Jow Ga of Master Kong On BSCLF lineage

[Fu-Pau]

In another thread hsk posted this:


here's buk sing clf's Carey Wong doing a jow ga set......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8gNLQxY9Q


To which I replied:


I should point out, however that the form in this video is not the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) Fu Pau Kuen form. It looks very “Jow Ga” flavoured in the techniques shown, but it is not the Chow Gar, Fu Pau Kuen as practiced in Chow Gar. Unfortunately I can’t get my hands on one to show as comparison though.

I realise of course that Master Kong On was originally a student of Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar), and that some of his Chow Gar came into his BS CLF lineage. This leads me to ask, as I have always been curious to know, if the Chow Gar in this particular lineage of BS CLF is (a) taught as a separate art, or (b) fused in with the CLF as a blended art? It is very rare to see any of it on the net, so I have always been curious? The comments at the bottom of that video clip suggest that the Chow Gar (Jow Ga) forms taught are the more blended sort, with names such as “Jow Ga Kuen #1” “Jow Ga Kuen # 2” etc.


There were some rumblings from within that thread that people were not sticking on topic, and although I thought that this was (at least slightly) on topic, out of respect to the thread creator, I have started a new thread to ask the above question [highlighted in bold]

Perhaps someone from that lineage knows the answer and can shed some light for me.

Cheers

[Vilmore]

all I know is they have a seperate jow gar form. And if you do drills you can just as well do some jow gar drill while you're at it :)
I dont know if they do it that way, I just assume it :) (so dont shoot me if I'm wrong) And I wouldn't know if they would do it regularly or almost never.
What the hell, what am I guessing, just ask Nick (CLFBSG) personally.

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Fu Pau, Do you practice jow ga in Perth?

Perhaps you could PM me.

Nick
BSG

[CLFNole]

Aren't there like 4-5 Fu Pow forms in jow gar? My lineage of CLF from Lee Koon Hung also has a Fu Pow kuen but it is nothing like the version in the video clip.

[Eddie]

buck sing clf looks much more northern to me. jow ga has a very specific southern look, tho i dont doubt that it goes well with clf.

when it comes to practicing strike drills, how would one actually say which is which. Whether you doing jow ga cup chow or clf cup choy, or jow ga gwa choy or clf gwa choy ;)

a good friend of mine teach jow gar down here. we have very close ties between the two schools, and I respect the jow gar guys like our own family.

(tho I still struggle with how they hold their staff or spear so close to their bodies)

[Tai-Lik]

i only know alittle bit about this relationship between Kong On and Jow Lung. i've been fortunate to see Chan Chow Wang Asso. Hk (Choy lee fut) perform two versions of Fu Pow Kuen during a celebration for Jow Lung in HK.



"I realise of course that Master Kong On was originally a student of Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar), and that some of his Chow Gar came into his BS CLF lineage"

This is what i have been told.


"Aren't there like 4-5 Fu Pow forms in jow gar?"
From my little experience, i don't think so. There may be various versions of the original from lineage to lineage or school to school.

I have seen the Chan Chow Wang Asso. HK perform during the a jow lung banquet Yi Lo Fu Pow Kuen and Lo Fu Pow Kuen (2nd Road Tiger & leopard fist etc.) It is my opinion that Master Wong in the video is performing one of these to the best of my memory.

Looking at the form performed in the video, it appears to me that the form has elements of Fu Pow Kuen, but what i find interesting is that there are certain sequences unique to other jow ga forms in the form performed by Master Wong. Although there are many sequences repeated in various jow ga forms, ones performed in this video appear to be unique sequences exclusive to other forms. my opinion is based on my lineage of jow ga and many others that i've seen.

If my memory serves me correctly, i think the Fu Pow kuen(s) performed by this particular Choy li fut branch are not peformed the exact way Jow Lung taught Kong On, but were created by Kong On as a tribute to Jow Lung.

In my opinion, looking at the form and certain details, it definitely represents jow ga and master Wong's peformance is excellent!

Best regards
Tai Lik

[TenTigers]

Has anyone seen 18 elbows from wah lum? It bears striking resemblance to this set. Is there a connection? I know that some wah lum sets are Hung-Ga-ized and even use the single finger kiu-sao. Chan Pui was very good friends with other Sifus in the formative years of his curriculum. Any idea?

[Fu-Pau]

Aren't there like 4-5 Fu Pow forms in jow gar?

Not that i am aware of. Though, as with most other forms in Chow Gar, I have seen many variations of the same base form from school to school.

... Oh... Tai-Lik already said that... sorry.

[Fu-Pau]

(tho I still struggle with how they hold their staff or spear so close to their bodies)

Ahhh, but that is the essential ingredient boet! ;)

[CLFNole]

I remember reading that there was a Fu Pow #1, #2, #3, #4, etc... maybe they were referring to different roads of the set?

