How important is body structure?

[Ultimatewingchun]

...in the overall scheme of things. From a TOTAL all out fight point of view. No rules, no regs, no boxing gloves, shoes/sneakers stay on, no mats. Anything goes. Real life.

How much will body structure contribute to the final outcome of the fight? (Both are skilled fighters and about the same size and strength).

There's much to be considered here: WILL, SKILL, CONDITIONING, etc.

But how important is body structure, per se?

And if structure is very important to you - then tell us what structure(s) do you personally advocate and why? So this leaves room for the crosstrained fighter to pipe in as well - not just the wing chun-only guys.

And furthermore, what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...this is not just an infomercial for my own personal point of view.

Although I'm sure I'll give one before the thread is over. ;) :)

[iamleaving]

My sifu indicated that a good structure meant good balance, I would say its very important overall.

[Liddel]

Vic, i dont have much time to respond now, but in short....


How much will body structure contribute to the final outcome of the fight?

With equal partners in all other areas, timing, speed and strength(muscle)....
IMO very important. Structure IMO is the most important thing with regard to issuing and recieving force, but also it proves paramount to making the best of a bad situation. With all other things equal, theoretically it would be the deciding factor to the outcome of a fight IME.

Good structure allows you to capitalise on your physical potential and also more importantly IME, allows you to be able to recover in less favourable situations.



But how important is body structure, per se?
Depends on your life view. Structure helps you stand upright. :rolleyes:
In a fighting sence its paramount, no structure, no style.... your rolling dice.



what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?
Well i could bang out a hendrik length post with this question LOL

Something thats mentioned little in these discussions, WILL POWER as you mentioned, IME is the biggest deciding factor to any fight. Will Power can make you more powerfull it can delay the effects of injury....its a freaky aspect of fighting i think of often and not one you can teach or pass on easily or at all...... more later

DREW

[kj]

But how important is body structure, per se?

Pretty important.


And furthermore, what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?

Fearlessness. The person with the greatest advantage is the one who acts with little or no fear including that of shame, dismemberment or death.


Although I'm sure I'll give one before the thread is over. ;) :)

;) :)

Regards,
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree completely about WILL POWER, Drew. It's the single biggest component to the outcome of any fight, imo. And fearlessness is a major component of will power, Kathy Jo. Yeah.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've already given my views on body structure on a different current thread from the physical/technical point of view. (The thread about Alan Orr's body structure, post # 130 on page 9 of the thread).

But here's a more esoteric way of putting it - from a book I have on Zen. I'll do it in two parts. Here's the first:

"Two monks were arguing over a philosophical question as their teacher passed by. They stopped him and asked him to settle their disagreement. The first monk explained his understanding, to which their teacher replied, "You're right." The second monk protested,and made his argument, which was the complete opposite of what the first monk said. The teacher then answered the second monk, saying, "You're right." A third monk who had been listening asked in frustration, "But Master, you tell both of these monks that they are right, when their explanations are contradictory and couldn't possibly both be correct."
The teacher replied, "You're right."

ZEN STORY

....................................

And the second, from the same book:

"The middle path is a difficult path to follow, because it is utterly dynamic. It often requires us to hold two contradictory ideas in our minds at the same time. It means balancing on the razor's edge, and avoiding the temptation of easy answers."

........................

Now apply that to an excerpt from part of the technical answer I gave on the other thread:

"In other words - it (the stance and body structure I use) slightly favors speed of forward movement and forward pressure into his space - with lots of locked hips and a knees-in lower body alignment - and upper body chest pressuring forward when in full blown wing chun centerline facing his COM mode as well - but the emphasis is not on always preserving the wing chun structure to the last (ie.- before a sprawl becomes necessary)...because I believe that the clinch area is where the fight is truly set up to be won or lost -and so I want my options in this range to be as open as possible.

......................


How important is body structure in the overall scheme of things? VERY IMPORTANT.

As long as it's utterly dynamic to changing situations.

EXPECT NOTHING. BE READY FOR ANYTHING. (Catch as catch can)

[No_Know]

A tuck at the chest involving the shoulders. This forms a loch from the pectoralis to the upper-most arms. This creates a bungie-cord effect but in a weave. It stableizes arm movement. It reduces wrenching possibilities.

Also wraps around the solar plexus region for a natural armor, as I think of it.

I like structure in establishing natural body armor--compressed/overlayed muscles or the such.

No_Know

[Matrix]

A tuck at the chest involving the shoulders. This forms a loch from the pectoralis to the upper-most arms. This creates a bungie-cord effect but in a weave. It stableizes arm movement. It reduces wrenching possibilities.

Also wraps around the solar plexus region for a natural armor, as I think of it.

I like structure in establishing natural body armor--compressed/overlayed muscles or the such.
No_Know,

The main problem I have with this, is that it is strictly upper-body focused and static positions. Body Structure, IMO, is more about body-unity and coordinated movement.

[WingTsun20]

Body structure is very important!
Especially for the transfer of energy from the ground through the joints!

[t_niehoff]

Body structure is very important!
Especially for the transfer of energy from the ground through the joints!

"Energy" -- unless you are talking about natural gas or oil -- doesn't come "from the ground" and doesn't move "through the joints."

