What is the most important element of a good fighter?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

SevenStar and I were discussing this on another thread and it makes for an interesting topic. The following elements make or break a fighter/martial artist. In no particular order: style, training methods, individual.

Here are my ranking for these and why:

1. Individual: The reason I see this as number 1 is because some people have natural athelticism, god given talent, or whatever natural attributes that enable them the ability to train and apply what they learn. The flipside of this is that some do not posess certain attributes and no matter how much they train they will never be proficient.

2. Training Methods: All in how you apply what you learn. Doing forms or basics in the air will not get it done themselves, sparring, grappling, bag work, conditioning drills are what produces the ability to perform on someone resisting.

3. Style: I put this as least important because most styles of martial arts have the proper techniques but may not be trained properly, going back to training methods. Stand up styles such as Kung Fu, Boxing, Karate, and Muay Thai should all include similiar strikes that work, but generally boxing and Muay Thai get more credit because of their training methods. Same can be said of BJJ, Judo, and Submission Wrestling in grappling martial arts. I also believe that styles are given too much credit in that Individual A can make something work from a certain style while Individual B may not be able to make that same technique work. Which is more important? Discuss.

[MasterKiller]

1. Nuts
2. Strength and Conditioning
3. Skill

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree.
To the indivdual talent I would add the proper mindset and intent.

Will power, desire, self -sacrafice, all individual qualities that make a fighter and that can't be given by any particular style or training method.

[SevenStar]

1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won't be as good as his potential would allow.

2. style. see above. However, I will touch on something that ironeagle76 stated above:
but generally boxing and Muay Thai get more credit because of their training methods.

the thing there is that the training methods are an ingrained part of those styles. the training methods of boxing and muay thai are pretty much universal. you will get similar training and work ethic no matter which gym you train in. with all styles is it not like this. one wc school may have lots of conditioning. the one around the corner may have none, and the one two blocks down may teach grappling - it is not standard.

3. individual. Yeah, some guys just have natural talent, but those are not the guyus to judge a baseline skill level by. The average joe should be able to be trained to be a proficient competitor, and it is his training methods that get him there. He may have the drive to be a world champ, but if his training sucks, then his day will never come.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think you have it pretty much summed up.

If you look at how most Kung Fu is taught, where you get that "Figure it out yourself" attitude, well, that really means make it up yourself and don't bother me....and make it up yourself means "Invent your own style".

So, since the style you are not learning is being foregone for the one you are making up yourself, then ultimatly the original style is lost anyway, and all we have are some examples of it's techniques left over....which means it really all boils down to how well the *individual* can develop his or her own system.

Now, if you have a proven training system, you really don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[SevenStar]

1. Nuts


but women compete too:p:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won't be as good as his potential would allow.

2. style. see above. However, I will touch on something that ironeagle76 stated above:

the thing there is that the training methods are an ingrained part of those styles. the training methods of boxing and muay thai are pretty much universal. you will get similar training and work ethic no matter which gym you train in. with all styles is it not like this. one wc school may have lots of conditioning. the one around the corner may have none, and the one two blocks down may teach grappling - it is not standard.

3. individual. Yeah, some guys just have natural talent, but those are not the guyus to judge a baseline skill level by. The average joe should be able to be trained to be a proficient competitor, and it is his training methods that get him there. He may have the drive to be a world champ, but if his training sucks, then his day will never come.

I know many guys that train the "right" way and will never be fighters.
Its not in them and never will be.

[SevenStar]

I know many guys that train the "right" way and will never be fighters.
Its not in them and never will be.

Of course. but like I said, we are not speaking about exceptions. there will be those that will be good no matter what and there are those that will suck no matter what. you can't draw a baseline on the outliers.

[bodhitree]

1 Right determination/ right attitude

2 Right help (training partners/coach)

3 Right conditioning (wind/energy)

4 Right Technique (closely related to #2)

5 Right confidence (not too much, not too little)/ prepreation

[MasterKiller]

1.training methods. I can take an olympic level tkd guy and throw him into mma and he will get killed. Why? he is not training for the venue. He is used to the high kicking which will get him taken down. He will not be much of a puncher. His grappling skill will be zero. He may be the most talented guy around, but because his training methods are wrong. he won't be as good as his potential would allow.

Training methods don't mean squat if you don't have the nutz to step into a fight.

Remember Season 2 on TUF? That wrestler who dominated every practice but CHOKED in his fight?

He was trained right, but didn't have the right mindset for the actual fight.

[Becca]

1. Individual- It is the responsability of the fighter to know what they are capable of and not do something stupid. It is thier responsability to know what tools they might need and to get the help and training to accomplish thier goals. It is the responsability of the fighter to train and condition themselves. It is also the fighter who needs to maintain focus so all the training and conditioning get a chance to work.

