Hand Movement: Wasteful Motion or Deceptive?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Recently I had a discussion with some friends/training partners about hand movement in Kung Fu. Many CMA's tend to use hand motion quite often, perhaps for deception. The point of this in my opinion is similiar to the bob and weave found in boxing, although I personally feel the bob and weave is much more effective. The more a person moves, the less stagnant they are and become more unpredicatable in the techniques they are trying to make work. We have all probably seen this video a hundred times, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4JiNrU7jEk, whatever the Kung Fu guy was trying to pull off did not work (Drunken Style, ?) Anyway, how many on here use lots of hand motion or stick to a solid boxing/kickboxing guard. The pros and cons of each could make for an interesting discussion.

P.S. Just realized I put this in the mixed martial arts section, although relevant, my apologies.

[bodhitree]

Even with wrestling or judo randori you have hand movement that serves as fakes. It may or may not be large (personal preference and how 'safe' it may be for said sport). There is a lot going on even from a boxing guard, the movement is just much smaller (although visable to opponent). *said without watching the video due to being at work*

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hands are for hitting, grabbing and blocking, not for waving.

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, every hand movement in a kung fu form is a designed to work with you making contact with your opponents. You can use ghost bridges, empty bridges, fakes and shadowless kicks, but these are all well sold fakes with intent, you shouldn't be waving your arms without intent.

[TenTigers]

there is some movement so as to hide initial movement. If you were totally motionless, and then launched a technique, you would see the initial movement first. Bruce Lee called it a decpetive lead-probably another concept he borrowed from Dempsey, or fencing.
That being said, if you are standing there, whether you are waving your hands or motionless, you aren't fighting, so this conversation might be moot.

[SPJ]

In Tong Bei, you may start with a throwing palm to high. you may do it "slowly" as an inviting hand or Yin Shou to ask the opponent to "commit" to contact, then you start your countermoves.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0O9QTnu7Jzc&mode=related&search=

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In Mantis, there are many "apparent" and "hidden" hands and legs.

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each hand move does have a purpose.

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[Mr Punch]

I don't move my hands at all.

I am master of the shadowless head technique.

It was passed to me by my grandma (that much is true...)

[Mr Punch]

Well, ok then... There's nothing wrong with 'waving your hands' if it serves a purpose, namely to confuse crap fighters.

Personally, if I'm going to try and confuse someone or use some hand movement that isn't designed to knock someone's block off, I'd prefer to jab or 'seek the bridges'. My seeking the bridges is not that far off jabbing anyway: send out something that'll sting if they ignore that lets you know exactly where they are, and forces a reaction. Thus (hopefully) no wasted movement.

[lkfmdc]

Hands are for hitting, grabbing and blocking, not for waving.

unless you are at the airport, or leaving on a long vacation..... or you are using the special single unicorn horn hand formation to wave hello at a dear friend

[sanjuro_ronin]

unless you are at the airport, or leaving on a long vacation..... or you are using the special single unicorn horn hand formation to wave hello at a dear friend
:D

Is that part of the Kuji-kiri ?

[TaichiMantis]

You may be interested in some articles by my Kung Fu Uncle, Sifu Randy Choy. Although it may not mean much to you if you aren't familiar with the forms, you can still get an idea of the deceptive principles and techniques used in mantis boxing. Here is an excerpt from "Analyzing Thrust Foot Boxing" (http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy7.html) [Bung Bo]

When I first began my martial arts training in 1960 at the Kuo Ming Tang Physical Culture Club, I practiced the boxing theory of faking an attack to the eyes while intending to deliver a blow to the crotch area. Striking high to hide your low blows. Vice versa. Faking a low strike, intending to strike high at your opponent's face or throat was the prevailing theory at that time. In those days, it worked well against hoodlums, con artists, pan handlers, and the young servicemen. In the "Rules of Chuan" there is also a third part of this theory. Yes, you guessed it, "Simultaneously striking both high and low" (Shang Xia Qi Shi Zhi Die Fa).

You may also be interested in "Analyzing Intercepting Boxing" (http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy8.html) [Lan Jie Chuan]

The second palm technique, the "Back flapping palm," which is found in posture 11, "Snapping one foot up and flapping one palm at the opponent's face."

Referring to the "Rules of Chuan," there is the "Kicking techniques using evasive body movements" (Jiao Qu Shen Li), found in posture 43, "Mandarin duck kick" and in posture 52, "Whirlwind kick." In the Northern Praying Mantis Boxing system there are many "Hidden offensive techniques" (An Cang Du Zhuo) which can be found in posture 7, "An embroidering girl doing embroidery with needles," in posture 10, "Turning the body to dash out a strike to the opponent's crotch," in posture 26, "Trying to fish out the moon from the bottom of the sea," and in posture 32, "Getting treasures from the bottom of the sea." Don't forget the deceptive fighting strategy of mantis boxing. Practice the "Multi-directional fighting" (Si Fang Ba Mian Da Fa) found in posture 29, "Making a rubbing fist strike" through posture 39, "Moving both feet and smashing both hands." After attacking, intercepting, and then applying hidden attacks, follow through with palm and elbow strikes, switching directions executing double sinking elbows to and double fist smashes in different directions.

[xcakid]

Based in what I have learned so far. In the context of sparring, there are some hand movement that can be used as faints. When I was in Ying Jow Pai, we use to throw faint jabs to draw out a limb so that we can grab/hook/trap and use that to get in. Sil Lum we did a lot of outside faint (showing hook punch) to do straight line attacks. Or throwng a few hand techniques to set up a kick. I've also been messing around and done the ole popeye rotating the left arm and punch with the right deal. Didn't work but it sure was funny.