[k gledhill]

basic physics = equal & opposite reactions.
I drive my leg into the ground [ presumably its solid:D] with [for arguments sake] 900lbs
of force....I then structure my body with knees in to direct the force into my hips from the heels ...I then place my hips forward of my heels so the force is directed up and forward from the ground....I keep my torso vertical and shoulders square so I can deliver the same force out of each arm while attacking...Simply angling and facing a given line of attack relative to an incoming attack....I maintain my elbows inside a certain area to harness the said 900lbs of force as I attack and achieve a simple yet genious ability to both defend and attack witth nothing more than structured placement of my arms relative to a centerline ......I then train to maintain low arm/elbow positions so I dont lose the force to a 'lever' at the shoulders...I then attempt to train this force to be available in every action I take , simply through timing and structure of an assault . I incorporate arm exercises to develop the correct angles and avoid levers in motion with a live partner[ dead partner bad] we deliver alternating lines of force along gates defined by our forearms inside outside..hi..lo..
we move according to the force eminated from the gound in a manner that we avoid the 900lbs of directed force and counter it within the confines of space we have decided is needed to deliver OUR 900lbs of force in the instant we are attacked ....thereby avoiding yet being able to STOP the 900lbs of force from continuing to persue us....
maintaining stucture throughout this simple scenario is quite hard and takes some coaching to maintain lines of force during a violent engagemnet that will attempt to throw us off balance with certain contact points along our arms. When we touch a force we have to be structured not ony to deliver it back but to simultaneously redirect the incoming force laterally off our attacking counterlines...ergo toes in to turn the hip joint into a supporting position for delivering and supporting our bong,pak, jut's jum tans etc...So to deliver sharp ging dispalcing force of the 900lb line coming at us we need short sharp shocking bong's , paks etc.. simply to clear a thin channel [ or wide river depending on the otherguys structure :D] as the rear hand [vu] delivers the good news:D
I would say structure is 'everything' unless you doing the 'blob' style aka octopus .sounds like a wwf wrestler :D
We shuffle this 900lbs by sliding heels ->heels-> in 3 inch increments because as soon as one heel /toes the force is gone , to big a step and the force becomes a sequence of short burst rather than a flatline of 900lbs force delivered through whatever arm I need for as long as I need it through endurance training to maintain my elbows in [slt]

SLT is the structure Chum Kil is the development of force and making it function you need to combine the 2 ideas into a fighting bubble, a moving platform of structure. Many hit with the force of the arms alone at incorrect distances to harness the force of the lower body...this is simply a overextended lever [arm] completely devoid of unity with the lower body, reaching hits [tag] . the system needs close proximity to simply deliver the heavy shot capable of stopping an attack with one 900lb punch ..good boxing coaches can train elbow in for this reasonto harness the body .

Structure is a systematic process we train in doing vt...systematic addition of new thinking ...systematic process of development...of a simple idea...maintained throughout the whole SYSTEM...thats why we arent a style of tan arm or look a t my bong...its all about hitting the guy asap with that 900lb shot and not wasting ones energy flailing away in wasted motion...I stay with what comes because I cant delver 900lbs of force going backwards :D but I can if I time it so its delvered at a 15 degree angle relative to a...this is were I leave you for more coffee

Seung ma>Xtoi ma .
inch punching is simply a test of ground 2 fist unity and structure...
its not how fast the punches are but what each individual punch has in it, I learned in a club hallway or 2 that simply hitting aguy really fast only makes them angry :D learn before you use it or you will learn as your using it ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah, blah, blah, blah, but "the force" or "the energy" does not come from, and is certainly not "emanated" from, the ground, nor does it "flow" through our bodies. That is not an accurate description of what is going on (I guess in their view when I do a military press that "the energy emanates from the ground" and "flows through my body" to cause the weight to lift. ;) ). And in my view people who speak in these terms must not have a clue as to what is really going on -- or they wouldn't speak in those terms.

Body structure/mechanics, at least as I use the term, is not "quite hard" or difficult to learn or develop; it's actually, IME, a fairly simple skill to teach (if the teacher can do it well) and develop (once you learn it).

[sihing]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

Exactly. I don't know about disregarding it, depends if you want to pass it along to others, but the idea is not to get stuck in that phase of the training.

Regarding structure, it also changes depending on the circumstances or "environment" we are in. A building has to have a soild earth foundation below the built foundation to be stable. This is not guaranteed when you are fighting, as you can be stable on a nice clean level concrete floor, but when you are put on the grass just after a rain storm or a ice covered parking lot, that can change everything. Luckily the environment will also effect your opponent, so it's even regarding that variable. The thing I like about the WC concept of it, is that it is efficient and does not require alot of larger movements to work. There's no dancin around when using the ideas properly.

James

[t_niehoff]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

There is in my view no such thing as body structure since, as you correctly point out, everything has to be dynamic. What we are really talking about here is how to use your body, which includes the limbs, to do certain things optimally. The unfortunate thing is - and once again you are correct - that the TMAs, WCK included, teach these things in a fixed/static manner (even the term "body structure" embodies this view). But the reality is they are not fixed or static: they are living, moving, dynamic processes/actions. In other words, skills. And this is why, in my view, the traditional training is flawed -- you are trying to teach something inherently dynamic and adaptable, a skill, using fixed/static structures -- and that way of teaching doesn't typically produce good results (very few people ever make the shift; the training locks them into that fixed/static mindset). For example, people talk about the "structure" of a tan sao. There is no structure to a tan sao, just as there is no "structure" to throwing a ball.

[sihing]

Yeah, blah, blah, blah, but "the force" or "the energy" does not come from, and is certainly not "emanated" from, the ground, nor does it "flow" through our bodies. That is not an accurate description of what is going on (I guess in their view when I do a military press that "the energy emanates from the ground" and "flows through my body" to cause the weight to lift. ;) ). And in my view people who speak in these terms must not have a clue as to what is really going on -- or they wouldn't speak in those terms.

