Hung Fa Yi

[r4cy]

I recently finished reading the book "Mastering Kung Fu" of the Hung Fa Yi system. Personally i found it to be a great book and it was quite an aye opener for me historically and technically. Apart from this, does anybody know is there any other book or video from this branch? Thanks

[Ultimatewingchun]

Did you say video?

Ha! Ha! :D

(private joke)

[Liddel]

Why not search Amazon ? if one exists, its bound to be there...

Funny - YongChun a HFY practitioner, is a man of his word and just sent me this book after another thread from earlier in the month....which i appreciate :)

Although i didnt perscribe to much of the material about the history, thier teaching method and application (the little they reveal) i found interesting.

As far as VT goes... No new material, just different packaging.

DREW

[anerlich]

Apart from this, does anybody know is there any other book or video from this branch?

Dude, learn how to search and look through old threads. You'll find all you ever needed to know and more than you ever wanted to know, plus some highly entertaining exchanges of insults.

Actually, you'll probably have started another of the latter with your thread ;)

[JPinAZ]

I recently finished reading the book "Mastering Kung Fu" of the Hung Fa Yi system. Personally i found it to be a great book and it was quite an aye opener for me historically and technically. Apart from this, does anybody know is there any other book or video from this branch? Thanks

Hello,

Good to hear you enjoyed the book and found it useful. I also feel there is a great amount of information in this book, which as I understand, is to be an intorduction to the system.

At the moment, this is the only book written about HFY. And to date, there are no videos. I believe future books are either already in the works, or will be coming out sometime. I do know there have been articles written in several magazines, and more informations/articles on the main website: http://www.hungfakwoon.com/
And some forums you can find a lot more information: http://www.hfy108.com/

As far as videos: There are none at this time. To my understanding, since HFY has only come out to the public recently in the last 10 years, the primary focus of the HFY headquarters is teaching the art to it's students and setting up a way to preserve the system. There are a few threads here that cover the topic of 'HFY videos'. Again, this is just my understanding as a student on the subject/

If you are interested in seeing more, there are many school in areas around the country. A trip to one of the scools or clubs, or catching a workshop/seminar would be a great way to get some hands-on first-hand experience! Where abouts do you live?

I hope this helps, and look forward to further dialog with you!

Regards,

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

Jonathan,

Is Gee writing these books or are others?

[JPinAZ]

T,

Do you mean MKF, or any future books that are either in the works or planned for?
If you are referring to anything new, I really don't know. I would assume either the previous writters of MFK, or someone else, but I am pretty sure that GM Garrett Gee approves and oversees anything written involving HFY and it's safe to assume he would be one of the authors.

If you mean MKF, then there are three authors: Garrett Gee, Benny Meng, and Richard Loewenhagen

haha, not sure if I should ask, but - why do you ask?

Jonathan

[passing_through]

As Jonathan mentioned about the topic of videos, here’s something else to add to the discussion:

When it comes to the HFY system, we really have a different approach than what you tend to see in the martial arts community and a different mindset about how to teach, present, and preserve our family’s traditions.

For example, look at Chi Sau. Wing Chun is known for having Taan, Bong, Fuk in Chi Sau but HFY Chi Sau is more than just a platform and sequence for teaching Taan, Bong, Fuk and certain reactions to attack the other person. Instead, we look at Taan, Bong, Fuk as just one expression of structure in time and space - and there is also energy cultivation coming from the muscles, tendons, and bones as well as application based on Deui Ying and Jeui Ying… and that’s only one season in the nature of Chi Sau training. Plus we have Kiu Sau Chi Sau, Chi Kiu Chi Sau, and Ji N Kiu Chi Sau… each with their own timeframes, natures, and seasons. The system is preserved and communicated through an approach called Hau Chyun San Sau which maintains a tradition of direct interaction.

This isn’t to say that putting videos out to the general public is a good idea or a bad idea. Instead, we see videos as an illusion because the learning process of HFY is a dynamic, living approach - when you try to capture something alive, you end up with something dead, instead.

So if you really want to understand what HFY has to say about things, you have to put yourself into actual, direct experience instead of looking from the outside and trying to understand. Again, this isn’t to say that what others do is wrong; it’s just that what we do is what we do.

Makes sense? To get more information, you can check out hfy108.com.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[t_niehoff]

As Jonathan mentioned about the topic of videos, here’s something else to add to the discussion:

When it comes to the HFY system, we really have a different approach than what you tend to see in the martial arts community and a different mindset about how to teach, present, and preserve our family’s traditions.

For example, look at Chi Sau. Wing Chun is known for having Taan, Bong, Fuk in Chi Sau but HFY Chi Sau is more than just a platform and sequence for teaching Taan, Bong, Fuk and certain reactions to attack the other person. Instead, we look at Taan, Bong, Fuk as just one expression of structure in time and space - and there is also energy cultivation coming from the muscles, tendons, and bones as well as application based on Deui Ying and Jeui Ying… and that’s only one season in the nature of Chi Sau training. Plus we have Kiu Sau Chi Sau, Chi Kiu Chi Sau, and Ji N Kiu Chi Sau… each with their own timeframes, natures, and seasons. The system is preserved and communicated through an approach called Hau Chyun San Sau which maintains a tradition of direct interaction.

This isn’t to say that putting videos out to the general public is a good idea or a bad idea. Instead, we see videos as an illusion because the learning process of HFY is a dynamic, living approach - when you try to capture something alive, you end up with something dead, instead.

So if you really want to understand what HFY has to say about things, you have to put yourself into actual, direct experience instead of looking from the outside and trying to understand. Again, this isn’t to say that what others do is wrong; it’s just that what we do is what we do.

Makes sense? To get more information, you can check out hfy108.com.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

Then why write books or articles? Wouldn't they also be "an illusion" from your (HFY) perspective? If I watched a seminar and didn't participate (let's say I was injured), would that be "an illusion" too? If not, how is that different than watching a video?

[JPinAZ]

Then why write books or articles? Wouldn't they also be "an illusion" from your (HFY) perspective? If I watched a seminar and didn't participate (let's say I was injured), would that be "an illusion" too? If not, how is that different than watching a video?

IMO, one of the differences is the experience. You go to a seminar, even if you don't participate, you can still ask questions. The experience is 'alive'. It can grow and evolve depending on the energy from the participants (or, in the case of the injured, those present). A video is not the same. If you ask your DVD player a question on something you are watching, you get no further explanation.

I guess my question to you regarding books/articles vs. videos - what does one look to gain from each? As I understand, the books and articles aren't designed to teach per say, they are a medium to share a glimps into the system. Sure, a video could do that too. But if a video wasn't designed as instructional but more of an introduction, some might say 'oh that's just marketing' anyway. So would there really be any more benifit from an intro video vs. an article/book?

Besides, wouldn't first-hand experience be much more valuble? (like attending a seminar)

Jonathan

[anerlich]

Besides, wouldn't first-hand experience be much more valuble? (like attending a seminar)

Ah, but you can't replay a seminar to go over what you missed the first time, freeze frame it, vary the speed, etc.


