GM William Cheung not doing Yip man lineage??

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I don't study Wing Chun..I want to add that first..so please don't accuse me of wanting to incite a war ok?

It has been my observation that WC tends to be more political than other styles. I'm not saying it is good or bad..it just is..

Anyways..

I was talking to a fellow about a year ago who teaches Wing Chun under Yip man/Yip Chun lineage..

I asked him about William Cheung and this fellow said that William Cheung isn't doing Yip Man's Wing Chun anymore ..but has instead trailed off to his own thing.

I'm confused..

Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Troll Thread.

[Knifefighter]

I
I asked him about William Cheung and this fellow said that William Cheung isn't doing Yip Man's Wing Chun anymore ..but has instead trailed off to his own thing.

I'm confused..

Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?

Most people who have significant experience (whatever the field of endeavor) usually develop their own ideas, philosophies and approaches.

[YungChun]

True Dale... But in this case William made a claim <after Ip's death> that he and "only he" was taught the "real" WCK system from Ip, that he was the true inheritor of the system...... :rolleyes:

This the reason he claims for being the only Ip student who has different forms and <name your patented system concept here>...

[anerlich]

I was talking to a fellow about a year ago who teaches Wing Chun under Yip man/Yip Chun lineage..


Who is this guy? And has he ever met William Cheung or any of his students? IOW, why is his opinion of any great value in this regard?


Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?

He does ...


I asked him about William Cheung and this fellow said that William Cheung isn't doing Yip Man's Wing Chun anymore ..but has instead trailed off to his own thing.

And if this guy's opinion has any value, and the statement is true (I do his lineage and AFAIK he has not), why does the second statement in someway contradict the first, or make him out to be an a-hole or something?


I'm confused..

And this would affect me or you how, since ..


I don't study Wing Chun..

and the matter therefore has zero concern for you?


Erasmus Mingatt

Is that your real name?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Victor Parlatti,

I am not. nor do I appreciate being referred to as a "troll". I am asking a question which I am entitled to do with the attempt at discerning knowledge. Nuff said. If you don't like my question..I invite you not to read it.

Onto other matters...:D

"Who is this guy? And has he ever met William Cheung or any of his students? "IOW, why is his opinion of any great value in this regard?"

Out of a courtesy..I prefer not to mention his name. He is a sifu certified under Sifu Michael Tse(who wrote a Wing Chun book with Yip Chun).It's fascinating how you insert your own insecutities and project them into my own statements. Did I ever "even once mention his opinion was "of any great value"? No. I merely asked the question out of curiosity. He is a sifu and I am not. I am merely trying to gain some feedback. Nothing wrong with that.


"And if this guy's opinion has any value, and the statement is true (I do his lineage and AFAIK he has not), why does the second statement in someway contradict the first, or make him out to be an a-hole or something"?


Once again. Did I ever state that anyone was a fake? It would be a good idea to discern my statement from that of this other person. Make who out to be an a-shole?


"And this would affect me or you how, since ..".. Affect neither of us. Your overt defensiveness speaks to me that you must have an issue or a problem with someone asking a question to substantiate a claim made by someone else..

"and the matter therefore has zero concern for you?"

According to whom? Is there some edict or law or doctrine which states that because I study "style of Kung Fu A" and you study "style of kung fu B"..that somehow I am prohibited from asking a question about another style? And if I decided to study Wing Chun instead of mantis..would it then be "ok"? And I might add..this is AMERICA my friend..I can study what I wish...


"Erasmus Mingatt
Is that your real name?"

Does it matter? Do you use your real name when posting? Speaking of something which is "of little concern"..AHEM!!

BTW---neither of you have answered the question..you have just resorted to ad homenim attacks..

[t_niehoff]

BTW---neither of you have answered the question..you have just resorted to ad homenim attacks..

SOP. ;)

Here's my take: Cheung learned WCK from Yip Man, and as far as we know and can independently verify, only Yip Man. After moving from Hong Kong, he apparently modified and re-tooled his WCK based on his understanding, but many of the "signature" drills and stylistic elements of Yip Man WCK remain. To market his approach, he made up a bunch of false claims, ranging from his being the best WCK fighter in the world to how he was Bruce Lee's instructor to how he, and only he, learned the "true, original" WCK from Yip in secret.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

t_niehoff,

What does "SOP" stand for?

Thanks for your reply. I can't comment. The people who side with GM Cheung will villify the gentleman who made the claim.


The people who are not in his camp will either confirm/deny or shrug their shoulders.

As for making claims and re-packaging,etc...

It certainly could not be any different than what I have **BEEN TOLD** about Leung Ting(and I bold face those words..to once again say that I am not necessarily saying that I BELIEVE what I read/hear most of the time--merely what others mention).

Perhaps I should re-phrase my question. Is there anyone in the world today who is teaching the ENTIRE AUTHENTIC YIP MAN lineage..but WITHOUT all the controversy?

[YungChun]

Is there anyone in the world today who is teaching the ENTIRE AUTHENTIC YIP MAN lineage..but WITHOUT all the controversy?
If "ENTIRE AUTHENTIC" means Ip's knowledge of the system at the time of his death then I think the answer would be "close" but no.

I'm not really sure that Ip learned the whole thing from his teacher(s) either... As more facts come to light about traditional martial arts it is clear that many a 'master' did not pass on all, most or even accurate information about the style in question.. This IMO is true for many a Chinese and Japanese style.. This may also begin to account for all the "Bullshido" that has been flung around in the last 60 years or so...

Ip Man did not name any inheritor of his lineage and I don’t think he taught the “entire intact system” to anyone based on what I know of the subject.

[AmanuJRY]

I don't study Wing Chun..I want to add that first..so please don't accuse me of wanting to incite a war ok?

It has been my observation that WC tends to be more political than other styles. I'm not saying it is good or bad..it just is..

Anyways..

I was talking to a fellow about a year ago who teaches Wing Chun under Yip man/Yip Chun lineage..

I asked him about William Cheung and this fellow said that William Cheung isn't doing Yip Man's Wing Chun anymore ..but has instead trailed off to his own thing.

I'm confused..

Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?