Body structure/mechanics, at least as I use the term, is not "quite hard" or difficult to learn or develop; it's actually, IME, a fairly simple skill to teach (if the teacher can do it well) and develop (once you learn it).

Your body generates the power, not the "ground". Connection to the ground gives you the stability to transfer the generated power of your strike into the opponent, rather than losing it on contact.

There's a whole lot of things happening I believe in the process of it all, not just the one fact that you are "connected" to the ground. Power coming from the ground IMO is just an expression used to describe the method, and not meant to be taken literally like one is gathering chi from the earth and transmitting it through your fists or palms :)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that sometimes people forget that, pretty much any movement starts at the core of your body -waist and hips- then it goes to the ground where it "rebounds", comes back up and etc, etc.

The energy starts with US, in our core, we use the ground to direct it.
Of course the ground is not needed, but it does help.
One can strike while in the water floating, I know I have done it, but even then there is some resistence from the water.

Never tried it while floating in the air * makes mental note to do so next time he goes sky diving *

[t_niehoff]

Your body generates the power, not the "ground". Connection to the ground gives you the stability to transfer the generated power of your strike into the opponent, rather than losing it on contact.


Yes, our body does generate the power and contact with the ground can be a factor in that in a number of ways.



There's a whole lot of things happening I believe in the process of it all, not just the one fact that you are "connected" to the ground.


Agreed.



Power coming from the ground IMO is just an expression used to describe the method, and not meant to be taken literally like one is gathering chi from the earth and transmitting it through your fists or palms :)

James

Yes, it is an expression - one that some seem to take literally (force emanates from the ground) - but not a particularly good one. And, I think it is "rooted" (pardon the pun) in a certain world view of the traditional asian culture (that didn't understand what was really going on). Speaking that way, and in those terms, doesn't faciliate understanding in my view; just the opposite, it obfuscates.

[t_niehoff]

I think that sometimes people forget that, pretty much any movement starts at the core of your body -waist and hips- then it goes to the ground where it "rebounds", comes back up and etc, etc.

The energy starts with US, in our core, we use the ground to direct it.
Of course the ground is not needed, but it does help.
One can strike while in the water floating, I know I have done it, but even then there is some resistence from the water.

Never tried it while floating in the air * makes mental note to do so next time he goes sky diving *

I don't think it useful (as it is not correct) to say that "energy" starts anywhere -- what you are talking about is movement. Lots of movement does not begin wtih the core (I'm typing right now and my core isn't involved at all!). I think what you mean is that the powerful movement of the whole body typically begins with the core, and I agree. The analysis into "rebound", "coming back up", etc. -- none of which is really true -- once again isn't necessary or helpful. People develop power in all sorts of physical activities, sports for example, without this sort of view.

[kung fu fighter]

A tuck at the chest involving the shoulders. This forms a loch from the pectoralis to the upper-most arms. This creates a bungie-cord effect but in a weave. It stableizes arm movement. It reduces wrenching possibilities.

Also wraps around the solar plexus region for a natural armor, as I think of it.

I like structure in establishing natural body armor--compressed/overlayed muscles or the such.

No_Know


I completely agree with the above, it's the secret to alive wing chun!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think it useful (as it is not correct) to say that "energy" starts anywhere -- what you are talking about is movement. Lots of movement does not begin wtih the core (I'm typing right now and my core isn't involved at all!). I think what you mean is that the powerful movement of the whole body typically begins with the core, and I agree. The analysis into "rebound", "coming back up", etc. -- none of which is really true -- once again isn't necessary or helpful. People develop power in all sorts of physical activities, sports for example, without this sort of view.

You have to re-read my post within the CONTEXT of this discussion.
I said movement, I also said MOST and since this is a discusssion about Martial arts related movements, your typing-fu is irrelevant ;).
For every action there is a reaction, what do you produce when you move?
Energy, be it momentum, be it impulse, whatever.
To say that there is no energy is not correct.

[t_niehoff]

It is simply not useful to think in these terms. When I throw a ball, for example, it really doesn't help to be concerned about "for every action there is a reaction" or that my movement produces "energy". This is pseudo-intellectual BS IMO.

[AndrewS]

Terence writes:


There is in my view no such thing as body structure since, as you correctly point out, everything has to be dynamic. What we are really talking about here is how to use your body, which includes the limbs, to do certain things optimally. The unfortunate thing is - and once again you are correct - that the TMAs, WCK included, teach these things in a fixed/static manner (even the term "body structure" embodies this view). But the reality is they are not fixed or static: they are living, moving, dynamic processes/actions. In other words, skills.

Static loading to teach and improve efficiency of a type of motion is useful with that range of motion, as is loading within a range of motion. Both can be used to strengthen a kinetic chain and improve the efficiency (strength, speed-strength, and strength-speed) of the motor programs utilizing that kinetic chain.

IMO, maintaining 'structure' in application, in say, driving someone back in clinch without pressing your balance forward in such a way as to make being thrown easy, is cultivating a habit of kinesthetic awareness using a variety of constantly changing kinetic chains and motor programs. By way of example, if you're taking pressure and can move behind that pressure (lowering your level, changing feet, moving off, etc.) prior to shedding said pressure you're not using one just one path or program, but rather shifting through several while maintaining an awareness of body use.

People trying to learn to be mighty in a limited range of static situations will never cultivate this. Surfers, skateboarders, and guys who like to stay standing in mosh pits pick it up pretty naturally.

