New Wing Chun Forum Poll

[Ultimatewingchun]

Should we discuss the issues raised, or should we endlessly trash talk with self-appointed trolls? You know the type: "Oh, your sifu told you that he fought this one or that one? Prove it to me. Or it doesn't exist. Oh, and btw - neither does chi. That doesn't exist either. Because I didn't see it under my microscope.

Oh, BJJ and Muay Thai are not the ultimate fighting arts - along with the newest amlagam of the two, MMA ??? Really? You say that something else (ie.- wing chun) has answers - especially in a street encounter? Prove it to me. Or else it doesn't exist."


BUT WAIT.

Who the _uck are you? :cool:

And why do you persist in trying to derail every thread?

Better questions: what shoud we do about you?

............................

And for those who decide to vote, please feel free to comment also if you wish.

[t_niehoff]

How does asking for evidence that supports claims derail threads? I'd think that intelligent people would not believe things in the absence of evidence. And so thoughtful, intelligent people would have evidence at their fingertips to support their views.

Anyone can make claims. If you want to believe them despite the lack of evidence and despite common sense, that's fine -- people believe all kinds of nutty things. But belief doesn't make them true.

And neither does appeals to popularity, strawman arguments, or the rest of the fallacious rhetorical devices that you use when you have neither evidence or reason to support your views.

This post is basically whining about what to do with people -- like me -- who question your beliefs, who ask for evidence of claims. The answer is simple: provide evidence and rationale explanation. Because if you can't do that, your view is BS because it is not founded on evidence and reason. You don't like it when that is pointed out that you, too bad. I get it. So do, I think, some others. But I'm sure you have many supporters, like-minded people who believe in chi despite the laws of physics, despite the utter lack of evidence of its existence, etc., people who want to believe their sifu is a great fighter despite the lack of evidence, that he never fights, etc. and so on. Dream on, Victor.

Goya was right in my view: The sleep of reason breeds monsters.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People have questions, you answer.
They raise concerns, you address them.
They want proof, you provide it.

What's so hard?

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's never-ending. That's what's so hard. And on top of that, it's a double standard: one for them - and another one for you. B_itch and moan about quality control standards - and they themselves provide none of their own for you to see. And if they want to turn on a dime, and do a 180 on a view they had before - that's okay too. And if you present logic to refute their false assumptions, false conclusions, or false definitions about the nature of things, ie.- what it takes to learn/perform a martial skill - they try to spin their way out of it by simply repeating some long drawn out mantra that they've already posted a couple of hunded times without refuting what you said - or they cry "ad hominem". :eek:

Hard on the patience.

That's why I voted to kill them. :p




Not really: my vote was to IGNORE. :cool:





Terence who? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kill them with WC, problem solved and questions answered.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, I know.

But that's a funny one also. Almost wet myself laughing when the last guy who wanted to match up with one of the trolls during another "trash talk discussion" on a thread about a month ago was told to come to a certain city (I forget where now) in the summer of 2008.


:D :D :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think what you are seeing are people that have no Wing Chun experiences at all, but possibly have a book or something. They do not know anything about the mechanics of the system. They have not experienced Chi, and they have no faith in the system. The problem with all this Moi Tai stuff is that it takes a person a long time to develop the physical conditioning and the skills, if you want to all them that, to perform these feats of combat you see in the ring. They talk about the virtues of this and that, but could they personally defend against someone like that? Or could they actually defend against a good Chunner? It is easy to talk smack. I come here to see and converse about Wing Chun, but instead I am always seeing the trolls preaching the virtues of some other system that is really based in strength and physical prowess. Not everyone is going to be able to achieve such goals as is seen in the ring fights. How many of us could last in the ring with someone like that, especially since the rules of the ring place us at the same mercy by limiting what we can do to defend? To me it is just a matter of trying to despell something that they simply can not understand.
Chi does exist. Maybe not in the way most people seem to believe. I think that is why so many do not believe in it. Even some Chunners will say that they do not believe in it. I know it exists, because I feel it every day. It is physical rather than some sort of mental magic. And the first thing you have to do is learn to trust your system of defense.
Po

[anerlich]

This post is basically whining about what to do with people -- like me -- who question your beliefs, who ask for evidence of claims.

I think it was more whining about people -- like ... I wonder who? -- who once had a minor epiphany about their training, and are too self absorbed to see that many others have come to similar conclusions, in many cases a long time before they did, and persist in saturation bombing other members repeatedly with the same derivative ideas, which have been expressed so much more eloquently elsewhere.

