Transitioning to Contracts

[Oso]

Has anyone else gone from month-to-month or 'cash out' quarterly/bi-annual/annual tuition plans to contract only?

How did you present it?

How was it recieved?

[TenTigers]

depends-how big is your school? Do you have more than enough to float your costs if you cash out students, and then have a slow period, or drop-outs? Do you have a steady inflow of new enrollments? How good is your retention? All these variables need to be factored in before you cut your own throat with a quick-fix this month, which could end up killing you down the road.

[Oso]

In April I had 26 students enrolled.

It's not intended to be a quick fix but something I've been putting off due to ostrich syndrome.

We are just in the planning phase now and would like to implement for September.

Do you have more than enough to float your costs if you cash out students, and then have a slow period, or drop-outs?

No, that's part of the problem, we've got a real up and down due to using quarterly cash outs and we've had a large percentage of people deciding to take a month or two off in the summer...disastrously so.

Do you have a steady inflow of new enrollments?

so-so...some new strategies in marketing are also going to be tried.

How good is your retention?

fairly good I think but not as good as I'd like of course. honestly though, I can only think of 1 or 2 students that I've lost because of the way I teach or the basic program.

All these variables need to be factored in before you cut your own throat with a quick-fix this month, which could end up killing you down the road.

agreed, I understand that I may lose people who don't like the idea of the contract.

But, most of my problems aren't from new students, it's older students, who I believe will be back in a month, that have a track record of whimsically deciding to take a month off.

Bottom line is I'm trying to get some consistency to the cash flow...both the industry mags I get have had recent articles decrying 'cash outs' in general and have presented good argument for contracts.

I've thought that the simplest thing is to not try to convert old students but just bring new students in via contract.

[Three Harmonies]

As a teacher I totally understand why people use them.
As a student I cannot stand the ****! I prefer to control things, not have automatic withdraw and what not.
Jake

[Oso]

ok, well, these days most contracts have at least 60-day if not 30-day opt out clauses. so, no one is completely locked in.

also, pretty much all money transactions are going electronic these days...most banks don't even send each other the paper checks anymore. the day of cash and checks is soon to be over.

besides, the place I'm looking has the option of the student receiving an invoice and them sending in a check...it just costs more to do it that way.

so, essentially I can set it up so that there are several options for the student but the least expensive of them is eft.

[TenTigers]

contracts are the only way to go in my book-although I have a few cash students, and cash out from time to time as well.
I tell them that it is not monthly tuition, but monthly installments on a yearly MEMBERSHIP to the school. This way they see it as the same way they join a health club. They are not paying for the lessons, they are paying for the membership. If they take a month off, they still maintain their payments, just as they would their car payments, mortgage,insurance, health plan, etc.
Besides, when students take time off in the summer, sometimes they don't return so soon. When they rea;ize that they are paying nonetheless, they get their arses back in the kwoon pdq.

[Oso]

contracts are the only way to go in my book-although I have a few cash students, and cash out from time to time as well.
I tell them that it is not monthly tuition, but monthly installments on a yearly MEMBERSHIP to the school. This way they see it as the same way they join a health club. They are not paying for the lessons, they are paying for the membership. If they take a month off, they still maintain their payments, just as they would their car payments, mortgage,insurance, health plan, etc.
Besides, when students take time off in the summer, sometimes they don't return so soon. When they rea;ize that they are paying nonetheless, they get their arses back in the kwoon pdq.

good angle, thanks.

[Notintheface]

Well I have know a few people to treat there schools like health clubs. The offer the following


3 months up front 300 cash up front

6 months up front 600 cash up front

12 months up front 800 (4 months free if you act now) cash up front

Private lessons: whatever price per hour

They do this for the people who do not know if they are full committed with sticking to the program. These are the impulse buyers, summer beach body searchers, new years resolution, Just saw Iron Monkey and I want to fight like that people.

Then they have the: Those who want a membership so they can come and go as they please.
( Toss in a promotional uniform, water bottle, keyring what ever to give it that welcome to the gym feeling...maybe even a permanent locker in the school while those who are not members have to rent one daily)

6 month: Contract: 75 $ toss in a few private lessons for free of 50% reduced price (Deducted from a debit account, checking or credit card system)

12 month: Contract 65 $ toss in a few private lessons for free

(Deducted from a debit account, checking or credit card system)


Now remember these numbers are fictitious and are not a true representation of an actual business model's pricing plan.

Hopefully, Ross could spin some advice this way.

[Black Jack II]

If your using a martial arts contract can you sell the payment stream to a accounts recievable brokerage??

Might be a good idea to get some of that cash up front at a discount.

[Oso]

i've posted this before but here are my current rates:

85/month
75/month if paid quarterly - 225
65/month if paid every 6 - 390
55/month if paid every 12 - 660

if two family members join then they each get 10 off per month at any of the above rates.

college students w/ current ID also get 10 off.

never had a taker beyond the quarterly.

I like the angle of the Annual Membership paid in installments.


Black Jack...right now I don't have anything to sell...no contracts yet...as I understand it that's the only thing you could sell...or use as collateral for loans.

[Notintheface]

85/month
75/month if paid quarterly - 225
65/month if paid every 6 - 390
55/month if paid every 12 - 660

if two family members join then they each get 10 off per month at any of the above rates.

college students w/ current ID also get 10 off.

So I am taking this as if they signed up for 12 they would pay the lump sum of 660 up front correct?

The problem with this is the same problem Health clubs face. They have dry spells. That is why around Christmas, after thanksgiving, New Years resolution time, and the start of the summer body rush they offer special deals and prices.

Say there normal year on contract is 1200 for gym fees

what they do around the above time frames they will offer 3,6, and 12 month buy rate that is slightly cheaper than the pay by month contract. The impulse buyer would look at the cheaper cost and usually go with that.

So they would set something up like this....(This is my friends business strat)

Come in with coupon A and sign up for a NEW membership.

3 months just 300

6 months 550 OMG a 50 dollar value

12 800 dollars omg a value

now this is where it gets pretty cool. Usually the sales pitch goes through and people usually sign up for either the 3 month or the 6 month because it is cheaper and they are impulse buyers. These people do not stay for long thus they do not take up gym space. So the wave of impulse buyer is usually charted like the following:

Sept Oct end after thanksgiving (Influx of membership where the person rarely takes up gym space)

Thanksgiving to New Years (Influx of membership)

Jan to April ( April beach body month influx of members)

May to June ( medium amount of influx of beach body seekers)

June July August ( Even flow of members joining and leaving)

now the above is not hard fact or science... It is what was explained to me from a health club owner.

To supplement his influx of membership dues. He sent out flyers to Police stations in the area, schools, fire houses, Church org, and things of that nature offering discounted rates. Then he made a deal with the high schools in the area to hold their weight lifting class in his gym at a really low reduced rate.

Allowed the PAL to use his hardwood floor room to host a kids martial arts/boxing class. He took that as a tax write off for charity.