These kinds of statements are common in Yip Man WC circles. Once someone breaks from an organization (like the HKWCAA, in Cheung and Leung Ting's case), they usually garner criticizm from their former 'family' in the form of 'he doesn't do authentic WC...he modified it...etc.' Also, as a marketing tool Cheung, Ting, and others use the 'closed door student' and 'complete system' angles.

It's all BS. Hence, the reason you recieve 'troll' comments, etc. ;)

It sould take you no time at all to realize the irrelevance of such hype.

[A Soave]

I don't study Wing Chun..I want to add that first..so please don't accuse me of wanting to incite a war ok?YM?


Ok, I won't based on your responses here. However, I would not then, initiate a thread with the title: GM WC.........not doing YM lineage? if I were not interested in a flame job. Although you punctuate with question marks, the statement is declarative, agree?



It has been my observation that WC tends to be more political than other styles. I'm not saying it is good or bad..it just is..YM?

Perhaps. However, what on this earth is not political anymore?






I was talking to a fellow about a year ago who teaches Wing Chun under Yip man/Yip Chun lineage..

I asked him about William Cheung and this fellow said that William Cheung isn't doing Yip Man's Wing Chun anymore ..but has instead trailed off to his own thing.

I'm confused.. Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?


Yes he does. However, I suspect that all things evolve - whether for the good or for worse is a value judgment.


But a question if I may: You have talked to an instructor a year ago, who you asked about Wing Chun. Why did you ask him what you did, and why do you bring it up now?


A S

[Erasmus Mingatt]

A Soave,

My responses are below your quoted text:



"Ok, I won't based on your responses here. However, I would not then, initiate a thread with the title: GM WC.........not doing YM lineage? if I were not interested in a flame job."

I can't control peoples' impulses to respond/reply based on emotion rather than cognition. If people want to "flame" me rather than look at the substance of what I was saying..that is their business...




"Although you punctuate with question marks, the statement is declarative, agree?"

Disagree. That's precisely WHY it is in a format where I phrase it as a QUESTION. It would be declarative if I ended it with either a period or an exclamation point.


"Perhaps. However, what on this earth is not political anymore?"

I can think of quite a few things..but that's not the topic of this discussion...



"Yes he does. However, I suspect that all things evolve - whether for the good or for worse is a value judgment."

I'm not questioning the positives or negatives of something evolving.


"But a question if I may: You have talked to an instructor a year ago, who you asked about Wing Chun. Why did you ask him what you did,"


Why not? I enjoy learning about how styles evolve and formulate.

"and why do you bring it up now?"

Because at the time it was not a priority to post and I had buried the subject somewhere in my gray matter...and since I was paruzing thru the forum..I remembered the topic at hand.

It's more important to suspend judgement(I'm not directing this comment towards you per se..but universally) and not let questions/comments ignite preconcieved notions. It's more productive I find to engage in a conversation for its' own sake.

I can understand if I started a post entitled "GM William Cheung is a ------ and a ------ and has no basis for teaching kung fu"..or something similar..but I would never do such a thing...

Respectfully,
EM

[anerlich]

this is AMERICA my friend..I can study what I wish...

The internet is not America, fool. And we are not friends. Yeah, you can go ahead and waste your time however you wish.


Respectfully

Yeah, right. :p

You were looking to start an argument, you got one. Happy now?


The people who side with GM Cheung will villify the gentleman who made the claim.


I don't side with anybody, my academy departed from William Cheung's org some time ago with some acrimony ... but your statement above seems to indicate *you* are siding *against* Willam Cheung. Your statements aren't offensive on their own (rather, impolite and clueless). I just wonder why you bother posting unless you have some agenda.

Who vilified "the gentleman"? I didn't say he was a d1ck, I said he was just another guy with an opinion not based on any direct experience or first hand knowledge. Someone you probably shouldn't bother taking seriously on the particular subject. Though why on earth you bother so long after this alleged conversation other than to possibly stir up trouble escapes me. The guy can think what he likes and say what he likes. Opinion, not fact. If you take it without a whole shaker of salt you would be a fool.


I should re-phrase my question. Is there anyone in the world today who is teaching the ENTIRE AUTHENTIC YIP MAN lineage..but WITHOUT all the controversy?

Define "authentic". The answer is probably no, esp. if you want the controversy removed.


Does it matter? Do you use your real name when posting? Speaking of something which is "of little concern"..AHEM!!

If MY parents gave me that name, I'd probably be easily upset like you are :o.

There is a long history of trolls hiding behind screen names, which raises suspicion when a new poster starts an obviously controversial thread. Using your real name would give you more credibility (Andrew Nerlich is my real name, so yes, to your second question). I don't uinderstand what you are getting at with your third sentence, but that also applies to your motivation for starting the thread, so ...


BTW---neither of you have answered the question..you have just resorted to ad homenim attacks..

The only question you asked (other than the thread title, which is not a grammatically correct question) was this one ...


Doesn't William Cheung claim to have been taught the entire Wing Chun system by YM?

Which I in fact did answer,


He does ...

So bite me. I answered your rephrased question too.

The rest of my post was calling you out on your motivations. If that's ad hominem (it ain't, really, you can say I insulted you if you like but that ain't the same thing), than I guess I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life under that crushing burden of guilt (yawn).

My academy teaches William Cheung's and Yip Man's TWC to the best of my instructor's knowledge. We also teach Machado BJJ and MMA because you have to move with the changing world. As does William Cheung, the guy you spoke to, and everyone else.

Try not to let this controversy in a teacup keep you awake at night, OK?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I hope after the following thread that this can be ended...

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I'll try and rephrase this in a way that most laymen(even you) can understand.

When I said "This"(as in This is America)..I meant THE COUNTRY that I live in.


"Respectfully
Yeah, right."

At least I have the courtesy to state it. Which is alot more than you seemed to have learned. Isn't studying kung fu supposed to enhance a students "respect for others"? I guess you missed class that day.

"You were looking to start an argument, you got one. Happy now?"

I'm afraid it was YOU who started the argument. I was attacked verbally and I responded..just like anyone with any degree of self respect would have.