Andrew

P.S. To me, this is kwan.

[k gledhill]

terence
the whole idea is to make it moving & dynamic etc...taking structure and showing it chum kil...movement ... how to move in a dynamic freeflowing manner while executing the concepts/tactics. How to generate force from our own body mechanics /structures relative to a centerline and an attacking line of force.
I have students who learn better by being shown " just throw the ball" but show them the break down for better execution etc... and its in one ear and out the other...
others follow the system with the 'j t t ball' added to show whats the simple goal....if you add a game around throw the ball and a whole new thinking comes into play ...reality

simple stuff. :D

[anerlich]

People trying to learn to be mighty in a limited range of static situations will never cultivate this. Surfers, skateboarders, and guys who like to stay standing in mosh pits pick it up pretty naturally.


As usual, AndrewS hits it on the head.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Yeah, blah, blah, blah, but "the force" or "the energy" does not come from, and is certainly not "emanated" from, the ground, nor does it "flow" through our bodies. That is not an accurate description of what is going on."


***AND THIS IS not an accurate description either. Energy does not come from the ground, per se....but one can use the ground to help generate lots of force (energy in motion).

And energy can (and does) "flow" through our bodies - for chi, ki, prana, etc. is real. Internal power. And when conjoined with "external" power (muscular, kinetic, and otherwise) - then you really have something formidable. Look upon the external aspects of energy, power, force (ie.- the body muscles, nerves, etc.) as the pipe system (which has several layers of it's own) through which internal energy can flow.

But the real issue I tried to address on the initial post is the external body structure itself - and the role it plays in the overall scheme of things when fighting.

So "body structure" does exist, and should be cultivated. And then put into dynamic motion, as sanjuro stated it so well. And it's not a question of "forgetting" about it; but rather, don't focus on it once you develop it - just use it while in motion..

God. Semantics...:rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

P. S. - Nice post, AndrewS.

[t_niehoff]

. . . . a whole new thinking comes into play ...reality

simple stuff. :D

In my view it is only common sense to begin with reality, not to work your way up to it.

[t_niehoff]

Static loading to teach and improve efficiency of a type of motion is useful with that range of motion, as is loading within a range of motion. Both can be used to strengthen a kinetic chain and improve the efficiency (strength, speed-strength, and strength-speed) of the motor programs utilizing that kinetic chain.


Yes, I understand this, and that's perfectly reasonable *if* you are doing this sort of training along with the underlying dynamic activity (motor programs) itself. If not, then it leads to a number of problems, like some of the things we've been discussing here.



IMO, maintaining 'structure' in application, in say, driving someone back in clinch without pressing your balance forward in such a way as to make being thrown easy, is cultivating a habit of kinesthetic awareness using a variety of constantly changing kinetic chains and motor programs. By way of example, if you're taking pressure and can move behind that pressure (lowering your level, changing feet, moving off, etc.) prior to shedding said pressure you're not using one just one path or program, but rather shifting through several while maintaining an awareness of body use.


In my view, when you drive someone back as you describe, you are not "maintaining 'structure'", you are using your body to actively do something. To me, it's like when you push a stalled automobile: there is a certain way (or ways) of using your body to do that optimally, i.e., body mechanics. To think of it in terms of "mainitaining structure" or that you are using "body structure" just isn't a good description of what is really going on (similarly, it wouldn't make good sense to call staying on a surf board maintaining structure).



People trying to learn to be mighty in a limited range of static situations will never cultivate this. Surfers, skateboarders, and guys who like to stay standing in mosh pits pick it up pretty naturally.

Andrew

P.S. To me, this is kwan.

The body mechanics of staying on a surfboard are not the same as those in WCK (or any fighting method for that matter). But I do agree they are similar in that both involve active, dynamic whole-body mechanics that cannot be learned nor developed through "a limited range of static situations" but need to be learned and developed by doing those mechanics in the activity itself.

Moreover, I think that they also share another common element: the basis of those mechanics is feeling (body feel, feeling what is going on with the environment, adjusting on the fly, etc.).

[chusauli]

Wow, there may be hope for WCK after all! :)

All of this talk of body structure is an effort in expressing and chunking up the process of what is actually happening on the skilled, so that it may be desseminated to a wider audience. I had the opportunity to model many skilled WCK people in my life, and it was silly of people to say I got this or that from someone - it was the process of describing their skill I was after so I could impart it to myself personally or my students in a simple to understand way.

The reality is that people are skilled and how does one get that skill in a novice's body...

Once you have that skill, all the talk is irrelevant.

In the 19th century, a famous doctor began a lecture of the human body, and suggested everything he said was made up - it was just a way of describing a process - the body simply does.

So it is the same with "body structure".

But I will say if you don't have it (i.e. Skill) - you'd better get it. And if you can't stand upon a light pressure on your chest, you really have little skill in this area. Talk is cheap, skill speaks volumes.

Best regards,

Robert Chu
chusauli@hotmail.com

[t_niehoff]

And energy can (and does) "flow" through our bodies - for chi, ki, prana, etc. is real. Internal power. And when conjoined with "external" power (muscular, kinetic, and otherwise) - then you really have something formidable. Look upon the external aspects of energy, power, force (ie.- the body muscles, nerves, etc.) as the pipe system (which has several layers of it's own) through which internal energy can flow.


