Useless Techniques and other pet peeves..

[TenTigers]

In another thread, useless techniqes, or inneffective ones,contained within the TCMA forms, were mentioned as well as Sanjuro Ronin mentioning how there are things in Kyokushin that got changed not to his liking. I would be interested in not so much as hearing who agrees or disagrees, but specific techs that you feel are inneffective, low percentage, unrealistic, or downright useless crap.
Of course, we can go back and forth saying the same old,"Just because you don't understand,or can't make it work, doesn't mean it's useless..." yeah, we've heard it, and often this is the case. But...I think there are definately cases where due to the prioritizing of forms in the past several generations, that this might have occurred. Let's hear your thoughts.

[Fu-Pow]

Well this should be interesting:

Butterfly palms, most long swinging strikes (too slow, telegraphed), pressure point striking, wing chun bung sao

[bodhitree]

stupid drills where one person punches slow as hell and leaves a fully extended punch out there, cause thats what really happens:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'll take another position, it isn't that the techniques do not work, it is that they work IN CONTEXT

People have trouble believing this, but hopology (the study of the history of weapons) teaches us without any dispute that fighting changes over both location and time. Bare handed fighting also changed over location and time

If we throw out the trash, the bad sifu, the incompetant students, the fake applications, etc... let's look at even the real applications

They are based upon a context; ie an expected response dictated by how people fought at that time

I use gwa choih
I expect you to respond with seung gung wu jih
I will then use Mou Sau and maang fu ha san
I expect you to rspond with Pak Sau
I will then use Haut Kiuh to set up Baahk Hok Tan Soi

I show you this "application" and none of it looks contrived or impossible to "pull off"

I can train my students very hard to they use these techniques and think in these terms

Then they go out in the street, have a confrontation, throw gwa choih and the person on the street doesn't respond with sung gung wu jih, the tackle you!

This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Speak to (if they are still alive) some of the old kung fu men who were in China when western boxing arrived. It confused the living heck out of them. In fact, some techniques we now take for granted were actually devised to fight western boxing

(more)

[PangQuan]

A lot of jumping kicks.

I know there is great power in Jumping kicks, but at the same time, I doubt I would ever use one in a self defense situation.

Dont get me wrong, I actually quite like some jump kicks and have fun practicing them. Yet realistic self defense aspect, not very usefull. Best to be used on someone from behind suprise ;)

[lkfmdc]

I have a lot of students who have TCMA backgrounds. We jokingly call them the "converts" :D and I've frequently had discussions and demonstrated this concept

My tao bouh is predicated upon my assumption you will try and lock my stance, in trap your leg and counter you lock with my own

If you aren't using that sort of footwork, much of my footwork is irrelevant

I had a "convert" ask me about some of the CLF clips he had seen on youtube. This was after class. That night we had done a looping hook (to set up a takedown), an overhand (to set up a takedown) and spin back fist. I asked him if so, kahp and bin were different than hook, overhand and spin back fist?

(more)

[lkfmdc]

Bong Sau? We use it ALL THE TIME. But we probably use it in ways you wouldn't think of

I have a "convert" who is a pretty high level wing chun person. He's been with us about a year now. He says he is finding many of his techniques, but he is finding them in places he never imaged where he'd find them. He has also said that he is learnig to use them becaue we are practicing "live" as opposed to the ways he traditionally did them....

However, I also used him to demonstrate the "context" issue one night. We started trapping. I gave him a bridge, he gave me a bridge and we went back and forth, blocking, sticking, redirecting, etc..... "wow" my students were really impreseed, then "now!" I broke the bridge and just started throwing punches... the structure changed, the bridging didn't work

Wong Yan Lam and Lama Pai are famous for one real reason, they didn't "cross the bridge" or "crush the bridge", they AVOIDED the bridge....

[SoCo KungFu]

Anything that requires me to do a split or knee bendy thing to punch someone in the groones.

[David Jamieson]

?

useless technique? all technique is useless when not applied correctly or at the right time.

you could have a wicked right and great body structure, but if you can't land it, your technique is null and rendered useless.

context is utterly important, the technique is used as said in context it is fine, out of context = nothing.

not understanding or being able to apply doesn't invalidate anything. It just means you are currently unable to understand and apply.

people can say what they want and do as they like, but to disparage entire systems of martial arts amounts to ignorant rumination.

I hear it now and again how this or that won't work. Just recently I had a guy telling me that x wouldn't work against y.

we demonstrated and out of 10 or so attacks, x worked against 8 of the attacks and failed against 2 of them. Does that mean x doesn't work? Not to me, it's just means it doesn't work every time. NO technique does. Especially not in realistic training scenarios where you are actually using intention.

beginners shouldn't be going full bore anyway, it promotes poor structure and limioted understanding and increases risk of injury from training.

