Empiric evidence for MMA

[Fu-Pow]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP

[Hai_To]

I was under the impression that Knifefighter has posted clips of himself competing. As he is one of the people most likely to ask for a TCMA person to back up his claims, it would appear that your challenge has been met.

[WinterPalm]

Which Knifefighter video? The choppy editing halocaust? Or the wing chun match?:D

[Fu-Pow]

I was under the impression that Knifefighter has posted clips of himself competing. As he is one of the people most likely to ask for a TCMA person to back up his claims, it would appear that your challenge has been met.

Knifefighter has....I respect him for that. He's the only one ever to make it off of my ignore list.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have said this many times, any system of H2H combat, be it sport or "reality oriented", if it is going ot be judged, must be judged on the merits of its "average" practioners not its elite.

[gwa sow]

the problem for tcma today are
not many qualified to teach properly
difficult to maintain quality students

there are to many forms collectors running schools. many martial artists in kung fu equate good kung fu to how well and how many forms one knows. now if thats what you want out of kung fu thats fine. but if you want to fight that doesn't help. drill the basics. so many people leran tcma and cant even use jab cross and basic kicks effectively. When running a tcma school there is a mix of people who want to train to fight or just excersise and do forms. its difficult to mix both. a seperate curriculum for both would be good but there is only so much time during the week. also many of the techniques contained in the forms are very diffucult to excecute and many are unrealistic. In any fight only a handful of moves are used. so who will have a greater chance to win. someone who practices these few moves over and over or someone who has a lot of stuff but not enough practice to effectively use it.

[Notintheface]

m•pir•ic ( m-pîr k)empiric
n.
1. One who is guided by practical experience rather than precepts or theory.
2. An unqualified or dishonest practitioner; a charlatan.

Someone please repost this so Fu pow can see this or just the links. He has me on ignore 
What Fu Pow is trying to do is switch the burden of proof from himself to others. He is trying to use the above definition in an improper manner. Someone who is training in the Martial arts with an empiric mindset will use PRACTICAL experience instead of UNPROVEN theory. He will test his/her techniques in actual forced scenarios and decipher which work and which do not. He will not say “Hey throw a lunge punch or a slow jab so I can test this technique to see if it really works.” He would say “Let me work on this technique by you throwing a slow jab so I can practice it, then throw the jab for real, i.e. to hit me, so I can see if my technique works.”

Fupow
There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

Even if the individual making the claim that TMA has nothing to offer yet MMA does, they do not need to post something of themselves to prove it. There is enough empiric data collected in video format created by that average Joe and not some pro fighter. If you ask the same from most people they are unable to produce any such evidence.

Also Fu pow people are not asking you to put up video of yourself to perform but are asking for an example of ANY kung fu tested under pressure that doesn’t turn into San Da. This is still good as far as I am concerned. But San da is a far cry from what Fu Pow is suggesting. Just look at the link of the shoulder strike he posted in the MMA Thread



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJSlIH_xA Average joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stfpm2Z02LQ Average get together of average joe’s at a multi style NY bullshido throw down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8o0MsU3AUg Guy versus girl: Anna is a Thai fighter, I think she just won a title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqE9zaUhc3A Sambo in NY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7RpNXC9zkI Intramural torney in Puerto Rico… more average guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dyM6T3i1II Judo guys at a tourney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6QvmsXpLoY OMG kids that are 7 years old understand testing the skill. But wait isn’t the techniques to deadly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCgauZf1PU&mode=related&search= SOME BAD ASS KIDS MMA not pros lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmoxFIT1iZ0 Kids Judo Empiric data.. I GRAB LEG SHE FALL DOWN GO BOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QvEtsBEg8A&mode=related&search= Kids Judo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxP3VKAsDLs&mode=related&search= Shuai Jiao average joe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p3WrgbSCEM&mode=related&search= Kyokushin

[Knifefighter]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP
There is a big difference between pointing to one's teacher or to those who have supposedly done things in the past versus using documented, openly viewed competitions as examples of what can and cannot work.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out someone else using specific fighting approaches, as long as these approaches can be documented.

MMA fighters are good examples of people who use specific, workable techniques consistently at high levels.

Want to see some examples of what TMA techniques can effective? Watch Cung Le or Georges St. Pierre.