"I don't side with anybody, my academy departed from William Cheung's org some time ago with some acrimony"

Well Gimme a break matey!! You get your knickers in a knot giving people the impression that I somehow challenged your honor and the honor of William Cheung and then you do an about face and then say you aren't even affiliated with him anymore? Crikey!! I study 8 step mantis. That's like me defending GM Chan Pui (Wah Lum mantis) and then saying "Oh..I forgot to mention..8 step broke from his lineage 100 years ago".
I suggest you take a look at your OWN logic first.




... "but your statement above seems to indicate *you* are siding *against* Willam Cheung. Your statements aren't offensive on their own (rather, impolite and clueless)."

I personally challenge you to show me how my statements are impolite!! If you are down in Australia and talking with a fellow about a TV show and he makes a statement that you have never heard before..but you know of people who are long time viewers of the show and you say "Hey guys..a guy I was talking to yesterday said that ------ show isn't what it claims to be but something else"..you seem to be saying that there is something wrong with asking that question.



"I just wonder why you bother posting unless you have some agenda."


Oh you're getting P-A-R-A-N-O-I--D now? Ease up on the vegemite dude!!


"Who vilified "the gentleman"? I didn't say he was a d1ck,"

No you just called him an a--hole. Or was that me? I suppose in Australia if someone voice a difference of opinion or queries about a disparity of an opinion that this is somehow illegal? Fascinating!


"I said he was just another guy with an opinion not based on any direct experience or first hand knowledge."

It's funny..but you're quite the hypocrite. First..you attack me saying it's "none of my concern" because I am not affiliated with either GM Cheung, and yet a few posts down the road you turn around and tell me that even YOU are not affilated anymore with him. For a guy who ostensibly has no more ties to him..you sure are getting bent out of shape over a little comment/question I made. But I guess an empty gun makes the loudest noise eh? As for direct experience..he's a sifu and I venture to guess..you are not. Seems pretty first hand to me.




"Someone you probably shouldn't bother taking seriously on the particular subject."

There you go putting words in my mouth again!! I never said I "took him seriously"..I merely said I was speaking to this sifu and this is what he said. Besides..if I took him so "seriously"(your words)..then I surely wouldn't be asking others on this webpage whether the instructors claim had merit now would I? Let me guess..I should take YOU seriously..but not him. I can ask whomever I like ..sorry if you can't handle it.


"Though why on earth you bother so long after this alleged conversation other than to possibly stir up trouble escapes me."


Like the band "The Kinks" sung: "Paranoia..age destroyer...Paranoia..age destroyer"..Lets take a look at who is "stirring up trouble". You've called people "a--hole" "clueless" and who knows what else. And you accuse ME of starting a fight? Look in the mirror...





"The guy can think what he likes and say what he likes. Opinion, not fact. If you take it without a whole shaker of salt you would be a fool."

Alas..we can ALL think and say what we like..even me! :p . As for taking it with a "shaker of salt"..I suggest you take the comment of that sifu I spoke with in the same manner..but it seems based on your excitable nature..that you cannot do this...


"If MY parents gave me that name, I'd probably be easily upset like you are "

And if I lived in a country whose history was based on it's founders being descended from hoodlums, criminals and social outcasts who were put on a ship and set to sea from England..I'd probably be as obnoxious as you! ;).

" but that also applies to your motivation for starting the thread, so"

And I am still wondering why you took my innocent query as a personal attack against you or the system of Wing Chun you study. For my thread to be "insulting"..I would not phrase the words as a QUESTION..but as a statement..usually with an exclamation point. Go back and re-read the post..it was a Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N. Maybe you've heard of them?

.
"The only question you asked (other than the thread title, which is not a grammatically correct question) was this one "...

You used the word "AFAIK" in your first reply Andrew. After reading it a few times..I've concluded that you were trying to spell the words "a fake"..as in someone who is not legitimate. And you tell me I am grammatically challenged? LOL!!


"So bite me. I answered your rephrased question too."

And I'm the troll eh? Dude..please go back and train.

"The rest of my post was calling you out on your motivations."

I'm afraid that only I am aware of my motivations. How narcissistic of you to assume you can get inside my head and tell me why I started the thread!!


" than I guess I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life under that crushing burden of guilt (yawn)."

Oh the sheer terror of the "crushing burden of guilt"..are you sure you are not a fiction writer? Or is it a drama queen?

"My academy teaches William Cheung's and Yip Man's TWC to the best of my instructor's knowledge."

YOUR instructor? You mean you do all this fist pounding and bellyaching and self-aggrandizing talk and you are not even a sifu yourself? Please go away! Shouldn't your instructor be answering my question? I would hope he would at least not see into everything in such an abberant way as you do.



"Try not to let this controversy in a teacup keep you awake at night, OK?"

Look Andrew..it's been real ok? Try not to let your paranoia convince you that Martians from outerspace are sending lesbian-transsexual bulemic communist messages thru the arms of your wooden dummy during training.

[Mr Punch]

LOL at all of this.

LOL at Andrew's last post - funny.

LOL at Mr E. Mingatt (that can't be a real name, but 10 points for inventiveness if it's your creation).

LOL at the blatant troll thread.

LOL at william Cheung (just to be liberal with my LOLling.

And LOL at this hackneyed rudeness...
And if I lived in a country whose history was based on it's founders being descended from hoodlums, criminals and social outcasts who were put on a ship and set to sea from England..I'd probably be as obnoxious as you! ;).From a man who comes from a country whose history was based on its founders being descended (er... didn't you mean 'whose founders' btw?) turncoats, tax-dodgers, sociopaths, religious maniacs, genocidal rednecks, chicken****s who were to afraid to fight for their own countries, oh, and hopelessly unrealistic idealists...

Just for sh!ts n giggles! :D

[punchdrunk]

i'll try to keep this polite and unpolitical, i think your question was honest. cheungs wing chun forms, drills, and theories are different from most yipman wing chun. he says he was privately taught the real wing chun by yipman and sworn not to reveal it while he was still alive. no one here can claim to know the truth, but his methods are different from yip chun, yip ching, wong sheun leung, moy yat, leung ting, etc who all have very similar forms and exercises. i do not mean this as a judgement of his skill, just that his system is different.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I swear..if you could have seen my reaction. I'm typing at a Starbucks right now and I laughed so hard..I almost shot coffee out my nose!! :eek:

Mr. Punch..as the French say "Touche"!! I never said that the people who founded America were angels did I ? :rolleyes:

But in the immortal words of John Rambo "He Drew first blood"...Yooooo aaaiiddrriiiaaaannnn!!(oops..wrong movie).

