!953 Kung Fu Fight on Yutube

[Firehawk4]

There are some other fights Karate versus Kung Fu , Kung Fu versus Tai Kwon Do Ect..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0&mode=related&search=

[HOKPAIWES]

This clip gets posted onto most martial art forums very often. If you are familiar with TWC and TCC it is an awsome fight.

[lkfmdc]

it is an awsome fight



if you think that is an awesome fight, you've got issues :confused:

[golden arhat]

if you think that is an awesome fight, you've got issues :confused:

+1

watch ufc more

[HOKPAIWES]

if you think that is an awesome fight, you've got issues :confused:


I stand behind my comment. Did you sleep through all the tow chois connecting with Ngs' core?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe they connected, but apparently had little effect.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No TWC in that fight whatsoever. (Traditional Wing Chun)

[HOKPAIWES]

TWC, Tibetan White Crane.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Maybe they connected, but apparently had little effect.

It looked like two old men to me. I doubt they were going full force.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find that fight lacking quite a bit of chi.

[lkfmdc]

I stand behind my comment. Did you sleep through all sissy girly slaps in the sad pathetic demonstration of why people need to spar, not do just tons of forms

That aside :D I happen to know for a fact that Chan Hak Fu was totally embarassed, not at all proud, of his performance. He subsequently made all his students spar with boxing gloves.

This is a great example of how deluded and out of touch TCMA people are... he thinks that is a great fight!

[HOKPAIWES]

It looked like two old men to me. I doubt they were going full force.


Ng was 54. CH Fu was 27, still alive and overseeing a school.

[TenTigers]

"'Ng was 54. CH Fu was 27, still alive and overseeing a school"

I'm hoping that was a typo:p

I have heard that this was an exhibition match. Does anyone actually have all the details?

[lkfmdc]

It is a fantastic example of how backward the TCMA world was at the time. Everyone was worried these two "masters" were going to kill eachother prior to the match! LMFAO, as you can see, they fought like two beginning students who have never sparred before....

The fight got stopped over a bloody nose! Yeah, the referee said "where the blood goes, the chi goes, and if he continues to bleed he might die"

YEAH - they stopped a fight over a bloody nose! Because it was "deadly" :rolleyes:

I see more blood on a daily basis in the gym. I have kids with 3 months training who would have KO'ed either one of them.

Like I said, Chan Hak Fu was embarassed adn ashamed and changed the way he trained students after this

It isnt' something to hold up as a great example

[SifuAbel]

.

This is a great example of how deluded and out of touch TCMA people are... he thinks that is a great fight!
Would you please put the word "some" in there. thank you. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Would you please put the word "some" in there. thank you. :rolleyes:


ok, so why don't those tcma people who see this fight as a f-in embarassment educate this person and speak up?

[HOKPAIWES]

It must just be by some miracle that Hak Fus' students became reputable fighters.

[lkfmdc]

It must just be by some miracle that Hak Fus' students became reputable fighters.

you must be retarded, yes? The fact that Chan Hak Fu's students became fighters is because after this disgrace, he CHANGED THE WAY HE TRAINED.... I already said that TWICE. I guess you missed that part? :rolleyes:

Agian, if you think this is a awesome fight, you must be retarded....

[HOKPAIWES]

Wow!!
:):):):):)

[SifuAbel]

ok, so why don't those tcma people who see this fight as a f-in embarassment educate this person and speak up?

They do, You do , I do, many CMAists do, but they don't listen.


It doesn't have anything to do with you globalizing us ALL into their ranks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That video linked to perhaps the greatest fight in the history of all mankind. It was practically epic.

[lkfmdc]

That video linked to perhaps the greatest fight in the history of all mankind. It was practically epic.

Location: Permanent state of Denial

[SifuAbel]

No, I think that was the state of sarcasm.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just out of curiousity, LKFDMC, how do you know the background to this fight, and how the guy changed his cirriculum? I'm not doubting you. Just curious, as it was a very long time ago.

