The CMA Ground Challenge!

[PangQuan]

I pose a challenge to all the CMAists out there on this board.

In light of our current CMA ground fighting thread in the Shaolin section, there is a large dispute it seems as to whether CMA has groundfighting.

I am an advocate of the mindset CMA Does have groundfighting, yet that the wholesale teaching, training and development to the point of competition worthy proficiency is NOT in place.

The venue for competative demonstration being MMA of course as its the prevelant venue for showing the world your stand up and ground all in one fight.

SO THE CHALLENGE:

capture on video, you, your school, your class mates, your teachers, ANYONE who is STRICT CMA, practicing heavy on the ground, showing us the skills.

I want to see it.

so you may say "but uncle pang, we dont have the footage"

well guys, go get it, find a friend with a cam, go buy one, rent one borrow one.

just get the footage and post it here to shut me up.

:D

[PangQuan]

Okay, so I know you guys are all out there getting the footage.

I want to make it a little easier.

Just grab some footage at a competition where you, your fighters, or your trainer are using their CMA to win or do well against known, experienced grapplers.

Now, okay, so you still may not have the camera. Chances are someone at the competition/fight will. Perhaps from the opposing faction to show thier superiority over CMA groundfighting.

Get the contact info and ask them for a copy.

I know in the MMA forum Charles 'the fearless monk' Wilson went ahead and started the trend. I think he did real well. From his own words, its pretty much his stand up worked to the ground. But, Ill bet he practiced as well. In other words, constant training, that includes ground work practice, rather than theoretical possibilities.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46280

Now I know some of you gungfu guys are doing this as well. Ill be the first to state, and admit, that in my CMA training I have not had the opportunity to work the ground much at all.

I actually plan to take care of this within the next year or two, but ill probably be going to BJJ/JJJ/Judo to get the road started, as they can start teaching me a nice technical ground game right away, and get me comfortable in a realatively short ammount of time to be able to start learning the game.

Of course thats just me, I wont have my car painted by a police man, and I wouldnt have a mechanic work on my teeth....Ill go to the people that train and focus on the aspect I want.

[PangQuan]

I'll give 100 dollars to the first Strictly CMAist to submit a BJJ black belt in organized competition.

Anyone else want to add to the pot? A CMA grappler just might be able to submit his way to fame and fortune.

[SevenStar]

I'll add $100 to that one.

[NJM]

I'll add kudos.

[PangQuan]

so we are up to 200 bucks and a kudo's

not bad to start. I might add, im not dissing CMA, its all I know....well i guess i know other stuff, but in regards to MA, its all i know ;)

[bodhitree]

double kudos, and if they're in Pittsburgh dinner from a fast food value menu.


(one time offer must be redeemed within 60 days of said submission not available to residents of alaska or new jersey or where law prohibits, black belt must have credentials, void where prohibited)

[TenTigers]

Dim-Sum at Dragon Palace is on me!

[Golden Arms]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

[PangQuan]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

Ya, I get what your saying fully.

This whole thread is more in line with the gaboodles and gaboodles of pages in the CMA groundfighting thread thats i think on page 19 right now.

Im not saying any CMA people should go round trying to submit a BB Grappler, just that if they did, I'll pay em. And from the looks of it, so will others. :D

just a fun lil proposition in that can double as proof of a highly skilled grappler born soley out of CMA training.

of which is in dispute

[PangQuan]

i should say that ground fighting within CMA is in dispute...

Some say its there, some say its not, some say its there but not really taught.

like my rhyme?

I say, if it IS there and it IS taught, where are the experts that can claim a highly refined CMA ground game?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think CMA's ground game is two fold.

1. Ground and pound, which includes stomping, and kicking a grounded oponent while standing, and if you do go down, pound away while keeping on one knee so you can get up really fast and menuver to defend against his freinds rather than get tied up in a submission like snuggle fest like modern MMA.

2. Hit them in the head as hard as you can...WITH the ground.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh, and a third option is like the Fukien Dog boxing where the cma is on the ground, and defending against a standing stomp or standing kicker who likes to kick you when you are down.

[Oso]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

[PangQuan]

I think CMA's ground game is two fold.

1. Ground and pound, which includes stomping, and kicking a grounded oponent while standing, and if you do go down, pound away while keeping on one knee so you can get up really fast and menuver to defend against his freinds rather than get tied up in a submission like snuggle fest like modern MMA.

2. Hit them in the head as hard as you can...WITH the ground.

Excellent!

[PangQuan]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?

[Yum Cha]

I was told a story by a prizefighter from 70's china I've known for many years.

He was in the grip of a mongolian wrestler, and escaped using the Tyson defense, he bit his ear off. The wrestler submitted, but claimed victory because he was wrestling and the Kung fu guy wasn't kung-fu-ing.

Well, out came the guns, and the 3 wise men had to decide how the pot was to be awarded. The kung fu fighter won because he argued that everything is Kung Fu, and they agreed.

[SevenStar]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

[Yum Cha]

That other thread on the shaolin forum really is a mess.

[Oso]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

I guess 25 years of CMA isn't enough, eh? :o

my bad, here I go thinking I know something again. :o:o




I don't believe it. I feel I pretty much know it. And since no one is coughing up any evidence I can use a negative proof to substantiate my claim. :p

[mantis108]

Well, I am not interested in the rewards;however, I would like to share something that I share on other boards relating to this topic just the same.

------------
Kaveh Tahani used to training CCK TCPM/Mantis Kung Fu for about a year or so with me when he was living in Yellowknife, NWT, Canada. He is currently a student at Franco Kickboxing / Pankration in Vancouver, B.C., Canada and has been there for 5 months. Under the guidance of Mr. Franco, he entered in the middle weight Full Contact Pankration division at the 28th Can-Am tournament held at the BCIT on June 2, 2007. This is his first ever baptize by fire Pankration style so to speak despite a relatively short training period in Pankration competition format.

Rules:

No Knees to the head
No Elbows
No Punches with the person in on the ground....only open hand or Palm strikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuD7waUUvVQ

After 3 well fought bouts, he was awarded a silver medal in his division. This bout ended with him winning due to effective palm striking in opponent's half guard that I personally believe is something for traditional arts to ponder. The iron palm and short power generation, I believe are from his Karate background. The idea of disciplined attacks with dominant position, fluidity in all range and relaxation at all time are a few things our CCK TCPM brings to the mat. I believe those things coupled with Mr. Franco’s Pankration full contact training showed that traditional arts can contribute in the post NHB era. Traditional martial arts, either as primary source of self defense art or as component of cross-training, are just as relevant as any other martial sports in the ring or on the mat IMHO. Of course, Kaveh’s personal drive and enormous hearts are huge factors in his success as well.

We would like to dedicate this video to the superb effort of Mr. Franco and everyone at Franco Kickboxing/Pankration in guiding Kaveh in his transition from traditional marital arts into full contact Pankration. On behalf of everyone at the Yellowknife Taiji Praying Mantis Kung Fu Club, I would like to also congratulate Kaveh and his wife, Keiko, who has been most supportive to his martial arts endeavors.

I hope you all enjoy this clip. Thank you and comments and feed backs are most welcome.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

PS please check the following clip for similarity in fighting approach to Pankration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA&mode=user&search=
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA&mode=user&search=)

-------
We believe that Kung Fu training can be relevant in martial sports venues if it addresses the "whole package" issue whether it's ground 'n pound or ground fighting (especially a la BJJ). I can't claim any credit to Kaveh's success since he entered as an active member of Mr. Franco's gym. But I hope that you see that mantis Kung Fu training methodology has help in the transition from one discipline to another.

Mantis108

[unkokusai]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.

[Oso]

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?


chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.

IMHO, it's cultural...why would they call the only thing that even comes close 'dog' boxing? as I understand it the dog is not necessarily an animal high on the list of revered creatures in chinese culture...unless it's high on the menu!

the CMA'ists that claim grappling in the sense that we understand it today are in denial and would not stand a chance against a 'grappler' of an equal weight or level of experience.

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

[David Jamieson]

I pose a challenge to all the CMAists out there on this board.

In light of our current CMA ground fighting thread in the Shaolin section, there is a large dispute it seems as to whether CMA has groundfighting.

I am an advocate of the mindset CMA Does have groundfighting, yet that the wholesale teaching, training and development to the point of competition worthy proficiency is NOT in place.

The venue for competative demonstration being MMA of course as its the prevelant venue for showing the world your stand up and ground all in one fight.

SO THE CHALLENGE:

capture on video, you, your school, your class mates, your teachers, ANYONE who is STRICT CMA, practicing heavy on the ground, showing us the skills.

I want to see it.

so you may say "but uncle pang, we dont have the footage"

well guys, go get it, find a friend with a cam, go buy one, rent one borrow one.

just get the footage and post it here to shut me up.

:D

you send in a tape of your class doing classical boxing first, then we can wrestle. :p

[tattooedmonk]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

[Oso]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

complete bs, sorry.


something made up within the last 20 years.

[SevenStar]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

ground fighting or ground grappling?

[Shaolinlueb]

can't i just knock out the bjj bb instead?

oh wait, thats too easy. nm.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was actually saw an eagle claw book from the 20's from ngok fie, and inside it, it shows an eagle claw master applying chin na while on the ground ;)

[tattooedmonk]

ground fighting or ground grappling?fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

[unkokusai]

Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

I do enjoy wine, but you won't find any in that post.

[sunfist]

Id say even 'grappling on the ground' is too general a term. CMA clearly does have some grappling on the ground in terms of the application of chi na and such. You could extrapolate and say that maybe CMA has a reasonable submission arsenal, considering its vast array of joint locking methods, the mechanics of which dont really change on the ground.

What has never been presented is a cohesive system of positional grappling that is chinese in origin (and not an obvious and dubious retrofit). This would A: provide a vehicle for TCMA on the ground and give it a chance to be a truly viable system there and B: illustrate that historically TCMAists did practice and develop techniques for extended grappling on the ground, rather than it being a thing of oppertunism.

But then who knows, considering all the weird **** they came up with, it could be out there. I join the crowd in asking for it, but am too stingy to pay.

[SevenStar]

fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

sure, but ime, when cma guys say ground fighting they usually mean striking from the ground in an effort to get back to their feet.

[SevenStar]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

[SoCo KungFu]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is anyone suggesting that CMA have submission grappling on par with BJJ, Sambo or any of the other "grappling oriented MA" ?

[Oso]

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

well said.

my first teachers grappling came from wrestling, my second from judo. I have yet to see any grappling in PL at all and it's the most traditional yet for me.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

i've heard one person speculate it was related to the armor but I can't remember the exact reason...I'll ask him again next week.

....????..... I'm not by any chance going to be at your school for some Shuai Chiao next month am I? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling has exsisted in every MA and Martial Sport since there was ogranized MA and sports.

Yes, grappling is more "specialized" in some Cultures than other, many reasons for that, including the armour one mentioned in regards to feudal Japan.

And we all know that CMA DO have grappling in one way or another, though specialized ground GRAPPLING like BJJ and such is extremely rare to say the least.

[Three Harmonies]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:

[MasterKiller]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.

[Becca]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?
Or he knows that if the more biased people were to see "kung fu grappling" they would cry foul; that the kung fu stylist wasn't "pure". Hence, there is no point in this debate.

[David Jamieson]

all i can see in this argument is prideful youth hoping that what they think they have is better than what they don't. lol

having said that, I never learned any grappling in any cma I've studied and i still study and practice.

But, the wrestling I do is GR and when combined with cma kumna, I can do ok against jj pracs. It's not like mma is any sort of secret bomb. Its just another expression of martial art and it certainly has more than its fair share of not very good practitioners like any other practice.

Now that it is really popular, it probably has more people than ever that really suck at it. :p

[tattooedmonk]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:and because you and oso said it that makes it true right??:rolleyes:

If you guys are having problems witht this I am glad . Maybe it will help you utilize the techniques in your forms more and explore your individual arts to a profound level.

NHB / MMA has a lot of you really f#cked up.

A lot of it has to do with ego and testosterone.

And someone in CMA going into NHB competitions will prove nothing other than they can adapt to the sport....... which anyone can.

Maybe the CMA community is affraid that they will get their asses handed to them or maybe we just do not care about what MMA and NHB is about ....which is ego , money , fame , etc. .

This is not what CMA is about.

It is just a reflection of our times, just like the Gladiator games of Rome.

I am not saying that is what it is all about , but for most it is.

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..

[tattooedmonk]

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.
These all fall into the catagory of Chin Na.
ground1.jpg (61.9 KB, 7 views)
ground2.jpg (87.8 KB, 6 views)
ground3.jpg (56.9 KB, 6 views)

[SevenStar]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake :cool:

tattooedmonk is supposedly putting together some clips of himself showing the ground grappling from his style

[MasterKiller]

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..
You are working backwards, trying to make reality fit your philosophy.

Seems like Kung Fu magazine has an article every month about Wing Chun grappling now. Where were these articles 10 years ago?

[Becca]

You are working backwards, trying to make reality fit your philosophy.

Seems like Kung Fu magazine has an article every month about Wing Chun grappling now. Where were these articles 10 years ago?No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

And to apply your theory: the first UFC was almost 15 years ago, but MMA on cable was unherd of before TUF. Were was all the fight specials before that?
... on pay-per-veiw; they were available to those who were interested enough to find it, watch it, and pay for it. Just as CMA grappling was out there, but you had to be interested enough to find it and pay for it...:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.

[Three Harmonies]

Tattooed -
We are talking about a systematic approach to ground fighting/grappling. Where is your proof that it is in CMA???? I am not talking about you extrapulating ideas from the CMA, I am talking about a systemized approach utilizing proven applied theory. There is none. Period. What little stuff like Fukien Dog Boxing, Di Tang, etc. there is, none of it can hold up to anyone with 6 months of solid grappling training.
Nothing has me ****ed up, reality is reality. Tim Cartmell is one of the few CMA trained fighters who has earned his BB in BJJ, on top of which he is fluent in Chinese and pretty much considered an expert in the area, and he will be the first to tell you that CMA has NO ground grappling!! Period. He has researched it, studied it, looked for it, and therefore I would believe more of what he says than some knucklehead on the net.
If there was a solid grappling system found within the CMA then why have we not seen one, ONE, fighter in any MMA bout doing it????? Why??? Sambo is barely on the radar screen here in the US, and yet we have seen many guys competing in MMA! The CMA are 20 times larger/more popular than Sambo, yet we have not seen one, ONE, in any MMA bouts!
Nuff' said.