The comment on the bottom of your post had me laughing too..the one about Jesus give Santa a shot of bourbon followed by a full body wax..causing The easter Bunny to fantasize about Andrews mom..or whatever it is..man that's just too much!!:D

You are correct sir..Erasmus Mingatt is NOT my real name..;)

My real name is: Transgalacticlunaticaschmuckatelli-#468-B!!

Punchdrunk,

Be carefull....or anallick(aka. ..Andrew) will accuse you of collaborating with the guys in the Red Boat Wing Chun/Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and yes..even the guys at "Temple Kung Fu"(arguably the front for the whole operation) to stage a demonstration which conclusively PROVES that Andrew is really a spy for the legendary Bak Mei. None of it has anything to do with GM William Cheung..but I had to fill the page up with something right?

[Liddel]

Does Lineage not infer or relate to the source of something ?

So regardless of a style being the same or not, in look, in feel or whatever, in this case, it is the same lineage.

Cheung learnt from one of GM Ip's students and perportedly directly from him thereafter.
You can argue the value or even the name of what he has. But the source is the same therefore the lineage.......

END OF STORY.

P.S nice troll job Starbucks boy. and i do mean BOY.

DREW - Lok Yiu Lineage.
:cool:

[anerlich]

And if I lived in a country whose history was based on it's founders being descended from hoodlums, criminals and social outcasts who were put on a ship and set to sea from England..I'd probably be as obnoxious as you!

Stop selling yourself short. You are at LEAST as obnoxious and paranoid as me.

FWIW, my ancestors arrived in Australia from Germany as free settlers in 1845.


You mean you do all this fist pounding and bellyaching and self-aggrandizing talk and you are not even a sifu yourself?

Actually I was graded as an instructor in 1995 and have been promoted further several times since. I remain, however a student of my instructor, who is the head of the org I belong to. Hopefully that clarifies matters for you.

As for fist pounding and bellyaching, have a look at your own performance above and cry me a river.

It's like if I goaded you, I was expecting to let off a tom thumb and instead it turned out to be a tactical nuke.

Two words - ANGER MANAGEMENT. :p:p:p


Be carefull....or anallick(aka. ..Andrew) will accuse you of collaborating with the guys in the Red Boat Wing Chun/Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and yes..even the guys at "Temple Kung Fu"(arguably the front for the whole operation) to stage a demonstration which conclusively PROVES that Andrew is really a spy for the legendary Bak Mei. None of it has anything to do with GM William Cheung..but I had to fill the page up with something right?


How old are you? Nine?

Are you from Detroit by any chance?

[Ultimatewingchun]

TROLL THREAD. :eek:


Oh, wait...I said that already. :rolleyes:

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Stop selling yourself short. You are at LEAST as obnoxious and paranoid as me."

I can give as good as I get buddy!!

"FWIW, my ancestors arrived in Australia from Germany as free settlers in 1845."

OK so the precursors to Fascists and THEN hoodlums/derelicts..is that better? :rolleyes:



"Actually I was graded as an instructor in 1995 and have been promoted further ""several times since. I remain, however a student of my instructor, who is the "head of the org I belong to. Hopefully that clarifies matters for you."

YIPEE!!!! May the ghost of Yip man sing "for he's a jolly good ausie".

"As for fist pounding and bellyaching, have a look at your own performance above and cry me a river."

See reply from your first quote on this thread.

"It's like if I goaded you, I was expecting to let off a tom thumb and instead it turned out to be a tactical nuke."

Well..as Andrew Dice Clay says: "You got the bonus program". If ya can't take it(which is obvious)_..don't dish it out!! Why'd ya goad me in the first place? I was asking a simple question regarding lineage/ aspects of how GM William Cheung COULD POSSIBLY differ from that of Yip Man and you took it as if I stole your woman, cursed your family name, set fire to your wooden dummy, and took a sh-t on the hood of your car! What's even more hysterical is that you admitted that your instructor/school is NO LONGER WITH GM William Cheung! I've seen some schizophrenic thinkers before..but you are something else. I never once bad mouthed GM Cheung OR Yip man.(and why would I? I've heard nothing but honorable things about both men). Bruce Lee modified WC and added some aspects of fencing and western boxing. So according to your kindergarten level logic if lets say..I had never heard that before and started a post entitled "Bruce Lee not doing classic Yip man kung fu?"(or something similar)..I must be defaming him.or somehow implying that he's a sub par MA. You claim to be so tough(sifu level..promoted more than once,etc.) but your ego is so uber-wimpy that you run away like a scared little girl at the paranoid delusion that I'm somehow badmouthing either master!

"Two words - ANGER MANAGEMENT."

Get a load o' this guy folks..I ask a simple question..and in one of his first replies to me in the threads above is "You wanted a fight..now you got one".
Ever hear of just having a discussion? And I'm the angry one?

"How old are you..nine?"

37


"Are you from Detroit by any chance?"

Brooklyn, New York. You can sit behind your computer and be a computer tough guy as much as you want..in the end..anyone can brag. Hopefully one day you'll try and do a pak sao and someone of superior skill will shatter your arm to dust. Maybe that will convince you to avoid stirring the pot yourself.


Before I close..I'd like to sincerely thank the normal people(read: NOT ADAM) for their candor and understanding where I am coming from. I also might add(laddie there down under) that if you had half of anything up in that cranium it might have occured to you that I asked the question because I'd like to STUDY some Wing Chun and just want to find out what's what. If you were that confident as a sifu..there would be no need to respond the way you did to my initial post.

Lastly..I'd like to please ask the moderators to lock this thread. Thanks.

EM

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Forgot to mention..

While we are talking names.. Mr. Punch..your "homicidal puppet" moniker is great!:cool:

[anerlich]

I can give as good as I get buddy!!

