Iron Palm Question

[Chosen-frozen]

I know that there are several different types of hand conditioning methods out there. I`ve been training for a little over a month in the internal method used by GM Gene Chicoine and the folks at Green Dragon Studio in Ohio. I`d appreciate some input from people who are familiar with that particular routine.
In the final meditation step as you run the chi up the back and down to the palm until you feel the pulse in your hand...I sometimes feel the pulse beating in different locations. Ie: At the base of the fingers between the 3rd and 4th finger, or between the 2nd and 3rd, or once on the back of the hand. Is this unusual? Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Why don't you ask your instructor, who will know much about what he is teaching you, instead of a bunch of strangers on the internet?

[Dale Dugas]

Chosen,

Are you training under a teacher or are you doing this on your own?

[Chosen-frozen]

I`m doing it on my own. I moved to northern Japan when I accepted a job here teaching English in the public schools.

[PaiLumDreamer]

You should probably find a teacher :confused:

[NJM]

I don't want to discourage practitioners, but I have seen an influx of people wanting to learn potentially damaging qigong or iron ___ techniques on their own recently. Or maybe I'm just noticing it more than usual.

[Dale Dugas]

I`m doing it on my own. I moved to northern Japan when I accepted a job here teaching English in the public schools.


You are not living in Iwate-Ken are you??

[Chosen-frozen]

You are not living in Iwate-Ken are you??

No, not Iwate-Ken. We live in Hokkaido-Ken, just outside of Sapporo. My wife is from here and we moved back about 2 years ago. It`s beautiful country, but the only MA available around here are Judo, Kyokushin Kai Karate, and Shorinji Kenpo (No, despite the name it`s about as Chinese as a chop suey pizza).

I understand you`ve taught seminars on the Chicoine method, have you got any advice or comments?

[stonewarrior67]

I Have Had The Same Problem. Are You Letting Your Hand Just Fall To The Bag Or Are You Slapping It? do Not Slap At It! Only Tighten The Hand And Wrist Area On Impact. Practice This A Few Times Before Each Different Part Of The Hand To Be Trained. Let Your Hand Fall All The Way Through Beside Your Bag And Support Blocks, Missing It Entirely. This Will Help You Break A Bad Habit If You've Already Started One.
As Far As Final Meditation, Sometimes Focusing Is Hard For Anyone. With My Left Finger(i Am Right Handed) I Touch My Belly Button, Dan Tien, Reach Down And Touch Behind My Sack(i Dont Dig In I Only Touch My Pants Or Shorts To Barely Feel It) I Touch The Base Of My Skull, The Top Of It, Then Run My Finger, As I Exhale, Down From The Top Of My Skull, Down Past My Ear To My Neck, Shoulder, Bicep, Forearm Wrist And Finally The Center Of The Palm. Now With That You Will Have Something To Concentrate On. Plus Do Not Skimp On The Time Of Final Meditation 5-6 Minutes Or Until You Get The Thump.
You Can Also Do An Awake Meditation, Stretch Out Your Arm While Watching Tv, At The Office Or Anywhere And Concentrate On Running It To Your Palm To Get The Thump.
I'll Be Interested To Read What Dale Has To Say. Good Luck And Keep Training Hard!

[bodhitree]

you're worried about iron palm when you could be training judo?:confused::confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

you're worried about iron palm when you could be training judo?:confused::confused:


Don't you know that IP is where the "judo chop" came from ??

[stonewarrior67]

i agree that learning judo in japan would be super cool and once in a lifetime experience but iron palm did not originate from japan it originated from china and a watered down version made it's way to japan. when you look at a person who trained their hand japanese style their hands resemble more of a foot with golf ball sized knuckles from hitting the makawara board. when you look at someone trained in iron palm there is no difference in the appearance except that the hand that is trained is a bit larger but one could not pick it up on first glance. with the japanese style it is all external and the injuries it produces will also be generally external. with original iron palm you can do external and internal damage. Very few people and i mean very few train seriously in either method today and i would not want to get hit by either.

[NJM]

i agree that learning judo in japan would be super cool and once in a lifetime experience but iron palm did not originate from japan it originated from china and a watered down version made it's way to japan. when you look at a person who trained their hand japanese style their hands resemble more of a foot with golf ball sized knuckles from hitting the makawara board. when you look at someone trained in iron palm there is no difference in the appearance except that the hand that is trained is a bit larger but one could not pick it up on first glance. with the japanese style it is all external and the injuries it produces will also be generally external. with original iron palm you can do external and internal damage. Very few people and i mean very few train seriously in either method today and i would not want to get hit by either.

