Aikido vs Bagua Zhang

[tattooedmonk]

Through my studies I have found that Aikido and Bagua have many similar aspects to them. I am aware of the history surrounding both arts and the stories about the basis for aikido being in Bagua( ??true or not??)I was wondering what you all thought about this ?

[lkfmdc]

I think you're a fruit loop and a great example of everything that is wrong with CMA today.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Aikido came from Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ansd while O-sensei was in China, I don't recall him having trained under any Bagua master.

If you can find a common link somewhere, you may have a "case".

Fact is, systems that are based on circular re-direct will look very much the same because the human body only moves in X number of ways.

[lkfmdc]

Aikido is based upon unrealistic attacks and relies upon total cooperation of the partner

Tattoo is a LARP'er who lives in a ginger bread castle in the sky, is seeking a cooperative partner...

[tattooedmonk]

I think you're a fruit loop and a great example of everything that is wrong with CMA today..... coming from you I will take this as a compliment.:D

[Black Jack II]

Aikido is based upon unrealistic attacks and relies upon total cooperation of the partner

So true this is.

[tattooedmonk]

Aikido is based upon unrealistic attacks and relies upon total cooperation of the partner

Tattoo is a LARP'er who lives in a ginger bread castle in the sky, is seeking a cooperative partner... This is not what I am talking about . I am talking about the REAL Martial Art of Aikido not the demilitarized version done now a days, idiot.

[tattooedmonk]

Aikido came from Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ansd while O-sensei was in China, I don't recall him having trained under any Bagua master.

If you can find a common link somewhere, you may have a "case".

Fact is, systems that are based on circular re-direct will look very much the same because the human body only moves in X number of ways.Thanx, I am aware of this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Aikido is based upon unrealistic attacks and relies upon total cooperation of the partner

Tattoo is a LARP'er who lives in a ginger bread castle in the sky, is seeking a cooperative partner...

Huge sweeping generalization of Aikido.

[lkfmdc]

This is not what I am talking about . I am talking about the REAL Martial Art of Aikido not the demilitarized version done now a days, idiot.

anyone see the trend here

The "real" martial art of Aikido... which no one seems to be able to demonstrate

The "real" ground grappling of CMA,... which no one seems to able to demonstrate

YET, and this is the best part, according to the lunatic here, the UFC is fake :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

anyone see the trend here

The "real" martial art of Aikido... which no one seems to be able to demonstrate

The "real" ground grappling of CMA,... which no one seems to able to demonstrate

YET, and this is the best part, according to the lunatic here, the UFC is fake :rolleyes:

Ok, that was funny.

[lkfmdc]

Trying to argue about "fighting aikido" is like trying to argue that raquet ball is really Free Mason fencing in disguise :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) explicitly stated that Aikido was a spiritual discipline, not a martial art, aimed at teaching people to "harmonize with eachother"

A real martial art wouldn't base its entire existance on a guy running at you from across the room with his hand over his head in a "karuhtty chop" pose :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) was a member of a Shinto cult, his views on "harmony" and mankind were very influenced by his membership

Attempts to "recreate" the "martial art" just take it back to Aikijitsu, ie Jujitsu, which has been officially dead since the police college challenges

[tattooedmonk]

anyone see the trend here

The "real" martial art of Aikido... which no one seems to be able to demonstrate

The "real" ground grappling of CMA,... which no one seems to able to demonstrate

YET, and this is the best part, according to the lunatic here, the UFC is fake :rolleyes:This is the sign of you mental problems right here .

Plenty of people practice these arts , they either do not have the time or care to post here or a variety of other REASONS.

As for the UFC I did not say it was fake. You find where I posted that.Prove it
b!tch

Anyone that knows how to read and comprehend without reading into it how they want to will tell you that is not what I posted . Only and insucure, illiterate moron would read what I posted and say that is what I said.

You my friend are and insane idiot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trying to argue about "fighting aikido" is like trying to argue that raquet ball is really Free Mason fencing in disguise :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) explicitly stated that Aikido was a spiritual discipline, not a martial art, aimed at teaching people to "harmonize with eachother"

A real martial art wouldn't base its entire existance on a guy running at you from across the room with his hand over his head in a "karuhtty chop" pose :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) was a member of a Shinto cult, his views on "harmony" and mankind were very influenced by his membership

Attempts to "recreate" the "martial art" just take it back to Aikijitsu, ie Jujitsu, which has been officially dead since the police college challenges

Ueshiba's move from practical MA to Budo art are well documented.
In his book Budo, you see him doing serious aikijutsu and even ground work.

Aikikai is very much still O-Sensei influenced but there are branches/dojo's venturing into practical aikido, the Yoshinkan has always been more practical, but only after the BB level.
Tomiki is very sport oriented.

The Daitoryu still exsists today.

[lkfmdc]

Tell us all where we can find these "real" aikido schools where they do "real fighting"?

They must be hiding in the same cave with all the Chinese kung fu masters who could win PRIDE but don't want the exposure

It's a big cave, because it's also filled with all those Chi Kung masters who could claim James Rhandi's million dollars but simply "aren't motivated to do it" :rolleyes:

Oh, by they way, I'd hazard to guess my academic credentials would blow yours away, "Shaolin university" isn't an acredited academic institution :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Trying to argue about "fighting aikido" is like trying to argue that raquet ball is really Free Mason fencing in disguise :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) explicitly stated that Aikido was a spiritual discipline, not a martial art, aimed at teaching people to "harmonize with eachother"

A real martial art wouldn't base its entire existance on a guy running at you from across the room with his hand over his head in a "karuhtty chop" pose :rolleyes:

Ueshiba (sp?) was a member of a Shinto cult, his views on "harmony" and mankind were very influenced by his membership

Attempts to "recreate" the "martial art" just take it back to Aikijitsu, ie Jujitsu, which has been officially dead since the police college challenges Where would you get that idea and association?? They are not even the same thing you moron. Only someone with severe mental problems would say something like this. You must be schitzophrenic. Are you??

You do not see these arts properly , you have a very narrow mind and lack any true knowledge on these subjects.

That is one school of thought regarding Aikido , just ushiba's way and essentially the deepest part of any art. That was his emphasis, but it comes from an actual martial art. idiot

get a clue.

[lkfmdc]

The "practical" aikido you see always comes from the people who cross trained at the Kodokan. And whenever they have to randori, the stuff that they manage to pull off is always the judo material.

Watch a Yoshinkan competition, as soon as it goes to randori, it becomes Judo. None of the characteristic aikido techniques exist in that realm.

Daitoryu exists, but has about as much relevance to today's empty hand combat as pieces from Gettysburg do to modern warfare

Classical jujitsu ceased to be relevant the day after the police college challenge. Any modern "jujitsu" that has any function whatsoever is heavily influenced by JUDO



Ueshiba's move from practical MA to Budo art are well documented.
In his book Budo, you see him doing serious aikijutsu and even ground work.

Aikikai is very much still O-Sensei influenced but there are branches/dojo's venturing into practical aikido, the Yoshinkan has always been more practical, but only after the BB level.
Tomiki is very sport oriented.

The Daitoryu still exsists today.

[lkfmdc]

watching Tattoo dissolve into a raving lunatic is worth the price of admission. It's more fun than telling kids that there is no tooth fairy :D

Darn, I guess Tattoo didn't know that! Now he's wondering how he got all those nickles when he was a kid, but it also explains why once he moved out of his house the money stopped appearing, too bad he has already pulled out all but one of his teeth

[sanjuro_ronin]

The "practical" aikido you see always comes from the people who cross trained at the Kodokan. And whenever they have to randori, the stuff that they manage to pull off is always the judo material.

Watch a Yoshinkan competition, as soon as it goes to randori, it becomes Judo. None of the characteristic aikido techniques exist in that realm.

Daitoryu exists, but has about as much relevance to today's empty hand combat as pieces from Gettysburg do to modern warfare

Classical jujitsu ceased to be relevant the day after the police college challenge. Any modern "jujitsu" that has any function whatsoever is heavily influenced by JUDO

You realize that Saigo was a Daito-ryu guy right?
I think that many koryu jujutsu systems became judo, yes.
Popularity = survival in the MA.

As for practical aikido being judo, well...I don't wanna get into that debate, it will lead to the whole chicken or the egg thing.

[tattooedmonk]

Tell us all where we can find these "real" aikido schools where they do "real fighting"?

They must be hiding in the same cave with all the Chinese kung fu masters who could win PRIDE but don't want the exposure

It's a big cave, because it's also filled with all those Chi Kung masters who could claim James Rhandi's million dollars but simply "aren't motivated to do it" :rolleyes:

Oh, by they way, I'd hazard to guess my academic credentials would blow yours away, "Shaolin university" isn't an acredited academic institution :rolleyes: BLAHBLHA BLAHBLAHBLAH Same **** different day. Not like it matters to you any way . You will talk **** and say that they are not this or they are that ,whatever.

Nothing is as good as what you do and believe , your superioity complex is going to be and is your down fall.

Your problem is that you take your bad experiences and the lame stories about other martial artists and pin them on everyone, which is immmature and just plain stupid.

Stop making blanket and general statments and act as if they absolutely apply to everyone or all of us.

As for your education it does not seem to be doing much for you. I have friends who are scientist , doctors , lawyers , judges not to mention my own education , wooopp tee doo

who gives a F#Ck??

[lkfmdc]

translation = no, he can't point us towards any aikido that actually works :rolleyes:

LMFAO @ "my downfall"

If my "downfall" is having a hugely successful school and training people who can actually fight, yup, it's happened already! :p

You come on like a comic book, a cheap pulp comic book

[lkfmdc]

oh, and the answer is, no one gives a f@ck about you ........

[tattooedmonk]

translation = no, he can't point us towards any aikido that actually works :rolleyes:

LMFAO @ "my downfall"

If my "downfall" is having a hugely successful school and training people who can actually fight, yup, it's happened already! :p

You come on like a comic book, a cheap pulp comic book Interpret it how you want . Im glad you have the success that you desire.

There is more to what we do than just fighting, although a very large part of it is practical application= fighting. This seems to be more of hwat you promote and your ego and posts are direct proof of this.

[tattooedmonk]

oh, and the answer is, no one gives a f@ck about you ........Oh whaaan I could cry. It appears you do or you would not be responding to what I post.:D

[lkfmdc]

There is more to what we do than just fighting



you can script these things, they always go the same way

the last refuge of the ginger bread castle patrol, when all else fails, revert back to the "it's not just about fighting"

which = no, we can't fight.....:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

you can script these things, they always go the same way

the last refuge of the ginger bread castle patrol, when all else fails, revert back to the "it's not just about fighting"

which = no, we can't fight.....:rolleyes: I have already had my days of fighting for real I am past that now. I teach people to use what I teach to defend themselves= FIGHTING. I am still curious as to what type of psychosis you are going through to cause you to respond the way you do based on the posts that you are responding to.

