Is BJJ like Taiji on the ground?

[Fu-Pow]

Having had very limited exposure to BJJ I have a few questions. Would you say that BJJ groundfighting is similar to Taiji on the ground?

I notice that some of the best players of BJJ are generally not very big or muscular and that things like leverage, position, timing and other non-strength based factors seemed to be used to best an opponent.

In Taiji the strategy is to draw your opponent into an unfavorable position (ie off balance, over extended, etc.) and then issue force when they are most vulnerable. Is this a similar strategy in BJJ groundfighting?

And finally, as a Taiji player would learning BJJ groundfighting complement Taiji or would it hinder development of Taiji training in anyway? Would they flow seamlessly together through the different fighting ranges?

I ask because I am seriously considering learning some to round out my training but I would like to learn a type of groundfighting that is most like Taiji, not requiring loads of strength or force against force but that can simply be an extension of Taiji into a groundfighting situation.

One more thing. Does anyone know a good BJJ school in the NYC area? I am relocating in about a month and might be looking for a school where I can pick up some skills. I have been looking for a good Chen Taiji school but have been quite disappointed in the options, so I think I will just continue on practicing what I know and look for some other opportunities.

Thanks

FP

[sanjuro_ronin]

BJJ is BJJ and Taiji is taiji, but they do share some common principles such as relaxation and "flowing" with an attack.

BJJ is an excellent compliment to ANY striking art.

[San Soo Sifu]

Tim Cartmell likes to do both. It seems to work for him.

[Nick Forrer]

just go and do it...its not hard to find and you wont lose anything by going (except maybe some illusions about what will and wont work against an experienced player on the ground)

[Nick Forrer]

In Taiji the strategy is to draw your opponent into an unfavorable position (ie off balance, over extended, etc.) and then issue force when they are most vulnerable. Is this a similar strategy in BJJ groundfighting?


FP


You use this strategy a lot when sweeping someone from the guard

[lkfmdc]

It is like a finger
pointing to the moon
do not concentrate on the finger
or you will miss all the heavenly glory

It is like two sweaty men
Rolling on the ground
Do not concentrate on only the submission
or you will lose position and go to sleep

[RonH]

Having had very limited exposure to BJJ I have a few questions. Would you say that BJJ groundfighting is similar to Taiji on the ground?

Only superficially.


I notice that some of the best players of BJJ are generally not very big or muscular and that things like leverage, position, timing and other non-strength based factors seemed to be used to best an opponent.

This is how they are superficially similar. It's the same way performance taijiquan is only superficially similar to martial taijiquan. The underlying component of internal work at the extent that is in neijia is missing in BJJ, so that must be compensated for, if you want to truly compliment taijiquan.

It would be more accurate to say that taijiquan complements BJJ than BJJ would complement taijiquan.


In Taiji the strategy is to draw your opponent into an unfavorable position (ie off balance, over extended, etc.) and then issue force when they are most vulnerable. Is this a similar strategy in BJJ groundfighting?

Similar, except for taking full internal work/usage into account.


And finally, as a Taiji player would learning BJJ groundfighting complement Taiji or would it hinder development of Taiji training in anyway? Would they flow seamlessly together through the different fighting ranges?

Only if, in the end, you performed BJJ under all the same principles, as taijiquan.

[PangQuan]

I have a question about BJJ training.

As a beginner, starting to learn BJJ/JJJ I have a concern.

How can you be sure to find a school where you can go learn and not be too worried about injury.

By injury I mean if your learning BJJ you will roll with people more experienced than you right? Do you ever roll with people on the same level as you? If so how do the instructors usually make sure that the novices dont go so hard as to really mess you up, joint wise.

I would like to learn some BJJ but i have heard too many horror stories about over ambitious guys who dont know the meaning of restraint causing injury that will last a lifetime.

How do you know you are at a school that has a good injury rate other than asking the instructors? Are there any signs to watch for?

Im really interested in learning some BJJ but i want to make sure my elbows, shoulders, knees, etc. dont get all ****ed up and ruin me.

[lkfmdc]

Does anyone know a good BJJ school in the NYC area?



funniest post of the year :D

[Knifefighter]

Having had very limited exposure to BJJ I have a few questions. Would you say that BJJ groundfighting is similar to Taiji on the ground?

BJJ is more similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo because all are competitive and performance based. Most Taiji is not done this way. If it was, it too would be similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo.

[Fu-Pow]

funniest post of the year :D


Why is that funny?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a question about BJJ training.

As a beginner, starting to learn BJJ/JJJ I have a concern.

How can you be sure to find a school where you can go learn and not be too worried about injury.

By injury I mean if your learning BJJ you will roll with people more experienced than you right? Do you ever roll with people on the same level as you? If so how do the instructors usually make sure that the novices dont go so hard as to really mess you up, joint wise.

I would like to learn some BJJ but i have heard too many horror stories about over ambitious guys who dont know the meaning of restraint causing injury that will last a lifetime.

How do you know you are at a school that has a good injury rate other than asking the instructors? Are there any signs to watch for?

Im really interested in learning some BJJ but i want to make sure my elbows, shoulders, knees, etc. dont get all ****ed up and ruin me.

