Tit Kiu Sam and "Village" Hung Kuen

[Erasmus Mingatt]

I have read now and then that Tit Kiu Sam had a link to Hung Ga yet..and there is a good chance I have this wrong..somehow he does not follow the WFH lineage?(is it wfh or lsw?..someone please set me straight).

I have read that some of the styles known as "Village" Hung Kuen owe their development to Tit Kiu Sam. Can someone please elborate what separates and distinguishes a "village" style from let us say..the TF or LSW lineage?(by this could you please explain..are the sets named and performed differently? or is there some other unique way of categorizing "village" hung). Is Tit Kiu Sam sort of like the man behind what would eventually become the progenitor model/temple for what characterizes a Village style? I didn't mean to get wordy..but it's difficult to explain what I mean..

I have read for instance that it was not uncommon for a "village" style to be sort of a mixing/melding of some other sets from styles of masters who may have either be passing thru town(ie: "The Village") or who stayed in the village and taught their art to other Hung Ga masters/students and therein lies the non -standardness of the style.

I have read that some styles are referred to as "old Hung Kuen"..does this denote the same concept(but a different synonym) as "Village" HG?

Thanks all for your input.

All the best..
EM

[TenTigers]

Village Styles commonly refer to those styles from outside of Guangdong. Any Hung Kuen that came down through Ji Siem Sum-Si, to Hung Hei-Guen,Luk Ah-Choy but did not go through WFH are generally referred to as Village Hung Kuen. (pretty snobby of us, isn't it:p)
Wong Fei-Hung is credited with re-formatting the system, adding symetry, aspects of the Tiet Sien Kuen,which he learned from Leung Guan in the openings, including the long-arm techniques from Hop-Ga, which he learned from Wong Yun-Lum, and for promoting the art to the public.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

TT,

Thanks for the input. When you say snobby of "us" are you saying that you teach a Village lineage?(ie: non WFH).

Do village styles have different sets altogether? There is a sifu on one of the other threads..from Germany I think..who cites a photocopied manuscript from Malaysia which lists all sorts of "Hung " style sets which I have clearly never heard of.

I am familiar that Master Wong Kiew Kit claims to do a Hung Kuen which also has many of these forms that seem to be rather unique to his style.

Care to comment?

Thank you. :)

[TenTigers]

I was actually referring to "snobby" being the labeling of these other lineages being "Village" styles, as if that meant they were less sophisticated, or peasants. This, of course is totally untrue, and many styles which might be referred to as Village tyles are actually quite high-level and sophisticated.
I study both WFH as well as a Hung Kuen not through WFH, but I cannot go much more into that as I am not (yet) qualified on this system, as I have only scratched the surface. From what I can see thus far,technique is technique, but the sequences are different.Dan Gung Fuk Fu Kuen, Seurng Gung Fuk-Fu Kuen, Fu-Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, Tiet Sien Kuen, Lo-Han Kuen, etc. This Hung Kuen is also played shorter, and relies more on short power.
could you send a link to this information of the manuscript, etc?

[Ben Gash]

This all comes back to the essential question "what is Hung Kuen?" Hung Kuen is by definition Kung Fu descended from Hung Hei Gung. What we think of as Hung Gar is the system formulated by WFH and possibly LSW at the end of the 19th century, but there's 150 years of transmission before then, and Hung Hei Gung lived into his nineties and travelled a fair bit. Hung Kuen, Fut Gar and Nan Sil Lum are all used by numerically small (I studied a system that was at least twice the size of WFH HG in terms of content) Cantonese systems, often interchangeably. Indeed, WFH and LSW often referred to their system as Sil Lum.
These systems have a range of forms, some including Gung Ji Fook Fu and Fu Hok Seung Ying, although these may be different themselves (the system I did had a Gung Ji Kuen, but it was very different), and of course pretty much all of them have a 5 animals form, but this is almost always completely different to Hung Gar. However some forms seem to spring up in several lines except for WFH, such as Jong Da Kuen (crashing strikes boxing). As well as their own forms, village masters seem to have swapped with each other, learned from travelling masters and otherwise acquired forms from other systems such as Mok Gar, Jow Gar, Hung Fut, Hop Gar etc, making for a very esoteric blend.
Personally I really like village Hung systems, they've got a lot of character, and often ooze "flavour", and often contain stuff you won't see anywhere else.

[TenTigers]

I believe Rising Crane does Jong Da. He also learned a different line of Hung Kuen. From what he showed me, it is very effective and straight forward. Nice stuff.