If you are getting injured from training all the time, then I would venture to say that you are training improperly and incorrectly. If you are getting injured in full bore competition or fighting, then that is normal. But training is training.

[SifuAbel]

I'll take another position, it isn't that the techniques do not work, it is that they work IN CONTEXT



Interesting.....

Although I see a disconnect in my own practice to what you are describing. I don't teach a,b,c scenario at all. I don't teach expectaions of this sort. If anything I give my students smaller pieces. "Use when needed" is the general rule.

Especially in striking. "the right tool for the right job". I guess thats the cheung keun talking. We don't really care what the opponent does next in the scenario. That style is offensive and is concerned with overwhelming and dominating. One's body should be choosing the next move in context with the opponents movement. Not on a preset fight plan. If a gwa choi is appropriate for the space and angle afforded to it then by all means do it. What comes next should be a matter of feel.

In addition, this is not exclusive to CMA. Paradigm context happens everwhere. Boxing, grappling, whatever. People get used to "A" invariably being followed by "B". Every time we see someone use a tangent off of "A" we see that "B" changes or disappears all together.

Also, it all about what you can get away with and can do.

[Golden Arms]

Basically what the two guys above me posted..they said it better.

[rogue]

I broke the bridge and just started throwing punches... the structure changed, the bridging didn't work

I learned that little lesson about someone just throwing punches without stopping a while back. Even lousy punches if you throw them without stopping will confuse the heck out of a lot of traditional guys. It's one of those little things that I've yet to see trained in a traditional school, though I'm sure some do.

[Black Jack II]

Interesting question and one that almost always gets people's panties in a bunch....I like it. Overall efficiency and effectiveness for the average person will override any consideration of style so these are just personal viewpoints.

complicated hand trapping
a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effect
pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.
jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age.
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word "complete system" yet don't practice ANY modern weapon training...knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don't get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu's and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don't weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.

[TenTigers]

man, did I open a can of worms! We should probably break this into two topics.

One, my original querie, which was which techniques or movements in TCMA FORMS do you think are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless.

Two-which training methods are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless

and let's stay away from the "That's because you don't know how to apply your technique" rant. Not that it's neccesarally incorrect, but we can open up a third thread dealing specifically which ones you see as falling into that catagory.
This should create some interesting viewpoints, discussions and possibly open up a few doors for some. Definately for me.

[SifuAbel]

complicated hand trapping endless hand trapping yes. handtrapping to effect, no.

a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effectthese are relative. A block or grab needs to be followed up. Blocking is useful but only with follow through.

pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective. only when obsessed about to the exclusion of everything else.

jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age. in other words, not for the inflexible and LAZY!

Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.again, out context spinning in front of non engaged opponent, yes. spinning to change angle because of positional change, no.

any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.two totally different concepts. One comes from video games and cartoons. Hadoken!! the other comes from focusing direction and aligning proper structure and intent.

tma form training as a serious combat training aid.thats just your personal bias, ignorance.

People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler. True , but also true in reverse.

Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat. your best one.

knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word "complete system" yet don't practice ANY modern weapon training...knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don't get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu's and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don't weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.this is all falls into the category of urban myth. Anything,"In placement of" is bad.

[David Jamieson]

Interesting question and one that almost always gets people's panties in a bunch....I like it. Overall efficiency and effectiveness for the average person will override any consideration of style so these are just personal viewpoints.

complicated hand trapping
a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effect
pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.
jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age.
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word "complete system" yet don't practice ANY modern weapon training...knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don't get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu's and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don't weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.

With some of this I agree, but with some of it, I disagree. For instance, "china na without striking or a serious setup for effect".
Chin Na does not involve striking. Chin Na is Literally Grabs, Holds and Releases. As soon as you strike, You are leaving the realm of China Na. And If the lock cannot hold, then the Kungfu person will move to another attempt at resolution of the conflict.

Methods are methods. Every method should strive towards doing it's maximum intended thing while being trained. So, if someone has a lot of blocking methods, that's what they have in their system. Minutia is what a lot of systems are about. Categorizing and devising a method to employ what has been discovered. No harm no foul imo. might spend a little more time than you like on blocking methods, but there you have it.

Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
Spinning techniques? Talk to Carter about it :p, or the to large to mention amount of fighters who can and have legitimately pulled off spinning back fist and spinning kicks. And by the act of spinning you will turn your back on your attacker at some point in the spin.

complicated hand trapping
Hand trapping doesn't have to be complicated, but I think it's easier to say that anything that takes x amount of time more than the counter is not a very useful thing to be practicing. This doesn't mean trapping is not a useful skill to develop through whatever method.

any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
what's chi?

tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
what do you call "serious" and how do you train for "serious"? How do you acquire correct structure? How do you learn the shape of what you need to be so your structure doesn't collapse when pressure is applied? Patterns is one step on a long path, form is always required. Methods of learning and maintaining proper structure and form in the delivery of attacks or defenses are found in every martial art whether they be a 3 part combo or 20x3part combos strung together. If one was to only practice form and nothing else, then they would be lacking, but anyone who doesn't pay attention to their form is wholly lacking.