[HOKPAIWES]

"'Ng was 54. CH Fu was 27, still alive and overseeing a school"

I'm hoping that was a typo:p

I have heard that this was an exhibition match. Does anyone actually have all the details?

Chan was considered as a junior student in the system (not a master)at the time of the fight, later in life he became a figurehead. It was a demo fight that took place Jan/17/54, there was some "bad blood" between the 2 fighters as many rumors were being thrown around so the demo match was an emotional one. The fight was stopped to prevent real injury as the fighters were starting to forget the "rules", the video quality being so poor doesn't reveal the blood. Chi magazine autumm 2002 has a big spread(29 pages) detailing the fight, origin and drama sorrounding it. They give Ngs' age as "53" and Chan Hak Fus' as "nearly 30).

The reason I like the fight as a TWC guy is many of our strikes and timing loops are being carried out out right here. I don't ccare they didn't get ko'd or choked out. At one point Hak Fu uses a rain storm of overhands to get control of the center of the ring, or the fist hook sending Ng into the ropes for example is what I enjoy seeing. The system has changed some since the fight yes, but it is the order in which things are presented rather than the actual changing of the art. Our seed punches are the same today as they were in the video.

[David Jamieson]

the fight was castrated by rules and the "fighters" clearly weren't really fighters.

Frankly I know some 17 year olds that would dominate ground and pound both of those demonstrators. :p

not kidding. :)

that was a terrible display of "kungfu" and is not representative of decent tcma in my opinion.

[golden arhat]

the fight was castrated by rules and the "fighters" clearly weren't really fighters.

Frankly I know some 17 year olds that would dominate ground and pound both of those demonstrators. :p

not kidding. :)

that was a terrible display of "kungfu" and is not representative of decent tcma in my opinion.

lol yeah like me or any one of my mates

[golden arhat]

Our seed punches are the same today as they were in the video.

wow i'm sorry ...i mean that must suck for you
seriously i feel sorry for u u must get pounded on all the time

once again

sorry about that

[HOKPAIWES]

wow i'm sorry ...i mean that must suck for you
seriously i feel sorry for u u must get pounded on all the time

once again

sorry about that


It is ok, there is a long history of us being pounded on all the time. It all started somewhere around here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Yan-Lam

and then just kind of gets worse for us here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_%28martial_art%29

[lkfmdc]

Please don't invoke Wong yan Lam in your pathetic defense of this....

What's even funnier is your si gung originally talked trash about Lama Pai and about Wong yan Lam, then I guess you figured affiliation would make you seem tougher :rolleyes:

[HOKPAIWES]

Please don't invoke Wong yan Lam in your pathetic defense of this....

What's even funnier is your si gung originally talked trash about Lama Pai and about Wong yan Lam, then I guess you figured affiliation would make you seem tougher :rolleyes:

I posted those links for the history and information in them hoping Golden would read them and see that his comment was a little off the marker. Wong Lam was a legend and at one time used the roots of ours and your practice to get there. The politics you bring up I am going to ignore.

You say this match is so bad, well lets here your side? I can see many things that were right here for Tai Chi and crane.

Notice the probing feed that Ng fell for 3 times in a row then paid the price with a kick landing in his belly. Or how Ng triangled in on Fu right at the start landing the short uppercut jab busting his nose? When this video comes up none ever says, wow nice slam to the nose, they only make comments about 2 old drunkards flailing like girls when they see a volley of overhands.

[lkfmdc]

I will use your own post




The Pak Hok Pai I am fortunate enough to study comes from Chan Hak FU, Dr. George Long, Ron Dong, Dr. Garreth Smith then my Sifu Terry Wisenewski.

your line doesn't even go to Wong Yan Lam! Why invoke him when he isn't even in your line....

do you NOT realize he isn't in your line? :rolleyes:






The politics you bring up I am going to ignore.



Yeah, let's ignore the fact taht Gareth talked a lot of smack and got called on it big time. McGee Kwan, the Leung brothers and Chan Hak Fu himself denounced him. Wong Ching in San Francisco was going to send a guy to find him.

