Wing Chun and the gym.

[missingfingers]

My master told me that doing weights and building arm muscles will stuff up your Wing Chun techniques but he was a bit vague when I asked him about push ups. Can someone confirm whether push ups will stuff up your Wing Chun technique a lot, just a bit, or not at all. It sucks having no arm muscles :( .

Cheers.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Do the pushups.

He's clueless.

[JPinAZ]

I'd say, that pushups, along with lack of proper stretching, can cause you to have a tougher time getting your elbows 'in' when setting up your structures (your chest gets in the way). If this isn't your focus in your WC (getting elbows 'in), then no matters.
I wouldn't say not to do pushups, but in the WC I practice, getting our elbows in to position is very much a key to our structures, so a broad wide chest can be a problem in the begining. At least until you learn to relax the shoulders and get comfortable in the eblow positions. I had some problems at first with this when I first started learning WC.

Some people might not have this problem. Depends on the style/system of WC, the body type, muscle mass, ability to relax, etc..

also, yes, muscles help (along with speed, conditioning, etc). But IMO, having proper structures, understanding the principles/concepts of WC, correct understaning of energies, timing, etc can go along way over using/having 'arm muscles' as you describe. We muscle things in WC when we fail to use WC properly. Again, just my opinion.

JP

[Mr Punch]

On its own:

That's bollocks.

On both counts.

I'm guessing your master is a strip of p!ss?! :D

I will admit that being stiff is bad for your wc, so if you don't stretch out right after your weights you're gonna have problems, and also of course, if you're really stiff because your muscles haven't repaired themselves after a heavy sesh it isn't going to help your wc at all either...

Also, for some people who don' t have much clue about physicality in general, lifting weights may interfere with your ability to learn to read incoming force from an opponent and react to it softly and flowingly... and also your ability to redirect the force through your stance into the ground.

But, for me (and I suspect the vast majority of people), I found that weights improved my wing chun in that I find it easier to relax (and therefore flow) because I don't need to use as high a proportion of muscular strength so I can concentrate on my structure, floating and rooting etc. Also I've found that through squats and DLs my linking in my body in general has improved immensely.

Lift weights.
If you find yourself forcing techniques where you didn't before, stop for a bit.



BTW, I got my heavy-set fu-bro to do tabata push-ups before training once, and by the end he could hardly lift his arms... he couldn't then rely on just strength and for the first time in three-four years of training with him he really flowed and was able to read me better, and pull off techs he'd never done successfully before and without telegraphing. It was a revelation!

Welcome to the forum BTW. :)

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey missingfingers
My take on weights and other training is in how you train.
If you train with explosive movements then it really shouldn't hurt your wing chun. You can do those explosive movements with or without weights.

Here's an article that may be of some help

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/strengthtraining.html

Also if you have time, check out his other articles and vids because IMO Ross' training is fantastic

J

[JPinAZ]

I agree, that rosstraining site has a lot of great info in it!

[Wu Wei Wu]

you should be encouraged to make strength and conditioning a central theme in your Wing Chun.

views that discourage you from weight training to enhance your Wing Chun are archaic, outmoded and outlandish and help explain why Wing Chun is not taken seriously by modern competitors.

i would suggest the following three themes should be studied to be a complete fighter:

1) skill-set and technique (in 'our' case it is Wing Chun)
2) strength and conditioning (e.g. overload principle, tabata intervals, anaerobic threshold, etc.)
3) mind-setting/psychology (to ensure that our internal operating system is aligned with 1 and 2)

WWW

[Liddel]

My master told me that doing weights and building arm muscles will stuff up your Wing Chun techniques but he was a bit vague when I asked him about push ups. Can someone confirm whether push ups will stuff up your Wing Chun technique a lot, just a bit, or not at all. It sucks having no arm muscles :( .
Cheers.

If you just push weights and dont train then of course it would be detrimental to your VT...

Flying pushups (as i call them) with the elbows flying OUT from your chest will work primarily the pecks/chest muscles, which are not utlised by most VT actions. However....

If you keep your elbows IN close to you body when you do a pushup, youll still be working the chest but you will primarily be working the Triceps, which will def help your punching and other VT related actions. Elbow power etc...