Sent out flyers to local colleges and tech schools adverting reduced prices.

the important thing you and your students have to understand that Business is Business and friends are friends. They have to pay you on time so you can keep the school running and replace that ratty old banana bag. You are offering a service and they need to understand that. You can be friends but don't let that friendship jeopardized the betterment of your school.

The less you have to worry about dealing with collecting dues and keeping things a float the more motivated you will be when coaching your students.

[Oso]

So I am taking this as if they signed up for 12 they would pay the lump sum of 660 up front correct?

correct.

The problem with this is the same problem Health clubs face. They have dry spells. That is why around Christmas, after thanksgiving, New Years resolution time, and the start of the summer body rush they offer special deals and prices.

yep, I've done the same...but I don't have the capital base to hit any newspapers and rely on flyers.

ftr, I spent about 1400-1600 one year on print advertising. zero return.

the important thing you and your students have to understand that Business is Business and friends are friends. They have to pay you on time so you can keep the school running and replace that ratty old banana bag. You are offering a service and they need to understand that. You can be friends but don't let that friendship jeopardized the betterment of your school.

agreed and that's mostly how it works. I've said before that AVL is a wierd town and others have said 'people are the same everywhere' and I would agree that the people that are going to buy in to the empty promises of most mcdojos are probably the same here and if I did that I'd not be worrying about rent.

I feel like I'm stuck between 'markets'

I don't teach kids below 7.

I don't teach crap ass Shotokan

I don't teach MMA (though I'm working on figuring out how to have a full-contact only 'class/curriculum' for those that don't want forms.)

I don't promise people that simply signing up and attending class will improve their life, grades, attention span or personal discipline.

I don't mystify the legends of CMA and I don't preach taoism or buddhism...or pacifism for that matter. :)

The less you have to worry about dealing with collecting dues and keeping things a float the more motivated you will be when coaching your students.

yea, the other thing that is going to happen with this shift, however it works out, is that all money matters will be handled through someone else here in AVL and the billing company.

[SoCo KungFu]

Not that my opinion means much. But just make sure that you aren't shooting yourself in the foot. I like to see MA schools succeed. Its a **** tough business. I remember my old sifu tried to teach me the business side of things and him telling me the average MA school doesn't last past 3 years.

Anyways from a consumer POV. When I am searching for a school in a new area there a few key things I look for. I always try to do research before I contact the school. Usually the first thing I look at is the instructor. Mainly experience. Simple things like tournies and stuff that they might frequent. After that a lot of teachers have a bio on the site and I'll check out things like passed career and stuff. Things like Police background, military and such that would lend to a "combat background" so to speak. I know it sounds a bit weird but I'm particular about my training (Hey its my money after all.) And a "martial" background is even more important to me if they don't frequent some sort of tourny scene (with competitive sparring at least) or they don't have some sort of indication that this is a major aspect of curriculum (sorry but I've seen WAY too many McDojo since I joined the military and travel every couple years.)

Usually the next thing I see is fee. If there is a contract involved the first thing I ask myself is, "Whats the deal that they gotta use a contract?" Then I go to the first things I looked at. If the sifu looks good, some sort of sparring or contact involved in the training, etc. then it tends to tell me its something with the students and either the training is more difficult or whatever and they don't stick. This to me actually makes me more interested. If however I don't see some things indicative to what I'm looking for in the areas I first looked, then I start to get scam alert.

Honestly I understand why schools are having to try these things to keep up revenue. Students are tough to keep. And I do have to say that my situation is biased against contracts because of my career. I'm just not going to buy into a financial commitment because I might have to leave at the drop of a hat and thus be unable to receive the service I pay for. That and I don't know your city. Florida is terrible because of the migrant residents. The northerners that buy up property but are only here during the winter months. They keep their land, but are only supplying to the economy half the year. It makes it tough here for everyone that is here year round. So I understand why some schools in this area have moved to a contract base.

Its just so typically contracts are the first blinking red light of McDojo that I just avoid them like a plague. And I'd hate to see your school suffer. But you know your market area so I think you'll be alright.

I do want to ask though. I remember you mentioning something like this before (I'm pretty sure it was you). You mentioned you were becoming frustrated with students not sticking around. You had your core, but most just come and go. And thats typical of most people who get into MA, they just don't stick around more that a few months to a year. So I want to ask, are you doing this because of the students? Or to keep your lights on? Both? Because if its just the students, contracting the impulse buyers (even if it keeps you door open) isn't going to solve that frustration. They are still going to leave after that 3 or 6 month contract.

I just say that because I'd hate to see another sifu become frustrated with this same issue. I remember my first sifu telling me on a number of occasions how much he wanted to up the intensity of the class. All the other students always commented how much harder he was on my brother and me. He wanted to do that with everybody and put together a good core group of fighters and such. But he would say he just can't do it because all the others would leave. And as much as he liked teacher my brother and me, we don't pay his mortgage. Eventually he got burnt out of teaching and sold the school :( It later closed down and now my friend tries to teach the 3 or 4 that still like to train. Nothing hard core though, they just can't take it.

Anyways, I know this wasn't really helpful post. I just wish you good luck. All the Pong Lai guys I've met have been cool and I'd like to see you all have successful schools and keep it real mantis style :cool:

[Notintheface]

Take your guys to a local park on the weekend and train them there with weapons flashing, if the law permits, pads a banging, and forms a flowering. Make sure to give it a wow factor and bring a lot of flyers. People will come and look and oh and ah. Have students ready to give out flyers.



yep, I've done the same...but I don't have the capital base to hit any newspapers and rely on flyers.

ftr, I spent about 1400-1600 one year on print advertising. zero return.





people that are going to buy in to the empty promises of most mcdojos are probably the same here and if I did that I'd not be worrying about rent.

They don't have to be empty promises. What does your martial arts style have to offer them? What is the benefit of having you as an instructor? saying something like this is not an empty promise "Training in my martial art will help you lose weight, become fit and feel better about yourself" ( I am not an advertising adept so the wording may be poor)


I don't teach kids below 7.

You don't have to teach kids younger than 7 to be successful. Do you donate some to the local schools by performing a martial arts demonstration.? Invest in creating some grab bags with flyers, coupons and stickers to give the kids. Contact school PTA's and offer to speak about obesity and children and how martial arts will help in regulating children's weight. Set up a conditioning class for children.

Children and parents are weird. When a child becomes fickle because the class grows stale they then leave, plain and simple. Keep it fun and loose but grounded in reality. Pull out the basics for the kids and be creative in the manner how you teach it.

