responses I was able to tell anyway.

Second I have a loose grip on my ego, but I still have a hold of it.:D

[boshea]

Your absolutely right. I can't stop myself from letting this guy know what I think about him. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

By the way, I don't really blame you. This is getting a bit out of hand though.

How did this thread start? Something about ground fighting in CMA... ;)

Metta
-b

[tattooedmonk]

By the way, I don't really blame you. This is getting a bit out of hand though.

How did this thread start? Something about ground fighting in CMA... ;)

Metta
-b Where do you train Shaolin??

[PangQuan]

First off, you need to understand the cirriculum of a CMA school. There is both internal and external work that needs to be done and not all teachers are gonna start in the same place. Some will start with the physical movements, some will start with the mental training. Some will say you've got to show up every day for 3 years before they will teach someone new.

Now, take taijiquan. There are many styles (I'm referencing the ones that are actually used for combat, not the ones that put purely dance moves into the routine). Each of the styles are truly no different from each other when you reach a certain level of advancement. Also, you must remember that not every one is gonna advance at the same pace. Eventually, you advance to the level of being 'formless' and what you train mainly on is how you execute the principles behind taijiquan.

Now, if what you want is to learn how to punch and kick and do armbars and stuff like that in the shortest amount of time, go with kickboxing or mixed martial arts. CMAs are not for those that want something fast they can learn in no time. Fighting on the ground is much more dangerous and harder to do than standing up. That's why the introductory work is taught standing up.

You also have to take into account that people often don't have the time to regularly keep up with martial arts training for whatever other reason. If you can't adequately defend yourself in the less dangerous stand up situations, why would any responsible teacher teach CMA groundfighting to them?

To be able to use the taijiquan principles effectively, you must do a complete 180 in comparrison to most other martial arts. The whole point of it is to use as little brute force as possible against all incoming attacks to neutralize and/or redirect them. Another principle is to use as little of your own energy by focusing on being more controlled and deliberate, so your arms aren't bending when you don't want them to or your limbs are flailing about, as you try to make multiple contact hits and kicks. I started in a variation of yang short form. In all, at normal speed, it should take about 7 minutes to do the whole thing. When I was still a novice, I slowed the whole routine down so slow that it took me literally 4 hours just to do 1/3 of the routine. Just as I was nearing the 1/3 mark, I was still feeling the same as when I first started, but I thought I'd stop at the 1/3 mark because I had spent so long on it. Guess what happened? I stopped and dropped to the floor, suddenly becoming overwhelmed with exhaustion. I was so drained of energy, it was hard for me to even think clearly.

If you've done any slow, delibereate training in the styles you've practiced, you know how draining it can be to go slow. That is the kind of control many aspire to. But, it isn't just speed and listening. To make through any kind of real advancement in taijiquan, you need to go further than just 'let the power come from the hips, twist the arm as you punch, make sure you're pushing some with your legs and feet'. Real advancement in taijiquan also requires a certain level of flexibility to be able to absorb some of the energy of an attack into the body without hurting yourself to name just one reason.

You are more likely to be attacked while you and your opponent(s) are standing up than if you are already laying down and they attack. You know it's more dangerous to fight just one person when you're on ground than when standing, so if you can't defend yourself when you're on your feet, how can you hope to achieve victory when you're on the ground?

But, that isn't to say that a system that starts you off with groundfighting is superior because they still aren't starting you off with the necessary groundwork beforehand to make a CMA, like taijiquan, just as effective on the ground and when standing.

Many people that sign up at a CMA are looking for quick fixes or get bored and don't come back, so they never get the whole story. Another reason you don't see much groundfighting is because by the time you would be trained in groundfighting, you've already advanced to the point where you don't need to learn specific moves. You've already done the necessary 'book learning' for what needs to be done in those types of situations and you can practice on your own or request to practice with your instructor. You already understand the principles and underlying tactics that need to be applied when fighting on the ground. I gave one example of such a situation when I spoke of how the black guy could get himself free of the hold the asian guy had him in with that picture from wikipedia.

At the point you become 'formless', the requirement that you need some fully developed system, like BJJ, is irrelevent. You can study and develop your own understanding, but it isn't necessary...as long as you understand the requirements of the style, so they can be applied effectively in new situations.