People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Who are these people? And a gun can defend against anything. lol Why can't any martial art defend against a trained grappler? say i hit the grappler with my baseball bat in the jaw as he runs at me. I think that people who think that a trained grappler and his way of practice can beat a guy with a gun or a baseball bat is out there! :p

Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat. retreat is never easy. lol. But this I agree with. You don't want to put yourself at a disadvantage by your own misadventure in any circumstance.

knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
To an extent I agree with this.

iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
I don't think that anyone who is learning real iron body skills is passing on sparring :rolleyes: By the time you get to iron body iron anything skills you've been full contact sparring for a while in any legit school.

People who use the word "complete system" yet don't practice ANY modern weapon training...knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
With the exception of gun, there aren't any kungfu styles that don't have a weapon component in the military styles. In the medical styles, there of course will often not be any weapons at all, but these are complete systems. Buddhist styles, a pacifist religion, contains weapons of blunt and bladed variety in myriad constructs.

People who don't get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
A lot of people do understand awareness and analytics aspect of training martial art. Maybe the terminology and language that is wrapped around methods is more of a problem.

People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu's and there abilities just because of a arts age. Seriously? So you don't like dreamers out there in MA land? This has little to do with method or training validity and more to do with the psychological makeup of "some" people.

People who don't weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.
People who don't body build? Or People who don't weight lift in the accepted way of the typical north american gymnasium? What about people who do body weight exercises vigourously? What about stone locks? Iron Rings? Weighted Vests? Heavy Weapons? Kungfu has lots of weightlifting and lifting weight in an organized fashion will improve and increase strength without a doubt. I gotta say though, I don't see a lot of heavy duty weight lifters living long periods of time or able to move with some of the relaxed power that you see in old bagua players and such. So, the argument overall is moot.

Anyway, I felt like responding to these, so there you have it. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In another thread, useless techniqes, or inneffective ones,contained within the TCMA forms, were mentioned as well as Sanjuro Ronin mentioning how there are things in Kyokushin that got changed not to his liking. I would be interested in not so much as hearing who agrees or disagrees, but specific techs that you feel are inneffective, low percentage, unrealistic, or downright useless crap.
Of course, we can go back and forth saying the same old,"Just because you don't understand,or can't make it work, doesn't mean it's useless..." yeah, we've heard it, and often this is the case. But...I think there are definately cases where due to the prioritizing of forms in the past several generations, that this might have occurred. Let's hear your thoughts.

Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a "non-exsisting" haed guard.
Horrible.

No real "useless" or "ineffective" techniques in ANY of the MA I have trained, though the application of them can be highly debated.
EX:
A buddy of mine was saying how the Phoenix-eye fist is "useless" in combat.
I showed him how effective it works.
But he said, no matter how painful, in a real match too much could go wrong (injury to hand) and the adrenaline would counter the pain effect.
So we sparred.
He admitied he was wrong.
HOWEVER, I have been "forging" the PE fist for almost a year and I can ALMOST drill it full force as if it was a regualr fist and at pretty much any target.

The right tool, for the right job, in the RIGHT HANDS.

[SifuAbel]

Right On..........

[TenTigers]

"Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a "non-exsisting" haed guard.
Horrible."
ah, ok. I get it. Totally in agreement with you. I also noticed that there are alot of spinning hook kicks being thrown in Kyokushin comps now. Although I also see them landing with brutal effectiveness. (I still wouldn't relay on it)

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a "non-exsisting" haed guard.
Horrible."
ah, ok. I get it. Totally in agreement with you. I also noticed that there are alot of spinning hook kicks being thrown in Kyokushin comps now. Although I also see them landing with brutal effectiveness. (I still wouldn't relay on it)

Low hands = high kick KO's.

[brothernumber9]

Useless and ineffective:

The ol' double cross arm block to stop an overhead knive attack, into the old wrist lock disarm thingy.

[TenTigers]

"Useless and ineffective:

The ol' double cross arm block to stop an overhead knive attack, into the old wrist lock disarm thingy."
-yeah, cuz I really don't think it was ever meant to be applied in that scenerio. This problem arises when guys who were stationed in the Orient, took MA classes, and when they got home, opened up schools, only having learned the rudimentary basics, with little or no explanation. Blind leading the blind.

[TenTigers]

Low hands = high kick KO's.

...check. (need ten characters)

[Black Jack II]

Sup,

Ok, I am going to have to do a mix and match combo response/clarify to both James and Abel as both posts are kinda close.


endless hand trapping yes. handtrapping to effect, no.