If you ask your DVD player a question on something you are watching, you get no further explanation.


Sometimes you can get an answer by watching several times. And sometimes you can't get your questions answered at seminars either, :)

What if you videotape a seminar? Is that "alive" or "dead"? why or why not?


some might say 'oh that's just marketing' anyway.

On one of the other threads MKF was explained by Savi as primarily a piece of marketing, which matches my own evaluation.

SBG: You must train "alive"; Functional JKD 1,2,3 videos explain and demonstrate the concept of aliveness.

HFY: Videos are not "alive" but dead.

Explain rthis paradox, using words of as many syllables as you like.

You guys can do what you want, but the hifalutin stuff you come out with to justify your actions is just weird.

Why not just say, "BECAUSE WE DON'T ******* WANT TO!" I'd respect that.

[Savi]

On one of the other threads MKF was explained by Savi as primarily a piece of marketing, which matches my own evaluation.
Marketing = METHOD Marketing MKF was for the sake of aiding in the preservation and documentation of the HFY lineage. Let's not get into this again... Dude, learn how to search and look through old threads. Reasons have been provided already.

Why not just say, "BECAUSE WE DON'T ******* WANT TO!" I'd respect that.
Anerlich, personally I don't give a rat's @ss about your respect for me or HFY members. I doubt anyone in the HFY family was asking for your respect.

If members of the HFY family want to provide a reason, then that's NOT your choice. We provide a reason because it is more beneficial to everyone to know why rather than just what. If you can't respect that, so what? I doubt anyone from HFY is looking to you for anything.

[t_niehoff]

IMO, one of the differences is the experience. You go to a seminar, even if you don't participate, you can still ask questions. The experience is 'alive'. It can grow and evolve depending on the energy from the participants (or, in the case of the injured, those present). A video is not the same. If you ask your DVD player a question on something you are watching, you get no further explanation.

I guess my question to you regarding books/articles vs. videos - what does one look to gain from each? As I understand, the books and articles aren't designed to teach per say, they are a medium to share a glimps into the system. Sure, a video could do that too. But if a video wasn't designed as instructional but more of an introduction, some might say 'oh that's just marketing' anyway. So would there really be any more benifit from an intro video vs. an article/book?

Besides, wouldn't first-hand experience be much more valuble? (like attending a seminar)

Jonathan

You seem to be relying on a distinction between something being merely informative versus it being solely instructuctional -- and I think this distinction is much less clear than you propose. But I won't argue the point.

In any event, couldn't a video or DVD be informative and not instructional in nature (or design)? For example, it could show the forms being performed. Or show some HFY drills and how they apply to HFY theory. In other words, give people an overview of the training without being instructional. Couldn't you show HFY practitioners in action - fighting/sparring? It would seem to be that a video/DVD would be much more informative, since we could see "action", than simply reading words and looking at pictures.

[osprey3883]

anerlich,


Why not just say, "BECAUSE WE DON'T ******* WANT TO!" I'd respect that.

Duende answered that here (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=766914&postcount=30)


it's just against our lineage's established tradition of teaching methods and our GM to make vids. Plain and simple.

And until that changes, you will not be seeing HFY videos made or released to the public.

Matt
Hung Fa Kwoon of Arizona

[JPinAZ]

You seem to be relying on a distinction between something being merely informative versus it being solely instructuctional -- and I think this distinction is much less clear than you propose. But I won't argue the point.

In any event, couldn't a video or DVD be informative and not instructional in nature (or design)? For example, it could show the forms being performed. Or show some HFY drills and how they apply to HFY theory. In other words, give people an overview of the training without being instructional. Couldn't you show HFY practitioners in action - fighting/sparring? It would seem to be that a video/DVD would be much more informative, since we could see "action", than simply reading words and looking at pictures.

T,

To answer quite simply, as I said before - wouldn't a hands-on face-to-face experience be worth much more?

To answer less simply:
Yes, a video could do those things - it realy depends on the intent. But then, that's all just surface level infromation without the hands-on real-world experience. IMO, the books/articles handle this well. And I could see how you might feel a video is much more informative that a book if you are looking at moving action vs. still photographs. But remember, along with the pictures comes written words in those articles that expains a LOT. So, it depends on the perspective to say what's more informative - video or written words w/pictures.

And sure, I agree, an article couldn't capture sparring. But really, why does HFY have to provide these things (videos of instruction and/or sparring) if they are not thier preferred methods of training? Again, I ask, wouldn't hands-on instruction, or even sparring, be a better demonstration if it was in person?

Besides, as has already been pointed out here, hasn't this whole video thing been beaten to death already? This whole thread started because of the interest the book built up - what's wrong with that? My advice to the original poster was to check it out for themselves. IMO, a book (or video) can only provide so much - nothing compares to hands-on real-world experience.

Jonathan

[Ultimatewingchun]

"we see videos as an illusion because the learning process of HFY is a dynamic, living approach - when you try to capture something alive, you end up with something dead, instead."


Ha! Ha! Ha! :D

(You've gotta love this)

[t_niehoff]

T,

To answer quite simply, as I said before - wouldn't a hands-on face-to-face experience be worth much more?


Of course, but that's besides the point. Wouldn't hands-on-face-to-face experience be better than reading a book or article or putting on demos too? Does that stop people in HFY from doing those things? Does it stop people from writing on forums?



To answer less simply:
Yes, a video could do those things - it realy depends on the intent. But then, that's all just surface level infromation without the hands-on real-world experience. IMO, the books/articles handle this well. And I could see how you might feel a video is much more informative that a book if you are looking at moving action vs. still photographs. But remember, along with the pictures comes written words in those articles that expains a LOT. So, it depends on the perspective to say what's more informative - video or written words w/pictures.


Along with video can be spoken words (even in voice-over) that can explain things too. Books can't provide the same level of information - especially about a physical activity - that video can. For example, a book can have photos of the form but that's not the same experience (level of info) as seeing it performed.



And sure, I agree, an article couldn't capture sparring. But really, why does HFY have to provide these things (videos of instruction and/or sparring) if they are not thier preferred methods of training? Again, I ask, wouldn't hands-on instruction, or even sparring, be a better demonstration if it was in person?


HFY does not "have to" provide anything. If people don't want to do a video that's fine by me. What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.



Besides, as has already been pointed out here, hasn't this whole video thing been beaten to death already? This whole thread started because of the interest the book built up - what's wrong with that? My advice to the original poster was to check it out for themselves. IMO, a book (or video) can only provide so much - nothing compares to hands-on real-world experience.

Jonathan

Sure it's been discussed before, and I didn't bring it up -- Jeremy did with his post about the "illusion" of video.

[anerlich]

Marketing = METHOD Marketing

METHOD Marketing = Marketing


Anerlich, personally I don't give a rat's @ss about your respect for me or HFY members. I doubt anyone in the HFY family was asking for your respect.


I'm glad our mutual expectations match, and you not be disappointed.