Chi is a metaphor, so in that sense it is real (a real metaphor). But it is not a real physical "energy" or phenomena, no more than fairy dust is real. ;) Things in the physical world that are real can be objectively detected, measured, etc. -- metaphors and fantasies cannot. It is not surprising that ancient cultures, not understanding how the world really worked, developed ideas to try and make sense of things. Chi, prana, ki, etc. is one of those notions. Just like at one time many people believed in fairies too. But the utter lack of evidence for both along with our better understanding of how the universe really works (which contradicts the possiblility of chi or fairies) has proved these things don't exist. Yet, not surprisingly, belief remains strong even in the face of reality.



But the real issue I tried to address on the initial post is the external body structure itself - and the role it plays in the overall scheme of things when fighting.

So "body structure" does exist, and should be cultivated. And then put into dynamic motion, as sanjuro stated it so well. And it's not a question of "forgetting" about it; but rather, don't focus on it once you develop it - just use it while in motion..


Body structure (there is no external vs. internal structure since our body is our body, both on the inside and out!) is a 'snapshot' of our body in action, in motion, doing something. That's all. You can take a snapshot of someone throwing a ball, and try to mimic that "structure" but it won't get you anywhere -- and to say to put that 'structure' into action, misses the point: there are different ways of using our body (body structure or body mechanics) to do different things (tasks) well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You hear that, Robert?

One of your old students thinks there's no such thing as chi. You're a doctor of Chinese medicine. Straighten this guy out, will ya?

In the meantime, I'll just IGNORE him. :D :cool:

[YungChun]

Since no one, not even Terence, can prove a negative--prove that something <does not> exist...

AND since any reputable scientist will readily admit that what we know is minute compared to what we still have to learn, about ourselves and the universe;

It can be said with near scientific certainty that Chi might well exist... :)

[AndrewS]

Terence writes:

In my view, when you drive someone back as you describe, you are not "maintaining 'structure'", you are using your body to actively do something. To me, it's like when you push a stalled automobile: there is a certain way (or ways) of using your body to do that optimally, i.e., body mechanics.


Maintaining and using structure? My point is that 'structure' is a frozen snapshot of an active process, and that to speak of this type of body use in the abscence of the body being used leads to certain fallacies. Hence, an intent (kinesthetic program) must be superimposed on the body- peng, sung, six-direction force, balance, whatever, and different programs are recruited to support that intent (just as you switch kinetic chains being used from leg to leg and arm to arm as you change feet pushing a car).


To think of it in terms of "mainitaining structure" or that you are using "body structure" just isn't a good description of what is really going on (similarly, it wouldn't make good sense to call staying on a surf board maintaining structure).

Actually, the surfboard example is a particularly good one. On a surfboard, the athlete attempts to maintain erect posture against gravity- skeletal alignment under and over the CoG- under 'unstable circumstances' requiring recruitment of multiple means of stabilization- you can't just brace the abs, set the hips, flex the knees, and lock the ankles and hope to stay moving- everything must adapt.

Hey Robert,

I'm not sure talk is ever a good sign for WCK. ;-)

Good to hear from you.

Andrew

[chusauli]

Victor,

We may call it Chi or Qi, but it may not really exist. It is a metaphorical word for many different processes of the body. I've often told Terence that. There are so many kinds of Qi as well.

For example, there is Wei Qi (Protective Qi) which is a protective field around our body. If you look at it from a scientific paradigm, it might just be a by-product of digestion and metabolism (i.e. body heat). To really say Wei Qi = immunity system, does it also mean the body's relative alkalinity/acidity, white blood cell count, T cells? Externally, does it take into account the symbiotic relation with the stapphococus or other bacteria? Does that mean it is also with regards to cilia externally and internally? I have not yet reconciled both systems of thought.

The ancient Chinese didn't know, so they called it "Wei Qi". In just describing a relatively simple thing, how do we equate all of this? So Terence is both right and wrong, in a sense.

As for me, I do Chinese medicine all day and my patients get better. I'm happy with that. All the rest is for researchers and those who wish to breakdown the paradigm further. Or for lawyers and others who like to argue. :) Lawyers are the ones who argue the meaning of written words and stack them to their clients favor, don't take them too seriously - they are wordsmiths and kings of semantics. But all in all, Terence is a great guy. Even though he is a lawyer! ;)

As for WCK, we don't shoot people with Qi energy. (And certainly I am not saying you said that at all.) We hit them with Ging! This is a "pathway of power" so to speak, and that is basically this "structure", "body alignment", "skill set" we are looking for. I've tried many years bridging east and west and finding analogies which describe it. But there is no denying it when you've got it.

Peace man! All is cool! We are all family!

Take care!

Best regards,

[YungChun]

Great example with the surfboard..

"Structure" to me is just a word used to explain the use of WCK Mechanics and how to apply/train these mechanics and energy, via a conceptual model--WCK Concepts--in order to deliver WCK tools, weapons and otherwise mass destruction to the enemy..

What’s the BFD?

[chusauli]

Victor,

We may call it Chi or Qi, but it may not really exist. It is a metaphorical word for many different processes of the body. I've often told Terence that. There are so many kinds of Qi as well.

For example, there is Wei Qi (Protective Qi) which is a protective field around our body. If you look at it from a scientific paradigm, it might just be a by-product of digestion and metabolism (i.e. body heat). To really say Wei Qi = immunity system, does it also mean the body's relative alkalinity/acidity, white blood cell count, T cells? Externally, does it take into account the symbiotic relation with the stapphococus or other bacteria? Does that mean it is also with regards to cilia externally and internally? I have not yet reconciled both systems of thought.