Nicely put.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having done both ( Judo and IP), they compliment each other very nicely.

[Chosen-frozen]

My wife`s older brother Tastuo is a retired college Judo coach and I`ve gone to 3 different Judo clubs with him. I`m not particullarly impressed. It` great in a strictly limited environment where both guys are only trying to throw or get a take down. And everyone I`ve met has had great physical conditioning.

But the few guys I`ve crossed arms with are suckers for chin na, it shuts them down right now. Then they`ve been easy to throw or sweep. And even though I don`t know any Judo most of them have a very tough time throwing me because they can`t break my balance easily. (Thank you Uncle Burl for making me do stances for hours and hours you sadistic SOB)

I`d be more interested in trying Sumo. And I`d give my eye teeth to find someone here who knew Shuai Jiao. Oddly enough even though the movement and theory are 100% different Sumo and Shuai Jiao are written with the same characters. Weird.

[Samurai Jack]

But the few guys I`ve crossed arms with are suckers for chin na, it shuts them down right now. Then they`ve been easy to throw or sweep. And even though I don`t know any Judo most of them have a very tough time throwing me because they can`t break my balance easily. (Thank you Uncle Burl for making me do stances for hours and hours you sadistic SOB)


You've never really grappled with a judoka, have you? It's okay to admit it.

If you go to the edit button, you can delete that last paragraph. After a few weeks everyone will forget that you wrote it.

Who knows? They might even take you seriously in the future.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My wife`s older brother Tastuo is a retired college Judo coach and I`ve gone to 3 different Judo clubs with him. I`m not particullarly impressed. It` great in a strictly limited environment where both guys are only trying to throw or get a take down. And everyone I`ve met has had great physical conditioning.

But the few guys I`ve crossed arms with are suckers for chin na, it shuts them down right now. Then they`ve been easy to throw or sweep. And even though I don`t know any Judo most of them have a very tough time throwing me because they can`t break my balance easily. (Thank you Uncle Burl for making me do stances for hours and hours you sadistic SOB)

I`d be more interested in trying Sumo. And I`d give my eye teeth to find someone here who knew Shuai Jiao. Oddly enough even though the movement and theory are 100% different Sumo and Shuai Jiao are written with the same characters. Weird.

*shakes head*

Dude you give any judoka worth his salt a static stance, you are airborne.

[Golden Spider]

Unless, of course, you are good at rooting methods, which are part of ironpalm training.

[Chosen-frozen]

Okay here goes, 1) I never said anything about rooting in a static stance. I said that because I focused on stance training when I was beginning they have a hard time breaking my balance. Yes, you`re right . If I stood in ANY position w/o moving I`d be a sucker for a throw or sweep myself. But stance training isn`t about just standing in a few positions...not if it`s done correctly. Because no none fights from an immobile position. Proper stance training progresses from holding stances, to shifting balance while staying in one stance, to shifting from one stance to another, to walking the floor in all directions shifting from onestance to another according to how your body weight is moving. Stance work is ALL ABOUT BALANCE.

2)Every judoka I`ve worked out with tries to break my balance by pushing or pulling my trunk. To do this they have to grab me. While they`re trying to get my hips or shoulders to move by jerking my gi around my neck, I step and use a jointlock to make them break their own balance. It works more often than not. All I have to worry about is staying mobile (Stance Training) and keeping my head up and my hips under my shoulders (Wadda ya know, that sounds like stance training too.).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless, of course, you are good at rooting methods, which are part of ironpalm training.

Rooting against a trained judoka?

Good luck with that.

[bodhitree]

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

whhooop Whhoop Whhoop Whhoop

bwoooooop Bwoooop Bwooooop Bwoooop


BS Alert Going Off



Bwwooooop Bwwoooooop Bwwooooop

[bodhitree]

2)Every judoka I`ve worked out with tries to break my balance by pushing or pulling my trunk. To do this they have to grab me. While they`re trying to get my hips or shoulders to move by jerking my gi around my neck, I step and use a jointlock to make them break their own balance. It works more often than not. All I have to worry about is staying mobile (Stance Training) and keeping my head up and my hips under my shoulders (Wadda ya know, that sounds like stance training too.).