Edit: There are also school that don't teach the martial side of CMA, but just the health and wellness aspects of it, which is one reason why taijiquan has gotten such a bad rep that it has today. That you can't use it for fighting worth a fu@king thing.

this is something we should all know already...

beating around the bush and not addressing what i am talking about. which is NOT the element of groundfighting being within the vast network of CMA knowledge, rather, the whole sale practice of this hidden, forbiden?? knowledge...I am a CMA practitioner, I also feel there is a lot of work that translates to the ground, but at the same time, when you are on the ground certain elements need to change, as a very important element of the fight has actually changed, IE stand up to ground.

you talk about the road and path and time it takes to reach a point where one should be formless and able to adjust to any situation, because they have 'mastered' thier art.

show me the schools that have the instructors already at this level, that have developed a solid ground game, AND have a format in place to address the ground element.

the THEORY that everything translates to the ground is all well and good, WHEN YOU PRACITCE THE THEORY REGULARLY, otherwise its simply words with no experience to back them. hence, no realy ground knowledge other than theorized translations from stand up to the mat.

we all have heard a zillion times the post i am responding to in a zillion different words, and every time its just to ignore the real issue, feeding info to the thread that is common sense and basic, easily aquired information. just takes a few years to see what your talking about and understand the principles behind it.

still, show me the CMA schools that practice what you preach

I'm not trying to dispute the ability and information being available within the entire context of CMA, rather im disputing the fact that many CMA schools practice and work the ground element to the point of profeciency. Profeciency on the ground being the ability to compete on a scale akin to the most popular formats that are heavy on ground fighting, in other words MMA. This includes External schools as well as Internal. you will find claims that "we have groundfighting in kungfu" more from external schools who are adament that their chin na is easily transfered to the ground, yet when you ask how often they focus on that aspect and actually take it to the ground....the room clears and you hear crickets.

now you will notice i am not saying NO schools do this, but that MOST do not.

[unkokusai]

Well for one, these are fellow CMArtist and not rasslin , grappling guys, or what have you who are substantiating what it is that I am saying.

Most of the guys that are saying it does not are not CMA. At least that is what their profiles say and from their responses I was able to tell anyway.

Yeah, no one who is mainly a grappler has any idea about or experience with anything else. :rolleyes:

Only LARPing fantasy-enthusiasts like yourself have "teh truth!"

[SevenStar]

We who ?? Only about a handful. In addition you were all argueing that it did not when obviously people in the know have posted that yes there is.

How many members are on this forum??

I am not new to martial arts or this forum.

Why would you think that I should just take your words for it ,especially seeing as I already know that CMA has powerful ground fighting techniques?

Just because you and your friends think it does not ,does not make it true .

You should get a hold on your ego.

So what if Mantis 108 was born , raised ,and trained in Taiwan, this means nothing!

I partially answered as to whom I have trained with . My current teachers and master are my business . I know how the people in this forum knock everyone else's teachers so I am not going to go there.

Just in case you missed it I was first introduced to CMA through CSC /SD.
I studied with Master Sin/ DS and SS for about 15 years.


You seem to have the ego issue, not me. you are also the one making blanket assumptions (the age issue) with no actual proof of what you speak. However, since you are talking about exceptions, considering the majority of cma seems to lack a ground grappling component, I would say that puts whatever you are claiming in the minority.

as for my point with mantis108, he stated that "rolling on the ground" is looked down upon by chinese culture, as it is ungentlemanly. IMO, this would explain much of why you don't see ground grappling in CMA, but rather, strikes and takedowns that are geared toward getting back to your feet.

My guess (notice I said guess) is that people have since tried to translate some of the standup to the ground, but I question whether that was its original intent.

[SevenStar]

Key word being MAY.

That is not what I am saying . If you have a choice and you choose not to is something different.
For most people that stop training atthat age, who have been training since they were young it is because their bodies can no longer take the abuse and misuse. Hell most of them have to quit before that.

Like I said choosing not to because you have other things to do is something different.

Most of the peole that I know that have stopped training is because of the damage that they have done to their bodies, not for a lack of wanting to train .