[r4cy]

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

[JPinAZ]

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

While I am not a representitive for the VTM museum (nor speaking for Master Meng), as far as I know, the videos he sells are not HFY.

Here is what it says on the VTM pages:
http://shop.vtmuseum.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3

http://shop.vtmuseum.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=113

So, in my understanding, while Master Meng does indeed practice HFY, the VT Museum is a seperate entity. Jeremy (passing_through) can probably clarify things better than myself.

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

Of course, but that's besides the point. Wouldn't hands-on-face-to-face experience be better than reading a book or article or putting on demos too? Does that stop people in HFY from doing those things? Does it stop people from writing on forums?

Sure, hands-on experience is best IMO. Nope, doesn't stop them at all. We are all free to do or not-do things as we wish/see fit. At this moment, the HFY family choses not to create videos, as ill-logical as you may feel it is. Why should the HFY family care what YOU feel is best for them??
Really, I don't see the point in going through all this again..


Along with video can be spoken words (even in voice-over) that can explain things too. Books can't provide the same level of information - especially about a physical activity - that video can. For example, a book can have photos of the form but that's not the same experience (level of info) as seeing it performed.

So what are you saying? That the HFY family should present things the way you see fit vs. how they see fit? If not, what is your point? Is it your intention to talk them into it? If not, then lets just move on.


HFY does not "have to" provide anything. If people don't want to do a video that's fine by me.

Good, then we can move on.

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

Sure, hands-on experience is best IMO. Nope, doesn't stop them at all. We are all free to do or not-do things as we wish/see fit. At this moment, the HFY family choses not to create videos, as ill-logical as you may feel it is. Why should the HFY family care what YOU feel is best for them??
Really, I don't see the point in going through all this again..


I'm not saying it is illogical for HFY to not produce videos -- I'm saying the reasons given for not doing so are illogical, inconsistent, and ill-conceived. I don't know what the HFY family feels or doesn't feel. But if its members go on to forums and give silly reasons, it reflects poorly on HFY. They may want to consider that.



So what are you saying? That the HFY family should present things the way you see fit vs. how they see fit? If not, what is your point? Is it your intention to talk them into it? If not, then lets just move on.


It's not just a matter of perspective (how I see vs. how they see), but whether the reasons given in support of that perspective makes sense. To maintain that HFY won't produce videos because they are "illusions" all the while writing books, articles and going around doing demos, etc. is at the very least hypocritical (video = illusion, book = reality?) and undermines their very position.

If you guys in HFY don't question these things, that is up to you, but you may want to consider that others will.



Good, then we can move on.

Jonathan

And we could have avoided the whole thing if Jeremy hadn't tried to "help" matters. ;)

[passing_through]

t_neihoff,

Sure it's been discussed before, and I didn't bring it up -- Jeremy did with his post about the "illusion" of video.

Ah… the Law of Unintended Consequences… or, no good deed goes unpunished…

Then why write books or articles?

Because.

Wouldn't they also be "an illusion" from your (HFY) perspective?

No. Yes. See below.

If I watched a seminar and didn't participate (let's say I was injured), would that be "an illusion" too?

On one level of thinking, everything is an illusion… so yes and no.

If not, how is that different than watching a video?

If you don’t know the difference between watching a video and attending a seminar while injured, I fail to see how anything I attempt to communicate can help. :D

What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.

It all depends on how you look at things and how much you know about what‘s going on - and I don‘t expect you to understand or appreciate something you haven‘t directly experienced for yourself.

A book or an article represents one moment in time - kinda like a picture - it’s frozen so you tend not to fall into the trap of thinking that what you’re seeing is what's really going on because you realize you're looking at something that's fixed. In a seminar, assuming you’re present, your awareness is in the moment - learning, living, and experiencing reality as it happens… and if you miss something, you miss something - after all, that‘s reality. Because you’re actually present, what you see/hear/feel/experience/think is what you get. Reality doesn’t have “do-overs.” So when you have something on videotape, you have something that’s in a limbo between something static (or dead/frozen/fixed) and something free and alive. It’s like stepping into a river twice and trying to step in the exact same spot - you can’t do it because the water that you originally stepped through has flowed downstream when you try to do it again. But if you look at a picture of a river, you can look at the exact same spot because nothing changes in the picture. So the HFY family doesn’t make videotapes.

anerlich,

SBG: You must train "alive"; Functional JKD 1,2,3 videos explain and demonstrate the concept of aliveness.

HFY: Videos are not "alive" but dead.

Explain rthis paradox, using words of as many syllables as you like.

It’s not a paradox - it’s two different points of view from two different cultures… which is more delicious - sushi or shumai? I love ‘em both.

R4cy,

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

If you mean the Shaolin Wing Chun DVDs, no they’re not HFY. Those videos are coming from the VTM and represent some of the conclusions from the VTM based on research into Wing Chun’s history and traditions in the Southern Shaolin Temples. I believe there’s some mention on HFY on those tapes.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[drleungjohn]

Andy-check your PM please-thanks

[t_niehoff]

What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.

It all depends on how you look at things and how much you know about what‘s going on - and I don‘t expect you to understand or appreciate something you haven‘t directly experienced for yourself.


We can all agree that experiencing things firsthand, via participation, is an excellent means of learning something. But there are also many times when not participating and just watching can be very helpful in learning. Video, or just plain observation, is a type of experience itself (there is such a thing as observational learning); people can and do learn from videos, people can come to appreciate things from videos, etc.



A book or an article represents one moment in time - kinda like a picture - it’s frozen so you tend not to fall into the trap of thinking that what you’re seeing is what's really going on because you realize you're looking at something that's fixed. In a seminar, assuming you’re present, your awareness is in the moment - learning, living, and experiencing reality as it happens… and if you miss something, you miss something - after all, that‘s reality. Because you’re actually present, what you see/hear/feel/experience/think is what you get. Reality doesn’t have “do-overs.” So when you have something on videotape, you have something that’s in a limbo between something static (or dead/frozen/fixed) and something free and alive. It’s like stepping into a river twice and trying to step in the exact same spot - you can’t do it because the water that you originally stepped through has flowed downstream when you try to do it again. But if you look at a picture of a river, you can look at the exact same spot because nothing changes in the picture. So the HFY family doesn’t make videotapes.


A video is reality -- it is a record of reality. While you can say that "reality doesn't have do-overs" (records of reality do), what is the problem with do-overs? Isn't it an advantage that if I miss something that I can replay it? Which promotes better understanding: missing something entirely (and maybe not even being aware I missed it) or replaying it so that I can catch it all?

By your reasoning it is OK to show me a picture of your punch or a series of pictures of you performing a linked set because that is "fixed", and it is OK to show me in person your punch or your performing a linked set because that is "alive", but it is an "illusion" (that aparently will just confuse me) to show me a video of your punch or your performing a linked set because that is neither "fixed" or "alive". (And I guess it's OK to look at my wedding photos because they are "fixed" but I should throw out the video -- after all, the video is trying to "step in the river twice" and that's not reality). Nonsense.