Post a vid

[stonewarrior67]

not everyone carries a cam corder with them everywhere and not every moment in time is "you tubed". i do not know the original poster but i take it he is an American and he probably is taller and outweighs his opponents which would account for it being hard for them to throw him. also, he might be stronger than his opposition. then there is skill level which is a whole different ball of wax. John Allen has said for years that a good big man is better than a good little man any day of the week. people balk at that last statement but it is true.
another thing is the stance training he is talking about. people who readily say that stance training is bs do not know what they are talking about because they've never had the opportunity to learn or they did not have guts to take the pain that is associated with stance training and to benefit anything from their meager attempts. it gives you tremendous leg power and exceptional balance.
if he had said he had bested Mike Swain over and over my bs antenna would go up and i'd want to see a vid too.
chosen-frozen please enlighten us to your stats vs your opponents.
plus i pm'd you ...check the little green box in the upper right hand corner of your screen marked private messages.

[sanjuro_ronin]

not everyone carries a cam corder with them everywhere and not every moment in time is "you tubed". i do not know the original poster but i take it he is an American and he probably is taller and outweighs his opponents which would account for it being hard for them to throw him. also, he might be stronger than his opposition. then there is skill level which is a whole different ball of wax. John Allen has said for years that a good big man is better than a good little man any day of the week. people balk at that last statement but it is true.
another thing is the stance training he is talking about. people who readily say that stance training is bs do not know what they are talking about because they've never had the opportunity to learn or they did not have guts to take the pain that is associated with stance training and to benefit anything from their meager attempts. it gives you tremendous leg power and exceptional balance.
if he had said he had bested Mike Swain over and over my bs antenna would go up and i'd want to see a vid too.
chosen-frozen please enlighten us to your stats vs your opponents.
plus i pm'd you ...check the little green box in the upper right hand corner of your screen marked private messages.

No doubt that a good big guy beats a good little guy, I don't know of anyone that will argue that.
Good being whatever it may be at the time.

Having done Stance training in both CMA and JMA and just the other day, for ****s and giggles, stood in a horse stance with 50lbs of weights strapped to my dip belt, for 30 min, not having done typical stance training in years, and also having a BB in Judo I can clearly say this:
Static stance and rooting is one thing, applying it against a trained judoka is another.

[stonewarrior67]

we could do this all morning but i'm not going to. no one is attacking you or judoka (i like judo and am on a judo only forum from time to time), the guy is relating his experiences with judo guys he has met. one reason why i dont think this is odd or even close to bs...i attended a school that was mixed and it had a judo program...there was some serious judoka at the school and from time to time there would be wrestlers, former high school and 1 collegian, who came in and not only defended themselves from the throws but ended up throwing the judo players and they did not even have one single lesson. those guys had exceptional balance and power and you can get that from stance training.
my bs radar did go up a little for the 30 minute horse stance with 50lbs strapped to you but if you say it is so it is so, i am not going to ask you to you tube it. everyone have a great day and when this thread goes back to iron palm i'll be back to it! where is dale anyhow?

[sanjuro_ronin]

we could do this all morning but i'm not going to. no one is attacking you or judoka (i like judo and am on a judo only forum from time to time), the guy is relating his experiences with judo guys he has met. one reason why i dont think this is odd or even close to bs...i attended a school that was mixed and it had a judo program...there was some serious judoka at the school and from time to time there would be wrestlers, former high school and 1 collegian, who came in and not only defended themselves from the throws but ended up throwing the judo players and they did not even have one single lesson. those guys had exceptional balance and power and you can get that from stance training.
my bs radar did go up a little for the 30 minute horse stance with 50lbs strapped to you but if you say it is so it is so, i am not going to ask you to you tube it. everyone have a great day and when this thread goes back to iron palm i'll be back to it! where is dale anyhow?

Dale is doing his thing, as always...:)
As for the the horse stance with the 50lbs, I would you tube it, but who is gonna watch 30 mins of that !?!?!?!
LOL !

[Dale Dugas]

Brothers,

I pmed Chozen Frozen as Iron Palm is not something to be gleaned from a forum. You really would need to come visit me or attend one of my upcoming seminars http://www.americansocietyofinternalarts.org/continuingeducation/continuingeducation.html to get hands on instruction.

Doing things on your own from tapes or books is dangerous. I have no idea what CF is using for Iron Palm medicine, what materials he is striking as well as all the things I would need to see in person to help him further his training and do it correctly.

You want the material then come get it from a real person, once you have the concepts/material down then you can watch tapes to remind yourself of the concepts needed for training.