You have yet to really answer the questions posed to you and others and always find a way to duck and dodge them. This is the sign of someone who has severe mental problems .

Maybe you should stop getting hit in the head for awhile and give your body a chance to rejuvinate those brains cells before that option is no long possible.:D

where in post did I say "IT IS NOT ABOUT FIGHTING?? HUH

[tattooedmonk]

Interpret it how you want . Im glad you have the success that you desire.

There is more to what we do than just fighting, although a very large part of it is practical application= fighting. This seems to be more of what you promote and your ego and posts are direct proof of this. HERE IS THE POST AGAIN, WHERE DID I SAY IT WAS NOT ABOUT FIGHTING????

[lkfmdc]

I have already had my days of fighting for real



when and where?




I teach people to use what I teach to defend themselves


we need to have pitty for those people




I am still curious as to what type of psychosis you are going through


I am not the dillusional freak living in LA LA LAND :rolleyes:




You have yet to really answer the questions posed to you


Just because you dont like the answers doesn't mean they haven't been answered :rolleyes:

So, again, where are these practical aikido schools? :cool:

[Black Jack II]

Aikido is touchy, feely, pseudo-intellectualism wrapped in Amer-Asia delusians.

Even the tougher stuff like the Yoshinkan sect is better left dead for something you can learn faster and with more practical training. Yoshinkan has been known to make a believer out of some but you have to think of what context that is in reference to.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Aikido is touchy, feely, pseudo-intellectualism wrapped in Amer-Asia delusians.

Even the tougher stuff like the Yoshinkan sect is better left dead for something you can learn faster and with more practical training. Yoshinkan has been known to make a believer out of some but you have to think of what context that is in reference to.

Yoshinkan can be very good or very bad, sometimes even worse than the Aikikai.

[John Takeshi]

anyone see the trend here

The "real" martial art of Aikido... which no one seems to be able to demonstrate

The "real" ground grappling of CMA,... which no one seems to able to demonstrate

YET, and this is the best part, according to the lunatic here, the UFC is fake :rolleyes:

It's about as real as pro wrestling.

[lkfmdc]

congratulations Tattoo, now mega-fool is your buddy, THAT is an achievement

Mega/John/Turd.... you do realize your act is old, stale and crusty, like your moma's panties

[tattooedmonk]

congratulations Tattoo, now mega-fool is your buddy, THAT is an achievement

Mega/John/Turd.... you do realize your act is old, stale and crusty, like your moma's panties Great.:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

[golden arhat]

I think you're a fruit loop and a great example of everything that is wrong with CMA today.....

why
it is documented that ueshiba trained in china
both arts have a very circular theme to them
why is it unreasonable to make a link between the 2 ?

not only that but he said he didnt know if it was true or not

it was a perfectly good question and topic


so maybe u just need to calm down

[golden arhat]

Aikido is based upon unrealistic attacks and relies upon total cooperation of the partner

Tattoo is a LARP'er who lives in a ginger bread castle in the sky, is seeking a cooperative partner...

alot of that is true
but then u find that in almost all CMA aswell including ba gua zhang

not only that but there is a reason the police in tokyo are affiliated with a well known aikido dojo who operate their riot police course

i guess weither an art is useless or not depends entirely on what u put into it and how u train huh ?

as i said before CALM DOWN
and simply adress what was said with out mocking the guy

[golden arhat]

congratulations Tattoo, now mega-fool is your buddy, THAT is an achievement

see now u could have left it at that


Mega/John/Turd.... you do realize your act is old, stale and crusty, like your moma's panties

mommas panties ?
was that necessary ?
what did it have to do with anything ?


CHILL B!TCH CHILLLLL - samuel l jackson

[Mr Punch]

Ueshiba's move from practical MA to Budo art are well documented.
In his book Budo, you see him doing serious aikijutsu and even ground work.Quite right.

I suspect it was some form of PTSD that influenced his post-war disintegration into a religious maniac since he'd spent most of his earlier years avoiding the worst of the ravings of Takeda.

His pre-war stuff was as practical as any of the kodokan, as you can see by the list of some of the kodokan people who challenged him. This is documented. It's not online AFAIK or care, but it's well documented.

I know in this phase of revisionist bullsh!t based only on what has ever been videoed this is an anathema, but tough.


Aikikai is very much still O-Sensei influenced but there are branches/dojo's venturing into practical aikido, the Yoshinkan has always been more practical, but only after the BB level.
Tomiki is very sport oriented.

The Daitoryu still exsists today.There's good and bad in all of them. I know of aikikai schools who practice with very free very resistant training, I know Yoshinkan that's so by the numbers it really reallt sucks unless you are an aibo, and I know of people (including one of my teachers) who demonstrate how modern daito-ryu has lost any fighting applicability by teaching it's old-school body skills.


LKFMDC: stick to your history of CMA. You're at risk of making an idiot of yourself with your statements about practical aikido just being judo. They're sister arts. When I've used aikido practically the way I was taught in sparring and da 5tr33t of course it looks like judo or jujutsu, with more strikes than either. And as for jujutsu having no relevance, again you're talking out of pure ignorance. I've met JJJers who've been training the same stuff as BJJ for longer... and yes, they regularly fight in Deep, Pancrase and Shooto over here: the world's bigger than NYC, BJJ and US shows like UFC, you know. Of course there aren't as many because BJJ has the better marketing machine and had the high level sports profile from the start, but it's still there.

Finally: aikido has nothing to do with bagua. Ueshiba went to Manchuria as part of an invasion force which saw hand-to-hand fighting. Do any of you really think some bagua master of that generation would just show this invader their skills? Apart from differences in movement (although there are also many similarities). Plus, however fake daito-ryu may be (there is no evidence to suggest it is as old as the lineage-holders say) its roots are definitely jujutsu from before Ueshiba. Maybe centuries ago there was some cross-fertilization, but it's all speculation.

[BigPandaBear]

Aikido has the "potential" to be a real martial art. Unfortunately most schools today teach spiritual nonsense that has no real practical value. Like lkfmdc stated, its mostly based on unrealistic attacks and compliance.

That said, it is rooted in solid principles. However, I would recommend anyone to study Judo first, and then move on to Aikido (if they want to). Judo is far more practical and its very nature goes against compliance. Not to make this into a style debate, but Judo has proved its worth in NHB and other sports competitions for years now. I think the problem a lot of people have is that Judo isn't a "pretty" martial art. You have mostly big burly men throwing each other around and/or wrestling each other on the ground. Its not as pretty as dancing around in a Hakama, and consequently there aren't as many attractive ladies in Judo either.

However if you want to really learn how to defend yourself, there's not many MAs better than Judo. Every brawl I've witnessed goes into a clinch. Judo teaches you how to deal with a clinch. People want to learn how to defend themselves against larger opponents. Chances are, you aren't going to be the largest guy in the class. People want to learn how to fight on the ground. Gracie Jujitsu comes from Judo newaza and both schools are pretty mixed these days.

I wont comment on Bagua since I haven't run across any Bagua schools in my neck of the woods. However, I just have this to say; Some people just want to wear pretty outfits and do circular dances with swords in their hands. :p

[lkfmdc]

LKFMDC: stick to your history of CMA. You're at risk of making an idiot of yourself with your statements about practical aikido just being judo. They're sister arts. When I've used aikido practically the way I was taught in sparring and da 5tr33t of course it looks like judo or jujutsu, with more strikes than either. And as for jujutsu having no relevance, again you're talking out of pure ignorance. I've met JJJers who've been training the same stuff as BJJ for longer... and yes, they regularly fight in Deep, Pancrase and Shooto over here: the world's bigger than NYC, BJJ and US shows like UFC, you know. Of course there aren't as many because BJJ has the better marketing machine and had the high level sports profile from the start, but it's still there.



Have to look around for a clip, but there is footage of an American with NO TRAINING asking one of Ueshiba's top students to fight him, in the subsequent match, one of the TOP GUYS in Aikido couldn't do a darn thing to a guy with NO TRAINING... very well documented. If I find the clip, all the better of course




I've met JJJers who've been training the same stuff as BJJ for longer...



No, you've met people who took the randori concept from Judo and yet continued to use the "jujitsu" name. Classical Japanese Jujitsu DIED after the police college challenge (which was well before any MMA era in case you weren't aware).

After the police college challenge nothing was ever teh same




yes, they regularly fight in Deep, Pancrase and Shooto over here



Again, those that are competing are doing randori, they are actively rolling

And the techniques they use look NOTHIGN like aikido

[Mr Punch]

Have to look around for a clip, but there is footage of an American with NO TRAINING asking one of Ueshiba's top students to fight him, in the subsequent match, one of the TOP GUYS in Aikido couldn't do a darn thing to a guy with NO TRAINING... very well documented. If I find the clip, all the better of course
1) This has zero relevance to the part of my post you snipped above it.
2) Who was the top guy? Was he a pre-war student? Where is it documented and by whom? And yeah, vid would be interesting, not because I don't believe you, but because I want to see it.
3) Even if that was the case, what would it prove about Ueshiba's aikido? I already said his pre-war stuff was good and the rest not so... and in fact I would probably go so far as to say by the time he was teaching mainstream he'd already started to lose it: having seen footage of him in 1935 doing typical aiki floaty BS. But even if that7s what he was teachign doesn7t mean he wasn'T solid before then.


No, you've met people who took the randori concept from Judo and yet continued to use the "jujitsu" name. Classical Japanese Jujitsu DIED after the police college challenge (which was well before any MMA era in case you weren't aware).Where are you getting this? Mark Tripp? I don't remember him saying that. Of course they used the randori concept and still called it jujutsu... what the hell do you think Carlos and Helio Gracie did? So what's to say jujutsu died? Sounds like it adapted to me... but since judo came from jujutsu anyway, I don't know how you can say that jujutsu adopting the judo sports model means that in some way jujutsu sold out or died or disappeared or whatever.


Again, those that are competing are doing randori, they are actively rollingAgain, your point? Your ideas of classical staid battlefield jujutsu have been surpassed by rolling and competitive models, and this means jujutsu itself is somehow lacking? I really don't get your drift.

Of course crap JJJ still exists, but there's also good JJJ.


And the techniques they use look NOTHIGN like aikido
I never said it did. I said good aiki looks like JJ, not the other way round. It's the same as the good CMA looks lik good kickboxing or whatever argument. The only difference is that competition is still frowned upon in most aiki circles for whatever argument, so you don't get (m)any competitors.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Maybe you should stop getting hit in the head for awhile and give your body a chance to rejuvinate those brains cells before that option is no long possible.:D


Brain cells don't "rejuvinate". They don't even 'regenerate'. That is why people don't get 'smarter' as they get older...lol


They are the only cells in the body that don't grow back. :p

[lkfmdc]

This has zero relevance to the part of my post you snipped above it.