Funny, you want to invoke Wong Yan Lam when it suits your purposes, and ignore the fact your si gung trashed him in a public magazine?

[SifuAbel]

Regardless of the look of the fight. One thing we don't know is what the strikes felt like. We imagine that we would be tough, faster, stronger. etc. But its still an uncertainty. I was more disappointed in the wtc guy.

When I see this clip it reminds me of two things.

One, that people are commenting on one fight between two guys in a country of hundreds of millions as the epitemy of CMA for all time. Its sad really. Considering that, at the same time, others in the country would have killed them both.

Two, along with the above, this fight was between what would be considered here a grudge match at a high school between two local boys. It was a big deal to them. But it was made more by the coverage it received.

[HOKPAIWES]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact taht Gareth talked a lot of smack and got called on it big time. McGee Kwan, the Leung brothers and Chan Hak Fu himself denounced him. Wong Ching in San Francisco was going to send a guy to find him.
Funny, you want to invoke Wong Yan Lam when it suits your purposes, and ignore the fact your si gung trashed him in a public magazine?



Right, it was Wong Lam Hoi, sorry I had confused him with Wong Yan Lum. They both trained under Lung, My mistake. By my comment on ignoring politics, what I mean by that is I just want to talk about the fight. You could have simply asked if I ment to include Lam Hoi rather than Yan Lum since it was obvious I had mixed the 2 up. It's not like people havne't made this type of mistake fumbling of names before. I don't have any direct involvment of comments or bad blood between others in the past, my slate is clean on these matters.


Here is the link that should have gone in with the others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Lam-Hoi.

[HOKPAIWES]

Regardless of the look of the fight. One thing we don't know is what the strikes felt like. We imagine that we would be tough, faster, stronger. etc. But its still an uncertainty. I was more disappointed in the wtc guy.

When I see this clip it reminds me of two things.

One, that people are commenting on one fight between two guys in a country of hundreds of millions as the epitemy of CMA for all time. Its sad really. Considering that, at the same time, others in the country would have killed them both.

Two, along with the above, this fight was between what would be considered here a grudge match at a high school between two local boys. It was a big deal to them. But it was made more by the coverage it received.


These are good points you bring up and I agree. I just become frustrated over the endless battery of negative feedback it recieves. My intention here was to add some explanation to what was going on in the fight. I want people to understand that the swinging arms for example are real techniques and not just uncontroled "swinging arms" of some random hillbilly.

[PangQuan]

What gets me most about this video, and the repeated circulation of it on the net, is the fact that most people will use this video as a comparison of todays TCMA folk. Which IMO is completely rediculous.

Yes, I agree that this fight is not the most dynamic and exciting, nor the best show of skill or technique. I also understand that this was taken a very long time ago, and in no way represents the modern man.

Practitioners of traditional styles have a great boom in their studies compared to people in the past, as well as any other martial practitioner. Modern state of mass communication, the collecting and sharing of information gives people today many tools to use in their pursuit of martial studies.

Many people who have studied traditional styles in the past and have since moved to other styles or modern methods often see that they are "no longer TMAists". IMO I dont believe this to be the case. I believe the adaption, accumulation to be a truthful extension of TMA. At the root core of the study of combat, integration and evolution are key elements to having a successful system in place for study, experimentation, utilization and passing of knowledge.

These are my thoughts on this video in regards to TMA

[golden arhat]

It is ok, there is a long history of us being pounded on all the time. It all started somewhere around here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Yan-Lam

and then just kind of gets worse for us here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_%28martial_art%29

oh please

"my great great great great great granny was tough ergo we must all be amazing fighters and our system flawless"

get a clue

go train mma

[scholar]

There is still a direct way to test the validity of the many theories proposed about the 1954 fight. Anyone who wants to know about the skill of at least one of the contestants should look up Eddie Wu at www.wustyle.com and tell him what you think of his grandfather. Sifu Eddie learned from his grandfather from the age of six. That should settle it. :D

[lkfmdc]

There is still a direct way to test the validity of the many theories proposed about the 1954 fight. Anyone who wants to know about the skill of at least one of the contestants should look up Eddie Wu at www.wustyle.com and tell him what you think of his grandfather. Sifu Eddie learned from his grandfather from the age of six. That should settle it. :D

Judging by that web site, Wu Kung Yi was probably the last person to actually fight, so what is your point again? :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

I also understand that this was taken a very long time ago

I would not say that 1953 is a very long time ago to put this fight into the context that because of its age there would be a less amount of fighters.