Be well,

Dale

[Akronviper]

Doing things on your own from tapes or books is dangerous. I have no idea what CF is using for Iron Palm medicine, what materials he is striking as well as all the things I would need to see in person to help him further his training and do it correctly.

You want the material then come get it from a real person, once you have the concepts/material down then you can watch tapes to remind yourself of the concepts needed for training.


Do I get person to person instruction when I buy your videos.

[stonewarrior67]

I think Akron Viper has a point Dale and person to person is out of the question for Chosen-Frozen being that he is in Japan. GM Chicoine did an excellent job on the Green Dragon tape and no one could supercede his insight...the medicine is an issue but he is over in the orient...see if mike biggie will send you Feemans hand recipe. do a search for feeman and he posted a topic that he has his old formulas. i cant speak for him but i hear he is a class act from all that i encounter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

GM Chicoine's video is excellent, though some can argue "incomplete", but there are others that are quite good, Dale's is one of them.
He is also super-helpful with questions and concerns.

[Dale Dugas]

Do I get person to person instruction when I buy your videos.

My videos are for informational purposes only. Trying to learn from a book or a tape is not advised. Always seek out personal instruction.

People are going to do what they wish of course. But I always would want to see someone and how they are moving, etc...

[Chosen-frozen]

Well since people asked, I`m six feet tall and generally run about 240-245Lbs. I`m fairly strong too, but I wouldn`t say unusually so. I grew up around plenty of farmers and carpenters who were alot stronger than I`ll ever be.

So far most of the repliies here have been along the lines of "A good Judoka would be able to toss you like a sack of flour". I agree whole heartedly. The good ones can, and they do it consistantly.

But the majority of the Judoka I`ve met here aren`t able to dominate me consistantly. The level of skill I`ve run across here isn`t that high. THAT ISN`T TO SAY JAPAN HAS NO GOOD JUDUKA. I DID NOT SAY THAT. What I am saying is this....Of the people here who playu judo, the vast majority aren`t highly skilled.Only the few very serious Judoka who train hard day in and day out get that good. And they are few and far between.

A good analogy might be basketball. Basketball was originated in the US. The best players are in the American NBA. And just about every Jr High, High School, and University has a team. SO the level of instruction must be pretty high, right?But not everyone who plays is good at it. Most play for fun and a really serious player or coach would cringe at the mistakes we make. There are a few great players we all like to watch, but they`re the exception not the norm. Judo is the same way in Japan.

If I offended any serious Judoka, I appologize. I`m just sharing my own personal experiances because that`s all I have to go on. If there were a club near here that consistantly (That`s the key word) produced outstanding Judoka, I`d love to train there. But there isn`t, and most of the coaches in the area agree on that.
See ya`
Dave Young,
Sapporo, Japan

[Akronviper]

My videos are for informational purposes only. Trying to learn from a book or a tape is not advised. Always seek out personal instruction.
I understand just playing devils advocate, its one thing to watch a tape and hit a bag and another for someone to watch you hit the bag a fine tune your technique. Its just not hitting the bag its how you hit it that makes the difference.

Ronin, "Imcomplete" how so. Not arguing just never heard that before about that style Iron Palm.

[Dale Dugas]

There are somethings that Master Chicoine taught me that are not shown or mentioned at all on the Green Dragon Tape.

Master Chicoine told me that he is no longer affliated with Green Dragon, hence you do not see any more ads with Sifu Allens Association together with Master Chicoines.

I agree with you about the hitting. Its a specific manner in which you need to hit it in order to succeed and not hurt yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand just playing devils advocate, its one thing to watch a tape and hit a bag and another for someone to watch you hit the bag a fine tune your technique. Its just not hitting the bag its how you hit it that makes the difference.

Ronin, "Imcomplete" how so. Not arguing just never heard that before about that style Iron Palm.

The video was incomplete, not GM Chicoine's style of IP.

[Akronviper]

There are somethings that Master Chicoine taught me that are not shown or mentioned at all on the Green Dragon Tape.

Master Chicoine told me that he is no longer affliated with Green Dragon, hence you do not see any more ads with Sifu Allens Association together with Master Chicoines.

I agree with you about the hitting. Its a specific manner in which you need to hit it in order to succeed and not hurt yourself.

That is correct there no affiliation with GD for at least 15 yrs.