They all said that it was improper training and lack of internal work .

Like you said guys you know ....I know different guys.:D


so you have run into a bunch of guys with improper training. that doesn't make he ones we speak of the exceptions. the one you know may well be the exceptions...

[PangQuan]

I already know that CMA has powerful ground fighting techniques?



this is just it, and what i have been trying to get to.

I will agree, I have seen some seriously devestating techniques performed on the ground via CMA.

YET, that is the problem. going from standing and all the elements that can make a fight go to the ground, the most important being: your opponent takes you down on purpose because that is where he fights best.

being able to perform nasty techniques, and having the knowledge to apply these to a very experienced and knowledgable RESISTING fighter are two totally different things.

Its this intimate knowledge CMA, for the most part, lacks. all the in betweens from the stand up to the submission/break. Sure you may see ground elements in form (trying not to laugh), I say trying not to laugh because having a tech in a form and knowing how to use them against a grappler are not even in the same ball park.

So, having the tools and knowing how to use them, two elements that are BOTH required to understand groundfighting, are more often than not kept seperate in CMA schools. the latter actually often times being completely ignored....

[PangQuan]

My guess (notice I said guess) is that people have since tried to translate some of the standup to the ground, but I question whether that was its original intent.

I would go out on a limb and say thats a pretty good guess...

although im guessing too since none of use actually have ancient chinese memories to pull experience from...

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, no one who is mainly a grappler has any idea about or experience with anything else. :rolleyes:

Only LARPing fantasy-enthusiasts like yourself have "teh truth!"Not what I said. like I said think what you want about me. You are now just looking for problems.

[SevenStar]

Well for one, these are fellow CMArtist and not rasslin , grappling guys, or what have you who are substantiating what it is that I am saying.

Most of the guys that are saying it does not are not CMA. At least that is what their profiles say and from their responses I was able to tell anyway.

Second I have a loose grip on my ego, but I still have a hold of it.:D

MK used to train cma. I used to train cma. pang quan is a cma. didn't bodhitree used to train cma? mantis108 has always been cma. knifefighter used to train cma. lkfmdc has always been cma. ST00 used to train cma. GDA used to train cma. Alot of the people here used to train / still train cma, yet still debate the ground grappling in cma issue on various threads.

[tattooedmonk]

You seem to have the ego issue, not me. you are also the one making blanket assumptions (the age issue) with no actual proof of what you speak. However, since you are talking about exceptions, considering the majority of cma seems to lack a ground grappling component, I would say that puts whatever you are claiming in the minority.

as for my point with mantis108, he stated that "rolling on the ground" is looked down upon by chinese culture, as it is ungentlemanly. IMO, this would explain much of why you don't see ground grappling in CMA, but rather, strikes and takedowns that are geared toward getting back to your feet.

My guess (notice I said guess) is that people have since tried to translate some of the standup to the ground, but I question whether that was its original intent. You have an ego problem if you think I was just supposed to take a few peoples word about the subject , stick my head up my @$$, and forget what it is that I know to be contrary to what you have been saying.

You took what I said out of context just to create an argument.

I already stated that it was almost unknown or lost art in most CMA schools.

I am already aware of many reasons as to why it is not practiced or taught in many schools.

[tattooedmonk]

so you have run into a bunch of guys with improper training. that doesn't make he ones we speak of the exceptions. the one you know may well be the exceptions...No ,I would say that the vast majority of martial artist train their bodies improperly ( none of my masters ever have )and why you do not see many people practicing in old age ,not because they choose not to because they have better things to do. Especially for a true CMA practitioner. For us it is a way of life not a hobby or sport..

[tattooedmonk]

this is just it, and what i have been trying to get to.

I will agree, I have seen some seriously devestating techniques performed on the ground via CMA.

YET, that is the problem. going from standing and all the elements that can make a fight go to the ground, the most important being: your opponent takes you down on purpose because that is where he fights best.

being able to perform nasty techniques, and having the knowledge to apply these to a very experienced and knowledgable RESISTING fighter are two totally different things.

Its this intimate knowledge CMA, for the most part, lacks. all the in betweens from the stand up to the submission/break. Sure you may see ground elements in form (trying not to laugh), I say trying not to laugh because having a tech in a form and knowing how to use them against a grappler are not even in the same ball park.