Obviously, and I don't mean this an insult, but you aren't getting my argument here

Aikido is not a fighting art. Any attempt to make it so is just "reversion" to older Aikijujitsu, ie older classical jujitsu, but I'll get to that in a minute

I honestly wished I remembered all the details because it would make finding the clip a lot easier. American film crew was filming Ueshiba and one of his top guys, it may even be the founder of Tomiki Aikido but dont' quote me, I am NOT sure

One of the Americans was really skeptical about the demonstration. He persisted, to the point they felt they had to try and "save face". In his socks, with no training, the guy does some really bad boxing and the Aikido guy's nose starts to bleed I think. He ultimately just charges in and sort of holds him down. The whole episode was very embarassing, top student of famous martial artist looks like crap vs guy with NO TRAINING at all. Ergo, the idea Aikido is much of a fighting art is very questionable




Of course they used the randori concept and still called it jujutsu...



But when you start doing randori, by definition you are not doing classical jujitsu. Classical jujitsu died after the police college, that's just a point of fact




what the hell do you think Carlos and Helio Gracie did?



that's an entirely different thread, but suffice to say, BJJ is not Classical Jujitsu, it is a child of Judo, just like sambo and San da





Again, your point? Your ideas of classical staid battlefield jujutsu have been surpassed by rolling and competitive models, and this means jujutsu itself is somehow lacking? I really don't get your drift.



there are only two "models", those that work and those that don't. Without randori, a martial art is destined for failure. With randori, what it practices and how it practices will of course change

Aikido has no randori. It's "signature moves" require unrealistic attacks and compliant partners.

If you show me a guy doing o-soto gar into juji gatame, I don't care if his hakama says "Aikido", it is not aikido, it isn't even Aikijujitsu, it is a derivative of Judo, ie a derivative of randori

[Adventure427]

. ... people don't get 'smarter' as they get older...


Nicely demonstrated...lol j/k

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have to look around for a clip, but there is footage of an American with NO TRAINING asking one of Ueshiba's top students to fight him, in the subsequent match, one of the TOP GUYS in Aikido couldn't do a darn thing to a guy with NO TRAINING... very well documented. If I find the clip, all the better of course






there is also the anecdote of Shioda "taking out" one of JFKs bodygurads( I think it was JFK) with Aikido in a "friendly" exhibition of aikido.

[PangQuan]

there is also the anecdote of Shioda "taking out" one of JFKs bodygurads( I think it was JFK) with Aikido in a "friendly" exhibition of aikido.

whats all this?

[tattooedmonk]

Brain cells don't "rejuvinate". They don't even 'regenerate'. That is why people don't get 'smarter' as they get older...lol


They are the only cells in the body that don't grow back. :pshows how much you know.:DYou may be one of many that does not get smarter as they grow older, but many do.:D

[NJM]

shows how much you know.:DYou may be one of many that does not get smarter as they grow older, but many do.:D

You're talking about mylin secretion, not brain cell regeneration.

[tattooedmonk]

You're talking about mylin secretion, not brain cell regeneration.In essence does this not rejuvenate/ regenerate the cell??

[NJM]

In essence does this not rejuvenate/ regenerate the cell??

No, the brain cannot regenerate cells. When some people get older, though, a substance called mylin increases and improves the "conductivity" between neurotransmitters. So the older person is able to use the knowlege he has already gained faster and more effectively, but is not regenerating his brain cells and is not able to GAIN more knowlege faster.

[tattooedmonk]

No, the brain cannot regenerate cells. When some people get older, though, a substance called mylin increases and improves the "conductivity" between neurotransmitters. So the older person is able to use the knowlege he has already gained faster and more effectively, but is not regenerating his brain cells and is not able to GAIN more knowlege faster.Does the myelin not insulate the axon and help restore energy within the cell?? We may be haveing a discussion here in symantics, but I thought that, in essence, that this is regenerating the cell by increasing the amount of energy which is stored and conducted. I am not saying I am wrong or right , I am asking.

[NJM]

Does the myelin not insulate the axon and help restore energy within the cell?? We may be haveing a discussion here in symantics, but I thought that, in essence, that this is regenerating the cell by increasing the amount of energy which is stored and conducted. I am not saying I am wrong or right , I am asking.

By regenerate cells, I didn't mean revitalize individual cells. I mean that if a cell dies, no new cells will grow back to replace it. I'm sure myelin extends the life of a cell and improve how it operates, as I stated above, but it won't cause cell regeneration. If you lose brain cells, no new cells grow to replace them. Usually when someone says "regenerate cells" they mean have new cells grow. I.E. tissue regeneration, regenerating limbs in some creatures like certain lizards, etc.

[tattooedmonk]

Medical science has always presumed that brain cells killed by physical trauma, stroke or other disease cannot regenerate. Victims of such brain injuries faced no hope of growing new cells to fulfill the function of dead cells, leaving their brains permanently impaired.

However, a landmark study in late 1998 by researchers from Sweden and the Salk Institute in La Jolla, Calif., showed for the first time that brain cells in mature humans can regenerate. The research was reported in the November issue of Nature Medicine.

Brain cell regeneration had been observed before in some lower mammals, but not in humans, monkeys or apes. More complex brains, it was thought, would be severely disrupted by new cell growth.

Working with terminal cancer patients ranging in age from 50s to 70s, researchers used a diagnostic agent that labels actively dividing cells. After the patients died, their brains were examined for the presence of the agent, which attaches itself to the DNA of new cells.

New cells were found. Though few in number, the new cells formed in an important part of the brain, the hippocampus, which is involved in learning and memory. The discovery raises hopes for even victims of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases. And it is possible that new cell growth is substantially greater in younger, healthy adults.

Another issue to be resolved is whether the new brain cells will form networks, said Dennis Maiman, MD, professor of neurosurgery at the Medical College of Wisconsin who practices at Froedtert Hospital. For example, could the new brain cells establish networks through the scar tissue that forms following a stroke? And can other parts of the brain regenerate cells, too?

"I think this is very valuable research," Dr. Maiman said. "This is a huge piece of information. The discovery opens the door for the possibilities of future therapies for those who have experienced brain injuries."

One day, the mechanism to regenerate cells may be understood so that the brain can be directed to repair itself with new cells whenever and wherever it suffers trauma.

There was also a series of experiments conducted at Princeton in 2000 that showed the same results


so much for brain cells not regenrating.

[tattooedmonk]

New Nerve Cells
for the Adult Brain

Contrary to dogma, the human brain does produce new nerve cells in adulthood.

Can our newfound capacity lead to better treatments for neurological diseases?

By Gerd Kempermann and Fred H. Gage

Cut your skin, and the wound closes within days. Break a leg, and the fracture will usually mend if the bone is set correctly. Indeed, almost all human tissues can repair themselves to some extent throughout life. Remarkable "stem" cells account for much of this activity. These versatile cells resemble those of a developing embryo in their ability to multiply almost endlessly and to generate not only carbon copies of themselves but also many different kinds of cells. The versions in bone marrow offer a dramatic example. They can give rise to all the cells in the blood: red ones, platelets and a panoply of white types. Other stem cells yield the various constituents of the skin, the liver or the intestinal lining.

The brain of the adult human can sometimes compensate for damage quite well, by making new connections among surviving nerve cells (neurons). But it cannot repair itself, because it lacks the stem cells that would allow for neuronal regeneration. That, anyway, is what most neurobiologists firmly believed until quite recently.

This past November, Peter S. Eriksson of the Sahlgrenska University Hospital in Goteborg, Sweden, one of us (Gage) at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, Calif., and several colleagues published the startling news that the mature human brain does spawn neurons routinely in at least one site— the hippocampus, an area important to memory and learning. (The hippocampus is not where memories are stored, but it helps to form them after receiving input from other brain regions. People with hippocampal damage have difficulty acquiring knowledge yet can recall information learned before their injury.)

The absolute number of new cells is low relative to the total number in the brain. Nevertheless, considered with recent findings in animals, the November discovery raises some tantalising prospects for medicine. Current data suggest that stem cells probably make new neurons in another part of the human brain and also reside, albeit dormantly, in additional locations. Hence, the adult brain, which repairs itself so poorly, might actually harbor great potential for neuronal regeneration. If investigators can learn how to induce existing stem cells to produce useful numbers of functional nerve cells in chosen parts of the brain, that advance could make it possible to ease any number of disorders involving neuronal damage and death—among them Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and disabilities that accompany stroke and trauma.

Although the finding that the mature human brain can generate neurons was surprising, hints had actually appeared for years in studies of other adult mammals. As long ago as 1965, for instance, Joseph Altman and Gopal D. Das of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology had described neuronal production (neurogenesis) in the hippocampus of adult rats—in the precise hippocampal area, known as the dentate gyrus, where it has now been found in human beings.

Early Hints ... and Doubts

Other studies subsequently confirmed Altman and Das's report, but most researchers did not view the data as evidence of significant neurogenesis in adult mammals or as an indication that even the human brain might have some regenerative potential. One reason was that the methods then available could not estimate accurately the number of neurons being born nor prove definitively that the new cells were neurons. Further, the concept of brain stem cells had not yet been introduced. Researchers therefore thought that for new nerve cells to appear, fully mature versions would have to replicate—an unbelievably difficult feat. Scientists also underestimated the relevance of the findings to the human brain in part because no one had yet uncovered clear evidence of neurogenesis in monkeys or apes, which are primates and thus are closer to humans genetically and physiologically than are other mammals.

There matters stood until the mid1980s, when Fernando Nottebohm of the Rockefeller University jarred the field with astonishing results in adult canaries. He discovered that neurogenesis occurred in brain centers responsible for song learning and, moreover, that the process accelerated during the seasons in which the adult birds acquired their songs. Nottebohm and his co-workers also showed that neuron formation in the hippocampus of adult chickadees rose during seasons that placed high demands on the birds' memory system, particularly when the animals had to keep track of increasingly dispersed food storage sites. Nottebohm's dramatic results led to a reawakening of interest in neurogenesis in adult mammals and of course caused investigators to ponder once more whether the mature human brain had any regenerative potential.

Optimism about the possibility of human neurogenesis was shortlived, however. At about the same time, Pasko Rakic and his associates at Yale University pioneered the study of neurogenesis in adult primates. That work, which was well done for its time, failed to find new brain neurons in grown rhesus monkeys.

Logic, too, continued to argue against neuronal birth in the adult human brain. Biologists knew that the extent of neurogenesis had become increasingly restricted throughout evolution, as the brain became more complex. Whereas lizards and other lower animals enjoy massive neuronal regeneration when their brains are damaged, mammals lack that robust response. It seemed reasonable to assume that the addition of neurons to the intricately wired human brain would threaten the orderly flow of signals along established pathways.