[Fu-Pau]

To be honest, I have never come across Chow Gar schools that numbered their forms in that way. [Not to imply of course that I can in anyway say that I know of all Chow Gar schools around the world].

However, that is certainly not a tradition in the Chow Biu lineage of Chow Gar.

Do you recall where you saw/heard that?

[CLFNole]

I'll have to check. The way I wrote it was english so I assume it was just a translation from cantonese.

[Fu-Pau]

No worries.

Though even in Cantonese we tend to call our forms by name rather than number. Ie Siew Fok Fu (Taming the Small Tiger) and Dai Fok Fu (Taming the Big Tiger).

[hskwarrior]

i was honored to get this chance at meeting elder Kong Hing......

this photo was taken in 2001 in Fut San

[Eddie]

Ahhh, but that is the essential ingredient boet! ;)

Ha! you must have South African friends or be an ex Saffer yourself. Actually, my dad was in Ausy in the late 60's, and knowing him, Im sure I must have a long lost BROTHER or sister - hence the irony of that statement :cool:

[CLFNole]

Fu Pau:

This is a clip from Sifu Vince Lacey's site about Koon On.

"Upon arriving at Tarm Sarm's house, Kong On was warmly received and found the master to be very friendly and hospitable. Master Tarm proceeded to ask, "What style of kung fu is it that you were demonstrating?" To this Kong On replied, "My style is Chow Gar and the form I was doing is called 'Fu Pau Kuen Di Ng Lo' (Tiger Leopard form number five). When questioned who his master was, Kong On replied, "My master is Chow Loong.""

I read somewhere else about the 5 Fu-Pow Kuens, seems like there is Di Yut Lo, Di Yee Lo, Di Sam Lo, Di Sei Lo and Di Ng Lo (#1, #2, #3, #4 & #5)

Peace.

[Tai-Lik]

Fu Pau:

This is a clip from Sifu Vince Lacey's site about Koon On.

"Upon arriving at Tarm Sarm's house, Kong On was warmly received and found the master to be very friendly and hospitable. Master Tarm proceeded to ask, "What style of kung fu is it that you were demonstrating?" To this Kong On replied, "My style is Chow Gar and the form I was doing is called 'Fu Pau Kuen Di Ng Lo' (Tiger Leopard form number five). When questioned who his master was, Kong On replied, "My master is Chow Loong.""

I read somewhere else about the 5 Fu-Pow Kuens, seems like there is Di Yut Lo, Di Yee Lo, Di Sam Lo, Di Sei Lo and Di Ng Lo (#1, #2, #3, #4 & #5)

Peace.


There is only one (1) original Fu Pow Kuen in Jow Ga.:)
and the picture on Master Lacey's website of Jow Lung is NOT jow lung, it is JOW BIU.

[CLFNole]

Maybe perhaps there are 5 roads of Fu Pow Kuen? Could that be what they are refering too?

[Fu-Pau]

Nole,

I am not sure what they are referring to? As I said I am only aware of one fu-pau kuen. There may have been something lost in the translation over the years in that Kong On may have referred to fu pau as the 5th set in his curriculum? Of course since I was not there contemporaneously, this is pure speculation.

In fact fu-pau kuen is considered to be one of the “signature” sets of Chow Gar (along with siew fok fu, maan ji and double broadswords) so it would not make sense to me for there to be a multitude of them.

[Fu-Pau]

the picture on Master Lacey's website of Jow Lung is NOT jow lung, it is JOW BIU.

That is correct. The picure on the website is of my Sigung, Chow Biu.

[CLFNole]

Well I guess then we'll never know since this was so long ago.

[Tai-Lik]

Well I guess then we'll never know since this was so long ago.

actually we do know. students & relatives of our jow ga founders are still alive.

[CLFNole]

Tai-Lik:

I was more or less referring to what Kong On was talking about. Yeah his son Kong Hing is still alive but maybe things were taught differently way back when. Perhaps they broke Fu Pow into 5 roads?

Anyway I am not going to lose any sleep over it. :D

[Fu-Pau]

Tai-Lik:
Anyway I am not going to lose any sleep over it. :D

... nor are your bak sing brethren, by the look of the responses to the original question as to how Jow Ga is incorporated into their curriculum. ;)

[CLFNole]

I am not buk sing. My lineage has a fu pow kuen but it is not from buk sing as far as I know.

[Fu-Pau]

Nole,

I know you are not. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise - sorry.
I meant your Bak Sing brethren within CLF.

I am also aware that CLF has its own fu pau kuen that is not the same as ours.

This thread was for a question based on an alleged specific connection between Jow Ga and one lineage of BS CLF. In retrospect it may have been a better use of my time to do something else than attempt to generate some (mildly) interesting discussion. :)

[Eddie]

I’ve had limited exposure to Chow Ga (Im good friends with sifu Keung Kwok Ping down here), and I have had no actual exposure to Buk sing safe for internet videos etc), so Im hardly qualified to reply.

