The DEATH TOUCH

[wolfkiller]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061114/hl_hsn/sportschestprotectorsdontfullyprotectyounghearts

Does this prove that the Kung fu death touch is real?

[Pork Chop]

I posted a link describing this same condition of a potentially fatal blow to the chest being due to timing a few years ago but it didn't sway the old argument at all.

From experience, heart punches and liver shots really do hurt and take all the steam out of you.

[The Willow Sword]

Death Touch is just that mythical fantastical explanation of what the "Heart Punch" is in my opinion. I mean in certain forms there are Heart punches. There is also the pressure point just below the arm pit that is supposed to disrupt the heart beat and create that ventrical fibrilation. If one was struck hard enough in that area and of course in the chest, the same thing occurs. I dont buy into the Dim mak literal "touches" that would facilitate death. But i certainly buy into a full force strike to the chest or under the armpit( Heart1 is the meridian point just below the arm pit).

Peace, TWS

[Ben Gash]

Wow, chest trauma kills. Who'd have thought :rolleyes:
This cannot be Dim Mak because A)You need to make contact during the heart's repolarisation phase, and unless you're fighting someone on a cardiac monitor there's no way to know, and B) you need to deliver at least 50 joules of energy, which is far from a small touch, and C) Specific location isn't THAT important, anywhere from the right sternal border to the apex will probably do it.

[Ben Gash]

Anyway, if you're going to strike to the chest you'll more likely want to use as much force as you can, to cause much more reliably fatal effects such as flail chest, tension pneumothorax, thoracic aorta rupture, cardiac contusion or cardiac tamponade, or deviated sternal fracture, all of which simply result from a very hard blow to the chest. Then VF is just a bonus ;)

[Pork Chop]

...to cause much more reliably fatal effects such as flail chest, tension pneumothorax, thoracic aorta rupture, cardiac contusion or cardiac tamponade, or deviated sternal fracture, all of which simply result from a very hard blow to the chest. Then VF is just a bonus ;)

Throw in damage caused by liver & kidney shots and you'll see why I love body shots. :D

[bodhitree]

Trauma to the body's vital areas can cause injury or death, nah:rolleyes:

[Yum Cha]

Death Touch -

An old girlfriend of mine told me her mother told her everytime she "touched herself" a puppy died.

Does that count?

[Pork Chop]

Death Touch -

An old girlfriend of mine told me her mother told her everytime she "touched herself" a puppy died.

Does that count?

LOL

http://web2.airmail.net/pirate/god-kills-kitten2.jpg

man i miss bein able to post images....

[PaiLumDreamer]

DIM MAK!!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

I would wager that a good deal of you have studied, or know someone who has studied this system of pressure points. My instructor does, and every once in a while he will hold a class with a few strikes that everyone can take part in and only result in "recoverable effects".

I have heard stories of people being KO'ed by these same techniques but thrown in a different order/speed/adding a move in but I have never seen or experienced a knock out.

I have been disoriented to the point where I wobble around, feeling a jolt from my head to toes, etc, but nothing major.

My question is: Do strikes actually exist that will cause delayed/immediate death? (Nerve strikes on the torso, etc, in a certain order. I understand people can die from being hit too hard/vital organs/whatever - I'm talking specifically about Dim Mak/Nerve related striking methods.)

If so, how do you guys know that :eek:??????? Has anyone actually seen anyone die because of this stuff? I doubt it.

Something I realized: Someone shows you a bunch of moves that DO work and that produce pretty painful effects, and then they say "Well, these will kill someone, so don't actually do them on anyone!" Because we have seen something that works, and then are told this is the same ****, we would assume it would also work and therefore a series of moves that has never been tested is formed into this myth of a death touch.

I have no training in nerve strikes/dim mak other than maybe three moves. Anyone with training, please correct me, but I'm very curious what people have been told regarding this stuff.

[Notintheface]

Please make the bad man go away!!!!!!!!:(

[Shaolinlueb]

oh my god. i dont even know how to reply to this.

dim mak is "a lot" of myth and legend.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know, I suspect the delayed "Death Touch" Is just when guys die later from internal injuries that cannot be seen from the outside.

It could be days, or even weeks if an infection spreads slowly.

Back then, they couldn't see the actual damage like we can today.