Signs that this reasoning might be flawed emerged only a few years ago. First, a team headed by Elizabeth Gould and Bruce S. McEwen of Rockefeller and Eberhard Fuchs of the German Primate Center in Gottingen revealed in 1997 that some neurogenesis occurs in the hippocampus of the primatelike tree shrew. Then, in March 1998, they found the same phenomenon in the marmoset. Marmoset monkeys are evolutionarily more distant from humans than rhesus monkeys are, but they are nonetheless primates.

Cancer Patients Showed the Way

Clearly, the question of whether humans possess a capacity for neuro genesis in adulthood could be resolved only by studying people directly. Yet such studies seemed impossible, because the methods applied to demonstrate new neuron formation in animals did not appear to be transferable to people.

Those techniques vary but usually take advantage of the fact that before cells divide, they duplicate their chromosomes, which enables each daughter cell to receive a full set. In the animal experiments, investigators typically inject subjects with a traceable material (a "marker") that will become integrated only into the DNA of cells preparing to divide. That marker becomes a part of the DNA in the resulting daughter cells and is then inherited by the daughters' daughters and by future descendants of the original dividing cells.

After a while, some of the marked cells differentiate—that is, they specialize, becoming specific kinds of neurons or glia (the other main class of cells in the brain). Having allowed time for differentiation to occur, workers remove the brain and cut it into thin sections. The sections are stained for the presence of neurons and glia and are viewed under a microscope. Cells that retain the marker (a sign of their derivation from the original dividing cells) and also have the anatomic and chemical characteristics of neurons can be assumed to have differentiated into nerve cells after the marker was introduced into the body. Fully differentiated neurons do not divide and cannot integrate the marker; they therefore show no signs of it.

Living humans obviously cannot be examined in this way. That obstacle seemed insurmountable until Eriksson hit on a solution soon after completing a sabbatical with our group at Salk. A clinician, he one day found himself on call with a cancer specialist. As the two chatted, Eriksson learned that the substance we had been using as our marker for dividing cells in animals—bromodeoxyuridine (BrdU)—was coincidentally being given to some terminally ill patients with cancer of the tongue or larynx. These patients were part of a study that injected the compound to monitor tumor growth.

Eriksson realized that if he could obtain the hippocampus of study participants who eventually died, analyses conducted at Salk could identify the neurons and see whether any of them displayed the DNA marker. The presence of BrdU would mean the affected neurons had formed after that substance was delivered. In other words, the study could prove that neurogenesis had occurred, presumably through stem cell proliferation and differentiation, during the patients' adulthood.

Eriksson obtained the patients' consent to investigate their brains after death. Between early 1996 and February 1998, he raced to the hospital and was given brain tissue from five such patients, who had passed away between the ages of 57 and 72. As hoped, all five brains displayed new neurons—specifically those known as granule cells—in the dentate gyrus. These patients donated their brains to this cause, and we owe this proof of adult human neurogenesis to their generosity. (Coincidentally, at about the time this study was published, Gould's and Rakic's groups both reported that nerve cell production does take place in the hippocampus of adult rhesus monkeys.)

[tattooedmonk]

Of course, the mere demonstration of human neurogenesis is not enough. If the ultimate goal is to stimulate controlled neuronal regeneration in ailing human brains, scientists will want to determine the locations of stem cells capable of evolving into neurons. They will also need to be sure that neurons derived from such cells will be functional and able to send and receive messages appropriately. Fortunately, the discovery that neurogenesis in the rodent hippocampus does, after all, mirror activity in the human brain means that investigators can return to studies in rats and mice to seek clues.

Past work in rodents has revealed that some neurogenesis occurs throughout life not only in the hippocampus but in the brain's olfactory system. Stem cells also reside in such brain regions as the septum (involved in emotion and learning) and the striatum (involved in fine-tuning motor activity) and in the spinal cord. The cells outside the hippocampus and olfactory system do not appear to produce new neurons under normal conditions, though

If the front part of the animal's brain were transparent, the dentate gyrus portion of the hippocampus would be seen partly as a thin, dark layer, roughly the shape of a sideways V. This V consists of the cell bodies of granule neurons—the globular parts that contain the nucleus. An adjacent layer inside the V is called the hilus. It is composed primarily of the axons, or long signal-carrying projections, through which granule cells relay signals to a hippocampal relay station known as CA3.

The stem cells that give rise to newly born granule cells sit at the boundary of the dentate gyrus and the hilus. These cells divide continuously. Many of the progeny are exactly like their parents, and a good number apparently die soon after being produced. But some migrate deeper into the granule cell layer and assume the appearance of the surrounding granule cells, complete with multiple projections for receiving and sending signals. They also extend their axons along the same tracts used by their already established neighbors

The stem cells that yield new neurons in the olfactory system line the walls of fluid-filled brain cavities known as lateral ventricles. Arturo Alvarez-Buylla of Rockefeller and his co-workers have demonstrated that certain descendants of these stem cells migrate a good distance into the olfactorv bulb where they take on the characteristic features of neurons in that area.

Given that the new neurons in both brain regions look like their earlier-born counterparts, chances are good that they behave like those neurons. But how might this surmise be proved? Studies analyzing the effects of environment on brain anatomy and learning have been instructive.

In the early 1960s Mark R. Rosenzweig and his colleagues at the University of California at Berkeley removed rodents from their standard, rather spartan laboratory conditions and put them into an enriched environment, where they luxuriated in very large cages and shared the company of many other rodents.

They could also explore their surroundings (which were continually changed by the caretakers), take spins in running wheels and play with a variety of toys.

Rosenzweig's group and later that of William T. Greenough of the University of Illinois described amazing consequences of living under such improved conditions. Relative to animals kept in standard cages, those enjoying the high life ended up with slightly heavier brains, greater thickness in certain brain structures, differences in the levels of some neurotransmitters (the molecules that carry stimulatory or inhibitory messages from one neuron to another), more connections between nerve cells and increased branching of neuronal projections. Moreover, they performed better on learning tests; for instance, they were more successful at learning to navigate mazes.

Together the various results implied that the environmental changes had led to improved brain function. Since then, neurobiologists have become convinced that enriching the environment of mature rodents influences brain wiring in ways that enhance brainpower. For years, however, they dismissed the notion that the production of new nerve cells in the adult brain could contribute to such improvements, even though Altman suggested as early as 1964 that such a process should be considered.

New findings have now confirmed that environmental manipulations do affect adult neurogenesis. Applying technology not available in the 1960s, our group demonstrated in 1997 that adult mice given enriched living conditions grew 60 percent more new granule cells in the dentate gyrus than did genetically identical control animals. They also did better on a learning task that involved finding their way out of a pool of water. Enrichment even enhanced neurogenesis and learning performance in very old mice, which have a base rate of neuronal production much lower than that in younger adults.

We do not claim that the new neurons are solely responsible for the behavioral improvements, because changes in wiring configurations and in the chemical microenvironment in the involved brain areas surely play an important part. On the other hand, it would be very surprising if such a dramatic jump in neuron formation, as well as the preservation of adult neurogenesis throughout evolution, served no function.

[tattooedmonk]

Hunt for Controls

If, as we suspect, the neurons born routinely in the brain of the adult human are functional, then an understanding of the controls on their formation could eventually teach neurobiologists how to prompt such neuronal generation where it is needed. Aside from environmental enrichment, various other factors that influence neurogenesis have been identified in animal studies over the past several years.

These results will make the most sense if readers recall that neurogenesis has many steps—from stem cell proliferation, to selected survival of some progeny, to migration and differentiation. It turns out that factors influencing one step along the way may not affect others. An increase in stem cell proliferation can yield a net rise in new neurons if the rates of daughter cell survival and differentiation remain constant, but the neuronal number may not rise if the survival and differentiation rates change in opposite directions. Similarly, neurons will be added if proliferation stays constant but survival and differentiation increase.

Among the regulatory influences that have been uncovered are some that usually seem to discourage neurogenesis. In the past few years, for example, Gould and McEwen have reported that certain everyday inputs into the dentate gyrus may actually keep a lid on nerve cell production. Specifically, neurotransmitters that stimulate granule cells to fire will also inhibit stem cell proliferation in the hippocampus. High levels of glucocorticoid hormones in the blood inhibit adult neurogenesis as well.

Given these findings, it is perhaps no surprise that the team has shown stress to reduce stem cell proliferation in the same region. Stress leads to the release of excitatory neurotransmitters in the brain and to the secretion of glucocorticoid hormones from the adrenals. Understanding inhibition is important for learning how to overcome it. But that aspect of the picture is still far from clear. For instance, the discovery that extreme levels of excitatory transmitters and of certain hormones can constrain neurogenesis does not necessarily mean that lower levels are detrimental; in fact, they may be helpful. As for factors that promote hippocampal neurogenesis, we and others have been trying to identify which features of an enriched environment have the strongest effect. With her associates, Gould, now at Princeton University, has shown recently that participation in a learning task, even in the absence of enriched living, enhances the survival of the cells generated by stem cell division, resulting in a net elevation in the number of new neurons.

Meanwhile our group compared neurogenesis in two groups of mice kept in standard cages, one with a running wheel and one without. The mice having unlimited access to the wheels made heavy use of the opportunity and ended up with twice as many new nerve cells as their sedentary counterparts did, a figure comparable to that found in mice placed in an enriched environment. In the runners, a higher rate of stem cell division was involved in the final effect, whereas it played no role in the gains of the enriched-living group. In the latter case (as in Gould's study), stimulating conditions apparently promoted survival of stem cell progeny, so that more of those cells lived to become neurons. This finding highlights once again that the processes regulating neurogenesis in adults are complex and occur on several levels.

Certain molecules are known to influence neurogenesis. We and our co-workers have evaluated epidermal growth factor and fibroblast growth factor, which despite their names have been shown to affect nerve cell development in cell cultures. With H. George Kuhn of Salk and Jurgen Winkler of the University of California at San Diego, we delivered these compounds into the lateral ventricles of adult rats, where they evoked striking proliferation by the resident stem cells. Epidermal growth factor favored differentiation of the resulting cells into glia in the olfactory bulb, but fibroblast growth factor promoted neuronal production.

Interestingly, the induction of certain pathological conditions, such as epileptic seizures or stroke, in adult animals can evoke dramatic stem cell division and even neurogenesis. Whether the brain can make use of this response to replace needed neurons is not known. In the case of the seizures, aberrant connections formed by newborn neurons may be part of the problem. The stem cell division and neurogenesis are more evidence that the brain harbors potential for self-repair. The question is, why does that potential usually go unused?