But, to me it seems that Buksing CLF has more of a northern flare, and from what I have seen, it seems like their approach is more focussed on that. To me, Chow Gar looks very Southern (footwork, body movement etc), which I suppose can go ok with CLF. However, I cannot help but thinking perhaps the only things that buksing schools took from Chow Gar, was only a few strikes and hand techniques, perhaps a weapon or two.

I like the bucksing stuff I’ve seen, and I like their approach to fighting.

Chow gar does that Seipingma / diuma combo stance which is different to many other styles. Oh, and did I mention the staff thing ;)

Either way, I have no doubt that the Bucksing sifus know exactly what they know, and know how to apply these different arts in their overall fighting skill.

[chasincharpchui]

the kong on lineage of buck sing choy lay fut, doesn't fuse jow ga and clf together.

[hskwarrior]

I agree here with eddie.......Buk Sing knows what they know because they don't have 200 forms to worry about. with that out of the way, they can completely develop their style of fighting which is one of the reasons they are so famous.

I mean, if ALL of you wouldn't agree that if you could have the whole CLF system contained witin the minimum amount of forms.......you must be out of your mind. but thats what happened with buk sing. plus, they develop things you DON"T see in forms. another reason why they're respected.

but i don't feel that ALL buk sing has the northern flavor. I definetely see some of it in the laceys, but when i see Sifu Carey Wong.......he resembles to me.....hung sing clf. i say that because he moves alot like how sigung Jew Leong moved.

there were only 5 students who learned northern style. Tam Sam had many students before these 5. I wonder if the northern flavor is what makes Buk Sing unique. at this point i would like to see what buk sing looked like before northern flavor entered the picture.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jf_snOHmTCg

the video above i believe is of a buk sing master.........do any of you see any northern flavor in that? I personally don't see it.

[Satori Science]

When we say that Bak Hsing has a northern flavour, it seems to me that's because we emphasise heavily on the notion of six harmonies which you see as integral to many northern styles like or Bagua (but is of course also present in southern styles) we move in a more cirular and fluid manner than you see in more classical southern styles like Hung Kuen.

I don't believe that the actually movements of the northern style influenced the Bak Hsing that much, in our school the northern forms are taught seperate from the southern and we don't use any high kicks at all in our southern forms (which you do see in many different kinds of CLF forms) On the other hand the coordiantion, and spirit of the style defiantely did. Tam Sam essentially took the secrets and applied them to his CLF. Somthing his disciples replicated and expanded on. Like my Sihing told me the other day, "I don't need a bunch of pretty forms, all you need is good horse then give me the secrets, forget the forms!"

When I look at Jow Gar forms they seem much more solid and outwardly beautifal to me than a lot of CLF, I believe they are a little easier to make look really nice. It makes sense to hold onto these kinds of patterns, look for instance at Dave Lacey's last vid, he is demoing a Jow Gar pattern and makes it look right on!

[extrajoseph]

An alternative route that Bak Sing could have taken is to go back to its own root. May be out of the 200 or so forms there is one or two extra ones that they could have taken on. Afterall Tam Sam did learned to fight side on from his Hung Sing teacher, may be the "Inside Curtian Hands" could even be more devastating delivered by of a Bak Sing practitioner. Who knows.

Instead they looked to outsiders to fill in what is missing ("I wonder if the northern flavor is what makes Buk Sing unique"), not that there is anything wrong with this, but imagine if they go both directions like the Laceys working with Chen Yong-Fa and learned from each other. I have heard in the past they even send one or two of their students to Sydney, but I could be wrong.

What I am trying to say is that we can all learn from each other within the family of CLF, but I guess it is too idealistic to be practical given the ego that we have. May be in another generation, fingers crossed.

[CLFNole]

This has always been my contention, that if for example a bunch of the CLF people from this forum got together and we all checked our egos at the door we would realize that we have a lot more in common then some of us think. Plus we would learn a great deal from each other.

Is this going to ever happen, no not is this day and age when people are more busy with their everyday lives but hey if even a few people were to exchange ideas some good would be bound to come out of it.

[hskwarrior]

sorry folks, can we get back to the topic at hand. this thread isn't about chan heung.:mad: it's about Kong On, and whether or not Jow Ga had been infused with some of the buk sing lineages.

i mean can't we talk about our respective non chan family lineages without joseph trying to steal the attention and put it on chan heung? This is why the fight will never end!!!

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Nole,

I know you are not. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise - sorry.
I meant your Bak Sing brethren within CLF.

I am also aware that CLF has its own fu pau kuen that is not the same as ours.

This thread was for a question based on an alleged specific connection between Jow Ga and one lineage of BS CLF. In retrospect it may have been a better use of my time to do something else than attempt to generate some (mildly) interesting discussion. :)


Maybe you should use your time doing other things..... The only thing I will say is that our fifth set in our jow ga carriculum is called Fu Pau Kuen... the others all have specific names etc....