Print, video, participation each have advantages and disadvantages in terms of conveying information. There is no "best" medium. Participation is great, but often we miss things when participating "in the moment" because our focus is limited by the moment (and our attention at that time). Being able to replay that moment will permit us to change our focus and extract more info. The do-over is an advantage. But video can't provide interaction, and that's its disadvantage.

[Wayfaring]

There's nothing inherently wrong with video, magazine articles, internet articles, books, seminars, and local clubs as media for transmitting instruction and exposure to a martial art. Each has its own strength and weakness for a media for transmitting the above.

In HFY, the means chosen to do so is solely at the discretion of the founder and lineage holder, GM Garrett Gee. He decided in 1998 to take the art public as opposed to continuing its tradition of being taught underground in a secret society type of format.

I certainly don't speak for him or any of the HFY family, but since then the means GM Gee has chosen to transmit exposure to HFY in taking it public besides the standard method of training it at local clubs and schools are a web site - http://www.hungfakwoon.com, public seminars, and a book co-authored by Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen. He has not chosen to release videos to date, so the people studying HFY out of respect for his decision generally don't post up things on YouTube that are called HFY. There are also various co-authored articles that are available to view at different branch school web sites.

Some may like this. Some may not. Such is life.

[JPinAZ]

T,

"illogical, inconsistent, ill-conceived, silly, nonsense, etc". This is how you respond to answers given? Wonderfull..... These are all your opinions, and you are just one person. And, just because you say it it doesn't make it so.
Since the rational & reasons given are all these things in your view, it is obvious you will not agree with the reasons, not matter how many different perspectives, individual views, etc you are given. It seems you are once again just here to argue, regardless what information you are given.
HFY doesn't make videos, it's really just that simple. Your inability to come to terms with that, agree with it, rationalize with it, whatever is your problem.
You said you have no probelm that videos aren't made, and you agree that a direct experience is far better than a video (alive, dead or otherwise). Great, now can't you just shut up and let it rest? But, I think we all know the answer to that one - you're a lawyer, you can't stop arguing, even if all the points have been made :)

Do you really want to beat this dead horse into the ground another 10 pages? Or should I have looked to see if you are wearing your Troll Hat and just ignored you this time around?

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

There's nothing inherently wrong with video, magazine articles, internet articles, books, seminars, and local clubs as media for transmitting instruction and exposure to a martial art. Each has its own strength and weakness for a media for transmitting the above.

In HFY, the means chosen to do so is solely at the discretion of the founder and lineage holder, GM Garrett Gee. He decided in 1998 to take the art public as opposed to continuing its tradition of being taught underground in a secret society type of format.

I certainly don't speak for him or any of the HFY family, but since then the means GM Gee has chosen to transmit exposure to HFY in taking it public besides the standard method of training it at local clubs and schools are a web site - http://www.hungfakwoon.com, public seminars, and a book co-authored by Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen. He has not chosen to release videos to date, so the people studying HFY out of respect for his decision generally don't post up things on YouTube that are called HFY. There are also various co-authored articles that are available to view at different branch school web sites.

Some may like this. Some may not. Such is life.

I have no problem with that position as an explanation for why HFY does not have videos (Gee is our leader and he says no vids). Simple and straight-forward.

[t_niehoff]

T,

"illogical, inconsistent, ill-conceived, silly, nonsense, etc". This is how you respond to answers given? Wonderfull..... These are all your opinions, and you are just one person. And, just because you say it it doesn't make it so.


Of course it is my opinion. And, yes, that is how I respond to rationales and/or explanations that are inconsistent, illogical, and nonsensical. What am I supposed to say?

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that videos are used both to inform and to instruct in all manner of subjects, including martial arts. And that they have proved to be very useful tools. The evidence is uncontroverted and indisputable. So to even take the position that they are not useful is silly.



Since the rational & reasons given are all these things in your view, it is obvious you will not agree with the reasons, not matter how many different perspectives, individual views, etc you are given. It seems you are once again just here to argue, regardless what information you are given.


I am not here just to argue. If something makes sense, even if I disagree with it, that's one thing. But when the reasoning behind an explanation is unsound, as it was in this case, I'm not being argumentative to point it out.

What's very revealing is that you are not in any way offering a refutation to my reasons given for why Jeremy's explanation was absurd; all you are doing is complaining that I dare to criticize these things. Sorry you don't like it when I point out nonsense.



HFY doesn't make videos, it's really just that simple. Your inability to come to terms with that, agree with it, rationalize with it, whatever is your problem.
You said you have no probelm that videos aren't made, and you agree that a direct experience is far better than a video (alive, dead or otherwise). Great, now can't you just shut up and let it rest? But, I think we all know the answer to that one - you're a lawyer, you can't stop arguing, even if all the points have been made :)


I don't shut up about it because people like Jeremy come on here and give silly rationales. If they want to stick their foot in it, why get angry with me pointing that out? If you want to stop it, tell Jeremy to stop saying silly things. And if you don't want me to keep talking, stop talking to me! I am only responding to you. Respond to this post, and I'll respond to you again. Want it to stop? Then stop it. The ball is now in your court. Don't hit the ball to me and then complain that I keep hitting it back!



Do you really want to beat this dead horse into the ground another 10 pages? Or should I have looked to see if you are wearing your Troll Hat and just ignored you this time around?

Jonathan

Calling me a troll (ad hominem) is a poor attempt to dodge the issue here.

[JPinAZ]

T,

I'm not mad about anything. I'm not 'attacking' you - simply, you come off as a troll at times. My opinion, you don't like it, oh well.

You were also addressing me and talking directly to me, so it's not just your issue with Jeremy.

Simply, as you said yourself, GM Gee does not want videos made. That's been said before, and more than once. If someone else wants to add to it, that's thier porragative. In any case, it does seem you have a problem with videos not being made, regardless the reasons given (not just from this thread, but some other onese as well where this was discussed)

Anyway, I think the issue has been addressed enough, don't you? Who knows, maybe one day videos will be made. If so, would you even be interested in them?

Jonathan

[anerlich]

If so, would you even be interested in them?


'twould be a value for money issue.

I did buy MKF, METHOD marketing or no.


which is more delicious - sushi or shumai?

From this POV so far, SBG. I bought Spring Camp 2006 just last week. It's a video of various seminars. Hey, that gives me an idea ...


If you don’t know the difference between watching a video and attending a seminar while injured, I fail to see how anything I attempt to communicate can help.

Humour me. If I sat there and watched while injured (would I get a discount?), and watched a vid of the seminar, what would be different? The ability to ask questions about the material? But I could do that on the HFY108 forum after, surely. Couldn't I?

Yeah, it's been done to death. But it's amusing to watch you guys come up with new and varied mental contortions to justify something we all agree you don't have to justify.

Roger Wilco, over and out ...

[Wayfaring]

I have no problem with that position as an explanation for why HFY does not have videos (Gee is our leader and he says no vids). Simple and straight-forward.

Good. Because my fallback position would be to explain that certain aborigine tribes in New Guinea believe that a photograph captures your soul. Video of course would capture your soul in motion. And if that happens, who is going to let it out?