So, having the tools and knowing how to use them, two elements that are BOTH required to understand groundfighting, are more often than not kept seperate in CMA schools. the latter actually often times being completely ignored....I agree with what you are saying . This ,as far as I am concerned, falls into the catagory of improper training.

[PangQuan]

No ,I would say that the vast majority of martial artist train their bodies improperly .

ill agree with this, to an extent.

I believe it depends on what your goals are. Modern day goals of course are going to be different, and it would seem silly to train without longevity as a major aspect in your studies.

In the past however, some people would be training (depending on the times of course war/peace) with the mindset they WILL NOT live to be old. they will die young, or middle aged in battle. At least that is a mindset that was very dominant in any war torn society.

with that mindset in place you have different options, you can go to polar extremes to reach goals that will be bad to your body in the long run, yet will give you extreme power in the present.

many forms of iron training are clear examples of this.

of course this is not even touching on the aspect of just plain training wrong. there are a right and a wrong way to do even things that harm your body.

but, in todays world, we dont have to think like that. we all plan to live as long as we can, so as MA'ists I agree that longevity should be a serious element to consider in your training.


Wally Jay?

[PangQuan]

I agree with what you are saying . This ,as far as I am concerned, falls into the catagory of improper training.

i agree with that for sure

[unkokusai]

if you think I was just supposed to stick my head up my @$$ .


Oh, you had that covered long before this thread began.

[PangQuan]

lil OT but:

I think this thread would actually be better placed in the regular kungfu section as its on CMA and groundfighting.

hopefully people from all CMA backgrounds would have some input here.


also, I dont see why we have to actually insult each other.

personally when i see people throwing out personal attacks on a forum, their posts carry much less weight....

[unkokusai]

like I said think what you want about me. .

Like I said, I think you are a LARPing loser.

[RonH]

It's not that we made it about mma, it's that you asked what people thought about cma ground fighting. We told you it was virtually non-existant, and the replies from you kept the thread going. LOL, this thread actually should have ended on the first page. Even mantis108, who If I am not mistaken was born, raised and trained in taiwan is pretty much agreeing with us and asked who you trained under (which I don't think you have answered yet.)

Your appeal to authority isn't helping matters.


this is something we should all know already...

beating around the bush and not addressing what i am talking about.

I have not been beating around the bush. I have fully answered your question repeatedly.


which is NOT the element of groundfighting being within the vast network of CMA knowledge, rather, the whole sale practice of this hidden, forbiden?? knowledge...

This is something I have address.


I am a CMA practitioner, I also feel there is a lot of work that translates to the ground, but at the same time, when you are on the ground certain elements need to change, as a very important element of the fight has actually changed, IE stand up to ground.

If an element of a stand up fight was changed, so that you had a much more limited range of movement, but you were still standing, does that mean that the tactics and principles of the style you use to fight with need to be abandond? Hardly. What you change is the application of those tactics and principles.


you talk about the road and path and time it takes to reach a point where one should be formless and able to adjust to any situation, because they have 'mastered' thier art.

To be honest, what is normally considered to be a 'master' level in taijiquan is something I find to be an abhorent and paltry excuse for the definition of the situation, but that's me because I have high standards.


show me the schools that have the instructors already at this level, that have developed a solid ground game, AND have a format in place to address the ground element.

That's a tall order, given how prevelent taijiquan schools are in all their variations (health and wellness, martial with internal work, martial without internal work) in the US alone. It gets worse when you include other countries and other forms of CMA, both internal and external. Also, I have previously said that with some practicioners, the requirement of such a 'solid ground game, AND have a format in place to address the ground element' is unnecessary when they already understand what has to be done in such a situation.


the THEORY that everything translates to the ground is all well and good, WHEN YOU PRACITCE THE THEORY REGULARLY, otherwise its simply words with no experience to back them. hence, no realy ground knowledge other than theorized translations from stand up to the mat.