When I PM you previously I attempted to be curtious however your PM to me was quite blunt so Its fair to say that this "mildly" interesting discussion can now end and thus you will never know...

To answer one other point made earlier, Tarm Sarm adopted his full side on stance on his own.

Nick
Buck Sing Gwoon

[Fu-Pau]

Maybe you should use your time doing other things..... The only thing I will say is that our fifth set in our jow ga carriculum is called Fu Pau Kuen... the others all have specific names etc....

When I PM you previously I attempted to be curtious however your PM to me was quite blunt so Its fair to say that this "mildly" interesting discussion can now end and thus you will never know...


Excuse me!?

Get your facts straight.

Firstly, you DID NOT PM me. You asked me a question on the public forum and publicly commanded me to send my answer to you in a PM! I did answer your question in a PM in a friendly manner, which you did not have the courtesy to respond to.

There was no point in me repeating the question that I had already posted in public in a PM to you.

This is a discussion forum, where polite people discuss things rather than run around whispering in mysterious PMs.

I asked a simple question in my opening post that did not require any private messages. If you did not wish to partake in a discussion then that is your prerogative.

If the answer to what I asked is sensitive to you or your lineage, or not appropriate for a public forum, then I fully understand and respect that and will not ask again. If that is the case all you had to do was politely say so.

Moderators please be kind enough to close this thread as the question asked in it does not warrant wasting anyone’s time and effort further.

My apologies to all.

[Eddie]

No need to lock this topic, as usual there are some really valuable info coming through. I usually like it when Mr XtraJoseph and HSKWarrior go at each other, that’s when most of the best info gets thrown around. Probably the only way to get Mr Joseph to share some secrets :- ).

Buck sing gwoon, most people on this forum so far has shown only respect to your school and masters. Perhaps it would just be courteous to return that gesture. The bits of info you give us, is more valuable than you think, and I think I speak for allot of people here when I say we all appreciate sharing in the knowledge some members here have.

If I could have a machine that can download your thoughts and knowledge, I’d go crazy with Mr Xtra Joseph and a few other members here.
:rolleyes:

;)

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Excuse me!?

Get your facts straight.

Firstly, you DID NOT PM me. You asked me a question on the public forum and publicly commanded me to send my answer to you in a PM! I did answer your question in a PM in a friendly manner, which you did not have the courtesy to respond to.

There was no point in me repeating the question that I had already posted in public in a PM to you.

This is a discussion forum, where polite people discuss things rather than run around whispering in mysterious PMs.

I asked a simple question in my opening post that did not require any private messages. If you did not wish to partake in a discussion then that is your prerogative.

If the answer to what I asked is sensitive to you or your lineage, or not appropriate for a public forum, then I fully understand and respect that and will not ask again. If that is the case all you had to do was politely say so.

Moderators please be kind enough to close this thread as the question asked in it does not warrant wasting anyone’s time and effort further.

My apologies to all.

Eddie i get your point of view....

fu pau, my only inacuracy in my sentence was that i asked you on the public forum to perhaps PM me first.... I didnt PM you first..... ur rite there. Anyway I did not command you...

You asked a question previously on another thread which I didnt respond to and then made the thread yourself to possibly get an answer... which you have not.

Nick
Buck Sing Gwoon

[nospam]

The pattern in the vid does not have a 'northern flare' period. It is not suppose to.

Re: northen influence in Bak Hsing - once again, depends on one's lineage. Not all Bak Hsing have direct Bak Sil Lum, although it seems various 'techniques' have been incorporated, but by and large, the influence was nominal in my estimation and definitely in my familia.

And I agree - Tam Sam was not 'taught' his 90 degree torso turn. This was one of his many derivations.

And regarding meeting and learning from group hugs - all I could learn from you are forms and then I ask myself - why - or I would end up teaching you but you are not a student of BSCLF. We do things differently. We do things better than most. Watch and perhaps one day it may sink in.

nospam
:cool:

[ChowGar55]

The performence of Master Wong is very nice. I heart his father learnt both from Chow Long and Choy Lay Fut. He's also Consultants Of Chow Biu Anniversary Banquet and a member of Chow Long Annual Banquet Committee in Hongkong.
So i think he is a Part of the Chow Gar Family and the tradition of Chow Gar lives in this School.

Greetings

German Chow Gar Association
www.chowgar.de
German Kung-Fu Association
www.vfck.de
Kung-Fu WebMag
www.kungfuwebmag.de

[Fu-Pau]

fu pau, my only inacuracy in my sentence was that i asked you on the public forum to perhaps PM me first.... I didnt PM you first..... ur rite there. Anyway I did not command you...

You asked a question previously on another thread which I didnt respond to and then made the thread yourself to possibly get an answer... which you have not.


Nick,

Thanks for the reply.

I started my own thread out of respect for you and so as not to clutter your thread with off topic discussion. I am not desperate for an answer to my question since the question was simply to generate some discussion and elevate said discussion above the constant CLF infighting that this forum seems incapable of rising above.

