Hung surname--can any Hung Ga people comment?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Hi,


I'm guilty of spending too much time in another section and debating with the Shaolin-Do people which is always fun..but it's too fatiguing and I need to conserve my chi. :D I was hoping to get some feedback on this..

I have heard of some styles of Hung Kuen that are considered "Hung" styles..yet not necessarily Hung Ga..yet at the same time..not the same as Hong Quan(the Northern long fist system-with the forms Da Hong Quan, Siu Hong Quan).

From what I gather..it would seem that the "Hung" name in martial arts in terms of surnames,etc...is more like the surname Smith?

Insofar as I could be "Erasmus Smith" and Gene Ching could be "Gene Smith"(just as an illustration) yet neither of us could be related at all..not a single blood relative. Only common thread is the last name...

So carrying over that analogy to Hung styles..does it then follow for example that you could have 2 "Hung Kuens"..but the only thing they have in common is the first word "Hung"?

I know my explanation is not the best..but I am curious to know what any of you may think. Thank you.

EM

[TenTigers]

Southern Hung systems, whether called Hung-Ga, Hung Kuen, Hungquan, etc are named after Hung Mo-Jue the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty whose reign was ended by the invasion of the Chings. The Northern Hung styles, for the most part, like Dai Hung Kuen and Siu Hung Kuen I believe use the character to mean red, as I have seen it called Big Red Fist. The Hung in Southern Hung-Ga does not mean red, but to stand tall with integrity/righteous.

[Ben Gash]

Dude, we had this conversation with you a week ago :rolleyes:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46905

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Indeed,

But the conversation got hijacked by the Chopsticks and bowl form and whatever else and I asked it again as an independent topic since I thought there might be more than one stance/answer about it.

EM

[Eddie]

in my home language, Erasmus is both a surname as well as a first name. My dad's Second name is Erasmus, and I have a good friend whos surname (last name) is Erasmus.

[hskwarrior]

and as i said in the other thread about the Hung Mun........

many people in southern china that supported the Hung Mun also adopted "hung" into their names as a sign of support.

Now Ten Tigers.......forgive MY ignorance since you know what my style is........is there 2 hung ga's? One predating wong fei hung, then wong fei hung? i think i remember that there was a battle going on about two lineages of the same style.

if so, is there anyone out there teaching hung ga the predated wong fei hung?

much like what goes on in clf.

[hskwarrior]

oh and where is that chop sticks form? was it the CLF one

[The Xia]

and as i said in the other thread about the Hung Mun........

many people in southern china that supported the Hung Mun also adopted "hung" into their names as a sign of support.

Now Ten Tigers.......forgive MY ignorance since you know what my style is........is there 2 hung ga's? One predating wong fei hung, then wong fei hung? i think i remember that there was a battle going on about two lineages of the same style.

if so, is there anyone out there teaching hung ga the predated wong fei hung?

much like what goes on in clf.
This article might help.
http://www.hungkuen.net/article-tangledroots.htm

[TenTigers]

From the little I know, and I am not to be taken as the spokesman for Hung-Ga...
There are many lineages and branches of Hung-Ga, both descending from Wong Fei-Hung as well as those that came from other members of the lineage. There are styles from Leung Guan (Tit Kiu-Saam) Luk Ah-Choy,Hung Hei-Guen, and people who trained with others. In the WFH line, (as far as I know)the three most prominenet are Lam Sai-Wing, Tang-Fung, and Mok Gwei-Lan. I am sure there are many others, as WFH had many students, and with the internet, more doors are being opened than ever before.

[Phacade]

Hung Gar is generally assumed or associated with teachings of Hung Hei Guen that traveled down through Wong Fei Hung, Lam Tsai Wing, and so on. Hung Hei Guen's Tiger/Crane techniques, combined with Wong Fei Hung's Sup Juet Sao (ten killing hands) and bridge hands are commonly thought to be the core of modern Hung Gar. Thats not to say there are are not other Hung schools out there, Hung of course being a common name in China. Still "Hung Kuen" would mean Hung fist or Hung family fist, so one that studies Hung Kuen would be assumed to be studying Hung Gar....but not necessarily.