Pull out for example all the throws you know and then practice it a few times slow with them have them gear up and say ok we are gonna spar now only using the throw you just taught them. (Be careful on the choice of throws you teach them lol ). Make it a contest to see who gets the most throws by the end of their round and you keep track of it in a visual format for the kids to see. they will go above and beyond trying to make the technique work just to say they are the winner. (remember to to teach sportsmanship)

I used to also buy recycled sheets of paper and place them between holders and have them perform a team relay. People will see this as Mc dojoism but please bear with me. They would then perform several striking and kicking combination down a length of the room and at the end kick or strike through the sheet paper run back down to their team mate, tag them, and go to the end of the line. During this activity they would usually throw about 15-20 kicks, 20 hand combinations, perform some sit up and push up all the while being motivated by their classmates



I don't teach MMA (though I'm working on figuring out how to have a full-contact only 'class/curriculum' for those that don't want forms.)


You don't have to teach MMA to have a successful combat class. Do you have basic punches, throws, kicks, sweeping techniques? If you do then you can easily pull all that stuff and set up a curriculum for San Da.

Remeber that your clients are going to want all want different things from you but you have to decide how you want to run things without sacrificing what you think martial arts should be.

I don't know how many days a week you teach or for how long but check out the class styles and description I will list.

offer classes like this to attract different type of customers.

Adult This reflect the business side of me and not what I think is real and unreal when it comes to combat.

Kung fu for health- This class is focused on performing lots of pad work, body conditioning, endurance training, stretching, ect , ect..... Think of this like the training one does when getting ready for a fight without having to actually go fight. Keep it high impact, energetic, highly motivated, and positive.

Kung fu traditional: Your traditional stuff but have those who sign up the traditional class also be included in the "for health class" so during this class you can concentrate on forms, weapons training, techniques and what ever else is included in the "traditional"

San Da/ Sparring course- kicking, punching, throwing, blah blah blah.

Kung fu competition : Those who want to compete but don't want to fight. concentrate on getting them into competition shape.


All of this is off the top of my head, you would have to sit down and create a business plan and decide what type of clientel you want to attract, how are you going to meet their needs, what do you think you can offer that is better than the rest, ect , ect.




I don't mystify the legends of CMA and I don't preach taoism or buddhism...or pacifism for that matter.


You don't have to!

Believe it or not a lot of the MMA schools are learning how to run a gym from watching Mcdojo practices. They keep the integrity of their martial arts club but use the business practices which have been proven to be successful.

You may want to talk to Ross or anyone else who has a successful school, full time, to pick their brain. I have not successfully operated a school in close to a decade. Also think, do you want to teach MA and only do that for the rest of your life or is this just a part time thing.

[Notintheface]

[QUOTE]Its just so typically contracts are the first blinking red light of Mc Dojo that I just avoid them like a plague. And I'd hate to see your school suffer. But you know your market area so I think you'll be alright.[/QUOTE

I know many MMA schools that use contracts, gym fee format, monthly format up front, and per class format very well. Contracts is just smart business practice. It is only associated with Mc Dojo because they were smart enough to use it first with any success. To be less Mc Dojoish if you feel that contracts are bad, offer a buy out clause to pay 50-75% of what is left on the contract.

You can also notify them that they can freeze membership but they still have to finish paying off the contract. Meaning, if they have 4 months left on their contract and have to leave the state they can freeze it and then come back later to finish off that 4 months.

[Oso]

wow, too much to reply to this morning, but thanks.

schedule:

Mon/Wed 5:30 Youth

Tue/Thur 5:30 Women's (focus is more on fitness through kung fu vs. hardcore martial skills in an all female environment)

M,T,W,Tr : 6:30 Adult Beginners ( less than 18 months or so)

M,W,Tr : 7:30 Adult Intermediate and above

T : 7:30 Grappling

Sat

10AM : Conditioning
11AM: Open Floor
12: Weapons
1-3: Sparring: Medium to Full San Da style or MMA style w/ grappling
3: Youth

The Adult class has a 5 class format:

Ti, Da, Shuai, Na, sparring -> repeat

this has been working very well for a while now. weekday sparring is light only so as to not scare people away and if they want to go harder, we do that every saturday.

NOTF: you make some good points and I want to respond but will probably not be back online till late tonight or tomorrow...gotta work today and start moving.

SoCo Kung Fu:

I do want to ask though. I remember you mentioning something like this before (I'm pretty sure it was you).

Probably.

You mentioned you were becoming frustrated with students not sticking around. You had your core, but most just come and go. And thats typical of most people who get into MA, they just don't stick around more that a few months to a year. So I want to ask, are you doing this because of the students? Or to keep your lights on? Both?

Both. And, really, it's circular: the students need to pay their bill so I can pay mine. I haven't put money in my pocket in over 3 years and usually have to pay out of pocket to make ends meet.

I've come around to feel that there are some of the impulse buyers that would stick it out longer with the added motivation of the contract. The others that will drop no matter what can opt out w/ 60 days notice.

It's been said before by others and I've slowly come around, as a business I have to make contractual agreements to keep the school open, the lease mainly. It's just trickle down, imo. The health club model adopted by the uber-commercial MA industry at least makes sure the bills are paid.

Because if its just the students, contracting the impulse buyers (even if it keeps you door open) isn't going to solve that frustration. They are still going to leave after that 3 or 6 month contract.

the shortest contract is probably going to be 9 months (the school year) for college students who legitimately won't be around for the summer. All others will be 12 month minimum.

I hear what you are saying though and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. That's why I'm trying to get feed back here. :)

gotta run, thanks everyone.

[TenTigers]

Oso, not sure where you live, but I have alot of people that commute to work in the city. They can't do a 9-5 with an hour and a half commute and make a 630 class, so I bumped it up to 7:15. You may want to try that.
I use a billing service-shop around for the best prices. I chose Member Solutions, as their price was low, and they offered free consulting and support. And they did not push their own agendas.
I try to use direct deposit as much as possible. At first, I was shy to ask, as I felt it was an intrusion of their privacy-you know, having access to their acct or credit card. I eventually woke up and learned that this is the way most people actually prefer to do business. PLUS-it takes you out of the equation as a seller.You do not handle the finances and you keep your teacher/student rleationship.
TT

[SoCo KungFu]

[QUOTE]

I know many MMA schools that use contracts, gym fee format, monthly format up front, and per class format very well. Contracts is just smart business practice. It is only associated with Mc Dojo because they were smart enough to use it first with any success. To be less Mc Dojoish if you feel that contracts are bad, offer a buy out clause to pay 50-75% of what is left on the contract.

You can also notify them that they can freeze membership but they still have to finish paying off the contract. Meaning, if they have 4 months left on their contract and have to leave the state they can freeze it and then come back later to finish off that 4 months.

You are absolutely correct. But as you said, McDojo got there first. And you just can't fight reputation. You can only fight to change it. Which is why I went into the whole researching the teacher, curriculum thing. If it looks legit, then I wouldn't be so hesitant about a contract or some sort of up-front plan; IF there is some sort of service freeze or some sort of military clause for when I get sent away for a month to a year. For me a buyout option just wouldn't cut it as its almost gauranteed that I will have to leave at some point during the contract. If I had to pay money to save money, I'm just not going to pay to begin with.