In the experiments discussed so far, we and others examined regulatory events by holding genes constant: we observed the neurological responses of genetically identical (inbred) animals to different inputs. Another way to uncover controls on neurogenesis is to hold the environment constant and compare genes in strains of animals that differ innately in their rates of neuron production. Presumably, the genes that vary include those affecting the development of new nerve cells. In a similar approach, researchers can compare the genes active in brain regions that display neurogenesis and in brain regions that do not. Genetic studies are under way.

Genes serve as the blueprints for proteins, which in turn carry out the bulk of cellular activities, such as inducing cell division, migration or differentiation. Therefore, if the genes participating in neuronal generation can be identified, investigators should be able to discover their protein products and to tease out the precise contributions of the genes and their proteins to neurogenesis.

Repairing the Brain

With continued diligence, scientists may eventually be able to trace the molecular cascades that lead from a specific stimulus, be it an environmental cue or some internal event, to particular alterations in genetic activity and, in turn, to rises or falls in neurogenesis. Then they will have much of the information needed to induce neuronal regeneration at will. Such a therapeutic approach could involve administration of key regulatory molecules or other pharmacological agents, delivery of gene therapy to supply helpful molecules, transplantation of stem cells, modulation of environmental or cognitive stimuli, alterations in physical activity, or some combination of these factors.

Compilation of such techniques could take decades. Once collected, though, they might be applied in several ways. They might provide some level of repair, both in brain areas known to manifest some neurogenesis and in sites where stem cells exist but are normally quiescent. Doctors might also be able to stimulate stem cells to migrate into areas where they usually do not go and to mature into the specific kinds of nerve cells required by a given patient. A1though the new cells would not regrow whole brain parts or restore lost memories, they could, for example, manufacture valuable amounts of dopamine (the neurotransmitter whose depletion is responsible for the symptoms of Parkinson's disease) or other substances.

Research in related areas of science will contribute to the search for these advanced therapeutic approaches. For instance, several laboratories have learned to culture what are called human embryonic stem cells—highly versatile cells, derived from early embryos, that are capable of giving rise to virtually any cell type in the human body. One day it might be possible to prod these embryonic stem cells into generating offspring that are committed to becoming a selected type of neuron. Such cells might then be transplanted into damaged sites to replenish lost nerve cells [see "Embryonic Stem Cells for Medicine," by Roger A. Pedersen; SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, April].

Transplants, of course, may be rejected by a recipient's immune system. Scientists are exploring many ways around that problem. One solution could be to harvest stem cells from the brains of the affected patients themselves and to manipulate that material instead of stem cells from a donor. Researchers have already devised relatively noninvasive means of extracting such brain cells from patients.

These medical applications are admittedly goals and are nowhere close to reality at the moment. Indeed, the challenges ahead are huge. Notably, at one point or another analyses of the controls on neurogenesis and of proposed therapies for brain disorders will have to move from rodents to people. To study humans without interfering with their health, researchers will have to make use of extremely clever protocols, such as ones involving the noninvasive imaging techniques known as functional magnetic resonance Imaging or positron emission tomography. Further, we will have to develop safeguards ensuring that neurons stimulated to form in the human brain (or transplanted into it) will do just what we want them to do and will not interfere with normal brain function. Nevertheless, the expected benefits of unlocking the brain's regenerative potential justify all the effort that will be required.

[tattooedmonk]

The Authors

GERD KEMPERMANN and FRED H. GAGE have worked together since 1995, when Kempermann began a three-year term as a postdoctoral fellow in Gage's laboratory at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, Calif. Kempermann, who holds a medical degree from the University of Freiburg in Germany, is now a neurology resident at the University of Regensburg. Gage has been a professor in the Laboratory of Genetics at Salk since 1995 and a professor in the department of neurosciences at the University of California, San Diego, since 1988. He earned his doctorate in neurobiology from Johns Hopkins University in 1976 and was an associate professor of histology at Lund University in Sweden before moving to California.

Further Reading

MORE HIPPOCAMPAL NEURONS IN ADULT MICE LIVING IN AN ENRICHED ENVIRONMENT. Gerd Kempermann, H. George Kuhn and Fred H. Gage in Nature, Vol. 386, pages 493-495; April 3, 1997.

NEUROGENESIS IN THE ADULT HUMAN HIPPOCAMPUS. Peter S. Eriksson et al. in Nature Medicine, Vol. 4, No. 11, pages 1313-1317; November 1998.

LEARNING ENHANCES ADULT NEUROGENESIS IN THE HIPPOCAMPAL FORMATION. Elizabeth Gould et al. in Nature Neuroscience, Vol. 2, No. 3, pages 260-265; March 1999.

RUNNING INCREASES CELL PROLIFERATION AND NEUROGENESIS TN THE ADULT MOUSE DENTATE GYRUS. Henriette van Praag et al. in Nature Neuroscience, Vol. 2, No. 3, pages 266-270; March 1999.

[golden arhat]

Lolllllllllllll

[BruceSteveRoy]

that was awesome.

[NJM]

None of those sources talk about regenerating cells in the same area they were lost or at all, read explicitly. One dealt with the hippocampus spawning new cells and not the other parts of the brain, one dealt only with non-humans, and nother just stated they could be compensated for with improved connections. By the way, tattoed monk,


LEARN NOT TO BE A FORUM NOOB AND USE THE MOTHER****ING EDIT BUTTON!

[Water Dragon]

Aikido has the "potential" to be a real martial art. Unfortunately most schools today teach spiritual nonsense that has no real practical value. Like lkfmdc stated, its mostly based on unrealistic attacks and compliance.


How can you say the spiritual is nonsense or has no practical value? The spiritual may have a lot MORE value than the martial in this day and age.

[tattooedmonk]

None of those sources talk about regenerating cells in the same area they were lost or at all, read explicitly. One dealt with the hippocampus spawning new cells and not the other parts of the brain, one dealt only with non-humans, and nother just stated they could be compensated for with improved connections. By the way, tattoed monk,


LEARN NOT TO BE A FORUM NOOB AND USE THE MOTHER****ING EDIT BUTTON!
actually if you read the one from Princeton in 2000 they say that the only place they did not regenerate was in the visual part of the brain. Why do I care abuut the editing button this thread has gone to **** because of guys like you anyway.

[hung-le]

Obviously, and I don't mean this an insult, but you aren't getting my argument here

Aikido is not a fighting art.

I’m not sure what you are implying.. Certainly you can’t be saying that all Aikido is crap… Aikido has some serious projection throws that somehow you have come to believe only entail the opponent moving (through some fake cooperation ...lol.... …

If he doesn’t move I make him move! (through Atemi waza..... If he still doesn’t move then I move…Then it becomes Martial NFL time…

There is another side of Aikido that apparently you haven’t seen and it evolves getting the opponent to “cooperate” through actual Atemi waza.. I.e. Setting up the Akido specific Nage, Katame, Shime and Kansetsu techniques…through real striking and kicking…

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that…. That’s how Akido works against someone skilled. To say that it can’t or doesn’t happen is like saying no one gets hit in a fight….REDICULIOUS bull****to crap!……

Also isn’t this how Judo or Jujistsu works too? I don’t see anyone dumb enough to think they can walk up to someone and just pull a Koshi guruma without smashing the guys face with some sort of atemi


Sensei Nikura (who trained under Ueshiba himself) … of Sterling Heights, Michigan has one BAD ASS class. Most of them are Detroit cops and there usually blood or vomit on the mat after each practice. Their Aikido is highly effective and very realistic. It has to be!!!!! They are ****ing Detroit cops! Their lives depend on it … Stop by….. Snap your belt and yell “OSE!” See what happens next…..


Judo, Jujitsu and Aikido are all from the same cloth…yet have specific techniques unique to their arts…they all are effective


Just so you don’t get the idea I’m full of crap……..Before that, I trained (in other arts as well....) in Koei Kan Karate ( A mixture of Karate and Jujitsu) under the North American Technical instructor Sensei Frost. 5th Dan. One tuff mean cuss! “Said respectfully on my part) …….. Since its conception …..long before the MMA craze… Koei Kan Karate has been doing full contact in bogo armor to include the ground game …. Talk about a bunch of maniacs who love to fight! Picture a dark hole in the wall dojo with blood stains on just about every square inch of the mat, the smell of sweat so pungent in burns your nostrils and an all steel Makiwara in the corner. ”*****’s need not apply” Not the standard run of the mill Mcdojo……… I also roll at Troy Judo academy and the Farmington Judo and Jujitsu club, I’ve even worked out with Olympic judoka ( and could hang just fine…


I’m telling you my experience because I often pull off Aikido techniques against expert Judo and Jujitsuka in randori . That said I have to be careful because of the unknown factor (as you SHOULD know …not knowing the direction or type of throw can result in a serious slam…which tends to **** people off…..Sport Judo doesn’t allow for some of the Aikido techniques…..and I found Jujitsuka are just as susceptible to Aikido waza..(all of them……in reference to their skill level of course ..)


Akido if studied correctly is one hell of a martial art Of course I’ll admit there are some lame ass akido dojo out there…but that can be said of just about every art


Certainly Ikfmdc you can't be saying all Aikido is crap are you?

[Mr Punch]

Obviously, and I don't mean this an insult, but you aren't getting my argument hereYou're right - I wasn't. Go back and look at that little exchange.

I said there is good and bad aikido.
I then said (in response to your part of your post about JJ being irrelevant to modern training/fighting) that JJJ still produces some good fighters.

You said, there was one of Ueshiba's top guys who got schooled by an untrained American guy... which apart from being totally anecdotal without even so much as a name, it's alsoa compete non-sequitur.


Aikido is not a fighting art.Agreed, mostly.
Any attempt to make it so is just "reversion" to older Aikijujitsu, ie older classical jujitsu, but I'll get to that in a minuteStrongly disagree, as with the statement 'any attempt to make CMA a fighting art is just 'reversion' to kickboxing or MMA'. There are people who can roll/spar uncooperatively with aikido with atemi and weally wuff thwows (with no protection other than cup/mouthguard - but then that's the same with kyokushin)... it looks like MMA (and of course most of them crosstrain - but again that's the same as anyone sensible in CMA these days) with a strong semblance to judo/jujutsu in MMA.

As for vid, Japan has a population of about 126 million, with good fighters coming from many places, and no, while I've never seen an aikidoka in MMA before (and I will still stick by the statement that most aikidoka are not interested - it's against the basic tenets - and if you say that's BS, fair enough, but I will say I've never met anyone as competetive over anything even in daily life as Americans, and while I'm not judging that position, I don't think that many Americans I've met genuinely understand the opposite position) I can honestly say that I reckon about 125,999,000 people in Japan are not interested in videoing any aspect of their daily life to prove it to unknown people on the internet.