These are things to ponder.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good. Because my fallback position would be to explain that certain aborigine tribes in New Guinea believe that a photograph captures your soul. Video of course would capture your soul in motion. And if that happens, who is going to let it out?

These are things to ponder.


***GOD, this is hilarious!!! :)

(I'm lovin' this thread.)

[anerlich]

Vic, I'm sure he was joking. Terence had already stated the obvious, and there would be no need for the alleged fallback position.

Wayfaring, very witty.

[t_niehoff]

T,

I'm not mad about anything. I'm not 'attacking' you - simply, you come off as a troll at times. My opinion, you don't like it, oh well.


I don't think you know the common definition of "troll". ;)



You were also addressing me and talking directly to me, so it's not just your issue with Jeremy.


I just asked you if more books were coming out. I was going to leave the video debate alone until Jeremy took it upon himself to enlighten us with his pseudo-Zen "video is an illusion" position.



Simply, as you said yourself, GM Gee does not want videos made. That's been said before, and more than once. If someone else wants to add to it, that's thier porragative. In any case, it does seem you have a problem with videos not being made, regardless the reasons given (not just from this thread, but some other onese as well where this was discussed)


Yeah, that was said before and if the HFY guys left it at that everything would be fine and dandy. But when people start giving silly-ass reasons, like video is an illusion, it piques my interest and makes me wonder why they are saying something so inane. Do they believe we are so stupid as to buy that explanation (and I wonder too if other HFY people buy it)?



Anyway, I think the issue has been addressed enough, don't you? Who knows, maybe one day videos will be made. If so, would you even be interested in them?

Jonathan

Oh, it's been addressed. If videos were made that showed someone actually doing WCK, actually fighting with HFY, and actually able to do the things they talk about, against decent level fighters when pressed at 100%, yeah I'd be interested.

[Chango]

Maybe I can help here.
We do not have video available at this time. (for what ever reason)It is not our current focus. If this changes we let everyone know.
Thanks for the interest !

does this work for you?


Take care,
Chango :p

[CHS]

Here we go again! Can we move pass this video/no video topic, Please?

We all know there is no agreement on this, so why can't we just let it go and focus on Wing Chun?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, forget the video. :D

(But a very enjoyable thread nonetheless).

[drleungjohn]

answer'd your PM -log in to check it-

[JPinAZ]

I recently finished reading the book "Mastering Kung Fu" of the Hung Fa Yi system. Personally i found it to be a great book and it was quite an aye opener for me historically and technically. Apart from this, does anybody know is there any other book or video from this branch? Thanks

Hello again! I am curious, anything in particular you liked about the book, or any questions about the book or HFY in general?

Jonathan

[r4cy]

Well, first of all this is the first time I ever hear about something at least realistic from the story of wing chun. I am just tired of hearing how many styles have the same story behind them. Monkey, Crane, Snake, even Duck!!! The monk medidates at some place private and all the sudden the monk sees this particular animal fighting another and voilá!!!!Kung Fu happens. This book helped me treasure even more the system I practice, once I got to know how many people was involved and how many people died and why, and how wing chun was the result of all those struggles and knowledge of so many years. Really amazing. Apart from that, the theorical part was really informative, and helped me make a more profound analysis of my "Battlefield" and "Structure". The centerline, the two points of reference of distance, the three points of height, chambers.... the five yin and yang lines....anyway, all that helped me to visualize and contemplate my body and structure in a whole other way. It is sad, that the book wasn't profound in examples of all these lines and points...I found it a little jive at that... but apart from that ....Well it explained stuff in a way nobody ever did in my years of practice. It is good to know that some things I figured out myself in my studies goes accord with what the book teaches. So it was a nice experience. A book on drills for each part of the theories would be really good.... or a DVD heheheh Even if it is only an illusion.

[t_niehoff]

Well, first of all this is the first time I ever hear about something at least realistic from the story of wing chun. I am just tired of hearing how many styles have the same story behind them. Monkey, Crane, Snake, even Duck!!! The monk medidates at some place private and all the sudden the monk sees this particular animal fighting another and voilá!!!!Kung Fu happens.


Realistic? Perhaps. But that doesn't make it true.

The origin stories, whether Ng Mui or the snake/crane fight or whatever are not IMO meant to be taken literally -- they are allegories. And so are trying to convey something about the method beyond the story itself.



This book helped me treasure even more the system I practice, once I got to know how many people was involved and how many people died and why, and how wing chun was the result of all those struggles and knowledge of so many years. Really amazing.


So you are saying that a book that has an uproven orgin story helped you "treasure" "the system" (I LOL when people call it that, btw)? Interesting.



Apart from that, the theorical part was really informative, and helped me make a more profound analysis of my "Battlefield" and "Structure". The centerline, the two points of reference of distance, the three points of height, chambers.... the five yin and yang lines....anyway, all that helped me to visualize and contemplate my body and structure in a whole other way. It is sad, that the book wasn't profound in examples of all these lines and points...I found it a little jive at that... but apart from that ....Well it explained stuff in a way nobody ever did in my years of practice.


Has this "theory" made you a better fighter? That's the only thing that matters.



It is good to know that some things I figured out myself in my studies goes accord with what the book teaches. So it was a nice experience. A book on drills for each part of the theories would be really good.... or a DVD heheheh Even if it is only an illusion.

My view is that until I see that a person can really do the things they talk about doing in fighting at 100% and against someone with decent skills/attributes (and not someone from their own camp), I'm extremely skeptical in accepting their theory, claims, etc. This doesn't apply to just HFY. There are now a great number of books, videos, etc. about WCK on the market.

The benchmark for this is IMO Mario Sperry's Vale Tudo 1 series, where he breaks the fight down into strategic steps, shows you waht to do at each step, how to train it, how it leads into the next step, etc. and then puts it all together. Then he shows footage of his actual fights, and he's doing in fighting exactly what he is teaching on the tapes. What he teaches (talks about), how he trains, and how he fights corresponds 1 to 1 to 1. I'm not suggesting we all fight like Mario, or that his way is best -- just that he does what he talks about doing. If he shows a technique, he actually uses it in fighting. As the Dog Brothers say, "if you see it taught, you see it fought." In my view if someone can't do that, they shouldn't be writing books or making videos. And if they can do it, there is no reason they should be unwilling to demonstrate that they can. Because that is the only way to know what is BS and what is not. It can sound profound, it can make "sense", it can be demonstrated, it can be done in chi sao, etc. and still collapse under the pressure of fighting. So, if you don't see it fought, don't believe it.

[nschmelzer]

TN - you sound like a broken record. We get it. We get your point. It is a valid point. How about some fresh thoughts? And by the way, for many of us - being able to fight is not all that matters. Do you get that point? Is that a valid point? Finally, let's see some video of you walking your own talk. After all, isn't you who says the walk is all that matters?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"let's see some video of you walking your own talk. After all, isn't you who says the walk is all that matters?"