The ancient Chinese didn't know, so they called it "Wei Qi". In just describing a relatively simple thing, how do we equate all of this? So Terence is both right and wrong, in a sense.

As for me, I do Chinese medicine all day and my patients get better. I'm happy with that. All the rest is for researchers and those who wish to breakdown the paradigm further. Or for lawyers and others who like to argue. :) Lawyers are the ones who argue the meaning of written words and stack them to their clients favor, don't take them too seriously - they are wordsmiths and kings of semantics. But all in all, Terence is a great guy. Even though he is a lawyer! ;)

As for WCK, we don't shoot people with Qi energy. (And certainly I am not saying you said that at all.) We hit them with Ging! This is a "pathway of power" so to speak, and that is basically this "structure", "body alignment", "skill set" we are looking for. I've tried many years bridging east and west and finding analogies which describe it. But there is no denying it when you've got it.

Peace man! All is cool! We are all family!

Take care!

Best regards,

[AmanuJRY]

In quantum physics, it's not about weather something can or can't happen...everything has a level of probability.

Terrence has a level of probability that he will find evedence to dis-prove chi, but I believe there is a greater level of probability that chi exsists.;):cool:

[chusauli]

Great example with the surfboard..

"Structure" to me is just a word used to explain the use of WCK Mechanics and how to apply/train these mechanics and energy, via a conceptual model--WCK Concepts--in order to deliver WCK tools, weapons and otherwise mass destruction to the enemy..

What’s the BFD?


Hi Jim,

I guess the BFD is most people stand hunched over like hunchbacks, knees knocked in, and chests sunken in and have no idea how the body powers the tools in WCK, and simply strike with the strength of their arms alone. That is a joke.

And then they're told to copy the "form" as this is the "traditional way", with no idea of the actual function. And then it perpetuates. Then you see WCK = a bunch of suckey fighters who talk big and can't back up their stuff and can't fight their way out of a paper bag. :eek: Instead of WCK = a bunch of fighters who can kick ass and have a lot of power. :)

Quality control is a major issue in this art and most arts.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

Hey Robert,

I'm not sure talk is ever a good sign for WCK. ;-)

Good to hear from you.

Andrew[/QUOTE]



Andrew,

You're right! Talk just leads to trouble! We should all just smile and have tea. :)

Best regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

Robert,

What we are referring to here on this thread as 'chi' is a part of an overall umbrella of, for lack of a better word, what we can call 'esoteric' knowledge; the study of which I've been involved in for many decades now - and in various venues.

But rather than get into a big discussion/debate about it which would require lots of lengthy posts and references - let me just leave you with this line of thought for now:

The body is moved in martial arts (as just one example) though the INTENT of the person involved. (WILL is another way of saying this). That intent, ie.- concentrated thought power fueled dy desire, translates into the actual physical movement of the muscles, joints, etc.

But what is the medium through which this can happen?

ENERGY.

Electro-magnetic energy that can be very subtle at times. Because the body uses energy AT VARIOUS LEVELS OF VIBRATION. And the same way that electricity is a form of energy that can be used to turn on the lamp by your bed - so there is an electrical-magnetic energy that travels through the body - and that moves the body at WILL.

(As well as unconsciously, ie.- the beating of your heart. Done by the 'will' of the lower instinctual mind).

But through certain thought processes (coupled with breathing and visualization formats)...great amounts of energy can he harnessed and focussed AT WILL to certain points in the body - and be made to LOAD certain gateways of the body with large amounts of unseen force (ie.- to the arms, fists, the foot, etc.)...that go beyond what one would normally attribute to one's physical makeup. And it can be done on a regular basis.

But there are also more infrequent examples of this phenomena that can be instinctual in a crisis.

Have you ever read or heard of any accounts of women actually being able to lift a car (or some other very heavy object) in order to save their child who's been pinned underneath? Have you ever personally been able to do something physical in an emergency situation that you previously didn't know "you had the strength" to do?

Where did that come from?

And where does the boxer's energy come from?

This is all due to what some refer to as the LIFE FORCE. Others have referred to it as chi, ki, prana, etc. But in martial arts the ability to use this INTERNAL force on a regular basis is possible.

THOUGHT>ENERGY>MATTER.

An invisible electro-magnetic energy that travels through the body, ie.- through the meridians (or passage ways) is one way of describing it.

[t_niehoff]

Since no one, not even Terence, can prove a negative--prove that something <does not> exist...


That's not exactly true -- we can say with absolute certainly lots of negatives, especially that certain things don't exist. For example, when we know, at least to a certain degree of certainty, how some things do work, we know how they don't. Understanding the physical laws (physics) of energy will tell you chi doesn't exist; understanding how the human body moves (from a cellualr to a biomechanical level) tells you chi is not involved.



AND since any reputable scientist will readily admit that what we know is minute compared to what we still have to learn, about ourselves and the universe;

It can be said with near scientific certainty that Chi might well exist... :)

Fallacious reasoning (not surprising, since this is a WCK forum). Of course, we don't know everything, and we do have much to learn. But not knowing everything doesn't mean anything is posssible. Learning not only tells us what things are possible, but what things are not.

[YungChun]

Hello Mr. Chu



I guess the BFD is most people stand hunched over like hunchbacks, knees knocked in, and chests sunken in and have no idea how the body powers the tools in WCK, and simply strike with the strength of their arms alone. That is a joke.

No question--that's true....

I count myself fortunate to have trained with folks who were always talking about how to incorporate the whole body into an aligned unit--for body power...

And that an aligned body is stronger than a non-aligned body... Some folks seem to think otherwise.. and some others will agree but not be able to really apply it.