Fundamental trapping is great, trapping in its base form, is just holding and hitting the **** out of someone, this I dig. What I mean by complicated trapping is slap boxing for the sake of trying to get the trap in a non-realistic situation.

Hate to pull out the tired mma card but how often do you ever see this as applied in tcma? How many of you can pull off stand up trapping in the context of full range hard sparring in a repeated fashion???


a lot of blocking methods

My views on blocking are different than abels, not sure of James, but I view a lot of blocking as non-realistic in the regard that under the stress of an ad dump, the psychological stressor of a situation which is outside of the training hall, you are not going to have the same ability to dictate what is coming at you and a good deal of situations are going to be flinch based responses.

I tend to like default position training better combined with jamming and basic fma parry work but again to each his own and there is not one road.


"china na without striking or a serious setup for effect".

Maybe I should of said joint locking as chin na has different facets. I believe through my own experiances, observations and other peoples research that standup joint locking methods are overrated without a continous offensive flow to get the lock into place, even more so if these locks are fine motor based.

Again, lets bring up the free sparring context.....would you class them as high percentage or low percentage in that context?


Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker

TenTigers question was on personal choices and this one just kinda fits that bill, I personally feel uncomfortable turning my back in sparring or in any kind of street based situation.

Even if the risk is small I don't like it becuase in the end we don't know what the risk will really be.


what's chi?

Heh.


pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.

Abel, if your in reference to the study of knowledge in that regard then thats cool, I think the study of how to inflict damage is a good thing, but those who pretend to be able to use nerve clusters to do one touch ko's and manipulations under a violent assualt and its stressors is stretching it big time and are just in it for the illusion and even the dollar.


tma form training as a serious combat training aid.

To clarify, you all know I am talking about those that actually think practicing a set form is akin to a real fight, lets not pretend to change what I was meaning. If you are using it as a refinement tool or some other tool of psyc****tor preparedness than more power to you.


People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.

James, you know I mean those who try and train there tma fistic methods on a non-grappler and try and showcase it off as a solid arguement as a solid grappling defense, as for the baseball bat statement, I agree, chaos is chaos and there is no answer to anything as we are all just debating what could be a core of different enviroments.

Abel, though it would be interesting to hear you talk about the reverse.


I don't see a lot of heavy duty weight lifters living long periods of time or able to move with some of the relaxed power that you see in old bagua players and such. So, the argument overall is moot

James did you do that on purpose, :cool:, me, you and others have had this debate before. But to clairfy just read my statement again and you will see my meaning.

That's all I have for now. Got to grab some chow.

[lkfmdc]

well, one obvious answer is to TEST each technique, figure out which ones work and which don't

the obvious problems with forms is that it is not a method that offers resistance or many of the attributes of application, and the sequences are based upon out of date context

if you test each technique and practice them realistically, in TODAY'S context, you'll find more and more what reality is

[monji112000]

The fact is you are taking key techniques out of context of application. A back fist for me isn't a great technique... why? I don't like exposing my back. I am not quick and I don't have good timing.. I have trained and seen people use this technique very well.. why? They use strategy and timing, and they set the technique up.

In my style forms and emphasis were changed after encounters with different styles back in HK. (CLF and Thai ...) Do you think that CLF punches the say way Mr. Western boxer does? Hell no.. so if you are expecting Mr. Western boxer you have to see what works and what doesn't and HOW TO MAKE IT WORK.


Butterfly palms, most long swinging strikes (too slow, telegraphed), pressure point striking, wing chun bung sao

Bong sao and Po Poi (butterfly palm) both a very effective.. the problem is you have to understand HOW to use them and then TRAIN it over and over again in a REAL environment.

I had someone slap a po Poi on me after I mouthed off about how its dumb. :D Could I pull it off.. probably not. I don't train that technique currently. Bong Sao... wow this is one of the most useful things on the planet. Its just the idea of jamming or tying up. Like tying a rope around someone's hands. Its the application not the technique. One of my fav techniques is Bong Lan Gerk. I use it almost every time i train.

[unyma]

well, one obvious answer is to TEST each technique, figure out which ones work and which don't

the obvious problems with forms is that it is not a method that offers resistance or many of the attributes of application, and the sequences are based upon out of date context

if you test each technique and practice them realistically, in TODAY'S context, you'll find more and more what reality is

What is the difference in context between 2 guys fighting today vs 2 guys fighting 100 years ago. Not sparring but fighting. I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't understand the last sentance of your post?

[lkfmdc]

What is the difference in context between 2 guys fighting today vs 2 guys fighting 100 years ago. Not sparring but fighting. I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't understand the last sentance of your post?