Karate, Thai, Western Boxing, Savate, Sambo, Catch Wrestling, and even more specific a bunch of Judoka were all banging it out back then in ways that actually had the merit to call it a fight.

[Knifefighter]

There is still a direct way to test the validity of the many theories proposed about the 1954 fight. Anyone who wants to know about the skill of at least one of the contestants should look up Eddie Wu at www.wustyle.com and tell him what you think of his grandfather. Sifu Eddie learned from his grandfather from the age of six. That should settle it. :D

How exactly would that settle it?

[Knifefighter]

What gets me most about this video, and the repeated circulation of it on the net, is the fact that most people will use this video as a comparison of todays TCMA folk. Which IMO is completely rediculous.

No... what that is a representation of how the "masters" fought in the "olden days".

A perfect example to point people towards who think previous generations were more of the "real deal" than those of today.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No... what that is a representation of how the "masters" fought in the "olden days".

Reply]
Actually no, it's more of an early representation of the modern TCMA training platform. You would need video form pre 1928 fights to see what the "Olden Day" stuff was like. 1953 is too deep into the newer forms heavy teaching methods to count for that.

A perfect example to point people towards who think previous generations were more of the "real deal" than those of today.

Repoly]
No, it's not because, as I stated above, China as a whole had already shifted to the heavy forms format by then, and had been slowly doing so for decades.

If you want to see the real thing, you would have to get footage from the big Letai fights prior to 1928. At least then the forms heavy schools had not gone fully mainstream at that point, and there were still plenty of real fight schools around.

[firepalm]

Years ago that fight footage was used as part of a preview trailer & opening for a HK movie in which Chan Hakfu starred. I was in the Golden Harvest theater when it was shown, the audience was laughing histerically at the footage. No matter how you slice it, it was bad!:eek:

[xcakid]

...... Ron Dong, ......

Hey isn't that what the Japanese business man accuse his wife after coming home early.

Hey you holding ron dong. That dong of another man. I want divorce. :D

[PangQuan]

lol @ anything on video being a demonstration of "the olden days" Video wasnt around in the real golden days.
:rolleyes:

And yes, 1953 is a long time ago, when you are comparing the rate of adaption and world wide sharing of knowledge. Things tend to speed up and be more open when the entire world is watching.

I wasnt alive.

Most pro fighters you see today were not even twinkles in the eye's of their parents during that time. So in context with todays current active fighters, 1953 was before their lives, so it was in fact a long time ago.

These guys that fight now days are where the bar is set. Its in your face, its in the open, anyone can see the outcome and method development of modern fighters. our current champions in the arena of sport fighting are all products of our modern age and all that goes into the development of future affairs.

in 1953 the world was a very different place, the state of modern fighters is quite enough proof to show how much can change in 64 years. sure you may say that fighting has not changed in the past 5 million years, BUT it is the perception of man that DOES change. Truth in combat will never change, though the mind of man is in a constant state of flux due to the intake of everyday experiences.

show me a video from 1953 that has full contact fighting, kicks, punches, throws, etc. Bet you wont find one.

[Notintheface]

I love you <3

[htowndragon]

ur line does go through wong yan lum for two reasons:

1. hop gar line believes that wong lam hoi was wong yan lums student rather than hing-dai, this is the sketchy one, no one will know or agree on this

2. george long was at one point harry ng's disciple, and therefore my si bak. the white crane that u guys do is different from chan hak fu's other disciples, with heavy hop gar influence.


as for the fight, my sifu david chin thinks that they both look scared to hit each other, if chan hak fu had charged in with his punches (which he didn't) instead of trying to not get hit while executing them, wu gong yi woulda been f-ed up.