In Modern times, I think someone who is hurt bad will be taken to a hospital where we will find he has a ruptured Kidney and it will be properly treated ASAP, so the patient does not actually die anymore.

[Black Jack II]

Ahhh dim mak......heh.

Since now we have modern medical science we can see how this type of mythos takes effect. Information people did not have before they started to codify what would now become a long string of bullsh!t.

Can you kill someone in a delayed manner, ah you sure can, but it will not be by your own choosing because you jerked off on a couple of merdians, it will be the luck of the draw.

Severe contusion of the cartoid view my result in thrombosis and due to the vessel wall spasm could result in a restriction in blood flow, which could result in cerebral thrombosis and death. Same with damage to the Vagus Nerve which controls the actions of hear contraction and lung constriction or a damaged Hypoglossal Nerve which is the main nerve of the tongue could become inflamed and lead to suffocation and death.

Medical data like this is all over for people to find but its through serious damage to the human body, shock which btw is the big killer or getting in a very lucky shot on that specific day. People can survive a massive amount of damage and yet some actually still believe an old chinese guy can do the touch of the dragon and you fall dead at a later date.

[Shaolinlueb]

i've seen people swipe there pointer and middle finger across someones chest (finger prints down) and create heavy bruising when they did it to someone.

what is it? idk. is it dim mak? no.

[PaiLumDreamer]

What exactly are meridians in the modern day medical sense? I have very limited knowledge on this stuff, and I have not done much research. Only repeating things I remember reading/hearing.




Maybe the people who were finger-brushed were prone to bruising? :confused:

[Water Dragon]

What exactly are meridians in the modern day medical sense? I have very limited knowledge on this stuff, and I have not done much research. Only repeating things I remember reading/hearing.




There's no western correlation. Meridians and qi flow are a distinct entity that does not exist in western medicine.

[xcakid]

You know, I suspect the delayed "Death Touch" Is just when guys die later from internal injuries that cannot be seen from the outside.



Yeah, I agree with that. I mean you can hit someone hard enough break a rib and have it puncture an organ and just bleed out. All the Jow and herbal poultice back in the day ain't gonna fix it.

However, I have been shown pressure point strikes that worked on me. Prof Nick Cerios for one. I was his punching dummy for a demo and man I tell ya. My arms were numb on a few of the strikes he demonstrated.

[jdhowland]

The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations. Many people have tried to learn TCM and recreate dim mak systems based on accupoint, meridian and 5-element theories. My sifu is a professional accupunturist (learned from white crane master Ng Siu Jung). He warned that this simplistic application switch does not work. After all, there are also deep points that may be affected by a strike that are not accessible to needles. It's like going on a bombing mission using the wrong charts. In training I have been floored by a slap to my shoulder (and I was dumb enough to get up and ask to have it repeated). I have experienced "sealing the breath" when my sifu's son placed his thumbs under my ribs. I have taught and experienced "white outs" or mild KO's that stimulate the optic nerve many times. I have performed knockouts using peck cheui to the cubital fossa (CLF does this a lot)--the effect is unexpected but does that make it dim mak? Sure, it does. But a "death touch"--no way. I explain it by the mechanical effect it has on the fascia leading to the cervical plexus. A generation or two back it might have been explained using jing-luo concepts. One more point and I promise I'll shut up. Don't trust reflex charts if you want to develop your own system. Reflexes are statistical events that don't work the same on everyone and they can be be turned off in certain conditions. The modern tendency is to avoid speaking of reflexes as if they are anatomical constructs and to think in terms of synergistic relationships.
Peace, everyone.

[Shaolinlueb]

Maybe the people who were finger-brushed were prone to bruising? :confused:


he isnt prone to bruising at all.

[Dragonzbane76]

Dim Mak.... sigh...drawn out and long.

Isn't that something you wipe you butt with...??? :D


Serious....

Myth... bull crap.... doesn't work like people think it does.

[Becca]

Very nicely put. But it reads better with the paragrphs deliniated, me thinks...


The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations.

Many people have tried to learn TCM and recreate dim mak systems based on accupoint, meridian and 5-element theories. My sifu is a professional accupunturist (learned from white crane master Ng Siu Jung). He warned that this simplistic application switch does not work. After all, there are also deep points that may be affected by a strike that are not accessible to needles. It's like going on a bombing mission using the wrong charts.