2. Conditioning- All the technique in the world ain't gonna help you if you can't take a hit or gas out early. :rolleyes:

3. Training Methods- A perfect punch/kick/clinch/sprawl is useless if you don't know how to turn that one move into an efective combo. Lets face it, very rarely are you going to get a one-punch KO; you're going to need a few good, solid combos to open the door.

Style doesn't rank at all. It isn't a style that fails, but the fighter. Saying an Olymic TKD fighter would loose in a grappling match is all well and good. But a stand-up fighter going into a grappling match expecting to win is about like a knife fighter going into a gun fight expecting to win. And thinking you can do it successfully is a failing of the fighter, not the style.

[Eddie]

Conditioning and endurance (mental as well as physical).

Skill is probably least important.

I have seen it down here so often. Guys with little skill are able to take the punishment and still have enough endurance to eventually win the fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course. but like I said, we are not speaking about exceptions. there will be those that will be good no matter what and there are those that will suck no matter what. you can't draw a baseline on the outliers.

When it comes to being a fighter, the vast majority are NOT.

[Black Jack II]

In my view its not the training, nor the conditioning, its the mindset.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my view its not the training, nor the conditioning, its the mindset.

I think there maybe to 2 schools of though here, the competitive fighter and the MA/Fighter.

[Black Jack II]

Good point,

It depends on what context people are talking about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

While conditioning is important, period, it is more so in sport combat.
Cardio-vascular conditioning that it.

[SevenStar]

When it comes to being a fighter, the vast majority are NOT.

that depends on the level of fighter you are looking for. professional level, you are correct. anything under, I would disagree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that depends on the level of fighter you are looking for. professional level, you are correct. anything under, I would disagree.

Most of the gym I have been too, be it MMA or Boxing or MT, the majority don't really train for competition, in the sense that competition is NOT their main goal.
These would not be called fighters even though they may compete.

[SevenStar]

1. Individual- It is the responsability of the fighter to know what they are capable of and not do something stupid. It is thier responsability to know what tools they might need and to get the help and training to accomplish thier goals. It is the responsability of the fighter to train and condition themselves.

this is actually the function of a good coach.



Style doesn't rank at all. It isn't a style that fails, but the fighter. Saying an Olymic TKD fighter would loose in a grappling match is all well and good. But a stand-up fighter going into a grappling match expecting to win is about like a knife fighter going into a gun fight expecting to win. And thinking you can do it successfully is a failing of the fighter, not the style.

right, and him knowing that, he changes his style and training methods - he adds grappling. Also, some styles, as I pointed out earlier, have the necessary training methods ingrained in them. That is style specific as well.

[SevenStar]

Most of the gym I have been too, be it MMA or Boxing or MT, the majority don't really train for competition, in the sense that competition is NOT their main goal.
These would not be called fighters even though they may compete.

What would you call them?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Competitors.

[SevenStar]

Training methods don't mean squat if you don't have the nutz to step into a fight.

Remember Season 2 on TUF? That wrestler who dominated every practice but CHOKED in his fight?

He was trained right, but didn't have the right mindset for the actual fight.

yeah, I agree with you here. I was actually assuming the guy had nads.

[boshea]

Attitude, skill, conditioning.

I put these three on equal footing. Each one can make or break a fighter.

I qualify this by saying that I am not a fighter. Meaning I have never fought in the ring, and all of the "real" fights that I have been in were in my very distant youth, when none of the participants had any skill or conditioning to speak of.

However, I have sparred, and I have watched fights (on the street and in the ring). As several have posted, even the most conditioned and skilled fighter can lose due to lack of attitude. I consider force of will / gameness (to borrow a dogfighting term) to be an element of attitude. If I was forced to put one above the others, I'd put attitude first.

Having said that, I plan on fighting in the ring (I'm currently training in Muay Thai), and when I do, there will be video. And if it isn't too embarrassing I will post it here. Oh heck, I'll post it even if it is embarrassing!

[SevenStar]

Competitors.

so A guy doesn't train to compete specifically, as it's not his main goal. However, he enters the the ikf nationals and wins his division - he is not a fighter?

[John Takeshi]

Well, I agree that most of what you gentlemen posted was spot on. Yet I disagree that any of those components of fighting are the most important.

The most important element in a good fighter is "grace".

There are many thugs and hoodlums we might think are good fighters, but all of them lack grace, and therefore will not even apporach a rudimentary understanding that those invested in Chinese and Japanese martial arts enjoy. Who cares if you can throw a devastating overhand punch while jumping forward in a bestial, untrained manner....ala that thug, Liddel? I can just as easily execute a flawless butterfly twist and evade his mere thuggery unharmed.