Not judging from your responses above.

You're all tip and no iceberg.


Brooklyn, New York.

UltimateWingChun/Victor teaches WC in Brooklyn. If you want to learn WC, go see him after you've finished in Starbucks.

I'm sure he'll be thrilled to answer your questions about his instructor, William Cheung, for you. As you suggest below, get out from behind the computer, man up and talk to someone face to face.


You can sit behind your computer and be a computer tough guy as much as you want..in the end..anyone can brag. Hopefully one day you'll try and do a pak sao and someone of superior skill will shatter your arm to dust. Maybe that will convince you to avoid stirring the pot yourself.


Hopefully one day you'll reach some level of maturity.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Whatever..

Lets just shake hands(figuratively) and call a truce..

I've got better things to do..:)

[namron]

Ok - I can handle controversy about ones lineage, & slander directed at ones heritage, but please please please dont dis the holy icon of aussie breky, which IMO ****es all over the peanut butter and Jelly trans pacific equiv. :D

Other than that KF's brief post should address the original questions in your post.

Back to our regular viewing, revisionist history in MA. ;)

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Namron..it's all in jest right?

At the end of the day..we all go home and do our thing. I study mantis..he studies WC..whatever...

I don't hate the guy..but I sure don't mean any disrespect to either GM Cheung or GGM Yip Man...in spite of what he may think.

In looking back I regret for going on and on for so long..

In the future I'll just say "you're entitled to your opinion" and leave it at that..

Right? Right!

[Toby]

FWIW, my ancestors arrived in Australia from Germany as free settlers in 1845.Wow, that must've been unusual in that day and age.

[t_niehoff]

Does Lineage not infer or relate to the source of something ?

So regardless of a style being the same or not, in look, in feel or whatever, in this case, it is the same lineage.

Cheung learnt from one of GM Ip's students and perportedly directly from him thereafter.
You can argue the value or even the name of what he has. But the source is the same therefore the lineage.......

END OF STORY.

P.S nice troll job Starbucks boy. and i do mean BOY.

DREW - Lok Yiu Lineage.
:cool:

Good post (except for the personal stuff at the end).

In my view, lineage is BS, and it certainly has absolutely nothing to do with a person's skill/ability or how well they teach WCK or anything substantive. Lineage is one of those traditional aspects that only holds people back.

Lineage is literally a "line of persons" -- your "relatives", decendents, etc. in WCK. So someone not "related" to you, cannot be part of your lineage. Cheung clearly fits within the Yip Man lineage under this scheme: Yip was his sifu.

The lineage relationship is maintained, however, not through blood but through similarity in curriculum, the forms, drills, theory, etc. Yip Man had a certain curriculum, one that he apparently continued to change throughout his teaching career and one that permits a certain amount of flexibility. But, as I said earlier, his forms, drills, theory, etc. have certain key, recognizable "signature" elements (form choreography, drills, etc.). The question here is how much can you alter, change, modify a certain curriculum before it stops being that curriculum (a certain way of teaching) and takes on a different essence? How different does it need to be?

I don't think this can be defined with any hard and fast rules.

[A Soave]

This is directed to both anerlich and Victor,

You, my friend, are a hoot!!!!!





"but your statement above seems to indicate *you* are siding *against* Willam Cheung. Your statements aren't offensive on their own (rather, impolite and clueless). I just wonder why you bother posting unless you have some agenda.

And:


Who vilified "the gentleman"? I didn't say he was a d1ck, I said he was just another guy with an opinion not based on any direct experience or first hand knowledge. Someone you probably shouldn't bother taking seriously on the particular subject. Though why on earth you bother so long after this alleged conversation other than to possibly stir up trouble escapes me. "

If MY parents gave me that name, I'd probably be easily upset like you are :o.

There is a long history of trolls hiding behind screen names, which raises suspicion when a new poster starts an obviously controversial thread. Using your real name would give you more credibility (Andrew Nerlich is my real name, so yes, to your second question). I don't uinderstand what you are getting at with your third sentence, but that also applies to your motivation for starting the thread, so ...

So bite me. I answered your rephrased question too.

Try not to let this controversy in a teacup keep you awake at night, OK?



I enjoy reading this thread, not so much to refute trolls (there everywhere; there everywhere!), rather to read your humorous responses to them. It makes for good comic relief.


Hope all is well,

A. S.

[AmanuJRY]

Mr. Erasmus (my GF's cat's name, by the way), for the simple fact that you are talking out your proverbial heinie about a person I respect,and the BS questions you are asking indicates to me you know diddly squat about WC or the people in this internet WC community and you post very inFLAME-atory posts.:rolleyes:


You sir, are most definately a TROLL.:mad:

[t_niehoff]

Funny, this guy posts a question --nothing imflamatory about it on its face -- on a WCK forum about WCK, and the two immediate responses, as he himself correctly noted, were personal attacks (what I called the standard operating procedure, SOP, in the "WC comunity"). He responds in kind to those posters, and who can blame him since he is unfamliar with "the WC community" and its SOP in dealing with issues/questions that someone personally doesn't like? (I noticed he didn't respond to the people making substantive replies this way.) Yet some suggest that he was at fault! And rally to the side of the attackers. Amazing.

[AmanuJRY]

Funny, this guy posts a question --nothing imflamatory about it on its face -- on a WCK forum about WCK, and the two immediate responses, as he himself correctly noted, were personal attacks (what I called the standard operating procedure, SOP, in the "WC comunity"). He responds in kind to those posters, and who can blame him since he is unfamliar with "the WC community" and its SOP in dealing with issues/questions that someone personally doesn't like? (I noticed he didn't respond to the people making substantive replies this way.) Yet some suggest that he was at fault! And rally to the side of the attackers. Amazing.

Bull 5hit, Terrance!

A. His post is most definately inflammitory (the title alone is inflammitory), even if he is not aware of this.

B. Only one reply was a personal attack, Victor calling him a Troll, until I joined in calling him a troll.

C. Andrew's posts were not personal attacks, just criticizm that the individual feeding EM this info doesn't know what he is talking about....which is obvious. EM then took personal offence to this and elevated it to name calling and insult. So, yes, in my eyes he is at 'fault'.