You do not need to answer the question now anyway. Since posting this thread I have seen other youtube video of BS CLF ‘Jow Ga’ forms demonstrated and can draw my own conclusions in that regard.

Again my apologies if this topic is sensitive to you or if I have inadvertently offended.

Cheers

Fu-Pau

[CLFNole]

So the only thing the other CLF branches are good for is forms? There is nothing you could possibly gain from sharing information? Do you really believe that?

[Fu-Pau]

:confused:
Nole,
was that question for me?
Fu-Pau

[CLFNole]

No it was to Nospam from a comment earlier that I found rather odd. Sorry I should have clarified.

[Fu-Pau]

No it was to Nospam from a comment earlier. Sorry I should have clarified.

No worries... actually i just worked it out :)

[nospam]

No, the other families have their merits, but as far as CLF training and fighting goes, it's covered. We could all meet and chat but talking gung fu with you will not change the how or why we do what we do. I do not require further insight. It would be more of a confirmation of the whys and the hows, I'd say. I would rather spend my time training within BSCLF.

nospam
:cool:

[CLFNole]

I think we have the fighting thing covered as well.

[nospam]

Good stuff. We all have to represent to keep it strong.

nospam
:cool:

[stout]

I do not require further insight. It would be more of a confirmation of the whys and the hows, I'd say. I would rather spend my time training within BSCLF.

Hows this different from you have nothing to gain from listening to the other families? BSCLF in general are better in fighting, because you fought more, you don't care as much as about forms and you simplified. As far as I know you don't have as much weapons in your arsenl.

[CLFNole]

I never meant to imply that anyone would learn anything earth-shattering from another branch member. What I personally think is that we would learn that we are not as different as we all might think. We all do things our own way no question about it and I wouldn't expect any to try to change anybody else but through exchange of ideas and methods some might look at things they do in a different light others might be inspired to take something in another direction.

A real problem in modern times is many people teach kung fu as a job and they have to look out for themselves in that respect. In the old days they all got together and exchanged ideas and concepts. Tam Sam was involved with the group that gathered and worked with the wooden dummies. I believe this group also included the likes of Chan Koon Pak, Ngan Yiu Ting amongst others. They were there to improve and this is something that gets overlooked today.

We all might think we do this or that well but there is always room for improvement in all areas. Just becuase someone is from say the Chan Family line doesn't mean they are a great forms player and just becuase one is from the Buk Sing line doesn't mean he will be a great fighter. It all comes down to how each person trains and what they want from their training.

[Satori Science]

BSCLF in general are better in fighting, because you fought more, you don't care as much as about forms and you simplified. As far as I know you don't have as much weapons in your arsenl.

My Sifu has a saying, you can have a lot of weapons but what good are they if none are sharp. When I use my Chop Choi I know its going in. Either it goes straight in, I cut an angle in or I figure out how to go around what ever is in the way and put it there. But regardless if you've trained one thing to perfection then fighting can become more direct. Also there is much more room to explore nuance. There are hundreds or different combinations and methods and application to that one movement. "Everything comes off the jab" as the old saying goes.

That said I have mad respect for all the CLF out there. I'm a firm believer in, "CLF Yat Gar". But I don't think there is anything wrong with emphasising diverstiy as well.

[CLFNole]

Satori:

Diversity is a great thing but I don't think we are as quite diverse as some might think. I think there is a common misconception that becuase one branch might have more forms than another that they don't focus enough on techniques. This is untrue. My lineage as a good number of forms around 15-20 hand sets but you know what outside of some different techniques somewhat unique to a particular set they have repetition and the same techniques over and over and over. So the result you do focus on things a lot maybe not as repetitive as doing only 3 hand forms but trust me they are very repetitive. The thing I like personally about a variety is that I can change up my training when I get in a funk and still work on basically the same techniques.

Peace.

[Fu-Pau]

In my opinion one of the best reasons to get together with people of different styles (in your case different branches/lineages) is not so much to “learn other peoples’ stuff”, but to learn better how “your own stuff” works against diverse people, styles and ways of reacting.

In my experience, our own egos can prevent us from learning more about ourselves as much as about each other.

[nospam]

Peeps throw out 'ego' way too much. For some it has little to do with ego and a lot to do with confidence in what one does and of one's family achievements. And good for you if you want to gather and chat, but that isn't for everyone, and in my estimation too many peeps out there do too much talking when their time is better served on getting real.

You look at what is called 'sparring' and it's crap. It's crap on so many levels. You can say gung fu is more than just fighting, but it's essence is built upon fighting; otherwise you become more art than martial and maybe the dance of wushu would be better served by having these practitioners.

90% of the gung fu Joe's out there dance about touch sparring or smashing heads with little to no style thinking they're the real deal. Go do your lineage a favour and learn another weapon.

