Emie 12 Jong and WCK??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 05:43 AM

This poll was to simply see if others 'resonated' with the material or not. Sorry guys im an artist and musician, so im into "feelings" , that things give us.

What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings". All martial art begins and ends with application, and a person doesn't know or uderstand any form except to the extent of their application (fighting) skill. You can't learn the proper "feeling" for hittting a forehand in tennis from a tennis form - that comes from actually hitting the ball. Without that grounding in application, forms are ink blots -- people see and "feel" what they want to see and feel.

When I found the branch of White Crane, and the exact form, I feel is the parent of Opera Troupe WCK, It struck me on numerous differant levels.

Of course it did. ;)

Opera Troupe WCK= any branch stemming from Wong Wah Boe, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, Yik Kam or Gu Lo chung, to clairify.

Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? Can you prove that WCK was even on the Red Boats? Or, do you like to use stories and cherry-picked ink blots to support what you want to be WCK history?

Im still learning about the Emie system, but currently feel that the system that gave WCK its Snake boxing, is an internal " Boxing" system, not a platform for spiritual enlightenment, thats probably extinct currently. There may even be merrit and truth in the Snake boxing being from Emie, but that is a differant discusion all together. The Emie mountain range is home to a wide range of eclictic styles, as well as monastaries.

I think the White Crane used Harder Wei Jing Soft/Hard method and the Snake boxing used a Softer Nei JIng method. I think WCK ends up being a Wei Jing art, that is defined as Soft. As we minimize muscle use, maximise Tendon use and elastisty, and use localized Chi.

Wei Jing arts, use localized Chi. Hard Wei Jing arts use all Lik or muscle. Soft Wei JIng styles use only the most minimal muscles and mostly tendons to power the motions. Wei Jing Soft/Hard are in the middle.

Nei Jing arts sink the Chi to the Dan tien and open up the micro/macro orbits.

Wei Jing and Nei Jing each use a differant bowing method of the body as well.

B

It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik. But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art. It's a nice theory, though.

Ernie

07-06-2007, 06:39 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JNmD3AZt6U

Emie lives on ! and they got feeeeeeling !

:rolleyes:

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 07:24 AM

Until one knows what is Emei 12 Zhuang, how could one vote?

How could one vote for what is the gender of a baby male or female?

IMHO, no one needs to vote for the gender, just go for an ultrasonic. Yes or No it is clear.

IMHO

BTW, to be more specific, post the clip or the Small letter Zhuang and etc... see 12 zhuang comes with lots of different ways and indeed the reason of it was named 12 zhuang is 12 ways. and this is just a way of the 12th.

Not to mention, why don one post the clip from GM Fu himself, and how much depth one really could know about the art ?

as a general question, in the same way , could one learn SLT/SNT via just watching Youtube clip on demonstration clip?

peace

AmanuJRY

07-06-2007, 07:39 AM

There's no option for 'I really don't care/It doesn't affect my training'.:(

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 07:42 AM

is wai Jing and Nei Jing define that way in the past china?

IMHO, nope,

the confusion comes in when the communication on Nei and Wai Jing and lik is not clearly define for general public.

as for the feeling, IMHO, simply feel what is the effortless natual way to do bil jee in SLT/SNT for you comparing the top clip and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&mode=related&search=

it will be great if you could post how GM Fu doing the first part of the Small letter Zhuang,

so we could compare between the Small letter of Emei 12 Zhuang (yes, there is a set call the Small similar to the Small in SLT/SNT )and the Iron wire above.

BTW, my ancestor Yik Kam is an actor playing female role so what is the feeling of him doing the hung gar way and playing a female role as proffesion?

click on

dance to see and feel how a dramatized female role act ... and see how is it different then the hung gar way.

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808590078/trailer

also

look at the following clip and see which is more likely Iron Wire or Emei?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

Peace

Ernie

07-06-2007, 07:46 AM

There's no option for 'I really don't care/It doesn't affect my training'.:(

Ahhh the I don't give a rats a$$ option ,,,must be in the fine print :eek:

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 01:14 PM

Drawing a pretty long bow IMO. It looks closer to breakdancing than WCK to me.

perhaps, someone who knows breakdance could use his breakdance skill to do SLT/SNT and let the body's language naturally surface instead of sifu said hold this here and that there....etc.

Try it.

Perhaps SLT is perform with very lite breakdance like method thus every joing and small details could be train and handle....

Brian, you are a musician, get some of your breakdance friends to test drive the SLT and SNT without telling them what needs to do what needs to clamp what need to fix but let thier body find its nature track.

if SLT is about nature then when the nature surface, what it is is infront our eyes. are we ready to see that and face that ?

similar to the fourseasons- winter-1,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c6CX8UMv4s&mode=related&search=

at the begining, the discrete music is the white crane, then the continous music come in -- the snake. then they both fuse in all kind of different ways. then, the snake even immitate or simulate the crane as one could use the continous music to imitate the discrete then at almost the end of it, thier fusion even go out of range and wild but it was always balance and solid without anything fix.

How many recognize the music of SLT?

left you something to chew on before I go seclusion...

Peace

byond1

07-06-2007, 03:03 PM

Hi everyone,

Dont put more into the post, than what is there. Some are really reaching. I just wanted to see how others would react to the material, nothing more nothing less. I personaly dont know if it is or isnt related at this point.

"What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings"."-T

+++Who was looking at a form?? Is that what you thought we were watching :) I look at the mechanics myself.The action of whats occuring as well as the powering of the action is whats important in my opinion.

Thats a method of mobilizing the joints , and opening up the Lao Gong points, in my understanding.

"All martial art begins and ends with application," - T

+++Agreed. But application needs an engine for it to be applied, as well as structure/vehicle.
That material isnt really a martial art. Its actually a very advanced system for spiritual resurection, thats based on Taoist and Buddist methods, as was common in the Tang dynasty.
There is material that could be used for application , later on in the 12 Jong system - but thats neither here nor there, as you brought up application.

"Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? " - T

+++Who cares?? That wasnt the point, I was clairfiying my statement and terminology, i would think you would be sensitive to needing a common language for communication to exist. I was avoiding ~other~ branchs of WCK , NOT related to the opera troupe, by there own traditions and omissions, being insulted, as Im not talking blanket across the board.

"It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik."- T

+++We need a common language. Define channeling please. My understanding Hendrik would have to be dead for me to channel him, and since he is very well alive, I wouldnt know what you mean.

"But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art."- T

+++Its so refreshing to see you still have an opinion like everyone else. Thanks for sharing:)

But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art.

byond1

07-06-2007, 03:16 PM

Hendrik -

Funny you bring up break dancing. A student of mine from years ago, was a break dancer. This was when i was in the H.K WCK system. He would do a "snake" style movement, that would...wave through out his whole body. Later when I learned started learning YKS and the Sai Ying Sau , I always remembered how he did that coiling with his body.

I dont have any other clips of Fu Sigung . There was that one from a year or so ago on google, but i dougt its still up.

Mr.Punch - Understood. I do think its relavant to know where one was, to better understand, why you are, where you are, and possibly where one needs to go.

It is unknown to be at present time if the Emie 12 jong, will fit the criterion for the above.

When you say:
""Sometimes looking at the origin of something doesn't help with its present day application, especially if that thing has evolved somewhat.""

Thats a very good point. Thats why this type of research is sooo difficult, and I do think WCK has evolved passed where it was even back in the early 1900s.

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 04:12 PM

""Sometimes looking at the origin of something doesn't help with its present day application, especially if that thing has evolved somewhat."" ----

For the Chinese ancient art, sure application changes and evolve. however, the body or the nature doesnt changes. and knowing the direction to the origin will know how much body mechanics it is likely to be there and how much has evolve including lost.

if the body mechanics has lost to a certain level, then the art is gone for the engine no longer is there or has become inadequate to drive.....

To bring back an art needs to bring back the 'body" or enginee. as for the ancient chinese Tee or body is a must to support the Yong or application.

if using breakdance way to practice SLT will yield better result for SLT training, then we know the other way or teaching is a limited and narrow way which is not accord to the nature of human body as the breakdance way.. That simple however do we willing to face the reality and staring into the eyes of the nature and let the nature speak?

Yes, emei 12 zhuang' snake physical moving is close to 'breakdance" in a general way and it is when all the Joins of the body "break" into small spiral and some up like a waving snake that makes SLT unique compare with the classical white crane, inch jing join force of 1680. via this way, that make WCK's stunt Jing possible to be implemented.

Dance and Music experience are closer and direct to nature then sifu says.

Beside WCK is the art of opera.

so turn to Dance and Music, let go let God, let the rythm of the nature takes over,
and one shall sense and feel the original face of Madam Wing Chun.

and that face could be seen only behind the eyes in the real of sensing....... there is where Chi Sau starts...

if you go this path,
soon very soon you will sing the windflowers song, take a warning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-k7bAAak8Q

enter at your own free will to the realm of Emei 12 zhuang.... the art of Samathabadra Boddhisatva of Emei of goldern top

http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/0108/sources/fourmtn2.htm

just some thoughts

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 04:43 PM

"What I find amusing is that people look to "forms" for "feelings"."-T

+++Who was looking at a form?? Is that what you thought we were watching :) I look at the mechanics myself.The action of whats occuring as well as the powering of the action is whats important in my opinion.

What we were watching was essentially nonsense. If you want to see real body mechanics, you need to see them in action -- for real, in fighting.

Thats a method of mobilizing the joints , and opening up the Lao Gong points, in my understanding.

"Mobilizing joints", "opening points"? Oh, Lord!

"All martial art begins and ends with application," - T

+++Agreed. But application needs an engine for it to be applied, as well as structure/vehicle.

No, we don't agree and you don't even understand what I am saying about application. If you did, you wouldn't be showing this at all. Instead you'd be showing genuine application (the beginning and end). But, of course, this guys and all those theory guys, can't apply their martial art in fighting against decent fighters because they are lost in theory, lost in nonsense.

There is no "engine". When you throw a ball, and even when you try to teach someone to throw a ball, you don't talk about "the engine". It doesn't help to look at things that way -- because that is not the reality of what is going on.

That material isnt really a martial art. Its actually a very advanced system for spiritual resurection, thats based on Taoist and Buddist methods, as was common in the Tang dynasty.

In other words, nonsense.

There is material that could be used for application , later on in the 12 Jong system - but thats neither here nor there, as you brought up application.

Sure it "could". In fantasyland.

"Can you prove with independently verifiable evidence that any of these people really existed? " - T

+++Who cares?? That wasnt the point, I was clairfiying my statement and terminology, i would think you would be sensitive to needing a common language for communication to exist. I was avoiding ~other~ branchs of WCK , NOT related to the opera troupe, by there own traditions and omissions, being insulted, as Im not talking blanket across the board.

Then why bring this nonsense up?

"It's nice that you are channeling Hendrik."- T

+++We need a common language. Define channeling please. My understanding Hendrik would have to be dead for me to channel him, and since he is very well alive, I wouldnt know what you mean.

We don't need a common language for nonsense that doesn't exist.

"But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art."- T

+++Its so refreshing to see you still have an opinion like everyone else. Thanks for sharing:)

Just staing a fact.

But from your description above, you don't have much of a grasp of what hard/soft is about, at least in terms of martial art.

Oh, I know what it is -- and I'll be glad to show you or Hendrik anytime you want to see. You guys are lost in your "internal" Ermei, orbiting DNA, fantasy world. People who talk like this haven't a clue about martial art. If they did, they wouldn't talk like that.

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 04:57 PM

You guys are lost in your "internal" Ermei, orbiting DNA, fantasy world. People who talk like this haven't a clue about martial art. .

I love this. hahaha

who needs to have a clue of martial art according to Terence?

I rather fantasy ; free from karma of fighting; free from burning in the fire of trying to prove this or that to others; to wasting my live.

free and sing and listern to music and dance. isnt that a great fun energetic life ?

byond1

07-06-2007, 05:41 PM

Well again, I see lots of your opinion T, not a single fact. So again I guess your not so special, as we all have an opinion.

My opinion is on nonsence Mixed martial art americans who degrade everything they touch into rediculous sports, do everything half baked, and mistake that for reality. Cheers!~ People like you, I doubt have actually used their Sports training, in real life situations, hence your limited narrow opinion, which is just as bad and destructive as the dead letter zombie followers of tradition. Both degrade the art.Hence, I dont care what you are selling, as its nonsence.

Decent fighters???? BWahahahahah. Right. Like all the MMA guys that like to take an opponent to the ground, lay on them and watch the clock tick??

Heres a new song for you. Try "modern traditionalist". Keeping the original concepts, principles, structures, and Engine, while preasure testing it and applying it against modern conditions - and allowing this testing to evolve the applications, which of cource are Principle driven, or you loose the criterion for what is or isnt WCK. Following this formula, you actualy end up with something that looks like WCK, not like Boxing, as I see many MMA WCKers ending up with.

Try living and growing up in a ghetto, than you can talk to me about Real life use.

My belief on application has nothing to do with why i posted that clip. Many have never seen it, but have heard about it for a long time. I was sharing, and getting others feedback. Sorry you were suckered by my munsau.:)

You read into me being one of those "Theory guys" and lumped me in, with others, when you dont know me, nor anything about me. I suppose you could be channeling my thoughts and intent though.

Body mechanics do not have to be used in fighting for one to see them. Hence "Shadow Boxing". WHich is a method to train.....body mechanics.

And heres a fact for you, there is an engine (if your opinion is fact, than so is mine), for all bio mechanic motions . In fact, its one of the roots of motion.

B

chusauli

07-06-2007, 05:47 PM

Having seen the Emei 12 Zhuang system and the Yik Kam SLT WCK, I would say that whole movements of the set SLT derive from the Xiao Zi Zhuang (Siu Ji Jong) and there is a great similarity.

Of the clip shown of Emei 12 Zhuang, it is not representative of the relationship to the SLT set. If you haven't seen it, it is hard to imagine.

No opinion, just fact.

All of this arguing is just a waste of time.

Ultimatewingchun

07-06-2007, 06:00 PM

Brian,

I personally don't see any SLT in the clip you posted, and I voted as much. But some of the points you've tried to raise on this thread about internal boxing systems, feeling, opening joints, and so on are valid.

So I will agree with Robert about this much: arguing with Terence is a complete waste of your valuable time.

He loves to argue just for the sake of arguing; has no understanding about anything not quantifiable by myopic and outdated western scientific standards of materiality, ie. - a B.F. Skinner-like worldview wherein conditioned responses based upon results first - and causes later are the END-ALL-AND-BE-ALL (ie.- if it's not seen under my slanted microscope it doesn't exist); and in addition, Terence uses one standard of values and judgments for himself and those he's close to (or channels, ie.- see Matt Thornton's articles) - while he (Terence) has another more stringent standard for everybody else.

And he's never wrong. (That is, until he does a 180 and changes his mind completely, ie.- see his posts from years ago when he argued against things like sparring)...

But somehow he's just never wrong about anything.

Even though he's basically clueless about so many things. :eek:

Try the IGNORE list.

And then you can argue with some other more reasonable people. :p ;)

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 07:02 PM

Well again, I see lots of your opinion T, not a single fact. So again I guess your not so special, as we all have an opinion.

Facts? You want facts? I gave you facts. That stuff is nonsense. It's fantasy stuff. You want proof? Show me anyone --anyone -- who can make it that stuff work against someone hell bent on kncking the stuffing out of them who has decent attributes. These guys apparently love to make vids of themselves -- so where are the vids of them actually using these marvelous "machanics"? They can't make it work. Because it is fantasy stuff.

You look at these things as evidence, and try to use it to figure out how WCK developed. But you'll never find those answers looking at fantasy.

My opinion is on nonsence Mixed martial art americans who degrade everything they touch into rediculous sports, do everything half baked, and mistake that for reality. Cheers!~ People like you, I doubt have actually used their Sports training, in real life situations, hence your limited narrow opinion, which is just as bad and destructive as the dead letter zombie followers of tradition. Both degrade the art.Hence, I dont care what you are selling, as its nonsence.

It's really easy to show that a martial art, whether MMA or Ermei 12 Jong or whatever, is genuine or fantasy. You may not like what you see MMAists do, but at least they are *doing* it. Why don't we ever see people with your marvelous mechanics actually using them? For the simple reason that they don't work -- they are fantasy.

Decent fighters???? BWahahahahah. Right. Like all the MMA guys that like to take an opponent to the ground, lay on them and watch the clock tick??

You can always show me your TMA guys who can do better. ;)

Heres a new song for you. Try "modern traditionalist". Keeping the original concepts, principles, structures, and Engine, while preasure testing it and applying it against modern conditions - and allowing this testing to evolve the applications, which of cource are Principle driven, or you loose the criterion for what is or isnt WCK. Following this formula, you actualy end up with something that looks like WCK, not like Boxing, as I see many MMA WCKers ending up with.

Great, let's see it. Or is this just more fantasy?

Try living and growing up in a ghetto, than you can talk to me about Real life use.

ROFLOL! You are too much. Next, you'll be telling me about how you worked a door! LOL!

My belief on application has nothing to do with why i posted that clip. Many have never seen it, but have heard about it for a long time. I was sharing, and getting others feedback. Sorry you were suckered by my munsau.:)

I'm not the one being suckered.

You read into me being one of those "Theory guys" and lumped me in, with others, when you dont know me, nor anything about me. I suppose you could be channeling my thoughts and intent though.

You were the one talking about "engines", internal arts, opening points, using chi to open the dan tien, etc., right? And you wonder why I lumped you in with the theory boys? LOL!

All that stuff does is constipate you. You may not like "sport" guys, but people in sports -- because they actually do them, actually compete -- need their stuff to really work. Not in theory, not in pretend fighting, but actually work under realistic conditions. There is a very good reason sport people don't talk like this, don't look at the world like this, etc. Not even good chinese athletes use this sort of nonsense to guide them. Because it is not helpful, it is not productive. Just the opposite. It inhibits growth and development. And if you look around, you won't find anyone who follows that line of "thinking" who has developed decent skills.

Body mechanics do not have to be used in fighting for one to see them. Hence "Shadow Boxing". WHich is a method to train.....body mechanics.

Once again -- wrong. Shadow boxing is not application. Fighting/sparring is application. No fighting/sparring, no application. Shadow boxing involves practicing body mechanics developed in application - fighting/sparring.

And heres a fact for you, there is an engine (if your opinion is fact, than so is mine), for all bio mechanic motions . In fact, its one of the roots of motion.

You still don't get it because you are lost in theory. The body is the only "engine". The body drives us. There are different ways of using our body to optimally accomplish certain tasks. Period. You don't need "performance art" to figure those out. If you are given the task, you will naturally find the optimal way to do it. But, this requires, you actually do the task.

byond1

07-06-2007, 07:20 PM

Hi Robert and Vic,

Great advice!!~ I think I will follow it!

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison. That was just to give others a taste of something rare, they have heard about for a long time but not experianced.

And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined, as some of the older Snake and Crane methods, have gradualy been evolved out of the system, so for example I understand why many dont see the immediate connections to White crane, using for example H.K WCK.

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK.
But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong.
As my grandmothers kuen kuit states "Start with what you know"

B

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 07:21 PM

look at the following clip and see which is more likely Iron Wire or Emei?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

What exactly are we supoposed to see watching a 96 year old man performing a linked set? That the quality of his movement in a form was more "like" the movement in the Ermei form (another old guy) than the Hung Ga form? So what?