Most VT people that are anti weights, are that way because they realise that if you have huge arms you struggle keeping elbows in proper position and also with arm energies like, lack of elbow force and keeping the forearm tense when you shouldnt. But if your a small guy (or have small arms) youll hardly be struggling with the fore mentioned issues, right ?

IME weight trainnig also improves your tendons and ligaments around joints which the anti crowd seems to overlook. Because having stronger joints as well as good fighting structure makes you very stable, and often stronger than those with just big muscles.

Also think smart - when i do pressups, i complement them with oppposing training like punching and stretching so it has little to no negitive impact.
The same for leg exercises like leg press etc. I do kicking and stretching after working these muscles to maintain flexibility and speed.

I know where your comming from - im 6" foot and about 70 kgs (2.2P = 1KG).
Weight training is fine - anything in moderation.

DREW

[Lugoman]

I came to WC with an already bulky build, and it did and still does at times cause me to have problems keeping my elbows in and keeping my hands back in the chamber position.

What I've been doing and it seems to be helping (a lot) is devising stretches to help in these areas.

I assume the chamber position, with hands on the sides of my ribcage. I force my arms back and up (running my fists along my ribs) as far as I can and hold. This really seems to stretch my chest and shoulders like no other stretch I've ever performed for these areas.

For keeping the elbows in, I put my arms together at the forearms in front of my chest, like a double tan sau. with elbows touching I force my arms forward or upward concentrating on keeping my elbows in contact with one another. This really stretches my biceps, inside triceps and the backs of my shoulders (rear delts).

I imagine that performing these stretches after lifting should alleviate any such issues from becoming an issue.

Also, I tend to believe that if you are not already "bulky" taking up weight training along with your WC, you shouldn't have these problems as you would be conscious of the positions required in your WC and make corrections as you go.

Good luck in your training.

[Matrix]

I came to WC with an already bulky build, and it did and still does at times cause me to have problems keeping my elbows in and keeping my hands back in the chamber position.Lugoman,
I think that your stretching ideas are great. I would just liek to say that we should all strive to get our elbows in, etc. to the degree that our physique permits us to do so. I'm only saying this because I've often seen people focus so much on attempting to achieve some idealized elbow position that they sacrifice the rest of the structure.

[k gledhill]

The system and its structure training channels the force of the leg into the arms/fists as you fight/hit.We concentrate more on endurance exercises to maintain functional structures ....ergo no need for weights, but it wont hurt you either, as long as you follow the advice given here...the legs have tremendous energy capable of 'squating' heavy loads...imagine timing short continous bursts of this 'leg energy' into strikes . harness what you have already . Learn timing . in vt you dont need to be 'arnold' to be effective , but if you strive to also become a bodybuilder it will only make your energy output proportionately increase...as long as you keep good timing...'ground2pound' :D

[missingfingers]

Do the pushups.

He's clueless.

Sifu Joe Sayah is not clueless :) . I guess the type of weight training he experimented on made him feel his Wing Chun techniques a less effective, doesn't make him clueless.

But much appreciated for all the imput. I think what I got out from this is, as long as what you're doing doesn't have a risk of causing permanent damage (punching the wall or banging your forehead into the bag, my friend did that for her Muai Thai training...), go for it. If it's for you then continue if it's not, stop.

By the way, does anyone know Trich Huu Nguyen? There's meant to be a few articles on him quite a while ago in Kung Fu Magazine but I think they were written way before I was even born (club started 20 years ago, I'm 18).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Sifu Joe Sayah is not clueless . I guess the type of weight training he experimented on made him feel his Wing Chun techniques a less effective, doesn't make him clueless."


***Joe and I come from the same lineage, and I first met him many years ago. I'm sure he has nothing against doing pushups. But if he does, then I'd be shocked, quite frankly.

[Liddel]

I force my arms back and up (running my fists along my ribs) as far as I can and hold. This really seems to stretch my chest and shoulders like no other stretch I've ever performed for these areas.


If i read right -

In my Lineage this is the purpose of the opening hands in CK.
To stretch the shoulders back, flattening the chest...

My Sifu explained back in the day when they used to train for 6 plus hours per day peoples shoulders used to hunch over from all the Chi Sao etc.

So Gm Ip had intergrated a movement into the CK form to combat this effect....
:rolleyes:

DREW

[missingfingers]

"Sifu Joe Sayah is not clueless . I guess the type of weight training he experimented on made him feel his Wing Chun techniques a less effective, doesn't make him clueless."