Read the post on the conext, ie bridging, a fighter in China fought with bridging. Trapping, sticking, redirecting, all trained intensively and the method used by pretty much all

Today, who is going to present you with a bridge? Today, in the US, you are going to see boxing structure, mostly hooks and swings....

In most of teh US, you are going to see good old folk style wrestling.... not the trips and unbalances most TCMA are used to thinking of

I'll add, push hands has deteriorated so much most TCMA people have forgotten the applications in wrestling/clinch.... we used to have a tape of "push hands" in Chen Village in China in the old school, used to love it, it was flat out wrestling, not the foo foo la la push hand crap you see in the US

Here's a big one, the UFC and MMA have made "ground and pound" a pretty universal idea. How much TCMA is based upon ending once the throw is done? Or standing over a fallen attacker? Today, people are likely to follow you down (especially if they have wrestler in school)...

There are a lot of examples liek this

[Becca]

This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Speak to (if they are still alive) some of the old kung fu men who were in China when western boxing arrived. It confused the living heck out of them. In fact, some techniques we now take for granted were actually devised to fight western boxing

(more)Doesn't sound crazy; I've heard the same thing about how Native Americans responded to being struck with a closed fist. It's not that they didn't used to fight amonst them selves. They just wrestled. So being punched was very odd, indeed.:)


And the one main technique I see no use for is using both hands in close to slowly push an opponant's foot back at them.

A) you'd have to trap the foot to be able to force it back at them and I can think of much better things to do with a trapped foot...

B) If they were actually kicking slowly enough to trap the foot, why did you bother to try and block it???

[Becca]

I learned that little lesson about someone just throwing punches without stopping a while back. Even lousy punches if you throw them without stopping will confuse the heck out of a lot of traditional guys. It's one of those little things that I've yet to see trained in a traditional school, though I'm sure some do.
Next time you're up in Denver drop in; we'll show you a "traditional" school that does that.;)

[Golden Arms]

I think LKFMDC said it best...train them under resistance and that will show you what is and isnt realistic for you...does anything else matter? I know some things that were not realistic for me 5-10 years ago are very realistic now, and some that were often used then are not so much now..they are all just tools in the toolbox...maybe you need the chisel, and maybe you are gonna use the 25lb prybar..maybe the situation will make you switch between them.

[rogue]

One thing I've noticed about all those high risk techniques like spinning back fists, spinning back kicks, wrist locks and the such, they're actually useful when you have a resisting opponent and he's a little creative.

[Sam]

We shouldn't think of forms as purely techniques but also as concepts. Many styles explain these concepts through poetry. Forms show Fa Ging, pressure points, nerve strikes, bone dislocation or breaks, and internal/external development. Immediate kill or delayed (Dim Mak) as well as disabling techniques.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

We shouldn't think of forms as purely techniques but also as concepts. Many styles explain these concepts through poetry. Forms show Fa Ging, pressure points, nerve strikes, bone dislocation or breaks, and internal/external development. Immediate kill or delayed (Dim Mak) as well as disabling techniques.

Are you kidding? This is exactly what I'm talking about....

I am so sad... :(:(:(

[lkfmdc]

I have mastered the death touch, if I touch you, you WILL die, I can't say when or how, but I can guarantee that you will die

[Sam]

Lets say you don't believe a touch could kill. Can we aggree that a concussion:1 a : a stunning, damaging, or shattering effect from a hard blow ; especially : a jarring injury of the brain resulting in disturbance of cerebral function b : a hard blow or collision. This can cause death either delayed or instantly. We know that martial arts forms contain techniques that affect organs and the nervous system this way. We hear everyday about people getting hit in the head or chest by a baseball and dying. It dosen't have to be a hard blow but just hit the right spot. Our bodies can be fragile and masters of the past have put together forms or ways of "hitting the right spots".

[Ben Gash]

