Kung Fu for the common people or the "elites"

[SPJ]

A lot of Kung Fu/cma practices have roots from common people and for common people.

(even tho some family styles may go into the army, if the practitioners won and were selected in the exam in the old time.--)

--

meaning something "easy" to understand and apply/to do--

will it be pushing people away by adding difficult moves/Nan Du in Wushu comp ?

--

what do you think?

--

:D

[SPJ]

yes. there are differences in individual self defense;

in groups fighting a war in an army;

in groups fighting bandits in a civil defense; etc etc

--

[SPJ]

my question is that

If Wushu comp is to promote some forms of CMA in the general public--

would it not be better to make them "easier" so that most people may learn and practice--

or add aerial moves and make them more and more difficult--

and that common people may only "watch" and sigh--

and not likely to practice/do themself--

--

:confused::D

[SPJ]

Mo Li Hua is a folk song that many people may learn and sing.

However, you may also write the song into an "opera" version.

and that most would enjoy but not many may sing it.

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnH7LiWCevc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtoTrchVHPM&mode=related&search=

folk song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-GN2t_UYss&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcR1XLC8lso&v2

opera.

--

:D

[David Jamieson]

Ruminations in written form....hmmm :p

good instruction can either come free or very expensively.

those who have kungfu are elite by definition of the word.
Being as the larger part of humanity doesn't have kungfu.
Not to mention myself, but I'm irrelevant to the point. :)

[NJM]

my question is that

If Wushu comp is to promote some forms of CMA in the general public--

would it not be better to make them "easier" so that most people may learn and practice--

or add aerial moves and make them more and more difficult--

and that common people may only "watch" and sigh--

and not likely to practice/do themself--

--

:confused::D

If you want common people to learn the art of kung fu, making it easier will not help you. Making it more relevant, making it have a common purpose and potraying it as having such, this will make it more acceptable.

There are no elite kung-fu artists who didn't begin as what you call a "commoner."

[Oso]

the idea that everyone is equal is absurd.


men can't do things women can and women can't do things men can.

each to their own.



in 'kung fu' there are two types of people:

those that have talent and those that don't.

who is the better in the end?

the man who has to spend more time working for what he has will always end up with more virtue than the man who spends less time attaining more.

sadly, this man may not ever be as good as the one with the talent.

in the end the value of a thing is to it's own worth to the holder.

once something is compared to something else, something loses.

so, the wise person allows that there are those better and those worse and see his place within.

[Oso]

There are no elite kung-fu artists who didn't begin as what you call a "commoner."

that's got more horse **** on it than the back forty.

[street_fighter]

how about bajiquan?

[NJM]

Hey hey, I'm saying that everyone starts ignorant, no one is high-born with tiger hook swords in their hands. Sure, some people learn faster than others or have useful instincts, a natural talent for the art. But I have seen that in the end, whoever is better is whoever wins. This is not determined by talent or practice; it is determined by what is determined.

[Sifu Darkfist]

how about bajiquan?

I have got a bit of news, baji in its combat form takes as much practice as any style.
timing which is the key to any combatant and their success is the most important key to Baji combat
timing takes the longest to learn in any style

the 8 body parts that converge on impact are intertwined in focus and need to be combined.
this is the art of the general
the commoner can be trained into this however it is clearly not the easiest of styles despite its appearence.

[street_fighter]

I was actually aiming that more at the history of the style, not its level of difficulty, because if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't taught to "commoners" but rather the emperors bodyguards and a few of the emperors themselves. Couple that with the fact that it is usually tought only to advanced students, a "commoner" form of martial arts is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of baji.

[Iman01]

There are no elite kung-fu artists who didn't begin as what you call a "commoner."

that's got more horse **** on it than the back forty.

Are you saying that every good martial artist was born to be a good martial artist? None of them were born just like anyone else and worked at it to become skilled?

I dissagree. I believe almost everyone has the potential to do anything they want, it is only a matter of what they will sacrafice. For example some students are not willing to give up alcohol and smokes, their athletic ability will suffer, in MA or otherwise.

When I was young I ran track. I noticed that at the beginning of the season I was a lot faster than everyone, after a few months of practices they all were right with me or faster. In the off seasons I ran more than they did, during track they ran more than I. I have noticed similar things in kung fu. Those that want it more, no matter how good they were when the started, will be better than those that don't train as hard.