Quality control is a major issue in this art and most arts.

No question about it.. But that's the way it was passed, in this, and in other systems as well. Some get more or less depending on who is teaching and who is learning.. Human nature it would seem.

[YungChun]

That's not exactly true -- we can say with absolute certainly lots of negatives, especially that certain things don't exist. For example, when we know, at least to a certain degree of certainty, how some things do work, we know how they don't. Understanding the physical laws (physics) of energy will tell you chi doesn't exist; understanding how the human body moves (from a cellualr to a biomechanical level) tells you chi is not involved.



Fallacious reasoning (not surprising, since this is a WCK forum). Of course, we don't know everything, and we do have much to learn. But not knowing everything doesn't mean anything is posssible. Learning not only tells us what things are possible, but what things are not.
It's a joke Terence.. You know..hihihihihi... Like that... Litigators are allowed to giggle or at least crack a smile no?

Nevertheless no one can yet prove IMO that Chi doesn't exist..

Not sure about Fairy's though...:)

[YungChun]

Have you ever read or heard of any accounts of women actually being able to lift a car (or some other very heavy object) in order to save their child who's been pinned underneath? Have you ever personally been able to do something physical in an emergency situation that you previously didn't know "you had the strength" to do?

Where did that come from?

And where does the boxer's energy come from?

This is all due to what some refer to as the LIFE FORCE. Others have referred to it as chi, ki, prana, etc. But in martial arts the ability to use this INTERNAL force on a regular basis is possible.

They'll <TN> argue that it's simply an adrenal stress response that changes the body chemistry and how the muscles work....blah blah..

But I have had experiences that seem to go beyond the rational or explainable, often when under high stress.. Even just in sparring I have felt things. . When you are in the moment really deeply.. Sometimes when I get hit...

At times I have felt something almost like it was projecting outward toward my opponent and I know I felt it and the funny thing is that my partner felt it, or felt something as well… Almost like casting aside the self and projecting it out to the opponent.... Hard to explain..

It changes the way you feel, think and perform AND seemingly how the opponent perceives you as well.. It feels powerful..

Western Sciences folks can explain this stuff any number of ways but the truth is no one really knows much about how these highly complex things we call the mind and body work or what their limits are.

Personally, I don't care what it is, but I'd like to bottle it...

[t_niehoff]

As for me, I do Chinese medicine all day and my patients get better. I'm happy with that. All the rest is for researchers and those who wish to breakdown the paradigm further.


TCM uses the chi metaphor and it is not alone in using metaphors in medicine. Psychoanalysis works too - but in reality there is no such thing as the ego, id, etc. These are metaphors (concepts) to try and explain a process that was not very well understood (and which is still not well understood though we do know a lot more today). Much of the theory of psychoanalysis has been disproved scientifically. Yet, psychoanalysis continues to prove a viable, useful therapy for some people.



Or for lawyers and others who like to argue. :) Lawyers are the ones who argue the meaning of written words and stack them to their clients favor, don't take them too seriously - they are wordsmiths and kings of semantics.


I think it was Noam Chomsky, the celebrated linquist, scholar, and social gadfly, that said "language is a tool for thought; if you debase the language, you debase the thought." My view is that sloppy language is usually a sign of sloppy thought, sloppy thinking. People accused of sloppy thought often fall back on the "semantic" excuse, "oh, he's just being nitpicky with words." No, I'm being nitpicky with ideas.

Thinking is like love-making -- everyone believes they are natually gifted and can do it quite well. ;) But thinking well, IOWS clearly, logically, soundly, deeply, etc. is a skill, and like with any other skill, it helps to give it lots of attention, to have good training in it, lots of "correct" practice, continual corrections, etc. And it has to be constantly exercised to stay in shape. Irrational thought, belief in the reality of irrational things (chi, fairies), etc. are the signs of a flabby mind.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'll be even more specific, Jim...since we're talking about "chi" during class time. William Cheung teaches what he refers to as chi breathing exercises. But forget labels for the moment.

One such exercise requires a sitting, eyes closed position, mouth closed, and with a visualization as you breath in a circular manner - the vid being picturing the inhaling breath moving in through the nostrils and up to the top of the head AS A WHITE LIGHT...and down your back centerline to the dan tien...and up your front-of-the-body centerline as you exhale - and out through the nostrils (thereby completing the circuit)...with the tip of the tongue gently touching the roof of the mouth...

and with the hands, fingers apart, facing each other from just a few inches away...making sure that parallel fingers are aligned in front of the same finger on the other hand (ie.- the thumb directly faces the other thumb)...

and breath/visualize with this "drill" for a few minutes.

Then move one hand up-and-down-and-up-and-down in front of the other hand (the one that's being held stationary).

YOU WILL FEEL WAVES OF ENERGY (chi) flowing from the moving hand to the stationary hand.

Have done this hundreds of times by now. It's real.

The mind (WILL) moved the unseen energy to various parts of the body - and the hands/fingers are especially efficient body conductors of the ENERGY.

[t_niehoff]

It's a joke Terence.. You know..hihihihihi... Like that... Litigators are allowed to giggle or at least crack a smile no?


Use emoticons to let me know you are joking. So many people believe such nonsense, I can't assume when someone says something silly that they are joking. For example, was Jeremy just pullimg our legs when he said "video is an illusion"? ;) (See, I am now joking).



Nevertheless no one can yet prove IMO that Chi doesn't exist..

Not sure about Fairy's though...:)

People will believe what they want to believe despite evidence, logic, etc.