Easy, Tap when they are subbing you.
Most of the time, injuries come from egos.
Don't have one and you will have less injuries.

Submissions by the very nature are USUALLY applied in a progressive way, you won't be that surprised by them, they won't "hit you out of nowhere" like a blindsided left hook to the jaw, or a Taji inspired finger flick to the nads.

:D

[The Xia]

Why is that funny?
http://www.renzogracie.com/html/rzacademy.aspx

[sanjuro_ronin]

One more thing. Does anyone know a good BJJ school in the NYC area? I am relocating in about a month and might be looking for a school where I can pick up some skills. I have been looking for a good Chen Taiji school but have been quite disappointed in the options, so I think I will just continue on practicing what I know and look for some other opportunities.

Thanks

FP

In new York you will find a bunch of them and you will also find the perfect Taiji for BJJ, William CC Chen's Taiji.

[Knifefighter]

I have a question about BJJ training.

As a beginner, starting to learn BJJ/JJJ I have a concern.

How can you be sure to find a school where you can go learn and not be too worried about injury.

BJJ is a competitive, performance based activity. Injuries come with the territory in all combat activities that are competitive and performance based .

You will get injured along the road.

However, to keep injuries at a minimum, keep ego out of it and tap when you are caught. Also, don't roll with people who are known to spaz out.

[MasterKiller]

Why is that funny?

NY has a lot of quality places.

[The Xia]

In new York you will find a bunch of them and you will also find the perfect Taiji for BJJ, William CC Chen's Taiji.
Why do you feel William C. C. Chen's Taiji is perfect for BJJ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do you feel William C. C. Chen's Taiji is perfect for BJJ?

Its more "combat oriented", William has always been about the fighting and his kids are involved in KB and MMA ( or branching out to MMA).
he also has "regular" taiji classes.

[Fu-Pow]

BJJ is more similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo because all are competitive and performance based. Most Taiji is not done this way. If it was, it too would be similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo.

I'm not sure about the above statement. I've never studied wrestling, sambo and judo.

I can tell you that from what I do know and have seen, that there are differences. Taiji is not a simply a wrestling art, like all Chinese styles of kung fu it has Shuai, Ti, Da and Na. That is.... throwing, kicking, striking and locking.

Also, the thing that I think is unique about Taiji ,and correct me if I am wrong on this point in regards to other arts, is that the incoming force is almost always neutralized in an almost passive way before any force is issued.

Instead of "fighting for" position, in Taiji the opponent is left to kind of upset his own position through his own excessive force and then a counter attack (Shuai, Ti, Da or Na) is issued. (Sometimes the neutralization and counter happen so fast that they appear to be simultaneous.)

Perhaps at higher levels of Judo, Sambo and Wrestling this is the same (although I'm not sure they have Ti and Da)...but again having no real experience of them first hand I can't really say. My background is in Karate, TKD, Hung Gar, CLF and little bit of Aikido.

In terms of the Shuai aspect I'd say Taiji is probably most like Aikido.

[lkfmdc]

Why is that funny?

Renzo Gracie
Carmie Zocchi
The Santos brothrs
Marcelo Garcia
Fabio Clemente
Emerson Souza
etc
etc
etc

probably one of the best cities in the US for BJJ

[PangQuan]

However, to keep injuries at a minimum, keep ego out of it and tap when you are caught. Also, don't roll with people who are known to spaz out.

its a given injury will be part of the game, but this is what im curious about.

do you actually get to choose who you roll with at most schools?

can you be like "i dont want to spar/roll with that guy, hes a spaz"

how much freedom do you generally have at your average BJJ school to decide what you will do while training under your coach? On average do you direct your own training and who you will fight?

[The Xia]

Its more "combat oriented", William has always been about the fighting and his kids are involved in KB and MMA ( or branching out to MMA).
he also has "regular" taiji classes.
I was just curious. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

its a given injury will be part of the game, but this is what im curious about.

do you actually get to choose who you roll with at most schools?

can you be like "i dont want to spar/roll with that guy, hes a spaz"

how much freedom do you generally have at your average BJJ school to decide what you will do while training under your coach? On average do you direct your own training and who you will fight?

Take some private lessons, learn, enjoy, the worse thing that could happen is you get choked out and wake up with a sore butt, but hey, that can happen in any MA gym.
:D

[MasterKiller]

its a given injury will be part of the game, but this is what im curious about.

do you actually get to choose who you roll with at most schools?

can you be like "i dont want to spar/roll with that guy, hes a spaz"

how much freedom do you generally have at your average BJJ school to decide what you will do while training under your coach? On average do you direct your own training and who you will fight?

Quit being such a puss. Geez.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was just curious. :)

No problem, you won't hear Chen speaking much about chi and that other stuff, he has a "physics" reply for anything Taiji related and he can hit with serious power, even now.

[Knifefighter]

I'm not sure about the above statement. I've never studied wrestling, sambo and judo.

I can tell you that from what I do know and have seen, that there are differences. Taiji is not a simply a wrestling art, like all Chinese styles of kung fu it has Shuai, Ti, Da and Na. That is.... throwing, kicking, striking and locking.