[tattooedmonk]

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.should have been but was not. does not mean it is not there

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed -
We are talking about a systematic approach to ground fighting/grappling. Where is your proof that it is in CMA???? I am not talking about you extrapulating ideas from the CMA, I am talking about a systemized approach utilizing proven applied theory. There is none. Period. What little stuff like Fukien Dog Boxing, Di Tang, etc. there is, none of it can hold up to anyone with 6 months of solid grappling training.
Nothing has me ****ed up, reality is reality. Tim Cartmell is one of the few CMA trained fighters who has earned his BB in BJJ, on top of which he is fluent in Chinese and pretty much considered an expert in the area, and he will be the first to tell you that CMA has NO ground grappling!! Period. He has researched it, studied it, looked for it, and therefore I would believe more of what he says than some knucklehead on the net.
If there was a solid grappling system found within the CMA then why have we not seen one, ONE, fighter in any MMA bout doing it????? Why??? Sambo is barely on the radar screen here in the US, and yet we have seen many guys competing in MMA! The CMA are 20 times larger/more popular than Sambo, yet we have not seen one, ONE, in any MMA bouts!
Nuff' said.This is one guy and I know that there are others , but there are also alot of guys who are saying there is. Because this guy is more well know and has a BB in BJJ does not mean that it does not exist . I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

Why is everyone having a problem with understanding that yeah a lot of CMA schools master do not teach ground fighting ?? But many do.

So what if they have not competed in MMA matches, did you not read what I said about that ?? This proves nothing.

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is one guy and I know that there are others , but there are also alot of guys who are saying there is. Because this guy is more well know and has a BB in BJJ does not mean that it does not exist . I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

Why is everyone having a problem with understanding that yeah a lot of CMA schools master do not teach ground fighting ?? But many do.

So what if they have not competed in MMA matches, did you not read what I said about that ?? This proves nothing.

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

Dude, I am sure that many CMA teach ground fighting and even ground grappling ( though I doubt the grappling compares to BJJ), it way be nice if you told us who and where these people are.

[MasterKiller]

I am sorry that his teachers did notknow or teach it.

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers?

[bodhitree]

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers?

my guess is he is an "inner door disciple" and he got there by, um, lets just say working hard for the money....

[unkokusai]

maybe we just do not care about what MMA and NHB is about ....which is ego , money , fame , etc. .

This is not what CMA is about.



There's the oldest cop-out of them all! Right up there with 'too deadly for.'

[unkokusai]

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..

Here again, trying to 'theorize' something into existence. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

So why are you the only SD guy that got this knowledge from your teachers? I am not. we would train over eight hours a day in conditioning , philosophy, theory , concepts, principles, forms , etc I had really special masters who had experience in other CMAs prior to SD.It was their life and not just a job or hobby.

[PangQuan]

IMO

In todays modern world, we as CMA practitioners if we are to hold true to our traditions to be the best we can, prepare ourselves for as many combat possibilities as we can, and train to be the best fighters we can be, we must not ignore the ground. Not saying we are, though definately, some do.

regardless of the past within the CMA community as a whole, whether the information was lost/deluted/hidden, or whether they chose not to extensively develop a grappling aspect to their self defense, that does not mean we need not to.

in light of the popularity of not only MMA, but grappling in general, CMA and other stand up dominated arts must be prepared for a grappler. Your chances of running into a martial artist and having to fight to protect/revenge/annihilate your enemy are rather slim. However IMO if you were to run into a martial artist and needed to fight, what are the odds in todays modern world he will be a grappler?

I think those odds are high.

IF you were to run into a MAist and had to fight him. Grappling is and has been a wonderful past time, yet with todays mainstream media and television/pay per view coverage of MMA(always fused with grappling of course) the desire to learn MMA/grappling will be at a high compared to many other, less publicised and proven modes of combat.

with this mindset, to truly be prepared as individuals for self defense, we must keep in mind the worst case scenario's. Facing a knowledgable grappler is one of those worst case scenario's for those not well versed in groundfighting/grappling.

sure sure, fight might not go to the ground cause of buddies, but what about anti social people like me? I dont travel in a pack, so a grappler would have a hay day with someone like me, unless i learn to protect myself and understand what a grappler will be going for, and how to defend that.

[tattooedmonk]

There's the oldest cop-out of them all! Right up there with 'too deadly for.'Here is another problem with you you take things out of context . It said prior to this that it is also possible that they are afraid of getting their a$$es handed to them.

You are and idiot.

Jugaro Kano was the one who took the deadly techniques out of judo/ jujutsu for sport .

Even in the history of the art it is proven. Why?? .

So you do not think crushing someones larnyx is deadly or poking out someones eyes or kicking them in the nuts or hitting them in the back of the head, biteing, stomping on them, etc?? This is CMA/ Kung fu!!!

Then why is it they are banned in NHB /MMA then Einstein??

Then if these techniques are not deadly and the people that use them for real self defense are not deadly then why can they not be used?

It should say no holds barred with an asterix next to it.

[tattooedmonk]

Here again, trying to 'theorize' something into existence. :rolleyes:You are just an idiot.!

[bodhitree]

Conclusive proof that cma does not have groundfighting (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=772283&postcount=299)

[PangQuan]

Its just that the to deadly for sport deal is a great pillow for people to fall back on that simply do not want to compete, want to save face for thier art/themselves, and often times have no other reason to explain why you dont see a lot of trad. arts in MMA type venues.

The hinge here is that its true.

But that is also its own worst enemy, because its so obviously true, everyone and thier moms use it as an excuse.

its just played out is all, and the majority of people who bring up this element are tools.

It goes without saying that its much safer for the athletes to compete with these rules in place, otherwise the athletes would not be around for very long to amuse and entertain us.

The only true way to settle this dispute regarding "to deadly for sport" is to have a true NHB event.

Which will never happen in the main stream...it has, and may happen again. Yet you wont find this type of fight venue around for long because people dont want to lose eyes and die....though it should also be noted that in the past NHB events, how many guys were like "im going for the fackers eyes"?

none. i would like to surely see someone of a good degree of skill be like "im going for the fackers eyes" then to see the results of a fight with that goal in mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Too deadly ?
Blah.

If your MA needs to rely on the "deadly" for you to survive, good luck with that.

As for REAL NHB and VT matches, yes there are some and they are still happening, IF you look for them.

[PangQuan]

Too deadly ?
Blah.

If your MA needs to rely on the "deadly" for you to survive, good luck with that.

As for REAL NHB and VT matches, yes there are some and they are still happening, IF you look for them.

we should set up eye gouging and crotch kicking only matches!

[sanjuro_ronin]

we should set up eye gouging and crotch kicking only matches!

Dude, in my first VT match some nipple-twister tried to eye gouge me, TWICE, one standing ( I assume it was a finger poke) that got him knocked on his ass ( hook > finger poke) and the other when we were on the ground that got his face elbowed for his troubles.
Then I poked HIM in the eye, just for good measure.
:cool:

[SevenStar]

No one was interested 10 years ago. MMA was still considered fringe. It's only been in the last year to 18 months that it has gained enough popularity to go main stream.

And to apply your theory: the first UFC was almost 15 years ago, but MMA on cable was unherd of before TUF. Were was all the fight specials before that?
... on pay-per-veiw; they were available to those who were interested enough to find it, watch it, and pay for it. Just as CMA grappling was out there, but you had to be interested enough to find it and pay for it...:rolleyes:

but the arts were still there and being taught. I have old issues of black belt from the late 80s or early 90s with muay thai articles. most of the black belt issues from the 80s and 90s had the muay thai vids being sold both by chai sirisute and pupad noy worawoot. I remember gjj ads from way back. I have old kung fu illustrated issues with muay thai articles... these arts were being talked about then though they weren't mainstream. However, I don't recall seeing a single issue about CMA ground grappling until mma started to blow up. Then it started with all of "CMA defense against a tackle" articles and moved on from there.

You are comparing the wrong thing though. Compare art to art and tv to tv - where was all of the televised san shou 15 years ago? where were the magazine articles? If gorund grappling is such an integral part of real cma, there would have been write ups about it SOMEWHERE. Of all the chin na articles and all of the monkey articles, etc. NOBODY cared to talk about ground grappling? I saw articles about strikes from the ground, why not grappling?

[unkokusai]

You are just an idiot.!


Aw, and I thought you didn't like 'name calling'! LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

GJJ was in Lethal Weapon 1, with the article(s) in Inside Kung fu, BB and some other rag preceding and follwoing the movie.

[PangQuan]

Dude, in my first VT match some nipple-twister tried to eye gouge me, TWICE, one standing ( I assume it was a finger poke) that got him knocked on his ass ( hook > finger poke) and the other when we were on the ground that got his face elbowed for his troubles.
Then I poked HIM in the eye, just for good measure.
:cool:

nice!

you are now labeled To Deadly for Sport!

no more sport for you!:mad:

[Three Harmonies]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

nice!

you are now labeled To Deadly for Sport!

no more sport for you!:mad:

You should have seen the matches I won via chi blast !
**** Taco bell...

[PangQuan]

lol, now your definately too deadly!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

never under-estimate the power of a bean burrito, extra spicy, in grappling match.

[PangQuan]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:

This is a good post, and I agree to a 'T'

It makes you think of man in general.

Since when have we, in the history of man, ever known one man to hold all the answers?

Never.

We have always had to share information to improve our technology and the understanding of pretty much anything we have developed to a highly refined skill set.

why should we think today is any different, that anyone has the answers all wrapped up nice and neat in a perfect little cma package?

I think one of the largest aspects that contributed to the development of CMA as a whole was the sharing of information, I am sure many of you would agree with this.

As this information sharing, in China's past, was predominantly the sharing of Chinese knowledge, is it not time to add the rest of the worlds information to the total of what China has given us?

To me it would seem the correct path to follow in keeping true to the roots of CMA.

[PangQuan]

never under-estimate the power of a bean burrito, extra spicy, in grappling match.

Remind me to only grapple you on an empty stomach. ;)

[tattooedmonk]

You keep telling all of us that MMA does not "prove" anything. I beg to differ. They get in the ring and fight using what they know. It is "proven" that BJJ works. Smabo works. Muay Thai works. I do not hear these guys on the web philosophizing about what is and is not. They shut their mouths, balls up, and fight to prove something.
Conversly you have yet to "prove" any of the bull**** spewing from your mouth. I am happy to stand corrected in my assertations, but I want "proof."
To say that Tim Cartmell's teachers are ignorant and did not teach him something is a pretty bold statement coming from some ****ing troll that is not even willing to share his real name! Tim trained with some of the best their is in the 20th century. But alas I forgot that YOU are the only person that got all this "secret" training :rolleyes: I am sure Tim and his crew would welcome an opportunity for you to go over on open mat Saturday afternoons and teach them about ground work in CMA! Hell, look at that we can kill two birds with one stone. Not only can you educate Tim (after all he only has over 30 years of experience) and his students, but you can tape the whole thing and then prove to us all how you dominated them with CMA stand up and on the ground! Brilliant idea! I will be happy to retract my statement after that!
For those of you who have not experienced real combat on the street let me offer a bit of insight.....
Kicking to the balls, poking eyes, ripping throats, etc. etc. is all fine and dandy, but I have a question for you...... why is it I do not read about anyone doing such things when assaulted? With all the video footage of real street fights on the web I have yet to see ONE video where any of this happens! Not one!
One thing I have noticed on said video's is that 99.9% of the fights end up in the clinch range where grappling is top priority. Not all go to the ground, though the overwhelming majority do. But just about EVERY fight I have seen ends up in the clinch, and/or going to the ground.
Now before some of you knuckleheads berrate me with BS excuses like they are untrained, blah, blah, blah........I would prefer some video of your said "expertise" in these areas. Video will quickly shut up the nay sayers, your diarrhea of the keyboard will not.
Please do not get Oso, nor me, wrong. We both love CMA and train it everyday. But reality is reality. We have sought out other training because their is no ONE style/system that has everything needed to be a well rounded fighter. Period. Otherwise we would all be doing it. Nothing wrong with cross training, but keep things in perspective. You don't here Anderson Silva, or Mirko Crocop arguing about groundfighting being in their Muay Thai standup fighting do you? No. They are realistic because they know the limitations of the systems they have studied. Hence them cross training.
I use MMA gents as examples because they are out their doing, not talking. MMA is not the be all end all, but it is a venue that most of us have seen. Again we do not see a ton of CMA guys getting in the ring and proving ****. These arguments of "that is not what CMA is about" are the stupidest things I have ever heard! ALL martial systems are about combat. Period. The fluffy, foo foo, woo woo **** that many CMA have become is not the fault of the system, but the teachers!
Jake :cool:You as well as most the people on here take everything out of context . I did not say that MMA was not effective it is in a sport setting. I know some people that can use it in a real fight, however ,it is not a very realistic medium in which to prove it can be used in real combat .martial arts are about the intended effect. Not what MMA makes it out to be.
MMA is not about seeing what works it is about everything but that . We all should know what does and does not work.

you are argueing something that I never claimed.

In battle it is more than likely that a weapon would be used. H2H combat would be used if you lost that weapon or did not have one . Your last resort would be to go to the ground and wrestle with them.

Most people that get into fights on the street are not trained at all in any martial arts. Real martial artist do not put themselves in these situations the best defense is avoiding the situation, especailly seeing as they can be sued , prosecuted, and will do more jail time because of their skill. even if someone challenges and you beat them they can sue you and or you will go to jail....with great power comes great responsibility

Of course if it can be proven.

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills .About 98.9 do not even know what to do when they get there. They do it to neutralize the situation and if they do it is mostly ground and pound and not grappling.

[tattooedmonk]

Aw, and I thought you didn't like 'name calling'! LOL!No this is a fact.

[bodhitree]

Remind me to only grapple you on an empty stomach. ;)

Yesterday two guys were grappling at the club, the one let out a **** (f@rt) so our coach screemed "that means he's weakening":D

[PangQuan]

Yesterday two more advanced belts were grappling at the club, the one let out a **** so our coach screemed "that means he's weakening":D

LOL

thats classic.