[lkfmdc]

jih wu bouh vs chat sing bouh

that is the answer to that entire fight, IF you know the system......

[htowndragon]

i don't know what kind of foot work bak hok uses, as described by my sifu, bak hok is the closest of the three tibetan systems that resemble choy lay fut in terms of how they move. he says bak hok uses the "lohan system" of lions roar (one step forward and hit) whereas we in hop gar mix the "white crane" and "lohan" systems in our long range fighting, with the "white crane system" being the core.

but chan hak fu just kinda stood there

i used "triangle stepping", what my sifu calls "double shooting step" (sam chai seaurng jin bou) in combo with chyuun, pao, cup, gwa in a street boxing match against someone 40 lbs heavier than me, they had to stop the match because i was beating on him so hard. the footwork makes all the difference

[David Jamieson]

technique is only good if you can land it optimally.

In a form, they are utterly useless beyond training them. If you don't take it beyond moving in air, then it will take you nowhere.

Make it work! Those guys couldn't because they didn't practice to make it work. they practiced to gain face, students, money and reputation without the hard work beyond the early years of stance training.

ridiculous.

and there's no such thing as "tibetan" martial arts except in name and that is a courtesy of the chinese.

the dalai Lama has said on more than one occasion that tibet, outside of it;s military, which it hasn't really had since the 1700's or so and has had no significant victories for a thousand years before that, doesn't and haven't had any martial arts codified.

White Crane is Chinese Martial arts attributed to Tibetans as a courtesy and an inclusiveness into Chinese society as a whole.

There was a form of argument that would occur wherein Lamaists would strike fearsome warrior poses as they drove their points home, and to me, this would be akin to the marriage of qigong/dhayana to martial art that occured in buddhist, taoist, mohist and other temples in china.

anyway, im sure ross can go on and on about it, but there aren't any bonafide "tibetan" martial arts.

[lkfmdc]

anyway, im sure ross can go on and on about it, but there aren't any bonafide "tibetan" martial arts.

no point in trying to educate a closed mind.... believe what you want

[David Jamieson]

no point in trying to educate a closed mind.... believe what you want

set me straight. :rolleyes:

[monji112000]

amazing clip! I think I am going to look up their respective schools and join them!


Originally Posted by David Jamieson
the dalai Lama has said on more than one occasion that tibet, outside of it;s military, which it hasn't really had since the 1700's or so and has had no significant victories for a thousand years before that, doesn't and haven't had any martial arts codified.

well we know we can trust the dalai lama... wtf do you know anything about Tibet and the history of what the lama's and the feudalism did in Tibet? I would take everything he says and believe the opposite.

I have said it before and I will repeat it... its great let people think that this stuff is the "real" kung fu... its part of natures natural selection.

I am sure I can go post about 100 BS fighting clips by so called Wing Chun fighters. I love Wing Chun, but we tend to have allot of crap..

sparring with gloves = better fighter its that simple. BUT that doesn't mean that bad technqiues don't work.. they do when practiced enough

[lkfmdc]

set me straight. :rolleyes:

1. To assume an ancient culture located in a savage land, which also at one point had an extensive EMPIRE, never developed fighting arts is silly on the face of it

2. history of course teaches us about the hoseman warriors, their skills with knives, swords and spears. These same warriors rode into battle against Chinese tanks during the invasion and got decimated, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist

3. A prominent Shaolin Lo Han instructor who I know has worked out with the monks who are the Dalai Lama's bodyguards. The martial art they practice is considered a national security secret, ie better for people to assume he is not protected

4. In a famous German account of Tibet before the invasion, they refer to an inner monastery martial art which, surprisingly, has movements based upon the famous scenes fo Buddhist imagry

5. I have a student who is married to a Tibetan and lived in Northern India in the exile community. He saw plenty of martial art

I could go on, but of course, because YOU say so, it can't possibly be true :rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

A prominent Shaolin Lo Han instructor who I know has worked out with the monks who are the Dalai Lama's bodyguards. The martial art they practice is considered a national security secret, ie better for people to assume he is not protected

Oh, you mean Stephen K. Hayes. Heh.