Also, the thing that I think is unique about Taiji ,and correct me if I am wrong on this point in regards to other arts, is that the incoming force is almost always neutralized in an almost passive way before any force is issued.

Instead of "fighting for" position, in Taiji the opponent is left to kind of upset his own position through his own excessive force and then a counter attack (Shuai, Ti, Da or Na) is issued. (Sometimes the neutralization and counter happen so fast that they appear to be simultaneous.)

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

[Fu-Pow]

Renzo Gracie
Carmie Zocchi
The Santos brothrs
Marcelo Garcia
Fabio Clemente
Emerson Souza
etc
etc
etc

probably one of the best cities in the US for BJJ

I noticed you put Renzo Gracie at the top of that list. Is he the best one?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I noticed you put Renzo Gracie at the top of that list. Is he the best one?

He's not bad at all....;)

[Knifefighter]

I noticed you put Renzo Gracie at the top of that list. Is he the best one?

I don't know who is the best teacher, but I do know I would kill to be able to train with Marcello Garcia.

[PangQuan]

Take some private lessons, learn, enjoy, the worse thing that could happen is you get choked out and wake up with a sore butt, but hey, that can happen in any MA gym.
:D

im fine getting choked out, but if i wake up with a sore butt ill kill you all!


i guess i just need to find a good school and talk to the coach.


where would you guys recommend for Portland OR?

team quest?

[PangQuan]

Quit being such a puss. Geez.

lol, i cant help it, its all those years of CMA :p


j/k of course i love me some cma

[Fu-Pow]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

Yes, I'd say thats probably true but I would guess there would be a little more fluidity to it, one movement changing into the other with no gaps as each opponent tries to find the other opponents point of excessive resistance.

You see something similar sometimes in Judo (from the video and demos I've seen) where two opponents are feeling each other out trying to find a point of leverage. To the observer it looks like not much is happening and then whamo!, someone gets thrown or knocked down. Its the same idea in Taiji, its just that it doesn't always end in a throw, it could be a push, a strike, a lock, a sweep, a kick etc.

The Taiji founders codified the training method of listening and leading into a set of exercises which is typically called Push Hands (kind of misnomer.)

The way most people do push hands anyways is not correct, its too passive. In Taiji push hands there are two type of errors. One is called Ding and one is called Diu. Ding is "dumb force" where you are just resisting. Diu is "empty" meaning that you are too passive, you are running away and not actively leading the opponent. It usually ends up that the if you are Ding in one place in your body you are Diu in another.

The goal of Taiji is to stay in that zone between Diu and Ding through the whole body. Continuous and seamless (Taiji is sometimes called continuous fist). Not resisting but not letting go. This is the goal so that in the clinch when your opponent tries to "wrestle" you, you just lead them somewhere else that is not to their advantage and thats when you....whamo!.....apply your counter...whatever that might be.

(As an aside, the reason I made the switch over from CLF to Taiji exclusively is that the Taji strategy began to make alot more sense to me then trying to overwhelm your opponent with strikes to begin with. Also being a big guy subtlety is more important than raw power because when you're big you already have a lot of weight behind your strikes.)

So I'm wondering if BJJ is similar...just on the ground. I guess the only way to really find out is to go and find out.

Thanks

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[BruceSteveRoy]

Renzo Gracie
Carmie Zocchi
The Santos brothrs
Marcelo Garcia
Fabio Clemente
Emerson Souza
etc
etc
etc

probably one of the best cities in the US for BJJ

just out of curiosity what is the going price for bjj in nyc? i imagine its expensive bc its nyc but i would think that with so many talented schools they would have to keep their prices fairly competitive.

[lkfmdc]

I noticed you put Renzo Gracie at the top of that list. Is he the best one?

I am now an evil nasty MMA type, but I guess I got some TMA left in me because I put Renzo on top becaue the man deserves that respect

Not only is he wickedly good, he's as good a teacher, plus he was the first BJJ in NY, plus he has the biggest organization.

I think everyone I listed is good (I've trained with all but Marcello and Souza). Each has their own "flavor"

[cjurakpt]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.


for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm

That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Throw in takedowns and it would be even more similar to wrestling.

[Fu-Pow]

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.

Not all out....right I think I already said that in so many words...but it is "all out" within the confines of this competitive exercise. Just like Judo has competitive rules so does this exercise in Taji. This is just one version of Taiji San Shou. The other version is where you don't start in contact with each other and that's more like regular San Shou and you would be better off with adequate protection.




That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Firstly, these people are also not going "all out."

Secondly, this is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

In Taiji one goal is to maintain Zhong Ding or central equilbrium. One very basic thing that means is if you relax you should not fall down by your own weight.

These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down. By any measure that is not good Taiji. If you look at my example you see that the person in control is also always under control of his own body, not already falling down. They are commiting both the errors that I mentioned they are Ding and they are Diu. Resisting force and hanging on each other.

As I stated, I don't know much about wrestling other than what I have observed. However, if you are equating this example of Taiji with wrestling then I don't think that wrestling is the same as Taiji for this very fundamental reason.

All out or not the Taiji player should have the very fundamental quality of Zhong Ding or uprightness.