***Joe and I come from the same lineage, and I first met him many years ago. I'm sure he has nothing against doing pushups. But if he does, then I'd be shocked, quite frankly.

He's not completely against it, I just said he was quite vague when I asked him.

[t_niehoff]

My master told me that doing weights and building arm muscles will stuff up your Wing Chun techniques but he was a bit vague when I asked him about push ups. Can someone confirm whether push ups will stuff up your Wing Chun technique a lot, just a bit, or not at all. It sucks having no arm muscles :( .

Cheers.

If you look at WCK as you would any other physical acitivity/sport, that might help you in deciding whether or not weight and/or strength training would be useful for you.

My view is that weight/strength training can be problematic for two main reasons. First, pure muscular strength does not play a large role in what we do in the sense we aren't trying to out-muscle our opponent and our power comes from specific motor programs. So the body mechanics, technique, etc. of WCK is not strength-based. From that perspective, developing more "muscle" won't help your body structure, it won't help your technique, it won't help your timing, it won't help your feel for the game, etc. In other words, it won't help you develop those skills that are a part of what we do. Just as strength/weight training won't directly improve your your tennis game or your basketball game or your boxing.

That said, WCK is an athletic activity, and the vehicle for that activity is your body. A body in poor shape and poor condition is not a body that can perform any intense physical activity well. The develoment of your skill in WCK will depend upon and be limited by the athletic condition of your body. To become good at tennis or basketball or boxing or WCK requires that you be in generally good physical shape and condition; to be really good requires that you be in really good shape. If you're not, and your gym, kwoon, school, whatever doesn't focus on that aspect, you need to do it yourself (and it might help to get a good fitness coach or personal trainer).

Second, WCK is a very specific sort of athletic activity and puts specific demands on our body. Often people weight/strength training ignore that aspect -- sometimes because they fall in love with that aspect itself and no longer see it as a means to an end, and sometimes because they just don't understand the underlying demand/mechanism -- and train in ways that may interfere with their WCK development. This is why a good coach/personal trainer can be really helpful.

[anerlich]

My instructor, Rick Spain, was Joe's senior in TWC.

He's been weight training intensively for decades. He also did bodybuilding contests for a time.

It certainly hasn't had anything but a hugely positive impact on his technique and ability to fight.

Best thing to do is try it and see whether or not it works for you, rather than to take everything you are told at face value, "master" or no.

Bear in mind that WC skill is not the most important thing in life ... according to the CDC, you are thousands of times times more likely to die of lifestyle related heart disease than you are as a result of a violent assault. A bit of cardio and resistance training is probably a good idea.

[FooFighter]

In my experience strength plays a huge role in martial art training and it is the foundation for many martial skills. Moreover it is very unrealistic to conceive an unconditioned person can survive or compete against someone of better attribute. There is nothing wrong for an athlete to develop his or her physical attributes so he or she can perform better. Strength is alone will not promise victory or martial excellence, but it sure helps in the development of a martial artist.

As far as strength and conditioning specialists know now, pushups have no adverse effect to technical development. However according to the SAID principle if you want to punch faster or hit harder, then you have to practice your techniques faster or harder. Pushups may help develop endurance, strength, and power so you have the work capacity to practice better. It may even increase muscle mass for deconditioned individuals.

Many strength and conditioning coaches have used pushups in the anatomical adaptation (general physical preparedness) phase for some of their athletes. I know for fact that Sifu Duncan Leung and Allan Lee have prescribed their own specialized form of pushups for their fighers. So here is my two cents. As long you do not have poor posture or any muscular-joint condition, then I do not think pushups will hinder your techniques. I would also suggest you work to fully recover your joint mobility in your neck, shoulders, spine, and hips. These areas may be weak links for you. You may also want to do (pull ups) to balance your wing chun specific training and pushups. If you have any questions or concern, please feel free to contact me. I do this for a living. Good luck with your training.

PS: Make sure you have good form in your push ups. This movement may appear simple to do, but there is a right way to do it. Have someone assess your technique to make sure it is right.

[Chosen-frozen]

I don`t know Wing Chun, but I do know that Randy Williams does lots of strength training. I would think it all had to do with how you trained.