[SevenStar]

can't we just block his IP so that he can't keep coming back with new names?

[sanjuro_ronin]

so A guy doesn't train to compete specifically, as it's not his main goal. However, he enters the the ikf nationals and wins his division - he is not a fighter?

I think that we are looking at two different things...

You are thinking fighter = someone who fights, in that regards anyone and everyone who fights is a fighter.

I am thinking more in terms of "fighter per excellence".

[John Takeshi]

can't we just block his IP so that he can't keep coming back with new names?

I was not banned, and I resent the implication. I am currently experiencing account troubles with the other screen name, so I cannot access the main forum. Royal Dragon had the same issue.

I suspect treachery.

[Becca]

this is actually the function of a good coach...Coach isn't the one in the ring. Some fighters don't lesten to thier corner well when fighting- how's the coach going to help then? What if the coach isn't a good match for the fighter?

I still say the person is the most important ingrediant. The measure of how good you are is when you can answer those questions and find a way to tailor things around your needs to make you the best you can be.


right, and him knowing that, he changes his style and training methods - he adds grappling. Also, some styles, as I pointed out earlier, have the necessary training methods ingrained in them. That is style specific as well.
Changing the style you are fighting with doesn't make the other style a failure.

The style is a tool box, the techniques are the tools. Using the tool box that is better tailored for the venue is smart stratagy and says nothing about the other styles you might knowbut chose not to use. Other than that you didn't feel them aparopriat, of course.:)

[David Jamieson]

The want to be a fighter.

[golden arhat]

HEARTis the most important thing


then basics, basics, basics

[Becca]

HEARTis the most important thing


then basics, basics, basics
Don't know why, but your post brought to mind "Killer" from the movie Million Dollar Baby. That kid had all the heart in the world, trained with everything he had... And couldn't figure out how they got the ice inside those bottles of water.:rolleyes:

[Adventure427]

Well the elements a good RING fighter may be different from a good STREET fighter.

For the RING:

Trainning Methods
Conditioning
Skill
Individual


Now any of these elements missing is disaster, i put them in that order because if you dont train for the ring you wont last...conditioning/trainning methods go hand in hand but if you just started trainning properly you may not be conditioned yet.

Skill is important otherwise you wont get any hits in.

And the individual is important because not everyone is a fighter or has the mindset to go in there and last. But even if you do have the mindset, if you aren't conditioned you are gonna get your a$$ kicked.


For the STREET i'd put them differently.

Individual
Trainning Methods
Skill
Conditioning.


Individual first because if you are EXTREMLY conflict avoidant and can't be aggressive enough to end the confrontation or start it first to end it, then you'll probably get hit first and if you get hit hard enough, lose the fight right there.

Trainning methods because if you aren't trained to use every weapon you have at your disposal you're at a disadvantage than someone who is. Now you dont have to necessarily USE all of them (I personally wouldn't kick most likely)

I put skill above conditioning because most real fights dont last very long (The ones i've seen/been in) so if you can land the right blow at the right time you can call it a day once you get in position.

Conditioning I put last because again most fights dont last long, but its on the list because i was in a fight that went a grueling 11minutes, and i would have LOVED to have more conditioining because thats why I lost...luckily it was someone i knew so we could stop the fight once we were done, otherwise i could have got killed.



Just my opinions, and i'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to them just like there is to everyone elses.

[PangQuan]

heart

conditioning/training

instinct


I lump conditioning and training and skill together because i believe they are co existant

[sanjuro_ronin]

What about chi ?
Where's the chi people ??

[PangQuan]

What about chi ?
Where's the chi people ??

lol !

Thats just a given my friend, we all know that no one can become a real kungfu master until you can move your masters "beverage can" with your Qi

[Yum Cha]

Don't forget the ugly guy,
He doesn't care if his face gets effed up.

[eomonroe00]

Some interesting ideas, someone said skill is least important and he has seen proof, I have not seen proof of my idea, but I think one wouldn’t need endurance if the skill is there, for example many say fights should not last more than a minute, unless you are dead evenly matched.
1. skill, technique, attitude( I think power, body connection, and energy are all part of skill)
2. endurance

I think strength is the least important-at least coming from a kung fu, not a ground fighting background-because many people are strong or have larger muscles, but have not learned how to move that strength through the body efficienty, much of the power is lost in transition

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Some interesting ideas, someone said skill is least important and he has seen proof, I have not seen proof of my idea, but I think one wouldn’t need endurance if the skill is there, for example many say fights should not last more than a minute, unless you are dead evenly matched.
1. skill, technique, attitude( I think power, body connection, and energy are all part of skill)
2. endurance

I think strength is the least important-at least coming from a kung fu, not a ground fighting background-because many people are strong or have larger muscles, but have not learned how to move that strength through the body efficienty, much of the power is lost in transition

Being scrawny and weak is clearly the way to go.