FP

[Oso]

no, taiji is like bjj in the air













:D
somebody had to say it...

[cjurakpt]

Firstly, these people are also not going "all out."
really? you should come down to a class and push a bit when you get to NYC and then you can decide if that's not the case - I'll be happy to give you an intro - they lov it when they can play with new folks


Secondly, this is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:
same invite to your teacher...although you may want to get his ok before speaking on his behalf...


This is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. In Taiji the goal is to maintain Zhong Ding or central equilbrium. One very basic thing that means is if you relax you should not fall down by your own weight.
These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down.
derrr - well, if the other person wasn't there, you wouldn't be leaning in the first place; the true test is, if I suddenly break off my contact or if I redirect you as you "lean", would you fall? answer: it depends, based on how well you learn to respond to that; in other words, the idea is how to apply so-called taiji principles against a person fully resisting you; and leaning into someone to various degrees is one way of doing that; and, actually, in a way, it is retaining central equlibrium - when there are two people, the center is inbetween them, so balancing the forces on either side (e.g., leaning) creates a central equilibrium


By any measure that is not good Taiji. If you look at my example you see that the person in control is also always under control of his own body, not already falling down.
first off, the first clip has a good amount of compliance, because it's obviously a demo - the guy doing all the falling is prepared and allows the techniques to be executed fully;
with the second clip, no one is falling anywhere - I have pushed with these guys on a number of occasions, and I promise you, despite the forward momentum, people are often (not always, of course) maintaining their balance quite nicely when they need to - BTW, if you look around the website, you will notice that the teacher is a mult-time national push hands champion, so obviously he's doing something right...
what is "good" tai chi anyway? I'm tired of people applying abstract concepts to the messy reality of life: "good" tai chi can be lots of things, and I don't give a cr@p about whether the "classics" say it or not; "good" tai chi is having balance in your life - you can have the best posture in the world and go home and be a sh1t to your family - is that "good" tai chi? getting in the circle and doing your darndest to push someone out while trying to apply listening sensitivity under a high pressure situation is "good" tai chi - it may not look like what it's "supposed" to look like, but what does that mean?


All out or not the Taiji player should have the very fundamental quality of Zhong Ding or uprightness.
again, all the "should" have this or that - who has the copyright on the tai principles anyway? why is it that, if they are so universal, that they only a re "working" when the interraction between two people is of a certain nature? face it - most push hands is an artifact that allows people to engage in some sort of exchange without challenging them too much in certain areas; well, that's not life, and personally, I think that we need to stop with all the stuffyness and open our minds abit as to what the principles are really talking about; just remember, Mr. Yang toned down his art to teach a bunch of Mandarin pretty boys, and needed some high falutin' jargon to go along with what he taught - what better way to get some pampered nobles to feel that they had achieved something then by making the ultimate goal of their practice to be maintaining their poise and not working too hard? yeesh

[Knifefighter]

My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down. By any measure that is not good Taiji.

Yes, they are doing too much leaning in some of the clips and some of them could be offbalanced and thrown because of that... which is exactly what a good wrestler would do (assuming the person did not readjust)- and there were a couple of examples of that type of offbalancing being done.That being said..

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.

The fact is that all real grappling looks relatively similar when two people are working live without compliance.

[cjurakpt]

Yes, they are doing too much leaning in some of the clips and some of them could be offbalanced and thrown because of that... which is exactly what a good wrestler would do (assuming the person did not readjust)- and there were a couple of examples of that type of offbalancing being done.That being said..

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.
re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

re: hanging with a wrestler - agreed - let's see how long you can maintain "classical" tai chi posture against someone who doesn't give a cr@p about Zhang San Feng...

[Knifefighter]

re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

Exactly... just like wrestling.

[Fu-Pow]

derrr - well, if the other person wasn't there, you wouldn't be leaning in the first place; the true test is, if I suddenly break off my contact or if I redirect you as you "lean", would you fall? answer: it depends, based on how well you learn to respond to that; in other words, the idea is how to apply so-called taiji principles against a person fully resisting you;

If they are "fully resisting" you then they are creating something for you, a point for you to exploit. They are Ding and this can be exploited. One of the central tenets of Taiji.



and leaning into someone to various degrees is one way of doing that; and, actually, in a way, it is retaining central equlibrium - when there are two people, the center is inbetween them, so balancing the forces on either side (e.g., leaning) creates a central equilibrium


If somebody moves and you fall you don't have Zhong Ding. Here's an analogy, if you push a sphere along the table there is always a "plumb line" from the top of the sphere to the point of contact with the table. The ball can roll but that line is never lost. Its the same thing in Taiji but to make the human body behave like a ball takes lots of practice.

[quote]
first off, the first clip has a good amount of compliance, because it's obviously a demo - the guy doing all the falling is prepared and allows the techniques to be executed fully;

Its a demo and they are not going all out. But it is also "freestyle" not a two man "set" so I think it is representative of certain elements of Taiji in real time.



with the second clip, no one is falling anywhere - I have pushed with these guys on a number of occasions, and I promise you, despite the forward momentum, people are often (not always, of course) maintaining their balance quite nicely when they need to - BTW, if you look around the website, you will notice that the teacher is a mult-time national push hands champion, so obviously he's doing something right...