Here is what you don't seem to understand, Hendrik -- a person won't be able to move like they do in those forms in fighting. Those forms aren't really training anything functional in terms of mechanics. A better question would be to ask: what do all three forms have in common? Answer: they don't reflect the reality of how a person will *need* to move in a fight to be successful (at least against anyone who is not a scrub).

How will a person need to move? Look at any genuine fight - bar, street, ring, mat, gym, it doesn't matter. The answer is right before your eyes. But to see, you've got to take the blinders of tradition off.

This is why I have repeatedly said -- show me anyone who can move like that and fight successfully. You can't do it. Yet you continue to believe. Belief in spite of evidence is the domain of religion.

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 07:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&mode=related&search=

it will be great if you could post how GM Fu doing the first part of the Small letter Zhuang,

so we could compare between the Small letter of Emei 12 Zhuang (yes, there is a set call the Small similar to the Small in SLT/SNT )and the Iron wire above.

BTW, my ancestor Yik Kam is an actor playing female role so what is the feeling of him doing the hung gar way and playing a female role as proffesion?

Just for laughs, I had a look at the Iron Wire form above (that's on Youtube), and then I did a search for Hung Ga fighting and only found these two clips that show hung ga people "really" (LOL!) sparring (the rest werre putting on demos of pretend fighting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3zssGEl88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BY7VLcO5Cs

So where is the "iron wire" mechanics?

Now before you say that they were just kickboxing, and they were poor representatives of hung ga, show me some good representatives -- some people who can really fight/spar with those mechanics.

t_niehoff

07-06-2007, 07:53 PM

And, Hendrik, I know you beleive yi quan is "internal" and has similarlity to WCK -- here's an interesting clip. The "best" part is in the middle when they spar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ZBR51Tewg&NR=1

You can see the "internal" body mechanics coming out. ;)

Hendrik

07-06-2007, 09:25 PM

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison.
And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined,-------

there are 12 sets or 12 ways. Siu Tze Zhong (the small way -- with the concept of ten thousand threat source from small/minute...) is one of the set within the 12.

Get the clip of that set and post the first half of it. and also get the clip of classical wcwc bafen from china. see what will it becomes when they fuse. not to mention the kuen kuit I got which Robert also has seen did has the terminology and stanza from both of these above.

it is very not likely that how come the terminology such as Zhao Yang which was an older classical wcwc term and the stanza of emei is collect naively within one kuen kuit of SLT due to any other reasons if the person who create this kuit doesnt know both.

IMHO

There are three ways of practicing SLT, in my understanding.

1, follow sifu said, follow the instruction the principle.. clamp this fix that..ect but just practice and practice. repeat and repeat. the SLT.

2, understand the different between lik, Jing, Nei Jing and Wai Jing, understand the breathing and applied those while practicing the SLT.

3, activate the inner flow, sink qi to dan dien, activate the inner reasonance, and using the inner reasonance as the core to induce one's cultivation to closer and closer to the nature.

The 1, and 2 doesnt need or limited need in the understanding or handling of Dan Dien, Zhen Qi . mai....etc. as for the #3, the first 5 stanza of the SLT kuen kuit by Miu Shun and passed down by Yik Kam presenting the ticket to enter this realm.

This is even before the "break dance" without this ticket, even one "break dance" it is not a "break dance " drive by the 8 special medirians.

I suggest a true comparison of the art could be done only after one reaches the begining threshold of #3. otherwise, it is to shallow for any conclusion. IMHO

how long one will be able to grasp the entry of the #3 practice? thus I have heard. one week with the technology. however it is not worthed if it is not about Humanity.

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK. ------

In some posts of the 12 zhuang, one could find the trace of WCK application. IMHO.. the stick...etc.

But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based. -------

Emei 12 zhuang is as Boxing as Shao Lin if not more lethal.

however, Emei purposely cover up this face of the art.

IMHO, This is because it is an energy manipulative technology. and enery technology is energy manipulative. it is better to present the art as a healing cultivation then destructive weapon.

as it said, the greater the power the greater the responsibility. He who takes pleasure of hurting others will end up being hurt. There is nothing great to boast about how one could hurt others. That is also the reason I believe why Miu Shu and Yim Yee keep it real low key.

in addition, all those real Shao Lin Monk such as Da Mo, or Emei Monk such as the White Cloud who created the Emei 12 zhuang, are beings of compassionate and loving kindness. Sifu Robert here knows very very well the teaching of Zen patriach Ven Hsuan Hua who is the dharma descendent of the Zen patriach Hsu Yun, he too knows there is no way high attainment Monks will teach one to hurt others. I myself is a student of Ven Hsuan Hua who teaches me to help even an ant to preserve its lives, as in my sifu's own word, " I am no different then an ant".

With great power comes great responsibility that is also IMHO why even within the Cho family the certain part of the Yik Kam teaching is kept very private even among the family.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong. ------

once you get into Emie 12 jong, and once you saw the SLT Kuen Kuit transmitted by Yik Kam, you will not be able to turn back even if the whole world disagree with you. That I give you a pre-warning. however, I must said, if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path. for the more power you gain the more harm it will cause you.... IMHO

or perhaps, you need to ask, is revealing the truth bring a better life for others or bring the technology to the world will create more destruction. that IMHO is also the responsibility of the researcher. It is certainly feeling good to crack the "da vinci" code however how many of us have thought about the consequence and the impact? I too was young one time and naive about human nature.

It is my believe that
It is better to practice loving kindness and knowing nothing or bad kung fu then deal with energy but thinking hurting others is something great to show off.

for before one could handle oneself, the snake in the energy will turn into a poison snake which bite oneself.

Finally, Terence has a good point refering what I am presenting as fantasy.
Sure, dont we all are fantasying?

Someday, when we close our eyes and never open it anymore. isnt it all what we did this life become a big fantasy dream? That including Terence Fighting Fighting fantasy, my wck is the oldest fantasy, I am the gate holder fantasy, I know it all fantasy.... I am the best fighter fantasy, I am the tough guy fantasy....ect fantasy.

For me,
I rather to folllow the Buddhist ancestors of the past. manifest a humanistic fantasy. at least that way I know I have a sweat dream which I could release with ease just before I close my eyes and never open it again.

everyone choose thier own karma or fantasy. and I decide to follow the humanistic fantasy.

Just some thoughts.

anerlich

07-06-2007, 09:45 PM

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, "the only possible defence against an unintelligible statement is ridicule".

if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path.

Who else would it be intended for? Martians? The Neutrinos from Dimension X?

perhaps, someone who knows breakdance could use his breakdance skill to do SLT/SNT and let the body's language naturally surface instead of sifu said hold this here and that there....etc.

Some Russian MA drills closely resemble breakdancing. And the clip looks more like both them and breakdancing than it does WC. There may be some similarities as some level, but at some level WC is like karate, iron wire, skateboarding and walking too.

I was foolish not to see the "don't give a rat's a$$" option myself. Forgive me.

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 06:43 AM

And the fact is that the entire set must be seen and used as the comparison.
And the WCK used as a referance for comparisons must also be defined,-------

You don't seem to grasp that comparing "forms" is not comparing the martial arts. The forms are merely representations of things, not the things themselves. You can't see WCK in a form. WCK is not in the SNT/SLT. WCK exists only in application. So you can only see it in application.

there are 12 sets or 12 ways. Siu Tze Zhong (the small way -- with the concept of ten thousand threat source from small/minute...) is one of the set within the 12.

Get the clip of that set and post the first half of it. and also get the clip of classical wcwc bafen from china. see what will it becomes when they fuse. not to mention the kuen kuit I got which Robert also has seen did has the terminology and stanza from both of these above.

it is very not likely that how come the terminology such as Zhao Yang which was an older classical wcwc term and the stanza of emei is collect naively within one kuen kuit of SLT due to any other reasons if the person who create this kuit doesnt know both.

There is lots of overlap between theory, kuit, terminology is many TCMA methods. BFD. That proves nothing. Most of these things are generic, and spread all around. Kuen yao sum faat (fist comes from the heart) is a WCK kuit and is in xing yi -- and in many arts. You see connections you want to see.

IMHO

There are three ways of practicing SLT, in my understanding.

Yes, and *your* understanding is limited by your level of development -- how well you can really do (use ) WCK in fighting. And this is the problem: people who can't do it want to tell us how we should do it, what it really means, etc. If you believe your understanding is correct, then show that you can really make it work the way you say it works. I'll listen to anyone - anyone - who can do what they say (really do it in fighting), even if I disagree with them. I can't argue with results.

1, follow sifu said, follow the instruction the principle.. clamp this fix that..ect but just practice and practice. repeat and repeat. the SLT.

2, understand the different between lik, Jing, Nei Jing and Wai Jing, understand the breathing and applied those while practicing the SLT.

3, activate the inner flow, sink qi to dan dien, activate the inner reasonance, and using the inner reasonance as the core to induce one's cultivation to closer and closer to the nature.

The 1, and 2 doesnt need or limited need in the understanding or handling of Dan Dien, Zhen Qi . mai....etc. as for the #3, the first 5 stanza of the SLT kuen kuit by Miu Shun and passed down by Yik Kam presenting the ticket to enter this realm.

This is even before the "break dance" without this ticket, even one "break dance" it is not a "break dance " drive by the 8 special medirians.

Or, you could just drop some LSD and take a short cut to fantasyland. ;)

I suggest a true comparison of the art could be done only after one reaches the begining threshold of #3. otherwise, it is to shallow for any conclusion. IMHO

The only "true comparison" of the art takes place in fighting. That's the only place you see the results of your training. As I told you, I'll be in LA next June -- why don'tyou come show me how this marvelous training works?

There are many...striking similarities, and im not simply refering to physical posing or external stuctures in the Emi 12 Jong to WCK. ------

In some posts of the 12 zhuang, one could find the trace of WCK application. IMHO.. the stick...etc.

But I always invisioned the snake art, that was used in WCK creation, to be more...."boxing" based. -------

Emei 12 zhuang is as Boxing as Shao Lin if not more lethal.

however, Emei purposely cover up this face of the art.

IMHO, This is because it is an energy manipulative technology. and enery technology is energy manipulative. it is better to present the art as a healing cultivation then destructive weapon.

as it said, the greater the power the greater the responsibility. He who takes pleasure of hurting others will end up being hurt. There is nothing great to boast about how one could hurt others. That is also the reason I believe why Miu Shu and Yim Yee keep it real low key.

in addition, all those real Shao Lin Monk such as Da Mo, or Emei Monk such as the White Cloud who created the Emei 12 zhuang, are beings of compassionate and loving kindness. Sifu Robert here knows very very well the teaching of Zen patriach Ven Hsuan Hua who is the dharma descendent of the Zen patriach Hsu Yun, he too knows there is no way high attainment Monks will teach one to hurt others. I myself is a student of Ven Hsuan Hua who teaches me to help even an ant to preserve its lives, as in my sifu's own word, " I am no different then an ant".

With great power comes great responsibility that is also IMHO why even within the Cho family the certain part of the Yik Kam teaching is kept very private even among the family.

At this point, i feel its worth investigating and im simply keeping an open mind. But im starting at first defining the Crane material and connection, than taking the material thats left and comparing that with the Emie 12 jong. ------

once you get into Emie 12 jong, and once you saw the SLT Kuen Kuit transmitted by Yik Kam, you will not be able to turn back even if the whole world disagree with you. That I give you a pre-warning. however, I must said, if your (anyone not only Brian ) WCK is not intended for humanity then dont walk this path. for the more power you gain the more harm it will cause you.... IMHO

or perhaps, you need to ask, is revealing the truth bring a better life for others or bring the technology to the world will create more destruction. that IMHO is also the responsibility of the researcher. It is certainly feeling good to crack the "da vinci" code however how many of us have thought about the consequence and the impact? I too was young one time and naive about human nature.

It is my believe that
It is better to practice loving kindness and knowing nothing or bad kung fu then deal with energy but thinking hurting others is something great to show off.

for before one could handle oneself, the snake in the energy will turn into a poison snake which bite oneself.

This is the common claim of TCMAs -- the "secret book" view of martial art: I have the secret book with the secret info, the real stuff that others lack, the stuf that will make you lethal, andmake your WCK work . . . blah, blah, blah. And they always wrap it up to go in a tortilla of pseudo-spirituality.

Finally, Terence has a good point refering what I am presenting as fantasy.
Sure, dont we all are fantasying?

Someday, when we close our eyes and never open it anymore. isnt it all what we did this life become a big fantasy dream? That including Terence Fighting Fighting fantasy, my wck is the oldest fantasy, I am the gate holder fantasy, I know it all fantasy.... I am the best fighter fantasy, I am the tough guy fantasy....ect fantasy.

No, Hendrik, some of us are not concerned with fantasy and are not practicing a fantasy. I have no delusions as to what I am doing, or what I can do, or what my level is. I know. I know by my results. I don't believe that I am the best fighter or a tough guy. But I am someone who practices WCK as a martial art. You don't.

For me,
I rather to folllow the Buddhist ancestors of the past. manifest a humanistic fantasy. at least that way I know I have a sweat dream which I could release with ease just before I close my eyes and never open it again.

everyone choose thier own karma or fantasy. and I decide to follow the humanistic fantasy.

Just some thoughts.

If you want to follow buddhism, that's fine. But you don't need martial art to do that. And, since you brought up the subject of "humanistic" -- that too is a matter of do you walk the talk? It's easy to talk about being humanistic, about being spiritual, etc. But my experience is most people who talk about these things don't *do* squat. They don't put they talk into practice. If you want to be humanistic and want to grow spiritually, it takes work, hard, painful work. Instead of doing your SLT to develop your "humanity" or "spiritual self" try volunteering at an AIDS hospice or homeless shelter. That is the difference between the talkers and the doers.

YungChun

07-07-2007, 07:04 AM

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 07:41 AM

Terence...

You can certainly compare arts at the concept level... The theory level, the training model level, the form level, the application level, the duel fight level.. Or any other way one wishes.. A careful and thorough study of any art by any scientist would involve any and all facets of the *art* which DOES include all of the above..

The *existance* of forms in an art is sufficient to merit a study and comparison of them as a "part" of the art. If one is to take forms as the 'text books' of an art then one could argue that the art comes from these text books...

It's like genotype vs. the phenotype... One is not more 'real' than the other, they are both part of the whole, life process...

The *actual* concepts, theory, training, etc. are only visable by, though, and in application. While I agree (to some extent) that forms are "texts", a person can't understand the text -- what the text "means" - except through application. You see, this is precisely the problem that Hendrik, Brian, etc. don't understand -- they may beleive they know what the concepts are, the theory is, what the training does, etc. but absent being able to really do it, that is all just theory, belief (one they bring with them into their inquiry). So they are discussing things they really don't understand (since if you can't do it, you don't really know it or understand it), comparing them to things they don't understand, and drawing conclusions from that. All they are doing is looking at things from a purely theoretical perspective and mainly a false perspective, then using that to support what they already want to be the case.

YungChun

07-07-2007, 07:55 AM

The *actual* concepts, theory, training, etc. are only visable by, though, and in application. While I agree (to some extent) that forms are "texts", a person can't understand the text -- what the text "means" - except through application. You see, this is precisely the problem that Hendrik, Brian, etc. don't understand -- they may beleive they know what the concepts are, the theory is, what the training does, etc. but absent being able to really do it, that is all just theory, belief (one they bring with them into their inquiry). So they are discussing things they really don't understand (since if you can't do it, you don't really know it or understand it), comparing them to things they don't understand, and drawing conclusions from that. All they are doing is looking at things from a purely theoretical perspective and mainly a false perspective, then using that to support what they already want to be the case.

But the art is defined by it's concepts.. If I ask the teacher to teach me WCK what will he do, KO me? No, it will be about the art in theory, then how to manifest that theory and then how to apply it..

The 'art' is a thing...more an idea or idea set..

This idea set is then applied... Does the art <idea set> only exist when the idea set it is applied? Not logical IMO, since the idea set gives rise to the action...

It is the art which gives rise to the art in application, where art is an idea set...

Idea sets are not objective they are quantifiable and thus measurable, free of error in their expression, since they are codified...

Expression of the idea set by a human must by definition be subject to human error and human limitations, in both expression and interpretation, and therefore by definition must be inconsistent and subjective. This unlike the idea set which can always be clear, consistent, measurable and objective..

And no one need to play the violin or the cello to compare them…nor could a complete comparison of the two be limited to play …

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 08:11 AM

But you don't need martial art to do that. ------

an art is an art it is not up to others to judge who need what art.

And, since you brought up the subject of "humanistic" -- that too is a matter of do you walk the talk? -------

sure. Those who walk walk those who talks only talks. action shows it all.

It's easy to talk about being humanistic, about being spiritual, etc. ----

at least people talk about it and at least when they talk about it they spend thier time talk about it instead of go robbing or hurting others.

some even they do minimun that is better then not talk about it at all.

But my experience is most people who talk about these things don't *do* squat. They don't put they talk into practice. -------

You expereince could be right. and examine who you are grouping with? different group of people do different stuffs. but that is not every group of people.

If you want to be humanistic and want to grow spiritually, it takes work, hard, painful work. -----

Nope, it doesnt to take work or hard painfull work. it has to take the easiest work to begin with. Love oneself. if one cant love oneself and always in the judgmental and see everything is not right mode. then, no work in this world lead to humanistic and spiritual.

So, ask yourself do you know how to love yourself? that simple. it begin there.

Instead of doing your SLT to develop your "humanity" or "spiritual self" try volunteering at an AIDS hospice or homeless shelter. That is the difference between the talkers and the doers.------

again, SLT is an art. SLT is a tool. humanistic or spiritual is about oneself. The more one knows different arts and the more one knows the depth and vast and lively of the art the more one could use thier art to aid humanistic and the effortless one could flow through life with ease.

What good is to volunteering this or that if one doesnt know the above?
one can do all the volunteering work if one still dont know how to love oneself, one will never know how to love others.

and being seeing everything is wrong is a sign of not loving oneself. Do you have a gasp of that? until then how can one even know what is humanistic?

as it is said, love God, love yourself, and love your neigbour. there is a truth there about living.

Keep anti-qing with all the sefl-rigtheous and self-righteous vengence make one not loving oneself. how is those type of life could work? those are simply a miseratble live one live in. that is reality.

and perhaps, one needs to ask oneself why do one train in SLT? what it is contribute to oneself and one's society. what is the value of the art?

and does one even have a balance view to live one's life? if not then what good is SLT? similar to having a gun living in unsettle world ? similar to a music smooth one in the busy working environment?.. that everyone has to answer for oneself.

BTW, what is the purpose of your post? not giving approval to all others because you feel lack of control for yourself? do you know?

why do you do what you do in this forum? do you know? Until you know that how could you know about others if you dont know what is your mind set which is running your life? not to mention art.

Peace

Mr Punch

07-07-2007, 09:33 AM

Just for laughs... blah blah blahSummer has come... is that the sound of the crickets chirping? No? Crickets - d!ckheads - crickets - d!ckheads... say em quick enough and they sound similar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3zssGEl88Posting vids there T...? Is that one you?! Which one are you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BY7VLcO5CsFinally! This must be a video of yourself! :rolleyes:

OK, so let's say that some people use these methods to do what they call "opening points", loosening themselves up, whatever...