Trolls are a fact of life. I don't regard KF or Terence as trolls. They are self-appointed missionaries. Missionaries, not prophets. Maybe Ok if you've never heard them before, but their patter gets old after a while.

Trolls? I enjoy the banter, personally. Maybe all of us are part troll at some time.

[Liddel]

This is just the internet for christs sake.... at the end of the day im firm in my own abilities and have nothing to prove to anyone but myself - just dont let them get to you... and if you get a little pi$$ed then take a break from here....

Ive not come on for three weeks and realised..... nothing changes.

Whats worse - the constant repeating of BS opinions based on others experience or the fact a grown man/men comming on the net to be a jerk and to make himself feel better about himself :D

I feel sorry for some here, its like they dont have a life outside the little grey box.

Im no Randy, never will be... things on here have made me think more they've helped me make realisations and improve my understanding of PEOPLE in general.(scary thought)

I keep having to remind myself - the positives ive got from net forums over the years outweigh the negitives, but its a damm close race....

DREW

[t_niehoff]

It's never-ending. That's what's so hard.


It's never-ending because people continue to make claims, give opinions, etc. without a basis in evidence or reason. If you and others stop doing that . . .



And on top of that, it's a double standard: one for them - and another one for you. B_itch and moan about quality control standards - and they themselves provide none of their own for you to see.


There is no double standard. With regard to me, I never make claims about myself. If I point to experts, I point to people who I can show (evidence) have done the things I am talking about. Remember, for example, that I said if we want to learn how to train to be fighters we should look to how proven fighters really train, how proven trainers actually approach training fighters, etc. and not to people who haven't done these things -- like most people in WCK? Or that we develop our fighting skills by training against the very best people we can find?



And if they want to turn on a dime, and do a 180 on a view they had before - that's okay too.


No one here is locked into a position. Intelligent people do change their views, particularly in light of new evidence, good reasons, etc. That is called learning and growth.



And if you present logic to refute their false assumptions, false conclusions, or false definitions about the nature of things, ie.- what it takes to learn/perform a martial skill - they try to spin their way out of it by simply repeating some long drawn out mantra that they've already posted a couple of hunded times without refuting what you said


This is because most of your assumptions, conclusions, etc. about the "nature of things" are in question. And btw, if you want to use "logic" in your discussions, you'd be advised to actually learn it before you try to use it.



- or they cry "ad hominem". :eek:


That's because you so often resort to those sorts of fallacious arguments (see my suggestion above about actually learning logic). In fact, this whole thread is an ad hominem attack. There is an old lawyer's saw about when you can't argue the law and you can't argue the facts, you attack opposing counsel. It's clear to anyone with a lick of sense that these sorts of things arise only because a person wants to respond, can't do it legitimately, and feels frustrated -- so lashes out with personal attacks. Personal attacks signal that the other person knows they have lost the argument.



Hard on the patience.


Yes, it is.



That's why I voted to kill them. :p

Not really: my vote was to IGNORE. :cool:


Nothing is stopping you from ignoring anyone. I just don't see whay you need to keep whining about it.

[AmanuJRY]

Victor,

Who would you have to talk to, if not for the trolls?

(in other words, what would you talk about if the debates didn't exsist?)

This board would be pretty quiet without contraversy.;)

But...for sure the circular logic, cult mentality and juvinile name calling are quite annoying...just ignore it, you don't need a button...just don't respond. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's just a nice little pushback. Occasionally doing a thread like this. Gives the trolls something unpleasant to think about.

And I like that. :D

After all, how would you feel if there was some public venue callng for your castration???


:eek: :eek: :eek:


Call me crazy, but I'm lovin' this. :cool:

[t_niehoff]

I think what you are seeing are people that have no Wing Chun experiences at all, but possibly have a book or something. They do not know anything about the mechanics of the system.


Or, just maybe, it is you that haven't a clue? The only things anyone knows are those things they can really do.



They have not experienced Chi, and they have no faith in the system.


No one has "experienced" chi since it doesn't exist. There are only four forces in the universe: the weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, electromagnetism, and gravity. So which is chi? If it is any of these, it is easily detected and proved objectively with instruments. Yet it remains unproved. Or is it some biochemical process in the body? Again, that should be easily detectable. But -- apparently -- you, Victor, Hendrik, etc. and the ancient chinese found a way to detect it that has eluded modern science. Not only that, but none of you want to claim the million dollar Randi prize for proving the existence of chi!