WTF, these guys are totally off balance alot of the time! They just know how to "save" their balance when they start to actually pick up momentum. I don't care about trophies, push hands "competitions" are kind of silly because they take the word "push" too literally....ie people that are strong win.




what is "good" tai chi anyway? I'm tired of people applying abstract concepts to the messy reality of life: "good" tai chi can be lots of things, and I don't give a cr@p about whether the "classics" say it or not; "good" tai chi is having balance in your life - you can have the best posture in the world and go home and be a sh1t to your family - is that "good" tai chi? getting in the circle and doing your darndest to push someone out while trying to apply listening sensitivity under a high pressure situation is "good" tai chi - it may not look like what it's "supposed" to look like, but what does that mean?

In this context "good" means not very high level of skill, not whether you are good to your family.



again, all the "should" have this or that - who has the copyright on the tai principles anyway? why is it that, if they are so universal, that they only a re "working" when the interraction between two people is of a certain nature? face it - most push hands is an artifact that allows people to engage in some sort of exchange without challenging them too much in certain areas; well, that's not life, and personally, I think that we need to stop with all the stuffyness and open our minds abit as to what the principles are really talking about; just remember, Mr. Yang toned down his art to teach a bunch of Mandarin pretty boys, and needed some high falutin' jargon to go along with what he taught - what better way to get some pampered nobles to feel that they had achieved something then by making the ultimate goal of their practice to be maintaining their poise and not working too hard? yeesh

You're all over the place here so I won't respond.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

re: hanging with a wrestler - agreed - let's see how long you can maintain "classical" tai chi posture against someone who doesn't give a cr@p about Zhang San Feng...

Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!

[Knifefighter]

Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!

If you want to see these principles in action with skilled people, just lookup some NCAA wrestling match clips.

[Fu-Pow]

If you want to see these principles in action with skilled people, just lookup some NCAA wrestling match clips.

I don't need to, I just go to my Taiji class on Sat morning!!;)

[cjurakpt]

If they are "fully resisting" you then they are creating something for you, a point for you to exploit. They are Ding and this can be exploited. One of the central tenets of Taiji.
nice theory; try it in practice under high pressure conditions and see how easy that is to do...


If somebody moves and you fall you don't have Zhong Ding.
ok - no argument - but the question is, do you think you can develop this so that it will work in a pressureed, live situation if you never train it that way?


Here's an analogy, if you push a sphere along the table there is always a "plumb line" from the top of the sphere to the point of contact with the table. The ball can roll but that line is never lost. Its the same thing in Taiji but to make the human body behave like a ball takes lots of practice.
certainly there are "round" elements you utilize, but because the human body is not a sphere nor is it designed to behave in gravity like a sphere, the analogy is limited


Its a demo and they are not going all out. But it is also "freestyle" not a two man "set" so I think it is representative of certain elements of Taiji in real time.
yes, certain elements - the ones that operate very nicely when there is agreement between two people


WTF, these guys are totally off balance alot of the time! They just know how to "save" their balance when they start to actually pick up momentum.
the harder people go and the more resistance they apply, the more likely they will be off balance - just like in life (sorry, another "irrelevant" analogy you will have to bear), when two people disagree strongly on a point, the more likely the will become emotionaly unbalanced; as for not caring about trophies and competition - well, neither do I - however, I appreciate the opportunity to pressure test my pushing in a situation where the agreement is essentially nil; and if you think about it, learning how to recover your balance if it's upset is a pretty good skill to have, if, say, in the event that you do happen to get surprised on the street and do loose your center - you seem to relegate "just knowing" how to save your balance as some sort of lesser skill...


I don't care about trophies, push hands "competitions" are kind of silly because they take the word "push" too literally....ie people that are strong win.
that statement would seemingly go against your tai chi principles now, doesn't it? if you are doing "correct" tai chi, you should be able to beat the stronger guy in pushing, right? of course, in reality, superior physical strength is an asset like anything else, and using it in no way takes away from taichi principles


In this context "good" means not very high level of skill, not whether you are good to your family.
I was attempting to broaden the perspective; I guess that this aspect is something you do not look at in context of your training


You're all over the place here so I won't respond.
my point is that your argument is basically an appeal to authority: the tai chi principles are "x" and should be followed without deviation, that there is only one "right" way; that sounds vrey nice in theory, but has yet to be demonstrated in my experience when you do not have an agreeing partner; this theoretical world of what tai chi should be like is based on some construct that was pretty much invented by Yang Lu Chan in order that he could fill his rice bowl; if you want to talk about health and self-development, then it's fine; if you want to talk about real fighting, most of that stuff goes out the window; tai chi principles are not a magical formula that if done "correctly" necessarilly overide basic physical realities like size, strength and speed; simple as that


Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!
if you want to see tai chi work as a martial art, then none of what we are talking about applies: go read your history and see what Yang Lu Chan was famous for fighting with, and that should give you some idea of the reality of tai chi in a martial context; furthermore, performing under intense pressure regardless of what you do will always be a superior method of training for reality; as such, the way that the principles function in that sort of situation are different than how they manifest during more genteel types of exchanges

[Nick Forrer]

If you're going to train BJJ in NYC it HAS to be either Marcelo Garcia or Renzo Gracie...seriously

one is P4P perhaps the best competitive grappler in the world right now

the other probably has produced the most top guys (i.e. US born Blackbelts) in the US - certainly on the east coast

if you train with Renzo make sure you train with John Danaher - one of the black belts there.