[lkfmdc]

Oh, you mean Stephen K. Hayes. Heh.

No, not at all.... like I said a SHAOLIN LO HAN SYSTEM person, which Hayes is clearly not

[Black Jack II]

No, not at all.... like I said a SHAOLIN LO HAN SYSTEM person, which Hayes is clearly not

It was a....joke.;)

[David Jamieson]

1. To assume an ancient culture located in a savage land, which also at one point had an extensive EMPIRE, never developed fighting arts is silly on the face of it

2. history of course teaches us about the hoseman warriors, their skills with knives, swords and spears. These same warriors rode into battle against Chinese tanks during the invasion and got decimated, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist

3. A prominent Shaolin Lo Han instructor who I know has worked out with the monks who are the Dalai Lama's bodyguards. The martial art they practice is considered a national security secret, ie better for people to assume he is not protected

4. In a famous German account of Tibet before the invasion, they refer to an inner monastery martial art which, surprisingly, has movements based upon the famous scenes fo Buddhist imagry

5. I have a student who is married to a Tibetan and lived in Northern India in the exile community. He saw plenty of martial art

I could go on, but of course, because YOU say so, it can't possibly be true :rolleyes:

It doesn't have anything to do with my say so and you know it. But anyway, It's more of a case of you believe what you want and by all means continue to be the only publisher of these "facts" of yours. lol.

now, I'll speak to your points.

1. your #1 amounts to tautology. It says nothing and in and of itself is a silly statement. Please indicate factual materials that back your claim up.

2. What history? Where? A byline from an anecdote in some persona reckoning of what may have occured is not History Dave. Nor is it indicative of codified martial arts systems being propogated in Tibet at any point in time. I can find out all sort fo information on Lamaism, Buddhism, it's ties with teh ancient Bon practices but alas, there is nothing about martial practices in any of this. Unlike the Chinese, japanese and others who have long standing and well recorded martial traditions in their cultures.

3. This is mere hearsay. Also only slightly sensationalist with a slight hint of total BS. :p Not your finest whine.

4. German? You talking about Harrar's book? Please indicate chapter and verse? I can't seem to remember that from the book or Brad Pitts movie of the same name. Unless you're referring to another famous german in tibet.

5. Sure he did, Tae kwon do, karate, hap kido, maybe even some kungfu and kalari, but I'll wager he didn't see move one of any "Tibetan" martial art.

Finally, yes, I'm sure you could go on and on and on. Like I said before. BUt I'm surprised that someone who makes all the claims of knowledge and such taht you do doesn't know that there is no formalized codified traditional tibetan martial arts in a for real sense and there never has been. This has been confirmed by the Dalai Lama himself and avrious other rinpoche Lama's who live all over the world.

I would urge people to pick up a copy of tricycle now and again. :)

[lkfmdc]

Ah, the deny history and hope no one notices argument.......

There are tons of books of Tibetan history, do I need to cite them all? Tibet had a huge empire. Their mounter warriors are well documented. If you deny that all, you're just trolling

My student knew quite well what Karate or Hapkido looked like, and what he saw in the communities in Northern Inda was none of that. Kalari is from SOUTHERN INDIA.... quite removed from the Tibetan community in exile

I happen to like the Dalai Lama, but you realize he doesn't acknowledge the centuries of despotic rule, Tibetan slavery, Tibetan aggression (ie the empire) or anything that takes away from his current effort to win support for the Tibetan independence movement

Again, you can chose to keep your mind closed, but don't expect others to believe things just because you say so :rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

Where did Tibetan soldiers learn thier trade?

Did the Tibetan soldiers employ foreingers in their armies?