[Notintheface]

This is my favorite mantis clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlPNrSDuqs&NR=1

now only if they do that **** off a real jab and in real combat scenario. (By the by, I say if because I have not seen it actually being applied on any video or live format yet but i'll leave the door open for me to be wrong.)

but when you see something like that being done by an MMA person all you have to do is ask "Hey can you apply that RNC or elbow in a real fight and they will show you."

Just so I don't appear to be completely one sided I did some searching on you tube to find some clips of Kung fu sparring and testing. It was easier to find the clips on MMA, Judo, KYo, Shuai jiao and the others than it was to find some that actually showed kung fu combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8 Now even though this may be seen as making fun of KF you can actually see some tested material. But you can clearly see they know what works in their Kung fu format. Now the format has changed and become more streamline… so now you either adapt or fade away. Hell if Frank Yee’s people can make the changes and adapt I wonder why most other refuse to?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA3DpYDImAg

Hell I hate WC… but this boy, even though he is not actually making contact, is showing his **** off. If he could repeat that in combat after he has taken a blow then he could prove his **** works. But do not misconstrue this comment. A punch thrown with intent is different that what the other student is throwing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9KzhqbM4vM average joe kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlh3mmtdsxg average guys bak mei sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E5bMiv6EXI average kung fu guy in a cage match. Kung fu guy won but please tell me where is the unique kung fu techniques in this match or did he throw a shoulder attack I didn’t notice?

[Notintheface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwSY6OhLEWg&mode=related&search=


This video is a mixture of what is real and not real in Kung fu IMO….. If you notice most of the real fighters are gravitating toward San Da and Shuai Jiao. Now in all of that has any seen anything truly unique or some hidden secret? There is some nonsense in there like the monk and the guy in the orange shirt. The monk and the TKD could be iffy but the monk did move fast as hell. The military dude is umm you decide.


real ****ing real ass shoulder strike at 1:13

[sanjuro_ronin]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP

Here is the thing, sport combat people are very much "show me" people.
They don't take the claims of anyone, though they do tend to be ok with claims from people that train in a "recognized" system that has proved its self over and over , not just once or twice.
TMA tend to either "stick with their own" in terms of competition or tend to fall in the "too deadly" crap arena.
The fact that the majority of MA and sport combat arts ARE TMA is ignored and to an extent irrelevant.

Yes, in the end all that matter is what WE can do, YET, training in a system that is being "proven" and that can be "proven", gives people reason to say "show me".

Granted that proof is contextual, nevertheless, it is right to say "show me".

[SifuAbel]

I did a search for kung fu sparring. It came up at "of about 700 ". What made you pick these select few?

Oddly, mine didn't come up at all. I must not know the system well enough yet. :(

[Mas Judt]

What I don't understand is the lack of confidence on the part of many CMA players. I have never experienced any slight from MMAers - only respect. There is a lot of great stuff in CMA, but also a lot of cr@p training methodology. I have yet to meet a hardcore CMA guy who did not play hard with the MMA crowd.

The MMA argument is one my Shuai Chiao group was making decades ago. This is not a new argument. There is validity on both sides. We need to drop the cultural BS and look towards the training methodology.

[Fu-Pow]

There is a big difference between pointing to one's teacher or to those who have supposedly done things in the past versus using documented, openly viewed competitions as examples of what can and cannot work.

My point is that the difference is one of degree, not either you train a documented MMA system (for instance the combo of Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai) and you automatically become good or you train in a undocumented TCMA system and you suck.

Its how YOU approach YOUR training. Ultimately, it comes back to the individual and how YOU build YOUR training "system" and make it work for YOU.



There is nothing wrong with pointing out someone else using specific fighting approaches, as long as these approaches can be documented.

MMA fighters are good examples of people who use specific, workable techniques consistently at high levels.

My point is that there are many people who claim to be MMA fighters that don't ever fight. Can they claim any more legitimacy to their "system" than those who train traditionally?

Perhaps, they can. But its a matter of degree. Yes, they have their teacher documented fighting. However, its not a clear indicator of what they individually can do.

So they can talk till blue in the face about how superior MMA is to other approaches but it says nothing about what you can do. All it tells us is that someone made it work for THEM.

They may have more confidence because their teacher is a documented fighter. However, regardless of what system you create or sign on to in order to make it work you have to get in there and do it yourself.

And in this respect I admire those in the MMA camp for this approach. And I admire those in the TMA camp that follow that same path.