I have utmost respect for those that step up and use their basics and employ their style from the young beginner to the old man. These are true gung fu pracitioners, and you immediately see the difference in the way they fight- may not be pretty but given time it will click, and in their growth lies the continued growth and prosperity of their respective styles.

nospam
:cool:

[Eddie]

I agree with clfnole.
as most know, I spend the last 4 months training fighting from sifu chow keung (TSPK). Truth is, its not much different to what we've done before. slightly different approach to certain strikes, but generally its the same. If I didnt know he was from another style and he didnt teach forms, I could even have believed someone if they told me he was a CLF sifu.

But of course, we (LKH guys) are the BEST CLF fighters out there ;), and our CLF skill is superior to any other branches :cool: .


:D

(luckally im on the bud end of the world and no one would even bother to fly down here to 'correct' me :cool: )

[hskwarrior]

anyways,

i copied this off of Sifu vince lacey's website in regards to how and why Jow Ga got into their lineage......


"Our Connection to Chow Gar

Our Academy's connection to the Chow Gar style is only through Grandmaster Vince Lacey's Si-Gung, Kong On, and his son, Kong Hing, who was Grandmaster Lacey's Sifu. Kong On first studied Chow Gar, then Choy Lay Fut, and finally Buk Siu Lam, Northern Shaolin style kung fu.

Grandmaster Lacey studied Choy Lay Fut kung fu under Kong Hing, and absorbed the Chow Gar style from him. This is the reason we have Chow Gar incorporated into our Academy. It should be noted that all other Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut schools do not include the Chow Gar style in their curriculum."

[Yen-Wang-Yeh]

Growth occurs in many stages. The budding flower reaches to the sky to soak up the Sun. The bud aggressively moves forward but then it flowers, spreading itself open and grows in a new way, no longer reaching for the sky but to its surroundings.

People are the same. Youth, full of energy and willingness to move on as fast as they may. The teacher is the gardener who nips the bud along the way and tends to it's many stages of growth.

Maybe some of us on here need to stop, sit, and watch the flowers. Understanding can be a mere observation away.

I for one can appreciate the many and varied flowers we all represent. One Family: One True Way.

[stout]

My Sifu has a saying, you can have a lot of weapons but what good are they if none are sharp.

definitely, you need to master what you know. for fighting you don't need much forms but If you are into continuous learning in other aspects, you are going to run out of material to learn. Buk sing on has three forms and few weapons. As far as I know masters of buk Sing has gone on to learn other arts and weapons from other lineages.

Just making a point on the separatist tendencies or why you do what you do or why we do what we do, etc. No "ego" intended whatsoever. There's so many CLF people or people who claim to be CLF and everyone thinks they are better, maybe thats the reason why we can't just ever agree...human nature.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Doesn't this form look similar to Shane Lacey's in another video?:confused:

[Buk&Hung Sing]

anyways,

i copied this off of Sifu vince lacey's website in regards to how and why Jow Ga got into their lineage......


"Our Connection to Chow Gar

Our Academy's connection to the Chow Gar style is only through Grandmaster Vince Lacey's Si-Gung, Kong On, and his son, Kong Hing, who was Grandmaster Lacey's Sifu. Kong On first studied Chow Gar, then Choy Lay Fut, and finally Buk Siu Lam, Northern Shaolin style kung fu.

Grandmaster Lacey studied Choy Lay Fut kung fu under Kong Hing, and absorbed the Chow Gar style from him. This is the reason we have Chow Gar incorporated into our Academy. It should be noted that all other Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut schools do not include the Chow Gar style in their curriculum."

I do think Shane Lacey is a bit of an ego maniac, however, they have the respect of legitimate masters. The Laceys are at least honest enough to state all their influences and intelligent enough to incorporate them!:D

[Fu-Pau]

Doesn't this form look similar to Shane Lacey's in another video?:confused:

Which two videos are you referring to?

[Fu-Pau]

anyways,

i copied this off of Sifu vince lacey's website in regards to how and why Jow Ga got into their lineage......


"Our Connection to Chow Gar

Our Academy's connection to the Chow Gar style is only through Grandmaster Vince Lacey's Si-Gung, Kong On, and his son, Kong Hing, who was Grandmaster Lacey's Sifu. Kong On first studied Chow Gar, then Choy Lay Fut, and finally Buk Siu Lam, Northern Shaolin style kung fu.

Grandmaster Lacey studied Choy Lay Fut kung fu under Kong Hing, and absorbed the Chow Gar style from him. This is the reason we have Chow Gar incorporated into our Academy. It should be noted that all other Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut schools do not include the Chow Gar style in their curriculum."

The above quote implies that they have absorbed the entire style.:confused:

Master Kong On was a student of Chow Lung for only a few years. I suspect that all Kong On taught to his CLF students of Chow Gar was a few forms that he created using Chow Gar techniques and principles, in honour of his Sifu Chow Lung. There is no documentary evidence that suggests that any of the forms practiced in BS CLF and called “Chow Gar” or “Jow Ga” forms are anything like the forms practiced in Chow Gar (Jow Ga) itself, other than they are characteristic of Chow Gar.