But my biases are a bit based on my situation which won't be the norm for a student. And as time has passed, I've become more and more selective of where I train. I know sometimes it tends to put a teacher off with the amount of upfront information I ask when I'm looking at a school. I guess it can come off as interrogationish. But its my training, my time, my money and my investment to my future so I'm going to be in the know and I'm going to be in control of the situation as much as possible. That's just being a smart consumer. Now on the other hand, I train hard, show up to class as much as possible, try to help out with demos or gatherings when possible and I am a patient student. I know you got to work hard to progress and I respect sifu that push their students to master some skill before moving on; not just spoon feeding them. And I'm not the type of student that stops showing up if I like the training (I'm not hard to please, just do some sparring or something besides forms all day.) The only time I leave a school is when the military makes me move. And thats a situation I hate to be in. When I'm part of a school I want to do my part to help it succeed. Because it again is an investment in my future.

Anyways, Oso I understand you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the rent. And I think your training will speak for itself in regards to your current students. The ones that are you core will probably stay regardless...maybe sceptic at first but when they see that for them its not much a change since they are showing up anyways, I think they will fall in and support the kwoon. And the ones that might leave are probably the drifters that would probably have found another reason to leave anyways.

As to your ad problems. Park demos are cool. I think because people there are lounging and have the time to drift their attention to you or they are there running or working out anyways so they might be more receptive. We used to do mall demos but still it didn't really bring in much. When we tried flyers, coupons etc. We tallied up once and for like every 300 or so flyers/coupons that we'd put out, we'd get 1 prospective return (by that I mean someone calling or walking in to at least talk, that didn't mean they'd sign up). It was just inneficient. Are you using things like yellowpages.com or yellowbook and stuff like that? I know my current sifu and the BJJ gym I am trying to get to now I found both in yellowpages.com

Also do you have a school website? If you can't front the cost to print a crap ton of flyers. Try something cheap like make a big sign and bring it when you do the park demos. Have your school info on it too. Then put a printable coupon or something on the website. Granted it might not be as good as a hand out right there on spot. But if they were really interested enough then I don't see it such a stretch that they'd go home and check you out online. And I agree with Notintheface. Def at least have someone around to act as PR rep. Even if you can't hand out stuff, someone to greet passerby's and such. A good friendly face to make the first contact with those interested.

Well, best to you. PL has a lot to offer as a system and I hope you do well. I used to admire you guys cuz in the crappy FL tournies, they were some of the only guys really trying to do the mantis in the San Shou floor. Sometimes it didn't always work so well but they were there testing their kung fu and you got to respect that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

An option: as a student, it's sometimes hard to find locations of schools. If you have your own website, that's good. But you need a way to get to your website. Here, in Atlanta, there's something called the Atlanta Martial Arts Directory which lists schools from all different styles, CMA, JMA, IMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, etc. It's very easy, and the directory links to the websites of the schools. You might want to find out if there is one for your city, or if you could set one up. I know if I type in "Atlanta Martial Arts" in Google, I get that directory, and it makes everything so easy.

[Notintheface]

SoCo KungFu


You are absolutely correct. But as you said, McDojo got there first. And you just can't fight reputation. You can only fight to change it

Soco do you think the average person comprehends or even knows what a MC Dojo is? You and I are in the know. We understand what to look for and what to avoid. The average consumer doesn't know what is great martial arts even if it up and kicked them in the nuts.

For example.

Consumer X walks into a small kwoon that has a few students, no one walks up to talk to them, just get handed a flyer and then they are told they could sit and watch a class.

Consumer X walks into MC Dojo x-press 2000. They are greeted by a sales rep in a shiny pressed uniform. He offers to give Mr. X a tour of the school. Mr. X gets a chances to see the clean and spacious locker rooms, the immaculate bathroom, the well padded floors, the nice mirrors, and all the training equipment hung neatly with care.

but that is not all, the sales rep then sits them down, using visuals aids, and explains the many different contracts, payment methods, discounts, family group prices and extra curricular activities the school does as a family.

Where do you think the average person will go despite the Mc Dojo prices?

Usually, when someone enters a martial arts club they have little to no background or understanding of what MA is or how a school should look. They usually sign up for classes depending on how convincing the sales rep is, on word/advice of a friend of family member already training in the school, demeanor of the instructors, relative closeness from their home to club or finally based upon which club they can afford.

We, well most of us, are fanatics when it comes to martial arts. we will go visit a school several times and chat up the teachers. We will view a beginners class and ask if we could view or sit in on an advance class. We will look people up on the internet. Ask our martial arts buddies about the school we are researching.

(SoCo KungFu and I don't mean to imply that you are this type of person. I am just generalizing as to my many years or minutes of playing house )

People like us can either be a boon to a school or a pariah. We become a pariah when we become so close to our teachers that we forget that they are running a business. They think it is ok to pay tuition dues late. Since our teacher considers us family he lets it slide. Sometimes these people, the pariah, starts a tab at the school for drinks, snacks , shakes and the like and have to be chased down weeks later to pay the tab.

These are the same people who come with the imaginary notion the a "traditional teacher' taught for the love of the art and shouldn't be in it for the "money."

When you have a student like this my advice is to cut and burn him. This person will contaminate your school and bring down moral. All martial clubs claim to teach discipline and IMO fiscal discipline has to be taught. You don't have money for this months tuition... fine you have 5 days plus a late fee, if that is not ok, come back when you have the funds and you will be allowed to continue training.

If you do not have money aerobics class, health club, or for your civil war reenactment camp, they you are not allowed to participate. but then again I am a cold hearted ******* what do I know :)

[yu shan]

Oso, you know my game plan but for the sake of discussion... I coach Tanglang boxing part-time. Got the full-time day job to pay the bills and provide family insurance. And just celebrated 30 years with my company so now there are even more added perks. In my previous style, Wah Lum, Master Chan never said many nice things to his students. One thing I will never foget was him actually complimenting me on the way I handled my kung fu business affairs. He said I was very smart by keeping my job during the day and teaching at night. So that is how I have kept it over the years. And it has worked wonderful. I keep my overhead low, rent space from a hall. Well insured and have a nice web-site. Just cannot decorate and put in a fancy weapons rack.

Now I have also purposely tried to keep things stress free, like no contracts, sign up fees or mandatory uniform purchase. I charge $75 a month. I have cut back on classes as of late. I am down to 6 hours a week, but a good 6 hours. We have a lot of material to offer for this low price. I really should charge more but I am happy making this kind of money. One of the reasons for cutting back on classes, peeps these days have other things to do in their lives and so do I. Mine being my own personal training, I have a lot of material to train so I need my own time. Over the last few years I have cut back from 5 classes to 3 a week. Attendance is up and interest is up. People seem to like the extra time to do all the other things in life. Plus it gives time for the bruises to heal up. I have been told by my Shibo, you need a night off in between the banging.