I think that those in TMA not already doing this, can take that same approach and cut through the B.S. from their styles and get back to the "root", the "specific, workable techniques"...... without losing the aspects and specialties of TMA that make them unique.

This means that some techniques are going to have to be trained outside of an competitive environment because they're not legal in a sport competition. However, those techniques that are compatible can definitely be trained and applied in a sporting arena.

Right now I'm working on extracting techniques from my Taiji form that can be applied wearing boxing gloves and trained repetitively.



Want to see some examples of what TMA techniques can effective? Watch Cung Le or Georges St. Pierre.

I'm not familiar with Georges St. Pierre but Cung Le's background seems to be from TMA in general and not TCMA.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46993

That's what I'm advocating for here. I'd also like to see a hybrid San Shou/MMA event that only allows groundfighting for a limited time frame, something like 10-20 seconds. It would make for a better event.

FP

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I'm advocating for here. I'd also like to see a hybrid San Shou/MMA event that only allows groundfighting for a limited time frame, something like 10-20 seconds. It would make for a better event

Reply]
I would also like to see Kuo Shou do the same. I really like the Kuo Shou format, but it needs to grow beyond the amature level.

[Notintheface]

I did a search for kung fu sparring. It came up at "of about 700 ". What made you pick these select few?

Oddly, mine didn't come up at all. I must not know the system well enough yet.

When I searched "Kung fu sparring" on youtube the material that came up was two man set, kickboxing that was supposed to be kung fu, sand da and something that I truly don't know what it would be considered. So, instead of putting up the worse clips I found, I took my time and put up some of the better ones. Mind you, I had the "average joe" representation concept in my head.

Abel kindly put up clips that you think represents Kung fu at its finest or even at its average.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

[SifuAbel]

In other words, "you do all the work". I'll take my time.

Here's me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8YZB5hta6A

[unkokusai]

LOL! Even TKD children have to laugh at that tippy-tappy fest! :eek::D

[Notintheface]

lol I liked the sweep. Hey kudos for actually posting your won stuff but it actually proves my point. There is nothing there that differentiates your kung fu from point sparring or kick boxing. I still like the leg sweep!!;)




in other words, "you do all the work". I'll take my time.
No I am still looking but your aid would be appreciated.

[SifuAbel]

lol I liked the sweep. Hey kudos for actually posting your won stuff but it actually proves my point. There is nothing there that differentiates your kung fu from point sparring or kick boxing. I still like the leg sweep!!;)
No I am still looking but your aid would be appreciated.

Actually, there are many differences. The notion that CMA doesn't somehow kick and punch is ridiculous.

[Notintheface]

Actually, there are many differences. The notion that CMA doesn't somehow kick and punch is ridiculous.

Abel you got your notions wrong :confused:


If I say, " Hmm, that looks no different than kick boxing." That means, I am taking into account that kung fu does kick and punch. Other wise I would say, "Hmm , that looks like Country Line dancing."

My notion is


There is nothing there that differentiates your kung fu from point sparring or kick boxing.

This mean hey look you kick, punch, and spar like kick boxers.

This is your notion....


Actually, there are many differences

Where? There was nothing different that could be extrapolated from that video clip to prove kung fu's claims. No one goes beyond kicking and punching. Plus, there is nothing unique to even differentiate it from Karate point sparring. So please tell me where my notion is incorrect.

[gwa sow]

so are you looking for something more like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-7USCZWR4&mode=related&search=

[banditshaw]

How about this group....seems like they mix it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo

Sorry if it's been posted before(probably has somewhere).

[Notintheface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-7USCZWR4&mode=related&search=

gwa sow

Now we are headed in the right direction! Much kudos to them for trying to make their stuff work, even though some of it was flailing with head turning, but you could still see which techniques were applied constantly with success. I would most definitely consider the best kung fu, non glove, testing of skill I have seen to date. but I do have question, when you add hard contact will that start to break down? If you have video of hard contact I would love to see it.

Other than that, I can see there were a few beginners and some advance people which allowed a direct line to be drawn from beginner skill to more seasoned practitioner. Now as you continue to train in that manner would you broaden the area of influence?

You know that it is going to work on other kung fu systems but what about MT, Judo or Wrestling?

Also have you found out that certain techniques no longer apply? Do you allow them to work it off a jab and cross?