I remember back when i used to practice sport wushu heavily, sometimes going for an arial tech you push yourself so hard you just export all your gasses lol.

my teacher always said it was good for the "lift"

[PangQuan]

he said 99.9 go to clinch range...not ground

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Monk
you avoid the main points and try to find weakness's in mine. Your philosophy of "untrained" people street fighting and all this mumbo jumbo is silly. I am trained. I have fought and worked security previously. Your assumptions are incorrect my friend. I have seen in person, and on the web plenty of "untrained" fighters go to the ground. Just because you do not train the ground does not mean you don't end up there. I have seen many videos of gang members fighting and going to the ground. I got news for you bro, these guys are more "trained" than 95% of the people on KFO! They fight ALL the ****ing time! They are so "untrained" that they use leather gloves in the dead of summer to avoid cutting up there hands. Perhaps they have never taken a boxing, or martial art lesson in their life. But do not be so naive to think that equals lack of skill! I guarantee you if half of the folks on this board would fight half as much as most gang bangers do, your skills would increase 10 fold!
There is no point in continuing a conversation when you are simply trolling. If you wish please do post proof of all these "theories" you have, and while you are at it include your name and teacher. I would be interested to hear who he/she is.

Jake

[Becca]

If it WAS there to begin with, it should have been taught along with the other skills of the system, regardless of "mainstream interest."

No one was interested...my @ss.
... Nope, bye and large, most people who wanted to roll gravitate to judo, jujitsu, ect. They still do. And Kung Fu masters used to be notorious for not teaching something you asked for, so asking for grappling would get you maybe 1 technique. And if you don't find some other way to show your interest, they still wouldn't bring it out of the cupbord, so to speek. You want some grappling? Then let your sifu see you executing grappling style moves in free sparring. If you have a fighting Sifu, they won't stop you from using it, just guide it into the kung fu equivelant.

[Three Harmonies]

Becca
Not sure what you have been told over the last 5 years regarding ground grappling in CMA, and teachers attitudes, but you have been misled.
Jake

[MasterKiller]

... Nope, bye and large, most people who wanted to roll gravitate to judo, jujitsu, ect. They still do. And Kung Fu masters used to be notorious for not teaching something you asked for, so asking for grappling would get you maybe 1 technique. And if you don't find some other way to show your interest, they still wouldn't bring it out of the cupbord, so to speek. You want some grappling? Then let your sifu see you executing grappling style moves in free sparring. If you have a fighting Sifu, they won't stop you from using it, just guide it into the kung fu equivelant.

You are incorrect.

[tattooedmonk]

Monk
you avoid the main points and try to find weakness's in mine. Your philosophy of "untrained" people street fighting and all this mumbo jumbo is silly. I am trained. I have fought and worked security previously. Your assumptions are incorrect my friend. I have seen in person, and on the web plenty of "untrained" fighters go to the ground. Just because you do not train the ground does not mean you don't end up there. I have seen many videos of gang members fighting and going to the ground. I got news for you bro, these guys are more "trained" than 95% of the people on KFO! They fight ALL the ****ing time! They are so "untrained" that they use leather gloves in the dead of summer to avoid cutting up there hands. Perhaps they have never taken a boxing, or martial art lesson in their life. But do not be so naive to think that equals lack of skill! I guarantee you if half of the folks on this board would fight half as much as most gang bangers do, your skills would increase 10 fold!
There is no point in continuing a conversation when you are simply trolling. If you wish please do post proof of all these "theories" you have, and while you are at it include your name and teacher. I would be interested to hear who he/she is.

Jake Guess you are taking what I said out of context again or miss interpreting what I posted.. I did not say they did not go to the ground.Why are you getting into street fights?? I understand working security and such you might get into a physical altercation but to be getting into fights .......?

And I am not talking about sparring and applying what you learn and teach in class either.

Also I did not say that street fighter did not have any skill or anything like that . most people just plain and simple do not know how to fight nor do they want to.

[unkokusai]

with great power comes great responsibility

.

LOL! I knew it!

[unkokusai]

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills.



Oooh, I hope he says a CMA master cannot be taken down! He's close!

[PangQuan]

1. those never trained in any MA, never fight, simply not fighters.

2. those never trained in any MA, fight anyway and build skill from experience.

3. those trained in MA, but never fight.

4. those trained in MA, but fight in some sort of venue.

5. those trained in MA, but fight on the street as well.

6. those trained in MA, but spar only.


those are pretty much the types i can think of when it comes to hand to hand combat.

can anyone add?

[Becca]

Becca
Not sure what you have been told over the last 5 years regarding ground grappling in CMA, and teachers attitudes, but you have been misled.
JakeBeen in the kwoon.;)


That statement is my own experience. I ast one time thougt CMA had no grappling. Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such. Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class. I have seen people come right out and ask to be taught and herd Sifu tell them that if they want to roll, go find a jujitsu school. But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me...

Flame what you will from that; I know you ain't going to be abjective about it.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such.


But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me..

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?


Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class. I have seen people come right out and ask to be taught and herd Sifu tell them that if they want to roll, go find a jujitsu school.

Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

[PangQuan]

This is a good post, and I agree to a 'T'

It makes you think of man in general.

Since when have we, in the history of man, ever known one man to hold all the answers?

Never.

We have always had to share information to improve our technology and the understanding of pretty much anything we have developed to a highly refined skill set.

why should we think today is any different, that anyone has the answers all wrapped up nice and neat in a perfect little cma package?

I think one of the largest aspects that contributed to the development of CMA as a whole was the sharing of information, I am sure many of you would agree with this.

As this information sharing, in China's past, was predominantly the sharing of Chinese knowledge, is it not time to add the rest of the worlds information to the total of what China has given us?

To me it would seem the correct path to follow in keeping true to the roots of CMA.

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't care much for MMA, outside the ruleset, for too many reason to discuss, suffice to say the "jack of all trades" factor is too high for me, BUT cross-training is truly the only way to benefit from the SPECIFIC SKILLS AND SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES a MA who train one thing above anything else.

You don't go to the dentist to get a prostate exam.

Unless you are one freaky mofu !!

[Becca]

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?
I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:



Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?

[tattooedmonk]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:


Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?Very good Becca.

[MasterKiller]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...:rolleyes:

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?



Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

Um....no. Does your teacher also send you to a boxing school if you want to learn to punch? Or a MT school to teach you to kick? Sounds like he's passing the buck, to me.


This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?
Us dumb Gwai Lo's can't learn real gung fu...:rolleyes:

[Becca]

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?


...Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such. Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class.
How much more spacific do you want? A minute for minute time line? As I said, I was rather spacific, but taking things out of context makes it look otherwise.:rolleyes:

And yes, if all I wanted to do was box, my sifu would send me across the streat to the boxing gym. If you want to learn Kung Fu from him, you learn it his way. Which is to say, the complete style taught in the order he thinks will produce the best results. This "order" is different for each student, as he knows we are not all cookie cutter perfect. You have to trust your teacher to teach. You have to have faith that he/she knows what they are doing. Or you quit. That simple.:)

[tattooedmonk]

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA. It is not the art that is the problem it is the teachers. I believe that alot can be learned from other styles who specifically focus on certain aspects of fighting because they are specialist at it. If you want to know how to punch a boxer if you want wrestle a wrestler, and etc,
Kung fu actually is a mixed martial art if you really look at it. Especially Shaolin a great deal of CMA are hybrid arts focusing on different aspects of fighting . Am I not correct?? >>>>!!:D

[Becca]

Oh, now you've done it.... You thought this was a flame war before....:D

[Three Harmonies]

Becca
You don't know me well enough to accuse me of not being "o"bjective! As Master has stated, you doing a technique in sparring and your teacher going "Yeah we have that." is not the same as learning a technique from him. Principles are principles. Their is no "kung fu" way ("kung fu/gong fu" means hard work, it is not a style). Their is a right way and an incorrect way.
So please do share what style you study under whom? Any video of you or your style playing with a ground grappler?
As stated before systems such as Di Tang / Fukien Dog boxing etc. etc. have basic ideas of how to kick while on the ground, protect from being stomped, and a basic sweep or two. Nothing extensive. Nothing applicable to someone who is actively trying to grapple on the ground with you. Basics sure, but nothing anywhere near half of the curriculum of Sambo / Judo / BJJ / Fusen Ryu etc.

This thread is a perfect example of why CMA as a whole are suffering in popularity. We have shovel fulls of BS being thrown around with nothing to back it up. We have the "I cannot ask my master-sifu-guru-sensei to show me something because it is Chinese traditon that they are stubborn....blah, blah," martial arts aren't for fighting..................................
And in 10 years when we ask why no one sticks around in the CMA we can look back at this kind of ****, and say, "Oh....we did it to ourselves." :(


Tattoo-
So are you going to side step my suggestion of playing at open mat with Tim and his boys, and taping it? Seriously they are cool, and are always open to being shown how wrong they are, and Tim especially will appreciate you educating his ignorant ass!
I did not say I fight, I said I have been in them.

Jake

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.



I flat out don't believe you. :mad:

[Oso]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

:eek::eek::eek:

[Oso]

I flat out don't believe you. :mad:

I don't care. :)

[tattooedmonk]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

:eek::eek::eek: I guess you missed the fact that I am no longer affiliated and have studied under other CMA masters.

You can think what you like .

You are full of yourself have too much pride and ego in the way to see that you just might not know all that you should know about CMA and that you just might be wrong.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't care. :)Oh yes you do. you care . I can see how it is with you and the guys that hug your nuts around here. You care when they hang on your every word ,so it stand to reason that you care when they do not. You do not have enough humility ,self confidence , self esteem, or anything else that you need not to. If you did not care you would not have responded to it.

[hung-le]

I can’t believe I’m posting on this lame ass site. Yet this topic is so sophmoric I can’t resist!

Does CMA have a ground game? No. That doesn’t mean you can’t develop a ground game that specifically enhances the skill sets of the art you are studying.

After years of CMA (and studying with a host of other Non- Chinese artist)
I have decent ground game and it doesn’t resemble jujitsu. I recently once again (i.e. worked out/with) at two prominent Judo schools in my area and yes I can give names..if anyone wants to call. One school is even heavily into Jujitsu. I could hang, I taped a brown first, once the Dan’s saw that, we rolled and I submitted a few of them (not all..but I could hang!)



Enough of blowing my own horn!

If you approach fighting from the premise that you have to have prowess against anyone no matter the style, size or situation, then having a ground game shouldn’t be a question.

Again!!!!!! that doesn’t mean you have to build a jujitsu repertoire, you can use other tools and be just as effective (look at Tito Ortiz’s ground and pound style…I kind of mimic that not by design but just by doing. if that makes sense…It certainly isn’t Jujitsu.

[Oso]

I guess you missed the fact that I am no longer affiliated and have studied under other CMA masters.

No, I didn't. I was just being an ass.

You can think what you like .

thanks.

You are full of yourself have too much pride and ego in the way to see that you just might not know all that you should know about CMA and that you just might be wrong.

lol, you're taking my stance in this thread as my entire personality. that's ok. you don't know me.

[Oso]

Oh yes you do. you care . I can see how it is with you and the guys that hug your nuts around here. You care when they hang on your every word ,so it stand to reason that you care when they do not. You do not have enough humility ,self confidence , self esteem, or anything else that you need not to. If you did not care you would not have responded to it.

raoflmao. you're too much. thanks for the laugh.

I hope all my nut huggers feel especially good right now...do me a favor would ya? the left one is a might itchy. :p

[SoCo KungFu]

Becca...between Oso and 3 harmonies there is about 40 years of TCMA experience. Oso even in your own style. You've been in PL what? 5 years? Your statement of time training to get to the good stuff is completely off. Heck my Sigung has some 35 years in CMA (mantis/pai lum), 13 under D.K.Pai himself. And he still got his ground game from JMA. My sifu 20 years in CMA and his ground from Gracie JJ. In my own 8 years mantis/pai lum hybrid, I still had to get my ground from JJ. Can ya guess what that tells me?

[SoCo KungFu]

Tattoo, its great that you are enthusiastic for your art. But the people you are calling out have historically been some of the more outspoken in favor of CMA on the forums. Dude part of knowing the strength in your art is understanding and accepting its weaknesses. Hell I lived in Japan and trained with some kick ass old Japanese dudes and I STILL think kung fu is the ****! BUT sometimes you just got to call it like it is. You owe it to yourself as an artist AND to your art to make it stronger. Evolve man

[Oso]

Becca...between Oso and 3 harmonies there is about 40 years of TCMA experience. Oso even in your own style. You've been in PL what? 5 years?

actually, it will be 4 in september.

Your statement of time training to get to the good stuff is completely off.

me? or Becca?

Heck my Sigung has some 35 years in CMA (mantis/pai lum), 13 under D.K.Pai himself. And he still got his ground game from JMA. My sifu 20 years in CMA and his ground from Gracie JJ. In my own 8 years mantis/pai lum hybrid, I still had to get my ground from JJ. Can ya guess what that tells me?

t'aint no ground in CMA. :)



slightly off topic:

'good stuff' is a myth. either it's 'good' from the beginning or it isn't.

that's another problem with a lot (not all) cma styles, the perpetuation that you have to put a lot of time in to get the good stuff.

my first teacher; the 'stuff' he taught allowed me to put a brown belt from the local tkd teacher on his ass in the first clash after just 2 months of training.


one of the things I liked about Pong Lai is that it challenged me from day 1.

still does.

[SoCo KungFu]

Oso I was refering to Becca's 5 years. Thats what the pro says. And you do pong lai? I coulda swore somewhere I thought you listed Pai Lum but gaaahhh....too many PL's!

[Three Harmonies]

Speaking of which what is SD? Southern Dragon?
Jake :cool:

[PangQuan]

Speaking of which what is SD? Southern Dragon?
Jake :cool:

I'm thinking they mean Shaolin Do

[tattooedmonk]

Tattoo, its great that you are enthusiastic for your art. But the people you are calling out have historically been some of the more outspoken in favor of CMA on the forums. Dude part of knowing the strength in your art is understanding and accepting its weaknesses. Hell I lived in Japan and trained with some kick ass old Japanese dudes and I STILL think kung fu is the ****! BUT sometimes you just got to call it like it is. You owe it to yourself as an artist AND to your art to make it stronger. Evolve man Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.