"Just before the downfall of Tibetan Dynasty, Tibetan governed Tibet, Qinghai, Silk-road, part of southern Xinkiang, part of central Asia. Tibet bordered with India, Tang, Persia, Mongolia. This was the largest area which was ever controlled by Tibetan. It had a population of 15 millions and an army of 400,000 strong (all estimates)."
http://cc.purdue.edu/~wtv/tibet/history.html#iif03

Did the Tibetans use only foreign war technology to gain strength in war?

[PangQuan]

I might add, this topic merely interests me and I hold no opinion in one way or the other. In all honesty you guys have me going back and forth :p

Tibetan history is not really my forte...

[Black Jack II]

This is some footage of a attack on some Lama's I think back in the 60's. I am not sure though if this is Tibet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w&mode=related&search=

[HOKPAIWES]

Well the monastaires in Tibet had gaurds, no question about it. These gaurds used swords, long staffs and throwing weapons. This can all be proved by PHD holders and can be proved using online sources aswell. The Tibetan Research Center has a website with an article on the (warrior monks) Dlab Dlobs, combat was their niche'.

[PangQuan]

Well the monastaires in Tibet had gaurds, no question about it. These gaurds used swords, long staffs and throwing weapons. This can all be proved by PHD holders and can be proved using online sources aswell. The Tibetan Research Center has a website with an article on the (warrior monks) Dlab Dlobs, combat was their niche'.

So I suppose the question at this point would be:

Was thier martial knowledge base a natural resource, or imported?

[Fu-Pow]

This is some footage of a attack on some Lama's I think back in the 60's. I am not sure though if this is Tibet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w&mode=related&search=

Now that was rich!!!

[golden arhat]

This is some footage of a attack on some Lama's I think back in the 60's. I am not sure though if this is Tibet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w&mode=related&search=

LMFAO

ur the man

LIGHTNING BOLT guess it gives a new meaning to vajarayana

[banditshaw]

This is some footage of a attack on some Lama's I think back in the 60's. I am not sure though if this is Tibet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w&mode=related&search=



OMG That was priceless.

[Notintheface]

Omg he had a kilt on :)

[TenTigers]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPLmYcQaVVE&mode=related&search=

yeahh, well I hate to burst yer bubbles, but towards the end of this clip you will see Martial Arts as performed in Tibet. (sigh) you people are such ignorant fools..)

[HOKPAIWES]

So I suppose the question at this point would be:

Was thier martial knowledge base a natural resource, or imported?


That I don't know. IMO and this is just a guess..I would say both, some techniques being home grown and others from other outside sources as a system was being developed. They had battles to win so I imagine they used whatever would work when $^&% hit the fan and it
really mattered.

http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/tibetanMonks/monks.htm

There is some contact info, maybe we need a volunteer to email them with some questions. Maybe Dr. Goldstein would be willing to make at the least an educated guess based on his prior work.

[Black Jack II]

I loved the Golden Child, great 1980's cheese.

[HOKPAIWES]

I.. I.. I.. I.. want the kiiiiiiife.:)


The youtube ogre clip was funny as hell in a very sad way. The SV edition is available as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpmvFK02jY8

[PangQuan]

That I don't know. IMO and this is just a guess..I would say both, some techniques being home grown and others from other outside sources as a system was being developed. They had battles to win so I imagine they used whatever would work when $^&% hit the fan and it
really mattered.

http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/tibetanMonks/monks.htm

There is some contact info, maybe we need a volunteer to email them with some questions. Maybe Dr. Goldstein would be willing to make at the least an educated guess based on his prior work.

Thats what I would assume as well. It seems to always be the case with war tech.


"We want what you got, and we dont want to give you what we got" seems to be how it works.

[HOKPAIWES]

Thats what I would assume as well. It seems to always be the case with war tech.


"We want what you got, and we dont want to give you what we got" seems to be how it works.


Right, the story behind the blue dragon school I was in was that people, in this case 2 sisters were actualy sent out to collect or even trade sex for what they could and return years later. One account credits searching out a generel known for his hitting power and offering to birth a son in return for training. If this type of thing is true or just story who knows, but it does give an idea on the value on good training.

[PangQuan]

Heck, I'll put out for some quality training! :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Ah, the deny history and hope no one notices argument.......