***You'll never see such a video. That's the biggest joke of all about this guy.

[YungChun]

What I don't get about Terence is why he <seems to> align himself with WCK at all..

From his numerous writings I see that Terence doesn't think the founders of WCK knew jack schit about fighting, and that goes for most all CMA and everyone's lineage..

He doesn't seem to follow much if any of the traditional WCK training, including form work; he doesn't seem to recognize any real differences between kick boxing/boxing/MT/WCK in terms of fighting technique; He is constantly holding up examples of those who actually fight well, but are never WCK folks; He states that unless you prove you can fight and fight well against someone who has 'proven skills' then what you say is meaningless in the first place, yet he provides no proof, nor is there any evidence of, him living up to his own 'walk the walk' standards..

So, why in the world is Terence involved in and constantly pontificating on WCK at all?

[t_niehoff]

Victor, I haven't written any books or produced any videos, so I am not making any assertions that I am an authority on WCK. Telling people they should look to proven authorities (people who can really do what they talk about) hardly requires me to provide evidence of anything.

Broken record? Yeah, in a sense you're right: asking for proof of what people claim does get to be a broken record in TMAs. That't the real shame of it all.

YongChun, I question everything. Requiring evidence or proof is the foundation of reason. And even if "the founders" had it right, that doesn't mean that what you do or what you say (or anyone for that matter) is the same as "the founders." If you can do what you say to do, whether following in the footsteps of the founders or not, then providing evidence should not be a problem. If you - or anyone - can't do it, what does it matter what anyone says?

What's so funny about this is how people have problems with the whole idea of providng proof, evidence, of claims -- including of how to apply WCK. In my book, that's very revealing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have a theory about this: He's just practicing his legal spin "skills"...

Lawyers regularly try to convince people to believe certain things that they represent as facts - which are not true at all.

For example, a lawyer for ABC corporation might say that their client broke no laws about XYZ. (Meanwhile, they're guilty as sin - and the lawyer knows it).

But these lawyers are hired to convince the judge and jury otherwise. So they bull5hit, spin things like a top, avoid pertinent facts that destroy their arguments, try to plant doubt where there was none before, (or where there shouldn't be any)...call into question the veracity of the testimony/experience of others, and repeat certain mantras (ie.- my client is innocent) over and over again - hoping that enough of it will stick.

THIS IS TERENCE ON THIS FORUM.

But the facts he tries to skew, avoid, or deny - and the bull he tries to convince us of - concerns wing chun kung fu.

HE'S PRACTICING HIS LAWYER SKILLS.

He's been trained to rebutt anything - whether it's true or false.

[YungChun]

HE'S PRACTICING HIS LAWYER SKILLS.
I agree. This occurred to me as well..

And Terence it's not about what I know or the founders knew, but about the fact that you espouse that all CMA are BS, or at least 90&#37; of them so including WCK... So the question remains: Why would you align yourself with some antiquated BS CMA like this one? Why aren't you training in a real fighting art like MT and posting about how much better the training/fighting skills are?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Go to wingchunkuen.com and look up the article(s) he's written in the past about full body structure wing chun. This will give you a hint: to fully come out of the closet now and say that all wing chun is basically worthless would repudiate many years of his own life - and the "spin" he's put on his chosen lineage.

CONTRADICTIONS ALL OVER THE PLACE.

But hey...that's a lawyer for you. In the end...no matter what...they're always right.

(That's the spin they tell themselves, anyway :rolleyes:).

[byond1]

Yes Vic - and the differance between Lawyers and Entertainers, is very revealing.

Lets take musicians like Marilyn manson or Gwar - at the end of the night, they go home, take off the make up, and leave the act behind. In other words, they dont buy their own BS.

If what I see here is representational of typical Lawyer mentality, I must say, they even convince themselves of the BS and thats...well fanatical and making them closer to the likes of those that organize exoteric religion.:D


B

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well you know what, Brian...it could be argued that MONEY is the new GOD in our culture - the CORPORATE WORLD ETHIC is the new religion...

and CEO's and corporate LAWYERS are the new priests.


Jesus help us!!! :eek: :D

[duende]

. Apart from that, the theorical part was really informative, and helped me make a more profound analysis of my "Battlefield" and "Structure". The centerline, the two points of reference of distance, the three points of height, chambers.... the five yin and yang lines....anyway, all that helped me to visualize and contemplate my body and structure in a whole other way. It is sad, that the book wasn't profound in examples of all these lines and points...I found it a little jive at that... but apart from that ....Well it explained stuff in a way nobody ever did in my years of practice. It is good to know that some things I figured out myself in my studies goes accord with what the book teaches. So it was a nice experience. A book on drills for each part of the theories would be really good.... or a DVD heheheh Even if it is only an illusion.

Hey thanks for the review. As for examples of the structure, just take a look at any of the student pics in the book. For the most part they are pretty reprentative, although we did put some pics of beginners in the book too that are not as correct.

As for a book on drills.... let's see what the future holds. GM Gee has mentioned wanting to do something to that extent.

Best,

[Nick Forrer]

Yes Vic - and the differance between Lawyers and Entertainers, is very revealing.

Lets take musicians like Marilyn manson or Gwar - at the end of the night, they go home, take off the make up, and leave the act behind. In other words, they dont buy their own BS.

If what I see here is representational of typical Lawyer mentality, I must say, they even convince themselves of the BS and thats...well fanatical and making them closer to the likes of those that organize exoteric religion.:D


B


Pretty pathetic (thou not uncommon) to see this kind of sentiment. Lawyers come in all shapes and sizes - most ethical - a few not - those who are not - like corrupt cops, politicians etc. are usually found out and dealt with accordingly.

If Lawyers didnt argue a clients case to the best of their ability they would be doing their clients, themselves and their profession a huge disfavour. The alternative is that they should make some kind of subjective value judgement on each case they are given and only argue the ones they feel they can win and/or which chime with their personal ethics (which obviously varies from person to person). In which case many would be left without legal representation - thus denying them a basic human right and contradicting the rule of law including the idea that every person is innocent until proven guilty.

If a bad judgement is made in a case dont blame the lawyer for doing their job well. Blame the Jury/Judge for doing their job poorly. They are the arbiters of fact - not lawyers.

Finally if you dont like what Terence says either address his arguments (with proof and/or reasoning) or ignore him - dont resort to personal attacks (about his profession or anything else) - its a sign you have lost the argument.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As for a book on drills.... let's see what the future holds. GM Gee has mentioned wanting to do something to that extent." (duende)


***A BOOK ON DRILLS?

Don't you think that a video on drills (as a supplement to a book) would be extremely helpful? Since drills are dynamic. A series of still photos and written explanations can only take you so far with this - but a vid with simultaneous verbals would clearly take things to a higher level of comprehension. NO?

[Knifefighter]

I have a theory about this: He's just practicing his legal spin "skills"...

I also have a theory. I think Terrance gets under Victor's skin becuase Terrance completely kicks Victor's ass when in comes to the intellectual debates here. Terrence is the master of forum fu and rules the forum here and I'm sure that ticks Victor off no end. He knocks the fuk out of Victor and just about everyone else here with his verbal sparring skills.