[Water Dragon]

No problem, you won't hear Chen speaking much about chi and that other stuff, he has a "physics" reply for anything Taiji related and he can hit with serious power, even now.

Just pour the coke man, just pour the coke.

[Fu-Pow]

............

It gets a bit laborious going quote by quote and if I quote your quotes then I sometimes can't remember what your quote was in response to. So let me come back to paragraph format here as opposed to going point for point.

Firstly, I understand your argument that Taiji principles are abstractions, that nothing in real life is going to exactly follow them. Just like mathematical equations are never going to be exact representations of reality.

How much deviation from the abstraction is acceptable for us to still call it Taiji in principle? I think that's what we're arguing here, right?

In all practical fighting terms this doesn't seem to matter. So he used force, so what? He still won the match or the trophy or whatever. It got the job done.

Ok, that's fine. However, if you are using force against force and not adhering quite closely to the Taiji principles then as soon as you meet a bigger, stronger, faster opponent you will lose. And there is always a bigger, stronger, faster opponent out there.

That's why these Taiji guideposts exist because they're a roadmap to a level of skill where those factors while still there become less important. So what if you are big and strong, if you don't have balance I can throw you on the ground? How much is strength worth if there is nothing to grab onto?

Maybe its all a delusion/illusion? In my own first person experience I have encountered this level of skill. I'm much bigger, stronger and younger than my Taiji teacher, yet he can best me everytime I go against him. I probably outweigh him by 100 pounds yet he can toss me around the room like I was nothing, and trust me I'm not letting him. It has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with Taiji skil.

As to your other point, if you cannot demonstrate the fundamentals when you are not going "all out" then how could you possibly adhere to them when you are? See above for why you should adhere to those fundamental principles.

Lastly, in regards to the analogy of a ball I think it is still a good one. The thing you have to take into a account is that the human body is not really a "ball." But if you move the right parts, in the right way, with the right coordination then you create a kind of "virtual ball" within the body. If you're moving out of sync then the "virtual ball" no longer exists.

Anyways, I'll be in your area soon so if you want to get together so that we can exchange notes that'd be great.

FP

[Christopher M]

Not all out....right I think I already said that in so many words...but it is "all out" within the confines of this competitive exercise. Just like Judo has competitive rules so does this exercise in Taji. This is just one version of Taiji San Shou.

No, it's not sanshou at all, it's tuishou, as the video description says. The goals of the two are entirely different. So Knifefighter is basically right: the main reason this doesn't look like grappling or wrestling is because it isn't grappling or wrestling. And Mr. Chen would be the first one to tell you this.

And even if it were sanshou, it would still be a bad example of what a 'taiji fight' would look like, because of the huge difference in skill between the two practitioners.

[Fu-Pow]

No, it's not sanshou at all, it's tuishou, as the video description says.

Its free style push hands which is what I stated above....referred to in Chinese as san shou lit. free hand. There are different kinds of san shou in Taiji....ie different rule sets to train certain aspects.


The goals of the two are entirely different.

The goals of what are entirely different? San shou and tui shou? I don't get it..... tui shou can be san shou so your statement makes no sense.


So Knifefighter is basically right: the main reason this doesn't look like grappling or wrestling is because it isn't grappling or wrestling. And Mr. Chen would be the first one to tell you this.

You're right its not grappling or wrestling......its...guess what.... freestyle pushhands. (And I doubt you know Mr. Chen so you probably shouldn't speak for him.)



And even if it were sanshou, it would still be a bad example of what a 'taiji fight' would look like,

Your right its not an example of a taiji fight....its....yes you guessed it.....freestyle push hands.



because of the huge difference in skill between the two practitioners.

Agree huge difference in skill, one is the teacher and the other the student...quite obviously.

Ah Ok...I get it......I think the problem here is that you are confusing Tui Shou pre-set exercises with freestyle Tui Shou......which is a kind of pressure testing within certain boundaries....also known as FREESTYLE PUSHHANDS!!!!

[sunfist]

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window.

Id say that both styles do indeed emphasise leverage and alignment over strength. Thats just specialisation for you. Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.

[unkokusai]

Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.



Ok, what would that be?

[sunfist]

Submissions and strikes, respectively. Good tai chi people hit hard.

[Liokault]

My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

FP

Should read:







My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye, but being a vampire cannot be caught on anyform of image capture device, hence my not putting a clip of him schooling anyone, but rest assured he could...for the following reason:

FP

[cjurakpt]

oh snap...

[SevenStar]

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window.

Id say that both styles do indeed emphasise leverage and alignment over strength. Thats just specialisation for you. Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.

since when do we care about looking pretty while grappling? And since when did wrestling not include use of leverage? grappling is all about leverage. However, you CANNOT deny or downplay the use of strength. that's just how it is when people of equal skill are competing against one another.