If nothing else, relaxation is important for fighting, no?
If nothing else, stretching is important for fighting, no?

(in terms of releasing energy through your punches, in terms of dropping your weight, basing out, tiring your opp out in groundfighting, in terms of purely taking damage...)

So, there are two reasons why this Emei stuff may be useful.

Well, I hear you whinge, why is it that thousands of MMAers can reach the pinnacle of their careers without using Emei mechanics for stretching out their joints (let's stick with the stretching example for simplicity)? A few years ago, no-one had heard of Pavel, and then his new stretching mechanics (though as we all know there's nothing new under the sun) took over a lot of the exercise/fight world, and now, well, a lot of people in MMA don't use any of Pavel's advice, and a few swear by it...

The joy of choice! Empirically, there are too many variables to finally say whether Pavel is breeding fighters. Empirically, there are far too few Emei practitioners in the world to make any judgment.

And then let's say, you can't fight. Let's say, you've got one two many oestrogen and not enough testosterone, I dunno, but whatever, you can't fight literally to save your life... and so you take up the deadly WC (I can certainly believe it with mouthboxing webfu hypocrites like you T), so then WC's pansy chainpunches are gonna seem like a good idea, right? So, then let's say you become THE badass: you've got the belief in what you do...

well there's another reason how Emei (or anything else) would help your fighting: Fedor uses visualization, Goodrich uses visualization, weightlifters use visualization, Silva, Sanchez, Rampage et al are Christians FFS - you don't get much more creative visualization than that! - Hell, most of these people use visualization; so there's another good reason for Emei.

On top of all that T, you do Chu sau lei don't you? Isn't there a whole thread burbling on about your precious ****ing structure that nobody else has? You say structure, Hendrik says engine... you say tomato, I say you're a hypocritical
gobsh!te...!

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed - bit like an opera contest without fat blokes) and we all take it on trust that it's something to do with the testimonialed-up-the-yazoo structure that we can't see... so how many of these Emei people have you tested out then, T? Or are you just judging it by vid?

If nothing else, cricket, Robert Chu himself (so isn't he your sifu or sigung or something?) has just come on and said they're linked, so please, just STFU and leave the coversation to those who may have something constructive to say.

BTW, whoever posted that vid of the 96 yr-old geezer doing that bit on the dummy, that was marvelous! I hope I'm half as spry as he is at that age. It's good to see some people are keeping up with tradition, regardless of how useful it may or may not be in a fight (at 96 or any age!).

BTW2, Hendrik, I like your posts, even if I don't agree with a lot of it, but PLEASE stop posting irrelevant links to shockingly bad music. Thank you.

Please sprinkle the above post with liberal :rolleyes::p:D:eek: etc... but mostly :D and :rolleyes:

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 09:49 AM

BTW, whoever posted that vid of the 96 yr-old geezer doing that bit on the dummy, that was marvelous! I hope I'm half as spry as he is at that age. It's good to see some people are keeping up with tradition, regardless of how useful it may or may not be in a fight (at 96 or any age!). -----

This clip is valueable because it serve as data point on what WCK is like in the 1930's.

We need to keep this type of records for every family or lineage. These are treasure for the art of WCK.

BTW2, Hendrik, I like your posts, even if I don't agree with a lot of it, but PLEASE stop posting irrelevant links to shockingly bad music. Thank you. ------

You are welcome.

1, I dont always right since similar with you I am just a human.

2, my agenda is simple, similar to a lots of others who realized the art of WCK is much vast, deep, and colorfull or multi-dimentional (the analogy is comparing the 70's martial art movies and today's Jacky chan advanture movie see how broad even hong kong movie has become)

So we need to boost all of us WCners to a higher Vibration, we cant live in the 70's narrow screeen hong kong movie life anymore.

There are mental, breathing, body, ..... all of those we need to face in today's society and there are lost tract of WCK due to the war/chaos time between 1890 to 1980 of china. We need to simply face them accept them and iron things out.

3, IMHO, it is better to promote WCK as a positive art similar to music then to promote what is could do to harm others. for we dont live in fight and flight everyday and dont want to because those type of living is a sickness and very likely cause major health issues.

people doesnt have to agree with me, however take a look at spring time, is it positive or is it about kill kill bang bang and taking pride of how to harm others? Saying that I didnt say WCK cant be used similar to we dont promote neuclear bomb but we do have it if it is needed. But ofcause we rather never use it.

Finally,

Terence is not a problem. it is the subsconcious program within Terence mind which is running his soul and he doesnt aware of is the problem. so Terence is similar to a computer, some bug or virus is running wild in there and the computer dont know. this type of problem if spread will cause imbalance in others life. and have a big possibility that it is causing the computer wearing out even faster then everyone knows. as the ancient will said, imbalance in the lower 3 chakra energy which usually could cause physical issue if prolong.

Let's pray for him for his healing instead of abandon him or lower our energy vibration to his level to argue with him. IMHO

Peace

Hendrik

07-07-2007, 10:02 AM

WCner's mission :D

Sun Shine--- Zhao yang.....

http://www.fandango.com/videos_1_763592/v+++328646

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 11:58 AM

But the art is defined by it's concepts.. If I ask the teacher to teach me WCK what will he do, KO me? No, it will be about the art in theory, then how to manifest that theory and then how to apply it..

No, this is what theorists like to believe -- and they like to believe it because they can then rationalize that the "know" a martial art (like WCK), because they "know the concepts", even though they can't perform (fight) particularly well. Martial art begins with skills, and is "defined" (if you want to look at it that way) by skills, not by "concepts".

The 'art' is a thing...more an idea or idea set..

This idea set is then applied... Does the art <idea set> only exist when the idea set it is applied? Not logical IMO, since the idea set gives rise to the action...

It is the art which gives rise to the art in application, where art is an idea set...

Idea sets are not objective they are quantifiable and thus measurable, free of error in their expression, since they are codified...

Expression of the idea set by a human must by definition be subject to human error and human limitations, in both expression and interpretation, and therefore by definition must be inconsistent and subjective. This unlike the idea set which can always be clear, consistent, measurable and objective..

And no one need to play the violin or the cello to compare them…nor could a complete comparison of the two be limited to play …

All of the above is nonsense. Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts", there is no "idea set", etc. You begin with skills, physical skills - using your body to do specific things, to accomplish specific tasks. Concepts can in some cases help us in applying our skills, in that they are essentially temporary substitutes for experience.

An addendum:

After some thought, I see your point. For *you*, and people like Hendrik, WCK is "a set of ideas" -- it's a belief structure. For me, however, it is a learned skill. You see apples and I see oranges. Not so surprising, then, that we don't agree on just about anything. :)

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 12:47 PM

OK, so let's say that some people use these methods to do what they call "opening points", loosening themselves up, whatever...

If nothing else, relaxation is important for fighting, no?
If nothing else, stretching is important for fighting, no?

You're missing the point. People relax and stretch in yoga class -- and this has nothing to do with developing fighting skills.

(in terms of releasing energy through your punches, in terms of dropping your weight, basing out, tiring your opp out in groundfighting, in terms of purely taking damage...)

So, there are two reasons why this Emei stuff may be useful.

Riding a bike "may be useful" too. ;)

People develop skills by doing those skills. You develop fighting skills by doing them. Yoga or Ermei may help you relax, it may help you stretch, it may lower your blood pressure, but they won't develop martial art (fighting) skills.

Well, I hear you whinge, why is it that thousands of MMAers can reach the pinnacle of their careers without using Emei mechanics for stretching out their joints (let's stick with the stretching example for simplicity)? A few years ago, no-one had heard of Pavel, and then his new stretching mechanics (though as we all know there's nothing new under the sun) took over a lot of the exercise/fight world, and now, well, a lot of people in MMA don't use any of Pavel's advice, and a few swear by it...

The joy of choice! Empirically, there are too many variables to finally say whether Pavel is breeding fighters. Empirically, there are far too few Emei practitioners in the world to make any judgment.

Are there *any* Ermei fighters in the world?

And then let's say, you can't fight. Let's say, you've got one two many oestrogen and not enough testosterone, I dunno, but whatever, you can't fight literally to save your life... and so you take up the deadly WC (I can certainly believe it with mouthboxing webfu hypocrites like you T), so then WC's pansy chainpunches are gonna seem like a good idea, right? So, then let's say you become THE badass: you've got the belief in what you do...

well there's another reason how Emei (or anything else) would help your fighting: Fedor uses visualization, Goodrich uses visualization, weightlifters use visualization, Silva, Sanchez, Rampage et al are Christians FFS - you don't get much more creative visualization than that! - Hell, most of these people use visualization; so there's another good reason for Emei.

What kind of nonsense is this? Fighters, who train like fighters and then use visualization as part of what they do is not the same as people who don't fight and who don't train like fighters doing visualization. It's apples and oranges. Why? Because to use visualization effectively your body needs to already have the "feel" of the skill in action. People who don't have the skill will be visualizing fantasy.

On top of all that T, you do Chu sau lei don't you? Isn't there a whole thread burbling on about your precious ****ing structure that nobody else has? You say structure, Hendrik says engine... you say tomato, I say you're a hypocritical
gobsh!te...!

First, I said that a few others do have the "body structure" that Hawkins/Robert emphasize in their teaching. It is, in my view, part and parcel of WCK. Second, I don't "say structure". If you bothered to read what I said before, I said there is really no such thing as "body structure", that what is really being talked about is a certain sort of body mechanics. Third, the use of these terms, like "engine", "DNA", etc. are just creating an extra, unnecessary, and misleading layer of theoretical nonsense in WCK.

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed - bit like an opera contest without fat blokes) and we all take it on trust that it's something to do with the testimonialed-up-the-yazoo structure that we can't see... so how many of these Emei people have you tested out then, T? Or are you just judging it by vid?

Here again is a classic example of flabby thought. Whether you agree with Alan or not, he has provided at least some measure of proof that he can do what he says he can do. Proof. Not just claims. Proof. In fighting. And even if you don't like the amatuer MMA events, he has sparred with headshots against good fighters, like at the Shark Tank, etc. Contrast that with Ermei -- where is there any evidence that any of this stuff works? Show me *one* Ermei fighter that can use this stuff in sparring against anyone with decent skills/attributes. You're right, I haven't tested this out against any Ermei fighters -- and I never will. Because they don't exist. But if you think this stuff actually is good, it is up to you to the people claiming it works to provide the proof.

Now, anyone reasonably intelligent - which seems to preclude a lot of people -- can see what fights are really like. There are vids of MMA/NHB/street/bar/etc. fights all over the web. Anyone who spars with decent people will *know* what sorts of things may work and what definately will not. Because they know that fighting is 100%, and that whatever you do needs to be able to deal with your opponent's 100% (power, speed, etc.), with what they will really dish out. That silly stuff just won't work.

If nothing else, cricket, Robert Chu himself (so isn't he your sifu or sigung or something?) has just come on and said they're linked, so please, just STFU and leave the coversation to those who may have something constructive to say.

Robert sees a similarity of movement. Fine. Do you think this somehow is an authoratative answer? But I'll defer to Robert, and assume that Yik Kam's SLT "looks" similar to E12J. (Which isn't surprising since I have heard that the Yik Kam kuit essentially Ermei's kuit). But so what? What does that prove? You can look at xing yi and see lots of similarities too. BFD. All TCMA is basically the same ingredient's just mixed together differently. So we can look at just about any two methods and see similarities.

There is that story of Chang (?) the Shuai-Jiao fighter who came upon someone doing his "form", and Chang told the guy that he was doing his Shuai-Jiao form all wrong. The guy replied that he was doing a tai ji form, not a Shuai-Jiao form. (Same ingredients). So Chang took the time to learn the form from the guy, and later used it to teach Shuai-Jiao.

AndrewS

07-07-2007, 01:36 PM

Let's pray for him for his healing instead of abandon him or lower our energy vibration to his level to argue with him. IMHO

Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

Alan Orr

07-07-2007, 01:53 PM

RE Mr Punch:

But wait, you've got proof! There's Alan Orr and his team - they're doing a great job (albeit in 'NHB' where head shots don't seem to be allowed

ALAN: I'm not sure why people only half read information.

My guys have be fighting in Pro MMA NHB fights.

The no head shots is the Amateur NHB contests which we do fight in.

But also we have had 3 wins in Pro NHB MMA with head shots and elbows.

We have add a boxing match win as well.

We have had kick boxing 7 wins.

All these events have head shots.

Amateur NHB is a lot harder that you think anyway. Try it.

Regards

Alan

t_niehoff

07-07-2007, 02:24 PM

Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

No, more like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TbE5HtqU7us

;)

AndrewS

07-07-2007, 02:39 PM

Terence writes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewS
Low level energy vibration?

Sounds like. . .

BASS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=piomkpDqBdQ

Andrew

No, more like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TbE5HtqU7us

That may Hendricks' low level vibration. . .

Here's mine

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K6Wnx6mdwHs

Wu Wei Wu

07-07-2007, 04:05 PM

Andrew,

I came across this pretty high level vibration:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kZGvnI37mxk

WWW

Liddel

07-07-2007, 04:46 PM

I could see similarities in energy creation with regard to actions. Be it very small ones....

Rotating forearms inside to out in one part of the vid has similar torque energy to certain actions in my VT. I.E Tan Sao....

I agree with some - its a big ask though "Drawing a long Bow" as Andrew put it.

I mean what do simlarities mean anyway....
- Direct link, or
- Coincedence :rolleyes:

You'll never know.
Drawing similarities between VT Kuen and something like that, is akin to watching someone trip over a crack in the ground, recover and saying - hey thats the end action in BJ. :rolleyes:

Then again, if you agree with terrence about MA's and sport having close ties, then the fact you see similarities would be because the human body is govern by its natural skeletal mechanics.

Which would mean, all human physical endevour would have similarities.....depending on the observers imagination :cool:

DREW

Ultimatewingchun

07-07-2007, 05:42 PM

"But also we have had 3 wins in Pro NHB MMA with head shots and elbows.
We have add a boxing match win as well.
We have had kick boxing 7 wins.
All these events have head shots." (Alan Orr)

***ANY CHANCE you could post a little video clip of one of these fights, Alan? (Even a 30-40 second clip would be good).

Would like to see it.

YungChun

07-08-2007, 10:56 AM

All of the above is nonsense. Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts", there is no "idea set", etc. You begin with skills, physical skills - using your body to do specific things, to accomplish specific tasks. Concepts can in some cases help us in applying our skills, in that they are essentially temporary substitutes for experience.

Lame rebuttal Terence..

"That's nonsense" means nothing.. Why? Because you say so?

H0m0sapiens--create ideas...then build those ideas through physical actions...

The mind, the ever creating, idea generator, is where all man made things come from......

To compare/study the thing, it only makes sense to study the idea in addiion to what it brings rise to.. To suggest otherwise is quite absurd/illogical and generally hard headed..

How do you know you are doing WCK? Because you are imitating your teacher and he said so? LMAO... You're argument speaks only of imitation and mimicry...

Sports involve and are based on rules and regulations...They are IN FACT based on, and are, ideas..

A tree for example, is not a man made thing, it's not a man made idea, so studying trees would only involve studying the tree, but one would still need to study the seed to get a complete picuture..

If a hundred years from now baseball was gone, after a great war and folks couldn't remember how to play it they would consult texts on baseball..assuming they didn't remember ALL the rules and guidelines and ideas on what the sport is and how to take advantage of those rules..

Tons of texts have been written about all major sports.. Whoa you'd better go tell those folks who have written about sports, ideas, strategies, rules, how the game is played, tips and tricks, that they all have their heads up their butts.. Likewise, the concepts and guidelines of what any MA is are defined by those ideas and are the seeds of what the founders of those arts planted in the hopes of the arts being passed on...

A scientific study of a thing involves studying all it's myriad parts, anything and everything that, by definition is part of that thing .. These WCK concepts that I am sure you teach using your mouth and body in class are in fact part of what the art is... THAT is a FACT sir..

If all that the art is can only be expressed by doing the art then I would expect the following in your class..

1. You only demonstrate the art through application..
2. Students must learn the art through imitating you..
3. Those who will learn are limited to performing the art at the level you demonstrate it at.
4. No knowledge is transferred by you other than by you fighting someone.

Texts/knowledge bases and concepts are a guide and allow folks to go beyond what you or someone else demonstrating the art can do... It gives them an idea; which is an ideal to shoot for..

When you teach, I am certain that your mouth is moving at a hundred miles an hour.. What's the first thing you teach new students and how do you do that? Beat someone up..? If not your argument doesn't match your method..

My guess is much of your teaching is done with that mouth of yours.. Before folks train something new that new thing has to be explained...

No doubt you have not reached the ideal so limiting students to what you can do, for example, would be limiting the art... Not to mention most folks could never learn the complete art by simply watching you demo how WCK beats people up....right?

I am sure there is much more to how you teach, right? RIGHT!

You use ideas and concepts to get the point across, right? RIGHT!

So you’re really full of it, right? RIGHT!

Hendrik

07-08-2007, 02:50 PM

Most of us dont like, dont know how to get deeper under the skin to find out what happen. or dont know they exist or dont accept they exist.

IMHO, it is not what is it under the skin which I am promoting.
But get deeper under the skin to examine things is the intention.

I could be right or wrong for the Emei connection. however, if everyone update/upgrade to be able to go under the skin. Then, we are have made progress.

Thus,
as I have heard,
for example, using the hip to punch as in karate and or other Southen CMA is very different compare to if one knows the NeiJIng or WaiJIng eventhough explicitly looks similar. not to mention, at the level of using the spining of Dan Tie to roll/ swing... out the power.
So, are we going to get stuck at thinking everything is same with Karate? or go deeper find out about what is the NeiJing and WaiJing way of implement things. and might go even deeper to find out how the spining of the Dan Tien which suppostly a faster way of handling physical is about; that is the level of lay lau hui song.... comes accept.....using the silence to handle the action. Silence is very important there as I have heard.

I convince, when people get to the level of spining Dan Tien... then they know, it is White crane and Emei 12 zhuang. However, in the general level It will be difficult to tell.

Just some thoughts.

Ultimatewingchun

07-08-2007, 04:07 PM

Why even argue with this guy, Jim? I mean, this is so retarded:

"Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts". (T)

***EVERY SPORT/COMPETITIVE PHYSICAL ENDEAVOR is based upon ideas and concepts. He purposely confuses attributes with principles - to suit his argumentative agenda.

AND THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE TOOK REVERSE POSITIONS, ie.- wing chun development (what you learn from forms, chi sao, etc. ) is actually hindered by competitive sparring.

Kinda like this:

:p :o

:D :D :D :D :D

YungChun

07-08-2007, 04:10 PM

Why even argue with this guy, Jim? I mean, this is so retarded:

"Theorists look at everything ass-backward. WCK is like any other physical activity, like basketball, like tennis, like boxing, like wrestling, etc. These things are not based on "ideas" or "concepts". (T)

***EVERY SPORT/COMPETITIVE PHYSICAL ENDEAVOR is based upon ideas and concepts. He purposely confuses attributes with principles - to suit his argumentative agenda.