All this being said, I have recently lost my training space. It was unanimous vote by students to train in the park for the rest of the summer. So I said OK, but will keep my feelers out for a space for the fall. Winters are brutal here, just cannot train outside and think I will keep students. I have a core group of 20, with the usual eb and flow of 5 to 10 on top of these. So for the summer it is rent free, and it is nice. Truthfully, this training in the park is taking some getting use to on my part. I have always had nice training halls and it is sort of comforting. Oh well it seems like most of the better Tanglang is taught in parks in Taiwan/Mainland.

I have this opportunity to rent space from a very large Church in the area. Top of the line space, with 3500 enrollment in Church. I just have to make sure I do not have a thumb down on me, just dont want to get into the situation where someone is controlling us. I have always kept things stress free, just show up and train.

Oso, unfortunately in your area it is saturated with martial arts. You have a lot to offer though and you have a great core group.

BTW, the money I make from coaching, I re-invest back into the school by furthering my studies and handing my Shibo a nice red envelope.

Thanks for the props SoCo Kungfu.

[SoCo KungFu]

SoCo KungFu



Soco do you think the average person comprehends or even knows what a MC Dojo is? You and I are in the know. We understand what to look for and what to avoid. The average consumer doesn't know what is great martial arts even if it up and kicked them in the nuts.

I think the average consumer is smarter now than 10 years ago when it comes to MA. They might not all know who Cung Le is, what MMA or San Shou means. But most people have internet, TV and UFC is becoming more and more known thanks to Spike TV. Maybe they don't know all the signs, but I don't think people are THAT easy to fool anymore. At least not forever.

For example.

Consumer X walks into a small kwoon that has a few students, no one walks up to talk to them, just get handed a flyer and then they are told they could sit and watch a class.

Consumer X walks into MC Dojo x-press 2000. They are greeted by a sales rep in a shiny pressed uniform. He offers to give Mr. X a tour of the school. Mr. X gets a chances to see the clean and spacious locker rooms, the immaculate bathroom, the well padded floors, the nice mirrors, and all the training equipment hung neatly with care.

but that is not all, the sales rep then sits them down, using visuals aids, and explains the many different contracts, payment methods, discounts, family group prices and extra curricular activities the school does as a family.

Where do you think the average person will go despite the Mc Dojo prices?

You don't have to be McDojo to have a nice school. When my Sifu first started, he taught out of a Karate Dojo. I remember when he finally had enough to get his own place. I was there everyday helping him renovate; tearin down walls, construction, painting. I take some pride in that. You don't have to be McDojo to make a good impression. Like I said, the training speaks for itself. If a guy wants to learn to fight and do some nice competition, is he going to stick around a place if all the pictures are kids forms comp? Its not THAT hard to tell McDojo. Internet makes it easy to check out a school before you join.


Usually, when someone enters a martial arts club they have little to no background or understanding of what MA is or how a school should look. They usually sign up for classes depending on how convincing the sales rep is, on word/advice of a friend of family member already training in the school, demeanor of the instructors, relative closeness from their home to club or finally based upon which club they can afford.

If you have choices. Most places I been its pretty much determined by location period. If you have some choices in your town then yeah. But you don't have to be McDojo to have a nice school. And the way a school "looks" is partly determined by the area its located anyways. If your town isn't the best neighborhood, its probably not going to look like Bally Fitness. And the people in that neighborhood probably aren't going to care (as much), cuz you know, its just their neighborhood.

We, well most of us, are fanatics when it comes to martial arts. we will go visit a school several times and chat up the teachers. We will view a beginners class and ask if we could view or sit in on an advance class. We will look people up on the internet. Ask our martial arts buddies about the school we are researching.

(SoCo KungFu and I don't mean to imply that you are this type of person. I am just generalizing as to my many years or minutes of playing house )

I'm a big boy, my feelings aren't hurt so easy:p

People like us can either be a boon to a school or a pariah. We become a pariah when we become so close to our teachers that we forget that they are running a business. They think it is ok to pay tuition dues late. Since our teacher considers us family he lets it slide. Sometimes these people, the pariah, starts a tab at the school for drinks, snacks , shakes and the like and have to be chased down weeks later to pay the tab.

These are the same people who come with the imaginary notion the a "traditional teacher' taught for the love of the art and shouldn't be in it for the "money."

When you have a student like this my advice is to cut and burn him. This person will contaminate your school and bring down moral. All martial clubs claim to teach discipline and IMO fiscal discipline has to be taught. You don't have money for this months tuition... fine you have 5 days plus a late fee, if that is not ok, come back when you have the funds and you will be allowed to continue training.

Man you are too easy on em. Sifu expects months tuition on the first class of the month. You don't step on the floor til he hands you the receipt. You don't pay you go home until you can :D And I agree I've seen those types before and it never ends in a good way. And just leads to more frustration to the Sifu.

If you do not have money aerobics class, health club, or for your civil war reenactment camp, they you are not allowed to participate. but then again I am a cold hearted ******* what do I know :)
Nah I know what you're sayin and I agree. Its a business and you got to eat. Its a tough business. I agree with you and the others here on a lot of points. I've just seen how a contract can go bad. And I don't think consumers are so clueless anymore. They might not be experts. But you know...times are tight. A lot of people got to be a lot more careful with their money. Gas sucks, which makes it that much harder for a school in a bad location. Contracts are just one more thing that will eat at the back of the head to a possible new recruit. And I don't think its just about the money. I just think its one of those things that contracts in a sense, people feel like they are letting go of some of their control in a situation when they have to sign a contract. People don't like to be out of control, esp. when their money is involved.


Honestly I don't disagree with you. I think maybe my idea of McDojo might be a bit different than yours. I don't instantly think a school is McDojo if its got a nice shower and a clean floor and wants payment up front. I think its McDojo if the content is catered to pumping out as many "blackbelts" as possible. If the teacher is shy to teach adults because he can't back up his training functionally. Things like that, and its not that hard to see if you just look, experienced or not. I just think with contracts, you have to be careful. If there is some of probation period with an opt out clause or something then it wouldn't be bad. And I think Oso's training will carry its weight with both the forms guys and fighters alike now that I've seen his format. Now that I've read more of his posts I think he'll be alright. I probably shouldn't have put in my thoughts since it really doesn't help the thread. And if it doesn't work out can always go back to the previous method. I think at this point its better if I just check out of the thread. Business makes my head hurt anyways :D Its interesting to read you guys though, I learned some things. I just wish Oso the best with the new program. I'm sure it will be all good

[Notintheface]

I've just seen how a contract can go bad. And I don't think consumers are so clueless anymore.

Yeah, lol sell the contract that is left for 75% of what it is worth to a agency the buys out delinquent accounts and let them deal with it.


I think its McDojo if the content is catered to pumping out as many "blackbelts" as possible

I agree!