[Fu-Pau]

The Laceys are at least honest enough to state all their influences and intelligent enough to incorporate them!:D

Then, given that they acknowledge Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar) in their lineage, I would expect that they would not use a picture of his brother Chow Biu, and call it Chow Lung, on their website.

[chasincharpchui]

Then, given that they acknowledge Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar) in their lineage, I would expect that they would not use a picture of his brother Chow Biu, and call it Chow Lung, on their website.

obviously it was a mistake

the jow ga done in the kong on lineage of bsclf came from jow loong

ur jow ga has come from jow biu

juss coz the jow ga in kong on lineage isnt practised in jow biu's lineage, it dont mean that its not jow ga

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Which two videos are you referring to?

The one of Lacey at the tournament, very athletic compared to this video.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Then, given that they acknowledge Chow Lung (founder of Chow Gar) in their lineage, I would expect that they would not use a picture of his brother Chow Biu, and call it Chow Lung, on their website.

If you look at the lineage, the Jow brothers take over the art after Jow Lung passes away. Then, each brother passes the art to their respectictive students. Dean Chin was also a student of Jow Biu.

[jow yeroc]

Sifu Dean Chin was actually a student/disciple of GM Chan Man Cheung who is a
Jow Biu disciple.

[jow yeroc]

I don't profess to know much about GM Kong On, but his history says
he learned the original jow ga fu pau kuen then developed the 4 or 5 "roads"
or different forms of fu pau kuen. They prolly played the original quite the same
but the "roads" are all different tho adhering to jow ga principles. This is not
meant to be biblically set in stone it's just what i have humbly tried to gather
in relation to Kong On, Jow Ga and this discussion. Any input is welcome.

[Fu-Pau]

the jow ga done in the kong on lineage of bsclf came from jow loong

ur jow ga has come from jow biu

juss coz the jow ga in kong on lineage isnt practised in jow biu's lineage, it dont mean that its not jow ga

Chow Lung and Chow Biu and their brothers did not develop Chow Gar in isolation from each other. Chow Lung was the founder of the style, but his brothers assisted him until his death and then Chow Biu was elected to head the family style. The Chow Lung and Chow Biu lines are not so radically different from one another that an important signature form like Fu Pau Kuen would be so different in one line as to be practically unrecognisable to another.

[Fu-Pau]

The one of Lacey at the tournament, very athletic compared to this video.

I can't get that video to play anymore for some reason(?) But I don't recall them being similar, and I seem to recall that Jason Lacey was performing a CLF form not a Jow Ga form?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

[Fu-Pau]

If you look at the lineage, the Jow brothers take over the art after Jow Lung passes away. Then, each brother passes the art to their respectictive students. Dean Chin was also a student of Jow Biu.

As jow yeroc pointed out:


Sifu Dean Chin was actually a student/disciple of GM Chan Man Cheung who is a Jow Biu disciple.

Again I am not sure what point you are trying to make, or what the late Master Dean Chin has to do with this discussion?

[Pork Chop]

Buk&Hung Sing had made a comment that Dean Chin was a Jow Biu student, Jow Yeroc was merely correcting him.

I don't think the Singapore line, coming from Lam Chok Poon, traces it's lineage through Jow Biu and everything I've seen from their clips on youtube looks pretty different from the Jow Biu influenced stuff that I've seen over here in the states.

I've seen other buk hsing videos that look a lot like existing Jow Ga forms, like Chai Jong and Siu Hung Kuen; they may just have another name (which I was actually never told).

If they have the seed techniques & understand the principles behind them, does it matter if the forms are different?

[jow yeroc]

Yeah porkchop it does look a little different but i believe they still trace lineage
to Jow Biu. The "father of Singapore Jow ga" was a Lee sifu and i believe
he modified the jow ga. He had learned Foshan Cai Jia(choy ga), fut ga,
and a couple other styles i can't recall and extrapolated the best of all.
Whatever... their stuff looks pretty good. It's all yat ga as far as I'm
concerned.:) Anyway i got this info from the martialartsgathering.com site
a couple weeks ago. I'll check again to be sure i'm relaying the right info.

peace

[Satori Science]

Here's some Singapore Jow Ga, lots of similarites (obviously) and some difference from the Dean Chin family Jow Ga you see on the east coast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

[Satori Science]

My understanding of the GM Kong On link between Bak Hsing and Jow Ga was that Kong On had reached a high level of gung fu under his Sifu Jow Lung, that Tam Sam saw him preforming and instantly recognized his talent and invited him to his home for a meeting. Kong On's Sifu had died very early and Tam Sam took him on as a disciple so that he could continue on in his training etc..