[SevenStar]

I guess you can consider it pretty tho - here is one of our guys catching someone in a foot lock:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FXsv3gc5YM8

[Fu-Pow]

Should read:

I would but unfortunately he doesn't let anyone video tape him. But that's why I posted the clip of Joseph Chen, he's a classmate of my Sifu. So I'm using that as a representation of the skill level we're talking about.

BTW, smarty pants, where's YOUR video. I posted mine.

FP

[bodhitree]

I don't know who is the best teacher, but I do know I would kill to be able to train with Marcello Garcia.

You'd pretty much have to, one of my buddies wanted to get him here in Pittsburgh for a seminar, too $$$$$$

[Christopher M]

Ah Ok...I get it......I think the problem here is that you are confusing Tui Shou pre-set exercises with freestyle Tui Shou......which is a kind of pressure testing within certain boundaries....also known as FREESTYLE PUSHHANDS!!!!

No, the problem is that you're confusing tuishou (a gong training for the eight energies and the four skills) with sanshou (fight/application training). Freestyle tuishou is still tuishou (it is still gong training), not sanshou. Even if you want to call it sanshou, it's still gong training, which is the point you seem to be missing.

BTW, I'm on your side here: I don't think taiji application skills look like wrestling application skills, any more than BJJ applications look like wrestling applications. They're different arts. But taiji application skills don't look like tuishou either. And insisting otherwise to an audience that knows a thing or two about fighting is simply doing a disservice to the art.

[Fu-Pow]

No, the problem is that you're confusing tuishou (a gong training for the eight energies and the four skills) with sanshou (fight/application training).

No I'm not. San shou literally means free hand. There's all kinds of different san shou. The idea of san shou is that its spontaneous, unrehearsed. Now if I'd said it was san da then you might have an argument, because san da means....free hit.



Freestyle tuishou is still tuishou (it is still gong training), not sanshou.

Wrong. If its gong training then its not freestyle. Its freestyle because the pattern is not preset and in the instance I presented its competitive. Although in this instance it wasn't a competition it was a demonstration of freestyle push hands.



Even if you want to call it sanshou, it's still gong training, which is the point you seem to be missing.

Its not that that's what I want to call it....that's what IT IS called! And no its not gong training, its training applications within a certain ruleset. In the example presented they aren't doing any striking applications, only shuai and na.



BTW, I'm on your side here: I don't think taiji application skills look like wrestling application skills, any more than BJJ applications look like wrestling applications. They're different arts. But taiji application skills don't look like tuishou either.

You're right tuishou doesn't look like applications. Freestyle tuishou aka san shou looks like applications....because it is. I don't remember seeing people getting thrown in gong training...maybe that's just me.



And insisting otherwise to an audience that knows a thing or two about fighting is simply doing a disservice to the art.

Just because you know one fighting art doesn't mean you know them all. It'd be like saying hey I'm a professor of chemistry therefore I know everything about physics. Yes, in a general way they're both science but you don't know the specifics and in this case....you apparently don't know the terminology.

FP

[Knifefighter]

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window..

BJJ is the same as wrestling except that BJJ has submissions and doesn't mind working from the back. Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.

[Knifefighter]

Ok, that's fine. However, if you are using force against force and not adhering quite closely to the Taiji principles then as soon as you meet a bigger, stronger, faster opponent you will lose. And there is always a bigger, stronger, faster opponent out there.

If skills are equal, the bigger, faster, stronger opponent will win most of the time.

[Fu-Pow]

If skills are equal, the bigger, faster, stronger opponent will win most of the time.

Agree.... if skills are equal....but not all skills, nor all opponents are created equal.

Ok, now I'm just being a smart ass. ;) .

FP

[PangQuan]

In your standard BJJ/JJJ class/school/gym

what are typical conditioning exersizes done in regards to fitness, not fight application.

in other words, do they have you spend time running, or is that expected to be done on your own time? I'll assume strength training would come in the form of resistance and tools (actual grappling/medicineball/etc.) and let you do weights on your own time.

Just a bit curious.

Its been a growing desire to take some grappling training though at the moment my schedule is pretty hectic, I expect it to calm down in the next few months, so I'm basically just kind of feeling out what I might be able to expect from those of you experienced.


Ive been looking at these places.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

http://tqfc.com/Default.aspx

[unkokusai]

Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.



Except that the BJJ guys would always lose! :D

[SevenStar]

In your standard BJJ/JJJ class/school/gym

what are typical conditioning exersizes done in regards to fitness, not fight application.

in other words, do they have you spend time running, or is that expected to be done on your own time? I'll assume strength training would come in the form of resistance and tools (actual grappling/medicineball/etc.) and let you do weights on your own time.

Just a bit curious.

Its been a growing desire to take some grappling training though at the moment my schedule is pretty hectic, I expect it to calm down in the next few months, so I'm basically just kind of feeling out what I might be able to expect from those of you experienced.