This is an interesting and bewildering thread. In some ways it clarifies why certain people hold certain opinions, but in other ways I'm dumbstruck by some people's TCMA experiences. Training in context and training with resistance are indeed key issues, but these have been a part of my training for a very long time.
As for the context, what Ross said really confused me. If I'm throwing a Gwa Chui I'm not expecting it to be countered in a specific way. Indeed, if I was expecting it to be countered I wouldn't throw it. If I throw a Gwa Chui I expect the other guy to need a maxillo-facial surgeon. If he does counter then I use the Gwa as a bridge and do something else. Naturalistic reactive fighting has again been a core concept in my training for a long time.
As for bridging, i was always taught : Enter-bridge-hit-finish. I have never been taught that someone will "offer" me a bridge, except in the sense that people will "give" you an arm on the ground. Bridges are what happens when you make contact with your opponent's guard or his attacking limb. I certainly would not want to fight bridge to bridge to bridge, as that would mean that things were going badly for me. Beyond the first bridge I always aim to bridge and hit at the same time, unless the bridge IS my attack, using Shuai or Nah skills.
Now the interesting thing for me here is that as far as I'm concerned Ross uses bridges all the time. I know this because I've got numerous DVDs with him clinch training.
Long range and swinging punches? As a Choy Li Fut instructor I am going to say that there are NO long range punches in Choy Li Fut. Choy Li Fut is a short to medium range style. Proof? I do all my CLF techniques in sticky hands (as I was taught to). However, there are large movements performed in CLF> Why? Well, firstly to demonstrate power generation including follow through. When you throw the technique at a target it doesn't travel as far because it's stopped by the target, but because you've thrown it through the target rather than at the target you transfer more energy to it. Secondly, most if not all the strikes also function as bridges and throws, so you have to get used to doing full body movement with them (I'll talk more on this at the end). Thirdly, You shorten the technique as you get better at it. It's kinda like Taiji teaching the moves slowly until you've got them. Beginners learn the moves in a very longarm manner to prevent them from tensing up or putting the wrong emphasis on it. Once you've got the technique and developed your Ging then you can throw them however you like. I can do a Gwa Chui when you're right on top of me, and I can throw a Sow Chui with my shoulder (again, Ross does this when he's clinching).
Cont....

[Ben Gash]

Chin Na without striking? As a front line health care professional I can tell you that this definitely does work. However, you need to make use of your footwork and body (as you do with all kung fu application) to position yourself, to disrupt their balance, and you need to use bridging and sticking to control the arm. I've been attacked 30+ times and I've never had to hit anyone (and I've only been hit 2 or 3 times, never seriously). Again though, needs a lot of training and practice against resistance to be really good at it.
Sticky hands? Sticky hands is a great training tool. The 2 main problems I see with sticky hands is A) people see it as the be all and end all, and don't spar and B) people get stuck in the rolling hands structure and don't move beyond it. Again, I was taught bridge-stick-hit, and training was focussed to this end, with contact periods becoming progressively shorter as you got better, until you were at the point where it was enter-bridge-stick-hit. Also from my POV, good sticky hands should include kicking, low line striking and offensive stancework, clinching, throwing and Chin Na.
So in summary, do i believe I know any useless techniques? No, but at the same time all technique is useless. You must internalise your methods and transcend technique, until everything is distilled down to core principles and concepts, and there is only reaction.
"Before I studied martial arts a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick.
When I began studying martial arts a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick no longer just a kick.
When I'd studied martial arts for some time, a punch was again just a punch, and a kick just a kick"
Techniques are simply a means of expressing an idea or an energy, and subsequently have myriad applications and endless variations, but at the end of the day it's just a punch.

[bakxierboxer]

This is an interesting and bewildering thread. In some ways it clarifies why certain people hold certain opinions, but in other ways I'm dumbstruck by some people's TCMA experiences. Training in context and training with resistance are indeed key issues, but these have been a part of my training for a very long time..........

.... except for the philosophical thingies at the end.....

[rogue]

We shouldn't think of forms as purely techniques but also as concepts.

Not bad as long as you don't get caught in the never ending concepts trap. I've dumped forms and I'm using more drills and sparring, which has gotten me out of over thinking every technique.

[SevenStar]

Lets say you don't believe a touch could kill. Can we aggree that a concussion:1 a : a stunning, damaging, or shattering effect from a hard blow ; especially : a jarring injury of the brain resulting in disturbance of cerebral function b : a hard blow or collision. This can cause death either delayed or instantly. We know that martial arts forms contain techniques that affect organs and the nervous system this way. We hear everyday about people getting hit in the head or chest by a baseball and dying. It dosen't have to be a hard blow but just hit the right spot. Our bodies can be fragile and masters of the past have put together forms or ways of "hitting the right spots".

how is hitting the air in forms training you to strike such a precise point?

[RonH]

People who use the word "complete system" yet don't practice ANY modern weapon training...knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.

If you know of one that lets you build up a defense against bullets, I'm there. :p


well, one obvious answer is to TEST each technique, figure out which ones work and which don't

You know, lately I've been wondering if context really is the issue or if it just is not thinking creatively enough.

[lkfmdc]

Lets say you don't believe a touch could kill. Can we aggree that a concussion:1 a : a stunning, damaging, or shattering effect from a hard blow ; especially : a jarring injury of the brain resulting in disturbance of cerebral function b : a hard blow or collision. This can cause death either delayed or instantly. We know that martial arts forms contain techniques that affect organs and the nervous system this way. We hear everyday about people getting hit in the head or chest by a baseball and dying. It dosen't have to be a hard blow but just hit the right spot. Our bodies can be fragile and masters of the past have put together forms or ways of "hitting the right spots".