For example, the guy in all black starts to do knees and the other gentleman eats a few at time 2:32. Kudos that he tries to, and does, strike the throat to disengage the kneeing attack.

Overall This is most definitely heading in the right direction!

KUDOS NY WU TANG.

[gwa sow]

definatley cool if real. hope not some kind of half choreagraphed thing

[Notintheface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo

**** MOTHER YA.... Kung fu ala dog brothers!

That I can respect and you can actually see some of the Bak mei techniques and not as much arm flailing ( I hate that **** ).

[Notintheface]

definatley cool if real. hope not some kind of half choreographed thing

I was watching for repetition.Even though some of the techniques were repeated time and time again I did not notice any actual choreographed stuff. I do not agree with starting with a lunge punch but at least they are trying.


edit add*

I would like to see the war guys against other MMAers, thai fighters ect ect!

[SifuAbel]

Where? There was nothing different that could be extrapolated from that video clip to prove kung fu's claims. No one goes beyond kicking and punching. Plus, there is nothing unique to even differentiate it from Karate point sparring. So please tell me where my notion is incorrect.

Nearly everything behind the kicks and punches. I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

Note signature:

[Notintheface]

Nearly everything behind the kicks and punches. I'm not going to bother arguing with you.
Note signature:

One that is BS and a cop out in defining something. I see that this is your MO, if you can not explain something you resort to your sig or to name calling or whatever.... I'll one up you!


You have no ****ing clue as to what you are talking about :)

P.S. There was nothing special behind the kicks or punches. Power generation is universal unless you can throw a kick out of your ******* :) I could walk into a karate school and see the same stuff, actually, even a bit better :) Ok now you can go to your board and write about me :) kthanksbye hugs and kisses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo&watch_response (Hmm looks good to me)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-7USCZWR4&mode=related&search= ( respected these guys more than what you posted )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8YZB5hta6A (looks like **** to me except that lil sweep thingy lol )

[SifuAbel]

The reason behind "I don't want to bother arguing with you" is that you don't see past huge gross motor fuctions. What IS kung fu? Its in the details. Kickboxers move very differently. The tactics, techniques, strategies are way different.

You can't see it, I can't make you.

So then, we need now YOUR example of how the "Real deal" does it.

Or: Note signature.

"Ok now you can go to your board and write about me"

Why?

[Notintheface]

is that you don't see past huge gross motor fuctions.

What you provided was pure gross motor function. If I didn't come from kung fu schools that treated what you posted as kung fu but taught self defense another way.

No please take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo&watch_response

I can see here what kung fu is trying to offer that is unique. I can see the actual whipping force and short explosive energy. I can see hammer fist strikes and willow leaf palm and a few other technique I forgot what their names were. The Fahjing is apparent in what they did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-7U...elated&search= ( These guys are on their way to looking like the guys above if they keep on the same track)

your video on the other hand shows nothing other than gross motor skills.

All fighting styles are based on the details and the strategy but the way you are using it is a cop(sp) out.

here please view these videos and compare what you to them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrAn4pP77c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMR5VoXU4w

[SifuAbel]

:rolleyes: I promised myself......... oh well.

Here goes. You aren't really saying anything. You're just posting video and pointing at it like a retard.

You're not making any real points.

So its not training unless you are slapping around bare knuckle and not hitting each other? Fabulous.

Unless any one of those guys is you, stfu.

[Notintheface]

s for this

Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post

It's ok, because we've already established, LONG AGO, that anyone who is afraid to reveal their identity while talking trash has no credibility. He can ramble on trying to act like he's noble or whatever, he is a troll, pure and simple.

First off I said who I am. Even though on a web board anyone could be anybody and no one would know the difference. I bring up valid issues about kung fu and look to deal with falsehoods. When I am exposed to something new, like I was with the links I reposted, I digest and comment. Knowledge is knowledge and common sense is common sense, regardless if I am well know or known at all doesn't negate what is being said.

Let explain something to you about credibility: It is not based on perception of the individual but on that of supporting facts. Let's take the person whom you quoted lkfm. His school has been in an ever evolving state. He has gone through the process of teaching traditionally before the advent of MMA( as in heavy point sparring and teaching forms and weapon sets) but he has evolved and did not stay stagnate. If he was to tell me "Hey I can apply technique X in full contact" I would expect him to show me and not give any excuses. He has built his credibility through his actions and not excuses.