In training I have been floored by a slap to my shoulder (and I was dumb enough to get up and ask to have it repeated). I have experienced "sealing the breath" when my sifu's son placed his thumbs under my ribs. I have taught and experienced "white outs" or mild KO's that stimulate the optic nerve many times. I have performed knockouts using peck cheui to the cubital fossa (CLF does this a lot)--the effect is unexpected but does that make it dim mak?

Sure, it does. But a "death touch"--no way. I explain it by the mechanical effect it has on the fascia leading to the cervical plexus. A generation or two back it might have been explained using jing-luo concepts.

One more point and I promise I'll shut up. Don't trust reflex charts if you want to develop your own system. Reflexes are statistical events that don't work the same on everyone and they can be be turned off in certain conditions. The modern tendency is to avoid speaking of reflexes as if they are anatomical constructs and to think in terms of synergistic relationships.
Peace, everyone.

[PangQuan]

Very nicely put.

+1

i am the ninja letters you should not be seeing.

[SanSoo Student]

Wasn't there a guy called dimmakmaster around here some time ago?

[brothernumber9]

dimmakseminar

[Goldenmane]

The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations.

That's probably the best I've ever seen that put.

I've been arguing that point for years, but never managed to get it across so succinctly.

[Edit 2: same basic argument goes for "qi"]

[jdhowland]

[Edit 2: same basic argument goes for "qi"]



Good point!

[RonH]

My question is: Do strikes actually exist that will cause delayed/immediate death? (Nerve strikes on the torso, etc, in a certain order. I understand people can die from being hit too hard/vital organs/whatever - I'm talking specifically about Dim Mak/Nerve related striking methods.)

When using the energetic variant of dim mak, any point on the body can be used.


Something I realized: Someone shows you a bunch of moves that DO work and that produce pretty painful effects, and then they say "Well, these will kill someone, so don't actually do them on anyone!" Because we have seen something that works, and then are told this is the same ****, we would assume it would also work and therefore a series of moves that has never been tested is formed into this myth of a death touch.

You're also told not to do certain physical moves against someone unless you want to seriously hurt/kill them. Do you go around testing to see if they will be hurt or killed if you do them?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dim Mak points work, to what extent they do in combat is still up for debate.

I have always viewed Dim Mak as something along the lines of "aim big, miss big, aim small, miss small", maybe its the Sniper in me :D

I don't think that anyone doubts the effect of a well placed strike on the temple, and there have been a few deaths from strikes to the chest, BUT, the problem is doing them under LESS than ideal circumstances such as when someone is trying to rip you a new arse hole.

Boxing is full of "dim mak" strikes, so is MT and even BJJ has "cavity presses", they just call them chokes :D

There is a fine line that is walked between the reality and the BS of Dim Mak, the good part is that common sense can keep the BS of your shoes.

[David Jamieson]

I think the problem exists mainly in westerners failure to understand taht wuxia novels are the equivalent of superhero comic books.

so delayed death touch is as real as shooting webs out your wrists afetr being bitten by either radioactive or genetically manipulated spiders.

just saying.

now, having said that, you already know the effects of some types of point strikes by your own description of being wobbled, but then, some people wobble easily and others have higher capacities for pain, so there is nothing definitive on teh subject and there is tons of bullsquat about it.

using common sense, the equation is not hard to surmise.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think the problem exists mainly in westerners failure to understand taht wuxia novels are the equivalent of superhero comic books.

Yep....people watch to much TV and have a vivid imagination.

[golden arhat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBpj9IfES38

heres a pseudo scientific vid about dim mak tho it is of cours only looking at ninjutsu's technique

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuV4sfeuROw

Read the complete article in The Death Touch By Gene Ching with Gigi Oh in our JAN+FEB 2017 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1329).

[Chief_Suicide]

.... never turn off the camera!

[GeneChing]

Is the Death Touch real? READ Dim Mak and Qi: Martial Arts Enigmas Part 1 (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1627) by Phil Humphries

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/1371_Dim-Mak1_Lead.jpg

[GeneChing]

More on the Death Touch... READ Dim Mak and Qi: Martial Arts Enigmas Part 2 (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1628) by Phil Humphries

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/5687_Dim-Mak2_Lead.jpg