He usually has at least three or four people ganging up on him at one time and he always manages to come out the winner. I can't even count the number of times I thought he was on the ropes from good points people had made, but he always manages to come back with well-thought and killing rebuttals. He almost never uses personal insults, while his enemies are almost always left with nothing but personal insults as their final ammunition.

[Matrix]

I can't even count the number of times I thought he was on the ropes from good points people had made, but he always manages to come back with well-thought and killing rebuttals. That's your opinion, which has always been with Terence so it's probably somewhat less than objective. Of course, there is no such thing as an "unbiased opinion" and if there were it would certainly not be able to live in this environment. ;)

If I were a lawyer, I would be using my legal "spin" skills as well. Why would I not use those skills? Besides, we all have some "spin" to put on our point of view. We all like to believe that we are objective in our opinion, but we're just fooling ourselves. You can easily become entrenched in your position to the point where you're no longer listening to the other people, but just thinking of how how to counter what they have said. It's a bit of a game. It's enjoyable at times, and just annoying at other times.

[t_niehoff]

I have a theory about this: He's just practicing his legal spin "skills"...



No, Victor, I'm using my critical thinking skills. They're quite useful in ferreting out BS, fuzzy thinking, poor logic, etc. I highly recommend them. :)

[t_niehoff]

Go to wingchunkuen.com and look up the article(s) he's written in the past about full body structure wing chun. This will give you a hint: to fully come out of the closet now and say that all wing chun is basically worthless would repudiate many years of his own life - and the "spin" he's put on his chosen lineage.

CONTRADICTIONS ALL OVER THE PLACE.

But hey...that's a lawyer for you. In the end...no matter what...they're always right.

(That's the spin they tell themselves, anyway :rolleyes:).

Actually, Victor, I think WCK can be a very good fighting method (I've never said it wasn't, btw). I still practice WCK. For me, my years in WCK have been a continual learning process, and learning is in my view never wasted. Even today, I continue to grow in the art.

Those articles that I wrote, I think still fairly represent my views, on body-structure, on the method, etc. If you are seeing my views now as some sort of repudiation of WCK (or Robert's teachings in particular), you couldn't be more wrong.

The problem with WCK isn't in the art itself. The problem is in the traditional mindset and all the BS that goes with it, the ineffective training methods, etc. And in the belief structure of so many of its "followers". Most people "following" WCK don't even practice it in my view; as I see it, if you are not fighting with it, you are not really practicing WCK.

There are some really good WCK teachers and fighters out there. They are just very, very rare. It takes real discernment -- which only comes from experience and critical thinking (there that is again!) -- to find them.

I present my views here on this forum just to provide a counter-balance to what I see as the "traditional" views in WCK (which is the overwhelming view in WCK). I understand why you don't like that -- because it directly opposes your traditional views, your "status", etc. I don't expect that TMAists will either endorse or enjoy my views. And I couldn't care less. :)

I'm not always right, and I know that. I'm open to new evidence and to solid reasoning. But until someone presents those, why should I think that I'm mistaken?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Actually, Victor, I think WCK can be a very good fighting method (I've never said it wasn't, btw)."


Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :rolleyes::rolleyes::D


Jesus, he must really think we're clueless to try and run that by us.

What a clown! :cool: :p

[Vajramusti]

Respect your right to your judgement.
Mine? I bought the book when it came out, read it and gave it away.

Regarded it as a marketing book with some fiction, fuzzy lineage history
and patronising towards "mainstream" wing chun.

Anerlich from Australia gave a fairly balanced review early on- but no good deed goes unrewarded as a later post from a HFY person showed.

The thread like most has veered off into other areas.

Back to practice.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Jesus, he must really think we're clueless to try and run that by us.


Just some of you. ;)

I *know* there are good WCK fighters out there -- a few on this forum. There is actually evidence that proves it.

Find a post where I ever said WCK wasn't a good MA. Of course, you can't because I never said that. But as we all know, you don't concern yourself with having evidence to support your views.

Hey, I've got an idea -- why don't you call me some more names? It seems that's about all you can really do. :)

[JPinAZ]

Respect your right to your judgement.
Mine? I bought the book when it came out, read it and gave it away.

Regarded it as a marketing book with some fiction, fuzzy lineage history
and patronising towards "mainstream" wing chun.

Anerlich from Australia gave a fairly balanced review early on- but no good deed goes unrewarded as a later post from a HFY person showed.

The thread like most has veered off into other areas.

Back to practice.

joy chaudhuri


Joy,

I'm curious, did you ever have a chance to see/feel HFY in person? Being so close to the AZ kwoon and all...

Jonathan

Note: I do agree the thread, as almost every other thread on this forum, has just gone straight back to the same personal quibbles that the other threads turn into. One would think these same guys would learn that after all these years it's not getting them anywhere... It's just so pointless..

[YungChun]

I think WCK can be a very good fighting method

What do you think is good about WCK that is specific to WCK and differentiates it from other similar methods?


The problem is in the traditional mindset and all the BS that goes with it, the ineffective training methods

Which methods specific to WCK are you referring to?

[YungChun]

Find a post where I ever said WCK wasn't a good MA.
You have intimated that all CMA are essentially crap...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yung Chun has hit the correct.

And now Terence can do his spin lawyer dance.

The guy has intimated in about 200 posts by now that wing chun, it's training methods, and it's people are essentially crap - but has never walked the walk either in person (Cleveland) or on any vid - about anything...be it his wing chun skills or any other martial skills.

Typical lawyer bull/ego/audacity.

BACK TO THE LAND OF IGNORE, troll....

[anerlich]

Find a post where I ever said WCK wasn't a good MA.

What an ego. Thinking there would be anyone interested enough to trawl through all that drivel.

[t_niehoff]

You have intimated that all CMA are essentially crap...

TCMAs, like traditional japanese jiujitsu *produces* crap, but not because those methods, at least some of them, don't have solid technical foundations, but because they train them really poorly. How many traditional japanese JJ schools are there? Too many too count (just as there are so many TCMAs). How come we never see any of them represented in any grappling or MMA or NHB fights (at least successfully)? Because they train like really poorly. Kano took much of the technical basis from traditional JJ and just updated/modernized the training, modernized the thinking, etc. And then, like today, TJJJ doesn't hold a candle to judo or its progeny, BJJ, at least in terms of producing results. Those methods that haven't adopted the better, more modern training methods have become essentially some sort of performance art or a vehicle for fantasy role-playing. That's true in Japan, in China, and the West.

But, please, don't let anything stop you guys from getting together in your matching outfits, diligently doing your forms, developing your chi, worshiping your sifu and ancestors, practicing your dim mak finger strikes, thinking you have the secret theory that makes what you do the "real WCK", etc.

[Matrix]

Wow Terence. I'm sensing some pent up hostility in your post. I thought it started off quite well with a relatively balanced critique of TMA. From what I can tell, the same problems are starting to creep into the MMA world. Schools of lower calibre come onto the scene as it's popularity increases since someone sees that there is a buck to made. Not that money making is a problem in itself, but it can attract the wrong type of person into the market where an unsuspecting public is duped.