AND THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE TOOK REVERSE POSITIONS, ie.- wing chun development is actually hindered by competitive sparring.

Kinda like this:

:p :o

:D :D :D :D :D

You're right of course... But it can be 'a dik tive'... :)

Mr Punch

07-08-2007, 05:28 PM

This clip is valueable because it serve as data point on what WCK is like in the 1930's.

We need to keep this type of records for every family or lineage. These are treasure for the art of WCK.Completely agreed.

Finally...
Terence is not a problem. ...Well, thank you, I've reached my higher vibration for the day: I'm still vibrating with laughter! :D

Mr Punch

07-08-2007, 05:40 PM

RE Mr Punch:
ALAN: I'm not sure why people only half read information.****, sorry I couldn't remember every post on the forum! :D But seriously, my sincere apologies for missing some of that...

I wasn't attacking you at all btw. i think what you're doing is pretty cool. But, Iw as using you as an example: a lot of chunners take you as proof that WC works, when they don't use the same body mechanics as you. Terence too, uses you as proof that his body mechanics work: we should listen to him because of you achievements, which is cheap **** IMO. I'm not trying to stir anything; I don't know either of you personally, and you two prob do know each other, but all I'm saying is, T comes down on Emei people for having had no proven fighters (when there must be almost literally only a handful of Emei people in the world anyway) and HE has no proof of anything. He takes their vid apart and then says you can't tell anything without feeling it.

Get what I'm saying?

Then on top of that, he says we don't even have proof that many of the 'past masters' even existed, which seems to be

a) dissing the whole of the people who developed the art, however much it's evolved and however irrelevant the art they developed is to modern fighting, and

b) Taking the whole (video) proof thing to a ridiculous level: I haven't seen any proof of the Romans invading Britain, but I know it happened. Why? Because of books and their stories... pretty much like some of the stories of the old masters.

Amateur NHB is a lot harder that you think anyway.Hold up pal, just here you don't know wtf I know or think about amateur NHB.
Try it.As I'm sure you're aware, sometimes it's difficult to even get any.

Hendrik

07-08-2007, 07:13 PM

SLT, music..... all is art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFJYrXzaLlo

enjoy and have an excellent week to come.

Peace

t_niehoff

07-10-2007, 08:04 AM

Lame rebuttal Terence..

"That's nonsense" means nothing.. Why? Because you say so?

H0m0sapiens--create ideas...then build those ideas through physical actions...

The mind, the ever creating, idea generator, is where all man made things come from......

Of course the brain (mind) is the source of everything we do (I couldn't breath without my brain), but that doesn't mean that "ideas" are the source of everything. You are looking at WCK as an belief system, not a physical activity (like a sport is a physical activity).

To compare/study the thing, it only makes sense to study the idea in addiion to what it brings rise to.. To suggest otherwise is quite absurd/illogical and generally hard headed..

How do you know you are doing WCK? Because you are imitating your teacher and he said so? LMAO... You're argument speaks only of imitation and mimicry...

How do I know that I am playing basketball or tennis or boxing or BJJ? It's not imitation or mimicy. You learn the tools/skills of that activity and then do the activity. Same for WCK: you learn the tools/skills of WCK and then do the activity (fight).

Sports involve and are based on rules and regulations...They are IN FACT based on, and are, ideas..

You don't learn or develop physical skills, like the ability to throw a ball or ride a bike or dribble a basketball or throw a punch or surf, through intellectual means (although there will be reflection). You develop those physical skills by physically doing them. Of course to learn a new skill from someone you need to have the parameters of that skill (the task, features, etc.) communicated to you, by observation, through words, etc. But that communication is always by its very nature incomplete, not controlling.

A tree for example, is not a man made thing, it's not a man made idea, so studying trees would only involve studying the tree, but one would still need to study the seed to get a complete picuture..

If a hundred years from now baseball was gone, after a great war and folks couldn't remember how to play it they would consult texts on baseball..assuming they didn't remember ALL the rules and guidelines and ideas on what the sport is and how to take advantage of those rules..

Tons of texts have been written about all major sports.. Whoa you'd better go tell those folks who have written about sports, ideas, strategies, rules, how the game is played, tips and tricks, that they all have their heads up their butts.. Likewise, the concepts and guidelines of what any MA is are defined by those ideas and are the seeds of what the founders of those arts planted in the hopes of the arts being passed on...

A ton may have been written about basketball, tennis, BJJ, and WCK, but you don't learn or develop skill in those things by reading. You develop skill in all those physical activities by doing them. The reading is secondary. (Lots of people get really good without the reading, but no one gets good without the doing).

Now, w/r/t WCK -- a lot has been written (and taught), but mostly (almost all of it) by people who have very little real skill in WCK, fighting skill with WCK tools. Imagine if people who couldn't play basketbball worth sh1t wrote the books on how to play basketball -- how valuable would they be? These people are passing on "ideas" that they cannot put into action beyond a superficial level. We all "talk" about the centerline, but ask ten different WCK people what it is, what it means, its significance, etc. and you get 10 different answers. And which of them can actually use this "concept", can actually put it to work successfully in fighting decently skilled fighters? Yet they all "believe" they are correct. This is the conceptual approach: begin with an ill-conceived idea of how fighting/WCK "should" be (based mainly on what you were told by someone who couldn't do it), then reinforce that erroneous idea through unrealistic training, derive more ideas from this unrealistic practice, and repeat.

From my perspective, it isn't what you know - or more accurately believe you know -- but what you can actually do, in fighting, and at the level you can do it at (the quality level of your opponent) that is important. And your understanding is directly related to that level of skill, your level of performance ability. Begin with the fight (the activity), and let application be your sifu (IOWs, do what you do in every other physical activity -- let your actual results guide you in your development). In this way, you are not bound to ideas/concepts, you are bound to results - ways in which you can get the optimal results with the WCK tools in fighting.

A scientific study of a thing involves studying all it's myriad parts, anything and everything that, by definition is part of that thing .. These WCK concepts that I am sure you teach using your mouth and body in class are in fact part of what the art is... THAT is a FACT sir..

WCK, like BJJ and boxing, have cerain fundamental skills that need to be learned, developed, etc. That is mainly accomplished by showing the various skills/tools to the trainee and then having them practice them. Corrections are given as needed. Advice is given as needed. Sometimes this can be generalized (a concept) and sometimes it is specific. In my view, the less "theory" the better.

If all that the art is can only be expressed by doing the art then I would expect the following in your class..

1. You only demonstrate the art through application..
2. Students must learn the art through imitating you..
3. Those who will learn are limited to performing the art at the level you demonstrate it at.
4. No knowledge is transferred by you other than by you fighting someone.

I teach WCK as I would teach tennis or basketball -- help them learn and develop the various tools/skills (often individualized) they will need to play, help them learn and develop the strategies and tactics to use those skills in the overall game, play the game (spar) a lot, analyze their play with them, make corrections, play some more. I don't transfer knowledge -- they learn by doing, and so develop their own WCK.

Texts/knowledge bases and concepts are a guide and allow folks to go beyond what you or someone else demonstrating the art can do... It gives them an idea; which is an ideal to shoot for..

An objective doesn't have to be some "idea" -- it can be a very real and tangible thing (an outcome, for example).

When you teach, I am certain that your mouth is moving at a hundred miles an hour.. What's the first thing you teach new students and how do you do that? Beat someone up..? If not your argument doesn't match your method..

My guess is much of your teaching is done with that mouth of yours.. Before folks train something new that new thing has to be explained...

No doubt you have not reached the ideal so limiting students to what you can do, for example, would be limiting the art... Not to mention most folks could never learn the complete art by simply watching you demo how WCK beats people up....right?

I am sure there is much more to how you teach, right? RIGHT!

You use ideas and concepts to get the point across, right? RIGHT!

So you’re really full of it, right? RIGHT!

Have you ever gone to a BJJ class? How much taking do they do? You are shown a few techniques, some of the finer points may be highlighted, you pair up and practice them, if you have questions/problems you may ask the instructor for help. Then you spar. It's not too different for boxing or muay thai. Not a whole lot of gabbing going on. That's why they call it training and not a lecture. ;)

For me, WCK is fairly straightforward and is a small method. There's not a great deal to talk about in terms of theory or concepts (most of what I hear I think is nonsense). And more often than not, talk only gets in the way in the gym. I know that for myself, I don't want to hear someone tell me how to do it or how it "should" be done, I want to see someone do it (in fighting), see how it *can* (not should) be done, and then try to do it for myself.

YungChun

07-10-2007, 11:54 AM

t_niehoff

07-10-2007, 12:31 PM

I hear you Terence...

IMO WCK is:

1. A combative training system/methodology..
2. A fighting system/methodology..

IMO the only way you can claim you are actually doing WCK is by comparing your fighting methodology with the training system/methodology.. Much or all of the latter is contained in the forms which you already awknowleged are the 'texts' of the system, and in the WCK concepts passed in these forms, drills and Kuen Kuit...

If you choose to not go by this standard, the WCK core, then what your doing might as well be Terence Kune Do... And in my opinion, and from what I have seen, read and get from you, that's exactly what you're doing..

And I think that's fine...

Good luck with that... :D

You can have some "idea" of what you believe WCK is, Hendrik may have another, and someone else another -- you are all going to tell me what "is" WCK, and what is "good", what is "bad", why "your WCK is better than his WCK", etc. This is all just belief structure, and ultimately fantasy. Your "standard" is a belief, and you point to your interpretation of things that are vague (forms, drills, kuit) to support your belief. For me, your belief is irrelevant; I'm only interested in what you can do.

Yes, the "forms" are texts, but not in the sense you see them. Imagine if I created a tennis form, where I linked together various skills (the real core of any method is the skills) - forehand, backhand, drop shot, serve, charging the net, etc. - as a teaching device. That form is not in itself tennis (though it may represent some of the skills of tennis), and cannot impose any standards - because there are no standards other than performance. Your tennis ability is determined by your performance on the court. How well your forehand or backhand is will not be determined by some objective, theoretical standard, and not by how well you mimic the form, but by how well (hard, deep, accurately) you can actually hit the ball (performance). Your "ideas" on how a groundstroke"should" be performed isn't in any way controlling; what is controlling is your results.

In terms of WCK, your skill, and attendant knowledge/understanding is in how well you can use the tools/skills of WCK (those skills represented in the forms) in fighting -- your performance ability. You see WCK as essentially an intellectual and/or philosophical pursuit (with conceptual standards, etc.) and assume this represents the "best" way. In my view, this is because you do not appreciate that WCK is no different (in kind) than any other athletic activity, and that's not how any open-skill, athletic activity works. I see WCK as a physical skill (the ability to do something) comprised to a large extent by some sub-skills.

All fighters, whether in BJJ or boxing or WCK, must like all athletes in any open skill athletic activity (or sport), develop their own game, their own BJJ, their own boxing or their own WCK. So, although I am not doing "Terence Kune Do", I am doing Terence's WCK -- just as I am doing Terence's BJJ and Terence's tennis.

monji112000

07-10-2007, 01:05 PM

All fighters, whether in BJJ or boxing or WCK, must like all athletes in any open skill athletic activity (or sport), develop their own game, their own BJJ, their own boxing or their own WCK. So, although I am not doing "Terence Kune Do", I am doing Terence's WCK -- just as I am doing Terence's BJJ and Terence's tennis.

its a proven fact that Lipp Kune do is the most deadly:) martial art on the planet.

Hendrik

07-10-2007, 03:54 PM

could anyone who has the Siu Tze jong of the 12 jong clip post the first half of it?

t_niehoff

07-11-2007, 05:21 AM

its a proven fact that Lipp Kune do is the most deadly:) martial art on the planet.

Oh, ouch!, quite the comback! ;)

We're on a forum so all we can to is talk. Of course, not all talk is equal. Some people, especially the crude one's who can't really defend their views - with either substance or evidence - resort to ad hominem attacks. I guess I should expect the name calling to soon follow.

Hendrik

07-22-2007, 12:00 AM

Emei 12 Zhuang connection will open up another chapter of WCK. That is forsure.... That is just a begining.

and we need to start somewhere..

enjoy the music, somedays the music will start...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpYr6aSLMoU

Hendrik

07-29-2007, 10:15 PM

A section of the Little letter Zhuang at the second half of the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/v/uKASkDfmV9g

canglong

07-30-2007, 01:24 AM

Byond1,
Have you ever examined the possiblilty that Yik Kam was trained in Emei and that was incorporated into his wing chun but not that of Wong Wah Bo or Leung Yi Tai? Since not all White Crane can be placed under the same umbrella why throw in wing chun. Isn't it more plausible that Yik Kam if mixed with emei, white crane and wing chun this would help explain why the Yik Kam lineage is close to emie but still different than white crane and wing chun families that have an oral history equal in timeline to that of Yik Kam.

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 07:31 AM

Youtube.com link to clips on Hendrik discussing Yik Kam SLT

Part 1a:
http://www.youtube.com/v/zKWVOc2HOig

Part 1b:
http://www.youtube.com/v/p3ntCGIoMvM

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/v/uKASkDfmV9g

please

compare the art of Slt of different lineages such as YKS....... to the little letter zhuang of emei above, and see what happen.

here we start with a time capsule before the 60's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

if you could find the YKS SLT .. please post it and let everyone see ...

pay attention to the naure of finger handling of all lineages... since WCK is know for its feminine and speciality in finger... ask the question, does WCK train the finger ... similar to hung gar ?

such as

these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&NR=1

or there always a feminin style where more and more fade away today?

The DNA characteristics is written in the details with --- Crane, Snake, Finger, Feminine....

peace

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 12:07 PM

still my favorite

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808590078/trailer

click on dance

byond1

07-30-2007, 06:05 PM

Canglong -

Currently the AWCKRI research work is starting from what is more.."known". Starting with linking Opera Boat WCK to White Crane is essential as the first step. We plan on clearly comparing and contrasting White Crane with Opera Boat WCK. If we can define what was given to OB WCK from White Crane, it will be clear, what material didnt come from the White Crane. We will than have a starting point for investigation for the Snake boxing art.

I would say anything is a possibility in the world of WCK.

byond1

07-30-2007, 06:08 PM

Hendrik -

Great sharing. Im going to watch them, and let the information sink in a bit.

B

Hendrik

07-30-2007, 09:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGbSvl68RE

another slt. compare this to the small letter zhuang above and see....

anyone care to vote for the poll now after watching the emei 12 zhuang's Siu Tze Zhuang?

canglong

07-30-2007, 10:07 PM

originally posted by Byond1
Starting with linking Opera Boat WCK to White Crane is essential as the first step.Shouldn't that state that you are starting at the Opera boats in order to sort things out. If you state a preference for WCK to be linked to White Crane aren't you placing the cart before the horse?

Hendrik

07-31-2007, 11:09 AM

Hendrik -

Great sharing. Im going to watch them, and let the information sink in a bit.

B

Brian,

Get the white crane's Ba Fen Clip from the Pan family of China. (please post it here if you have the clip)

Fuse it

with the Siu Tze Zhuang above.

Now,
See what it becomes.

or even do it scientifically with high tech physics analysis and simulation. we have the technology today. no need time machine but multi-diamentional structure dynamic simulation and analysis. perhaps with spline....and tenso vector analysis based.

one could use computer dynamic/resultant force vectors analysis and see what is the likely of fusing the above two become----- SLT/SNT type of dynamics.

Or via computer simulartion, fuse the two above and see what kind of results come out...

you might cracking the code of Miu Shun..

peace

byond1

07-31-2007, 06:52 PM

Canglong -

To clairify , what I am calling "Opera boat WCK"
are branchs of WCK, that trace their lineages to Ng Mui and then the opera boats, NOT any other tradition.

Hence I clearly state Opera Boat WCK, so im not making a blanket statement which wouldnt be fair to say HFY or Pao Fa Lien, as they preserve differant traditions, which it isnt my place to connect their beliefs to my beliefs or my lineage tradition nor my research. Im using the term "Opera boat WCK" to limit what I am talking about, so others can understand and relate.

YKS Family, MGW Family Cheung Bo Family, Lo Kwai Family, Yiu Choi Family, Cho Family (traditionaly), Kulo Village/Fung Family, Yip Man Foshan Family, and Chan Family all trace their art to Ng Mui. Most of the traditions clearly define her as a "White Crane boxer" and that either she or a student of hers fused the Crane boxing with a Snake boxing style.

I dont know where White Crane boxing came from. At this point, I dont care, and thats for others to research - Shaolin?? Hakka?? Both?? Hence there is variation to where Ng Mui was from, and is neither here nor there.

Our goal is to substantiate the oral tradition of Ng Mui and White Crane boxing and to clearly define what aspects of Opera Boat WCK are from the White Crane parent.

Working with the Opera troups and trying to prove WCK was on the boats, IMO, will never happen. There is very little historical information from the time of the T ai Ping and the Opera ban. Info doesnt really pick up until the ban lifted. So, Just as HFY lineage chooses to call itself Shaolin, other branchs choose to call themselves Opera boat. Its simply what are individual lineages relate themselves to.

If we can substantiate a link to White Crane technicaly - than I will be happy and content.

byond1

07-31-2007, 08:03 PM

Hendrik

07-31-2007, 09:02 PM

Hendrik

Do you have video conferancing? It took me several weeks to figure this out, but at freedownloads.com , I dowloaded Skytype for free. This week, If you have the time and inclination, I would like to chat.

I think you will be very surprised at how close my ideas of Snake and Crane, are to what you demonstrated.

B

Brian,

I dont have the set up for video conferencing. However, feel free to drop by when you are around.

as for how close is your ideas on the Snake and Crane, Certainly, WCK is WCK, as soon as we all dig deep enough we will see the same stuffs because we all share the same ancestors. I am not exclusive.

we were discussing on wck.com with Robert and Jim.. there are 7 matches that pointing to Emei 12 Zhuang. please feel free to join in. This is no longer my matter but everyone's every WCner's matter. Hope that we all start a new exciting Volume for WCK's history. let us all make our WCK history together across all lineages.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Hendrik

07-31-2007, 09:09 PM

If we can substantiate a link to White Crane technicaly - than I will be happy and content.

Brian,

IMHO

Yes,

Zhao Yang the Facing Sun is the solid evidence or the umbilical cord to the mother and as solid as gold.

Lucky that Yik Kam and the Cho ancestors has preserved it down to GM Cho Hong-Choy.

Close the case, the rest is only about releasing more kuen kuit to the public. IMHO. I dont release the kuit to the public because I promise to secure the core. otherwise, if the core was destroy within the family accidentally or naively then the ancestors' blood line is cut off or wip out forever. and now, the core is secure in the USA as more practitioners of Yik Kam lineage surface from Russell, Robert, Jim.....

As Gm CHC put it, return it to the WCners when the time is right...

and I have only two request, please remember Yik Kam, Cho ancestors, and my sifu Cho Hong-Choy without them the information preservation is not possible. and use it for Loving Kindness and peace. WCK is about spring not about killing.

Best Regards
Hendrik

duende

08-01-2007, 09:55 AM

All that has been provided here as so called proof is merely a bunch of speculative talk and some highly questionable linking of video's from different TMA's doing chi gong meditation and forms.