[Iman01]

A lot of Kung Fu/cma practices have roots from common people and for common people.

(even tho some family styles may go into the army, if the practitioners won and were selected in the exam in the old time.--)

--

meaning something "easy" to understand and apply/to do--

will it be pushing people away by adding difficult moves/Nan Du in Wushu comp ?

--

what do you think?

--

:D

Making kung fu hard will definately prevent lots of people from training. You have to consider why people take a martial art. The vast majority is people that just want a fun way to work out.

I had a nice chat with a TKD teacher in my old town, he mentioned how his TKD classes were easy and that is why he has so many students. He felt that making classes easier allowed him to "help" more people.

I suppose this is in contrast to the other perspective, leave the MA harder and "help" a smaller number of people, but help them more.

[Ben Gash]

I was actually aiming that more at the history of the style, not its level of difficulty, because if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't taught to "commoners" but rather the emperors bodyguards and a few of the emperors themselves. Couple that with the fact that it is usually tought only to advanced students, a "commoner" form of martial arts is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of baji.

Not true on many levels. Baji was the village art of Meng village, Cangzhou, Hebei, about as common as you can get. Transmission was villager to villager for two to three hundred years, and it slowly disseminated around Cangzhou. It was students of Li Shu Wen who found repute as bodyguards, both for their general fighting ability, and most importantly their close body skill, with the likes of Fu Yi, Sun Yat Sen, Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai Shek.
There are Baji schools that just teach Baji, so therefore by definition they must teach it to beginners, however Baji has developed a sort of mystique in northern TCMA circles, so some schools only teach it once students have a good foundation. The internals of Baji are tricky, but truthfully no more so than Chen Taijiquan.

[Fu-Pow]

I think some people are born with a higher level of "kinesthetic intelligence" to use a term from the theory of multiple intelligences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

They are just generally gifted at athletics and other physical endeavors. However, I think that "kinesthetic intelligence" is something that can be improved on in people that don't naturally have it.

FP

[Iman01]

I think some people are born with a higher level of "kinesthetic intelligence" to use a term from the theory of multiple intelligences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

They are just generally gifted at athletics and other physical endeavors. However, I think that "kinesthetic intelligence" is something that can be improved on in people that don't naturally have it.

FP

That is a cool theory.

My theory is that previous life experiences have predisposed each of us to fit into the different learning categories. No baby is born with great coordination. Through practice they learn dexterity. And after working on that for years they are able to complete tasks we all do every day, like tieing our shoes.

A 15 year old that has yet to learn to walk would have a terrible time learning MA. But if that 15 year old had been training since birth they would seem to be gifted. I think we all fit somewhere in between when we first began MA, but being great isn't out of reach for any of us.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Not true on many levels. Baji was the village art of Meng village, Cangzhou, Hebei, about as common as you can get. Transmission was villager to villager for two to three hundred years, and it slowly disseminated around Cangzhou. It was students of Li Shu Wen who found repute as bodyguards, both for their general fighting ability, and most importantly their close body skill, with the likes of Fu Yi, Sun Yat Sen, Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai Shek.
There are Baji schools that just teach Baji, so therefore by definition they must teach it to beginners, however Baji has developed a sort of mystique in northern TCMA circles, so some schools only teach it once students have a good foundation. The internals of Baji are tricky, but truthfully no more so than Chen Taijiquan.

The way Meng got baji is the mysterious part, according to my master and his an unknown stranger that was a general or commander on the run taught it to the first villager due to his already accomplished martial arts ability.
Much of the hardcore styles appeared in recent history in small villages simply because the ming martial artists were in hiding and they disseminated these arts through locals to keep it alive in hopes of sparking a ming restoration over the Qing. There are several aspects of Baji that are mentioned in surviving literature that was not destroyed by the Qing.

Later the Qing made use of these styles (by bribing teachers to teach them arts such as baji bagua etc.) when the gradually faced insurgents and realized the styles of hand to hand were very highly developed. Thus you have Han arts becoming common place in the Shiwei Di Zi and even empereors and sons of emperors. the whole written archive of fleeing generals commanders and combatants was kept only by word of mouth and the records destroyed due to the combing of the countryside and mas executions of the ming loyalists.
so place little faith in the old little village theme so common in Chinese recent history

[Chosen-frozen]

I think that most of the snotty arguments on this thread come from the fact that no one can understand what half of you are saying. Run down to the Library and get a book on grammar.
Complete sentences are your friends.