Clear as mud?

[banditshaw]

Hey Phacade,
Was it through Hung Hei Goon or Luk Ah Choi?
I know that Luk Ah Choi along with his classmate Hung Hei Goon both learned from Gee Sin Sim See. Luk Ah Choi's Father was a Ching who was stationed in Canton and that was probably where the Wong Family learned from. I think it was called just ''Siu Lam'' and the Hung term was fairly a recent(150yrs maybe) addition. Probably because of the ''stand tall with righteousness'' meaning behind it as well as the Surname. I also heard that Hung Hei Goon being a Layman, his name was different and that he adopted the name after learning the Tiger techniques from Gee sin.
Just some random thoughts....it's all subject to debate when getting down to the history, and it's still as clear as mud.:)

[TenTigers]

depending on who you talk to, some lines make no mention of Hung Hei-Guen. As there is no real documentation, we are left with "Traditional History," which is part history, part legend, and part wishful thinking. With MA politics being what they are, we can add in each school's personal agendas as well.
-more mud.

[GeneChing]

JOSEPH PLANTE IS A PLAGIARIST!

Ok, in all fairness, that looks like a mistake on behalf of hungkuen's republication of the piece. I wrote the article that The Xia posted in the link four posts above this one. It was originally published in IKF in January 1999, and republished in CFW's Ultimate Martial Arts Encyclopedia (note: I was never notified about the book reprint, much less compensated for it :mad:). Anyway, I hope hungkuen corrects the error at some point, since credit is all I've gotten out of that article since the countless reprints of it.

But back OT, surnames are always a big issue with China. China just announced an attempt to increase the amount of surnames. It's ironic - typical of China - the world's largest population has the least surnames.


China Mulls More Surnames for Children (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/12/international/i200952D33.DTL#sections)
Tuesday, June 12, 2007
(06-12) 20:09 PDT BEIJING, China (AP) --

China may soon allow double surnames for children, state media reported Tuesday, in a move aimed at ending confusion in a country where most people share just 100 family names.

Under a proposal distributed to police departments around the country by the Ministry of Public Security, parents called Zhou and Zhu would have four options when naming their newborns, the China Daily reported.

Their child's surname could be Zhou, Zhu, Zhouzhu or Zhuzhou.

The newspaper said the reason for the proposal was because the limited number of surnames meant a large number of people end up with the same name.

The Chinese Academy of Sciences has reported that at least 100,000 people in China have the name "Wang Tao", the newspaper said.

In April, a survey reported by Xinhua News Agency said that Wang was the most common surname in China, with about 93 million people sharing the name. That was followed by Li with about 92 million and Zhang with about 87 million.

Officials said about 85 percent of China's 1.3 billion population share about 100 surnames.

Currently, Chinese law says that a newborn can have the surname of either the father or the mother, but does not mention a combined surname.

The newspaper did not give any other details or say when the change would be implemented.

[mantis108]

Personally, Hongquan that is found in Henan, Shanxi, etc, would be derived from Xingquan from the Zhejiang area (old Yue Kingdom during the warring state period). Xingquan along with Fanziquan are 2 pugilistic methods that were adopted into the Ming dynasty military training during the 1500s especially troops that were trained by General Yu Dayou and General Qi Jiguang. It is recorded that there were Shaolin monk troops amongst General Yu's camp. A few monks were reported to have returned to Henan Shaolin to spread the teaching (mainly the staff fighting method). But 50 to 60 years later, the method was again pretty "watered down".

Xingquan and Fanziquan are both known as short hand methods as opposite to Tongbi which is classified as Changquan. I believe that Xingquan has some Fanzi components and it became more famously known as "Luohan". When these short hands methods moved south first reaching Fujian, they became He Fa (crane method) through the Fang Family. I believe that Fang Qiniang had ties to cult organization the White Lotus. Through that connection she might have chanced meeting with undergound insurgence Tiandi Hui's (Heaven and Earth Society) head, Chen Jinnan, who had an alias of Bai He Dao Ren (venerable white crane). The Wu Mui nun that many styles spoke of IMHO is more than likely Fang Qiniang herself. Also the Gee Sin (if there was really such a person just like Wu Mui), is said to have many students and one of them is, Hung Hei Gwon, who in one account is said to be a tea merchant from Fu Zhou, Fujian. This is interesting because Tiger style (Dragon style also) and larger horse stances are found around this region.