I honestly wished I remembered all the details because it would make finding the clip a lot easier. American film crew was filming Ueshiba and one of his top guys, it may even be the founder of Tomiki Aikido but dont' quote me, I am NOT sureI'd really like to see it, or even, if there is no vid available (:eek: aaaaaargh!) read about it. BTW the founder of Tomiki was Tomiki, if you're still looking. It still deosn't really seem relevant - and if it was Tomiki he was also a high level judoka if I remember rightly.


But when you start doing randori, by definition you are not doing classical jujitsu. Classical jujitsu died after the police college, that's just a point of factNo, that's an opinion. And one that I disagree with. Classical jujutsu evolved after the Police College challenge. Boxing started with upright stances, sweeps, and throws, no rounds, punches below the belt, little bobbing or weaving, vertical fists and just wrapping or no gloves at all: would you say 'Boxing died after the Marquis of Queensbury rules came in'?!


there are only two "models", those that work and those that don't. Without randori, a martial art is destined for failure. With randori, what it practices and how it practices will of course changeAgreed, with the reservation indictaed next:


Aikido has no randori. Nonsense. Even all the soft aiki schools have randori (ie people attacking with unprescribed attacks), and while they believe it's real, they have little concept of resistance.


It's "signature moves" require unrealistic attacks and compliant partners.

If you show me a guy doing o-soto gar into juji gatame, I don't care if his hakama says "Aikido", it is not aikido, it isn't even Aikijujitsu, it is a derivative of Judo, ie a derivative of randoriStrongly disagree. Its signature moves require atemi.
And if I do iriminage and bring my lead leg back to maintain my own stance and continue with the kuzushi on my opponent, it looks like a judo throw (seen it many times, but don't know the term - may be osoto gari, is that the outer leg reap thing?)... YOU don't know the difference. Juji gatame isn't in aikido, but it was definitely in daito-ryu, so again, if that reversion means it's not aiki I think you're missing the point.

Do you know what 'aiki' means? To most modern aikido people who subscribe to postwar Ueshiba and Kisshomaru, it means the gag about harmonizing with the energy of the opponent and the universe. Nice, if that's what they want to believe.

In classical aiki it roughly means 'balance'/'equilibrium', the point being that that is what you are supposed to disrupt by kamae/atemi/waza leading to kuzushi.

So, I'm not going to say that an aikidoka doing a juji gatame is still doing aikido, but I will say it fits in perfectly with aiki.

[Mr Punch]

By the way, tattoed monk...
STFU noob.

If you don't want to read it don't read it.

And quit with the annoying big letters.

[Mr Punch]

How can you say the spiritual is nonsense or has no practical value? The spiritual may have a lot MORE value than the martial in this day and age.Very good point, except that for most aikidoka I've met (which is a hell of a lot) their spirituality has taken the form of an unbearable smugness in the higher power of belief... that they can beat everyone but they would never show it, because that wouldn't be spiritual! :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that…. LOL! Practise that often do you? :rolleyes:

You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...).

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?


Most of them are Detroit cops and there usually blood or vomit on the mat after each practice. :rolleyes:

[hung-le]

LOL! Practise that often do you? :rolleyes:

You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...).

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?

:rolleyes:

wow you must be a grade A AZZhole! no wonder guys are taking shots at you...


I was in on your side….

You do Aikido?…Hmmmmm? I wonder...... When is the last time someone did a snap down and spun you ( as in Katatetori Kaiten -Nage) and when you popped back up hit you with an Irimi Nage from the reverse direction?

pretty standard stuff....

….Or you telling me that never has happened…

Now its my turn to roll my eyes

I think u are the NOOOB!


:rolleyes:

same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up….

Randori???? ….you don’t sound like your doing it….

[Mr Punch]

wow you must be a grade A AZZhole! no wonder guys are taking shots at you...Who's taking shots at me? Chill pal. It's just a difference of opinion.


I was in on your side….Don't need it, you're making 'my side' look like morons... like I said - not calling you a moron, just maybe your explanations need some sharpening up.


You do Aikido?…Hmmmmm? Currently, no, not regularly, but I've been doing aiki/jutsu since 90. Started under one of the UK's first direct students (and dan grades) of Abbe and Nakazono (both as I'm sure you know Ueshiba's students) among others, and have also trained with Tada (another one of Ueshia's direct students) in Tokyo, and a direct inside student of daito-ryu's Sagawa and Kimura. I've also used (and failed to use) aiki principles and some techs full-contact full speed in MMA sparring, something I doubt you have, hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.


I wonder...... When is the last time someone did a snap down and spun you ( as in Katatetori Kaiten -Nage) and when you popped back up hit you with an Irimi Nage from the reverse direction?If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki. Go on, you won't break them, I promise! :D

Assuming from your explanation that every time you've kicked someone in the nuts they've doubled over and you've been able to irimi them as they come back up, I'd have to assume:

1) you've never/very rarely kicked someone in the nuts,
2) you've never done this in the dojo other than by simulation... 'OK, so now I kick you in the nuts, and you double over... OK, not like that, double over this way, then you stand up in this direction...'
3) you can't do kaiten-nage, or have never done a straight-through kaiten-nage on a resisting person

So, in answer to your question, the last time somebody did that to me was... eight years ago in a compliant dojo setting. Since then I've been testing out my aiki in live practice, and when somebody does anything resembling kaitenage on me and doesnt ram my head straight down into the mat, I double-leg them, or get them with an outside leg sweep, or hit them with what you may know as a sotogawa iriminage furi-uchikomi.


pretty standard stuff....

….Or you telling me that never has happened…

Now its my turn to roll my eyes

I think u are the NOOOB!You're insulting me without answering my questions. Doesn't work!


same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up…LOL, you've never popped anyone in the groin for real have you? Admit it. If you don't admit it, you'll look an ass for a long time: if you do you can just look an ass for a short time!

1) They don't usually just crumple immediately and loosely as your plaything.
2) If they do, they don't just happily stand back up again.
3) If they do, your best bet is a) on the street - to run/**** them up, or b) in training - apologize, or c) in the ring - hope the ref hasn't seen it and continue beating them or take them down and submit them... iriminage would be a waste of energy.


Randori???? ….you don’t sound like your doing it….Sounds like you ain't either... spending too much time bleeding and puking on the mat! :rolleyes: :D

Or more accurately, sounds like you're doig typical aiki-fantasists' randori.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, still got a couple of questions for you, champ.
Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face?... :rolleyes:Let's add, when was the last time you kicked somebody for real in the nuts, and what happened next?

D@mn... aikidoka fighting on the net - it's like watching two retards trying to **** a doorknob. :D

[Knifefighter]

There is another side of Aikido that apparently you haven’t seen and it evolves getting the opponent to “cooperate” through actual Atemi waza.. I.e. Setting up the Akido specific Nage, Katame, Shime and Kansetsu techniques…through real striking and kicking…

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that…. That’s how Akido works against someone skilled. To say that it can’t or doesn’t happen is like saying no one gets hit in a fight….REDICULIOUS bull****to crap!……

Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.

[Knifefighter]

YThere are people who can roll/spar uncooperatively with aikido with atemi and weally wuff thwows (with no protection other than cup/mouthguard - but then that's the same with kyokushin)... it looks like MMA (and of course most of them crosstrain - but again that's the same as anyone sensible in CMA these days) with a strong semblance to judo/jujutsu in MMA.

Mr. Punch-
Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?

[Knifefighter]

same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up….

Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.

[WinterPalm]

Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.

I've been kicked in the groin very hard before. I've kicked guys in sparring very hard in the groin. The usual reaction is to cower away bent over. Assuming that, we can simulate that in training and go from there. It isn't rocket science. Most of the stuff that good teachers do that is considered deadly is not made up or guessed at...somebody has done these things or had them done to them and seen the outcome and used that as a training template. I have three examples, myself, and two training partners, of what happens when getting sacked hard. Each time it is basically the same but sometimes the guy falls over.

[Knifefighter]

I've been kicked in the groin very hard before. I've kicked guys in sparring very hard in the groin. The usual reaction is to cower away bent over. Assuming that, we can simulate that in training and go from there. It isn't rocket science. Most of the stuff that good teachers do that is considered deadly is not made up or guessed at...somebody has done these things or had them done to them and seen the outcome and used that as a training template. I have three examples, myself, and two training partners, of what happens when getting sacked hard. Each time it is basically the same but sometimes the guy falls over.

I think we have already that what you consider effective training and what I consider effective training are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch-
Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?No I haven't.

I have met pockets of people from some dojo who practise all out in free spaces. Plus some of the guys in MMA schools are basically rolling using JJJ.

My 'traditional' koryu school (offshoot of daitoryu) do full contact sparring with pads, gloves etc.

[Mr Punch]

Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.That's exactly what I was saying.

And sure, you could imitate it, but it's still not going to be with real energy, as we can get from hung-le's mistaken assumption that the opp is just going to stand up straight again.

[firepalm]

lkfmdc said

I think you're a fruit loop and a great example of everything that is wrong with CMA today.....


Just checked in & had to say that was funny as hell! :eek:

[Water Dragon]

Very good point, except that for most aikidoka I've met (which is a hell of a lot) their spirituality has taken the form of an unbearable smugness in the higher power of belief... that they can beat everyone but they would never show it, because that wouldn't be spiritual! :rolleyes:


Spirituality and fighting ability rarely coincide. That doesn't mean martial arts aren't worth studying for spiritual purpose. You simply need to define your goal.

ps, I do know the tyoe you're talking about, and I don'e like em either. But, they tend to be a minority, even if a vocal minority of people who do ma.

[hung-le]

[QUOTE]Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.


Yep the first time I did Randori with these fellows I was floored, I took a full shot to the face, no gloves and the guy was on the run. The attacks they use are real...

Difference: You have had to have seen Aikido Randori its not your normal "one on one" sparring match. Just picture a bunch of seroius Aikidoka (thier cops for pete's sake) really going at it...for reality sakes...They don't have the option of faking it... Hope that makes sense...






Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.

No and No and No It has happened...Let someone run up on you in randori and kick you in the groin....if you don't double over...you are the Man! and when you pop back up and your not staring at the ceiling.."you really are the man!

However, it was more of a (apparently bad) generalization to show some people how Aikido does work...
make sense..Hope so you don't seem the type to play Bullshido word games....


Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?

Although this wasn’t directed at me.

I listed some Judo and Jujitsu dojo that I workout at.
(it was an attempt to imply that yes I have been in environments where the Tori and the Uki have gone at it full contact (by full contact, I mean full throttle rolling, no shots…but I find throwing shots to be more geared towards Aikido) and yes I have pulled Aikido specific techniques.. which at times have gotten my azz chewed out. (IT was explained we are not doing Aikido here!!!!…lol….

[hung-le]

Don't need it, you're making 'my side' look like morons... like I said - not calling you a moron, just maybe your explanations need some sharpening up.