[eomonroe00]

that is clearly what i was saying
:)

[SevenStar]

Coach isn't the one in the ring. Some fighters don't lesten to thier corner well when fighting- how's the coach going to help then? What if the coach isn't a good match for the fighter?

the coach is the one that gets you ready for the ring. the coach will still help between rounds, as that's what seconds are for. what you listed still falls under the category of a good coach.


Changing the style you are fighting with doesn't make the other style a failure.

it makes it a failure for the given venue.

[SevenStar]

I think strength is the least important-at least coming from a kung fu, not a ground fighting background-because many people are strong or have larger muscles, but have not learned how to move that strength through the body efficienty, much of the power is lost in transition

not true. watch the push hands competition vids on youtube - it looks like judo matches. IDEALLY you want to use as little force as possible. BJJ is the same way. realistically it doesn't work that way against a resisting opponent unless you are much better than they are.

[Becca]

it makes it a failure for the given venue.
Only a failure in that venue if you're dumb enough to use it in the wrong venue. Goes right back to the individual making good choises. It'ain't the style's fault if the person training in it got thier head up thier bum...;)

[SevenStar]

Only a failure in that venue if you're dumb enough to use it in the wrong venue. Goes right back to the individual making good choises. It'ain't the style's fault if the person training in it got thier head up thier bum...;)

so a tkd guy should never enter muay thai or mma? heck the original premise of mma was to allow people from a variety of styles to compete with eachother. But, you have to train for the specific venue - training methods.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so a tkd guy should never enter muay thai or mma? heck the original premise of mma was to allow people from a variety of styles to compete with eachother. But, you have to train for the specific venue - training methods.

Someone training for a olympic TKD match and entering a MMA match is not a good move.
Just like someone training MMA and entering a TKD match would get owned.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Someone training for a olympic TKD match and entering a MMA match is not a good move.
Just like someone training MMA and entering a TKD match would get owned.

Spinning wheel kick FTW!!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Only a failure in that venue if you're dumb enough to use it in the wrong venue. Goes right back to the individual making good choises. It'ain't the style's fault if the person training in it got thier head up thier bum...;)

Agree, however a style will fail if it does not prepare you for an outcome you are not trained in. For example, a boxer fighting a BJJ practioner that shoots the takedown on the boxer will win, unless the boxer has grappling experience or gets that shot off before the shoot (or during). Styles can and do fail in that if they have short comings in either striking or grappling than they did not accomplish their goal, which is to keep you from getting your ass kicked.

[Becca]

so a tkd guy should never enter muay thai or mma? heck the original premise of mma was to allow people from a variety of styles to compete with eachother. But, you have to train for the specific venue - training methods.???? I said the style is not a failure if used in the wrong venue. If the TKD guy uses TKD in MMA, he should expect to fail. That does not mean TKD su(ks. It means the fighter used the wrong tool box for the job.:rolleyes:

[Becca]

Agree, however a style will fail if it does not prepare you for an outcome you are not trained in. For example, a boxer fighting a BJJ practioner that shoots the takedown on the boxer will win, unless the boxer has grappling experience or gets that shot off before the shoot (or during). Styles can and do fail in that if they have short comings in either striking or grappling than they did not accomplish their goal, which is to keep you from getting your ass kicked.
... yes and no. They style might not work as you were trained to beleive it would. But I think the fault would lie with the one who told you it would work. A good coach would never tell a boxer he could beat a grappler with no other training.

Unfortunatly, a lot of TMA teacher do tell thier students this type of B.S.:(

[Shadow Skill]

The individual imo is the most important, because the individual should include all other aspects. a) training it's up to the individual to put time and effort into his/her training. B) mind set, an individual has to have the mind set to train and compete/ fight. c) skill, an individuals training makes up his skill.
I also think style is important because certin theories within a system may dertermine how a person fights, what type of strikes they use, footwork, blocks. which side of the body to attack and why. the training methods used.

[Anthony]

Most important element? I'd have to say size/muscle mass. Related would be your ability to take a blow. If you can't take getting hit you're better off just running away. Your skill level won't matter as much if your the size of Hulk Hogan. Most people would be much smaller than you and that's the best advantage imo.

The animal world works the same way. Warrior animals are usually bigger and bulkier and can take punishment. More petit animals with light/skinny frames usually either bluff or run away.