There are tons of books of Tibetan history, do I need to cite them all? Tibet had a huge empire. Their mounter warriors are well documented. If you deny that all, you're just trolling

My student knew quite well what Karate or Hapkido looked like, and what he saw in the communities in Northern Inda was none of that. Kalari is from SOUTHERN INDIA.... quite removed from the Tibetan community in exile

I happen to like the Dalai Lama, but you realize he doesn't acknowledge the centuries of despotic rule, Tibetan slavery, Tibetan aggression (ie the empire) or anything that takes away from his current effort to win support for the Tibetan independence movement

Again, you can chose to keep your mind closed, but don't expect others to believe things just because you say so :rolleyes:
I'm denying nothing. And no, you don't need to site tons of history books, just the bits that indicate that Tibet has a tradition of martial arts all their own.

Im saying that this is not true. IN fact, the small retinuie of bodyguards that were in the potala on the behalf of the dalai lama before the invasion were equipped with 3 century old muslim armour.

I'm also saying that "Tibetan white crane", "Lions Roar" et al are Chinese martial arts and not Tibetan.

I don't mind you liking the Dalai Lama, but that's got nothing to do with anything, My own opinion of him is that he is not much of anything really. I suppose he's a peacful sort who enjoys getting carried around on pillows and the religion he spreads is cool despite his hypocritical position in it all as some sort of semi deity. Surely he must realize that this is the height of pompous ass hattery in the reality we all find ourselves in, but then, his reality is that he hides from the real world and that is the story of his life.

But that's neither here nor there, no one has made any connection with any side story, tid bit, anecdote or anything that will confirm that there is a longstanding martial tradition of codified martial arts in Tibet.

Nothing that even has the same amount of material as even the smallest and least robust system of martiality anywhere else.

And your friend still didn't see any sort of true tibetan martial arts because there aren't any and I don't think you can provide any source of information that is rock solid indicating otherwise.

[HOKPAIWES]

Ok, I just found out Dr. Goldstein and myself share the same love for the art of bonsai and read some of the same bonsai forums. He actualy just placed some trees high in a N. America vs Europe contest. I will send him an email and see if he can offer any insight on Tibetan martial arts culture.

[lkfmdc]

How many academic level historic works discuss Chinese martial art? Does the literature on the boxer rebellion discuss in detail the TCMA tradition? Or just describe it superficially? Could it not be written off as a movement of religious fanatics the same way you want to acknowledge there were Tibetan warriors but somehow not Tibetan martial arts??

If Tibetan warriors were fighting with swords, knives and spears, conquering empires, where were they acquiring this skill?

The fact that the guards at Potala were wearing old armour doesn't discount they were trained warriors, straw men....

"A visit to the forbidden kingdom" was the name (roughly, it is in German) of the book. It describes a few Germans who entered Tibet approximately 1911....

You seem almost desperate to deny any Tibetan martial tradition, kind of pathological

[HOKPAIWES]

Here is a link to a solid (IMO) write up explaining the Chinese and Tibetan issue.

http://lionsroar.name/indo_tibetan_or_chinese.htm

[jo]

How many academic level historic works discuss Chinese martial art?

Very few.

Writing about martial art(s) and martial artists was the equivalent of vocational suicide to Chinese historians and writers.

Read "Chinese Martial Arts Taining Manuals - A Historical Survey" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo


-jo

[jo]

Here is a link to a solid (IMO) write up explaining the Chinese and Tibetan issue.

http://lionsroar.name/indo_tibetan_or_chinese.htm

Steve Richards???

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

-jo

[HOKPAIWES]

Steve Richards???

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

-jo



I dunno, no more so than anything else your likely to read off the internet I guess.

[jo]

I dunno, no more so than anything else your likely to read off the internet I guess.

So that makes what you read on his site the truth?

What do you know about Steve Richards?

-jo

[htowndragon]

please email me at htowndragon@gmail.com

or shoot me a PM.

thanks!

-jason

[htowndragon]

i can't reply to ur PM, please email me?