He has credibility only further strengthens the knowledge coming out of his mouth. You don't know me nor do I know you personally. Now if you take what I have been posting as representative of what I think is effective says a lot. Lets say I am completely ignorant of kung fu. If I look at Chong's material I could see actual techniques from the forms being used and effective.

On the other hand what you posted of yourself as indicative of kung fu says a lot about your knowledge of your own art.

If these people,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo&watch_response, say they are gonna palm me in the head I'm more inclined to believe them.

They have the credibility. What they say, they do,they are no longer "stories" of skill but actual skill.

The kicking and punching in your video was simple and basic. There was nothing special the "eye" could not see

[Notintheface]

Yup I knew you would reply like that.... ok


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lpRkNCPwYo&watch_response

here let me break it down for you....

time: 00:46 a nice back knuckle punch..( Wish I remember the terminology)

time: 00:47 nice choi something or another ( palm strike) If you look closely with your "eye" He is using some whipping force then hooks the head.... But I am sure that is not Kung fu/:rolleyes:

time: 00:49 nice he stepped off the centerline closed the gate and punched the guy right in the face.

Time: 00:50 Here you can see he is throwing a punch but is not just a regular jab or cross. I can see here the actual power generation of bak mei. If you notice as it hits you see a bit of influx of power. That is the fighter trying to generate fahjing... the famous scared power of Bak mei.

Please educate me where there is more than bs point sparring in your clip?


WTF are you seriously ****ing blind....:confused::eek:
Dude, that is far better than what you are offering. Until you can actually do something beyond point sparring..... ahh the hell with it fix your eyes so you can see better.



So its not training unless you are slapping around bare knuckle and not hitting each other? Fabulous.

[Black Jack II]

Abel I hate to bag on you for this as its out of context, and btw I don't think your sparring was just point based as others have said here, looked like normal medium contact stuff used within a certain context, and with protective gear which I actually think in certain respects is a very good thing.

What I am going to bag on your for is that you once gave me a hard time about the VERY SAME style headgear in the redman suits for situational drills........jack a$$:p

[SifuAbel]

No, the redman suit issue is that one is in th suit and the other is being tapped on the shoulder while humming at a wall so they can turn around and do their shtick on the red man. We were in gear HITTING EACH OTHER.

[SifuAbel]

NITF's "analysis" was laughable.

The only one that looked good was the teacher. Most of the rest was slap happy.

[Notintheface]

so we are even then? You made me laugh with your video and I made you laugh at my analysis :) :rolleyes:


The only one that looked good was the teacher. Most of the rest was slap happy

OMG...........Yeah I think its better we don't interact with each other. I came here to troll and debate not lose I.Q points

[Notintheface]

We were in gear HITTING EACH OTHER.

......Can't resist the urge......

This is a hit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbv7T1LMGyg

This is Hitting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4I_O3Sjgs

This is.. well you get the message http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpmu7duojgc

What you did i would consider sensual massage :) Did you use lotion?


(PSA: Going troll mode. Logic will so go out the window and I will just throw stuff at Abel

[SifuAbel]

note signature:

[Notintheface]

note my sig :)

[SifuAbel]

note sig: comprehend it, understand its implications.

[Knifefighter]

This is Hitting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4I_O3Sjgs


That would be me at 0:12 (mounted & driving down with the stick) & 0:17 (staff with red shirt).

[Notintheface]

Ahh, multiple post-fu... Do I have to wear a mouth piece and chest protector?

[Notintheface]

**** Kinfe, if that is you now I know why I like your post so much!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Beautiful reversal at 00:28 - 00:31 of the takedown. Love to see escapes and reversals than just flopping to guard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4I_O3Sjgs

[Knifefighter]

Beautiful reversal at 00:28 - 00:31 of the takedown. Love to see escapes and reversals than just flopping to guard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4I_O3Sjgs


That's Eric "Top Dog". He was a purple belt in BJJ at the time.

[SifuAbel]

I came here ............................ not [to] lose I.Q points

Yeah, you don't want to lose all three of them.

[Notintheface]

Hey, if I do lose all three i.q points then it would be an even match of wits between you and I. :)

[SifuAbel]

Perhaps, but you'll still have a hard on for me. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

You two need to get a room.

[Notintheface]

That is what I have been saying...... but he won't take me to the prom :)