[unkokusai]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.


BWaaahahahahahaaaaaaAHAHAHAHAahahaaaaa!

Do you have your own theme music?

[SevenStar]

You as well as most the people on here take everything out of context . I did not say that MMA was not effective it is in a sport setting. I know some people that can use it in a real fight, however ,it is not a very realistic medium in which to prove it can be used in real combat .martial arts are about the intended effect. Not what MMA makes it out to be.
MMA is not about seeing what works it is about everything but that . We all should know what does and does not work.

you are argueing something that I never claimed.

In battle it is more than likely that a weapon would be used. H2H combat would be used if you lost that weapon or did not have one . Your last resort would be to go to the ground and wrestle with them.

Most people that get into fights on the street are not trained at all in any martial arts. Real martial artist do not put themselves in these situations the best defense is avoiding the situation, especailly seeing as they can be sued , prosecuted, and will do more jail time because of their skill. even if someone challenges and you beat them they can sue you and or you will go to jail....with great power comes great responsibility

Of course if it can be proven.

As for 99.9 percent of fight going to the ground, it is because of the lack of fighting skills .About 98.9 do not even know what to do when they get there. They do it to neutralize the situation and if they do it is mostly ground and pound and not grappling.

this is a post full of excuses. regardless of whether or not mma is exactly the same as a real fight, it's the closest thing out there. you state that one should already know which techniques work, but if you aren't testing them then how do you know? by relying on the word of others? ninja please.

going to the ground was a last resort on a battlefield full of guys with swords, sure. in modern times there are several advantages as well as some disadvantages.

I am not sure what you are getting at with the streetfight thing. who cares if most people involved in altercations are non-trained? you should be training for the worst case scenarios, not the reverse.
the 80% thing was a police stat... and cops deliberately try to take several altercations to the ground.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art .

Sorry.

The weakness in the art is that it is not taught properly and to the fullest extent of it's potential ,not because it is missing groundfighting , because it is not.

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.

Tattoo, whom my I ask is your teacher? And how long have you trained in MA? Just curious...

[SoCo KungFu]

Thanks. I do not care who they have learned from or who they are on this board. They did not learn from someone that knew the fullest extent of their art . That is quite a bold statement and very out of bounds. At least in Oso's case, I dont know him however I do know of the group he at least recently has been with. I know of his Sigung and can assume who his sifu. And I assure they are quite high caliber. As example the KF world is quite small. Do mind your bridges.

[MasterKiller]

How much more spacific do you want? A minute for minute time line? As I said, I was rather spacific, but taking things out of context makes it look otherwise.:rolleyes:

WTF?! Are you retarded today?

WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO LOCK JOINTS AND ARMBAR??????

YOU SAID:

But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me...

BUT FIRST YOU SAID

Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such.

SO Who The F@ck TAUGHT YOU IF NOT YOUR FIRST SIFU?????

[Three Harmonies]

PLEASE tell me SD does NOT mean Shaolin Do!?!?!?!??!?!?!
I just wasted all my time arguing with a Shaolin Do-nut!?!?!? I am going off to drink heavily:(:(:eek:

[Oso]

Oso I was refering to Becca's 5 years. Thats what the pro says. And you do pong lai? I coulda swore somewhere I thought you listed Pai Lum but gaaahhh....too many PL's!


check, just clarifying.


i sparred a pai lum guy about 20 years ago if that counts : )

oh, and the father of one of my students did pai lum in Orlando way back when.

[MasterKiller]

PLEASE tell me SD does NOT mean Shaolin Do!?!?!?!??!?!?!
I just wasted all my time arguing with a Shaolin Do-nut!?!?!? I am going off to drink heavily:(:(:eek:

And he's the nuttiest one yet.

[Three Harmonies]

Why didn't you guys warn me??????

[Oso]

yer a big boy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just saw a Bruce lee flick...in his first fight on Han's Island, he wins by making his opponent tap from some sort of armbar on the ground......

[Merryprankster]

From my experience with CMA and practitioners/ masters they do not care about this crap. . The competition is within and not about what MMA makes it out to be.

This is all ego, testosterone , money and fame filled bull****.

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons), the rest of your statement reveals such a misunderstanding as to be "not even wrong." (thank you wolfgang pauli).

You have stumbled onto a pet peeve of mine, because I know from personal experience what ego and "testosterone," do to a competitor; they inhibit performance. I won't deny that the MARKETING is often designed to appeal to the "ego and testosterone," but image and substance are not always the same.

In short: MMA practitioners and competitors in general compete because they are competitors...it's like asking a writer why they write - they are compelled internally to do so. Those who are successful have dedicated, extremely taxing, training regimens, tremendous personal conviction in their own capability and a willingness to lay it all on the line, in public, against the best competition they can find.

Ego inhibits this process because it is AFRAID TO FAIL. A person who is afraid to fail does not embark on a dedicated, extremely taxing training regimen at all, because they might not make it through or do so raggedly, or expose themselves to getting beat by somebody they might normally win against...they make excuses for their poor performance, all to preserve their image of themselves. They lack conviction in their capability - they are the guys who are trying to WIN against their partners instead of TRAIN - always trying to prove themselves relatively, instead of focusing on mastery and absolute gains, knowing that that is how formidible competence arises. They will even go so far as to only train with those they CAN beat, or not even try when they train with those better than them. Finally, they do not lay themselves on the line against the best competition available. They want to win, not test themselves, and stick with competition levels they know they will dominate, 99 times out of 100.

Bottom line - the purpose of MMA competition is individually determined. There are some for whom ego is the primary motivator, but the best have reined it in a long time ago.

[Knifefighter]

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons).

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."

[Oso]

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."


you short change a number of us.

[Three Harmonies]

AS much as I hate to admit it, KF hit the nail on the head! I have zero tolerance for the "On the street my technique would be deadly!" bull**** anymore! Just heard it the other day from a teacher that has over 30 years, about his Baji Fa Jin being able to kill someone!! :rolleyes::eek::mad:
Jake

[Three Harmonies]

Oso-Thanks for watching my back partner:mad:;)

You have to admit brother those of us trying to break that mold are few and far between! More of the goof balls, then those willing to push the limits of their comfortability and understanding.
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

i was watching your back. you met adversity and survived...you are better for the experience. :D


I agree there are very few who are trying to break the mold.

[MasterKiller]

For a real world example of MP's statement, watch the Sam Stout vs Spencer Fisher after-fight interview.

That was an awesome fight, fought by two highly competitive guys, yet after the fight Fisher was nothing but humble.

[Oso]

no doubt.

i saw that replay last night (now that I'm aware that Friday's are repeats :o )

Fisher is from a town about 1 hour from here...waaay up in the peaks. not really a hick town at all...very, very expensive real estate up there. and certainly not a 'one stop light' town of '200' people as that idiot with Rogan said.

I've been a fan of Fisher and now I'm a much bigger fan.

[RonH]

I think they care very much and feel threatened by the whole MMA phenomenom (especially those who are teaching). Talk to almost any CMA practitioner about martial arts. I will guarantee that, without you ever bringing it up, they will almost always bring up the subject of MMA... usually throwing in their opinions on how it is "just a ring sport."

MMA as a concept was an inevitable phenomena.

[boshea]

For a real world example of MP's statement, watch the Sam Stout vs Spencer Fisher after-fight interview.

That was an awesome fight, fought by two highly competitive guys, yet after the fight Fisher was nothing but humble.

I had the random good fortune of meeting Spencer Fisher once and watching him train. I had no idea who he was until afterwards, mainly because I don't follow the MMA sport (or any sport) that closely. I can say that he is a solid, good guy.

-b

[SevenStar]

While it may or may not be true that CMA practitioners and masters do not care about the UFC or similar events (I tend to believe that most of them don't, for a variety of very good and very bad reasons), the rest of your statement reveals such a misunderstanding as to be "not even wrong." (thank you wolfgang pauli).

You have stumbled onto a pet peeve of mine, because I know from personal experience what ego and "testosterone," do to a competitor; they inhibit performance. I won't deny that the MARKETING is often designed to appeal to the "ego and testosterone," but image and substance are not always the same.

In short: MMA practitioners and competitors in general compete because they are competitors...it's like asking a writer why they write - they are compelled internally to do so. Those who are successful have dedicated, extremely taxing, training regimens, tremendous personal conviction in their own capability and a willingness to lay it all on the line, in public, against the best competition they can find.

Ego inhibits this process because it is AFRAID TO FAIL. A person who is afraid to fail does not embark on a dedicated, extremely taxing training regimen at all, because they might not make it through or do so raggedly, or expose themselves to getting beat by somebody they might normally win against...they make excuses for their poor performance, all to preserve their image of themselves. They lack conviction in their capability - they are the guys who are trying to WIN against their partners instead of TRAIN - always trying to prove themselves relatively, instead of focusing on mastery and absolute gains, knowing that that is how formidible competence arises. They will even go so far as to only train with those they CAN beat, or not even try when they train with those better than them. Finally, they do not lay themselves on the line against the best competition available. They want to win, not test themselves, and stick with competition levels they know they will dominate, 99 times out of 100.

Bottom line - the purpose of MMA competition is individually determined. There are some for whom ego is the primary motivator, but the best have reined it in a long time ago.

it's a pet peeve of mine as well. I have ranted about it so much on this forum, that this time I let it go. A non-competitor cannot / will not comprehend the competitor's mind.

[Merryprankster]

7* I know what you mean.

But I think the non-competitor can at least KNOW, if not UNDERSTAND the competitors mind. They need simply to say "I can see how if you start with this framework, it leads you to 'x'. I can't imagine feeling or thinking that way, because it's just not important to me, but I can see how you or somebody else might consider it important and reach these thoughts on the subject."

The problem is that the word "competition," arrives as a loaded term in a lot of people's minds, which leads to equally loaded conclusion.

Competition is neither good nor bad. It's your attitude towards it that makes it so. If you view competition as a tool to measure self-progress and competency, then competition will have a positive impact on you. If competition is a way for you to express superiority to others, then it's going to trap you and have a negative impact.

Because competition DOES evaluate people relatively, it's very easy to focus on the latter.

A competitor is always asking "How do I get better?" That requires two things - a baseline "How good am I now?" Which leads to "how can I tell?"

Competition answers both of those questions, in the most direct way possible

A bully might compete, but he's not asking those questions. He's asking "Who can I beat?" Totally different. I would also say that I've met some bullies at very high levels of competition, and I've always wondered how much better they would be without that mentality.

Anyway, I'm not going to lie and say that my viewpoint on this is completely objective - I'm certainly pro-competition for those with the right mindframe and the desire to compete.

A corollary to this is that somehow training for competition and in competitive sports is the "fast, easy way," or something. It took me 6 years to get my brown belt, 4 or so of which were spent at purple belt (largely because I had some ego problems of my own, which I like to think I've worked through, and which I still monitor, just in case). That's not fast and easy. Also, for most of that time, and through to this day, I regularly put in 12 or so hours a week at BJJ, NOT INCLUDING the hours of tournament prep done externally.

So when people talk about "the easy way," it kinda gets my hackles up. There's nothing easy about what I'm doing, and I'll ask you to respect that, thanks. In return, I'll respect the hard hours you've worked to do your thing. I might have some fundamental disagreements about what those hard hours are getting you, but I'm not going to denigrate the actual WORK or your dedication...

Ugh... sorry - I've spent all week listening to people pontificate about cognitive behavior theories and organizational behavior theories and......

[tattooedmonk]

.....but does this mean unless you are on payperview and have a 6 figure contract and are recognized that you are not even in the same realm of being able to defend yourself when it counts with the same ferociousness and skill??

Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

They do it for the love of what they do and for survival.

Basically my question is this; Do you all think that just because these guys are fighting in MMA/ NHB/UFC that anyone of them are so above the other fighters in the world that no one can beat them or even compare to their skill??

I mean if this was true then there would be no one that could come in off the streets, better themselves, and become UFC champion, and there would be no progression in the sport and basically the sport would die.

The sport is always taking it to a new level and champions fall. People that were once the best eventually lose . Some make it back to the top and reign supreme again.

There is always someone out there that can do what you do better than you .

Remember when they said that no one could beat the Gracies that they were the best fighters in the world?? Yeah and we know how long that lasted.

Are these guys the best fighters in the world ?? Yes in NHB/MMA/UFC.

But I am sure that there are fighters in the world that are far better and superior.

Instead of these people coming in to the ring on payperview lets see the MMA/ UFC /NHB guys come out to where defending yourself counts the most, where a fightis for your life or for your family or someone you love.

I am not saying that these guys do not do this on some level ,but lets be real.

It is a sport and it is a business and these things are set up sometimes and people take falls.

[unkokusai]

.....Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.


LOL! This is funny on so many levels!

[RonH]

If you continue to insist on posting responses of this type, the least you could do is elaborate, so the quality of the thread doesn't degrade any further than it already has. You were doing this in the last thread on CMA and groundfighting and I've pretty much given up on posting in that one because of the back and forth sniping. I would prefer if I didn't give up posting in this one, too, so I'm asking you if you could contribute something to this thread that's constructive, even if you are gonna write stuff like this.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Instead of these people coming in to the ring on payperview lets see the MMA/ UFC /NHB guys come out to where defending yourself counts the most, where a fightis for your life or for your family or someone you love

Reply]
When the Kung Fu world does this regularly, then the MMA world can follow the prime example.

[Merryprankster]

They do it for the love of what they do and for survival.


Good for them. Some guys are doing it to get paid doing what they love to do. How is that wrong?


Basically my question is this; Do you all think that just because these guys are fighting in MMA/ NHB/UFC that anyone of them are so above the other fighters in the world that no one can beat them or even compare to their skill??

No, that would be stupid. However, I would say that ON AVERAGE, a person dedicating a significant portion of their day to MMA contest prep is going to have a higher skill and fitness level than somebody who is not.


Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

This is an example of the loaded statement I was talking about. Do you really think Randy Couture, a 43 year old with a highly decorated competitive sport resume as long as my arm is looking for money, fame and an ego boost? This guy toiled away in an obscure (at least in the US) sport for pretty much nothing for over a decade. I somehow think an attention ***** looking for a paycheck and some fame would have picked something less grueling and more lucrative than greco-roman wrestling, and now he's getting some cash for his skills. Right person and place, meet right time. Why would you grudge these people the opportunity to make money doing what they love? Poverty isn't a virtue, and it doesn't ecourage being virtuous. It's just a lack of cash.

Individual motivations vary, and your comment is exactly the sort of bull**** I was talking about in my post on competition.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL! This is funny on so many levels! answer the questions that where asked instead being an immature idiot.

Are you saying that there no better fighter in the world thanin the UFC??

Then how could anyone new come into the sport and beat anyone that was already there??

I have asked you time and time again not to take what I post out of context and you continue to do so . Do you have reading and comprehension problems, add adhd??

[tattooedmonk]

Good for them. Some guys are doing it to get paid doing what they love to do. How is that wrong?



No, that would be stupid. However, I would say that ON AVERAGE, a person dedicating a significant portion of their day to MMA contest prep is going to have a higher skill and fitness level than somebody who is not.



This is an example of the loaded statement I was talking about. Do you really think Randy Couture, a 43 year old with a highly decorated competitive sport resume as long as my arm is looking for money, fame and an ego boost? This guy toiled away in an obscure (at least in the US) sport for pretty much nothing for over a decade. I somehow think an attention ***** looking for a paycheck and some fame would have picked something less grueling and more lucrative than greco-roman wrestling, and now he's getting some cash for his skills. Right person and place, meet right time. Why would you grudge these people the opportunity to make money doing what they love? Poverty isn't a virtue, and it doesn't ecourage being virtuous. It's just a lack of cash.

Individual motivations vary, and your comment is exactly the sort of bull**** I was talking about in my post on competition.
I know a lot of guys that are doing what they love but they do not have to be like a lot of the guys in MMA who talk trash , do not respect their opponents , lack humility,etc.

I admit there are guys who are not like that but better than 90 percent of these guys are.

I like Randy Couture.

But I would say yes to some degree he is in it for those things. But as far as I am concerned he is in it for less of that than most. That is why I like him.

And I understand everyone needs to make money.

But many guys who do this type of training are not into the whole MMA/ UFC thing but still train just as hard if not harder and are just as tough and dangerous.

. But like you said ON AVERAGE

Hey but everyone has their price.

[Knifefighter]

answer the questions that where asked instead being an immature idiot.

Are you saying that there no better fighter in the world thanin the UFC??

Then how could anyone new come into the sport and beat anyone that was already there??

LOL... when was the last time someone fresh off the street came in and beat a top MMA fitgter?

Right, never.

Nobody new comes in right off the street and beats the top MMA fighters. Anyone "new" who comes in and becomes champion works for years at getting good learning and fighting MMA.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL... when was the last time someone fresh off the street came in and beat a top MMA fitgter?

Right, never.

Nobody new comes in right off the street and beats the top MMA fighters. Anyone "new" who comes in and becomes champion works for years at getting good learning and fighting MMA.Not what I am saying . I mean a martial artist off the street . And yes it does happen.

[unkokusai]

I have asked you time and time again not to take what I post out of context and you continue to do so .



Time and time again you have posted nonsense and bull****, grasshopper, and you continue to do so.

[Knifefighter]

Not what I am saying . I mean a martial artist off the street . And yes it does happen.

Point to one example.

[Three Harmonies]

Tattooed****head-
You have big balls getting on someone for not answer questions in context!!!!!!!!!!!! You have yet to answer anything from my posts regarding showing us proof, going to Shen Wu and teaching my (according to you, "ignorant") teacher Tim Cartmell, how much ground stuff is in CMA, etc. etc. etc.
It is obvious you have little real world knowledge on the applied dynamics of the combat arts. You can end all the BS and speculation by a) just not posting here anymore, or b) post video backing up your BS claims, and I will be the first one to apologize for treating you like the village idiot you are acting like!

Gene-
I know you run a open forum here, but seriously get rid of some of these Trolls!!! PLEASE!!!

Laters,
Jake :cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed****head-
You have big balls getting on someone for not answer questions in context!!!!!!!!!!!! You have yet to answer anything from my posts regarding showing us proof, going to Shen Wu and teaching my (according to you, "ignorant") teacher Tim Cartmell, how much ground stuff is in CMA, etc. etc. etc.
It is obvious you have little real world knowledge on the applied dynamics of the combat arts. You can end all the BS and speculation by a) just not posting here anymore, or b) post video backing up your BS claims, and I will be the first one to apologize for treating you like the village idiot you are acting like!

Gene-
I know you run a open forum here, but seriously get rid of some of these Trolls!!! PLEASE!!!

Laters,
Jake :cool:Quite frankly I do not take on line challenges very seriously, but if I make it up to your neck of the woods sometime maybe something can be arranged.:D

How do you know what I do and do not know ?? This is a Kung Fu forum for Christ's sake.
Like you tell everything about a person by what is said in this forum!?!!??!

Well , what I can tell about you is this :that obviously your teacher /master was never introduced to ground fighting in his art ,not to say that it is not present, (This does not make him not good at what he taught you ), you had to make up for it by training with someone else, and you have issues with dealing with this ,( and probably many other things),whole thing because you just might find out that you are wrong.

You and the rest of these guys just can not answer the simple questions I asked, this tells me a lot who you guys really are!!

Gene, I know that you run an open forum BLAHBLAHBLAAAAAAAH

(color reflects the sound of a whiny b!tch voice).
grow aset of balls if you are going to act like a man.

If you do not like what I post do not read or comment on my posts. This goes for the rest of you as well.

I am an American, I have freedom of speech, and I am exercising my right to do so.

[sunfist]

I am an American, I have freedom of speech, and I am exercising my right to do so.

This here statement pretty much sums up your overall approach to logic, doesnt it?

[Becca]

Becca
You don't know me well enough to accuse me of not being "o"bjective! As Master has stated, you doing a technique in sparring and your teacher going "Yeah we have that." is not the same as learning a technique from him. Principles are principles. Their is no "kung fu" way ("kung fu/gong fu" means hard work, it is not a style). Their is a right way and an incorrect way.

I've stated repetedly who I study under, with which organizations, ect...

And I don't have to personally know you to tell wether you are willing to consider someone else's point of veiw... which is the definition of "o"bjective. I've stated twice in this thread alone that my sifu would teach me the CMA version of the grappling technique I'd done in class. CMA being kung fu in the American understanding, not the literal translation CMA basher like to revert to when someone claims to know the "kung fu version.":rolleyes:


And I'm done with this thread. I am not in an agumentative mood today and don't want to deal with trolls under the bridge.

[MasterKiller]

I've stated repetedly who I study under, with which organizations, ect...

I've stated twice in this thread alone that my sifu would teach me the CMA version of the grappling technique I'd done in class.

But you keep dodging my question.....WHO TAUGHT YOU THOSE TECHNIQUES ORIGINALLY?

[SevenStar]

Quite frankly I do not take on line challenges very seriously, but if I make it up to your neck of the woods sometime maybe something can be arranged.:D

How do you know what I do and do not know ?? This is a Kung Fu forum for Christ's sake.
Like you tell everything about a person by what is said in this forum!?!!??!

Well , what I can tell about you is this :that obviously your teacher /master was never introduced to ground fighting in his art ,not to say that it is not present, (This does not make him not good at what he taught you ), you had to make up for it by training with someone else, and you have issues with dealing with this ,( and probably many other things),whole thing because you just might find out that you are wrong.

You and the rest of these guys just can not answer the simple questions I asked, this tells me a lot who you guys really are!!

Gene, I know that you run an open forum BLAHBLAHBLAAAAAAAH

(color reflects the sound of a whiny b!tch voice).
grow aset of balls if you are going to act like a man.

If you do not like what I post do not read or comment on my posts. This goes for the rest of you as well.

I am an American, I have freedom of speech, and I am exercising my right to do so.

is the video done yet?

[SevenStar]

.....but does this mean unless you are on payperview and have a 6 figure contract and are recognized that you are not even in the same realm of being able to defend yourself when it counts with the same ferociousness and skill??

you keep going in circles. As was said before, No - that would be stupid. But on average, the person preparing for competition has the advantage over the guy who does not. That doesn't mean he can't defend himself against an average joe on the street. You are more stuck on the money and ego thing than we are, which goes back to what I said earlier - a non-competitor cannot comprehend a competitor's mindset.


Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

No, they likely are nowhere near the pro mma guys skill level. Of course, when you are just a couch competitor, it's always easier to make that call. I went to high school with quentin jackson. I think my striking is much better than his, though his grappling is better than mine. If I can keep the fight standing, I can probably knock him out. See how easy it was to say that? In actuality though, I probably couldn't keep the fight standing and would get slammed into unconsciousness.


They do it for the love of what they do and for survival.

competitors compete for the love of what they do.


Basically my question is this; Do you all think that just because these guys are fighting in MMA/ NHB/UFC that anyone of them are so above the other fighters in the world that no one can beat them or even compare to their skill??

Do you really think you know that many people who are better than them? People who train and fight for a living? Sure, there are people who can beat them, but be serious.


The sport is always taking it to a new level and champions fall. People that were once the best eventually lose . Some make it back to the top and reign supreme again.[/.quote]

And do you think some of these guys you are referring to who aren't training to fight for a living are among the ones who can make them fall? Why?

[quote]Remember when they said that no one could beat the Gracies that they were the best fighters in the world?? Yeah and we know how long that lasted.

I don't remember anyone ever saying that, actually. However, who was it that did beat them? That's right, other guys who trained to compete for a living


Instead of these people coming in to the ring on payperview lets see the MMA/ UFC /NHB guys come out to where defending yourself counts the most, where a fightis for your life or for your family or someone you love.


so you think sending them to fight untrained joes will somehow prove something? Hell, as a bouncer, I fight such guys every week, several times per week. Doesn't prove much, really.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Professional fighters are just that, Professional fighters.

No one thinks they can "beat" any other Pro at their game, why would fighting be any less relevant ??

A "recreational" Driver/basketball player/golfer/*insert chosen endevour here* would not be bale to be a Pro in the same events.

While a trained Amateur Boxer MAY be able to beat a Pro boxer ( a punchers chance if you will), the chances of the Pro beating the Amateur are far greater than vice-versa.

[Three Harmonies]

I want video from Tat and Becca. Period. Talk **** all you want, but back it up. Otherwise I think you know who the TROLL is.
You couldn't hold my teacher jock bro. You are ****ing ignorant if you think he was not taught something. Their is no ground work in CMA.
No one challenged you bro, why so sensitive? I said show me. If I challenged you, you would know it.

VIDEO. VIDEO. VIDEO.
Where be it? Dude, you could make tons if you had such info!!! Yet all I hear is hot air!

Jake :cool:

[unkokusai]

I am an American, I have freedom to spew LARP-erific nonsense, and I am exercising my right to do so.

So it would seem.

[SoCo KungFu]

And I don't have to personally know you to tell wether you are willing to consider someone else's point of veiw... which is the definition of "o"bjective. I've stated twice in this thread alone that my sifu would teach me the CMA version of the grappling technique I'd done in class. CMA being kung fu in the American understanding, not the literal translation CMA basher like to revert to when someone claims to know the "kung fu version.":rolleyes:

Again this is an example of what we are all trying to say. You're (and Tattoo) are saying that you are learning ground work as a comprehensive skill in your kung fu. We are saying that you are learning techniques but it is NOT a comprehensive aspect of the curriculum of the kung fu art and that yours is seemingly the only to practice it. Its just not true. And that is the disconnect.

Ground work is not an integral part of the kung fu art. Yes, everyone here admits that there are SOME ground techniques. But it is not a formalised, trained, trialed and re-evaluated skill. Look at your own art as an example. How many different standup methods have you trained? How many counters to those? There is a whole strategic methodology to the approach. Mantis has the 12 keys, hung gar has the 12 bridges, eagle claw has its 108 locking methods, etc. Where is that same flushed out program applied to the ground in kung fu? Its just not there. The old masters weren't dumb. If it was there is would be just as comprehensive as any other aspect of kung fu.

Like I said, there are some techs for the ground. Sweeps, scissors etc. But still we are talking a completely different standard. And as for your training. An arm bar is an armbar. There is nothing CMA or JMA exclussive. Yeah kung fu has arm bars. Kung fu has guillotine chokes. But just because you apply an arm bar and fall doesn't mean that kung fu has ground game. It just means you can hold onto an arm.

If it was there it would be an expounded aspect of the art. Not just some mish mesh of techniques.

And what about all the stories master so and so could do with his iron palm or his kicks or whatever. Where are the stories about Grand Master so and so submitting <insert evil villain guy>? There aren't any because there weren't any.

There is no folk lore, no tradition and no technical supportive evidence that ground work was a focused skill in kung fu.

Which leads me to say, that if you are learning ground work in kung fu...and I don't care what your teacher is calling it, its not a traditional skill. If its a modified kung fu technique, its just that...modified. Its retrofit. They took an old skill and gave it a new use. But its not something that has been around.

And the thing is...there is nothing wrong with that. Its actually...GREAT! It means that someone somewhere in your art decided that it had a problem and they wanted to fix it. I don't understand why kung fu guys have such a problem with evolution of the art. Hell I'll bet less that 1/3 of you are Chinese anyways so its not like you have a historical stake in the matter.

I love my kung fu. You know the funny thing. My kung fu got so much better by looking at other stuff. I found so much more Chi'Na in my KF/tai chi by practicing aikido. I learned how I could change leverage and altar a use of a KF technique by learning how they do it in Jujutsu. Kung fu flows with any other thing you do. You want to use a kung fu throw or chi'na? Jujutsu has a crap ton of awesome ground followups. And the thing is if you can pull a standing chi'na (which is usually small joint at that, but that's a whole different topic) then that same dexterity is going to come right into play for the JJ submission.

I just don't get it. Most of us here are in America. All of us here regardless of country are imbedded in the information age (you know, this being internet and all). We all have the opportunity to have just about any information we want in a matter of seconds. We have the opportunity to expand whatever MA we train unlike anyone could have in history. I have no idea why people choose to turn their head to that sort of opportunity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just don't get it. Most of us here are in America. All of us here regardless of country are imbedded in the information age (you know, this being internet and all). We all have the opportunity to have just about any information we want in a matter of seconds. We have the opportunity to expand whatever MA we train unlike anyone could have in history. I have no idea why people choose to turn their head to that sort of opportunity.