This is utter nonsense. Sorry, but Hendrik's video of himself talking about snake and crane energy is not impressive or enlightening in the least to any truly experienced TMA. Let's here him talk about dragon, tiger and leopard as well and then well start to see the bigger picture.

I must say I agree with Tony on this one.

Byond1,
Have you ever examined the possiblilty that Yik Kam was trained in Emei and that was incorporated into his wing chun but not that of Wong Wah Bo or Leung Yi Tai? Since not all White Crane can be placed under the same umbrella why throw in wing chun. Isn't it more plausible that Yik Kam if mixed with emei, white crane and wing chun this would help explain why the Yik Kam lineage is close to emie but still different than white crane and wing chun families that have an oral history equal in timeline to that of Yik Kam.

Show me Yik Kam's WCK used effectively as a fighting art. Let's see what it looks like then.

Show me it's wooden dummy, show me it's butterfly swords, show me it's 6 and 1/2 point pole. Or does Yik Kam say that these do not come from Shaolin either???

And yes... take a look at "Pa Fa Lin Wing Chun" video. How fortunate we are to have this video document. Look at his "off on"energy when confronting the wooden dummy that expresses both hard and soft. Look at his gate coverage... look at his simultaneous attack and defence.... look at his centerline facing.

I've yet to see any of these things expressed so clean cut or effectively by any of Hendrik's videos.

Finally look at his SLT form. It's a tragic mistake to downplay a 96 year old man's running through his SLT with general hand motions and shapes and link it with a lineage that has mixed up it's art with White crane and Emei.

Look closer... at his movements. You can clearly see gate theory concept, and also heaven human earth range and energy generating, along with many many other techniques not only in found YM, but HFY and Chi Sim as well.

It is not uncommon for any WC practioner to run through his SLT relaxed this way and focus on flowing.

Let's be clear.... if Hendrik wants to say that his lineage comes from white crane and Emei. FIne...... that is certainly understandable. However, Yik Kam's Kune Kuits apply to Yik Kam's ancestors only.

The rest of WC (that comes from Yik Kam's Sihing btw) not only have are own history that goes to Shaolin, but our own kune Kuits that are readily expressed in our forms, weapons and fighting applications.

canglong

08-01-2007, 12:19 PM

byond1,
So how could the results of this poll be anything than what they are if Cho family members don't even agree with your assessment of hendrik's views?
originally posted by hendrik
Same with you Robert,
I don't force anyone to side with me, that include those in the Cho family who believe otherways.
originally posted by byond1
YKS Family, MGW Family Cheung Bo Family, Lo Kwai Family, Yiu Choi Family, Cho Family (traditionaly), Kulo Village/Fung Family, Yip Man Foshan Family, and Chan Family all trace their art to Ng Mui. Most of the traditions clearly define her as a "White Crane boxer" and that either she or a student of hers fused the Crane boxing with a Snake boxing style.You are only naming one line of succession compared to Hung Gun Biu, Pao Fa Lin and Wong Wah Bo & Leung Yee Tai 3 different lineages with oral traditions stating Ng Mui was from Shaolin. Because of the fact that more wing chun families trace their roots to Ng Mui & Shaolin than white crane it might very well be said that you are administering a very liberal and biased use of the term most and that is adversely influencing your research and possibly hindering it thus far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng_Mui

Nick Forrer

08-01-2007, 05:24 PM

The rest of WC (that comes from Yik Kam's Sihing btw) not only have are own history that goes to Shaolin, but our own kune Kuits that are readily expressed in our forms, weapons and fighting applications.

Its a little presumptious of you to speak for the rest of wing chun isnt it? Or at the very least you are doing exactly what you are accusing Hendrik of doing (making blanket statements about where all wing chun comes from - although in your case with less evdience). Look at YKS, early Yip man (lun Gai/Foshan), Gulao etc. All similar frames/engines - tho maybe different mode of presentation. People can now see this on you tube - so no need to rely on hearsay. Plus there is cho gar (yik kam) wing chun clips too from Eric Ling - so you can see some Jong and Pole if you search. Whats the big deal if people want to look for common threads between lineages and try and reverse engineer opera boat wing chun and then make a comparison with white crane and emei? If they are so off base with their speculation won't it be obvious? Why so defensive?

byond1

08-01-2007, 08:21 PM

A more accurate statement would be:

~Almost~ all WCK branchs trace their art to Ng Mui in some way. In fact only HFY WCK, Fut Sau WCK, one of two branchs of Pao Fa Lien (which the branch from Gwok Gai clearly states Ng Mui) and Pan Nam if you take his later beliefs ( instead of his earlier beliefs which were from Ng Mui) - do not.

Another accurate statement would be:

Out of all the WCK branchs that trace their art to Ng Mui in some way, at least half of them, trace her to shaolin.

So, if im understanding properly, your suggesting Ng Mui didnt practise White Crane kung fu because she is from Shaolin?? So you know White Crane isnt from Shaolin?

When you say ""You are only naming one line of succession" thats incorrect. I was actualy naming arts that followed from 4 differant Opera actors, with
8 sub variations.

Perhaps you should stick to your own history and let me stick to mine. As I have stated my research has nothing to do with your branch or any branch not from the Opera Troupes. As I have stated, where White crane is from, is none of my concern currently - My concern is linking OPERA BOAT WCK to Ng Mui and the WHite Crane system.

Wayfaring

08-01-2007, 08:57 PM

byond1,

Do the WCK families you know who trace roots to Ng Mui believe this was an actual person? Or a made up allegorical person representing the qualities of wing chun?

byond1

08-01-2007, 09:39 PM

Great question Warfaring.

The answer is...Both. And more.

Ng Mui is looked at as either:

1) Allegorical of a specific system of maritial arts or thought - IE a form of White Crane or WCK , as the name "Ng Mui" has extremly deep meaning in the White Crane and WCK Opera Boat systems.

2) Myth -along side the other 4 elders - that may or may not have been based on real people and real situations.

3) An actual real female nun White Crane or Wing chun Master

4) A nickname for a real person that very well may have been a male, that had to hide their name, and used a term relating to the system of Kung Fu they practised, IE White crane as the name "Ng Mui" again has extrely deep meaning in the White Crane system

5) A rehashing of the White Crane Boxing Founder Miss Fang

byond1

08-01-2007, 09:49 PM

Using this as a dichotomoy isnt the most factual method in my opinion:

1) Non Shaolin WCK

2) Shaolin WCK

Probably over 75% of all Asian martial arts trace themselves to Shaolin. Making the above dichotomy very..unclear.

What would be best for EVERYONE involved - respecting each others branchs, would be this:

1) Opera boat/Water WCK

2) Temple/Land WCK

See??

Opera Troupe WCK is any branch stemming from development on the boats, on the water - Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa Min Kam, Gu lo Chung or Yik kam.

Temple WCK is any branch stemming from development on land, village, temple or other.

The AWCKRI has nothing to do with NON Opera Boat WCK - As long as others stay out of our buisiness, we stay out of theirs - Nice and clean.

The community has been ravaged for years by internal bickering. Time to put that to rest. Lets all keep our eyes on our own plates, and coexist peacefully.

byond1

08-01-2007, 10:01 PM

Just to add a bit of info on Pao Fa Lien.

Currently their are 2 branchs of Pao Fa Lien. The better known branch, from :

Pao Fa Lien > Chu Chong > Mok Po On > Leo Man

Their art is supposedly from Dai Dong Fung from the North, who taught the Tze brothers, who both taught Pao Fa Lien

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other branch is from the last living student of Pao Fa Lien and Sihing of Chu Chong named Gwok Gai - who is the 96 year old master in the video others were discussing.

Pao Fa Lien > Gwok Gai

He preserves that their art is from Ng Mui and Leung Bok Lau like other WCK branchs. And that the Tze brothers learned it from someone, and passed it down to Pao Fa Lien.

Of cource the system was never called Pao Fa Lien, until his students used the term, as it was Lao Dat Sangs (Pao Fa Liens ) nickname, and they wanted to pay homage to him

duende

08-02-2007, 01:44 AM

Its a little presumptious of you to speak for the rest of wing chun isnt it? Or at the very least you are doing exactly what you are accusing Hendrik of doing (making blanket statements about where all wing chun comes from - although in your case with less evdience). Look at YKS, early Yip man (lun Gai/Foshan), Gulao etc. All similar frames/engines - tho maybe different mode of presentation. People can now see this on you tube - so no need to rely on hearsay. Plus there is cho gar (yik kam) wing chun clips too from Eric Ling - so you can see some Jong and Pole if you search. Whats the big deal if people want to look for common threads between lineages and try and reverse engineer opera boat wing chun and then make a comparison with white crane and emei? If they are so off base with their speculation won't it be obvious? Why so defensive?

Hey Nick,

Not being defensive... just calling it like I see it. And some of these connections presented are just simply absurd.

You mentioned early YM student Lun Kai....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vtky5gTTbs

and saying it has a similar frames/engines to Cho Gar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQz4rJqpvg

I would have to completely disagree. Just look how different the two masters bridge with there opponents in the example clips above.

The Lun Kai (early YM) master clearly demonstrates a control of his opponants body structure at the "human" gate. You can see how he does this by way of a strong bridge made at his opponants elbow... which therefore controls his opponants spine. This demonstates a knowledge of Heaven Human Earth structure concepts. His angle of facing/flanking is also expressed in a much a very different manner. Notice how he takes over his opponants space and forces his opponent to bend and yield to his angles of attack.

While on the other hand look at the Cho Gar master... See how he bridges?? There is no control of the opponants body structure whatsoever. He bridges at the fore arm with his energy going outward or to the ground. There is no successful tracing and manipulation of energy to his opponants center. Not once is his opponant's space dominated or compromised. Except for the silly body blow... which I won't even comment on.

Clearly these two lineages of WC are not demonstrating the same awareness of energy, space or heaven human earth leverage control.

Anyways.... I appreciate the work Brian's doing for his site, and I'm all for people focusing on there own areas of WC historical research... But frankly, many of Hendrick's claims lack substance.

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 07:49 AM

Hey Nick,

Not being defensive... just calling it like I see it. And some of these connections presented are just simply absurd.

You mentioned early YM student Lun Kai....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vtky5gTTbs

and saying it has a similar frames/engines to Cho Gar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQz4rJqpvg

I would have to completely disagree. Just look how different the two masters bridge with there opponents in the example clips above.

The Lun Kai (early YM) master clearly demonstrates a control of his opponants body structure at the "human" gate. You can see how he does this by way of a strong bridge made at his opponants elbow... which therefore controls his opponants spine. This demonstates a knowledge of Heaven Human Earth structure concepts. His angle of facing/flanking is also expressed in a much a very different manner. Notice how he takes over his opponants space and forces his opponent to bend and yield to his angles of attack.

While on the other hand look at the Cho Gar master... See how he bridges?? There is no control of the opponants body structure whatsoever. He bridges at the fore arm with his energy going outward or to the ground. There is no successful tracing and manipulation of energy to his opponants center. Not once is his opponant's space dominated or compromised. Except for the silly body blow... which I won't even comment on.

Clearly these two lineages of WC are not demonstrating the same awareness of energy, space or heaven human earth leverage control.

Anyways.... I appreciate the work Brian's doing for his site, and I'm all for people focusing on there own areas of WC historical research... But frankly, many of Hendrick's claims lack substance.

excellent points!

I sure agree with you, and certainly would love to know what is WCK.

Since it is about Cho Gar,
I leave it to the Cho Gar expert such as PTNK and may be even Eric or others to explain why and how it is WCK.

As for many of my claims lack of substance. hahaha,

1, I am not a God, thus, i could make mistake.
however, I would never make claim which is time travelling such as one person from the red boat era learn with some one 100 years before his time.

Such as those making claim of Shao Lin this or Shao Lin monk or Yat Chan or Jee Shim that without even think about how the heck one guy learn from those who is living 100 or 200 years before thier time. time travelling?

There is no evidents present on if Yat Chan exist and also
isnt it Jee Shim got kill by Bak Mei in the burning of Shao Lin temple? so why learn from Jee Shim? might as well go study Bak Mei who survive the Shao Lin burning, if one want to use the story as Real stuffs.

see. All these common sense stuffs but some just blindly take it as the Truth. so, what is the evidents and substance on this type of core?

Emei 12 Zhuang ? exist! White Crane from Fujian ? Exist! check them out in the chinese history from different angle for the past 400 years. go a head, dig it in dig it deep. see for yourself dont have to take my words.

2, if I present 100 things; 2 out of 100 might not be well and solid, but what about that 98 which I have solid substance?

IE: the emei connection, we present atleast matching to 7 areas. Now, how about your Shao Lin claim? how many matching do you have on your claiming? I would love to see you to present as detail and as specific as I present the matching of these 7 areas.

See, it is cheep to sit there complain about this and that but present nothing. or grouping a group of people who has no clue what they are doing and keep shooting at what is obvious in Chinese martial art DNA or pulling rank or pulling dirty tricks.... however never ever ever solving a thing.

See, I am open to anyone's theory. but shows the details, the DNA in specific. in this case, I have shown very specifically to details on the White Crane and Emei connection. What do you have? please share with us. I am sure Brian will certainly love your sharing.

3, Since you are so sure about your claim and substance. I post an issue to you and also everybody. that is the very very very important issue of what is and How to do WCK Shock Jing or chuck keng (what ever different lineage called it) and the process to implement it?

if you or anyone in any lineage including the Cho Gar could present it here with clarity and repeatable process , the body conditioning , and with sound solid physic behind, and your kuen kuit of your lineage to back you up.

I give you the salute and will defending your view,

if you cant clearly present it here,

then perhaps you dont even know what are you talking about.

Now, take this chance to convert me. I am open. I think Brian might be open for this to. Please share.

Best Regards
Hendrik

duende

08-02-2007, 10:23 AM

Hendrick,

Nice back track... However I'll make this short as we've been down this road many times before.

1. Your math is has been taylored to conveniently suit your views... not surprizing.

But not everyone's buying it...

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=630

As for why would anyone want to study an art handed down from Jee Shim?? How about sound principles and concepts. Simplicity and consistancy of logic flow.

These are far from blind truths... In fact would you care to share with us what happend when you touched hands with a Chi Sim master?? ;)

But go ahead a keep posting about your theories and evidences... I leave your threads alone in case you hadn't noticed, however this is not your thread.

2. Nice talk, but walk the walk.

We all might "look" similar when we're lying in bed sleeping (although some of us do sleep better than others :) ), but once were awake facing the day.... that's when our differences really come to life. Hence the necessity to see how the logic flow translates from theory into actual application.

What is real...? what is not real...??? When it rains you will know it, there will be no mistaking.

You talk about "DNA"... I give you solid examples of why your "DNA evidence" is flawed... why your notions of Jing and body mechanics do not translate into the applied fighting techniques shown in the afore mentioned video examples. Even more... I give you Shaolin Tin Yan Dei references to explain why.

No where did I pull rank or commit dirty tricks. As for pointing out things that are obvious about CMA's..... sorry Hendrick that is your crown and you alone are truly the undisputed king of grouping unrelated things together.

3. As for what is very very very important about WCK... keep in mind that we come from very ver very different versions of WCK..

You might be convinced that your understanding of Jing from your personal WCK experience supports your theories WC and White Crane and Emei.

Like I said before... that is fine. Obviously not all WC is the same... The truth may be that we actually do have all together different histories or possible with only brief over-lapping.

Nick was right in stating that I should not presume to speak for everyone. Although that was never my intention, his point is something we should all keep in mind.

Proving my knowledge of Jing to you has nothing to do with this thread. I'd much rather focus on training then take the time trying to convince you of anything to be honest... however this thread is on a topic where we share different view points. I have made my arguments.. don't fault me for failing to support yours.

Seriously though... everyone check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYlNNy929Y&mode=related&search=

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 02:31 PM

duende

08-02-2007, 03:10 PM

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 03:34 PM

Poor Hendrick,

If words do not impress you, then why do you chase your tail so much... spending time and time again writing and rewriting such empty words on this forum and so many others?

The truth is, YOU simply can not accept other's having a different viewpoint then your own.

Let's bring everyone up to date. In brief.. so far Hendrick can not accept Chi Sim. Hencdrick can't accept Shaolin Chan philosophy present in WC. Nor can Hendrick accept an actual Shaolin Monk holding a different philosphy on Chan than his own. Hendrick can not even accept his own Sihing having a different opinion on WCK.

This is just for starters.

Let's be real Hendrick, the sad fact of the matter is that only thing that impresses you, is seeing your own words on the cpu screen.

just for fun.

Chi sim? show me the real evidence link to his art.

Chan is a philosophy? you are trapped within you mind.

Hendrick can not even accept his own Sihing having a different opinion on WCK?
hahaha, do you accept to take poison just because it is others opinion?

I really love what you post.

hahahaha, but still not impress. I expect you could do better to impress me and convert me.

See, i am seriously waiting to be convert as soon as anyone impress me with his knowledge and technology. So, go a head you might be the one who converted me. Try again.

canglong

08-02-2007, 05:10 PM

originally posted by byond1
When you say ""You are only naming one line of succession" thats incorrect. I was actualy naming arts that followed from 4 different Opera actors, with
8 sub variations.Are you even sure what lines of succession this topic dictates? Your answer suggest you might be unclear on the actual lines being discussed. Four different actors doesn't equal 4 different lineages and you yourself stated you wee tracing them back to one source Ng Mui.
originally posted by byond1
Perhaps you should stick to your own history and let me stick to mine. As I have stated my research has nothing to do with your branch or any branch not from the Opera Troupes. As I have stated, where White crane is from, is none of my concern currently - My concern is linking OPERA BOAT WCK to Ng Mui and the WHite Crane system. So now you are saying objectivity is not a concern of yours, don't let the chips fall where they may you'll just steer them towards your lineage.

duende

08-02-2007, 05:11 PM

just for fun.

Chi sim? show me the real evidence link to his art.

So once again your saying Weng Chun is made up... nice.

Chan is a philosophy? you are trapped within you mind.

So Chan is religion?? Both your mind and spirit are trapped.

Hendrick can not even accept his own Sihing having a different opinion on WCK?
hahaha, do you accept to take poison just because it is others opinion?

No I can accept the opinion of others. This ability to accept another's view is not poison.

I really love what you post.

Why the need to lie or be sarcastic? If you think you are flowing you are deeply mistaken... that time past a few posts back when you couldn't defend your position and had to go off topic.

See, i am seriously waiting to be convert as soon as anyone impress me with his knowledge and technology.

Yes.... this is quite obvious. Hendrick knows it all yada yada... we've heard it before.

Anyways, I've already made my points on this thread.

You can have the last word.

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 05:17 PM

So once again your saying Weng Chun is made up... nice.

So Chan is religion?? Both your mind and spirit are trapped.

No I can accept the opinion of others. This ability to accept another's view is not poison.

Why the need to lie or be sarcastic? If you think you are flowing you are deeply mistaken... that time past a few posts back when you went off topic.

Yes.... this is quite obvious. Hendrick knows it all yada yada... we've heard it before.

Anyways, I've already made my points on this thread.

You can have the last word.

hahaha, try again to impress me and convert me. go a head, next time you might success!

canglong

08-02-2007, 05:18 PM

originally posted by hendrik
Now, take this chance to convert me. I am open. I think Brian might be open for this to. Please share.Convert you impress you, why, you haven't even been able to convince Some Cho Ga people that your "evidence" has any merit so why would anyone else believe you. Look at the poll numbers or are you waiting for some swing votes to come in.