So baseball players are now masters of dim mak? :rolleyes:

I'm old enough to remember the "karate killer" a guy who killed a guy in a bar fight supposedly with a "deadly karate kick"... there was a city wide man hunt and when they actually found the guy, he had NO martial arts training :rolleyes:

IE, yeah, concussion and cerebral hemorages can happen, hadly have anything to do with kung fu, forms or secrets

By the way, those deaths were not from baseballs, they were from soft balls, look into the physics of why.....

[lkfmdc]

If he does counter then I use the Gwa as a bridge and do something else.



Well, but the "do something else" that you were taught, in what context was it taught? What reactions or counters were you taught to expect? What follow ups were you then taught? IE, are you expecting "kung fu" or are you expecting "wild maniac trying to tackle you"?




Now the interesting thing for me here is that as far as I'm concerned Ross uses bridges all the time. I know this because I've got numerous DVDs with him clinch training.



I'm not going to argue with you, it's EXACTLY my point! But the CONTEXT is different. How many people are training their TCMA in that manner?

My wing chung "convert student" finds his wing chun in all the clinching. But the bodies are tighter, the footwork is different. It is not in the "striking" he thought he'd find it




I can throw a Sow Chui with my shoulder (again, Ross does this when he's clinching).



Ah, grand prize. Ben is obviously someone who learned real kung fu, because he can see beyond "shape" and see instead principles. Funny how many people look at that DVD and see no kung fu, yet others see all kung fu

Nah, I'm just a "sell out" :D

Good post BEn

[TenTigers]

Chuen-Sum...um, ball?

[SPJ]

quote:
One, my original querie, which was which techniques or movements in TCMA FORMS do you think are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless.

Two-which training methods are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless

end of quote.

1. continuation moves. such as cross hand or Si Zhi Shou in Yang Tai Chi. single whip in Chen Tai Chi. they are used many times to continue segments of forms into long forms.

moves are modified in order to "continue" into the next sequence of moves.

solutions:

a. break them down and practice each posture or sequence of moves by itself.

--

2. Gong Fa practice; including standing, wooden dummy, hard hitting etc, there are now more better equipments and safer, too.

shorter time, --

--

:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

how is hitting the air in forms training you to strike such a precise point?

Train the mind to think context specific, rather than general.

You can't always have a training partner with you 24-7. Just about every form I've ever seen consists of techniques that are meant to be performed with certain strikes hitting certain parts. I wouldn't slap your pecks, but I might slap your lower abdomen. I wouldn't heel palm you from long range, but I might once I got close enough, and created an opening (I was taught the heel palm is a lot like a boxer's straight). When you shadow box, you don't throw punches to the nether regions. You keep them in the range of where you might hit someone. There are a wider variety of hand forms in CMA, so there are a wider variety of strikes, and manners of activating pressure points.

They will not teach you how to hit specific points. They will teach you what hand techs should be used in which region (a dead-hand slap would be used for lower abdominals, fan-fingers towards the eyes, phoenix eyes to throat, solar plexus, any soft part. You first learn the range. Then you work with a partner to figure out how to hit them on a person. Then, when you're working without a partner, you can focus on the correct physical frame, and play the mental part of knowing where to hit, at what angle, and when to do it, and what reaction you'll get from it.

I don't know why there's this misconception about pressure point striking that people who do it think they're going to knock someone down with one strike. Generally, you're looking to get a specific reaction that will be to your advantage. If you don't get it, well at least you're striking, and you know what works and doesn't on that specific person.

Did you see Cung-Lee land that thrust kick on Fryklund's solar plexus? Knocked the wind right out of him, and Fryklund hunched over and got taken down.

If you press the right buttons, you can sometimes get the reaction you want.

Conversely, I've seen MMA fighters throw blind punches that do no damage. But the good ones know where to hit (ribs, chin, and as low as legality permits).

[Shaolin Wookie]

quote:
One, my original querie, which was which techniques or movements in TCMA FORMS do you think are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless.

Two-which training methods are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless

end of quote.

1. continuation moves. such as cross hand or Si Zhi Shou in Yang Tai Chi. single whip in Chen Tai Chi. they are used many times to continue segments of forms into long forms.

moves are modified in order to "continue" into the next sequence of moves.

solutions:

a. break them down and practice each posture or sequence of moves by itself.

--

2. Gong Fa practice; including standing, wooden dummy, hard hitting etc, there are now more better equipments and safer, too.

shorter time, --

--

:D


Single whip is one of the most useful techniques I've galvanized from tai chi....and I generally don't like internal styles.