Could be a case of "ostrich head", but I think its a comfort zone thing, not everyone likes being taken out of their comfort zone, no matter how BAD a comfort zone is, even more so in something like the Martial arts.

[PangQuan]

My Sifu that taught me my Shaolin and Wushu also trained for years in judo.

Often times when he teaches throws etc. he will go into how to approach the person on the ground after the throw to continue attacking.

Though I never learned any submission type stuff, I learned some throws and follow up. Which I am pretty sure came from his Judo background as he holds a blackbelt.

Though he knows Judo, probably teaches it within his CMA, he never makes a distinction like "now this is a judo throw"

at this point in his career its all just kungfu....its hard to distinguish what is CMA and what might be JMA. Unless your in the know, but how much of his JMA has been altered by his CMA and vise versa? He is a truly talented martial artist i might add.

now the location of origination may not be chinese...he is Viet, trained in Cambodia in a temple, so even CMA is going to be foreign....so to him its just martial arts.

Once you reach a point where everything you learned is just a natural extention of what you do as a martial artist, does it really matter WHERE it came from?

would not still qualify as "GONG FU"?

IMO yes

May not be CMA but its still good gong fu if you can get to that point.

WHICH IMO IS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS!

[Three Harmonies]

It's funny when any of us simply request a video to show what the hell these goof balls are talking about, they seem to disappear!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

It's funny when any of us simply request a video to show what the hell these goof balls are talking about, they seem to disappear!?!?!?! :rolleyes:I guess you have problems reading and comprehending things as well. I said my computer is broken and I do not have access to my files at this time( virus).

I also know that it is not easy for everybody who has real lives to just go out and film and post videos.Not everyone here has that type of technological savvy or the equpment to do so.


Not failing to mention even with video you all will say it is borrowed, made up, and make fun of it .

So what it the point??

Do not get me wrong I will post my videos when the time comes that I am able to do so.

You all use bullying techniques to try and get people to do what you want them to do . Totally immature and stupid.

And as soon as someone can not immediately do as you have asked you say of they are this or they are that. Not everyone's lives revolve around you and this forum .

Get a clue.

[lkfmdc]

I said my computer is broken and I do not have access to my files at this time( virus).



You can post on the internet but your computer is broke? Uh, ok :rolleyes:






Do not get me wrong I will post my videos when the time comes that I am able to do so.




really, really, really he will, he will post, when he can, he'll post, really he will :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

You @$$holes make a lot of assumptions about people based on your previous experience with others on the net, and you think that you know these people so well based on what they post here .

Totally ridiculous.

Not everyone can articulate what it is that they are trying to convey. Most of you have the same problems too.

As I see it most of the problem here is miscommunication and lack of understanding where others are coming from.

I notice it more so with the people that have been here for a long time and have a clique .

They assume that everyone should know exactly what they mean, that everyone should fall on their everyword and not challenge, or ask them as to what they truly mean.

Then to add insult to injury you make fun of them and bully them.

Not very becoming of you guys that claim to be teachers.

Is this what you teach your students!?!?!?

You know who I am talking about

[tattooedmonk]

You can post on the internet but your computer is broke? Uh, ok :rolleyes:






really, really, really he will, he will post, when he can, he'll post, really he will :rolleyes:I use the library computers. and other peoples when I get the chance.

[RonH]

Okay, since we have established that TM is having a little trouble with his 'puter with his stuff, and that KF and he have already broched to a certain extent the topic of sparring together, can we please get back to the discussion of groundfighting in CMA without the snipes?

By the way is 'groundfighting' one or two words?

[unkokusai]

You @$$holes make a lot of assumtions about people based on your previous experience with others on the net, and you think that you know these people so well based on what they post here .

Totally rediculous.

Not everyone can articulate what it it is that they are trying to convey. Most of you have the same problems too.

As I see it most of the problem here is mis-communicationand lack of understanding where others are coming from.

I notice it more so with the people that have been here for a long time and have a click .

They assume that everyone should know exactly what they mean, that everyone should fall on their everyword and not challenge, or ask them as to what they truely mean.

Then to add insult to injury you make fun of them and bully them.

Not very becoming of you guys that claim to be teachers.

Is this what you teach your students!?!?!?

You know who I am talking about


You know, if you cry directly over the keyboard it may cause problems with your typing.

[PangQuan]

Okay, since we have established that TM is having a little trouble with his 'puter with his stuff, and that KF and he have already broched to a certain extent the topic of sparring together, can we please get back to the discussion of groundfighting in CMA without the snipes?

By the way is 'groundfighting' one or two words?

maybe hyphonated? (sp) Ground-Fighting?

Dunno.

Though riddle me this.

If you learn ground-fighting:cool: from one or several different arts, yet continue to practice your CMA and integrate your new knowledge into what you do with your CMA, then teach this not as a seperate entitiy but as a whole. With the emphasis on CMA yet with CMA tweaked ground material from other sources.

Without the distinction between them at what point does the material meld into one style?

[unkokusai]

By the way is 'groundfighting' one or two words?

It's two words, like "ground beef."

[unkokusai]

Without the distinction between them at what point does the material meld into one style?

When you've been dead long enough for people to make up fantastic stories about you that can't be verified.

[Three Harmonies]

Monk
Excuses are like................well, you know where I am going, and we all know yours stink as much as the next guys!
Dude, I never said I would make fun of anything. As a matter of fact I do believe in my first post on this silly thread that I would be the FIRST to apologize and give credit where it is due if you post a clip and show me where all this stuff comes from you claim to know (doesn't it seem odd you are one of the ONLY people that are saying this??)! So don't be putting words into my mouth. If you are afraid of someone making fun of your vid, then that tells me your info is already tainted with the smell of BS. I watch a clip of Marcelo Garcia doing submission grappling and their is nothing to make fun of because he is on top of his game! I would pay you the same respect if you posted something. Now if it was full of silliness and bull****.......................................... ...



No one is making any assumptions about you, you have filled in the gaps of our lack of understanding just fine with the irrational comments you post, and silly ideas you perpetuate without backing any of it up.
Quite simple, post video. Whenever your 'puter gets over its case of internet herpes or whatever.

Jake

[RonH]

If you learn ground-fighting:cool: from one or several different arts, yet continue to practice your CMA and integrate your new knowledge into what you do with your CMA, then teach this not as a seperate entitiy but as a whole. With the emphasis on CMA yet with CMA tweaked ground material from other sources.

Without the distinction between them at what point does the material meld into one style?

If you intention is to teach a hybrid style, before you begin to teach it, you have decided what you want to teach and that is when. If your intention is to teach CMA, you are not teaching a single style unless you have decided how to teach the nonCMA material with whatever CMA principles you want to teach to make one style.

[Chosen-frozen]

sure, but ime, when cma guys say ground fighting they usually mean striking from the ground in an effort to get back to their feet.

I think that`s because most TCMA have tried to remain reality based in regards to self-defense rather than orienting themselves towards competition. Sport competition is a relatively new concept. People have always loved to watch a fight martial artists have always fought competatively....but not nessasarily in organized sport events.

People train differently for sports than for fighting because they`re two completely different animals.

For example a sport fighter doesn`t have to worry about his opponent`s friends or other bystanders kicking his head in while he`s snuggling on the ground looking for a submission. He doesn`t have to wonder if the guy he`s fighting is going to try to draw a weapon while they`re rolling around.His opponent is just out to win, not to seriously injure him.(The exact opposite is true in a real fight. "Injury" is often the minimum an opponent has on his mind.) And he has the luxury of knowing the refferee will stop the fight as soon as he taps.

When I began training 30+ years ago in my uncle`s garage with all his friends from Shanghai they drilled 2 things into me: 1) Don`t goto the ground if you can help it because there are too many things that can get ugly real fast. A knockout is the best "Submission" you could ask for. 2) Keep it simple. Don`t rely on "Goldy Locks Kung Fu", stuff that only works if everything is `just right.`

[unkokusai]

For example a sport fighter doesn`t have to worry about his opponent`s friends or other bystanders kicking his head in while he`s snuggling on the ground looking for a submission. He doesn`t have to wonder if the guy he`s fighting is going to try to draw a weapon while they`re rolling around.



Oh, fer cryin' out loud....:rolleyes:

The same old bull**** over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...

[tattooedmonk]

You know, if you cry directly over the keyboard it may cause problems with your typing. Still can not focus on the issues at hand huh!?!?! The only one that seems to be crying here is you.

I went back and corrected them .Now what you got to say B!ATCH??

[tattooedmonk]

Monk
Excuses are like................well, you know where I am going, and we all know yours stink as much as the next guys!
Dude, I never said I would make fun of anything. As a matter of fact I do believe in my first post on this silly thread that I would be the FIRST to apologize and give credit where it is due if you post a clip and show me where all this stuff comes from you claim to know (doesn't it seem odd you are one of the ONLY people that are saying this??)! So don't be putting words into my mouth. If you are afraid of someone making fun of your vid, then that tells me your info is already tainted with the smell of BS. I watch a clip of Marcelo Garcia doing submission grappling and their is nothing to make fun of because he is on top of his game! I would pay you the same respect if you posted something. Now if it was full of silliness and bull****.......................................... ...



No one is making any assumptions about you, you have filled in the gaps of our lack of understanding just fine with the irrational comments you post, and silly ideas you perpetuate without backing any of it up.
Quite simple, post video. Whenever your 'puter gets over its case of internet herpes or whatever.

JakeI can back it all up , just not with video right now.

I would be more than happy to elaborate on any aspect of CMA groundfighting if asked.

Like I said most of this BS is because of lack of understanding and miscommunication.
And I am not the only one that is saying that CMA has a well established ground game .

It is just not taught in most schools.

I am really having trouble understanding how it is that you all continue to take things out of context , assume everything, think you all know everything there is to know about CMA, and can not admit that someone might more know more than you do about CMA .

You all talk about avoiding or ducking questions but you all are doing the same thing.

Now if you would like to answer some questions that keep being asked without all the BS, and smart @$$ answers that would be greatly appreciated

[unkokusai]

Still can not focus on the issues at hand huh!?!?! The only one that seems to be crying here is you.

I went back and corrected them .Now what you got to say B!ATCH??




I "got to say" that you are an illiterate, brainwashed, LARPing drone, and with every post you convince more and more people of that fact.

[unkokusai]

I can back it all up , just not with video right now.



Well, isn't that convenient? Why don't you STFU until you can?

[tattooedmonk]

Well, isn't that convenient? Why don't you STFU until you can? Keep crying . What you can not have a discussion without the videos ? You can not talk about the ideas, concepts, theories, principles, philosophy,etc. ??

You know that without these things you can not have the actual applications of said techniques. Do you not know anything about the sciences, you know like physics, mechanics, anatomy, physiology, etc??

Probably not , that is why you have to keep up with this immature behavior.

[unkokusai]

Keep crying . What you can not have a discussion without the videos ? You can not talk about the ideas, concepts, theories, principles, philosophy,etc. ??.

You know, there is a point buzzing right around you, but you just can't seem to see it.

[SifuAbel]

Don't feed the trolls.

[tattooedmonk]

Don't feed the trolls. HUH??? Is this directed at me or him ??. I do not know what a troll is.

[RonH]

Causes trouble just to cause trouble.

[tattooedmonk]

Causes trouble just to cause trouble.Thanks.....

[bodhitree]

HUH??? Is this directed at me or him ??. I do not know what a troll is.


You, my friend, are a troll

[tattooedmonk]

You, my friend, are a trollI am here to have discussions. All you have done here ,as I can see it, is looking for trouble with me.
So who is the troll??

And tattoo is with 2 'T's

[bodhitree]

you're not only a troll (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=772283&postcount=299)

[street_fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPr6nS-qJh0 . He claims that it is based on his Bagua principles... just spotted it and remembered seeing this thread. Didn't read through the thread, don't plan to. just htought i'd put this up.

[msg]

we did a good amount of ground fighting in kuntao.silat iam trying to find my old tapes that i had .it shows some good ground tatics .in one of the tapes it has me and the gracies youngs of the brothers in it .i will post it as soon as i find it .it wiil prove that cma as ground fighting

[tattooedmonk]

I liked this very much for what it is and not what it is not. He has a good amount of knowledge about the art of change ( Bagua) and the yi jing. He is not limited by the ideas of what they are said to be.

Although not complete, it does give some of the flavor of what I was refering to. I noticed a few mistakes but over all not bad. Bet he can school most on this forum they are NON CMA or CMA.

I can not wait to hear from all the non CMA guys. All of their posts will be predicatable . As well as from the CMA guys who had to take BJJ to supplement their art.

A lot of them( CMA guys) are just being taught concepts , principles, techniques,etc. that they already know , they are just learning how to put them all together and see them and apply from a different perspective.







Let the SH!T flinging begin!!!

[MasterKiller]

Looks like guys learning to ground fight against other guys who don't know how to ground fight.

It's better than nothing, but BT makes a lot of rookie mistakes, like locking his ankles in the rear naked choke.

I don't see why you just don't bring someone in that actually knows how to shoot instead of trying to mimic what you think a shoot might be, but BT keeps it realer than most.

[Notintheface]

I am not. we would train over eight hours a day in conditioning , philosophy, theory , concepts, principles, forms , etc I had really special masters who had experience in other CMAs prior to SD.It was their life and not just a job or hobby

****, either you are a professional fighter or a super secret squirrel Army brat with one to many kung fu movies.... Did you meet these super secret CMAS people at the bottom or at the top of Hunan mountain? :rolleyes:

[Notintheface]

They may have been taught the pieces of the puzzle but they just have no clue as to how to put it ALL together.

It is the artist that makes the art complete. which I have.

This coming from the Sd person. Ten to one bet, he is stuck in another chop sockey belt farm :)

[Notintheface]

Tattoo

Many guys that I have trained with have the same level of skill had by guys in MMA contest they just do not need money and fame to motivate them nor do they need everyone to acknowledge what they do is effective to boost their egos.