[SPJ]

1. Will Wushu just fall after the hype of 2008 Beijing Olympics?

both TKD and Judo have very wide/broad countries and people participating before becoming events in olympics.

in contrast, Wushu does not have as many people/countries participating. and yet Wushu forms comp keep changing and adding more and more difficult moves.

--

so what would be your comment in general?

Will wushu just die overnite or not going anywhere any time soon or---


--

2. How a style became popular? ---

May we duplicate the steps taken by other popular style/school?

How do we promote Wushu/CMA in general?

--

3. The folk song vs "opera" version is just an analogy. We may make a song easy to sing so that more people may learn and enjoy. or we may make the song into an opera version and only a few people may sing while others may only listen.

The point is that Wushu formats/events should be made "easier" or more available to more people.

or reserved for just PRC government sponsoring schools and selective few talented students.

--

4. The history part always goes back and forth. An art may come from civilian circles to the military/services and vice versa.

--

[SPJ]

Li Shu Wen was very active in Xiao Zhan, Tian Jing.

It was the Qing's new army training ground. It was also the birthplace of Bei Yang warlords under Yuan Si Kai.

All the cadets listened to Yuan. That was why Yuan held such a heavy weighted political power in late Qing and early republican years.

Yuan was loyal to and a protege of former Bei Yang minister Li Hong Zhang.

Yuan succeeded Li as Bei Yang minister in charge of the army, political, foreign affairs etc etc for northern China.

--

Bao Ding army academy was another birthplace for other army officers at the time.

--

[SPJ]

http://www.cn-wu.com/bbs/read.php?tid=152734

some apps of Ba Ji fist demo by master Su Yu Chang.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

some sparring of baji fist.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-dyADxXdfk

Baji in Tian Jing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have learned this:

Every MA systems has its "freaks" and they are the LAST people that should be used as examples.
Indeed, how well the "average" is able to apply the system is the best "measuring tool" for its effectiveness.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I think that most of the snotty arguments on this thread come from the fact that no one can understand what half of you are saying. Run down to the Library and get a book on grammar.
Complete sentences are your friends.

I spend alot of time working on writing perfect for academia.
I refuse to speak perfect here. When i write here it is usually at night after a glass or two of wine when i am looking to unwind.

I do not want to be understood thoroughly. Some of the most interesting prose is in the abstract, hegel etc.

just avoid my posts you will be happier
:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

I would personally rather watch floor gymnstics than contemporary wushu.

the skill level required is easily as high if not higher and tere is no pretending that there is fighting ability packaged in.

Most of the world doesn't dig wushu outside of chop sokey flicks and frankly, I agree with that being the place where it belongs.

It's not an extremely useful thing, the performers have short careers, most are burnt out before 25 and to take it to the level of san da is not common amopngst wushu elites.

It's another chinese thing that isn't gonna catch on really. For all the reasons that japanese television doesn't fly anywhere but in japan and is regarded as an oddity everywhere else.

wushu=japanese game shows to most of the world. :)

[PangQuan]

Wushu:

I was watching a movie the other day, i think it was transformers, well they had a preview for that Born Identity or what ever. Well one quick seen of some action showed the main character trying to throw some guy, and he busts into a butterfly twist to escape.

THAT is where I see wushu headed mainly. Entertainment. Stage performance. Movies. Integration into other aspects of the entertainment industry.

It still saddens me that I had to leave my last school, which I loved, because modern wushu is forced upon all the kungfu practitioners there. I enjoyed the traditional shaolin quite a bit, but after a few years of suffering through the modern crap I just couldnt take it anymore.

How many more years does the MA community have to suffer through the crap?

Wushu: good for entertainment purposes only, IMO.

[Chosen-frozen]

I spend alot of time working on writing perfect for academia.
I refuse to speak perfect here. When i write here it is usually at night after a glass or two of wine when i am looking to unwind.

I do not want to be understood thoroughly. Some of the most interesting prose is in the abstract, hegel etc.

just avoid my posts you will be happier
:rolleyes:


Darkfist,

I wasn`t singling anyone out, especially not you.My post just happened to be placed after yours when I submitted it. No offense was intended.

It just makes me crazy when some of these people leave 1/2 the words out of thier sentences and expect us to read their minds instead of what they`ve written.