[Ben Gash]

I agree, CMA is often taught badly, but that's no reason to write of TCMA. If you're doing good kung fu then you should be doing live work and contact work in modern context.
Again, when you break things down to their foundation principles there's only really up, down, side to side and maybe inside and outside. Without going too much into gate theory (not really my thing, I just do it without thinking about it) I usually employ the rule one: don't get hit methodology. I favour zonal covering bridges rather than accurate intercepts, again movement principles and energies over technique.How do I follow up? That's multi factorial, depending on how I'm standing in relationship to him, wear his "leaks" are and what I'm getting from the bridge.
When I teach I typically teach (for striking defences) against a front hand thrust/heavy jab, a cross with step through, a swinging hook and a swinging hook with step through, and an overhand, because I believe (and experience tells me) that this is what they're most likely to face. Of course sometimes I teach classical CLF attacks, otherwise sparring would be a bit ridiculous. My students are all pretty junior, but as they get more experienced I will start doing more milling/roughhousing drills, where they defend against linked punches and a clinch.
I've always been a big fan of your coaching materials and training methods David, I think they're logical, rational and crucially not a million miles away from my own POV on things.

[SevenStar]

Train the mind to think context specific, rather than general.

You can't always have a training partner with you 24-7. Just about every form I've ever seen consists of techniques that are meant to be performed with certain strikes hitting certain parts. I wouldn't slap your pecks, but I might slap your lower abdomen. I wouldn't heel palm you from long range, but I might once I got close enough, and created an opening (I was taught the heel palm is a lot like a boxer's straight). When you shadow box, you don't throw punches to the nether regions. You keep them in the range of where you might hit someone. There are a wider variety of hand forms in CMA, so there are a wider variety of strikes, and manners of activating pressure points.

They will not teach you how to hit specific points. They will teach you what hand techs should be used in which region (a dead-hand slap would be used for lower abdominals, fan-fingers towards the eyes, phoenix eyes to throat, solar plexus, any soft part. You first learn the range. Then you work with a partner to figure out how to hit them on a person. Then, when you're working without a partner, you can focus on the correct physical frame, and play the mental part of knowing where to hit, at what angle, and when to do it, and what reaction you'll get from it.

I don't know why there's this misconception about pressure point striking that people who do it think they're going to knock someone down with one strike. Generally, you're looking to get a specific reaction that will be to your advantage. If you don't get it, well at least you're striking, and you know what works and doesn't on that specific person.

Did you see Cung-Lee land that thrust kick on Fryklund's solar plexus? Knocked the wind right out of him, and Fryklund hunched over and got taken down.

If you press the right buttons, you can sometimes get the reaction you want.

Conversely, I've seen MMA fighters throw blind punches that do no damage. But the good ones know where to hit (ribs, chin, and as low as legality permits).

I have been saying that for years. pressure points' main use should be to illicit a specific reaction. and when used for that purpose forms are great. my reply was for the guy who said pressure points can be used to kill, and that forms will teach that - it will not. striking air cannot build such precision when talking about hitting the small points that people typically refer to.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Cool. I agree.

[monji112000]

I'm not going to argue with you, it's EXACTLY my point! But the CONTEXT is different. How many people are training their TCMA in that manner?

My wing chung "convert student" finds his wing chun in all the clinching. But the bodies are tighter, the footwork is different. It is not in the "striking" he thought he'd find it


its amazing how many similarities you can take from Chi sao and wrestling (clinching). I have also been told the same applies to BJJ rolling.

Some basic things I have seen that are found in both:

-linear power (ie: pushing and pulling)
- feeling linear power
-redirecting linear power
-covering... ie when you are in this position you are open to being attacked here..
-structure .... learning to use leverage with your body
-sticking or choosing to not stick
-small circles.. small tight circle are fast and powerful
-taking space ... ie cutting someones abilities to do something by for example stepping in and jamming with your body.

Just saying them doesn't mean I can do them. Its just a observation... its a fun sport and a really fun way to train. I don't really know why I didn't do wrestling in High school...

[golden arhat]

I'll take another position, it isn't that the techniques do not work, it is that they work IN CONTEXT

People have trouble believing this, but hopology (the study of the history of weapons) teaches us without any dispute that fighting changes over both location and time. Bare handed fighting also changed over location and time

If we throw out the trash, the bad sifu, the incompetant students, the fake applications, etc... let's look at even the real applications

They are based upon a context; ie an expected response dictated by how people fought at that time

I use gwa choih
I expect you to respond with seung gung wu jih
I will then use Mou Sau and maang fu ha san
I expect you to rspond with Pak Sau
I will then use Haut Kiuh to set up Baahk Hok Tan Soi

I show you this "application" and none of it looks contrived or impossible to "pull off"

I can train my students very hard to they use these techniques and think in these terms

Then they go out in the street, have a confrontation, throw gwa choih and the person on the street doesn't respond with sung gung wu jih, the tackle you!

This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Speak to (if they are still alive) some of the old kung fu men who were in China when western boxing arrived. It confused the living heck out of them. In fact, some techniques we now take for granted were actually devised to fight western boxing

(more)


lol maybe kung fu was just the big fish in a very small and stupid pond lol:p