I just think with contracts, you have to be careful. If there is some of probation period with an opt out clause or something then it wouldn't be bad. most contracts have a three day clause to cancel and also can be fought if the provider has not met the promised services. But if you sign a contract and don't continue because you don't feel like going, got bored, or whatever does not mean you shouldn't complete your side of the agreement.

If you go to college and then all of a sudden you drop out of have a certain time frame to get back your money at percentages. You paid the money up front but cost will be deducted from time you spent in class. You do not hear anyone saying "Oh I got bored and school isn't for me so I want all my money back."

If I hire a cleaning service at a term of 6 months but at the third month I decide that i don't want my place cleaned anymore, I still owe that cleaning service the cash for what I promised to pay them for.

The school contract is no different. I offer to charge you less, give you discounts, or whatever is included in the contract only if you agree to sign on for a full year.
You weigh your options and make your decision and you should abide by it. I guarantee if the teacher closed shop the next day and left town you would try your hardest to get back the initial payment for service not rendered.




I probably shouldn't have put in my thoughts since it really doesn't help the thread. And if it doesn't work out can always go back to the previous method. I think at this point its better if I just check out of the thread.

Dude, it makes for a great debate and your points were just as valid as mine. You have your experiences and I have mine and that is what shapes our perceptions about experiences. I am sure Oso will be fine and fine some kind of middle ground from this discussion.

[Oso]

An option: as a student, it's sometimes hard to find locations of schools. If you have your own website, that's good. But you need a way to get to your website. Here, in Atlanta, there's something called the Atlanta Martial Arts Directory which lists schools from all different styles, CMA, JMA, IMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, etc. It's very easy, and the directory links to the websites of the schools. You might want to find out if there is one for your city, or if you could set one up. I know if I type in "Atlanta Martial Arts" in Google, I get that directory, and it makes everything so easy.

i do have my own website and my school name is "Asheville Martial Arts" so I get found by web searchers...I get a good number of hits every day.


great discussion guys, thanks....i'm hella tired and to top it all off, I got hit in the legs with an errant firework which preceeded to blow up right there...it was green.

gonna go wipe the soot and burnt hair off and go to bed.

[xcakid]

Just talking about me personally, I would not sticking around if my school transitioned over to contracts. I don't like the feeling of "obligation" I'm a grown man. I should be able to make choices.

Now on the other hand, I have been an instructor and know how the cycle goes in owning a MA school.

I think a happy medium can be attained by having both contracts and monthly. Just charged higher for the monthly people. Call it a processing cost (your time in keeping the books and chasing them down for a check/cash)

There is a school here in Dallas run by Master Lee and teaches Myjong Lawhorn. Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. ;) I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.

[Oso]

Oso, not sure where you live, but I have alot of people that commute to work in the city. They can't do a 9-5 with an hour and a half commute and make a 630 class, so I bumped it up to 7:15. You may want to try that.

IME, I've never had a student that truly wanted to train later than 8. There have been several times I've considered changing class times and polled my students.

I use a billing service-shop around for the best prices. I chose Member Solutions, as their price was low, and they offered free consulting and support. And they did not push their own agendas.

I'll take a look at them. A buddy of mine uses affiliated.com with good, cheap success.

I try to use direct deposit as much as possible. At first, I was shy to ask, as I felt it was an intrusion of their privacy-you know, having access to their acct or credit card. I eventually woke up and learned that this is the way most people actually prefer to do business. PLUS-it takes you out of the equation as a seller.You do not handle the finances and you keep your teacher/student rleationship.
TT

that's the other issue I want to get out of. Had to have an awkward conversation with a parent the other day who acknowledged that she was late and told me she'd get 'around to it'.... it's not a financial issue for the family, I work with those...she just hadn't 'gotten around to it'.

[Oso]

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775647]
Anyways, Oso I understand you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the rent. And I think your training will speak for itself in regards to your current students. The ones that are you core will probably stay regardless...maybe sceptic at first but when they see that for them its not much a change since they are showing up anyways, I think they will fall in and support the kwoon. And the ones that might leave are probably the drifters that would probably have found another reason to leave anyways.

that's true

As to your ad problems. Park demos are cool. I think because people there are lounging and have the time to drift their attention to you or they are there running or working out anyways so they might be more receptive. We used to do mall demos but still it didn't really bring in much. When we tried flyers, coupons etc. We tallied up once and for like every 300 or so flyers/coupons that we'd put out, we'd get 1 prospective return (by that I mean someone calling or walking in to at least talk, that didn't mean they'd sign up). It was just inneficient. Are you using things like yellowpages.com or yellowbook and stuff like that? I know my current sifu and the BJJ gym I am trying to get to now I found both in yellowpages.com

I've just missed the opportunity to get in both the 'yellow' books. not enough money, never has been.

Also do you have a school website?

www.ashevillemartialarts.com

If you can't front the cost to print a crap ton of flyers. Try something cheap like make a big sign and bring it when you do the park demos. Have your school info on it too. Then put a printable coupon or something on the website. Granted it might not be as good as a hand out right there on spot. But if they were really interested enough then I don't see it such a stretch that they'd go home and check you out online. And I agree with Notintheface. Def at least have someone around to act as PR rep. Even if you can't hand out stuff, someone to greet passerby's and such. A good friendly face to make the first contact with those interested.

we've done park workouts in the past and handed out flyers...but, in a two hour time frame we've never had more than a handful of people stop long enough to talk to. and, we've never had a single follow up off of them.

Well, best to you. PL has a lot to offer as a system and I hope you do well. I used to admire you guys cuz in the crappy FL tournies, they were some of the only guys really trying to do the mantis in the San Shou floor. Sometimes it didn't always work so well but they were there testing their kung fu and you got to respect that.

:) I think you're still getting the PL's mixed up. There are a lot of Wah Lum people in Pong Lai (K. Brazier, yu shan & 18elders here used to train WL) :)

[Oso]

Dude, it makes for a great debate and your points were just as valid as mine. You have your experiences and I have mine and that is what shapes our perceptions about experiences. I am sure Oso will be fine and fine some kind of middle ground from this discussion.

Yea, great discussion/debate...thanks to all for their input. Sorry to start this and sorta bail but I start moving (my household) tonight after class and won't have internet at home till the 20th.

I have indeed picked up some angles to think about and much food for thought.

thanks again, Matt

[Notintheface]

Xcakid

Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.

Well, this is when you decide what kind of client you wan to attract. I'll be honest , When I run a school I do not want clients who waffle. If they start on. "Why don't you have a month to month non-contract." I already know that they will not be all that long. They will leave for extended periods of time and come back months later to talk and say " I am so coming back soon watch." I's much rather lose those people all together. They are not worth the headache. It has nothing to do with being nice or mean, it is just business.

If you want to deal with those kind of people. Then I suggest you have 3,6,12 month plan up front for them. Get all the money up front. If they leave and come back have a freeze option for them. If they do only 2 months out of the three month plan they still have one month left for when ever they come back.



There is a school here in Dallas run by Master Lee and teaches Myjong Lawhorn. Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.