D. I'm rallying to the side of common sense and fair play.

My questions for EM;

If you don't study WC why is this important?

Even if you studied WC, if you don't study TWC, what would it mean to you?

How does what William Cheung does affect how you train?

Will you win a bet?

Are you trying to find the 'real' Wing Chun?

Basically, WTF does it mean to you?

[t_niehoff]

Bull 5hit, Terrance!

A. His post is most definately inflammitory (the title alone is inflammitory), even if he is not aware of this.


Why would whether Cheung is "doing" YM lineage be imfalmmatory -- regardless of the asnwer? I could make a case for both yes and no, and either way you look at it isn't imflammatory.



B. Only one reply was a personal attack, Victor calling him a Troll, until I joined in calling him a troll.


I think taking the tone (the attitude) of who-the-hell-are-you-to-ask-such-a-question (and the related why-does-it-matter-to-you) are personal attacks. They certainly don't pertain to the question.



C. Andrew's posts were not personal attacks, just criticizm that the individual feeding EM this info doesn't know what he is talking about....which is obvious. EM then took personal offence to this and elevated it to name calling and insult. So, yes, in my eyes he is at 'fault'.


Of course he doesn't know what he is talking about -- he said so in his question! That's why he is asking on a WCK forum. What does he get for asking a question? Called a troll and asked who-the-hell-are-you-to-ask-such-a-question combined with you-don-t-know-what-you-are-talking-about? Based on that, you're surprised he took the bait?



D. I'm rallying to the side of common sense and fair play.


If so, then hold everyone to that standard. Perhaps giving this guy the benefit of the doubt would be common sense and fair play.



My questions for EM;

If you don't study WC why is this important?

Even if you studied WC, if you don't study TWC, what would it mean to you?

How does what William Cheung does affect how you train?

Will you win a bet?

Are you trying to find the 'real' Wing Chun?

Basically, WTF does it mean to you?

And WTF does it matter what his reasons are for wanting information? EM's right about the level of paranoia.

[anerlich]

Lets just shake hands(figuratively) and call a truce..

Yawn...


I've got better things to do..

What? Sit in Starbucks and snort your latte all over your keyboard? Make sure you tip the poor server who has to wipe up after you.

LOL at being counselled on appropriate forum behaviour by Terence, of all people :p:p:p

[AmanuJRY]

Why would whether Cheung is "doing" YM lineage be imfalmmatory -- regardless of the asnwer? I could make a case for both yes and no, and either way you look at it isn't imflammatory.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who is not offended by the comment, but if I try thinking like a TWC'er I would probably take offence to it as it is implying that Cheung isn't teaching what he claims to teach....which is Ip Man Wing Chun.

Not inflammitory, my a55!




I think taking the tone (the attitude) of who-the-hell-are-you-to-ask-such-a-question (and the related why-does-it-matter-to-you) are personal attacks. They certainly don't pertain to the question.

It's not 'who-the-hell-are-you-to-ask-such-a-question' situation, more of a 'no, your friend is full of 5hit' situation.;)



Of course he doesn't know what he is talking about -- he said so in his question! That's why he is asking on a WCK forum. What does he get for asking a question? Called a troll and asked who-the-hell-are-you-to-ask-such-a-question combined with you-don-t-know-what-you-are-talking-about? Based on that, you're surprised he took the bait?

It's not that he doesn't know what he's talking about...it's that his sifu friend doesn't know what he's talking about. He's been called a troll because he is the one with the hook in the water, why would he take his own bait?:confused:



If so, then hold everyone to that standard. Perhaps giving this guy the benefit of the doubt would be common sense and fair play.

How have I not held everyone to that standard? And, I have given this guy the benefit of the doubt, because he claimed to be in the dark about it all, otherwise I would have just called him a troll in the first place. ;)



And WTF does it matter what his reasons are for wanting information? EM's right about the level of paranoia.

We've provided the information - that the comments his buddy made are BS - why can't he provide a reason for asking.:eek:

If anything he's paranoid for keeping his reasons secret.

Besides, real paranoia comes from fear and I (and I imagine Anerlich and Vic) have nothing to fear from these statements, so what's causing the paranoia?:confused:

[Liddel]

Im just waiting for the " My dad could kick your dads ass..." posts.

LOL :cool:

[Erasmus Mingatt]

OK Fellas look..

If you want to misconstrue my question as a STATEMENT(trust me..they are different..ask any English professor)..that is your prerogative.

t_niehoff..thanks for "sticking up" for me and being rational.

As for my question being a troll like response it reminds me of the stand up comedy routine years ago when Eddie Murphy pretends to be a white guy and he asks a black guy(I think it was supposed to take place in an airport) "Sir is this your bag?" and the black guy gets up in the white guys face and screams "YEAH IT'S MY F-CKIN BAG" and the white guy walks away confused and goes "Gee..what ""the f-ck is wrong with this guy?"..that's basically the dynamic here.
"
"ALL COMMUNICATION is based on CONTEXT. I never said "Hey..I heard that GM "---- is not doing ------- lineage of ----- style"..nor did I say I BELIEVE what this person is saying ok? Not once!!! I said "Can anyone tell me if this is true"

Onto the specific questions that I was asked..I'll respond in under the quoted text.

"A. His post is most definately inflammitory (the title alone is inflammitory), even if he is not aware of this."

Is there a crime with not being aware of something? Trust me..if I could go back and re-think whether or not my post was liable to inflame people I would have. All I can do is confide that it was not my intent. Sorry if you fellas took it so personal.

"B. Only one reply was a personal attack, Victor calling him a Troll, until I joined in calling him a troll."

Only one? Ok. Great logic here. Like saying "only one person was beating up the stranger coming off the bus..until I joined in..aint I cool? Look at how cool I am taking part in attacking someone innocent". When you state "until I joined in".. wouldn't the mature thing to do instead be to say "Hey..are you stating that you are saying that GM ----- is a fraud or somehow is not doing WC" and instead find out what I am asking? Yep.

"C. Andrew's posts were not personal attacks, just criticizm that the individual feeding EM this info doesn't know what he is talking about....which is obvious."