Currently, no, not regularly, but I've been doing aiki/jutsu since 90. Started under one of the UK's first direct students (and dan grades) of Abbe and Nakazono (both as I'm sure you know Ueshiba's students) among others, and have also trained with Tada (another one of Ueshia's direct students) in Tokyo, and a direct inside student of daito-ryu's Sagawa and Kimura. I've also used (and failed to use) aiki principles and some techs full-contact full speed in MMA sparring, something I doubt you have, hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.


What is this the word game? what do you think happens when someone cracks you in the face then kick you in the jimmies....?





If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki. Go on, you won't break them, I promise! :D


O my God!!! STFU! Here you go acting like a ****!~ Noob!




Assuming from your explanation that every time you've kicked someone in the nuts they've doubled over and you've been able to irimi them as they come back up, I'd have to assume:

Tried to make an azz of me and in the process made one yourself.

Who said doubling over was always a standard response.....Quit playing some Byullshido......cheap internet BS word game....


1) you've never/very rarely kicked someone in the nuts,

LOl.....stupid


2) you've never done this in the dojo other than by simulation... 'OK, so now I kick you in the nuts, and you double over... OK, not like that, double over this way, then you stand up in this direction...'

you need to get out more...


3) you can't do kaiten-nage, or have never done a straight-through kaiten-nage on a resisting person

yep...this tells me a lot of your skill level....



You're insulting me without answering my questions.

why not? your full of it




Sounds like you ain't either... spending too much time bleeding and puking on the mat! :rolleyes: :D

I gave the names and places I work out..stop by snap that belt and yell OSE! see what happens.... anything else you have to say I'm not listening......

It's been my experience that people who do Aiki Daitoryu do it cause they can't handle Aikido... Your living up to others that I know.....great job keep up the good work

[Knifefighter]

Yep the first time I did Randori with these fellows I was floored, I took a full shot to the face, no gloves and the guy was on the run. The attacks they use are real...
Difference: You have had to have seen Aikido Randori its not your normal "one on one" sparring match. Just picture a bunch of seroius Aikidoka (thier cops for pete's sake) really going at it...for reality sakes...They don't have the option of faking it... Hope that makes sense...

What school is this?

[Mr Punch]

you're not answering any of my questions, just b!tching with ad hominem. i've told you my background, an d my reasoning behind what i say, you've come back with bs. you cant hold a conversation : you're an irrational bs-ing ass.

fair enough.

one last thing: you dont know anyone who does daito ryu because there arent any in the US... by all means tell me who you've trained with.

pr!ck.

[Mr Punch]

What school is this?and is that the school that's practising full contact nutshots? d@mn, knife, you don't wanna go there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I thought this thread would be a video posting of an aikido guy vs. a bagua guy. Figured one guy would just stand there waiting to be grabbed, then hold hands and fall down, while the other dude would be walking in an endless circle.

I'm disappointed.

[hung-le]

What school is this?

Aikido-Yoshokai Detroit

17609 Livernois Ave
Detroit, MI
48221
Phone: (313) 438-2770

I came from a Koei Kan karate Dojo which is about as tuff as it gets…. these guys can fight

I'm not into is all the Ki metaphysics that they do (although….they don’t really focus on it ...basically I show up during the day practice with the law (who ignore all that….) then jet..


I think it’s important that the focus is on Aikido and its martial viability. People here tend to come from the premise that “its only effective if it’s used in MMA” is correct most of the time…….but at the same time not really spot on… What’s more real? Fighting in a MMA bout or fighting an assailant on the street (as most cops do on a day to day bases…) The guys I practice with, although don’t do MMA they train their Aikido with the same intensity.

Institute a high grade of realism into any art and one learns to be effective. To deny that Aikido is the same as any other art doesn’t makes sense. Granted we do have a lot of judo and jujitsu in what we do…(which probably plays into Ikfmdc argument…yet I don’t draw a strong distinction between Judo, Jujitsu or Aikido I do them all…I prefer Aikido though…One Ryu focuses on Nage, one focuses on Kansetu and one Ai Nage

[hung-le]

you're not answering any of my questions, just b!tching with ad hominem. i've told you my background, an d my reasoning behind what i say, you've come back with bs. you cant hold a conversation : you're an irrational bs-ing ass.

fair enough.

one last thing: you dont know anyone who does daito ryu because there arent any in the US... by all means tell me who you've trained with.

pr!ck.


I’m not answering your questions ….Why? Why in the **** would I entertain you Bullshido crap mentality? Why.....?

I came to your defense and you started on me...Then you try to lecture to me on what technique does what…Lol and continue to play word games... cause I said I’ve taken a shot to the groin during randori and it resulted in me getting hammered by a irimi nage.
All of a sudden that makes me some sort of BS Internet troll?????


…STFU! You blowing way to much hot air at this site and your getting sillier the more this goes on….just STFU! can you?

[Mr Punch]

hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.What has happened when you've kicked someone in the nuts? Simple question. No Bullshido word games (whatever they may be - I have about 11 posts on Bullshido).

Have you ever kicked someone full on in the nuts?
No Bullshido word games: it's a yes/no answer.

What happened? No Bullshido word games.


If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki.Which part of this did you disagree with? I'm open to discussion.

[mawali]

I do see parallels between baquazhang and aikido but modern practitioners will never measure up to the MMA crosstrained crowd. A certain degree of cooperation is needed at th beginning for both baqua and aikido but it may appear people do not get beyond taht stage of training.

Why do I use MMA as a scale? Because anyone with physical conditioning, who can hit hard and throw hard can prevail against secret or lineage trainingso you do not have to pay extra for what you already possess! Hey, lineage is expensive!
Resistance is needed to develop the attack pattern and respond so if you meet a real person, you can at least run!

[Mr Punch]

I’m not answering your questions ….Why? Why in the **** would I entertain you Bullshido crap mentality? Why.....?because it might make you look like you knew what you were talking about? search me. looks like you need credibility.


I came to your defense and you started on me...I told you i didn't need any defence: nobody was attacking me. and i didnt start on you, i asked you some qestions... er, which you still haven't answered, despite my having answered yours.


cause I said I’ve taken a shot to the groin during randori and it resulted in me getting hammered by a irimi nage.
All of a sudden that makes me some sort of BS Internet troll?????
i didnt say you were a troll, and i didnt mention bs until you'd attacked me ad hominem several times.

you didnt say you'd taken a shot to the groin, that's why i was asking clarification on your groin shot experience.


…STFU! You blowing way to much hot air at this site and your getting sillier the more this goes on….just STFU! can you?

you appear to be quite hysterical. try sucking on a tittie (if your mum will let you).

[greendragon]

O Sensei probably witnessed some bagua but not trained in it. Circular movements are a natural conclusion when following nature (physics).
BTW, if aikido engaged in 'real fighting', the participants would have broken limbs. The hokey attacks in demos are just training exercises derived fron the sword art, many movements are based on sword cuts. Give a quickly trained MMA fighter a sword or a weapon to fight with LOL !! Aikido does work best when the fighter has trained in the striking arts as well. O.K. now you can flame away, but please, contemplate your own intent.

[hung-le]

because it might make you look like you knew what you were talking about? search me. looks like you need credibility.

Credibility from who? You? hahaha.....again spoken like someone who exsist in the bull****to world....lol:rolleyes:

This is the Internet dik brain.... I don't come here to seek your approval.....lol...If anything I come here to F#%k with sad sack Bitzches like you ....who need to get gratification through interaction on on a news group like this....lol


I told you i didn't need any defence: nobody was attacking me. and i didnt start on you, i asked you some qestions... er, which you still haven't answered, despite my having answered yours.

I guess your ignoramus comments clouded the issue I've done forgot what the stupid question was....as if I couldn't answer the question (which you know I could if it ammused me....yet it doesn't ...because you have the notion that...all of a sudden that's cast doubht about who I am....again more bull****to internet word game mentality.......So A typical ....


i didnt say you were a troll, and i didnt mention bs until you'd attacked me ad hominem several times.

hmmmmm didn't you post this....
You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...)

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?

Sounds like a slam to me......and proof? what more proof do you want I stated the many places I workout at and whom my teachers are.... what do you want? A vid of me getting beat down? lol.....




you appear to be quite hysterical. try sucking on a tittie (if your mum will let you).[/QUOTE]

lol... .............. when you have to resort to comment like "*****" and the above.....lol.... ......I'm done enjoying myself.. time for my weekend....

[SaintSage]

"Ignoramus" is a noun. You used it as an adjective.

[Black Jack II]

Most aikidoka love the koolaid....it tastes good and goes down smooth.

Is there good aikido, I guess on some planet filled with Brianna Bank clones and free Viagra there may be, but to say its a fighting art for practical SD purposes, whose training prepares one in a realistic manner, well.............I guess if a senile Japenese guy made people believe so and Steven Segal made it look good in the movies than it must be so.

[Mr Punch]

You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...).Harsh, but fair I feel. I didn't say you were an idiot, I gave you plenty of chance to not look like one, but unfortunately, everything you say is making you look more and more stoopid.

You say you've forgotten my questions: let me help with a little recap.

1) Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? (You should be able to answer this without hysterics, it's really simple and not insulting in any way)

2) ...perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? (Let me rephrase this for the martially challenged/punch drunk:)

a) Have you ever stunned anybody by hitting them in the face?
b) What happened? Was it like a TKO where they are staggering around like a zombie? Please describe it and what happened next (ie what tech you did next, did you run away if it was in the street etc...?)
c) If you do this regularly (that was - stunning people by hitting them in the face making them compliant in some way) how often, who, and do you use protective gear?

3) And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?



...

4) What has happened when you've kicked someone in the nuts? Simple question. No Bullshido word games (whatever they may be - I have about 11 posts on Bullshido).

5) Have you ever kicked someone full on in the nuts?
No Bullshido word games: it's a yes/no answer.

6) Which part of this did you disagree with? I'm open to discussion. (The 'this' can be found in the previously quoted post).

Cheers! :)

[Mr Punch]

Are this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey5hpdSHs0Y),
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gjfq3Y6hwU),
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tKPtiWm8tE), and
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZMI6-AhM18) your dojo?

I'm gonna be original here and call them clips 1, 2, 3 and 4, because I have a few questions.

About vid 1:

1) This guy is an eleven-year trainer going for sandan. Would you say this is typical of eleven years and sandan for your school?

2) He said on another site he was tired from two hours of hardcore practice beforehand. Would that have been/included randori?

About vids 1 and 2:

3) Does the randori come before this kind of stuff or after?

About vid 3:

4) Is this typical of the randori you practise?

About vid 4:

5) I know you didn't name this (did you? You're not 'Bash' are you, who posted those vids?) but does Nikura Sensei teach this as judo, or as aikido, or as aikijujutsu or what?