No, it is not a good deal for the student and it is not designed to be that way. Plus, as a financial planner you very well know that you get what you pay for.
I suggest Oso worry more about his constant paying clients that keep the doors open and worry less about those who come and go. Those who come and go get the money out of them before they decide to wander off again.

Teaching Martial arts is not like most pay for service business. You have to stay ahead of the curve in order to stay open and make a profit. Why spend time teaching if you are only breaking even, you are stressed, your own training is being hampered, and your time is being consumed. Teaching Martial arts is a dream job for those who spent their lives enjoying their favorite pass time.

Plus xcakid, If you would have told me your situation I would have directed you towards your local YMCA. I would also have said, "So I will cater to your needs and just sit here and wait for you to come back and pay me.. I am sure my landlord will understand:rolleyes:"

[Notintheface]

hat's the other issue I want to get out of. Had to have an awkward conversation with a parent the other day who acknowledged that she was late and told me she'd get 'around to it'.... it's not a financial issue for the family, I work with those...she just hadn't 'gotten around to it'.

Put up a big ass sign up.....




YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT



She is a grown woman and she should know better. She does not consider you a priority because there is no repercussions to not paying on time. Add a late fee and the option of not allowing the child to participate if tuition is not on time. She has to see you as more than her kids teacher/babysitter. Show her that your school is more than a hang out and make her understand that it is a business.

[SoCo KungFu]

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;775727]

:) I think you're still getting the PL's mixed up. There are a lot of Wah Lum people in Pong Lai (K. Brazier, yu shan & 18elders here used to train WL) :)

Nah you do PL now so that's what I consider you. I don't know enough about your other background to consider you otherwise :)

Put up a big ass sign up.....




YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT

Ha yeah, that's just like the one at Sifu Saleem's place. Except his has a little Elmer Fudd looking guy with a sad face cuz he's turning out his empty pockets:p


Oso you got a nice website. I like the colors, somebody must be a fengshui expert :)

Lots of pics are nice. When my friends come to me about a school they found the thing they always comment on is the pics. If there is a lot, it gives em that much better an impression. When there isn't thats when they get clueless to an art and have to ask me lots of questions.

If I can comment, I'd like to see more stuff from the grappling class and adults class. Maybe if you can get an action shot or two from the adults sparring :)

All in all real nice. They say a pics worth a thousand words but when half those words are Chinese they are just that much more valuable.

How often do you meet up with Sifu Darryl D? I haven't seen him in a few years.

[yu shan]

SoCo

Not sure if Matt knows Darryl (Orlando) very well. I think they might have met while training with Kevin Brazier.

"she hasnt gotten around to it"!? Some people show no respect, but you should not punish the kid over the idiot Mom.

I give my people up to the 15th of the month to come up with tuition, and believe it or not, I still have some tardiness.

One of my goals is to change up my gallery more often, and to put up some clips of students training. One of my students is a computer guru so I look forward to putting some stuff out there, web-site and youtube.

[Notintheface]

You are a kind person Yu shan. The mother would act more quickly if the child is unhappy:) PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE.... hell I'll have the child come in and stand off to the side and have the other kids point and laugh...maybe a big red letter of some kind they could wear. j/k or am I :eek:

[Notintheface]

One of my goals is to change up my gallery more often, and to put up some clips of students training. One of my students is a computer guru so I look forward to putting some stuff out there, web-site and youtube.
__________________

Invest in a good video camera, web editing software, video editing software and make a deal with the student. Instead of it being a favor make it a barter. If it is a barter the need to finish it or have it done with expedience is usually higher. IMO

[yu shan]

I have stone-aged equipment that is for sure. Couple of guys in class have the state of the art stuff, I will use your advice.

You got a point about the kid pitchin` a fit, I had a good laugh about making fun of the kid, could be tempting. That God I dont have a kids class... too much drama for me, and that is just from the friggen parents.

[Oso]

Put up a big ass sign up.....




YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT

there isn't a sign but it's in the tuition agreement and on the invoices they all get every month.


She is a grown woman and she should know better. She does not consider you a priority because there is no repercussions to not paying on time. Add a late fee

there is one: $5 if not paid on time plus $1 a day. After this past month I've been thinking of upping it to the same range as a credit card would, like $25.

and the option of not allowing the child to participate if tuition is not on time. She has to see you as more than her kids teacher/babysitter. Show her that your school is more than a hang out and make her understand that it is a business.


I hear you and this is where I get hung up, at least with kids...I actually don't have any kids that aren't serious about the kung fu....well, there is one but anyway...and in this instance both her kids are awesome...not necessarily in ability but they both work very hard in class and are totally stoked to be doing it.

I just don't have it in me to not let a kid come to class when they so want to but their parents are slackers.

[Oso]

[QUOTE=Oso;775890]

Nah you do PL now so that's what I consider you. I don't know enough about your other background to consider you otherwise :)

...a bit o hung gar, a bit o northern shaolin, a bit of southern shaolin, a bit o tai chi w/ some xingyi and bagua on the side...wrestling and some judo and jujitsu. :)

Ha yeah, that's just like the one at Sifu Saleem's place. Except his has a little Elmer Fudd looking guy with a sad face cuz he's turning out his empty pockets:p


Oso you got a nice website. I like the colors, somebody must be a fengshui expert :)

she's a great graphic designer. the mantis is a 3-D model she built from scratch.

Lots of pics are nice. When my friends come to me about a school they found the thing they always comment on is the pics. If there is a lot, it gives em that much better an impression. When there isn't thats when they get clueless to an art and have to ask me lots of questions.

If I can comment, I'd like to see more stuff from the grappling class and adults class. Maybe if you can get an action shot or two from the adults sparring :)

the grappling class is just a month old so not much to show yet.
i've got some vids to post on youtube to distribute out, there's a couple there now but I haven't had them imbedded in the website yet

here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=xiongfa

but, I am working on getting more vid and clips out asap. there will be a pic update in a week or two.





All in all real nice. They say a pics worth a thousand words but when half those words are Chinese they are just that much more valuable.

How often do you meet up with Sifu Darryl D? I haven't seen him in a few years.


I've just met Darryl at a seminar with K. Brazier last year, I think.

[n00854180t]

I hear you and this is where I get hung up, at least with kids...I actually don't have any kids that aren't serious about the kung fu....well, there is one but anyway...and in this instance both her kids are awesome...not necessarily in ability but they both work very hard in class and are totally stoked to be doing it.

I just don't have it in me to not let a kid come to class when they so want to but their parents are slackers.

Methinks that case might be solved with a little bit of coordinated guilt-tripping of the parents. Get together with the kids and have them bring it up to their parents, coach them on some stuff about the rents' lackadaisical attitude ruining the chance for them to learn discipline and respect etc etc. Maybe augmented by a little pressure on the parents directly in terms of just saying how it is, that it's your business and you need to be paid to keep everything running.