Then criticize the INDIVIDIUAL buddy...Not me. If the weatherman says "It should be bright and sunny today and it rains" and a half hour later..someone asks me "Do you know what the weather forecast is supposed to be today" and I say "I heard it was going to be sunny" and just then it starts to get overcast..is it fair for the person to level me with all sorts of perjoratives? No.


"then took personal offence to this and elevated it to name calling and insult. So, yes, in my eyes he is at 'fault'."

Oh? Go back and read ALL the posts..not just the ones you like. When Andrew stated "You wanted to start an argument? You got one"..who is elevating it?


My questions for EM;

"If you don't study WC why is this important? "

1.I studied WC for approx a month..I sure would not claim that I am a long time student.

2. I've been thinking lately of studying it AGAIN. Since I am someone who likes to hear about how different styles evolve and develop it's interesting to hear about how styles adapt and change or continue a certain lineage,etc. Funny..other people go way beyond asking questions about this type of thing on forums for other styles..in the form of CONSTRUCTIVE debate..and I don't notice people getting all worked up?

3. "Even if you studied WC, if you don't study TWC, what would it mean to you?"

I'll turn the question BACK at you sir. Why is it so important to you that I ask a question? Why the need to retrofit my intentions to something that they werent?
As for what it MEANS to me? A curiosity. Kinda like if a student asks (what year did the Shaolin temple burn). What's it to ya if I ask? I'm sure that GM Cheung would not kick me out of his school if I asked the question. He'd probably be the consummate professional and answer in a very calm manner.


How does what William Cheung does affect how you train?"

It doesn't. There you go again with inserting all of these assumptions about my question. 99&#37; of what you assume about my motive has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my question. Your loss if you don't wanna believe me.

"Will you win a bet?"

About what? Did I ever say I wanted to take place in one? LOL

"Are you trying to find the 'real' Wing Chun?"

Once again..did I ever state this? "I mentioned about is there anyone in the kf community who is teaching GGM Yips art in it's most original form." But so what?

Read the book "Complete Wing Chun"..it must have at least a dozen Wing Chun lineages. Some very interesting ones too. Pan Nam, Side Body, Red Boat, and some I haven until recently never heard of..such as a lineage from Vietnam and some other which escape me. According to your logic..the author of the text should be burned at the stake because he DARES mention anything but Yip Mans lineage.

"Basically, WTF does it mean to you?"

And what does it mean to you if I ask?


I'm not going to post in this section anymore.It's just not worth it. Seems the HG.CLF,PM and other guys have alot more maturity to them. Shame

[Erasmus Mingatt]

amenuJRY,

Now I have absolutely NO doubt that you and almost everyone else is inserting things into my question that were not what I said:

"We've provided the information - that the comments his buddy made are BS"

He's not my friend, buddy, nemesis, rival kung fu instructor or anything else. You manipulate the original question to suite your own personal bias. I merely said he was a man I was talking to once. Nothing more!


- "why can't he provide a reason for asking."

I have..read my posts.

"If anything he's paranoid for keeping his reasons secret."

Even if my reasons were different from what I had stated..does everything have to have a reason?

If you want to show disrespect towards a person..you don't phrase it as a question. If I wanted to call a guy who cut me off in traffic an a-shole..I don't say "Excuse me..are you and a-shole"???(note the question marks. When it is in question marks it implies LACK OF CERTAINTY).

No..I'd say "You're an a-hole"!!(now THAT is a declarative statement).

But I am sure English 101 courses are forming at your local community college. If you hurry..I'm sure you, andy,victor and everyone else can get the last few seats..

Whatever desire I had to study wing chun again has all but completely evaporated. If the student body found in most schools is as conspiratorial, paranoid and hypersensitive as you all have been..I'll stick with mantis.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

AmanJRY,

Do you think that saying that my screename is the same as your girlfriends' cat is going to offend me? LOL. :p

In light of 2 of your questions..I have two for you.(underneath your quoted text)

"Even if you studied WC, if you don't study TWC, what would it mean to you?"

Are you saying that Yip Man's WC is the only valid "traditional" one? Because it would seem some of the others(Red Boat, Pao Fa Lein,Hung Fa Yi,etc.) might have an issue with it.



"How does what William Cheung does affect how you train?"

How does me asking my original question affect how YOU train?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

All,

It does not speak well of your level of professionalism to act in such an elitist way. Does this mean that a newcomer to WC is presented with a list on day one class with a set of topics/questions that are prohibited from being asked?

Goodness..what if someone from another lineage of WC started a thread about their own style. Can they expect that they will be attacked also?(ie: "What's your REAL motive for starting this thread Red Boat boy")?

[AmanuJRY]

AmanJRY,

Do you think that saying that my screename is the same as your girlfriends' cat is going to offend me? LOL. :p

Not at all, it's just an observation. Funny how you interpet it as an attempted insult.:rolleyes:


Are you saying that Yip Man's WC is the only valid "traditional" one? Because it would seem some of the others(Red Boat, Pao Fa Lein,Hung Fa Yi,etc.) might have an issue with it.[QUOTE]

Absolutly not. I have never studied TWC, if I felt that way I most definatly would have by now.;)

[QUOTE]How does me asking my original question affect how YOU train?

Touche! It doesn't and never will.:D


A few other notes;

Yes, only one personal attack, the others were as you might say 'not a declaritve statement' (as they were bound by 'if's').

You are as guilty of personal attacks in this thread as well, so get off your high horse.


Whatever desire I had to study wing chun again has all but completely evaporated. If the student body found in most schools is as conspiratorial, paranoid and hypersensitive as you all have been..I'll stick with mantis.

It has been my experience that most WC schools are conspiratorial, paranoid and hypersensitive, because of contraversy such as this. It's all BS, go train Mantis.;)

[Mr Punch]

Don't go Mr Mingatt! You have such wonderful taste in screen names, signatures and monikers!

Ah, but you posted a thread on the wing chun forum without realizing that chunners are renowned for being the biggest bunch of paranoid whining b!tches in any MA community... the punishment for which is... ostracization! :p

To be fair though, a hell of a lot of people come on here and post on exactly the same kind of subject to troll us poor simple vertical punchers... but you weren't to know that... were you???