My whole point with every opposing post and poster I have responded to about this has said that the application of principles and tactics are changed when you bring stand up learning down to the ground. And as I said on another page, I've tried before with grapplers/wrestlers and have used the same tactics and principles from stand up for when I'm on the ground. What I understood was that I needed to adapt the applications. How you adapt it is how your opponent attempts to pin you to the ground.


we all have heard a zillion times the post i am responding to in a zillion different words, and every time its just to ignore the real issue, feeding info to the thread that is common sense and basic, easily aquired information. just takes a few years to see what your talking about and understand the principles behind it.

The level of increasing detail I have been required to use is evidence of 'dumbing down' what I'm saying to make it easier to grasp by not only spoon feeding it to the reader, but forcing their mouths open with the jaws of life and dropping the information down their throats with a dump truck and a massive funnel.


I'm not trying to dispute the ability and information being available within the entire context of CMA, rather im disputing the fact that many CMA schools practice and work the ground element to the point of profeciency.

What I have also noticed is that I have yet to see you provide evidence to back up the assertion that these same schools don't. I see you showing no research into any kind of make shift surveys or anything like it. All this time, you keep insisting that I need to disprove what you're saying, but at the same time not holding yourself up to the standard of actually providing evidence that it is uncommon to have one to the point of proficiency. While I have said that not all do, I haven't taken the stance that most of them don't. I haven't taken a position on the percentage, but you have.


Profeciency on the ground being the ability to compete on a scale akin to the most popular formats that are heavy on ground fighting, in other words MMA. This includes External schools as well as Internal. you will find claims that "we have groundfighting in kungfu" more from external schools who are adament that their chin na is easily transfered to the ground, yet when you ask how often they focus on that aspect and actually take it to the ground....the room clears and you hear crickets.

And in this respect, I have not left the room, letting the sounds of crickets fill the space. I have given examples and spoke of the the underlying philosphies.

[SevenStar]

No ,I would say that the vast majority of martial artist train their bodies improperly ( none of my masters ever have )and why you do not see many people practicing in old age ,not because they choose not to because they have better things to do. Especially for a true CMA practitioner. For us it is a way of life not a hobby or sport..

And what I am saying is that you have no way to prove that. "You have an ego problem if you think I was just supposed to take a few peoples word about the subject , stick my head up my @$$, and forget what it is that I know to be contrary to what you have been saying..."

or can you prove that the majority of older MA that no longer train no longer do so due to injury? I am doubting that you can.

[PangQuan]

Your appeal to authority isn't helping matters.



I have not been beating around the bush. I have fully answered your question repeatedly.



This is something I have address.



If an element of a stand up fight was changed, so that you had a much more limited range of movement, but you were still standing, does that mean that the tactics and principles of the style you use to fight with need to be abandond? Hardly. What you change is the application of those tactics and principles.



To be honest, what is normally considered to be a 'master' level in taijiquan is something I find to be an abhorent and paltry excuse for the definition of the situation, but that's me because I have high standards.



That's a tall order, given how prevelent taijiquan schools are in all their variations (health and wellness, martial with internal work, martial without internal work) in the US alone. It gets worse when you include other countries and other forms of CMA, both internal and external. Also, I have previously said that with some practicioners, the requirement of such a 'solid ground game, AND have a format in place to address the ground element' is unnecessary when they already understand what has to be done in such a situation.



My whole point with every opposing post and poster I have responded to about this has said that the application of principles and tactics are changed when you bring stand up learning down to the ground. And as I said on another page, I've tried before with grapplers/wrestlers and have used the same tactics and principles from stand up for when I'm on the ground. What I understood was that I needed to adapt the applications. How you adapt it is how your opponent attempts to pin you to the ground.



The level of increasing detail I have been required to use is evidence of 'dumbing down' what I'm saying to make it easier to grasp by not only spoon feeding it to the reader, but forcing their mouths open with the jaws of life and dropping the information down their throats with a dump truck and a massive funnel.



What I have also noticed is that I have yet to see you provide evidence to back up the assertion that these same schools don't. I see you showing no research into any kind of make shift surveys or anything like it. All this time, you keep insisting that I need to disprove what you're saying, but at the same time not holding yourself up to the standard of actually providing evidence that it is uncommon to have one to the point of proficiency. While I have said that not all do, I haven't taken the stance that most of them don't. I haven't taken a position on the percentage, but you have.