Anyway, another important but mostly overlooked student of Gee Sin is Wong Kwan (Wang Kun). He was a Hakka person who had great influences over Lung Ying and BaK Mei (CLC line). It is believe that the modern day LY & BM are derived from his teaching that is known as the old session or Hakka forms. I believe it's possible that Meng Fu Chu Lum (fierce tiger comes out of forrest) is derived from Fujian White Crane's Ye Hu Chu Lin (or night tiger comes out of forrest). Anyway, I digress.

The point basically is that Hung Gar is pretty much derived from Gee Sin's teaching. Gee Sin also believe to be the progenitor of Yong Chun (Weng Chun), Hung Gar (Hung Hei Gwon's line), old village Hung, etc. He or his students has influences in Lung Ying, Bak Mei, and a number of Hakka arts. These styles to varying degree also share one major tenent - Quan wei zhong, Gun wei Shi, Shuang Dao wei Fu Mu.

Fist forms are seed, staff is the teacher and double cleavers are the parents.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[CFT]

What is the big deal with 100,000 people in China having the name "Wang Tao"? I bet there are at least 100,000 "John Smith"s in the USA or UK. Why does the PRC government have to muck around with the language so much? Just encourage more 2-character personal names - that would encourage some creativity.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Gene,


Can you verify if what I heard was true? I either read or was told by someone recently that the Chinese government enacted a rule that the order of Chinese names is to now be reversed???

So for example..GM Leung Shum would be GM Shum Leung? Or GM Chan Poi would now be referred to as GM Poi Chan?

Can you confirm or deny this? It seems rather unusual. Thank you.

EM

[TenTigers]

I haven't heard about orders being reversed, but I did hear that they will be adding new surnames, so people will have names like Wong Rik-Fei-Hung.
(ok, maybe not with Rik;)) using four names rather thhan two-or three. This they feel will make things easier due to the large population and the comonality of their names.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Yes,

My sirname is "Dang He Kik A-s"..the slight Korean sounding tone is just a different dialect :D

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Yes,

My sirname is "Dang He Kik A-s"..the slight Korean sounding tone is just a different dialect :D

That was bad. That was very bad. ;)

[mantis108]

It's pretty sad to see that Chinese lost much of it's heritage including the naming convention. We have a traditional system that used to be quite effective in solving that problem. Chinese likes, or at least used to, to name things in descending order the higher the "power" the first to appear. This is why family name (the household that you belongs to) comes first. Then you are given a one or two character name known only to family and inner circle friends. This first name will not be used in society. When you are out in society (around 20 years old) you will be using the second name which often is like an extention of your first name. If you have a trade or a profession, you will be using your professional name or title, which could be alias related your work. If you belong to other religious or interest groups, you would be given a name by those organization. For example: General Yue Fei

Yue is family name
Fei (to fly) is first name
Peng Ju (airborn like the great eagle) is the second name.
Title is Jiang Jun (General), posthumous title Wu Mu Wang (roughly translated as the king of martial gentility)

This will be documented in the household as well as in the imperial court (because of his merits as a general).

For identification purposes, each person supposedly would have personal seal and/or a seal given by your office.

So any signed document would have your signature, your personal seal and/or your office's seal.

That's how it's done in the old days but now China is so regress that well... There are also talks of abolishing Chinese medicines, Dragon as a symbol and all sort of silly "academic" proposals.

Anyway, this goes to show when a people forgot where they came from, all things go haywire regardless how old the civilization is. :(

Mantis108

[taikordai]

That's how it's done in the old days but now China is so regress that well... There are also talks of abolishing Chinese medicines, Dragon as a symbol and all sort of silly "academic" proposals.

Anyway, this goes to show when a people forgot where they came from, all things go haywire regardless how old the civilization is. :(

Mantis108

and you wonder why we've sunken so deep :eek::eek::eek:

read these posts http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47022