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 06:44 PM

Convert you impress you, why, you haven't even been able to convince Some Cho Ga people that your "evidence" has any merit so why would anyone else believe you. Look at the poll numbers or are you waiting for some swing votes to come in.

Hahahaha

off mark post with unclear mind doesnt impress me at all.

Same with everyone from any lineage, I am open to be convert and impress.

Impress me and convert me, I am open.

byond1

08-02-2007, 07:41 PM

""So now you are saying objectivity is not a concern of yours, don't let the chips fall where they may you'll just steer them towards your lineage.""

You mean dont follow in your footsteps?? I agree, I wont.

The research group I am part of:

1) Doesnt run a school , YKS or Not, anywhere let along in the same building as the research group

2) Individual members may or may not run schools of their particular branch - none of which have anthing to do with the AWCKRI.

3) I dont have a school nor students to have join the AWCKRI to "pad" the research into being what I want it to.

4) The AWCKRI is made up of one member from most of the known branchs of WCK related to the Opera Boats- hence the YKS voice of mine, is one voice out of 10-15 differant researchers.

When you say ""Are you even sure what lines of succession this topic dictates? Your answer suggest you might be unclear on the actual lines being discussed." -

The only thing I dont understand Is you, YOUR indoctrinated Language, and why you want to park up my rear end. You have enough people to argue with without drawing me into your problems with Hendrik. Ive asked you this before, I will do so again - Leave me alone.

What I listed is - one line from the Opera Boat- based on ~your~ use of the term " Line of Succession" - . But is something ~I~ consider 4 seperate lines of the same system, as each of the 4 masters , had their own understanding, and context based on many factors. Just like when one discusses Yip Man H.K WCK, one also states what particular sub branch. So your suggesting, I need to share your language, for me to "Understand this topic" - Who are you to question me anyway?

I stated clearly that to keep the PEACE and RESPECT EACH OTHERS LINES - Land WCK minds Land WCKs buisiness - while water WCK minds Water WCKs buisiness. Is there anything im unclear about?

So I will ask you one more time - mind your own buiness or at the very least, DONT mind mine

Hendrik

08-02-2007, 08:34 PM

You have enough people to argue with without drawing me into your problems with Hendrik.

Brian,

They dont have problem with me.

they just dont like what I present,

or similar to lots of others, my gambling with the future historians on whether I will become the first one who propose and found Emei is a parent of SLT or I am some dumb stupid person who dont know what I am talking about.

They just dont like that type of gambling.

Now, I would love to be come friend of them, so I ask them to impress me and convert me.

That way everyone is at peace.

As I post in the other forum, I now see that it is not Truth of WCK that most of us including me are searching (you might be exclude). It is comfort, it is title, it is fame and money or security or respect that is the real agenda.

So, even if you find the Truth of WCK. I would not accept that because I rather to live without truth but having all my fame and security and title instead of living with Truth but I lost everything.

I am just human. hahaha.

I realized that. and ofcorse others in even the same family will disagree and even pull one down with any truth found, hey who dont want to be the Number top guy? so gang up and pull the guy who know something is a greate thing and everyone's best interest. hahahaha.

So, I let go and let god. I would love to become friends with everyone now on because the bottom line is Truth means I have everything to lose. and ok and agree with what every one said is an excellent way to have power, title, money, reputation....hahaha.

I realized today I am just human like everyone else. So what truth? who cares? title, money, reutation, security.... means much more then Truth or the true WCK.

hahaha, I must be speaking drunk night.

Best Regards
Hendrik

canglong

08-02-2007, 09:12 PM

originally posted by byond1
But is something ~I~ consider 4 seperate lines of the same system, as each of the 4 masters , had their own understanding, and context based on many factors.EXACTLY!
Doesn't it sound reasonable that this is exactly what Yik Kam may have passed down his own understanding based on factors of wing chun emei possibly white crane factors that he and he alone mastered? It's a simple question.

Hendrik

08-03-2007, 12:07 PM

EXACTLY!
Doesn't it sound reasonable that this is exactly what Yik Kam may have passed down his own understanding based on factors of wing chun emei possibly white crane factors that he and he alone mastered? It's a simple question.

Great point.

To find out what is the common factor of all masters or the art of slt itself

simply Check this:

0, the core of WCK is SLT
1, WCK is a close range art.
2, WCk use YJKYM type of platform.

so, which art in China MA support this type of platform which is capable of Close range?

My vote is Emei 12 Zhuang because its characteristic match well.

JPinAZ

08-03-2007, 01:42 PM

Great point.

To find out what is the common factor of all masters or the art of slt itself

simply Check this:

0, the core of WCK is SLT
1, WCK is a close range art.
2, WCk use YJKYM type of platform.

so, which art in China MA support this type of platform which is capable of Close range?

My vote is Emei 12 Zhuang because its characteristic match well.

My vote is WC, because, well, it matches all 3. Maybe it's just that simple. I am getting the feeling that some peoples desires to draw conclusions is clouding what might be the simple answer.
Just because one sees similarities in a few EXPRESSIONS of a few different branches of a few arts does not necessarily mean one came from the other. Sure it can mean they might have had similar influences, OR maybe someone mixed the two at one time in their own EXPRESSION, but that might be all there is...

I see Kiu Sau in many southern CMA, does that mean they all came from one, or the other?

This whole discussion is kinda rediculous IMO

JP

byond1

08-03-2007, 07:04 PM

Hi everyone,

Canalong -""Doesn't it sound reasonable that this is exactly what Yik Kam may have passed down his own understanding based on factors of wing chun emei possibly white crane factors that he and he alone mastered? It's a simple question-"'

+++yes, that is a possibility.

Hendrik - '' My vote is Emei 12 Zhuang because its characteristic match well"

++++yes, that is a possibility.

JpinAz - ""This whole discussion is kinda rediculous""

+++ - Yes, that is a good possibility.

Hendrik - I now see that it is not Truth of WCK that most of us including me are searching (you might be exclude). It is comfort, it is title, it is fame and money or security or respect that is the real agenda""

+++ The truth I seek in WCK is hard to explain using words. It is from something inside me. Like the same inspiration, that makes one, want to smell something like a rose or look at a sun set. I am drawn to it, like a moth to a flame.

It has to do with my life long search for "clarity of vision and perception" IE understanding what is real or what is illusion.

This has entailed, looking at many things others pretend dont exist in the world - living amongst the hungry, the killers and thieves, the abandoned.
The lies and conditioning not only society but religion impresses upon our minds is the great lie paralleled by our own personal lie created by our memory, expectations, emotions and ego. TV gradualy has assisted us in becoming not only physicaly weaker, but dullards with little more than drool coming from our mouths, at the time of our demise. Fast food convienance society. God how the stink sickens me.

Art and music are a tool , that is a catalyst, for me, ---a agent to cause bifurcation and change - to help myself and others break from the confines of their limited perceptions/Realities. WCK is the pinnacle tool for me to do so for myself. It is a tool I have used to help...forge...the clarity of my perception, into something...detailed, and specific. Every drop of research adds to this clarity.

Hence my research is 2 fold motivated. What I get out of it personaly and how it helps my own personal "clarity" in percieving/understanding/using the WCK system - which than is applied to every aspect of my life, and second what I give back to the system, by doing my best, to help the community, to the best of my ability and preserving the system, by recording and passing it down to future generations, as personaly I owe a dept of honor to the system, and ancestors.

B

hunt1

08-04-2007, 08:54 AM

Hendrik, first i want to thank you for putting your discussion on youtube.

I have a question for you. As I read your posts the core of your theory is that wing chun and Emei share several kuen kuit. So first how many kuit are shared? Of those shared how many are only found in Emei and Wing Chun and nowhere else.

I ask because the greater the number of unique kuen kuit the greater the probability that your thesis is correct. For example if there are 10 kuit that are shared and all those are found nowhere else than there is little doubt your theory is correct if however all 10 are also found in other arts as well then there is little support for your thesis. Then of course probability goes up as the number of kuit found only in emei and wing chun goes up.

Hendrik

08-04-2007, 10:25 AM

Hendrik, first i want to thank you for putting your discussion on youtube. ---------

You are welcome.

Sharing and so we WCners as a big family could grow together both in depth and broad is always a great thing if we all can enjoy.

I have a question for you.-----------

ok. i will reply with honesty to you and others who has the same question, hopefully my answer could shine some light in your journey.

As I read your posts the core of your theory is that wing chun and Emei share several kuen kuit. -----

Actually, it is not a theory, IMHO. I am not that great to postulate a theory. I am just a messenger.

The fact is the writing passed down from Yik Kam is actually shared Email Kuen kuits.

Even among different lineage within the Cho Family, this is a fact. if you collect everyone's kuen kuit you will see.

The different is some lineage aware of it some dont.
Some lineages within Cho family have more complete writing and some has less.
and Some lineages actually has mixed kuen kuit which has CLF and Emei type of kuen kuit which show a post CLF evolution. So that could be traced.

IMHO, in Cho family, one could see some SLT kuen kuit is CLF based, Some is CLF emei mix, and Some is pure Emei and White Crane. So, IMHO, the one which is the oldest, in my understanding does having ancient White crane term such as Zhao Yang and the Emei 12 zhuang stanza which is exclusive.

Now, some, even those in the Cho family lineages could argue that the existance of Emei 12 Zhuang kuen kuit is just a general use of Chinese languages.

That I totally disagree, the reason is

1, it is fact, CLF stanza is also within the Cho family Kuen kuit in some case. So it is not an accident. Why it is CLF and not Taiji. Why it is Emei not Shao Lin Yi Jing Jing.

2, again, one always, at least me believe writting is just 50% of the answer, how and what is the result when these concept applied in the SLT practice that is another 50%. so does it making any sense to be there? Kuen kuit is not a fiction, it better have a purpose there and not upto anyone's His-story.

Since live is about evolution. all these kuen kuit exist are a fact it is only if we aware of it.

So first how many kuit are shared? Of those shared how many are only found in Emei and Wing Chun and nowhere else. ------------

if I may suggest, the question might be more focus as what area/key concept are these kuen kuit shared instead of how many because some stanza repeat and or slightly modified in different part of the description of the SLT so number could be misleading.

So, we know today, the Emei 12 Zhuang kuen kuit actually provide some core ideas description of the "Engine" of the SLT created by Miu Shun and passed Down to Yik Kam and then to Cho family and then my late Sifu.

These Core ideas are instruction or description of how to perform the SLT. For example: the within the first 5 stanza, 3 of them is Emei 12 Zhuang stanza related a i recalled.

As for found in WCK and Emei and nowhere else or exclusive, IMHO, this question needs to be expand into action. As I menition in my clip, " I careless if the stanza is from emei, shao lin.....etc. the bottom line is if these type of characteristics or cultivation process make sense for SLT and WCK?"

See, I am not here to sell Emei or Yik Kam...etc. what I am interested is how all of us WCners make our SLT training more effective so that we dont waste our life doing SLT one way and expecting it to result in other ways which is impossible to attain.

Also, you see, SLT is not using San Chin platform even it contain the white crane ancient termninology. SLT is used the Equal Shoulder stance type of platform. how ever this Equal shoulder stance type of platform is not Shao Lin Wide horse stance type of platform...

So, IMHO, with the emei writing and the instruction of the writing support the WCK characteristics such as close body, snake like, .... power generation. I would say IMHO, what Yik Kam has passed down is indeed exclusive. Sure I can be wrong and I am open to change as soon as there are better match.
however so far that is what I know it is exclusive.

I ask because the greater the number of unique kuen kuit the greater the probability that your thesis is correct. ----------

That is great. please ask.

I even propose sometimes ago that Rene and Marty could evoke the WCK friendship seminal on this topic. I will share and lead whoever come to the seminal to experience what do I mean and then leave the judgement to everyone. provided the goal is for humanistic reason and not ego feeding to prove who is better figter or who could kick who's a$$ type of gathering.

For again, my point is not about selling Emei, it is about we investigate does these stuffs from the ancient time make sense? could these stuffs implemented and yield to the description of WCK in the past ? IMHO, it is time to re look at WCK and make a decision, is this what we want ? and where are we heading towards?

An example I gave in other forum is that. WCK is recognized in the red boat era as a close body art. if we TRAIN AND ALWAYS stand our YJKYM with our Huang Tiao pressure point area compress inward to the body and the body weight to the heel. that it is impossible that WCK is a close body art. (dont wait for the BJJ guy to take you down, you know, you cant sustain with those type of training. it is just law of physics and biomechanics)

So, I encourage every one to make a check today or even now. Stand in the YJKYM, feeling the two Huan Tiao pressure point area on the side of the butt, see if it is push into the body, and then check the body weight if it sink to the heel. if both condition are there one know right a way, this type of training or the habit develop via this will not be able to sustain frontal impact or frontal press in momentum with ease but the structure will collapse when facing incoming momentum ....

so, ask the question. how could this type of training/practice fit into a Close body art? it doesnt. it just cant deliver.

again, these stuffs is realted to the equal shoulder stance as I shown in the Clip, and the question is doesnt these type of Emei technology make sense for SLT or WCK? if it is not then we just discard it. If it does then we know it fits.

and

some one might like to try other type of kuen kuit such a the bagua....ect. and see is it fit? I am open for all of these. In fact I myself also study different arts. But, SLT from Yik Kam is SLT from Yik Kam, I like to keep it that way to cut down any distortion. That is the reason I always go by "kuen Kuit" when it comes to Yik Kam SLT. This might ****ed of alots of people even in the same family because I dont give face and by the describtion from the Kuen kuit we knows who has the training holistic and who modified it or even who doesnt have a complete view.

and that applied even to my lineage, one time, and this is in written, I wrote my sifu late GM CHC that there are Kuit missing in the section 4. and he wrote back with one more stanza which is not in kuen kuit he first shared with me. I later know it is a test to see if I do really investigate what is going on. and via this incidents, I have a way to check which version or who is the source of the kuen kuit because some kuit was given to me not from the writing but after I ask. These discussion letters are preserve, so it could be released some day for others to have a feeling of how I learn from my sifu.

The reason I mention these above is to share, yes in the Cho family there are advance investigation beyond my understanding existed in the past generation. Those were Pro. those stuffs are not "old Chinese secret" but a very scientific practice where the family only share within thier inner loop.

I am just seing a small tip of the icebeg and couldnt imagine what is going on in the time of Yik Kam or the red boat era. if I could just present a small piece of what I know to others, I am happy. and again, please dont take what I said as the Truth examine and decide for yourself.

So, I would encourage everyone to share thier finding. the key is not Emei but do we WCK knows and have what it needs to develop the art. and my view is just as yours. I am not exclusive. I always can learn more from you all. serious.

Just some honest words

Best Regards
Hendrik

byond1

08-04-2007, 05:06 PM

Hi,

Not to "butt in" to Hunt and Hendriks discussion. But ,

Hunter, my understanding, from what Hendrik has shared in the past, is the Kuen Kuit that Cho Hong Choi preserved, had ruffly 40-50% direct quotation to the Emie Kuen Kuit.

Later when Hendrik was shared White Crane Kuen Kuit by Lee Kong, he found the crane Kuet was the other 40-50% that wasnt related to the Emie Kuit.

The fact is though, ~if~ the Kuen Kuit that Cho Hong Choi passed down are not found in other branchs, at all, or rather if the Emie part of his Kuit do not match up, than it might point to something lineage specific.

The fact is even modern WCK Kuen Kuit, and especialy older Kuen Kuit like from Kulo, Lo Kwai or YKS have alot of overlap with White crane Kuen Kuit, but dont have the overlap in Emie Kuen Kuit or have only very very basic Chinese cultural ideas on Noi gung. Thats completly differant to the very specific process, outlined in the Emie Kuit.

B

Vajramusti

08-04-2007, 05:55 PM

Different Ip Man lines have more or less aphorisms than other Ip Man lines.

Hendrik

08-04-2007, 08:14 PM

The fact is though, ~if~ the Kuen Kuit that Cho Hong Choi passed down are not found in other branchs, at all, or rather if the Emie part of his Kuit do not match up, than it might point to something lineage spefic.

B

This is not an issue at all. and second guessing is no needed.

The FACTS as solid as Gold are:

I have a set of SLT kuit given by Sifu Ku Chai-Wah to me with his own hand writting.

Eventhought the first Two stanza of this set of kuen kuit is definately CLF related, there within this set of kuen kuit exist a few emei kuit as in the Kuit which I inherit from my sifu.

So, Definitely, the Emei kuit is across the Cho family, only some have remeber more and some has less.

Further more, This set of Kuit is not as detail as the one I inherit describing / explaining/ instructing echo-ing the moevement of the 4 section SLT passed down by Yik Kam.

Thus,

It is true that there is Localization Evolution within the lineage however the Emei kuit within the SLT is IMHHHHO Definate.

peace

Hendrik

08-04-2007, 08:22 PM

The fact is even modern WCK Kuen Kuit, and especialy older Kuen Kuit like from Kulo, Lo Kwai or YKS have alot of overlap with White crane Kuen Kuit, but dont have the overlap in Emie Kuen Kuit or have only very very basic Chinese cultural ideas on Noi gung. Thats completly differant to the very specific process, outlined in the Emie Kuit.

B

IMHO

This is also solve-able.

Since the legend involve West of Canton, Snake, faminine...

Gather all CMA in West of Canton China with Snake, finger, close body, "faminine 'characteristics ( as how the characteristic of WCK was described in red boat era) and as old or older then the White Crane of Fujian, applied the concept and platform to SLT and see for yourself which one makes the most sense.

or those who belive in Shao Lin applied the Damo Yi JIng Jing or the Arhat 18 hands platform into SLT see if that make sense? Try it to see if the Yi Jing Jing platform support close body platform?

And

if you could go even further using the Dyamic structure simulation and analysis of modern technology to analyze and emulate what is the result fusing White Crane of Fujian with Emei 12 Zhuang. and see for yourself what it is very likely?

Who like to do that? I would love to see the result. I would love to see if anyone could get down to very very detail of comparison instead of just surface generization of he says she says but get down into where the money is --- lets the action exprience and data of the result speak for itself.

In additional,

One very very very very very very very very important issue damaging WCK's transfering of information is IMHHHO the lack of classical chinese literacy upto today since the collapse of the uprising and the burning of the Fine Jade association where WCK lost lots of its practitioners.

See, IMHO, the actors in the Fine Jade are literate people due to they need to perform and read scrip. they knows classical chinese with depth and broad. however, mayority of the people training in CMA are not as literate. Thus, only those who is literate will preserve the kuit.

The issue is very similar to what happen in the movie of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. if my memory is right: as in the movie, The Fox cant read the scrip of Kuen kuit that limited her attaiment of her art.

as for the girl has the kuit progress fast after she got the basic training due to she could comprehend the STATES which needs to attain ...

it is a movie but it is also reality. Yes, there exist training manual which will certainly if one dont have it will almost impossible to get to the state. AS I heard from the experience people,on Activate the Zhen Qi if one dont have the teaching from a certain sifu who really knows and the writing which really spell out the detail. One would never ever dream to activate that not to mention cultivate it.