6) Was he taught that by Ueshiba?

7) Do you do that in randori (by which I mean with someone else trying to submit you, not the definition of randori seen in clip 3)?

8) Do you ever do that against other schools, jujutsu or whatever, friendly seminars or comps or whatever?

About all the vids:

9) I didn't see any blood or puke. Do you do that after class or is it a warm-up?


OK, OK, so before you go apoplectic - the last one was a gag! :D

[WinterPalm]

I think we have already that what you consider effective training and what I consider effective training are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think you need to edit that one for grammer or missing words or something. Also I do not think the divide is that big...I think some of the stuff you've spoken of is realistic and reasonable...not all of it is purely silly nonsense.

[Mr Punch]

"Ignoramus" is a noun. You used it as an adjective.Technically, as English is primarily a syntactic language rather than a strictly grammatical one, you can use any noun as an adjective by placing it in front of another noun.

E.g. shoe shop

It is sometimes a little clumsy, and sometimes simply very unnatural. I think in this case his use was OK, and I think that's the least of his worries, grammatically and everything else!

:D

[Mr Punch]

I think you need to edit that one for grammer or missing words or something. What is this, grammar nazi day or something?! :D


I think we have already that what you consider effective training and what I consider effective training are at opposite ends of the spectrum.Taking 'have' to mean 'comprehend', 'agree on' or 'hold true' that is a perfectly reasonable sentence, though an 'it' after the have would be better.

Now can we get back to the bullsh!t aikido please! :p

[Knifefighter]

I think you need to edit that one for grammer or missing words or something. Also I do not think the divide is that big...I think some of the stuff you've spoken of is realistic and reasonable...not all of it is purely silly nonsense.

You are correct regarding the missing word... the missing word of the day is ESTABLISHED. As in we have already ESTABLISHED that I think everything you do is pure, silly nonsense.


"Ignoramus" is a noun. You used it as an adjective.

Do not challenge Mr. Punch on English usage, as we have already ESTABLISHED that he is an English teacher.

[Knifefighter]

About vid 4:
5) I know you didn't name this (did you? You're not 'Bash' are you, who posted those vids?) but does Nikura Sensei teach this as judo, or as aikido, or as aikijujutsu or what?


Vid 4 is extremely god-awful ground work.

LOL @ anybody actually tapping from that choke on that half-assed guard pass, passing under the leg way up by the ankle, flipping over to the foot lock from underneath a mounted choke , putting on a foot lock way up on the calf, and the world's loosest knee bars & arm bars.

Techs done by someone who is proficient on the ground against a non resisting partner will be crisp, tight, and technically sound... there was nothing like that on that particular clip.

Whoever is teaching those guys groundwork at that school should not be doing so.

[rogue]

A lot of excellent things in Aikido, but real world application isn't one of them. I used to be in awe of Akikdoka until I trained with some and realized that it was easy to screw up their technique. The guys I trained with had a lot of trouble with jabs, various kicks to their legs and something as simple as stepping on their foot took them out of their game.

The reason I was training with a couple of Aikido black belts is that they realized it was flawed as a self defense art and were looking for things to fix their problem. I believe they eventually settled into a FMA school.

[Mr Punch]

Vid 4 is extremely god-awful ground work.That was my conclusion but I wasn't going to say anything about it until we'd heard from the frothing guy.

That kind of randori and grading were the reasons I quit regular aikido. Sure they have their place, but past ikkyu/shodan they should be abandoned IMO.

[Knifefighter]

That was my conclusion but I wasn't going to say anything about it until we'd heard from the frothing guy.

That kind of randori and grading were the reasons I quit regular aikido. Sure they have their place, but past ikkyu/shodan they should be abandoned IMO.

That's not the supposed badass, full-on "kick em in the nuts police" place is it?

[Mr Punch]

It seems to be the same sensei (Nikura, HL said, right? May be some more Nikuras out there but it isn't such a common name and the description given fits). Maybe he was having a quiet day.

[Sifu Darkfist]

O- Sensei absolutley spent a great deal of time in the southern part of china some in fukien and also guanzhou.
The story is that he trained Chinna as well as tai ji
However at this time bagua was a closed art reservered for bodyguards or extremely reliable Chinese individuals as well as family training.

The resemblence to bagua is easily explained, all chinese martial arts come from the same mother to quote my Grand master. Tai JI and Bagua have similar movements in many areas.

THe biggest difference between bagua and Aikido is that bagua is and can be very aggressive and offensive were is true Aikido is defensive to the core. The epitome of the gentlemens self defense. I for one (from experience) think it is an admirable art. Do i like it as much as in your face baji? of course not
I do not have a defensive bone in my body.
I believe in destroy the target before it proliferates.

of course i am sure no one else will agree so it really does not matter.

[Mr Punch]

O- Sensei absolutley spent a great deal of time in the southern part of china some in fukien and also guanzhou.
The story is that he trained Chinna as well as tai jiWhose story?


However at this time bagua was a closed art reservered for bodyguards or extremely reliable Chinese individuals as well as family training.So again, what makes you think that Chinese masters in tai chi or chin-na would want to teach the invaders of their country aspects of fighting? Especially given the conquerors' war record.


The resemblence to bagua is easily explained, all chinese martial arts come from the same mother to quote my Grand master. Tai JI and Bagua have similar movements in many areas.That's the resemblance of tai chi or chin na to bagua? Or are you talking about aikido?


THe biggest difference between bagua and Aikido...apart from the footwork, the power generation, the basic principles...
is that ... true Aikido is defensive to the core. No it isn't! That was my point before. Of course it depends on your definition of 'true' aikido: if you mean the watered-down non-martial aikido of today, you may have a point, but pre-war aikido was based on the old koryu meaning of 'aiki': i.e. that aiki is the equilibrium to be destroyed (by kuzushi). Nothing to do with the harmonization of your spirit with your attacker's. And it was not defensive. Look at Yoshinkan (which I'm not particularly fond of but it's an example of aikido based on the earlier pre-war model of aiki from Ueshiba): everything starts with a strike/attack to provoke a defensive response in uke, which is then used to get kuzushi.

And not only in yoshinkan, but in all forms of aiki, Ueshiba insisted that you should step straight in and take your opponent's centre, and only if that attacking motion was prevented/blocked/jammed in some way should you resort to the more familiar to layman evasive footwork and circular hand techniques.


The epitome of the gentlemens self defense.Well, maybe, but I don't really believe in gentlemen as my countrymen are still supposed to epitomize gentlemen to many countries around the world and I've never seen much evidence of them actually existing! Do you have video evidence!? :D


of course i am sure no one else will agree so it really does not matter.Maybe it doesn't really matter, but thanks for the discussion anyway.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am pretty sure that i have several years of pain preceding your interest in a clash.

ANd i think O-sensei is right in many regards, however i will reply that your post is just plain confrontational and does not address issues that deal with modern combat.

If O-Sensei said that go in is the rule then i stand corrected.
If he had no problem with DESTROYING the target before proliferation than i submit.

Otherwise Know that i train AiKIdo to augment my throws the same as i train Ju Jitsu and Wrestling for the ground

As for bagua it is far more aggressive than Aikido, this i stll maintain

[Mr Punch]

I am pretty sure that i have several years of pain preceding your interest in a clash.I've no idea what this means! :confused:


ANd i think O-sensei is right in many regards, however i will reply that your post is just plain confrontational and does not address issues that deal with modern combat.Er, I think he was right in many regards too. Why is my post confrontational? I've got no beef with you: you expressed some opinions and I asked you some questions to clarify some things I wasn't sure about. Another day on the discussion forums! And how does my post not deal with 'modern combat'?


If O-Sensei said that go in is the rule then i stand corrected.
If he had no problem with DESTROYING the target before proliferation than i submit.Of course, Ueshiba's life was a continuum, so if I do say that that was his philosophy, I'm out of necessity discarding contradicting things he said afterwards, which is why obviously people have a lot of different opinions regarding what he said and the nature of aikido in general and his specifically.

But, from the days (pre war when he went to Iwama if my chronology's right) when his aikido was practical as an MA he said things about going straight in, although even then he shied away from such expression as 'destroy' AFAIK. After the war, as his aiki and philosophy got softer and softer, and it's then that I think, under most people's definitions, that aiki became something other than an MA.


Otherwise Know that i train AiKIdo to augment my throws the same as i train Ju Jitsu and Wrestling for the groundGood for you.


As for bagua it is far more aggressive than Aikido, this i stll maintainQuite probably, yes.

[Cheng oi]

Through my studies I have found that Aikido and Bagua have many similar aspects to them. I am aware of the history surrounding both arts and the stories about the basis for aikido being in Bagua( ??true or not??)I was wondering what you all thought about this ?



that one style of BaguaZhang is like Aikido - I think - but I don't know very much about Aikido

[Cheng oi]

I'll be doing Bagua

[Sima Rong]

Aikido theoretically should be possible for almost anyone...however, as it involves a lot of kneeling techniques, it may not be so good for you.
Ueshiba had kung fu. His training was very hardcore, and changed later on due to his age and spiritual beliefs.

[Cheng oi]

Aikido theoretically should be possible for almost anyone...however, as it involves a lot of kneeling techniques, it may not be so good for you.
Ueshiba had kung fu. His training was very hardcore, and changed later on due to his age and spiritual beliefs.

I have to do everything in a slow Qigong fashion
Taiji is perfect for me - But I am committing to Baguazhang as well as Tai Chi - it doesn't leave any time for anything else

only Chinese martial arts for me - The Gods have spoken

[Golden Arms]

Ueshiba trained was trained in Daito Ryu by Takeda Sokaku prior to his founding Aikido. High level Daito Ryu methods very much embody the type of skills that he was famous for, and they have some overlap with Tai Chi and Bagua in how the body is used and how things are explained. Although it is possible that Ueshiba saw or trained a bit of one of these Chinese arts, there was no need to for him to learn the type of material he appears to have practiced his whole life, it is all right there in Takeda Sokaku's art.

[Alex Córdoba]

Have to look around for a clip, but there is footage of an American with NO TRAINING asking one of Ueshiba's top students to fight him, in the subsequent match, one of the TOP GUYS in Aikido couldn't do a darn thing to a guy with NO TRAINING... very well documented. If I find the clip, all the better of course


After all this years.. I would like to see this video.

[LaterthanNever]

it's a shame the late Sensei David J. Harris is not alive to answer your question. He studied: Aikido, Aikijitsu, Ba Gua..and also Tai Ji, Hsing Yi, ****o-Ryu Karate, Red Boat Wing Chun and perhaps a half a dozen other arts.

They were all one in the same to him(after studying them for close to half a century). He internalized it to the point where what he did on his opponents didnt even seem human!!