[Ben Gash]

My Sifu sometimes tells me of people he met back in the day who studied esoteric Cantonese Sil Lum styles, and some are fascinating, such as a Hung dragon system, which consisted of one huge form around 300 moves long, which could be performed against an iron dummy, and the form split in to and worked as a 2 man form as well! How cool is that?

[banditshaw]

Ten, Would the Five pattern Hung Kuen style also be a village style?
I have a book that says that it comes from Fong Sai Yuk..... The stances are narrower than the Canton versions and the five animals are picked apart and are almost forms unto them selves. All very interesting subjects.

[TenTigers]

yes, that would definately come under that catagory.
Then again...have you looked at that form? Not fer nuthin, but, I have seen alot of different forms of Kung-Fu, and that is some of the weirdest stuff I have ever seen. Then again, every few years, as my exposure to different arts and different levels of art increase, along with my understanding of Gung-Fu, I come back to things I once thought were weird only to find that they make perfect sense.
I will take another look....

[jmd161]

The thing you have to remember also, is, that most people within Hung Gar, don't know their styles history. So it's very easy to get confused. Many don't even notice obvious different flavors within their sets. Very few know that there is also Hak Fu Mun within Hung Gar, and the ones that know Hak Fu Mun is within Hung Gar, don't know which techniques are actually Hak Fu Mun. The Lama techniques are very easy to spot, so people tend to speak of it more.


jeff:)

[Fu-Pau]

The Lama techniques are very easy to spot, so people tend to speak of it more.


You see that’s something that I never really understood about Hung Ga…
In Jow Ga we have techniques based on the observation of respectable kung fu animals such as; tiger, leopard, snake, crane & dragon…
But who in their right minds bases their fighting techniques on a Llama?

















:D

[jmd161]

Hey Fu,


Quick question..I know that some lines of Jow Ga has a Chopsticks and Bowl form, does your lineage have one, and if so, do you know where it came from?


I ask because I know that Hak Fu Mun and Hung Fut both have these sets, and share a lot of other sets as well. This seems to be a set that only these three arts have in common. I could be wrong but these are the only systems known to have such a weapons set. It is rumored that Su Hak Fu of the Ten Tigers and Hak Fu Mun created this form, so I was trying to trace how it made it's way to the other two arts.


jeff:)

[Erasmus Mingatt]

TT,

LOL..you took THE word right out of my mouth. When I was reading the post on Yuen Yik Kai's 5 pattern HK..I remember thinking what I was going to post and after a brief apology that it was not to be misconstrued as disrespect to anyone practicing YYK's Hung, the only think I could think of was "wierd" or "unusual" because alot of the hand techniques: ie: claw of one animal vs. claw of another look..EXACTLY the same!! Like he does this move in the Dragon section where the pattern is something like "Dragon closes his mouth" and it shows GM Kai clasping both hands together where they pivot on the palms of his hands(almost resembling a PAC-MAN video game mouth) and it shows him crushing he opponents face.

[PM]

just a note: "village" Hung Kyun is just a recent, western term. in China, "old Hung Kyun" (lou Hung Kyun) is sometimes used when speaking of pre-Wong Feihung Hung Kyun.

[Fu-Pau]

Hey Fu,


Quick question..I know that some lines of Jow Ga has a Chopsticks and Bowl form, does your lineage have one, and if so, do you know where it came from?


I ask because I know that Hak Fu Mun and Hung Fut both have these sets, and share a lot of other sets as well. This seems to be a set that only these three arts have in common. I could be wrong but these are the only systems known to have such a weapons set. It is rumored that Su Hak Fu of the Ten Tigers and Hak Fu Mun created this form, so I was trying to trace how it made it's way to the other two arts.


jeff:)

Jeff,

I have heard of the chop stick & bowl set in Jow Ga, but never seen it.

I am not sure which particular lineage it is in... but if I were to guess at its origins I would say in probably originated at one of our Sunday Dim Sum gatherings... round about the time my si dai and I all eyed off the last Char Siew Bau!!

:cool::D

[TenTigers]

The chopsticks and bowl set must be of Hakka origin, as my training brother, who does Lung Ying Moor Kiu also was taught that set.

[David Jamieson]

Hung-wu, Emperor and founder of the Ming dynasty is connected with Hung Kuen as well.

It is said that overall, the Shaolin kungfu that was used during the rebellion during the Qing period that followed, was named for this emperor.

The remnants and variations of this over time that still use the name Hung can be called "village" although I do agree the term "village" styles is relatively recent in it's minting as a coined term.

anyway... :)