Now in a case of doing your forms/ fist sets. Exagerated movements with your hands is used for various applications be it throws, chin na, or shuai chiao applications.

Or your could also do the 3 stooges pointing style: "hey look over there......" , "your shoe lace is untied...."

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing about fakes, fakes of all kinds not just hands, is that they are highly "style specific".
Boxing fakes won't work as well, if at all, against a MT fighter or BJJ guy because they will react differently than a boxer would, same goes for other systems.

Imagine a just from style B faking a guy from, oh lets say SPM, and thinking that the SPM guys is gonna react in A,B or C way, when in reality, he will move in a drill the heck out of you, something that was not part of Mr, Style B's repetoire.

[TaichiMantis]

Or your could also do the 3 stooges pointing style: "hey look over there......" , "your shoe lace is untied...."


Hey! it works for Jackie Chan!:D

[Fu-Pow]

That is the worst kung fu I've ever seen. Drunken style my ass. More like blow up punching bag style. :rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The thing about fakes, fakes of all kinds not just hands, is that they are highly "style specific".
Boxing fakes won't work as well, if at all, against a MT fighter or BJJ guy because they will react differently than a boxer would, same goes for other systems.

Imagine a just from style B faking a guy from, oh lets say SPM, and thinking that the SPM guys is gonna react in A,B or C way, when in reality, he will move in a drill the heck out of you, something that was not part of Mr, Style B's repetoire.

I have to disagree. Yes, fakes may be style specific but that does not mean they will not work on said fighter of whatever style. If a boxer is fighting a MT in close and rolls the shoulder and comes back with an overhand cross, the MT fighter has a good chance of being KTFO'd. Same can be said with the MT fighter clinching a boxer and raining in elbows and knees. I understand what you are saying about certain styles reacting differently but it also depends on the individual.

[PangQuan]

IMO, the type of feints that will be usefull will depend mostly on the experience/combat understanding of your opponent.

some people are simply novices and will fall easily for flashy hand movements for distraction/feinting.

some guys are just going to have been around the block one to many times to fall for a lot of bs.

at which point your feints will need to be masked more as actual attacks, rather then flash to tease the eye.

the type of feint that will work, will surely depend on not only the fighter but the background they have.

but for each person your fighting, if you have not had the opportunity to study the way they fight, you will need to test what works while actually fighting with them. some guys fall for different things, even from the same styles....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have to disagree. Yes, fakes may be style specific but that does not mean they will not work on said fighter of whatever style. If a boxer is fighting a MT in close and rolls the shoulder and comes back with an overhand cross, the MT fighter has a good chance of being KTFO'd. Same can be said with the MT fighter clinching a boxer and raining in elbows and knees. I understand what you are saying about certain styles reacting differently but it also depends on the individual.

I think you need to re-read my post.

[SevenStar]

If I had a scale of priority, I would place head movement above hand movement. head movement keeps my head off of a single line, thus making it hader to hit, assuming you aren't using repetitive, predictable motion. Moving hands can leave you exposed to be hit, especially if your head isn't also moving. hand movement, IMO should be slight, and with intent - like faking a strike.

[PangQuan]

If I had a scale of priority, I would place head movement above hand movement. head movement keeps my head off of a single line, thus making it hader to hit, assuming you aren't using repetitive, predictable motion. Moving hands can leave you exposed to be hit, especially if your head isn't also moving. hand movement, IMO should be slight, and with intent - like faking a strike.

agreed

the only real hand movement I would make, other than feint/fakes, would be to adjust my guard slightly based on what my opponent might be doing.

[Yum Cha]

Ronin, you suprise me.

All confrontations go through a cycle. There are many stages before blows are exchanged, whether you are aware of them or not. If you are ambushed, blind sided, or sucker punched, you simply missed the threat and escalation due to the other person's strategy.

Fact is, there are stages, raising the intention, selection, positioning, etc.

If you fail to position yourself strategically at an advantage before the first blow is thrown, you have a weaker position than the alternative. Pretty simple.

The engagement phase of a conflict, getting into range, selecting your target, avoiding being hit, etc is every bit as important as the throwing of blows. If you do it right, you throw, he receives, and not vice versa.

So, hand movement, feints, distractions, etc are all simply tools to set up. Use them right they bring advantage, use them wrongly, they don't.

Unpredictability is an advantage. Domination or intimidation is an advantage. Controling the rhythm is an advantage - that includes making your opponent adjust their guard or footwork according to your feints.

Hand movement might be putting you hands up in front and begging for mercy just before you take an eye as well...

Hand movement doesn't do all these things, but it can contribute, if you read the situation right, and if you set yourself up right.

BUT, I'll agree with you Ronin, once the hammer hits the anvil, wasted movement is simply wasted movement.

[Shaolinlueb]

i ahve come to find out when people think of kung fu they think of wavy arms and such./ they know little. kung fu is just as direct and deadly as "karate" or "mma" its all about finding the right teacher that understands the principles. there are plenty out there who do.

[Dragonzbane76]

Boxing fakes won't work as well, if at all, against a MT fighter or BJJ guy because they will react differently than a boxer would, same goes for other systems.

Totally depends upon the fighter. You can't put people into brackets and classify what they can and can't do. Fakes work against anyone if applied correctly, what if I turn away acting as if i don't want to fight and turn right back in with a sucker punch. It was a fake and I struck first. Doesn't matter if your BJJ or MT your probably going to the ground in a heap.