"Faith" is for religions. So it is not surprising that you and many others have "faith in the system" -- because WCK is a belief system for you.



The problem with all this Moi Tai stuff is that it takes a person a long time to develop the physical conditioning and the skills, if you want to all them that, to perform these feats of combat you see in the ring. They talk about the virtues of this and that, but could they personally defend against someone like that? Or could they actually defend against a good Chunner? It is easy to talk smack.


There are no shortcuts or easy ways to develop fighting skills. WCK is like MT is like boxing is like BJJ is like judo is like etc. -- you get out of it what you put into it. Put little in it, get little out. MT people train like fighters, and develop into fighters. If you don't train like a fighter, you won't develop much in the way of fighting skill. This isn't "smack", this is how things actually work.



I come here to see and converse about Wing Chun, but instead I am always seeing the trolls preaching the virtues of some other system that is really based in strength and physical prowess.


WCK is an athletic activity, just like any other method of fighting. Physical prowess -- conditioning, attributes, etc. -- plays a large role in any contact "sport" (for lack of a better word).



Not everyone is going to be able to achieve such goals as is seen in the ring fights. How many of us could last in the ring with someone like that, especially since the rules of the ring place us at the same mercy by limiting what we can do to defend? To me it is just a matter of trying to despell something that they simply can not understand.


This is like asking how many of us could hold our own against a pro basketball player? That's the wrong question. What you fail to grasp is that the game (fighting or basketball) doesn't change because we want it to. What it takes to be good at basketball or WCK (fighting) is the same for everyone. And if we want to be good, we should look to proven good players, whether basketball or WCK, and not to people who have never really played the game. The demands of basketball or fighting don't change because we get older or we are a female or we are small or whatever -- the game is the game. And instead of looking to theory or belief or stories of how to play the game, just get out on the court, and you'll see.



Chi does exist. Maybe not in the way most people seem to believe. I think that is why so many do not believe in it. Even some Chunners will say that they do not believe in it. I know it exists, because I feel it every day. It is physical rather than some sort of mental magic. And the first thing you have to do is learn to trust your system of defense.
Po

Yes, you "know" based on your subjective feelings, yet modern science that can find quarks, build atomic reactors, put people in space, transplant organs, etc. just can't seem to find it. Yeah, you're right and they're all wrong. Because you feel it. Got it.

It's nice to have rational discussions with rational people.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Chi does exist. Maybe not in the way most people seem to believe. I think that is why so many do not believe in it. Even some Chunners will say that they do not believe in it. I know it exists, because I feel it every day. It is physical rather than some sort of mental magic." (Lee Chiang Po)


***INDEED.

[AmanuJRY]

It's just a nice little pushback. Occasionally doing a thread like this. Gives the trolls something unpleasant to think about.

And I like that. :D

After all, how would you feel if there was some public venue callng for your castration???


:eek: :eek: :eek:


Call me crazy, but I'm lovin' this. :cool:

OK, You're crazy.:D

That's a pretty steep punishment for just believing something, are you with the thought police?:eek:

No, really, public humiliation and being laughed at should be punishment enough for silly beliefs.;)

[Matrix]

That's a pretty steep punishment for just believing something, are you with the thought police?:eek:Especially when put in context of Dale's "we are idiots" thread

[anerlich]

Personal attacks signal that the other person knows they have lost the argument.

Nah. Sometimes you just want to hurl abuse, even when you're winning the argument.


It's nice to have rational discussions with rational people.

I gather you don't regard sarcasm as a personal attack. Not that I care, you're the one saying, and apparently caring, that it's poor argument, not me.

[monji112000]

How does asking for evidence that supports claims derail threads? I'd think that intelligent people would not believe things in the absence of evidence. And so thoughtful, intelligent people would have evidence at their fingertips to support their views.

Anyone can make claims. If you want to believe them despite the lack of evidence and despite common sense, that's fine -- people believe all kinds of nutty things. But belief doesn't make them true.
monsters.

this is the internet not UCLA's center for applied science. Any proof or believe is a personal choice, a video showing something personally doesn't prove anything. Someone else doing something doesn't prove anything. Me saying something doesn't prove anything. personal action proves it to that person.

yah everyone believes things without evidence. Religion is based on it. Honestly so is science.. because i do believe all its theories.. but I can't really understand most of the reasons.