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Mr. Punch,

Thanks for the compliment..but I'm afraid I must defer to you. Anyone who calls himself a "homicidal puppet" is a true visionary! What is that a picture of btw? Is that a kitty kat? A puppet? what? When you state:


"If santa shoots the easter bunny jesus will write him off and this will start a celestial war the likes of which we've never seen.
the skies will cry with the blood of the fallen. - GDA"

That's some funny sh-t dude!! Is that a quote from a movie? If so..what?

It even surpasses Ghostbusters when Bill Murray goes "prime wrath of God stuff here. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!"

It's like saying "If Andrew leaped out of the closet(like we didn't know eh?) and challenged Pee-Wee Herman and Steve Ercle(yes--the whiny black kid on TV with the glasses) to a kung fu match to the death and both Pee Wee and Steve won(the likely conclusion)..this will start a chain reaction in which Rosie O' Donnell will eat 1000 white caste hamburgers and drink a bottle of sake..which will set off a 100 mega-ton f-rt(rhymes with Bart) which will end all life on earth"..

Just brilliant mate!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

POST TROLL TREAD. :D


...Life begins at 45.

[AmanuJRY]

"If santa shoots the easter bunny jesus will write him off and this will start a celestial war the likes of which we've never seen.
the skies will cry with the blood of the fallen. - GDA"


That's a quote from Gunned Down Atrocity, another poster and Satan's master...last I heard.:D:cool:

[anerlich]

I'm sure that GM Cheung would not kick me out of his school if I asked the question. He'd probably be the consummate professional and answer in a very calm manner.

Maybe he's mellowed with age. If you tried it on a decade or two ago, let's just say he's never been feted for his diplomatic responses to such questions.


Goodness..what if someone from another lineage of WC started a thread about their own style. Can they expect that they will be attacked also?

That pretty much happens all the time. You learn to roll with it.


It does not speak well of your level of professionalism to act in such an elitist way.

LOL, this is an internet forum. Nobody other than Gene Ching and maybe a couple of others post here professionally. No one's elitist, everyone gets insulted pretty much equally. Despite your own apparent opinions, you are not special in the least in any way.


Whatever desire I had to study wing chun again has all but completely evaporated.

Maybe that's a plus for Wing Chun? Like we don't already have enough adolescents in love with what they mistakenly believe is a talent for repartee and humour, posting here at excessive length.


Do you think that saying that my screename is the same as your girlfriends' cat is going to offend me? LOL.

I thought you must have borrowed it from some gay pr0n star. Hopefully that won't offend you either.

Didn't you say you had better things to do? Starbucks is calling.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Actually..

It's pretty d-mn funny when some of WCs own say things like "Chunners are known to be among the most paranoid, whiniest *****es in the MA community"..

I'd be lying if I said I didn't laugh(no starbucks this time)

I grow tired of this thread so I'll ask a ? unrelated to this specific topic..

Did Emin Bozetepe really beat GM Cheung in a fight somewhere in Germany or was it a sucker punch followed by some sort of ambush..

I've heard alot of stories validating the later of the two...

If the former is true..Shame on Emin Bozetepe. My own sifu tells me that EB was supposedly disowned/kicked out of Leung Tings group..

Guess some people just can't get along with anyone...:(

[anerlich]

I grow tired of this thread so I'll ask a ? unrelated to this specific topic..

LOL, you mean "I didn't get no satisfaction out of that troll attempt so I'll try again by flogging another dead horse."


My own sifu tells me that EB was supposedly disowned/kicked out of Leung Tings group..

You keep getting your advice from people who have no direct knowledge of the subject they are discussing and don't know what they are talking about. No wonder you keep finding your foot in your mouth up to the knee.

Emin was the golden boy of WT for over a decade after the incident. After they parted company (which many think was his idea, not theirs), Emin was quoted in a magazine article saying his seniors sent him to challenge William Cheung. Which matches certain recent claims by others you can investigate for yourself, though why you would bother after all your desire to learn WC has supposedly evaporated, and you allegedly have better things to do, is anyone's guess. Unless you like trolling, of course.

If you look back through the forum archives, or using Google, you could find out more, rather than making a second hamfistedly obvious attempt to push the WC community's hot buttons.

[anerlich]

Anyone who still thinks this guy is genuine should look at the "Advice on Wing Chun?" thread, where he puts his foot in his mouth up to mid-thigh.

[Mr Punch]

Im just waiting for the " My dad could kick your dads ass..." posts.
My grandma could've kicked most of your arses! :D

Satisfied? (PS probably true - as a heavyweight sometime brawler from Birmingham's back-to-backs! :D )


Don't go Mr Mingatt! You have such wonderful taste in screen names, signatures and monikers!


Thanks for the compliment..but I'm afraid I must defer to you.

The point about the wonderful taste was of course, because you'd already had the good taste to compliment my sig!

As Justin says, the quote is from GunnedDownAtrocity, another poster, and the pic is, why, Mr Punch himself...


Actually..

It's pretty d-mn funny when some of WCs own say things like "Chunners are known to be among the most paranoid, whiniest *****es in the MA community"..
I'm pretty sure I never claimed to be WC's own, and they certainly woul probably disown me! I practice WC, but don't let it rule me...!

[Matrix]

The funny thing about this thread is that the person who has the most balanced POV is Dale.

Most people who have significant experience (whatever the field of endeavor) usually develop their own ideas, philosophies and approaches.In my experience I have found that if you take the time to go and speak to WC people of other lineages, you are likely to learn something. I have gone to train with others at my own time and expense and have not been disappointed. Of course, if you go out to prove that you and your lineage are somehow superior, you may learn some other lessons. ;)

[WoodenYummy]

I think what most folks are getting at is this is a really sore spot for the art in general, and there are multiple (if not infinite) threads and viewpoints on this very question listed elsewhere. While it is a legit question, it will be really hard to get an "objective" answer to it. My thinking is that Wing Chun is based on "principles", therefore many people will come up with many different "techniques" and "drills" to teach those principles. Just my 2 cents, hope this may help some.