Then you go into this rant...

But, please, don't let anything stop you guys from getting together in your matching outfits, diligently doing your forms, developing your chi, worshiping your sifu and ancestors, practicing your dim mak finger strikes, thinking you have the secret theory that makes what you do the "real WCK", etc.I'm not sure if your fashion sense has been insulted by clashing belts and shirts, or what. As for sifu worship, I suggest you look closely in the mirror when you make these comments. Your recommendation of your sifu's recent publication, when the book clearly covers the topics that you rail against ( i.e forms) shows that everyone has a bias. IMO, I think your comments carry more weight when you show some restraint, and stay away from the biting sarcasm - we already have more than our fair share of that. :rolleyes: But maybe that's just me.

[DRleungjan]

But, please, don't let anything stop you guys from getting together in your matching outfits, diligently doing your forms, developing your chi, worshiping your sifu and ancestors, practicing your dim mak finger strikes, thinking you have the secret theory that makes what you do the "real WCK", etc.

Hey Terence,

Misconceptions abound and I would like to comment a bit, even if a little astray to the subject at hand. Usually I will shun these comments but on this little occasion I will post. Society as whole is really forgetting its roots and many of us in the martial circles are also going the same direction. I have observed and now I will dissect the above comments and give you my flawed and traditional ideas of what martial arts are.

'getting together in your matching outfits...': The Chinese were a ppl of ideas and subtleties abound in everything they do or did. Matching outfits are not just for aesthetic looks they represent the idea of 'one art, one family' and brotherhood among men. Martial virtue maybe?

'diligently practicing your forms': Again forms are not there just for the sake of them being there. If one looks at them as you would look at an encyclopedia then one would understand the many concepts and techniques of one's art. Of course one has to put these to the test, but that's a given.

'developing your chi': Hei (chi) is not supernatural. The development of hei is to strengthen ones body. Why have 'skills if one doesn't have health?' my pops and also my sifu would always tell me anyhows.

'worship of sifu and ancestors': True, no need to pay homage/reverence to the many that sacrificed, fought, and in some instance died for you and I to have the art. None of us are here on just our efforts. Many have helped us and given us advise to get were we presently are. I truly understand were I have been and I think this gives me a small idea where I am at and where I want to head toward.

'practice your dim mak strikes': Dim Mak...understanding of the body and its various points...this isn't uselful? so why have it?

Last but not least...there are no secret theories in any art...theories lie within the practitioner and if they work for him/her they are valid ones. No one person looks at or practices the art in the same way within the same family style. It is one of the reasons I try to keep an objective outlook toward the martial arts. Martial arts are not just for beating an opponent to a bloody pulp (although one must train diligently to be able to do so if need be)...it is also there to help preserve life. If a person can not understand this duality of the the martial arts then they have no balance whatsoever.

Take care, :)

[anerlich]

'getting together in your matching outfits...':

Unless they're a no gi exclusive club, most BJJ academies expect you to wear a gi. A lot of them expect you to put club patches on it as well, especially if you compete, which is of course the hallmark of a REAL MA.

Not a lot of KF academies have ceremonies as elaborate as MT's Wai Kru (sp?) either.


Those methods that haven't adopted the better, more modern training methods have become essentially some sort of performance art or a vehicle for fantasy role-playing.

Have you seen the trailer for Eddie Bravo's forthcoming Rubber Guard DVD? you just described a lot of its content, I think.

Not dissing either art, or Eddie, it wasn't me who suggested such things were crap.

[r4cy]

Wow, would it help if I just say that HFY did not helped me at all? maybe that would stop all this mess. I already had my answers, at least what I knew I was going to get from this forum. I propose to just get a beer and chill ok? C ya guys in another forum.

[Hendrik]

Here are my comments:



'developing your chi':

Hei (chi) is not supernatural. The development of hei is to strengthen ones body. Why have 'skills if one doesn't have health?' my pops and also my sifu would always tell me anyhows. ------------

FACT:



1,


the chinese use the Chi handling to help the health of thier astronauts. In Fact, under record, the chinese Astronauts were tune via chinese herb before the flying. and the result is both the Astronauts walks out of the space ship/rokect /whatever with excellent health and no air sickness while thier traveling into the space.

I have watched the documentary video. and how the TCM pioneer study different cases of USA and Russian astronauts, and then decide what to do to tune these mens' body.


2,

Beside, what is Chi in martial art? until one knows what it is. how could one comment?










'worship of sifu and ancestors':

True, no need to pay homage/reverence to the many that sacrificed, fought, and in some instance died for you and I to have the art. None of us are here on just our efforts. Many have helped us and given us advise to get were we presently are. I truly understand were I have been and I think this gives me a small idea where I am at and where I want to head toward.-------


what is wrong with worship sifu and ancestors? what is wrong with other practice thier tradition?

some worship money, some worship violence? some worship thier own ego or blind self-righteousness, what do you worship?











'practice your dim mak strikes':

Dim Mak...understanding of the body and its various points...this isn't uselful? so why have it?


Last but not least...there are no secret theories in any art...theories lie within the practitioner and if they work for him/her they are valid ones. No one person looks at or practices the art in the same way within the same family style. It is one of the reasons I try to keep an objective outlook toward the martial arts. Martial arts are not just for beating an opponent to a bloody pulp (although one must train diligently to be able to do so if need be)...it is also there to help preserve life. If a person can not understand this duality of the the martial arts then they have no balance whatsoever. --------



Fact:


2002, a famous chinese lady TV person from Taiwan was left coma in a Train accident in Britian/ Europa.

Western Medicine cant do much to safe here.

She was transport to Beijing, due to here critical condition, ALL WESTERN MEDICINE was drop. She was under the Traditional Chinese Medicine, her body condition recover, and via Accupuncture, she awake from her coma...

[DRleungjan]

Hendrik,

Exactly my point with my earlier rhetorical statement...in order to cook a good meal one needs all of the ingredients if not food tastes so-so...don't you think? ;)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Exactly my point with my earlier rhetorical statement...in order to cook a good meal one needs all of the ingredients if not food tastes so-so...don't you think? ;)


Yup.


I can appreciate different opinions. however when the opinion is totally blind. it is just absurd.


Qi is simple stuffs. in fact, one dont have to go to mystisysm to know what is Qi. just practice cultivate it. and experience its grow in one's body. that simple.

So, instead of argue and keep spining the mind, wasting all the energy. just go train with a sifu who knows what is it and how to cultivate it.

It is just off the mark not tasting chocolate and keep commenting about chocolate. Is Chocolate the best thing is the world? depend. but not tasting it and keep bu$thing and commenting is just showing one's ignorance and a big ego so big that one become blind.

[DRleungjan]

a big AMEN to your above statement brother Hendrik.

Welp...back to my corner...hehehe :)

[drleungjohn]

DRleungjan is a different person then me-
John Crescione