It seems a little unnessacary to make distinctions, that "Sifu Carrie Wong's Fu Pow Kuen looks so differnet from another lineage" from what I've seen of the Dean Chin family Jow Ga on the east coast Wong Sifu's form looks very Jow Ga to me. Obviously it will contain other elements as he is also a Master of CLF. Much the way you see Jow Ga elements in some of the Lacey's forms & in Wong Sifu's Kow Da, it seems pretty natural.

My Sifu learned the Bak Sil Lum system from Tam Fei Pang and Chan Woo Lueng in HK and then changed the forms around to suit himself and his flavour. Is some one going to say that he isn't doing "real" Bak Sil Lum, I've compared my forms to my Hing Di's (a Student of Lai Hung) and they look fairly different but all the essential elements & movements of the style are still there.

[Pork Chop]

More of a contribution....
http://www.youtube.com/user/hahagohk
One of the big HK jow ga schools.
All those forms are recognizable to Jow Ga folks in the states, just about every form clip has the major "seeds" I'm familiar with.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Sifu Dean Chin was actually a student/disciple of GM Chan Man Cheung who is a
Jow Biu disciple.

Yes, you are correct, my mistake.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Here's some Singapore Jow Ga, lots of similarites (obviously) and some difference from the Dean Chin family Jow Ga you see on the east coast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

VERY impressive! Strong stances and technique!

[nospam]

Yes - VERY impressive! Strong stances and technique! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko&mode=related&search=

nospam
:cool:

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Yes - VERY impressive! Strong stances and technique! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko&mode=related&search=

nospam
:cool:

Great video! The Grandfather kind reminds me of one of my Sifu! I've seen this journalist do some other adventures as well.:D

[John Takeshi]

His crane stance didn't look rooted. Although it needs a lot of work, I enjoyed this exposition immensely. I look forward to seeing what he can do with more focus and power, which will come with time.

[Fu-Pau]

It seems a little unnessacary to make distinctions, that "Sifu Carrie Wong's Fu Pow Kuen looks so differnet from another lineage" from what I've seen of the Dean Chin family Jow Ga on the east coast Wong Sifu's form looks very Jow Ga to me.

You are absolutely right. And it was never my intention that this thread be a criticism in any way of the Chow Gar in Bak Hsing. As I said at the beginning, the form displayed by Sifu Carrie Wong is very characteristic of Chow Gar in content and execution. The Principles and technique that he displays are very recognisably Chow Gar. All I was curious about was whether Kong On taught original Chow Gar forms (ie in the same format as taught to him by his first Sifu), or whether he created his own Chow Gar forms based on his knowledge of Chow Gar to pass on to his CLF students, in honour of his first Sifu, Chow Lung.

The reason that I ask is that the Fu Pau Kuen that Sifu Carrie Wong performs (although clearly Chow Gar in content) does not look like the same form (ie in structure) as taught in Chow Gar schools (as far as I am aware).

As has been pointed out (and I agree) whether or not the Chow Gar forms in Bak Hsing CLF are “original” forms or forms “created” by Master Kong On, is immaterial and does not distract one iota from the quality.

I thought it would be a point to discuss… this being a discussion board and all.

[Fu-Pau]

Yes - VERY impressive! Strong stances and technique!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV...elated&search=

nospam



Oh oh! You’re going to have all the Mantis folks jumping all over this thread now!
;)

[Satori Science]

"As has been pointed out (and I agree) whether or not the Chow Gar forms in Bak Hsing CLF are “original” forms or forms “created” by Master Kong On, is immaterial and does not distract one iota from the quality.I thought it would be a point to discuss… this being a discussion board and all."

Agreed, which is why I discussed it. In any event I see your point.

cheers

[ironsifu]

#1. does your school teach other jow ga forms? like big tiger or small tiger, or 10,000 fist?

#2. is there a curriculum to go with the jow ga forms in your style, or is it just the form?

me, the form demonstrated in the youtube looks very clearly to be a jow ga form. i dont think any of us know ALL about jow ga, because theres so many masters around and so many versions. if we spend all our time collecting jow ga versions, we will never master the one we do to our potential. i think the master in the video demonstrated the form very good, so if that one form is the only jow ga form he knows, thats even more impressive.

its not rare to find a teacher who offers more than just one style to his students, i teach 4. but its also not rare to find one or two forms of a different style that is taught to students either. dean chin taught many other forms besides jow ga:
* praying mantis (bong bo, and 18 hands)
* white eyebrow (9 step push, 10 pattern something, i forget the name, and one called ghost something (fogot that one too))
* eagle claw (gune lic, jeet kune, ng fa, dai jo, and one that i remember the form but not the name)
* tai chi (beijing style, and another one)
* hung gar (tiger/crane, iron wire, staff form - forgot that name too)

sorry bout the names, my memory sucks. sifu never "combined" the styles, and he taught them separately whenever he felt like it. i'm sure the buk sing masters do the same thing. i'm honored that another master included our style. right here in my town, we have a hsing yi ba gua master who teaches jow ga also.