[Oso]

Methinks that case might be solved with a little bit of coordinated guilt-tripping of the parents. Get together with the kids and have them bring it up to their parents, coach them on some stuff about the rents' lackadaisical attitude ruining the chance for them to learn discipline and respect etc etc.

uh,....no! that would make me no better than the parents.


Maybe augmented by a little pressure on the parents directly in terms of just saying how it is, that it's your business and you need to be paid to keep everything running.

that's what i do.

[n00854180t]

uh,....no! that would make me no better than the parents.

I thought you said they were slackers? That would just make you sneaky. *shrugs* I imagine the kids would do so without prompting if they had a good grip on how parents work. Besides, it's not as if it would be a dishonorable motive.


that's what i do.

[Oso]

now you're trying to take this to a philosophical level:p

kids SHOULDN'T understand how bad their parents are while they are still kids. in this case there is a 10 year old and a 17 year old....if it were just the 17 year old I might go there but not with the 10 year old involved.

i'm a sap...the innocence of children should be preserved.

[n00854180t]

now you're trying to take this to a philosophical level:p

Guilty.


kids SHOULDN'T understand how bad their parents are while they are still kids. Hrm... I don't know, I mean, learning that sooner rather than late might be an excellent way to demonstrate the concept of *leverage* :P
in this case there is a 10 year old and a 17 year old....if it were just the 17 year old I might go there but not with the 10 year old involved.

i'm a sap...the innocence of children should be preserved.

Actually, I'd assumed they were significantly younger than that for some reason(say...5-10). *innocent* I'm actually of the opposite bent, kids should IMO be taught the harsh realities as early as possible so they can more effectively manipulate events in their favor. I imagine though, that the 17 yo at least probably already knows somewhat of how such things work.

[Oso]

Guilty.
Hrm... I don't know, I mean, learning that sooner rather than late might be an excellent way to demonstrate the concept of *leverage* :P

could be but should someone else be the catalyst?


Actually, I'd assumed they were significantly younger than that for some reason(say...5-10). *innocent* I'm actually of the opposite bent, kids should IMO be taught the harsh realities as early as possible so they can more effectively manipulate events in their favor.

I could argue for that as well. But, I don't believe it's my place to facilitate it.

I imagine though, that the 17 yo at least probably already knows somewhat of how such things work.

he's not ignorant of it but...well, the situation is unusual to say the least and I do feel that these kids participation in my school will be fundamental to them...becoming more 'self aware'...???...:confused: ... so, yea, I'm guilty of thinking that exposure to martial arts will help these kids be more capable of dealing with ________________. *edited for content* ;)

[n00854180t]

could be but should someone else be the catalyst?Probably a good idea.

I could argue for that as well. But, I don't believe it's my place to facilitate it.Indeed, angering the parents wouldn't benefit anyone. They'll learn it the same way everyone else does sooner or later anyway.


he's not ignorant of it but...well, the situation is unusual to say the least and I do feel that these kids participation in my school will be fundament
al to them...becoming more 'self aware'...???...:confused: ... so, yea, I'm guilty of thinking that exposure to martial arts will help these kids be more capable of dealing with ________________. *edited for content* ;)
If their tuition becomes a problem and you feel that not teaching them would indeed be detrimental, you could consider giving the elder a part time job to help cover things, I suppose. Though obviously that doesn't help much if you're having problems with keeping the school funded.

[Oso]

Probably a good idea.

hard to say positively though. fate vs. destiny and all that.



Indeed, angering the parents wouldn't benefit anyone. They'll learn it the same way everyone else does sooner or later anyway.

true.

If their tuition becomes a problem and you feel that not teaching them would indeed be detrimental, you could consider giving the elder a part time job to help cover things, I suppose. Though obviously that doesn't help much if you're having problems with keeping the school funded.

no it doesn't help the bills.

but, as long as I'm teaching, I'll teach those that need to be taught no matter what.

some may see that as, well, I don't know what. But, I think that is a truth for teachers anywhere...be it a kung fu school, boxing gym, dance school...whatever.

[n00854180t]

no it doesn't help the bills.

but, as long as I'm teaching, I'll teach those that need to be taught no matter what.

some may see that as, well, I don't know what. But, I think that is a truth for teachers anywhere...be it a kung fu school, boxing gym, dance school...whatever.
Agreed. At the very least you'll be instilling these students with some virtue that will help them later in life. I think if they're inclined to help others out in the same way, and teach (be it kf or whatever) others without reservation, then it's all worth it.

[Oso]

Agreed. :)



Next question: Does anyone offer a couple of day trial before having people sign up for the annual membership?

[TenTigers]

I offer a free intro, and if I think the person needs it, I will offer a either a few more free classes, or a free week pass. I also have free week passes, which I pass out to my students to give to their friends.
One more body on the floor doesn't cost you anything, and if it means signing them up, why not? The message it sends to the prospect is that you are NOT a McDojo/Kwoon, but more interested in THEIR well-being, rather than their MONEY.
I have a personal approach when teaching my students, working hands on with them and making sure they are never feeling neglected, or simply another number. The worst thing is having a large class, with the guys in the back row, flopping around like flounders, with the teacher in the front,calling out orders. I have a senior in the front, while I walk around making spot corrections, making sure I hit each and every student. This is what "sells" them on the school and not a slick, fast talking,used car salesman approach.
well, at least this is what feels rightto me. At the end of the day, when I look at my guys, and when I look in the mirror, I need to feel I am doing the right thing.

[Oso]

I offer a free intro, and if I think the person needs it, I will offer a either a few more free classes, or a free week pass. I also have free week passes, which I pass out to my students to give to their friends.
One more body on the floor doesn't cost you anything, and if it means signing them up, why not? The message it sends to the prospect is that you are NOT a McDojo/Kwoon, but more interested in THEIR well-being, rather than their MONEY.

Check. I get that idea.

I used to do that but NEVER signed a student up of off a free intro. I Switched to an "Introductory Special" of $65 for the first month including uniform. My feeling is this gave them more time to get a feel for things, put them in the uniform (just pants and shirt) and wasn't asking for a hunk of change or a long term commitment.

I have a personal approach when teaching my students, working hands on with them and making sure they are never feeling neglected, or simply another number. The worst thing is having a large class, with the guys in the back row, flopping around like flounders, with the teacher in the front,calling out orders. I have a senior in the front, while I walk around making spot corrections, making sure I hit each and every student. This is what "sells" them on the school and not a slick, fast talking,used car salesman approach.

We don't have very large classes and our space would only hold 16-18 tops anyway. So, I'm usually mixing in with drills and such anyway. Each students definitely gets some personal input from me every class. Plus, I still spar with every single student I have.


well, at least this is what feels rightto me. At the end of the day, when I look at my guys, and when I look in the mirror, I need to feel I am doing the right thing.

me too. up till now I haven't felt like contracts were the right thing. however, I keep getting the short end of the stick by people who won't follow through on verbal commitments.