So, There is a big problem in Classical Chinese literatecy. It is a problem at late 1800 it is even a bigger problem today for the researchers because not many today know Classical Chinese but common modern chinese and then guessing and intepretating with thier own idea which often get one totally off the mark.

A few examples I have experienced are :

people sometimes argue about this set of kuen kuit is more authentic then the other set due to they want to debunk the Emei...etc.

however what they dont even aware of thier Kuit started with CLF DNA. That just tell it very clearly that these people have no Classical Chinese understanding and has very narrow knowledge.

in another case,
One person trying to threatern me want to debunk my kuen kuit or the first five stanza of the 4 section SLT kuen kuit and my sifu with his kuen kuit. Well, what i found out is he doesnt even have a complete of kuit to describe his set , and not knowing without the first five stanza, the rest of his own kuen kuit cannot be follow because the first five is the prerequisite. similar to in math, without knowing adding how the heck one is going to do integration?

Why I am so sure? because I know his kuit and I know his kuet also has the term on Qi and Mai.

so, the bottom line is if one doesnt has the first five, how the heck is one going to follow instruction on implement/handle the Qi and Mai as describe in his kuen kuit? Just cant impossible. The sad part is this person doesnt realize that.

Not to mention this incident also indicate a person's understanding on the set and the matter. in this case, he is not in the level of be able to reason yet. so he didnt see what is infront of his eyes but act blindly. IMHO.

Thus, it is very sad for this type of Expert exist.

People against just for shake of against. without understand what is going on and what really happen in the past generation but pulling some self claim title....etc. IMHHO. this type of act is only going to damage the art instead of helping it. eventhought I could see the person seems to think he is Rigtheous to the family and doing righteous things.

Not knowing it is great damage if he succeed on what he is doing.

This is exactly Similar to the Chinese Culture Revolution. up root everything the ancient chinese have and then finding one got a hang over because one has no root at all.

These are all real issues if one intent to do research --- Ancient Classical Chinese literacy.

So, IMHO, becarefull dont fall into the Chinese Culture Revolution Trap because until one knows (not logical understand but KNOW) the subject even If we have good and righteous intention, we could do more damage then good for the future generation by speculating with our own logical which could be very Illogical according to the nature.

and finally, I love to be converted and impress with facts and insight such as I always impress by the following permomer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ8HWI62m-o&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DWAdJKUlxo&mode=related&search=

impress me with your art as the chinese said every punch is make my heart respsect you.

So, anyone, young or old, senior or junior, impress me and convert me with your details and insight you have mastered. I am open to learn from anyone. indeed I just bai si to a Qigung master who is doing research on cancer cell a few weeks ago. he could influence cancer cell consistancely with his qi, he could perform a face lift without plastic operation for some lady in japan and put on the cover of the japanese magazine., he could enter into dimention beyond the comon 3 D. I cant so, I learn from him. I am impress with his kung fu. So I bow to him to learn from him. that simple.

Pulling rank and pulling self-claim title and making his-tory just doesnt turn me on.
and also it will never hold water in the eyes of TaiJI, Emei, Yee Chuan.... high hands. why make ancestors ashame. IMHO.

So, again why am I proposing Emei? because it is very likely. and why I think it is excellent if it is end up as Emei? because we need a cultivation platform for a balance living instead of just kill kill bang bang or kick a$$... we need a system like Emei to lead us into healing art, technology, and value. so that we nolonger know how to destroy but knowing also how to develop and live with balance. lets passed down a balance art to the future generation instead of giving them weapon and not teach them how to live a balance life.

I understand Emei connection is indeed a very difficult subject because accepting it might means one admiting one has lost the part of the art or one's sifu or sijo doesnt have the transmission. however, looking further, Emei might be the clue that we could move forward instead of stagnated. White CRane and Emei might be the compass we could reset our direction to know where we were and where we are going.

And, IMHO, it doesnt matter if it is not Emei, it could be Shao Lin, that is fine, and I am willing to accept that. as soon as it could provide us a direction and tell us who we were in the past.

BTW, the writing of GM CHC does started WCK from Shao Lin, Arhat 18 hands, Ng Mui's sifu, Ng Mui, Ng Mui created her own White Crane ...and then Miu Shun there is where the localization evolution started.... it is an evolution process....

Some days when I am more free I might translate the whole writing to share.

Just some thoughts, observe and see for yourself, I leave these discussion to you all for I have said enough and hope that you all carry on. It is OUR matter not mine. so I know everyone could contribute. Lets impress the next generation with our action.

Best Regards
Hendrik

canglong

08-06-2007, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by duende
Show me Yik Kam's WCK used effectively as a fighting art. Let's see what it looks like then.
Show me it's wooden dummy, show me it's butterfly swords, show me it's 6 and 1/2 point pole. Or does Yik Kam say that these do not come from Shaolin either???hendrik's answer to this is...
Originally posted by hendrik
There is no evidents present on if Yat Chan exist and also
isnt it Jee Shim got kill by Bak Mei in the burning of Shao Lin temple? so why learn from Jee Shim? might as well go study Bak Mei who survive the Shao Lin burning, if one want to use the story as Real stuffs.
Emei 12 Zhuang ? exist! White Crane from Fujian ? Exist! check them out in the chinese history from different angle for the past 400 years. go a head, dig it in dig it deep. see for yourself dont have to take my words.We have evidence of a real GM of Chi Sim and hendrik he had you on your @ss in three moves which may explain why you sound so resentful.
Originally posted by hendrik
To find out what is the common factor of all masters or the art of slt itselfThe most recognized common denominator of wing chun is slt/ck/bj, wooden dummy, butterfly swords and the 6 1/2 point pole unless you're trying to write your own his-story.

Hendrik

08-06-2007, 08:27 PM

The most recognized common denominator of wing chun is slt/ck/bj, wooden dummy, butterfly swords and the 6 1/2 point pole unless you're trying to write your own his-story.

You see, I am still waiting for you or your group to impress me to convert me. but upto now you dont show a single technology.

WCK is about close body art. Why dont you share with us here how do you do close body practice which could sustain in coming force and also show us where this platform is from? and why is it capable of sustain in coming force. I hope you dont show us here a TKD stance and expect we here to buy your his-story.

So, impress me convert me show me on what is a close body art call WCK which can sustain incoming force with thier SLT , and where is the platform of this art is originate from with evidence. you like shao lin, fine, show us how is YJJ or Arhat 18 hands fit or not fit into SLT. Show us here with details and the way how it was train as I show the equal shoulder stance.

if you couldnt even know what is going on with the close body platform forget about all those names such as SLT....etc for this thread is not about dropping name. I think others who do the WCK research could drop even more name if they intend to. But they dont because those are a wasting of time.

Impress me and convert me. I am open and why reserve, go all the way full technology, I am listerning. but you never even give yourself a chance to present your technology to convert me and impress me.

So, convert me, impress me. convert me. I am open for it and waiting.

byond1

08-06-2007, 09:36 PM

kung fu fighter

08-07-2007, 12:39 PM

WCK is a system of cultivation for a particular kind of mechanical force that is applied within a very specific context. The context is defined by the WCK Geometry and system of referance points, as well as the core criterion of the Principles. Brian

Hey brian,

what exactly is that particular kind of mechanical force and besides the centerline and triangle theory what are the wing chun geometry and system of referance points?

t_niehoff

08-08-2007, 06:31 AM

Hi Guys,

I have a suggestion. Lets start a new thread entitled " My idea of WCK is..."

The rules and guidelines of the thread will be as follows.

1) Anyone can share their understanding of their branch of WCK. You can be as detailed and long winded as possible.

My view is that there is really no such thing as "branches" of WCK, just as there are no "branches" of boxing. Different people may teach it slightly differently (use different chemistry texts, for example, to teach chemistry) but the subject matter is the same (chemistry).

Understanding comes from skill, fighting skill. Fighting skill comes from quality fighting.

2) The only thing you cant do, is rebuttle or say anything about anyone elses ideas, opinion or lineage. NO cross talk. Make this very dry, with no emotion, simply outlining Data.

So imagine you are standing up in front of a new class of students. You will want to define,

A) Where WCK came from, and why you believe this, and than ,you will want to

Looking at evidence that can be independently verified, we know WCK first appeard in Foshan in So. China in the mid to late 1800s. The first known (proved) practitioner was Leung Jan. Legend traces it to the Red Boats and dispersal of WCK suggests that it may have been on the Red Boats for a short period of time (if a longer period of time, there would have been more dispersal).

Origin stories and legends aside (which are allegories and useful as allegories), WCK probably didn't have a creator or founder, but evolved on its own from pratitioners using techniques, strategies, etc. that werre common to many forms of southern chinese fist -- much like boxing and wrestling evolved in the West. At some point, these were organized into linked sets, a basic kuit emerged, etc. and the evidence suggests this was done either in the generation of or by the generation preceding Leung Jan (perhaps by Wong Wah Bo if he really existed).

B) Define WCK based on your experiance and understanding of your lineage.

WCK is a method of fighting that is characterized by short-range, close quarter, sustained contact which follows a general fighting strategy and uses tools (tactics, skills) specific for implementing that strategy. In a nutshell, it is a form of dirty clinch boxing.

Hendrik

08-10-2007, 09:37 AM

WCK is a method of fighting that is characterized by short-range, close quarter, sustained contact which follows a general fighting strategy and uses tools (tactics, skills) specific for implementing that strategy. In a nutshell, it is a form of dirty clinch boxing.

OK,

Since you mention Short-range, close quarter, sustained contact....

Now, care to share

1, what type of Energy Cultivation did you do while you are doing your SLT/SNT? or even more fundamental what type of Energy Cultivation platform are you based on? IE: YJKYM instead of Sanchi.....

and

2, how is your Energy platform support your Applications?

See, Jing or power is based on the Energy type. and Applications are based on Jing type.

Those are reality everyone needs to face beyond name dropping, tittle droping, position droping, legendary, His-story...figthing....applications.... it doesnt matter if it is Jhee Sim or Ng mui or Lee AYA Coca. it Doesnt matter if it is Emei 12 Zhuang or Ming's emperor's private art.....

Get direct into the content and examine them---- What is the Energy Cultivation Platform? is it electrical or GAS? see for yourself what your practise it about?

Very Simple, and it is obvious.

IMHO, why is it not Song San Shao Lin but Emei? because for me from the Energy Cultivation platform, the Jing , and the Applications .. All convergest if one does SLT/SNT the Emei 12 zhuang Energy cultivation way.

So, NOPE, it is beyond shape. Shape comparison is not going to reveal what is 3 layers under it.

again, it is Energy Cultivation platform, Jing, applications, and then SHAPE. That is a reality.

sure, today I open up another can of worm and get deeper into the issue. if we intend to find the root, keep digging deeper and deeper and things become obvious.

Certainly, SLT cant be using CLF energy cultivation platform or Hung Gar platform or hard Shao Lin or even White Crane of Fujian, it just doesnt make sense

when

the SLT training is a preparation for WCK applications.----- see, the multiple-short power issuing within the same move of WCK needs the Snake slide Pupa move type of energy cultivation to activate.

You dont have to believe me, but check it out for all the Southern CMA as the criterion I have post in other post above. See for yourself, how is it possible to have a mulitple-short power issuing within the same move as in the chi sau.....etc that is not Crane anymore but Crane with SNAKE energy hinding in it.

and where could one find this type of SNAKE energy? examine the Siu Tze Zhuang of Emei 12 zhuang. yes, that small "break dance" make it different from White Crane energy type applications......

Thus, the legend of Miu Shun create SLT with his own art and Ng Mui's white crane is real, even we dont know who exactly is Miu Shun or Ng Mui. The technology within EVERY REDBOAT ACTORS' SLT is the undeniable evidents. it is only a matter of time before one accept this facts.

and ofcorse, some might not accept it and dont need to because their art has evolve in a different direction. Such as there is a so called HARD WCK youtube around. and it is perfectly fine.

Just some thoughts

t_niehoff

08-10-2007, 10:39 AM

OK,

Since you mention Short-range, close quarter, sustained contact....

Now, care to share

1, what type of Energy Cultivation did you do while you are doing your SLT/SNT? or even more fundamental what type of Energy Cultivation platform are you based on? IE: YJKYM instead of Sanchi.....

I don't do the SNT as training - since it is not training. Besides, you can't learn the "energy" or the "application" - and the two of course go together - from a form or linked set. Fighting (results) feeds and informs the sets, not the other way round. In other words, you can't learn the "energy" or "jing" to tan sao except by actually doing a tan sao in fighting, and finding the "energy" or "jing" *necessary* to do it.

and

2, how is your Energy platform support your Applications?

You are asking the wrong sort of questions. This is like asking 'what "energy platform" you use to catch/throw a ball?' You - your body- can only find those things by doing them. You can't learn them from a form. There is no "energy platform" -- I use the mechanics that permit me to accomplish my task. How do I know my mecdhanics are good? By results.

See, Jing or power is based on the Energy type. and Applications are based on Jing type.

There are tasks, and optimal ways of using our body (mechanics, for example) to accomplish those tasks. So you start with the task (what you are trying to do in fighting) and from there try to find the "best" way to accomplish it. Thinking in terms of "jing" or "energy type" isn't productive and only confuses the issue.

When you want to learn how to throw a ball, you don't start with some theory of what sort of "energy type" or jing you should use. Start with the task and try to accomplish that task, in this case throwing the ball. Through repeated attempts, using your results as your guide, you will find the proper "jing" or skilled use of force. But this is something you don't even need to really dwell on -- it will naturally come from the doing.

Those are reality everyone needs to face beyond name dropping, tittle droping, position droping, legendary, His-story...figthing....applications.... it doesnt matter if it is Jhee Sim or Ng mui or Lee AYA Coca. it Doesnt matter if it is Emei 12 Zhuang or Ming's emperor's private art.....

Get direct into the content and examine them---- What is the Energy Cultivation Platform? is it electrical or GAS? see for yourself what your practise it about?

Very Simple, and it is obvious.

No, you've just replaced one sort of nonsense with another. Go directly to results- in fighitng - and examine those. Only our results, the ability to successfully use the WCK tools in fighitng, matters.

IMHO, why is it not Song San Shao Lin but Emei? because for me from the Energy Cultivation platform, the Jing , and the Applications .. All convergest if one does SLT/SNT the Emei 12 zhuang Energy cultivation way.

So, NOPE, it is beyond shape.

again, it is Energy Cultivation platform, Jing, applications, and then SHAPE. That is a reality.

Your theory is flawed. The task will determine the mechanics, which will in turn determine the "jing". If different people try to pin (the task) someone in fightng, they will pretty much end up doing the same sort of things, using the same mechanics, the same "shapes" and the same "jings". And this is why pins look the same regardless of where they came from, etc. The nature of the task limits you.

The same with throws. If you want to throw someone in fighting - let's say with a hip throw - it will end up looking, feeling, using the same mechanics, the same "jing" as everyone else.

There aren't "internal pins" and "internal throws" -- there is just mechanics appropriate to the task, and those mechancis will end up being very, very similar because they have to.

In the same way, if people fight from the outside, in free-movment "range", it will end up looking like kickboxing and the mechanics will look like boxing, muay thai, etc. It's the task -- fighting on the outside -- that determines the mechanics, the shapes, the "jing", etc.

As WCK is on the inside, attached fighting (controlling while hitting), it is a different task than outside fighting and so will have different mechanics, shapes, jings, etc. Other methods that do the same task, will have the same sort of actions (techniques), and so they same jings, etc. This way of fighting was common in Southern China so it is not surprising that they all end up doing the same sort of things, using the same shapes, having similar tactics, etc.

If Shaolin - whatever that is - isn't a close-rrange, attached fighting method, it won't have much in common with WCK. If it is, then it will have things in common. That commonality, however, doesn't mean one art came from the other -- two very similar taks will naturally have similar techniques, "jings", etc. The only way to show an art's "history" is through lineage -- and that by independently verifiable evidence. The same is true for Ermei.

Hendrik

08-10-2007, 10:55 AM

I don't do the SNT as training - since it is not training. Besides, you can't learn the "energy" or the "application" - and the two of course go together - from a form or linked set. Fighting (results) feeds and informs the sets, not the other way round. In other words, you can't learn the "energy" or "jing" to tan sao except by actually doing a tan sao in fighting, and finding the "energy" or "jing" *necessary* to do it.

You are asking the wrong sort of questions. This is like asking 'what "energy platform" you use to catch/throw a ball?' You - your body- can only find those things by doing them. You can't learn them from a form. There is no "energy platform" -- I use the mechanics that permit me to accomplish my task. How do I know my mecdhanics are good? By results.

There are tasks, and optimal ways of using our body (mechanics, for example) to accomplish those tasks. So you start with the task (what you are trying to do in fighting) and from there try to find the "best" way to accomplish it. Thinking in terms of "jing" or "energy type" isn't productive and only confuses the issue.

When you want to learn how to throw a ball, you don't start with some theory of what sort of "energy type" or jing you should use. Start with the task and try to accomplish that task, in this case throwing the ball. Through repeated attempts, using your results as your guide, you will find the proper "jing" or skilled use of force. But this is something you don't even need to really dwell on -- it will naturally come from the doing.

No, you've just replaced one sort of nonsense with another. Go directly to results- in fighitng - and examine those. Only our results, the ability to successfully use the WCK tools in fighitng, matters.

Your theory is flawed. The task will determine the mechanics, which will in turn determine the "jing". If different people try to pin (the task) someone in fightng, they will pretty much end up doing the same sort of things, using the same mechanics, the same "shapes" and the same "jings". And this is why pins look the same regardless of where they came from, etc. The nature of the task limits you.

The same with throws. If you want to throw someone in fighting - let's say with a hip throw - it will end up looking, feeling, using the same mechanics, the same "jing" as everyone else.

There aren't "internal pins" and "internal throws" -- there is just mechanics appropriate to the task, and those mechancis will end up being very, very similar because they have to.

In the same way, if people fight from the outside, in free-movment "range", it will end up looking like kickboxing and the mechanics will look like boxing, muay thai, etc. It's the task -- fighting on the outside -- that determines the mechanics, the shapes, the "jing", etc.

As WCK is on the inside, attached fighting (controlling while hitting), it is a different task than outside fighting and so will have different mechanics, shapes, jings, etc. Other methods that do the same task, will have the same sort of actions (techniques), and so they same jings, etc. This way of fighting was common in Southern China so it is not surprising that they all end up doing the same sort of things, using the same shapes, having similar tactics, etc.

If Shaolin - whatever that is - isn't a close-rrange, attached fighting method, it won't have much in common with WCK. If it is, then it will have things in common. That commonality, however, doesn't mean one art came from the other -- two very similar taks will naturally have similar techniques, "jings", etc. The only way to show an art's "history" is through lineage -- and that by independently verifiable evidence. The same is true for Ermei.

I certainly ACCEPT and APPROVE your view.

Same Terence with the Comos according to Terence.

We dont live in the same Comos, hahahaha

t_niehoff

08-10-2007, 11:19 AM

I certainly ACCEPT and APPROVE your view.

Other people's approval or disapproval doesn't really matter to me -- and I don't mean that as an insult or a slight. What matters to me is my results. They guide me: I let application be my sifu.

Same Terence with the Comos according to Terence.

It's not a matter of views - of "according to". Reality is what it is. And reality can be shown. If you are not guided by results, then you are chasing fantasy.