I was wondering if that was what Ronin meant. Yes there are a few things missing but it seems the basic concept is there. Its been a couple years since I watched the video so I cant comment on exactly whats missing but also the 1988 Inside Kung Fu featuring GM Chicoine on the cover has a good article on Iron Plam by him.

Wow this thread has gone in a couple directions

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is correct there no affiliation with GD for at least 15 yrs.

I was wondering if that was what Ronin meant. Yes there are a few things missing but it seems the basic concept is there. Its been a couple years since I watched the video so I cant comment on exactly whats missing but also the 1988 Inside Kung Fu featuring GM Chicoine on the cover has a good article on Iron Plam by him.

Wow this thread has gone in a couple directions

LOL, yeah it has...

I think that the internal part that was missing, at least in the video I have, was so probably because its not really something that can be taught via video, unless there is prior "internal" experience, point-of-reference if you will.

[Akronviper]

LOL, yeah it has...

I think that the internal part that was missing, at least in the video I have, was so probably because its not really something that can be taught via video, unless there is prior "internal" experience, point-of-reference if you will.

If I remember right the John Allen section covers the missing exercises, but I cant stand to listen him to find out, I made it into a DVD I will have to look because I'm intrigued now :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I remember right the John Allen section covers the missing exercises, but I cant stand to listen him to find out, I made it into a DVD I will have to look because I'm intrigued now :D

he does cover it, in his own unique way.

[Akronviper]

Since theres a few topics in this thread I've got another.

When herbs are imported to the U.S dont they radiate them to kill any bugs or diseases. Wouldnt this hurt the herb potency, or are herbs you get in the U.S grown in the U.S. Just a thought maybe being in Japan if provided a list of ingredients he would have the best Jow.

[stonewarrior67]

radiate the herbs? i dont know if customs would have the time to radiate anything but that's a good question.
as far as i know (and that's very little) the herbs are already dried out before they are shipped to the states.

[Akronviper]

I'm not sure if they do. I thought they did. I know they wont allow me to bring any herbs or plant material (Seed, Dried flower...) through customs... I've always heard that the green tea is radiated so its not as good as over in the far east. Just throwing it out there, who knows?

[Piercinghammer]

I think I can add a little here: The big thing these days is suppose to be herbs that are not irradiated or treated with sulfur, both help to increase shelf life.
I know that alot of the herbs are sulfur free, I can see the difference in the herbs that I purchase. The sulfur treated herbs actually looked better. Though I wonder about the claim of herbs not being exposesd to radiation, there is really no way to tell by looking. I suspect that everything comming out of Asia is radiated
despite claims otherwise. Many herbs, from say 10 years ago would get bugs hatching out of them, be full of holes and turned to powder ( bug crap). That does not seem happen much these days with the stuff I'm getting.




Mike Biggie

7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai chi

MantisBxr@aol.com

[Dale Dugas]

I use to have bugs all over the place when I left herbs in big plastic baggies while seeking out 4 gallon glass jars and 4 gallons of booze to add.

As Mike said, you do not see too many bugs so they are getting better at whatever it is they are doing.

[TenTigers]

that's funny, bugs are one of the key ingrediants in my jow!

[Dale Dugas]

There are the wingless roaches used as well as other insects and then there are little weevils of some kind that could change your formula as they could be hot or cold or create a different effect by being in the jow...

[golden arhat]

not everyone carries a cam corder with them everywhere and not every moment in time is "you tubed". i do not know the original poster but i take it he is an American and he probably is taller and outweighs his opponents which would account for it being hard for them to throw him. also, he might be stronger than his opposition. then there is skill level which is a whole different ball of wax. John Allen has said for years that a good big man is better than a good little man any day of the week. people balk at that last statement but it is true.
another thing is the stance training he is talking about. people who readily say that stance training is bs do not know what they are talking about because they've never had the opportunity to learn or they did not have guts to take the pain that is associated with stance training and to benefit anything from their meager attempts. it gives you tremendous leg power and exceptional balance.
if he had said he had bested Mike Swain over and over my bs antenna would go up and i'd want to see a vid too.
chosen-frozen please enlighten us to your stats vs your opponents.
plus i pm'd you ...check the little green box in the upper right hand corner of your screen marked private messages.


yeah actually as an mmaist i'll testify to that
even my teacher(who has a long background in chu and hung gar kune) has said
that stance work has helped him immeasurably

for instance in weight lifting

we do horse stance and squats with punch bags on our backs
cos it works muscles in our legs we cant usualy get to

stance training helps alot