And in this respect, I have not left the room, letting the sounds of crickets fill the space. I have given examples and spoke of the the underlying philosphies.

We seem to be half a page away from each other. I understand and agree primarily with everything your saying.

the only thing im trying to get at is, the majority of schools i have visited, first hand accounts of the majority of posters on this forum, all point to CMA schools having little to no strong ground foundation training in place.

strong ground foundation training in place.

this is the focus of all my posts, not whether CMA can or has groundfighting, but the whole sale practice. IMO Serious CMA schools, geared towards fighting and self defense should have a strong ground element to them as well as the stand up. Ive just noticed to often that, when visiting CMA schools, I am NOT seeing this in place.

"To be honest, what is normally considered to be a 'master' level in taijiquan is something I find to be an abhorent and paltry excuse for the definition of the situation, but that's me because I have high standards."

I understand what your saying here. The man I learned my Shaolin as well as my CMA foundation specializes in Taiji, namely Chen though he starts you with Yang. To date I still wont learn Taiji from anyone in my area but him. He still scares me. Just waiting till I feel its the right time for me to begin. (although i must admit, i should probably have started from the beginning. Yet Ive recently began wing chun training and dont have the time to fit in the Taiji.)

[tattooedmonk]

And what I am saying is that you have no way to prove that. "You have an ego problem if you think I was just supposed to take a few peoples word about the subject , stick my head up my @$$, and forget what it is that I know to be contrary to what you have been saying..."

or can you prove that the majority of older MA that no longer train no longer do so due to injury? I am doubting that you can.Yes , I can. You think because you and a bunch of other people( who mostly are not CMArtists) disagree with me and others here about whether CMA has groundfighting and have posted so, that it is a dead issue and the thread should have been over in the first page. THAT IS EGO !! It has been proven to me by the people I know and treat. You do the survey yourself and get back to me about your findings.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, you had that covered long before this thread began. LMAO !!!!!Whatever.

[unkokusai]

Yes , I can.
.................................................. .
B.S.

[PangQuan]

I know that i quit modern wushu because of injury and bodily harm, yet i believe i could continue to practice my shaolin till the day i die. I see elder monks doing this all the time on video...

over all i think that the reason people stop MA is for many different reasons, all included.

to me, i only quit wushu because it was not useful in a way that i wanted, it wasnt the injury alone, it was the fact i was recieving pain without a reward i though worthy of the pain.

we only live once, what is a little pain and injury if you love what you do.

i full well PLAN to be in pain when im old, i have injuries througout my life (not all from MA, most from just living) that will make sure i am in pain.

but the pain will NOT stop me from practicing my MA, you had better paralyze me or amputate my limbs, because pain and injury CANNOT stop me.

[tattooedmonk]

Your appeal to authority isn't helping matters.



I have not been beating around the bush. I have fully answered your question repeatedly.



This is something I have address.



If an element of a stand up fight was changed, so that you had a much more limited range of movement, but you were still standing, does that mean that the tactics and principles of the style you use to fight with need to be abandond? Hardly. What you change is the application of those tactics and principles.



To be honest, what is normally considered to be a 'master' level in taijiquan is something I find to be an abhorent and paltry excuse for the definition of the situation, but that's me because I have high standards.



That's a tall order, given how prevelent taijiquan schools are in all their variations (health and wellness, martial with internal work, martial without internal work) in the US alone. It gets worse when you include other countries and other forms of CMA, both internal and external. Also, I have previously said that with some practicioners, the requirement of such a 'solid ground game, AND have a format in place to address the ground element' is unnecessary when they already understand what has to be done in such a situation.



My whole point with every opposing post and poster I have responded to about this has said that the application of principles and tactics are changed when you bring stand up learning down to the ground. And as I said on another page, I've tried before with grapplers/wrestlers and have used the same tactics and principles from stand up for when I'm on the ground. What I understood was that I needed to adapt the applications. How you adapt it is how your opponent attempts to pin you to the ground.



The level of increasing detail I have been required to use is evidence of 'dumbing down' what I'm saying to make it easier to grasp by not only spoon feeding it to the reader, but forcing their mouths open with the jaws of life and dropping the information down their throats with a dump truck and a massive funnel.