Omg Omg I just can't anymore... He has given me troll overload

[monji112000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPr6nS-qJh0 . He claims that it is based on his Bagua principles... just spotted it and remembered seeing this thread. Didn't read through the thread, don't plan to. just htought i'd put this up.

LOL BT :D

Why not visit a wrestling school if you want to get even a "basic" idea. WTF whats wrong with just admitting were you have a flaw and train around it? CMA is lacking a wrestling... fact. Doesn't take away from CMA its just the way it is. I don't really think you need to be a Gracie to a good fighter and be able to protect yourself in a fight.

[street_fighter]

yeah, not the best (by any means), and I'm not even going to comment on it being derived from bagua, but like MK said, it IS better than nothing. Some of BTs stuff is actually pretty good, at least when compared to other traditional cats.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPr6nS-qJh0 . He claims that it is based on his Bagua principles... just spotted it and remembered seeing this thread. Didn't read through the thread, don't plan to. just htought i'd put this up.

Someone like Tim Cartmell is a good example of what a CMA person with integrity does if he wants to learn the ground game and teach it to his students... he straps on a white belt and invests about 10 years moving up through the ranks and becoming an expert in BJJ. After this, his whole CMA game becomes stronger.

That clip above is a good example what happens when a CMA instructor with too much ego and not much integrity does when he wants to capitalize on the interest in ground fighting. With this approach, one of the strongest points of his CMA (the striking) disapears as he tells his students not to strike, but instead to use lame-a$$3d made up on the fly "grappling" that wouldn't work against anyone who was halfway athletic.

The disclaimer at the beginning of the clip should read:



DISCLAIMER
This program contains techniques that will cause injury
to yourself if you try them against someone who
actually knows what they are doing on the ground.

IMPORTANT
The viewer will need to see a physician
if he tries these techniques on someone who has
half a clue on the ground.

NOTICE
Training in real grappling will help you not to gas out
in under 30 seconds as was shown on this clip.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was at a party this weekend.

some of the top grappler's from new england were there. one of the guys from the ultimate fighter season 5 was there. i rolled with one of the BJJ guys.

1st time he won 2-1. we started on our knee's. he had an advantage.

2nd time i won 2-1. we were going from standing. i was able to use my stances and was able to put him down where i wanted and did decent.

my new take on bjj.

its not useless. definitely good. he was teaching me some of the locks. a couple of them i learned standing up. it was just getting into them. all in all i learned a lot. the guy i was rolling with learned a lot too.

[Notintheface]

This thread is so gonna get me banned......

[Knifefighter]

1st time he won 2-1. we started on our knee's. he had an advantage.

2nd time i won 2-1. we were going from standing. i was able to use my stances and was able to put him down where i wanted and did decent.

Really? 2-1? How did you score that?:)

[tattooedmonk]

Looks like guys learning to ground fight against other guys who don't know how to ground fight.

It's better than nothing, but BT makes a lot of rookie mistakes, like locking his ankles in the rear naked choke.

I don't see why you just don't bring someone in that actually knows how to shoot instead of trying to mimic what you think a shoot might be, but BT keeps it realer than most.Just how is locking the ankles in a rear naked choke a rookie mistake?? I see lots of BJJ/GJJ/ MMA guys do this all the time.( not to say it is or is not)

As for whether he is just learning ground fighting, I will agree.

Like I have said before there are no different styles of fighting, just different styles of teaching.

What it is that all of you are getting from BJJ/ GJJ is a different style of teaching. they are specialist in this specific area of fighting. Like I also said these guys are just showing you a different way of seeing that which you already know.

This is not to say that a CMA fighter can not be a specialist in this area.

I am doing what I can to change this:D......using CMA .

I have worked out with these guys as well and have seen nothing that was not known to me on some level or another.

I believe a great deal of the awe comes from the way it is taught in comparison to TMA.



as for other posts refering to me and SD/CSC, I have this to say........

One of the reasons I am no longer with SD/ CSC is because of the way most of the instructors/ masters teach, not because of the material being taught.

I was taught by Sifus / SiGungs who loved the art, who spent almost all their time, in some way, working the material that was taught to them.

They never thought just inside the box until certain people came along and told them that they were not teaching the material the way it was taught to them...... ala mc dojo style.

And I have to say it was not Master SinThe'.

Actually he encouraged a great deal of what we were doing ,but you know how it is when it becomes a business , even though it is your business, the stock holders and the major rule.:rolleyes:

I have taken what I have learned and moved on. I have learned many things since then, not so much new material, but how to see the material that I already have from all different angles and not to be limited by the way it was taught .

I contribute a great amount of my advancement in the arts to the philosophies that are the foundation of the CMA.

Yeah many of you can say what you will about it but when you apply the philosophical aspects to physics, anatomy & physiology, human movement science, bio mechanics, etc . you see that the possiblities are endless.

Back to the subject at hand.

I noticed that none of you wanted to talk about the original post and all you wanted to do is be @$$holes about it. None of you wanted to have a conversation about this all you wanted was video. As soon as a video was not possible at that moment all hell broke loose .

I just curious as to why it is that you all so simply wrote it off.

Was it because I studied SD?? Because you were afraid that I , and others, might know something that you do not?? And your egos were are crushed by it?? Are you all so full of UFC/ MMA/ GJJ/ BJJ ,that REAL CMA does not matter to you any more???


WHATEVER

[tattooedmonk]

Someone like Tim Cartmell is a good example of what a CMA person with integrity does if he wants to learn the ground game and teach it to his students... he straps on a white belt and invests about 10 years moving up through the ranks and becoming an expert in BJJ. After this, his whole CMA game becomes stronger.

That clip above is a good example what happens when a CMA instructor with too much ego and not much integrity does when he wants to capitalize on the interest in ground fighting. With this approach, one of the strongest points of his CMA (the striking) disapears as he tells his students not to strike, but instead to use lame-a$$3d made up on the fly "grappling" that wouldn't work against anyone who was halfway athletic.

The disclaimer at the beginning of the clip should read:



DISCLAIMER
This program contains techniques that will cause injury
to yourself if you try them against someone who
actually knows what they are doing on the ground.

IMPORTANT
The viewer will need to see a physician
if he tries these techniques on someone who has
half a clue on the ground.

NOTICE
Training in real grappling will help you not to gas out
in under 30 seconds as was shown on this clip.Talk about ego.

Do you get commision or something everytime you say TC's name or BJJ??

Yeah what he was doing is a little rough a round the edges, but it does not mean that it will not work when he gets it down or that most people with or without groundfighting abilities will not have some trouble.

It was not presented very well and was not explained in the video exactly what he was trying to convey. It was something that started out with the right intention but got out of control. and yes there was ALOT of EGO involved.

And yes he needs to work on his breathing techniques, but that probably had more to do wiith him being over weight than anything.:D


It is great that you had ten years of your life to spend getting a black belt in BJJ/ GJJ or whatever.

But your mind has been brain washed into believeing they know the only way to ground fight.


That would mean that BJJ/ GJJ is an absolute and that no other martial art was complete until it came along.

Hell, if we had BJJ/ GJJ, oh lets say a few hundred years ago, we never would have needed to make weapons of mass destruction , guns , grenades etc.:rolleyes:

Now instead of being an @$$hole why not point out the things that he might have done right ,add some positive feed back or something, instead of your ego and your unneeded sarcasm???

I wonder if you would approach him in the same manner if you met him personally or would you go about it in a different way??

Are you an instructor somewhere??

[MasterKiller]

Just how is locking the ankles in a rear naked choke a rookie mistake?? I see lots of BJJ/GJJ/ MMA guys do this all the time.( not to say it is or is not)

When you lock your ankles, the guy you are choking can break them.

Plus, you have much, much better control of the guy if you dig your hooks (ankles) into his thighs.

Maybe KnifeFighter knows something I don't, but IME you won't see BJJ/GJJ/MMA guys locking ankles in a RNC because they are shown this the first week of training.


1st time he won 2-1. we started on our knee's. he had an advantage.

2nd time i won 2-1. we were going from standing. i was able to use my stances and was able to put him down where i wanted and did decent.

What the hell is 2-1?

[Notintheface]

Yeah many of you can say what you will about it but when you apply the philosophical aspects to physics, anatomy & physiology, human movement science, bio mechanics, etc . you see that the possiblities are endless.

Did you paint dots on your forehead yet?

Novell has a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGE ego and swears he is da SHONUfff of Harllem :) but at least he fights, well sometimes.........

[Knifefighter]

Just how is locking the ankles in a rear naked choke a rookie mistake??

Locking the ankles sets up the guy on the back to be foot locked.


What it is that all of you are getting from BJJ/ GJJ is a different style of teaching. they are specialist in this specific area of fighting. Like I also said these guys are just showing you a different way of seeing that which you already know.

If they were just showing you stuff you already knew, you would have known why it is not a good thing to cross the ankles.

You would also have seen where he was setting himself up to be arm-barred.


I have worked out with these guys as well and have seen nothing that was not known to me on some level or another.

Again, if that was the case, you would have known about the ankles.



Yeah many of you can say what you will about it but when you apply the philosophical aspects to physics, anatomy & physiology, human movement science, bio mechanics, etc . you see that the possiblities are endless.

If you don't know what you are doing, the possibilities to get it wrong are also endless.



I noticed that none of you wanted to talk about the original post and all you wanted to do is be @$$holes about it. None of you wanted to have a conversation about this all you wanted was video. As soon as a video was not possible at that moment all hell broke loose .

I suggested that we get together and roll so I could see your approach.

[Knifefighter]

But your mind has been brain washed into believeing they know the only way to ground fight.
That would mean that BJJ/ GJJ is an absolute and that no other martial art was complete until it came along.

Judo, Sambo, and wrestling all have good ground games too.

[MasterKiller]

Plus, I would love for people to extend their arms like that when I'm in the mount. Might as well wrap a ribbon around that elbow.

[Knifefighter]

Now instead of being an @$$hole why not point out the things that he might have done right ,add some positive feed back or something, instead of your ego and your unneeded sarcasm???
The standup wasn't bad:
- The sweep was good.
- Some of the pummeling in the beginning was workable.

Once it got into ground range, things were pretty bad though:
- Crossing the ankles = leg lock
- Extending the arms up and across when mounted = arm lock
- Trying to smother someone simply by dropping your weight on their face the way shown on that clip = only works if you are a giant fat guy, gives the bottom person a chance to guard you up, and opens you up to be bitten.
- Countering the takedown by pulling the face back- only works against someone who has absolutely no takedown training.

[LeeCasebolt]

The standup wasn't bad:


You really think so? I thought it looked almost comically inept. Granting they're beginners, and to their credit they seem to have a general idea of what to do standing up, they're not yet any good at actually doing it.

[Knifefighter]

You really think so?

Just some of the pummeling at the beginning and the leg sweep in the middle.

[tattooedmonk]

I have seen many ground fighters in the UFC and JJ schools do this . Black belts all the time do this. Like I said if it is a rookie mistake how come it is that these guys are doing it? It is an odds thing as I see it, if the guy on your back has a tighter hold of your neck then you have to focus on that . If he does not then of course you could do ankle lock. I was well aware of the ankle option. No where in my post did I state that I was not . This is the question I asked.

[MasterKiller]

I have seen many ground fighters in the UFC and JJ schools do this . Black belts all the time do this. Like I said if it is a rookie mistake how come it is that these guys are doing it?
I never see anyone with less than a few weeks training doing it.

[Knifefighter]

Black belts all the time do this.

Point to one example of a BJJ blackbelt doing this.


If he does not then of course you could do ankle lock. I was well aware of the ankle option.

Really? How do you do it?

[Shaolinlueb]

2-1 means won 2 he won 1. like best out of 3.

how did i manage to win? i got skillz knife fighter :P.
it was a good learning experience. i was learning what i could do and what i couldn't.

[lkfmdc]

I have seen many ground fighters in the UFC and JJ schools do this . Black belts all the time do this.



Really? NAME THEM? What UFC fighter does this? What BJJ Black belt? It is one of the most basic mistakes you can make, and trust me, once someone locks your ankles this way, you never want to make that mistake again

[Knifefighter]

2-1 means won 2 he won 1. like best out of 3.

how did i manage to win? i got skillz knife fighter :P.
it was a good learning experience. i was learning what i could do and what i couldn't.

2-1 as in tap outs?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Really? NAME THEM? What UFC fighter does this? What BJJ Black belt? It is one of the most basic mistakes you can make, and trust me, once someone locks your ankles this way, you never want to make that mistake again

While I have seen a few cross the feet during arm bars, never recall seeing any do them during a RNC.
Maybe he is confused with armbars...

[Knifefighter]

While I have seen a few cross the feet during arm bars, never recall seeing any do them during a RNC.
Maybe he is confused with armbars...

He is more than likely confused between the figure 4 from the back and crossing the ankles... so much for him knowing what is what from his CMA training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He is more than likely confused between the figure 4 from the back and crossing the ankles... so much for him knowing what is what from his CMA training.

Yeah, might be it, though its hard to see how a foot in the knee bend can be mistaken as crossing ankles...maybe its a case of too much youtube. :D

[Mr Punch]

I was well aware of the ankle option. No where in my post did I state that I was not . This is the question I asked.OMG that was ****ing hilarious! :D :D :D

Nowhere in your post did you state that you were NOT aware of the ankle lock option...? :confused: Duh!

Let me just tell you, I'm not aware of... wait a minute... that's right! I don't know WTF I'm not aware of! LOL

The question you asked was: why is it a bad thing to cross your ankles on an RNC? Because you didn't know the answer, maybe?

****, I'm sick of your BS.

But please, carry on, just for giggles.

[tattooedmonk]

OMG that was ****ing hilarious! :D :D :D

Nowhere in your post did you state that you were NOT aware of the ankle lock option...? :confused: Duh!

Let me just tell you, I'm not aware of... wait a minute... that's right! I don't know WTF I'm not aware of! LOL

The question you asked was: why is it a bad thing to cross your ankles on an RNC? Because you didn't know the answer, maybe?

****, I'm sick of your BS.

But please, carry on, just for giggles.

Why did I have to state whether I was aware of the ankle option or not ?? Do not take what I said out of context . The question I asked was how is it a rookie manuever if I have seen BJJ / GJJ BB do it ?? And went on to further say, not that it is or is not .