We dont live in the same Comos, hahahaha

Oh, we live in the same Cosmos -- we just view WCK very differently. My concern is actually using WCK as a fighting method.

Hendrik

08-10-2007, 12:39 PM

Other people's approval or disapproval doesn't really matter to me -- and I don't mean that as an insult or a slight. What matters to me is my results. They guide me: I let application be my sifu.

It's not a matter of views - of "according to". Reality is what it is. And reality can be shown. If you are not guided by results, then you are chasing fantasy.

Oh, we live in the same Cosmos -- we just view WCK very differently. My concern is actually using WCK as a fighting method.

You have good reasoning and are perfectly logical based on a world according to your mind set.

k gledhill

08-10-2007, 12:54 PM

an irresistible object meets an immovable force...who has the popcorn :D

byond1

08-10-2007, 03:37 PM

Just to share my Opinion!

To learn "Ging Faat' one doesnt need to fight. One only needs ones body and enough room to stand and the knowledge on how to do it. "Ging" is expresing mechanical force, from the body and mass, through a clearly defined pathway not rocket science. WCK has a unique Ging, that makes it differrant to other ways of producing mechanical force.

A tennis player doesnt need to be "playing:" tennis to practise their mechanics of swinging, they simply need someone to explain it to them and demonstrate it. BUT to actually be considered a "Tennis player", one has to use the mechanics in realtime.

NOW, I know many WCKers who ONLY train Ging Faat. They have never been in a true fight, nor competed in an aggresive sports atmosphere. Hence in my opinion, they are not fighters nor qualified to teach a system of biomechanics that is used to defend your personal space.

But than again someone who has only trained in a sports atmosphere, will be trained for a particular context, and falls victim to believing that is reality of fighting in the streets.

Those that train for fighting in the streets, tend to miss very important parts of the overall training, including cardio, and even at times, training for the streets in a completly unrealistic manner making them fall victim to the same thing that sports fighters experiance - misunderstanding reality and context.

Without actualy using the Ging Faat, in application, against unwilling opponents, one will only have part of the picture and will be, IMO , extremly limited. In actual realtime combat, is where one comes to understands things, that makes you use your WCK in differant ways, than you did prior to that experiance.

I had a shift in thinking after i hit my 5 year mark in WCK, and trained with an unwilling WCK older brother of mine, who wanted to beat me up! His 13 years experiance and realtime fighting experiance put him on another level than what I was at. But It dawned on me that all these things that worked in training, didnt work against this dude who wanted to punch me in my mouth. This set me on a differant path than what is looked at as "traditional" by most.

I know my WCK made huge leaps, when I had several work out partners (pre UFC fad) that were early versions of MMA. JKD, w/Thai boxing, and wrestling types with some Sombo locks and Chin Na. It gave me well rounded experiance against a wide range of arts used at the same time. BUT more importantly we trained without gear (one guy used a mouth piece), and we actually hit each other. We didnt go "allout" in expressing our Ging, but we trained very very hard. Obviously not every one trains like this, but if you truly want to be able to defend yourself, you need to experiance this type of thing at least a few times.

I know my WCK made even larger leaps, each time I fought in the streets to protect myself. Each fight I performed better, and kept a stronger WCK appearance. Any one that says "you cant look like WCK in a real fight, as that WCK look, isnt realistic" is sadly incorrect.

My last 2 fights, I had in Ohio, (one during the riots that occured down on OSU campus during a big collage football game, the other at a local mall and was racialy motivated) - both had me using very obvious use of WCK structure . The earlier of the 2 fights, around the time i moved to Ohio, included a movement from the Biu jee form to recover the line, with a left Au Choi/Hook Punch, while pulling my opponent by his hair into my punch, after my opponent 'flailed' in a cover up attempt at my blitzkrieg, and ended up in a somewhat flanked position. That dazed him, and as he stood up all warbly, i was able to land one solid right veritcle punch to his cheak, and dropped him. I got a nice boxer fracture out of it, from the darn Au Choi, from the top of his head, but performed, exaclty like I trained to. How crisp were my movements?? Hard to say, i wasnt watching myself.. LOL

I feel thats very interesting how some "things" that work in training, dont translate at all in real combat - perhaps these things worked against the older arts, but are inappropriate for modern context.

I would say im half way between a traditionalist and a modernist. Traditionalist , imo, are not really traditional. What they call 'Tradition" is malarchy created by Kung Fu movies, imagination ect But I think the true old school masters, like , in our context Leung Jan, Fok Bo Chuen, Fung Siu Ching ect, were TRUE traditional masters. They used the art everyday. Fok and Fung used the art to bring in criminals to justice. Criminals who would do anything to not be taken in. Criminals who had no moral or ethical standard to be confined by nor rules of engagement. They had to be at the top of the pyramid, or they wouldnt have survived to old age, to teach YKS.

I think we need to recapture the old way of training. The butcher mind set way of training. But I think it needs to be trained and preasure tested within modern context. I think the most up to date training methods should be used.

I think we need to avoid the modernist idea of being a "jack of all trades master of none". Simply collecting techniques and styles is a bit weak, imo. I think we need to avoid mistaking sports as reality. But understand all the very important lessons that can be learned from the MMA context. And AT LEAST train that hard.

One needs to know what ones goal is. The goal must always be kept in mind, and than the training must support one going twords fullfiling ones goal. For example if my goal is to protect myself in the street, and be as well rounded as possible, I have to decide if I personaly am a standup fighter or ground fighter at my core. My bread and butter if you will. So for me Im a standup fighter. To protect myself and be welll rounded for a wide range of attackers, i need to be able to have these components in place:

1) take down defence

2) Active rubber guard

3) Anti submissions/breaks

4) experiance against a boxer

5) experiance against a kicker

6) experiance against someone that puts it all together

and than of cource my offensive methods which in my WCK context includes : Da/Striking, Gerk/kicking, Kum Na/locks/breaks/siezing and holding/submissions and Sot gow /Takedowns/sweeps/throws

Now for me to compete in Sports fighting, I would be lacking in some areas, and over trained in many tools i wouldnt be able to use in the sports context. So one needs to keep ones goal in mind at all times.

But, that isnt something i care to do. I now train to simply protect myself and my fiance in the streets. I than cross train esoteric material for my spiritual cultivation, which i do just prior to my WCK training to help me "Song"/Relax! But keep them distinctly seperate.

OK enough rambling and random thoughts. No hidden messages, or backwards masking techniques have been used in this posting!!

B

t_niehoff

08-11-2007, 12:21 PM

To learn "Ging Faat' one doesnt need to fight. One only needs ones body and enough room to stand and the knowledge on how to do it. "Ging" is expresing mechanical force, from the body and mass, through a clearly defined pathway not rocket science. WCK has a unique Ging, that makes it differrant to other ways of producing mechanical force.

A tennis player doesnt need to be "playing:" tennis to practise their mechanics of swinging, they simply need someone to explain it to them and demonstrate it. BUT to actually be considered a "Tennis player", one has to use the mechanics in realtime.

Learning tennis is a good analogy. A person can be shown how to swing the racket and told to hit the ball, but they can't learn or develop the "ging faat", how to properly hit the ball and get the results they want, except by really hitting the ball loads, using results (and desired results) to continually adjust the way they stroke the ball, etc. The way you are taught to hit the ball in tennis isn't, btw, the way you really do it when actually playing the game. The "model" stroke is just taught to provide a point of departure so taht you can get a "feel" for the mechanics. You learn to really hit the ball by m,oving around the court, really hitting the ball just as you would when you play a game. It's the same way in martial arts.

However, with regard to martial arts, people can develop all kinds of mechanics that work, and produce "results", in unrealistic practice -- practice not under fighting conditions, when your body is not under the stress of fighting. I call these the Monty Python silly walks: you can do all kinds of things when you are not trying to move at full power, full speed, etc. They call that chi sao. ;) But, when you really run, full-out, all those silly walks break down, and everyone pretty much runs the same way -- because we have to. Just as much of the TMA mechanics break down at fighitng intensity.

How do we know whether the "ging faat" we are practicing at unrealistic levels will hold up and produce results at realistic levels? The only way is to use it at realistic levels -- fight.

So before someone wastes years and years "developing" a ging faat, and the mechanics that produces it, it only makes sense to see for themselves that this really works and produces good results in fighting, particularly against decent people. So far, none of the "ging faat" crowd has produced any such evidence.

NOW, I know many WCKers who ONLY train Ging Faat. They have never been in a true fight, nor competed in an aggresive sports atmosphere. Hence in my opinion, they are not fighters nor qualified to teach a system of biomechanics that is used to defend your personal space.

But than again someone who has only trained in a sports atmosphere, will be trained for a particular context, and falls victim to believing that is reality of fighting in the streets.

Those that train for fighting in the streets, tend to miss very important parts of the overall training, including cardio, and even at times, training for the streets in a completly unrealistic manner making them fall victim to the same thing that sports fighters experiance - misunderstanding reality and context.

Without actualy using the Ging Faat, in application, against unwilling opponents, one will only have part of the picture and will be, IMO , extremly limited. In actual realtime combat, is where one comes to understands things, that makes you use your WCK in differant ways, than you did prior to that experiance.

Everything you just said illustrates how poorly WCK, and the TMAs, learn and train -- which goes to the very way they look at WCK. No one could say this of boxing or wrestling or muay thai or any functional art because in those arts, these things aren't segregated, fragmented, but all part of a single whole.

I had a shift in thinking after i hit my 5 year mark in WCK, and trained with an unwilling WCK older brother of mine, who wanted to beat me up! His 13 years experiance and realtime fighting experiance put him on another level than what I was at. But It dawned on me that all these things that worked in training, didnt work against this dude who wanted to punch me in my mouth. This set me on a differant path than what is looked at as "traditional" by most.

I know my WCK made huge leaps, when I had several work out partners (pre UFC fad) that were early versions of MMA. JKD, w/Thai boxing, and wrestling types with some Sombo locks and Chin Na. It gave me well rounded experiance against a wide range of arts used at the same time. BUT more importantly we trained without gear (one guy used a mouth piece), and we actually hit each other. We didnt go "allout" in expressing our Ging, but we trained very very hard. Obviously not every one trains like this, but if you truly want to be able to defend yourself, you need to experiance this type of thing at least a few times.

I know my WCK made even larger leaps, each time I fought in the streets to protect myself. Each fight I performed better, and kept a stronger WCK appearance. Any one that says "you cant look like WCK in a real fight, as that WCK look, isnt realistic" is sadly incorrect.

My last 2 fights, I had in Ohio, (one during the riots that occured down on OSU campus during a big collage football game, the other at a local mall and was racialy motivated) - both had me using very obvious use of WCK structure . The earlier of the 2 fights, around the time i moved to Ohio, included a movement from the Biu jee form to recover the line, with a left Au Choi/Hook Punch, while pulling my opponent by his hair into my punch, after my opponent 'flailed' in a cover up attempt at my blitzkrieg, and ended up in a somewhat flanked position. That dazed him, and as he stood up all warbly, i was able to land one solid right veritcle punch to his cheak, and dropped him. I got a nice boxer fracture out of it, from the darn Au Choi, from the top of his head, but performed, exaclty like I trained to. How crisp were my movements?? Hard to say, i wasnt watching myself.. LOL

It is a really bad practice to draw conclusions based on your performances against poorly skilled people.

I feel thats very interesting how some "things" that work in training, dont translate at all in real combat - perhaps these things worked against the older arts, but are inappropriate for modern context.

I would say im half way between a traditionalist and a modernist. Traditionalist , imo, are not really traditional. What they call 'Tradition" is malarchy created by Kung Fu movies, imagination ect But I think the true old school masters, like , in our context Leung Jan, Fok Bo Chuen, Fung Siu Ching ect, were TRUE traditional masters. They used the art everyday. Fok and Fung used the art to bring in criminals to justice. Criminals who would do anything to not be taken in. Criminals who had no moral or ethical standard to be confined by nor rules of engagement. They had to be at the top of the pyramid, or they wouldnt have survived to old age, to teach YKS.

But how do you know what their real level of skill was? You don't. You never saw them fight, can't say who they fought, or if their opponents were any good. Do you believe they brought criminals to justice with bare-hand fighting?! Or, even alone? You are caught up in the legends, the stories. There is no evidence as to how good they were.

But, since today we know that higher levels of fighting skills only come from sparring/fighting and that a person's skill level is directly related to the amount of quality sparring/fighting that they've done, and because we can see the poor level of skill the TMAs have produced world-wide with their traditional training methods, it is safe to say that most of these guys couldn't have been very good by today's standards.

I think we need to recapture the old way of training. The butcher mind set way of training. But I think it needs to be trained and preasure tested within modern context. I think the most up to date training methods should be used.

You can't have it both ways -- the "old way of training" is the antithesis of modern training methods and understanding. The sad fact is the old ways just didn't produce good results by today's standards. It isn't the case that all TMAists around the world, in every TMA, has just forgotten the "old ways" and that's why they all suck. They are using the "old ways" and "old thinking" and that's precisely the problem -- that way of thinking and training is inherently wrong, false, etc. and doesn't produce good results. It produced masters in the past because everyone was using the same crap to train -- so if everyone uses poor training methods, no one will have an advantage in training. Today, while TMAists use these poor methods and get poor results, others use more modern methods of training and get really good results. The TMAists are at a significant disadvantage in training.

Hendrik

08-11-2007, 08:36 PM

You all are right.

however, have anyone consider what if the art was distorted in the past 80years?

Now, using the Qing training standard for thier Chief army as a standard, which could be found in the chinese lib and history documentation.

1,

have anyone think hard about how is the so called "old ways" going to fight a well train Qing figther/ army chief, when fire arm is rare in 1850? Could what one sees today do its job? if it could not , then there is a high possibility that the so called "old ways" is not the way at all.

2,
With today's mma type of evolution, could this type of art do thier job if it was transport back to 1850 against those Qing army chief when fight is for life and death? How is the performance? check it out.

To face a well train mongolian or manchurian or northern China army from the north is about life and death. how is the above two type of arts do thier job? could they have any chance at all?

byond1

08-11-2007, 09:10 PM

""Learning tennis is a good analogy. A person can be shown how to swing the racket and told to hit the ball, but they can't learn or develop the "ging faat", how to properly hit the ball and get the results they want, except by really hitting the ball loads, using results (and desired results) to continually adjust the way they stroke the ball, etc"" - TN

+++I agree it was a good analogy, but I disagree with you completly in what you posted. A person can be taught and shown how to swing a racket. That ~IS~ the Ging Faat.
Your are simply wrong when you say ging faat is how to properly hit the ~ball~. That is actualy a differant part of the training IE application training. The ging faat developed, wouldnt have to be applied to hitting a tennis ball, in fact one could apply it for application of a sword stroke. How you apply it and to what, determines the applications!

""Everything you just said illustrates how poorly WCK, and the TMAs, learn and train -- which goes to the very way they look at WCK. No one could say this of boxing or wrestling or muay thai or any functional art because in those arts, these things aren't segregated, fragmented, but all part of a single whole.""

+++True to a point, but only goes to show and illustrate that its not "Traditional"methods which are lacking. Its modern understanding of Traditional methods. Another illustration for how poorly modern MA train, is the mistake of thinking Sports= Reality. More BS mindset.

"" Just as much of the TMA mechanics break down at fighitng intensity.""- TN

+++Spoken like someone who hasnt truly trained the proper mechanics long enough for the body to remember them in fighting intensity. And you must lack confidence, as the more confidence one has, which comes from the real time experiance of dealing with Adrenal dump and the distortions that can occur in ones perceptions, one can retain and keep the tighter structures used in training, more so than others who dont train it.

Application is alot differant though to what is typicaly seen in training.

""How do we know whether the "ging faat" we are practicing at unrealistic levels will hold up and produce results at realistic levels? The only way is to use it at realistic levels -- fight""

+++Correct. That is using Ging Faat and applying it. Diffearnt to training the mechanics of Ging Faat. Instead its training the mechanics of application.

""It is a really bad practice to draw conclusions based on your performances against poorly skilled people"" _ TN

+++Spoken just like someone who has never been in an actual fight using WCK as a tool. Spoken like a sports martial artist that has to protect his ego, as he doesnt want to face the reality, that there are many who due to the circumstances of their life and environment they live in, have more, ~Real~ experiance, than someone who is simply a sports martial artist. Try again.

Its also an intersting paroting of WSL, who made the statement out of typical chinese Humblness.

The truth is, the skill level of my opponents doesnt matter - as this isnt traditional challenging MA agaisnt MA. The truth is if my opponent wanted to hurt me, and I stopped them and performed like I trained, than its THE MOsT VALUABLE experiance one can have, for the REALITY of defending ones life. The truth is, skill level is only developed by actually fighting real people in the streets with no rules.

Now of cource if you want to simply be a sports martial artist, and pretend the 30+ rules are condusive to such, be my guest:)

""Do you believe they brought criminals to justice with bare-hand fighting?! Or, even alone? You are caught up in the legends, the stories. There is no evidence as to how good they were.""- TN

+++Bare hand and weapon yes. Were not talking about mystical mountains and unicorns. Were talking from the the earlly 1900s. The foshan government preserves documents substantiating that Fung was a marshal and Fok was a constable. YKS, preserved the same info from both of his teachers. YKS passed this on to Sum and wrote it down which his grandson preserves. So the same proof you exist and are a lawyer exist that they existed and did a particular job!

Anyone that does a job everyday, develops the "Kung Fu' of it. Its common sence. Thats why you are a good lawyer and cant seperate it from your personality. Its become a part of who and what you are. The same would be true for those masters that lived WCK.

""But, since today we know that higher levels of fighting skills only come from sparring/fighting and that a person's skill level is directly related to the amount of quality sparring/fighting that they've done, and because we can see the poor level of skill the TMAs have produced world-wide with their traditional training methods, it is safe to say that most of these guys couldn't have been very good by today's standards."" - TN

+++Higher levels of FIGHTING skill ONLY comes from FIGHTING. Sparring is not fighting, and is only a drill like Chi Sau used to develop certain skills. One will never be able to apply these skills unless one actually uses them. A persons skill level IE being able to protect yourself from bodily harm is directly related to how mnay times one has done it and as well as how hard you trained in preparation for it.

We see a poor skill level of TMA because they are not actually true TRADITIOnAL arts. The few systems that retain the butcher mindset, dont compete and feel it degrades the arts by making them into sports.
Most are products of movie and imagination. So dont confuse modern marketing, to the now extinct traditional training methods. We also see poor skill level in many of the MMA. Only the top guys stand out, as having any skill in their context.

Judging the past masters by our standards is pompous. Life in a ghetto is the closest thing that modern day people could experiance that would be similar to life in feudal times. When ones life is on the line, sports training shines forth as nothing more than a modern repackage of the stale "traditional" movie Kung Fu mindset.

I appreciate NHB and UFC. I get great joy from watching them. Im a huge fan. But we cant confuse sports context as reality. That makes the MMA traditional degrade into little more than more Movie Magic thinking and is exaclty what occured in the 50s---90s.

We most definatly can use butcher mind set (traditional training methods), training as realistic as possible, using modern formats, preparing one as best as possible for the time that true combat becomes unavoidable, where true combat experiance and skill is learned.

B