What I have also noticed is that I have yet to see you provide evidence to back up the assertion that these same schools don't. I see you showing no research into any kind of make shift surveys or anything like it. All this time, you keep insisting that I need to disprove what you're saying, but at the same time not holding yourself up to the standard of actually providing evidence that it is uncommon to have one to the point of proficiency. While I have said that not all do, I haven't taken the stance that most of them don't. I haven't taken a position on the percentage, but you have.



And in this respect, I have not left the room, letting the sounds of crickets fill the space. I have given examples and spoke of the the underlying philosphies. Remember the guys that are disaggreeing with us , for the most part, are non CMArtist.

[PangQuan]

RonH

I also have to admit, to my discredit, I have not been to the majority of CMA schools. I make my statements based on the majority of schools i have been to.

That being said, I would be fairly certain in a blind statement saying there are schools out there that address the ground issue to a satisfactory, possibly wonderful degree.

However, in my experience I have not seen this. This could be totally due to my lack of travel...

:o

[PangQuan]

Remember the guys that are disaggreing with us , for the most part, are non CMArtist.

I am strictly CMA

though if you read all my posts you will see i agree CMA has groundfighting, its the development, upkeep, and training of groundfighting to the point of profeciency i dispute, based on the majority of schools i have seen, and the majority of CMAists i have talked to.

[tattooedmonk]

I am strictly CMA

though if you read all my posts you will see i agree CMA has groundfighting, its the development, upkeep, and training of groundfighting to the point of profeciency i dispute, based on the majority of schools i have seen, and the majority of CMAists i have talked to.I know. Thanks for your input !

[PangQuan]

I know. Thanks for your input !

:p

This is my ninja writing technique, dont tell anyone or your hair will catch on fire!

[MasterKiller]

No ,I would say that the vast majority of martial artist train their bodies improperly ( none of my masters ever have )

Yeah, the Soards are physical specimens...:rolleyes:

Which USSD school do you train at?

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, the Soards are physical specimens...:rolleyes:

Which USSD school do you train at?Ever crossed hands with one of them?? Bet they would work you over and eat your lunch. I may not agree with their business practices but I know that they are solid martial artist , although not many of their students are .:D USSD?? HAHAHAH NEVER
I have my own school now . I am not affiliated with anyone.

[boshea]

Where do you train Shaolin??

Are you addressing this question to me? I used to train Northern Shaolin at Wing Lam Kung Fu School in Sunnyvale, CA. I don't train Shaolin anymore (for the time being). I have been training Muay Thai for a little over a year now.

[SevenStar]

Remember the guys that are disaggreeing with us , for the most part, are non CMArtist.

Remember that the majority of them do have some experience training in cma, however.

[SevenStar]

Are you addressing this question to me? I used to train Northern Shaolin at Wing Lam Kung Fu School in Sunnyvale, CA. I don't train Shaolin anymore (for the time being). I have been training Muay Thai for a little over a year now.

see? add him to the list.

[PangQuan]

see? add him to the list.

lol, your just getting evil now :p

[boshea]

How many CMA schools train their students to deal with an experienced grappler with a solid guard? and how to pass that guard, dealing with the takedown, offense/defense, the mariad mount positions, the pro's and con's of each. etc...


Mine does.

tattooedmonk: What is the name of your school? Where is it located? Do you have a web site? Just curious, since you asked about my background (and I answered (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=772006#post772006)).

-b

[SevenStar]

..........

:p



;)

[SevenStar]

Yes , I can. You think because you and a bunch of other people( who mostly are not CMArtists) disagree with me and others here about whether CMA has groundfighting and have posted so, that it is a dead issue and the thread should have been over in the first page. THAT IS EGO !! It has been proven to me by the people I know and treat. You do the survey yourself and get back to me about your findings.

since you can prove it, where is your proof? As for the statement, it is not ego at all. you asked a question and pretty much everyone answered it the same on that page. since then it has all been this debate between the same people who responded on the first page. you haven't gotten any new insight from anyone about cma grappling. Consequently, your original discussion ended on the first page. The thread moved beyond the original scope.