Just because I asked a question does not mean that I do not know the answer or do not have an idea of what the answer is. Do make assumptions.

And something was said in another post about me knowing the difference between a rear naked choke and a figure 4 , the answer is yes.

I believe that the problem with this discussion is the terminology and mis understanding of what each other is trying to say and convey.

If all you @$$holes would get off your high horses and come back down to earth maybe this could be resolved in a more mature manner.

[lkfmdc]

I have seen BJJ / GJJ BB do it



WHO HAVE YOU SEEN?
NAMES?
WHO HAVE YOU SEEN THAT IS A BLACK BELT DOING SUCH A MISTAKE?
ASKED BEFORE, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED

[tattooedmonk]

WHO HAVE YOU SEEN?
NAMES?
WHO HAVE YOU SEEN THAT IS A BLACK BELT DOING SUCH A MISTAKE?
ASKED BEFORE, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWEREDCool your jets turbo. I am looking through the most recent fights I have watched. Quit crying. Be patient , B!tch.

[Shaolinlueb]

2-1 as in tap outs?


yes. a kung fu guy made a grappler tap out!! using those techniques i learned standing up just putting onto ground. could only use like 2 or 3 so far. but it was fun.

[Notintheface]

You guys are doing my job for me :mad:
Sure you did jerky!:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

some of the top grappler's from new england were there. one of the guys from the ultimate fighter season 5 was there. i rolled with one of the BJJ guys.


yes. a kung fu guy made a grappler tap out!! using those techniques i learned standing up just putting onto ground. could only use like 2 or 3 so far. but it was fun.

You went 2-1 in tap outs against one of the top BJJ practioners in New England?

Sorry, that seems a little far fetched.

Of course, if it is true, you should be able to enter the advanced division of the next sub grappling tourney and easily place. Of course, we know that won't happen.

[lkfmdc]

Cool your jets turbo. I am looking through the most recent fights I have watched. Quit crying. Be patient , B!tch.

hah hah, tough talk from behind a keyboard huh? :rolleyes: My guess, you are crying, sand in your swim trunks? Upset that you got called on nonsense? Keep looking for stuff that doesn't exist because no BJJ black belt would cross his ankles like that. No one but a white belt would make that mistake, it's darn basic

Just for amusement, since you state you understand the ankle lock, explain it for us all........

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't know if anyone posted this yet:

Chin Na Fa
Traditional Chinese submission Grappling

By Liu jinsheng and Zhao Jiang
Translated and Prefaced by: Tim Cartmell

Here is a book that shows Chin Na techniques and principles from the 1930's.

In this book you will find:

Pinching with the arm from the front - Guillotine Choke
Pinching the arm from the rear - RNC
Crossing the Neck - side choke on the ground
Supporting the elbow and breaking the wrist - ground grappling ( holding one arm with legs and "keylocking" the other)
Blocking the elbow - Armbar
Mounting the horse - ground work armbar
Pinching the elbow - ground work armlock with legs of side control
Breaking the foot - ankle lock


It seems that TCMA does indeed have ground work.
Though not specialized like BJJ.

[Mr Punch]

Why did I have to state whether I was aware of the ankle option or not ?? Do not take what I said out of context . The question I asked was how is it a rookie manuever if I have seen BJJ / GJJ BB do it ?? And went on to further say, not that it is or is not . You haven't seen them do it. You are mistaken. It's understandable, because you don't know your arse from your elbow in a grappling situation, so it's time to eat humble pie, admit it and everyone might just stop laughing at you.

You stated that you hadn't stated that you were not aware of a particular aspect of grappling. This will boggle my mind if I think about it too hard, but let me try and sum up the illogicality of your statement: you cannot state you are not aware of something specific, because if you are not aware of it, you can't talk about it. There doesn't need to be any context to know that this is old bollocks. It's like the old argument about the giraffe and the waffle iron. I rest my case!

Incidentally, the elbow is the one you put an armbar on, the arse is the one you sit on and subsequently talk out of when you make up BJJ scenarios in front of your computer.


If all you @$$holes would get off your high horses and come back down to earth maybe this could be resolved in a more mature manner.You are the one making stuff up and getting all blousy about it when you're called on. You are on the high horse, except, it's an ass, and we're all laughing at you. But hey, that's entertainment!

[Mr Punch]

You went 2-1 in tap outs against one of the top BJJ practioners in New England?You know how people slap something when they're laughing hysterically?

It was probably an after-effect of the, "What?! Chinese ground work?!" gag: he rolled around, slapping the floor, Shaolinlueb thought it was on! :D

Easy mistake to make.

[TenTigers]

what's the girraffe and waffle iron story?

[Mr Punch]

what's the girraffe and waffle iron story?Ex-****ing-actly! :D

[meltdawn]

i was at a party this weekend.

some of the top grappler's from new england were there. one of the guys from the ultimate fighter season 5 was there. i rolled with one of the BJJ guys.

1st time he won 2-1. we started on our knee's. he had an advantage.

2nd time i won 2-1. we were going from standing. i was able to use my stances and was able to put him down where i wanted and did decent.

my new take on bjj.

its not useless. definitely good. he was teaching me some of the locks. a couple of them i learned standing up. it was just getting into them. all in all i learned a lot. the guy i was rolling with learned a lot too.

cool, props for getting down and trying it. so, who were these guys? i'm in HK now and studying bjj from Thomas Fan who is from the UK under Ze Marcello. Thomas is a Hakka dude who grew up doing nam tong long with his bros, then went through some other cmas, and finally fell in love with bjj. tell me the guys you rolled with, from what camp, and i'm sure we will know them. in other words, let me ask if these really were the "top" grapplers. :) just like kung fu, bjj is not a huge community. Ze has clubs throughout the UK. in fact, i just completed a week long seminar with him. he left for the UK an hour ago.

my sifu and i would sit and watch all the full-contact fighting stuff for hours. we'd analyze everything. i was pretty comfortable with the fact that my kung fu would work on the ground. but since laying on the floor or physically being on top of your opponent isn't anything i've ever encountered in Lung Ying kuen, i decided to take up bjj and see if what i surmised was in fact the truth.

i am getting ****ing spanked. and i love it. every class is an opportunity to learn more technique, compare it to what i know, and actually try it out in a safe and friendly and supportive atmosphere. there are so many things that really do apply from a good stand up game, which is my Lung Ying kuen principals. but the horizontal game is much different than the vertical game, and the jiujitsu is really givng me another dimension (pun intended) and it is enriching my stand up too.

the thing is, there is sport, and there is self-protection or war. sport, or reality. in sport, the more areas you know to enable yourself to succeed, the better. conditioned athletes need an aresenal when meeting like-minded conditioned athletes. in reality, it's the luck of the draw. the strong beats the weak, the smart beast the dumb, and the quick beats the slow.

i love the sport of martial arts. and because i am in reality a small person and female, i want to be prepared for reality. so i'm willing to expand my understanding into bjj because i felt it was the one area my Lung Ying kuen does not address significantly. i am thoroughly enjoying it, and at the same time, i will never abandon my incredibly useful Lung Ying kuen.

because you can lie to everyone but yourself. :)

[PangQuan]

because you can lie to everyone but yourself. :)

Now we just need people to actually absorb and understand this :cool:

[lkfmdc]

There is also "national methods of self defense" and a few other books like this, but for the most part, the issue is that

1) this sort of stuff is widely ignored by mainstream CMA (police and military kept most of this stuff, some is still in Shuai Jiao)

2) it isn't really practiced in a way that you learn how to use it. Locking a person who stands there and lets you set up the lock is not going to teach you how to do it on a resisting opponent


Don't know if anyone posted this yet:

Chin Na Fa
Traditional Chinese submission Grappling

By Liu jinsheng and Zhao Jiang
Translated and Prefaced by: Tim Cartmell

Here is a book that shows Chin Na techniques and principles from the 1930's.

In this book you will find:

Pinching with the arm from the front - Guillotine Choke
Pinching the arm from the rear - RNC
Crossing the Neck - side choke on the ground
Supporting the elbow and breaking the wrist - ground grappling ( holding one arm with legs and "keylocking" the other)
Blocking the elbow - Armbar
Mounting the horse - ground work armbar
Pinching the elbow - ground work armlock with legs of side control
Breaking the foot - ankle lock


It seems that TCMA does indeed have ground work.
Though not specialized like BJJ.

[PangQuan]

so then what you're saying is the material is actually around if you look for it, all that needs be done is the development of a systematic training program to actually teach the material in a fashion that it can redily be learned and used.

what about fashioning a training program to spread this material based on a standard BJJ model for training?

the bjj people seem to have a pretty good method for themselves to spread thier art in a realisitc and alive manner.

[TenTigers]

because you can lie to everyone but yourself. :)
really? So I guess you've never seen bad comb-overs, toupee's,fat guys in speedos, fat broads in spandex....:p

in all seriousness, if you guys would get off the my style vs your style and realize that it's not style, but attributes that matter. Whether or not your system had grappling does not really matter (to me at least) but the fact that you have it now. I have always known a roundhouse kick. I trained in TKD, Tang Soo Do, Northern Shaolin, Kenpo, etc. My student, who is Thai spends his summers training in Muay Boran,Muay Chaya,and Krabi-Krabong in Thailand with his folks, and you can bet we are training these techniques in our :eek:Hung-Ga school.
Why? Because as the song sez,"Nobody does it better." As posted above,SOME schools of shuai-jiao have the same grappling techniques as BJJ, and in many cases much more brutal, as they are not training for sport. But if I see a good technique in BJJ, or Greco-Roman, or ne-waza from Kodokan Judo, I will assimilate it into my training.
Gung-Fu is (supposed to be) constantly evolving. In the past, fighters learned from anywhere they could, hence the development of sophisticated fighting arts, which were a product of evolution. When we continue to evolve, our Gung-Fu will have these thechniques. If we stay as frogs in our little well, we stagnate as martial artists, and do a diservice, not only to ourselves and our students, but to TCMA as a whole.

[TenTigers]

someone mentioned that the guy demonstrating in one of the books on chinese fsdt wrestling is a judo guy in a gi. Out of curiousity, is the guy actually a judo guy, or is he simply wearing a judo gi?

[lkfmdc]

so then what you're saying is the material is actually around if you look for it, all that needs be done is the development of a systematic training program to actually teach the material in a fashion that it can redily be learned and used.

what about fashioning a training program to spread this material


cough - SAN DA (http://www.sanda-mma.com) - cough

[PangQuan]

cough - SAN DA (http://www.sanda-mma.com) - cough

ROFL

*these are not the words you are looking for*

[Knifefighter]

in other words, let me ask if these really were the "top" grapplers. :)
Of course they weren't.


because you can lie to everyone but yourself. :)

You can lie to yourself and to your students and both will more than likely believe.

[alchemist]

Replying to a few things on this thread... The techniques on the Ba Gua grappling clip are being performed by a teacher who appears to outweigh his students, and the students don't appear to know anything about grappling. And yeah... Crossing ankles is a mistake you really only make once cuz it hurts a lot to have your ankle locked. And I think BJJ really helps highlight the principles CMA's ought to represent... Even subtleties like expansion/contraction are well represented in BJJ. Rolling is the new jogging!!! Well... It ought to be.

[Shaolinlueb]

You went 2-1 in tap outs against one of the top BJJ practioners in New England?

Sorry, that seems a little far fetched.

Of course, if it is true, you should be able to enter the advanced division of the next sub grappling tourney and easily place. Of course, we know that won't happen.

i never said i grappled a top guy ;) i just said they were there. come on, I am not stupid. Joe Lauzon was there, i aint going to take him on. the guy i grappled was doing it for a little more then a year.

one was i got him was a headlock, the other was an armbar. he got me in a mean headlock, a key lock (stupid me thought i could counter it) and just messing around. we were both a bit drunk too. he showed me some moves. i helped him with his stand up.

am i going to enter advanced at the next tournament? no, i might try beginner, i am actually going to take a couple grappling classes in the future.

i met Gabriel Gonzaga's grappling coach. (Gonzaga who beat Mirko Cro Cop). he is in the next town over. heard about him, but never met him. i had a chance to talk to him. really nice guy, knows what he is talking about and very humble. i might actually go there for some training if i can find the funds for it.

[unkokusai]

i never said i grappled a top guy ;) i just said they were there. come on, I am not stupid.


Holy misrepresentation, Batman! Do you think you made that clear in your previous post?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i never said i grappled a top guy ;) i just said they were there. come on, I am not stupid. Joe Lauzon was there, i aint going to take him on. the guy i grappled was doing it for a little more then a year.

.

Why not?
If you are gonna spar/roll, roll with the best.
Joe is a great guy, you would have had a blast and learned a lot.

[Shaolinlueb]

Why not?
If you are gonna spar/roll, roll with the best.
Joe is a great guy, you would have had a blast and learned a lot.

yeah I would have learned a lot. but i don't really know him, and never had a chance to introduce myself. he was busy with his friends.

[Yao Sing]

Keep looking for stuff that doesn't exist because no BJJ black belt would cross his ankles like that. No one but a white belt would make that mistake, it's darn basic

Just for amusement, since you state you understand the ankle lock, explain it for us all........

Can't say I'm a real big fan of tattooedmonk but if you guys are talking about crossing the ankles while on opponents back going for a RNC then watch the Nogueira v Herring fight.

I'm watching the tape right now because I've been out of town but Nogueira crossed his ankles at 2:14 min left in the 2nd round.

Now I guess you could argue that after the kick to the head he regressed to a white belt for awhile until he recovered. :D

[tattooedmonk]

Can't say I'm a real big fan of tattooedmonk but if you guys are talking about crossing the ankles while on opponents back going for a RNC then watch the Nogueira v Herring fight.

I'm watching the tape right now because I've been out of town but Nogueira crossed his ankles at 2:14 min left in the 2nd round.

Now I guess you could argue that after the kick to the head he regressed to a white belt for awhile until he recovered. :DThanks, I think.
:rolleyes::cool: I have seen guys in a few BJJ schools around town do it as well. from white to black. If it is a rookie manuever or not , alot of people do it. and I have not seen anyone correct them.
If you want to know which schools I will give you this one is a Gracie school in N Hollywood and another is a Machado school in Reseda.