[t_niehoff]

I'll be even more specific, Jim...since we're talking about "chi" during class time. William Chueng teaches what he refers to as chi breathing execises. But forget labels for the moment.

One such exercise require a sitting, eyes closed position, mouth closed, and with a visualization as you breath in a circular manner - the vid being picturing the inhaling breath moving in through the nostrils and up to the top of the head...and down your back centerline to the dan tein...and up your front-of-the-body centerline as you exhale - and out through the nostrils (thereby completing the circuit)...with the tip of the tongue gently touching the roof of the mouth...

and with the hands, fingers apart, facing each other form jusy a few inckes away...making sure that parallel fingers are aligned in front of the same finger on the other hand (ie.- the thumb directly faces the other thumb)...

and breath with this "drill" for a for minutes.

Then mlove one hand up-and-down-and-up-and-down in forn tof the other hand (that is being held stationary).

YOU WILL FEEL WAVES OF ENERGY (chi) flowing into from the moving hand to the stationary hand.

Have done this hundreds of times by now. It's real.

The sensation may be real, but the explanation for the sensation (chi, waves of energy) is not. If there were really "waves of energy" that energy could be detected with objective devices (as any form of energy can).

[YungChun]

Irrational thought, belief in the reality of irrational things
(chi, fairies), etc. are the signs of a flabby mind.
Well, I think that for many it is not so much a belief in the irrational, rather, an open mind trying to see/understand what is as yet unknown, or not well understood.. the possibilities vs the known quantities... To question common thought and ideas..

They are open and comfortable with *new* ideas or abstract ways of thinking <right brain> they are often artists, creative types, inventors, who can think inside out and outside the box.

They have to power to create the next "reality"--make the "impossible, possible" almost out of thin air..

Whereas others <left brain> are more comfortable working with and organizing, studying that which is already clearly defined and known, masters of what is inside the box...

Both are important for different reasons..

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ah, btw...

You know the practice of doing the first section of SLT very slow - and in particular the really slow moving tan sao with the fingers extended....


:cool: ;)

[t_niehoff]

Well, I think that for many it is not so much a belief in the irrational, rather, an open mind trying to see/understand what is as yet unknown, or not well understood.. the possibilities vs the known quantities... To question common thought and ideas..


People who have irrational beliefs and use magical thinking always use the "open mind" argument (I believe in fairies or whatever because I have an open mind). An open mind means that you are willing to consider evidence (from all "sides"), that you go through the steps necessary to determine now much weight to give that evidence, and base your conclusions on a rational consideration of that evidence.

If chi were real, and could interact with the body (to move it or power it, and could even be felt), it would therefore be detectable with objective measuring devices (as the body is able to detect it). But it's not detectable, and that's because it doesn't exist.

I don't doubt that people have feelings and experiences that they, like you, believe is chi. But having a feeling or experience doesn't prove your explanation for that feeling or experience is correct. It does, however, illuminate how these sorts of things begin -- very likely people in the past had similar feelings or experiences, and tried to explain them as best they could (with their level of knowledge and understanding of how the universe worked), and the metaphor of chi was born. But that's not really what is happening.



They are open and comfortable with *new* ideas or abstract ways of thinking <right brain> they are often artists, creative types, inventors, who can think inside out and outside the box.

They have to power to create the next "reality"--make the "impossible, possible" almost out of thin air..

Whereas others <left brain> are more comfortable working with and organizing, studying that which is already clearly defined and known, masters of what is inside the box...

Both are important for different reasons..

I love how people with irrational beliefs turn to "science" (which they cherrypick) to support their magical thinking! What we are talking about here is chi. It is either real or it is not (a metaphor). Your left/right brain stuff is irrelevant. If it is not real, we should expect to find no objective evidence or it, no way to measure it, no way to detect it, etc. And that's exactly what we do find.

[t_niehoff]

Ah, btw...

You know the practice of doing the first section of SLT very slow - and in particular the really slow moving tan sao with the fingers extended....


:cool: ;)

While you do that, just keep repeating "I do believe in fairies, I do! I do! I do believe in fairies, I do! I do! I do believe in fairies, I do! I do! . . . " to bring Tinkerbell back to life. :)

[YungChun]

I don't doubt that people have feelings and experiences that they, like you, believe is chi.
I have an open mind on the subject.. Ready to learn what I can.. :cool: All you are saying Terence is that Chi--Isn't.. Meanwhile there are revered Sifu who specialize in something, that you insist does not exist..

As of now I have no real opinion on Chi per se--to me it is undefined...

If I was to go out and train in Chi Gung and make a study of Chi for myself I would have a more formed and educated opinion on the matter. If you did the same, I would find your argument more credible.

I have used it as a metaphor in teaching for those who relate to it but in general when discussing WCK techniques I just use the word 'Energy'...

[anerlich]

to bring Tinkerbell back to life.

Did Tinkerbell die?

[Liddel]

Terrence while i may not whoeheartedly believe in chi power and/or an invisable force that we can tap into.....

I do realise the power of the mind and the 'Placebo' effect, which can account for amazing things.
So possibly this power/energy does exsist, in the minds of those that believe.
It may actually even have measurable results..... :eek:

Just out of interest, ever heard Nick diaz's corner yelling 'use that freaky power' during his fights ? :rolleyes:

Im not saying he's special, but at times he seems to have power/forces that far exceed his physical attributes - which may or may not be all in his mind......

Just a semi logical explanation for the unknown.......
(cue lightning and sinister music)
:cool:
DREW