Ive been looking at these places.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

http://tqfc.com/Default.aspx

running, rolling / breakfalling, cartwheeling, handstands, carioca, sprinting, jumping jacks, ab work, neck exercises, pushups, rolling to handstands, burpees, etc. done continuously in follow the leader format.

sprinting with a partner on your back, squats while holding partner in fireman's carry position across your shoulders, wheelbarrow, plyometric work, etc.

rolling (grappling), pummeling, takedown drills, escape drills, sprawling...

approx. 30 mins of class time is dedicated to this type of stuff. in addition, we roll for 30 - 45 mins of each class.

[PangQuan]

running, rolling / breakfalling, cartwheeling, handstands, carioca, sprinting, jumping jacks, ab work, neck exercises, pushups, rolling to handstands, burpees, etc. done continuously in follow the leader format.

sprinting with a partner on your back, squats while holding partner in fireman's carry position across your shoulders, wheelbarrow, plyometric work, etc.

rolling (grappling), pummeling, takedown drills, escape drills, sprawling...

approx. 30 mins of class time is dedicated to this type of stuff. in addition, we roll for 30 - 45 mins of each class.

sweet!

that sounds pretty similar to the way my old shaolin teacher would run his classes when more of the hardcore people were present.

Minus all the ground work of course :p

Its a real shame that I dont have an outlet like this right now, the wing chun school i go to doesnt do this type of conditioning....

Ive been thinking of cutting back the WC to 1 or 2 days a week and starting up some grappling....

[SevenStar]

Go for it - you won't be disappointed.

[Liokault]

I would but unfortunately he doesn't let anyone video tape him. But that's why I posted the clip of Joseph Chen, he's a classmate of my Sifu. So I'm using that as a representation of the skill level we're talking about.

BTW, smarty pants, where's YOUR video. I posted mine.

FP


Being a Vampire means that i'm unable to point you towards any of the many clips of me on the interweb.

[sunfist]

since when do we care about looking pretty while grappling?

I wasnt the one who brought asthetics up. Simply pointing out it does infact support the comparison. And i agree BJJ (and taiji) can look **** purty, especially when youve got a significant skill difference.



And since when did wrestling not include use of leverage? grappling is all about leverage. However, you CANNOT deny or downplay the use of strength. that's just how it is when people of equal skill are competing against one another.

Its a question of emphasis, by focusing less on strength, you emphasise the aspects of leverage more. I was not saying strength is ineffective, simply that it is a lesser component of both BJJ and taiji than it is of wrestling. The questions of why some arts do choose to emphasise strength less, and where an ideal balance should be struck are interesting, but ultimately irrelevant to the original comparison.

[sunfist]

BJJ is the same as wrestling except that BJJ has submissions and doesn't mind working from the back. Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.

Generally ive found it looks pretty different, but most schools are integrating wrestling in increasing amounts. Afterall, if this is not the case you tend to end up with the amusing paradox of skilled groundfighters who couldnt take someone down to save their life :p

I suppose you could take the view that its a progressive martial art, and therefore 'everything is BJJ', but this is not what is being sold. Was it rickson who said something along the lines of 'the jujitsu is flawless, defeat is because of the flaws in the man'?

Now if we instead use the term sub grappling, it becomes a fairer statement, only sub grappling isnt a single art but a combination.

[meltdawn]

approx. 30 mins of class time is dedicated to this type of stuff. in addition, we roll for 30 - 45 mins of each class.

only 30 mins? p#ssy! juuuuust kidding. :D joined a BJJ school because my art doesn't have ground fighting. i tried to apply the lung ying i learned on the ground, but there is not enough technique to be successful in that position. i admit, i used to think very differently. but all i do is watch fighting on TV, and i guess i finally wanted to have it all.

this BJJ sifu kills, and i love it! we do warm-ups for an hour. Monday, i was kneeling in someone's guard, and i have to grab his collar and do 20 lifts. knees - stand - back to knees. ummm, i am 5' tall and the guy outweighs me by who knows how much. and they look at me like "so what?" :D

so, the biggest surprises now that i have gone over to the darkside:

keeping your elbows in does not always work on the ground.

strength is a huge issue.

timing is easier to assess because there is a constant bridge.

it is fun as hell!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL @ BJJ Sifu !!

[SevenStar]

only 30 mins? p#ssy! juuuuust kidding. :D joined a BJJ school because my art doesn't have ground fighting. i tried to apply the lung ying i learned on the ground, but there is not enough technique to be successful in that position. i admit, i used to think very differently. but all i do is watch fighting on TV, and i guess i finally wanted to have it all.

this BJJ sifu kills, and i love it! we do warm-ups for an hour. Monday, i was kneeling in someone's guard, and i have to grab his collar and do 20 lifts. knees - stand - back to knees. ummm, i am 5' tall and the guy outweighs me by who knows how much. and they look at me like "so what?" :D

so, the biggest surprises now that i have gone over to the darkside:

keeping your elbows in does not always work on the ground.

strength is a huge issue.

timing is easier to assess because there is a constant bridge.

it is fun as hell!!!!

Awesome post.

[Flying-Monkey]

No, because BJJ actually works.

[Fu-Pow]

No, because BJJ actually works.

0.5


...............

[bodhitree]

0.5


...............


I disagree, I give it a 9.5. You're going to hollywood